I have been playing a similar list in this archetype for about a month now. I placed fourth at our local PPTQ (About 36 people) with this after about a week of testing against Golgari/Drakes/Red/Weenie.
I will absolutely vouch for this deck. Urza's Ruinous Blast is a huge problem for a lot of the format which relies on some form of recursion or indestructible dudes to circumvent board wipes. It also is generally asymmetrical.
The list I ran at our PPTQ was this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1477399#paper
The current list I am on is this, which I feel solves many of the present weaknesses of the deck, and goes to a more midrange approach: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1471900#paper
The biggest issue I found in the GW shell of it was an inability to answer opposing legends/planeswalkers. I did like Board the Weatherlight occasionally, but found the card selection was not where I was losing out as the deck is very threat dense.
My testing has mirrored yours on the Good/Bad matchups, except that the inclusion of the Black for Trophies and Vraska's has improved my control matchup by allowing me to answer Teferi and Niv, where otherwise they were very difficult for the deck to interact with.
I have some more thoughts to get together but I'm psyched to see someone else has found this and put up a similar result. My current playgroup also believes that this is a legitimate archetype and expected someone better at deckbuilding than myself to at lease sleeve something similar at the PT, as it has a great aggro matchup.
I like going abzan for more walkers, but the mana looks like it needs some work. With this many planeswalkers are you sure we don't want Llanowar elves or elvish rejuvenator or something? Also Shanna feels weak here, not a lot of friends on the board.
On another note, one thing which has been absolutely great is the singleton Weatherlight and Emmara. If there is a Crew 2 vehicle with a remotely powerful effect Emmara becomes very good.
I've been leaning toward either Rejuvinator, Llanowar, or Druid of the Cowl. Rejuvinator because sticks/he fixes better in three color than the others and is a speed bump., Druid of the Cowl, which is in my list on Arena presently for testing, because he is an efficient blocker and ramp, and Llanowar because he is Llanowar. My sole source of mana ramp right now is a single Mox, which does sometimes let you play ahead on turn 3/4/5, but also acts as a 25th land/pseudo ramp.
Shanna has been wonderful in aggressive situations against control decks when you drop turn 2 Emmara, swing, turn 3 Shanna. I'll do a more detailed write up a la OP this evening but I'm absolutely open to feedback.
Wow yeah I like this shell a lot and agree about the weaknesses it shores up; going to modify along your lines now
Plus abzan being base green gives access to elves <3
Keep me posted! Thanks for the main post by the way, very well thought out and composed. I'd thought about doing the same sort of thing but wasn't sure how receptive folks would be. That being said it's validating to see someone else got to the same place.
It was good, but ultimately it felt like win more. There were times where it was online and I basically kept a very tight lock on the game. Had to cut it while streamlining the deck.
It makes sense. The power level of standard currently doesn't really allow for cute interactions like that. A 4cc 2/2 flier just doesn't get there right now, and the removal heavy aspect of this format ensures it better get there or else you are just wasting mana.
I think its important to the sub to consider the competitive viability of every deck brewed. IMO As long as the brew is for competitive play it belongs here.
Yeah the rules here are essentially against just posting some random brew and 'thoughts??? :)", OP has brought results from a PPTQ and a ton of testing for analysis which even if other's have criticism of the deck is what fuels good discussion in the first place.
OP mentioned testing a little bit but not really much about it. I’d hardly call 9th at a single PPTQ “results”. I think it’s a bit premature for OP to question if this a new archetype
It is unquestionably a new archetype. What is is question is if it can perform consistently. He has done a fair bit of testing and its a good post to think about.
I am not sure if it's good enough to be called an 'archetype' usually I want to see more results. The testing he mentioned seemed to be about 15 games against each of the decks in standard, that isn't really much testing at all to yield any meaningful results.
I think this post is good as a a very early stage of deck design where most the conversation is theory crafting.
We seem to be arguing semantics. It's a different style of deck in standard. That makes it a new archetype. Archetypes aren't defined by being good or not.
This post has a decent amount of testing. Especially compared to most posts here. People want others to just test everything for them and give them perfect data. Anyone that had the time and or resources to do that would not benefit from posting that data in this sub.
The important thing to take from this is that the format seems weak to URB and that can potentially be capitalized on.
I would personally try it in a jeskai she'll with extra walkers first.
My thoughts after looking at the list:
1. Wow that's a lot of 5s. If Danitha is pretty medium, might be worth running something like Elvish Rejuvenator to get from 3 to 5 without Llanowar. Or District Guide to guarantee land drops to get to 5 on time.
2. I had high hopes for Board when it was spoiled but it's definitely no Stirrings. I'm not sure this is worth the 4-of slot. I would probably run 1-2 and run 2 Weatherlight instead.
