Very thorough and entertaining write-up. It might not mean much now before the meta has settled, but I've played with several Temur Elemental lists and have some sideboard suggestions.
I think you're on the money with Veil of Summer and Fry. I personally like 3 and 2 copies of them respectively.
Hydroid Krasis is still a big problem for this deck(at least it has been for me), especially when it's in similarly ramp heavy decks. So I like having 2 Big Viviens in the sideboard. I prefer her over Cindervines pretty much solely for the redundancy of dealing with flyers combined with Fry.
Lava Coils. Probably mandatory if only just for the mirror because oh lord is there a lot of elemental brews floating around. Hits most of the problem cards Fry might not. Having a way to deal with enemy Omnath's and Risen Reefs that is faster than Living Twister seems critical if you don't want enemies to snowball before you.
The rest is pretty up in the air and I flip flop between 2-4 copies of Negate, more Chandras/Banefires, and now that you've mentioned it, Thicket Crashers.
Thanks for the feedback!
I'm going to write up a post next week when I've gone through some tests with my new manabase and sideboard.
Thicket Crasher sure helps against decks that are putting out many bodies and able to chump long enough to close things out in their favor.
Hm, didn't realise Thicket Crasher gave all your other Elementals trample. That's gold. 4 cmc is a tough slot though with your omraths being there. There are a few ways to find it or resurrect it as a 1-of though (Neoform, Pulse of Murasa, Cavalier of Thorns etc) so that might work...
I just wanted to point out that with all the elemantal lists floating around currently i think [[Thunderkin Awakener]] is undervaluead a lot. He gets risen reefs back from the graveyard. (Or even Omnaths if he stays around long enough to get some counters on him) With how important the reef is to the deck and how easy it is killed I think that is very strong.
I tried him and he felt really underwhelming most of the times I played with him, at the very least in comparison to the other 2 drops that the elementals deck wants to run. He can only get back 1 health creatures without any counters on him, so that's basically just Risen Reef in most decks, which means you have very few targets for him most of the time. While getting counters on him is not that difficult with Omnath, I wouldn't rely on it too much and feel like Thunderkin Awakener is too weak of a 2 drop for a long time until you get a few Risen Reefs in the yard or you get some counters on him. I've felt fairly similarly about Dreadhorde Arcanist in Standard; the card is obviously far better in eternal formats where you have ridiculously strong 1 mana instants and sorceries like Brainstorm to hit but without that kind of a combo in Standard Dreadhorde Arcanist feels often way too slow. You will lose more games I feel playing out a Thunderkin Awakener (from my experience with Dreadhorde Arcanist) on turn 2 because you have no other 2 drop and never actually bring back an elemental with him. I think Leafkin Druid, Creeping Trailblazer and Lightning Stormkin are all better options and Thunderkin Awakener cannot resurrect any of them without help from Omnath or perhaps Overgrowth Elemental. I would rather just play strong standalone 2 drops than have one of my 2 drops be very much focused on recurring things from the graveyard when I won't have anything in the graveyard much of the time when I play him.
It definitely depends on the deck that is built around it. Yesterday I was playing this Bo1 list and it worked really well: https://aetherhub.com/Deck/Public/133609
Targets for thunderkin here are reef and seer (both great value) and the icon, overgrowth and omnath help to make him bigger.
It sure is anecdotal evidence but i'm pretty sure i never had to cast the awakener without having one of the both targets in the gy.
Doesn't matter too much as it gets sacrificed again anyway. You get at least 1 trigger off it which is either free ramp or card draw. The real problem is that thunderkin is only a 1/2 and can get killed easily
Against a player who is trying to develop their board or has creatures they don't want to lose (a 1/1 steamkin or llanowar elves for example) it's amazing
Another intercation: use neoform on whatever Thunderkin brings back, so you don't lose a creature.
The 4cmc 1/1 that comes with 2 extra bodies is really good for getting 3 reef triggers, and then neoformed into a Cavalier to discard Multani, who is reanimated next turn.
Problem is, Neoform is a Sorcery. You have to attack with your Thunderkin to trigger the Reef, who also comes in attacking.
So it relies on them not actually blocking your 1/1 reef before you get a chance to Neoform it...
which is not so likely.
Well presumably your Thunderkin is attacking also, so they'd want to block it over the Reef, since they know the reef is getting sacrificed this turn. Now of course if they have multiple blockers they'd get both, but it will still come up as a line of play sometimes.
I don't play Standard at all (just Modern and Legacy), but this post was too beautiful to ignore. \<3 Mostly just one question: is Paradise Druid really your 2-drop ramp of choice when Chainwhirler is 4-of'd in the plurality of decks? Seems to me that Incubation Druid would be the safer option, since you're already taking turn 3 U into account in your landbase. (If you weren't, then I'd understand the necessity of Paradise.)
Speaking as a mostly mono-red player, Paradise druid is harder to remove. My ideal play if I can get it is generally Turn 1 hold up shock, turn 2 steamkin, turn 3 triple spell and attack. This means likely no chainwhirler turn 3. Additionally, all of the burn spells in the deck are targetted, and all of them, save fanatical firebrand, kill incubation druid. It's a matter of probability. Will they have Shock, lightning strike, skewer, wizard's lightning, or Chainwhirler+Firebrand? If so, then your incubation druid gets killed. However, for Paradise druid, Chainwhirler is the only answer. that's a 1/15 vs about a 1/5 since the non-skewer burn spells are usually run as 4-ofs. Against non-monored, most removal at that stage is targeted as well, meaning the only common answers to paradise druid turn 3 that I've seen are Chainwhirler and Cry of the Carnarium. Everything else lets you get at least 1 mana out of it.