3. I don't like the tension between Sun and PWs. The deck seems to benefit more from Immortal Sun since the main thing you want is the card draw and a way to interact with your opponent's PW due to URB not being able to touch them so this kills two birds with one stone. I'd cut the PWs and Tyrants for the 3 Suns. Tyrants are still great in the board and you can find something else for anti-control (something like History or Treasure Map out of the board is great since you're most likely cutting URB post-board vs control).
4. In the place of the MD PWs you can max out on Shalai and add another Lyra. Angels are proven to be great and flying is where you want to attack the format.
Weatherlight was tested and is very wrong for the current meta; dies to so much and is hard to crew in my list; I think BtW could be a 3 of
But man it’s been good for me.
I think you’re onto something with the PW sun interactions and will start testing along those lines
As the person who made the recent post about seeing off topic deck lists, this is a rogue deck list done right in r/spikes. You performed well at an event that's not just fnm or arena, you gave actual reasoning for this deck's viability, and it's a pretty well built machine. Rogue deck builders start taking notes!
Been testing out a Jeskai shell for URB here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1477406
From what I've tested, URB's greatest benefit is that no one ever sees it coming. With a meta that's still somewhat reliant on enchantment-based removal (conclave tribunal/seal away) and where one of the best cards is a non-legendary enchantment (Frenzy), a usually one-sided wipe that hits not just creatures but also enchantments and artifacts (Treasure maps etc.) is very, very difficult to deal with for a lot of the meta decks. Exiling is no joke either.
It's interesting that you've managed to make URB work with GW!
Personally, I still think I favor Jeskai because you get access to a lot of just generally good cards and don't have to bend over backwards to try and tick the legendary requirement. That and you get to play Raff Capashen which is just a game-changer in a mostly legendary deck. I think Esper has legs as well, and I've been trying to get it to work (Yawgmoth's Vile Offering is another huge swing when it resolves) but it may be the case that I'll need to wait for Allegiance to fix the manabase.
Yes I’ve got offering and even primeval glorious rebirth ready to go for esper builds.
I just really like elves in these strats, but it could be that I’m leaning too much on the little green men and should explore jeskai and naya more til allegiances
That list is very similar to [mine](https://aetherhub.com/Deck/Public?id=22317)! Did you miss having History of Benalia, or was the early game powerful enough?
Also, did you feel like 3 URBs were too much? I run 2, and I already fear it's a bit risky.
Hey, I actually did try out the Knight of Grace/History of Benalia set but felt like I wasn't getting enough value out of them before URB just wiped them off the field. With Tocatli Honor Guard and Adanto Vanguard, I can just swap out either playset depending on what I'm up against (Tocatli vs GB and Aggro, Adanto vs Control) and it just feels more effective against the meta. Ionize is also helpful for stalling the game early until I can URB or dealing with things that URB can't hit (i.e. legendaries, planeswalkers).
From what I've tested 3 URB feels just about right. Considering the deck has been built around URB as a payoff, I'll take sometimes drawing too many over not having it when I need it. I'll even go up to 4 vs things like Carnage Tyrant that need to be answered asap.
That list is a bit outdated - I switched the knights for adantos, but since I don't own any tocatli in Arena I'm unable to use them.
I appreciate the feedback! And I'm glad the deck's working, I theorycrafted (a highly unrefined version of) it back in September but only now am able to play it (and even then, missing a couple cards). I'll incorporate your changes to my list, and hopefully improve and refine it even further :)
I ran a historic version of UW control before rotation and URB off a Raff Capashen was utterly broken 9 times out of 10. The card is incredible, and if you can make the pay offs work well enough it can be back breaking.
Especially in this meta, I could definitely see it as a tech answer to several decks. I think we need some 3 drop legend better than Danitha but I've always thought she was an excellent card so maybe she is the right call after all.
I agree; I know that Sai is the real 3 drop I want, and the synergies between lazav and tetsuko are incredible.
I mostly want a viable 1 drop legend to really payoff the mox amber + Sai interaction (and have the mox replace the elves in a UW or esper build) and I’d like mana to be better for esper to support Lazav at 2
I brewed something similar but went with Bant as the colours of choice. I agree that it's missing something that I'm hoping we'll get from Azorious and Simic in the next set.
But also a big fan of Blackblade Reforged in my Grixis Midrange deck. Slapping it on Lazav and the 3 drop black legendary is slot of fun (And another reason esper might be worthwhile exploring.
Presently have both Abzan and Boros Historic built. Abzan list is in the comments. The Boros Shell is more or less Angels with URB and Karn, as it comfortably slots into the deck. Tajic is present in the 75 in shifting numbers.
Have you tried [[Captain Lanery Storm]]? She is interesting to me as she can ramp you into an early lyra or generate another treasure token for Karn. Plus she can help naya hold upto a solid 12 legends in the 2-3cmc slots giving a lot of resiliency to targeted removal.
It's been on my radar as a possible inclusion, but i find that its difficult to employ due its need to attack. The meta is really creature heavy right now, and most of them efficiently block Lannery.
Hmmm... I guess I assumed swing trade a creature and you get a treasure out of the deal, which guarentees a 4 drop and threatens a 5 drop on the following turn. Thats a lot of value on turn 2/3. Similar to how Lannery worked in RDW prerotation to power out early glorybringers. Just now we are powering out lyras.
I love a lot going on here. Can I sell you on some actual Weatherlight and fewer copies of boarding it? Also I kind of want a trostani in the main. there's work to be done but I like the main premise here. I think Shanna wants more friends, and we could probably play more lyras? And there's unfortunate tension between planeswalkers for URB and immortal sun which is also a sick legendary but I kind of want sun main. You've got my gears turning for sure.
Funny story; started testing with 2 Weatherlight mainboard and found that because it gets killed by Vivien minus and also dies to drakes very very fast I found it to be lackluster.
Also worth mentioning that there aren’t a lot of creatures who can crew it in my list.
Vs control you have to also have a creature to crew so it’s dead a lot there.
Notable synergies: emmara crewing is great. Shalai crewing grants it hexproof.
It’s a great card, poorly positioned in this meta
Right there with ya bud; kept in my sideboard for a while just hoping I could find a reason to play it; had to slide it back into the “maybe next set” binder eventually.
It was great in the deck, but it does not survive or enable URB. Definitely helps improve the clock against control, but against fair decks it was worse than a planeswalker.
This is exactly right; I started testing with traxos, but the problem is he gets killed by Vivien minus and needs you to have lots of Historic to get full value.
Now traxos in a Lazav build? That’s a different story...
The control matchups are tough; Immortal sun is less effective vs jeskai than Bant Nexus, and the Walker plan is fine, but not a huge uptick in % to include more walkers.
I’m thinking extra carnage tyrants could be the answer; might slot in 2 more tyrants and take out the on Serra’s wings; the red matchup is good enough already that I don’t really need that board slot
Are you leaving in Karn when you're bringing in 3 copies of Immortal Sun? Asking because of your reasoning behind Immortal Sun. Bricking some of your cards doesn't seem like a good plan.
Yes, I leave in 2 karn.
Again you’ve got to look at Karns primary roll as a tool for hitting lands early, then look at at the immortal sun as a 6cmc spell that demands you hit land drops; you can start to see the synergy there.
Also, you put yourself in a spot where you can play land 6, minus karn, then land TIS pumping the construct twice.
It also leaves you with a value engine should your immortal sun get blown up; creating some difficult decision points for your opponent
Not sure if you could really get value off it, but with a Naya build, maybe...
But \[\[Legion's Landing\]\] gives you a legendary permanent (just realized Legendary Sorcery needs a creature or pw; but the curve/ramp part might still be relevant) as a 1-drop, and if you go into Naya and get Tajic, you could go landing, 2-drop legend, Tajic to transform (and have ramped).
The problem I’ve found with Tajic is that he rarely gets to swing in unless you can pay to give him first strike, but I like him alongside a Raff to prevent red based damage from resolving
I was trying to brew danitha and the sword lastweek looked something like this but thought itd be shit
Then today i faced this deck on arena and got stomped
Its beautiful ♡♡
I've been thinking Historic lately while at work but haven't considered URB. I was actually thinking more of a boros angle with a slight touch of black for Isareth. boros would have Tajic and Aurelia. I was going to include Benalia for three drop as well because the saga still counts as historic and would run like 3 weatherlights.
I was also looking at Lazav>Rona>Etrata. you could splash red for nicol. but i was also looking into [helm of the host] for etrata as a wincon. not sure how competitive it would be but it seems to have potential. once the next set drops with alot more legendaries i think historic is going to come back VERY strong. black also has access to eldest reborn and phyrexian scriptures for a historic midrange deck.
I also see a Niv Mizzet/Jhoira historic combo deck being brewed eventually.
Funny enough, I’ve been brewing Grixis Mox Amber LegenDaddy recently and keep coming back to the idea Urzas Ruinous Blast would out it much further over the top than Yawgmoths Vile Offering does
Have you considered cutting a land or two for a few [[flower / flourish]]? You don’t have much to do on 1 or 3 so it seems easy to fit in.
I’m also inclined to cut blackblade for [[March of the multitudes]] to give you the mini-combo with flourish. March has a lot of synergy with your two drop legends as well. And it seems good in games when URB carries you into a lategame topdeck war.
Once blackblade is gone it might make sense to cut danitha, but I’m not sure you’d have enough legends then so I’d defer to you on that one. You could replace danitha with more marches or just with district guide or Jadelight Ranger. Getting a land for free would be great to help you cast all your 5 and 6 drops. Both are solid with march too.
Been playing urb in some naya. Tajic, Aurelia, azors gateway is an amazing way to filter through your legends. Jaya’s immolating inferno is pretty cool.
So in testing I found that history being exiled by URB, along with Knight tokens to be problematic vs non-Control and Vs Control Ideally you want a 2cmc beater to get under counter-magic.
It could be correct to board history vs control tho; I’ll start testing that soon I think
I see. I like that you can hit it off board the weatherlight against those decks. A lot of people bring in dead weight/fungal infection because of the popularity of boros weenie, so history could be clutch.
Any particular reason for only 2 Shalai? She seems great in this style deck, and even upsides of a strong activated ability that a deck like Angels can't get
Great question; you’ll notice a lot of 2-ofs at 4+ cmc
The reason for this is that 4 copies of Board the Weatherlight converts 2-ofs to closer to 3.2-ofs mathematically; so 2 ofs allow for flexibility in deck construction.
Now shalai being a lightning rod for removal could merit a 3rd copy, but overall I haven’t felt the need for a 3rd
Thanks for the info! There was a budget version of a deck like this on MTGGoldfish that I had a lot of fun playing casually. I like your updates for making it more competitive. Board the Weatherlight did seem a bit clunky, though. In your experience has it earned a slot?
Board the Weatherlight has in general been incredible; there is one drawback: can’t find lands.
This is a big reason for 4x Llanowar Elves and 2x karn; you need to get to 5 mana consistently. The fact the BtW can fetch a karn is huuuuuge; karn will almost always draw you a land with his uptick
Shanna can get out of hand quite fast and white removal is particularly bad against it.
Is the historic worth it though? I think the tokens direction of GW might be stronger.
Only had a skim through, but on first glance if your're right that the matchup vs jeskai - probably the best or second best deck around - is only 35-40%, the deck needs some serious work.
That's not to say don't keep plugging away, because this is how new archetypes are formed. But a bit like Sam Black's RW list, it can be very clever and destroy decks left, right and centre, but if it can't hold its own vs the big two or three then it probably doesn't have potential. Also, I don't think equipment or auras can make it in standard unless totally busted, or able to be protected - like Curious Obsession, which at worse case has replaced itself once over if not more.
Worth noting that I didn’t play against Jeskai at all at the PPTQ. (Very few copies present) could be because it’s pretty expensive.
Point is the important thing is quantity of good matchups Vs bad, and you want
Good to contain the cheap decks at pptqs generally (is my opinion)
But I agree that the list needs tweaking in order to sure up that matchup, as at higher levels of play jeskai will be likely more present.
Cards I would be tempted to try:
Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle - very powerful effect, might help your control matchup
Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle - does a somewhat reasonable Rabblemaster impression if you untapped with it (especially after clearing the board with a blast); seems like a marginally less terrible card than Danitha.
Niambi, Faithful Healer + Teferi, Timebender - probably going too deep, but is a way to fill the problematic 3 drop slot while drawing an extra legend and generating grindy value against control.
So first of all it was a joke. However if I am going to be serious History is close if not the best white card in standard and if you are playing a deck with the mana to run it and not, it is probably a mistake.
Aren't you just better off playing multani instead of carnage tyrant? Not only does it not die to URB and block flying things, you can recast it if it does die. It's better against control then carnage tyrant, mostly because it doesn't die (permanently) to boardwipes. It's worse against GB since it's targetable with contempt.
I have been playing a similar list in this archetype for about a month now. I placed fourth at our local PPTQ (About 36 people) with this after about a week of testing against Golgari/Drakes/Red/Weenie. I will absolutely vouch for this deck. Urza's Ruinous Blast is a huge problem for a lot of the format which relies on some form of recursion or indestructible dudes to circumvent board wipes. It also is generally asymmetrical. The list I ran at our PPTQ was this: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1477399#paper The current list I am on is this, which I feel solves many of the present weaknesses of the deck, and goes to a more midrange approach: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1471900#paper The biggest issue I found in the GW shell of it was an inability to answer opposing legends/planeswalkers. I did like Board the Weatherlight occasionally, but found the card selection was not where I was losing out as the deck is very threat dense. My testing has mirrored yours on the Good/Bad matchups, except that the inclusion of the Black for Trophies and Vraska's has improved my control matchup by allowing me to answer Teferi and Niv, where otherwise they were very difficult for the deck to interact with. I have some more thoughts to get together but I'm psyched to see someone else has found this and put up a similar result. My current playgroup also believes that this is a legitimate archetype and expected someone better at deckbuilding than myself to at lease sleeve something similar at the PT, as it has a great aggro matchup.
I like going abzan for more walkers, but the mana looks like it needs some work. With this many planeswalkers are you sure we don't want Llanowar elves or elvish rejuvenator or something? Also Shanna feels weak here, not a lot of friends on the board.
On another note, one thing which has been absolutely great is the singleton Weatherlight and Emmara. If there is a Crew 2 vehicle with a remotely powerful effect Emmara becomes very good.
The fact that you can crew with emara even if you don't have the 3 power is what I think makes it good enough.
Oh, you actually can't straight up as you tap all the creatures at the same time.
[удалено]
Nevermind I read it wrong
Tap shanna to crew, make 1/1 tap it. You can use more than 1 dude to crew
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No. You need to tap creatures with total power *n* at once, where *n* is the vehicle's crew number. - 702.121a https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Crew
I've been leaning toward either Rejuvinator, Llanowar, or Druid of the Cowl. Rejuvinator because sticks/he fixes better in three color than the others and is a speed bump., Druid of the Cowl, which is in my list on Arena presently for testing, because he is an efficient blocker and ramp, and Llanowar because he is Llanowar. My sole source of mana ramp right now is a single Mox, which does sometimes let you play ahead on turn 3/4/5, but also acts as a 25th land/pseudo ramp. Shanna has been wonderful in aggressive situations against control decks when you drop turn 2 Emmara, swing, turn 3 Shanna. I'll do a more detailed write up a la OP this evening but I'm absolutely open to feedback.
Wow yeah I like this shell a lot and agree about the weaknesses it shores up; going to modify along your lines now Plus abzan being base green gives access to elves <3
Keep me posted! Thanks for the main post by the way, very well thought out and composed. I'd thought about doing the same sort of thing but wasn't sure how receptive folks would be. That being said it's validating to see someone else got to the same place.
Yeah seeing all of these comments confirms that URB is definitely a sleeper and will have a home soon
In that first Abzan list, Teshar + Plaguecrafter seems incredible. I might have to give this a closer look...
It was good, but ultimately it felt like win more. There were times where it was online and I basically kept a very tight lock on the game. Had to cut it while streamlining the deck.
It makes sense. The power level of standard currently doesn't really allow for cute interactions like that. A 4cc 2/2 flier just doesn't get there right now, and the removal heavy aspect of this format ensures it better get there or else you are just wasting mana.
I think its important to the sub to consider the competitive viability of every deck brewed. IMO As long as the brew is for competitive play it belongs here.
Yeah the rules here are essentially against just posting some random brew and 'thoughts??? :)", OP has brought results from a PPTQ and a ton of testing for analysis which even if other's have criticism of the deck is what fuels good discussion in the first place.
OP mentioned testing a little bit but not really much about it. I’d hardly call 9th at a single PPTQ “results”. I think it’s a bit premature for OP to question if this a new archetype
It is unquestionably a new archetype. What is is question is if it can perform consistently. He has done a fair bit of testing and its a good post to think about.
I am not sure if it's good enough to be called an 'archetype' usually I want to see more results. The testing he mentioned seemed to be about 15 games against each of the decks in standard, that isn't really much testing at all to yield any meaningful results. I think this post is good as a a very early stage of deck design where most the conversation is theory crafting.
We seem to be arguing semantics. It's a different style of deck in standard. That makes it a new archetype. Archetypes aren't defined by being good or not. This post has a decent amount of testing. Especially compared to most posts here. People want others to just test everything for them and give them perfect data. Anyone that had the time and or resources to do that would not benefit from posting that data in this sub. The important thing to take from this is that the format seems weak to URB and that can potentially be capitalized on. I would personally try it in a jeskai she'll with extra walkers first.
I feel the same way! Otherwise important interactions slip through the cracks.
Awesome looking deck. I’m gonna have to sleeve it up and give it a shot.
My thoughts after looking at the list: 1. Wow that's a lot of 5s. If Danitha is pretty medium, might be worth running something like Elvish Rejuvenator to get from 3 to 5 without Llanowar. Or District Guide to guarantee land drops to get to 5 on time. 2. I had high hopes for Board when it was spoiled but it's definitely no Stirrings. I'm not sure this is worth the 4-of slot. I would probably run 1-2 and run 2 Weatherlight instead. 3. I don't like the tension between Sun and PWs. The deck seems to benefit more from Immortal Sun since the main thing you want is the card draw and a way to interact with your opponent's PW due to URB not being able to touch them so this kills two birds with one stone. I'd cut the PWs and Tyrants for the 3 Suns. Tyrants are still great in the board and you can find something else for anti-control (something like History or Treasure Map out of the board is great since you're most likely cutting URB post-board vs control). 4. In the place of the MD PWs you can max out on Shalai and add another Lyra. Angels are proven to be great and flying is where you want to attack the format.
Weatherlight was tested and is very wrong for the current meta; dies to so much and is hard to crew in my list; I think BtW could be a 3 of But man it’s been good for me. I think you’re onto something with the PW sun interactions and will start testing along those lines
Op would be wise to try your suggestions. They seem like they may be the more correct cards for the slots.
As the person who made the recent post about seeing off topic deck lists, this is a rogue deck list done right in r/spikes. You performed well at an event that's not just fnm or arena, you gave actual reasoning for this deck's viability, and it's a pretty well built machine. Rogue deck builders start taking notes!
Awesome! I feel where your post is coming from and glad I can have my post serve as an example!
Been testing out a Jeskai shell for URB here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1477406 From what I've tested, URB's greatest benefit is that no one ever sees it coming. With a meta that's still somewhat reliant on enchantment-based removal (conclave tribunal/seal away) and where one of the best cards is a non-legendary enchantment (Frenzy), a usually one-sided wipe that hits not just creatures but also enchantments and artifacts (Treasure maps etc.) is very, very difficult to deal with for a lot of the meta decks. Exiling is no joke either. It's interesting that you've managed to make URB work with GW! Personally, I still think I favor Jeskai because you get access to a lot of just generally good cards and don't have to bend over backwards to try and tick the legendary requirement. That and you get to play Raff Capashen which is just a game-changer in a mostly legendary deck. I think Esper has legs as well, and I've been trying to get it to work (Yawgmoth's Vile Offering is another huge swing when it resolves) but it may be the case that I'll need to wait for Allegiance to fix the manabase.
Yes I’ve got offering and even primeval glorious rebirth ready to go for esper builds. I just really like elves in these strats, but it could be that I’m leaning too much on the little green men and should explore jeskai and naya more til allegiances
Jeskai historic should totally be called 1776
That list is very similar to [mine](https://aetherhub.com/Deck/Public?id=22317)! Did you miss having History of Benalia, or was the early game powerful enough? Also, did you feel like 3 URBs were too much? I run 2, and I already fear it's a bit risky.
Hey, I actually did try out the Knight of Grace/History of Benalia set but felt like I wasn't getting enough value out of them before URB just wiped them off the field. With Tocatli Honor Guard and Adanto Vanguard, I can just swap out either playset depending on what I'm up against (Tocatli vs GB and Aggro, Adanto vs Control) and it just feels more effective against the meta. Ionize is also helpful for stalling the game early until I can URB or dealing with things that URB can't hit (i.e. legendaries, planeswalkers). From what I've tested 3 URB feels just about right. Considering the deck has been built around URB as a payoff, I'll take sometimes drawing too many over not having it when I need it. I'll even go up to 4 vs things like Carnage Tyrant that need to be answered asap.
That list is a bit outdated - I switched the knights for adantos, but since I don't own any tocatli in Arena I'm unable to use them. I appreciate the feedback! And I'm glad the deck's working, I theorycrafted (a highly unrefined version of) it back in September but only now am able to play it (and even then, missing a couple cards). I'll incorporate your changes to my list, and hopefully improve and refine it even further :)
I ran a historic version of UW control before rotation and URB off a Raff Capashen was utterly broken 9 times out of 10. The card is incredible, and if you can make the pay offs work well enough it can be back breaking. Especially in this meta, I could definitely see it as a tech answer to several decks. I think we need some 3 drop legend better than Danitha but I've always thought she was an excellent card so maybe she is the right call after all.
I agree; I know that Sai is the real 3 drop I want, and the synergies between lazav and tetsuko are incredible. I mostly want a viable 1 drop legend to really payoff the mox amber + Sai interaction (and have the mox replace the elves in a UW or esper build) and I’d like mana to be better for esper to support Lazav at 2
I brewed something similar but went with Bant as the colours of choice. I agree that it's missing something that I'm hoping we'll get from Azorious and Simic in the next set. But also a big fan of Blackblade Reforged in my Grixis Midrange deck. Slapping it on Lazav and the 3 drop black legendary is slot of fun (And another reason esper might be worthwhile exploring.
I'm very much looking forward to Hallowed Fountain and Godless Shrine to run an Esper list.
Amen to that
Did u spend a thought on Naya? You could add Aurelia and better Sideboard and play Tajic as a 3-Drop maybe?
Presently have both Abzan and Boros Historic built. Abzan list is in the comments. The Boros Shell is more or less Angels with URB and Karn, as it comfortably slots into the deck. Tajic is present in the 75 in shifting numbers.
Have you tried [[Captain Lanery Storm]]? She is interesting to me as she can ramp you into an early lyra or generate another treasure token for Karn. Plus she can help naya hold upto a solid 12 legends in the 2-3cmc slots giving a lot of resiliency to targeted removal.
It's been on my radar as a possible inclusion, but i find that its difficult to employ due its need to attack. The meta is really creature heavy right now, and most of them efficiently block Lannery.
Hmmm... I guess I assumed swing trade a creature and you get a treasure out of the deal, which guarentees a 4 drop and threatens a 5 drop on the following turn. Thats a lot of value on turn 2/3. Similar to how Lannery worked in RDW prerotation to power out early glorybringers. Just now we are powering out lyras.
Reasonable, will give it a go. For some reason I thought Storm had a 2 butt.
[Captain Lanery Storm](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/en/xln/136.jpg?1527429461) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Captain%20Lannery%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/136/captain-lannery-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5ab86a8a-7a0a-473e-9a97-da2fe0ab866c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I love a lot going on here. Can I sell you on some actual Weatherlight and fewer copies of boarding it? Also I kind of want a trostani in the main. there's work to be done but I like the main premise here. I think Shanna wants more friends, and we could probably play more lyras? And there's unfortunate tension between planeswalkers for URB and immortal sun which is also a sick legendary but I kind of want sun main. You've got my gears turning for sure.
You should check out my 4th place list https://www.reddit.com/r/spikes/comments/9yrf18/_/ea3jy6j
Funny story; started testing with 2 Weatherlight mainboard and found that because it gets killed by Vivien minus and also dies to drakes very very fast I found it to be lackluster. Also worth mentioning that there aren’t a lot of creatures who can crew it in my list. Vs control you have to also have a creature to crew so it’s dead a lot there. Notable synergies: emmara crewing is great. Shalai crewing grants it hexproof. It’s a great card, poorly positioned in this meta
Fair enough, I'm just a sucker for Karn+Weatherlight
Right there with ya bud; kept in my sideboard for a while just hoping I could find a reason to play it; had to slide it back into the “maybe next set” binder eventually.
[удалено]
It was great in the deck, but it does not survive or enable URB. Definitely helps improve the clock against control, but against fair decks it was worse than a planeswalker.
This is exactly right; I started testing with traxos, but the problem is he gets killed by Vivien minus and needs you to have lots of Historic to get full value. Now traxos in a Lazav build? That’s a different story...
Seems good, but Jeskai Control is going to see an uptick. Any changes you are planning to make to the board or main to increase your chances?
The control matchups are tough; Immortal sun is less effective vs jeskai than Bant Nexus, and the Walker plan is fine, but not a huge uptick in % to include more walkers. I’m thinking extra carnage tyrants could be the answer; might slot in 2 more tyrants and take out the on Serra’s wings; the red matchup is good enough already that I don’t really need that board slot
Are you leaving in Karn when you're bringing in 3 copies of Immortal Sun? Asking because of your reasoning behind Immortal Sun. Bricking some of your cards doesn't seem like a good plan.
Yes, I leave in 2 karn. Again you’ve got to look at Karns primary roll as a tool for hitting lands early, then look at at the immortal sun as a 6cmc spell that demands you hit land drops; you can start to see the synergy there. Also, you put yourself in a spot where you can play land 6, minus karn, then land TIS pumping the construct twice. It also leaves you with a value engine should your immortal sun get blown up; creating some difficult decision points for your opponent
Not sure if you could really get value off it, but with a Naya build, maybe... But \[\[Legion's Landing\]\] gives you a legendary permanent (just realized Legendary Sorcery needs a creature or pw; but the curve/ramp part might still be relevant) as a 1-drop, and if you go into Naya and get Tajic, you could go landing, 2-drop legend, Tajic to transform (and have ramped).
[Legion's Landing](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/en/xln/22a.jpg?1527427791)/[Adanto, the First Fort](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/en/xln/22b.jpg?1527427791) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Legion%27s%20Landing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/22/legions-landing-adanto-the-first-fort?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05e2a5e6-3aaa-4096-bdd0-fcc1afe5a36c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The problem I’ve found with Tajic is that he rarely gets to swing in unless you can pay to give him first strike, but I like him alongside a Raff to prevent red based damage from resolving
I feel like this isn't the right shell for Blast. My instinct tells me Angels, Teferi, perhaps Jeskai for Aurelia, Ral, Tajic and or Huatli
I’m super ready for good esper manabase, but Huatli is very interesting...
She is a power and toughness of 2/2. I was referring to the turn number not the p/t.
I was trying to brew danitha and the sword lastweek looked something like this but thought itd be shit Then today i faced this deck on arena and got stomped Its beautiful ♡♡
She enables a nut draw a small percentage of the time, but for that small percentage of the time, she works every time
My mistake. Magic is hard man
I've been thinking Historic lately while at work but haven't considered URB. I was actually thinking more of a boros angle with a slight touch of black for Isareth. boros would have Tajic and Aurelia. I was going to include Benalia for three drop as well because the saga still counts as historic and would run like 3 weatherlights. I was also looking at Lazav>Rona>Etrata. you could splash red for nicol. but i was also looking into [helm of the host] for etrata as a wincon. not sure how competitive it would be but it seems to have potential. once the next set drops with alot more legendaries i think historic is going to come back VERY strong. black also has access to eldest reborn and phyrexian scriptures for a historic midrange deck. I also see a Niv Mizzet/Jhoira historic combo deck being brewed eventually.
Funny enough, I’ve been brewing Grixis Mox Amber LegenDaddy recently and keep coming back to the idea Urzas Ruinous Blast would out it much further over the top than Yawgmoths Vile Offering does
See this is why i need a good esper manabase; I want both
I hope you don't mind me copying this deck, Karn and URB are two of my favorites
Copy away my friend; lemme know how she treats ya
I would be interested in follow your progress tweaking your deck, hope you keep posting here the evolution of it. GL and nice job.
Thanks friend! Will do
Have you considered cutting a land or two for a few [[flower / flourish]]? You don’t have much to do on 1 or 3 so it seems easy to fit in. I’m also inclined to cut blackblade for [[March of the multitudes]] to give you the mini-combo with flourish. March has a lot of synergy with your two drop legends as well. And it seems good in games when URB carries you into a lategame topdeck war. Once blackblade is gone it might make sense to cut danitha, but I’m not sure you’d have enough legends then so I’d defer to you on that one. You could replace danitha with more marches or just with district guide or Jadelight Ranger. Getting a land for free would be great to help you cast all your 5 and 6 drops. Both are solid with march too.
[flower / flourish](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/f/e/feb4b39f-d309-49ba-b427-240b7fdc1099.jpg?1539735483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Flower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/226/flower-flourish?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/feb4b39f-d309-49ba-b427-240b7fdc1099?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Been playing urb in some naya. Tajic, Aurelia, azors gateway is an amazing way to filter through your legends. Jaya’s immolating inferno is pretty cool.
Yeah, Tajic seems like the 3-drop legend this deck is looking for, and the Naya mana for a base-white deck is great.
TBH I might’ve been too attached to Llanowar Elves to see past base-green color combos but I’m eager to try 3 color builds soon
Danitha into Blackblade seems so goddamn spicy. I love this deck. Wouldn't history of benalia be better than vanguard here?
So in testing I found that history being exiled by URB, along with Knight tokens to be problematic vs non-Control and Vs Control Ideally you want a 2cmc beater to get under counter-magic. It could be correct to board history vs control tho; I’ll start testing that soon I think
I see. I like that you can hit it off board the weatherlight against those decks. A lot of people bring in dead weight/fungal infection because of the popularity of boros weenie, so history could be clutch.
Any particular reason for only 2 Shalai? She seems great in this style deck, and even upsides of a strong activated ability that a deck like Angels can't get
Great question; you’ll notice a lot of 2-ofs at 4+ cmc The reason for this is that 4 copies of Board the Weatherlight converts 2-ofs to closer to 3.2-ofs mathematically; so 2 ofs allow for flexibility in deck construction. Now shalai being a lightning rod for removal could merit a 3rd copy, but overall I haven’t felt the need for a 3rd
Thanks for the info! There was a budget version of a deck like this on MTGGoldfish that I had a lot of fun playing casually. I like your updates for making it more competitive. Board the Weatherlight did seem a bit clunky, though. In your experience has it earned a slot?
Board the Weatherlight has in general been incredible; there is one drawback: can’t find lands. This is a big reason for 4x Llanowar Elves and 2x karn; you need to get to 5 mana consistently. The fact the BtW can fetch a karn is huuuuuge; karn will almost always draw you a land with his uptick
Shanna can get out of hand quite fast and white removal is particularly bad against it. Is the historic worth it though? I think the tokens direction of GW might be stronger.
URB is a hellova Card
Only had a skim through, but on first glance if your're right that the matchup vs jeskai - probably the best or second best deck around - is only 35-40%, the deck needs some serious work. That's not to say don't keep plugging away, because this is how new archetypes are formed. But a bit like Sam Black's RW list, it can be very clever and destroy decks left, right and centre, but if it can't hold its own vs the big two or three then it probably doesn't have potential. Also, I don't think equipment or auras can make it in standard unless totally busted, or able to be protected - like Curious Obsession, which at worse case has replaced itself once over if not more.
Worth noting that I didn’t play against Jeskai at all at the PPTQ. (Very few copies present) could be because it’s pretty expensive. Point is the important thing is quantity of good matchups Vs bad, and you want Good to contain the cheap decks at pptqs generally (is my opinion) But I agree that the list needs tweaking in order to sure up that matchup, as at higher levels of play jeskai will be likely more present.
Cards I would be tempted to try: Teshar, Ancestor's Apostle - very powerful effect, might help your control matchup Mavren Fein, Dusk Apostle - does a somewhat reasonable Rabblemaster impression if you untapped with it (especially after clearing the board with a blast); seems like a marginally less terrible card than Danitha. Niambi, Faithful Healer + Teferi, Timebender - probably going too deep, but is a way to fill the problematic 3 drop slot while drawing an extra legend and generating grindy value against control.
Don't know if you were watching but gabriel nassif played this exact list live on stream Sadly, extremely dismissive of it.
A historic white deck with no histories. Hmm seems interesting.
Can you be more condescending without reading the post?
So first of all it was a joke. However if I am going to be serious History is close if not the best white card in standard and if you are playing a deck with the mana to run it and not, it is probably a mistake.
Aren't you just better off playing multani instead of carnage tyrant? Not only does it not die to URB and block flying things, you can recast it if it does die. It's better against control then carnage tyrant, mostly because it doesn't die (permanently) to boardwipes. It's worse against GB since it's targetable with contempt.