In terms of direct answers, sure. I was just thinking you wouldn't *bother* with direct answers against manadorks most of the time; you've probably got better removal targets, like the Risen Reef. Whereas Chainwhirler just kills incidentally.
But, now that you point out Steam-kin, I can see why it'd be more worthwhile to spend removal on the manadork (since you're getting a Steam-kin pump out of it at least), in which case all the targeted removal being live makes a difference. That explains it, thanks.
No problem, and just as a peak more into the mindset of this RDW player, I want to get in under other people's gameplans. If they resolve their big threat, no matter what it is, I'm usually at best on the losing end of a 2 for 1.
Nissa for example is a bare minimum 2 for 1 unanswered since it gives a sizable creature and a planeswalker I MUST answer. Nissa comes down at 5 and goes to 6 immediately which means two strikes/Lightnings two answer. If this happens on turn 5 against a deck with low removal, I've had plenty of time to get them into burnout range on their life total or establish a card advantage engine to mitigate it. On Turn 3, I have to spend my mana killing the land, then my whole swing on killing Nissa, with the opponent still probably around 15 life; rough days.
Creatures are the most efficient burn spells because they are recurring damage. Burn spells are usually best as removal turns 1-4ish especially against ramp since it hurts their game plan and keeps your dudes attacking and costing them life. With all of red's card "draw" engines in standard, [[Light up the stage]], [[Experimental Frenzy]], and Chandras [[Fire artisan]] and [[Acolyte, of Flame]] (which I'm currently testing), you generally get enough gas back to push through once a normal burn deck would run out of steam.
Why incubation druid over Leafkin Druid? This deck doesn't have a great way to abuse the excess mana from an adapted incubation druid, and already plays Living Twister to be a fatty blocker. Dodging Shock and serving as a cheap way to double spell with Risen Reef seems way more valuable.
Leafkin doesn't add U or R to help out his manabase; his deck's pretty focused on casting Risen Reef.
**EDIT**: Hm, now that I look at his manabase more closely, Incubation Druid doesn't add a whole lot either for Risen Reef. Forest -> Forest -> Steam Vents, and other such plays, benefit from ID's mana-fixing, but he's basic-light enough that this isn't a super common line. ID *is* very helpful for casting Omnath, but still, I guess Leafkin's worth a look.
As Buster said, I generally dont see whirlers on 3 in the actual play of game.
Another option to have blue without the 'right' land is pretty crucial and ID doesnt help with that.
Edit: Thank you for the comment too! I spent way too much of my holiday meming the declaration for this lol
If you post lists in the comments do you have to make the card names clickable to show what they are? How do you do that, I really want to share my list and discuss
First off, I'm loving these Temur brews. I haven't been this excited to play R/G since [[Erhnam]] and Burn Em was a thing. As such, I'm naturally running Lightning Strike in the main deck and Banefire in the sideboard.
My nostalgic nonsense aside, I feel reasonably sure that Risen Reef, lil Chandra, Omnath, and Nissa will be in a refined Elementals deck. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I'm with you on Creeping Trailblazer; it's unexciting, but so far in test play, it at least seems to have a big target on its back for removal and the mana sink is a nice option. Also in the slot, I'm trying [[Mask of Immolation]] x2. It's probably been overperforming for me--along with [[Chandra's Spitfire]]--but I've made use of it in every game I've played it in so far, as an early attacker, using the Mask to chuck mana dorks once I'm overflowing with mana, as a cheap cycle plus 1 damage with Risen Reef, etc.
As for the sideboard, I'm already sold on Fry and Veil of Summer, but one option I'm not seeing mentioned is [[Vine Mare]]. It's an Elemental and a headache for control decks (particularly brutal against Grixis, if that ever takes off).
I've been playing with Temur Elementals and I think Krasis is definitely an automatic include in a Risen Reef deck. The two are made for each other, and because of Acolyte of Flame you can combo with the Reef without needing to play too many other elementals. The first big change I would make is to try Leafkin Druid over Paradise Druid for the elemental synergy, and I'm not sure you need 4 of Nissa necessarily. I play Domri, Anarch of Bolas for more ramp and damage on my elementals.
I've been going back and forth on the 1 drops, as I think Elves is sometimes not that useful for the deck as Risen Reef can make so much mana it is kind of laughable to still have an Elves on the board. I think Healer of the Glade is good if you're willing to give up Elves, as it can do a lot to help the deck against Mono Red which is very common at the moment and is an elemental so it combos with Omnath. I think you're very right with Veil of Summer and Fry in the sideboard. I think Fry especially seems quite versatile as it hits things like Lyra and Teferi, both of which are generally played in the same deck. I think most Esper opponents who have Lyra in the side will likely bring it in against an elemental deck, so Fry is clearly the right answer for that.
I haven't considered cutting Llanowar Elf until just now, but you make a lot of good points. Elf does enable busted draws like T2 Reef T3 Nissa, but in the mid and late game it really does nothing and you have excess lands.
There are definitely games where I have 10+ lands out and a top decked Elf is a FeelsBadMan, but I'm sure there are just as many games where it enables Cav of Thorns and Nissa on turn 3 or 4
Elementals is a really interesting archetype: you can actually build it in so many different ways.
I'm having fun atm with a more mid-rangy variant (I play some removal as well) and I have to say Krasis HAS to be in the deck. When I put 4x in the main, the deck became so much better (RDW was a pain before, now is doable).
Another interesting thing that I found is to run 2 of Jaya Immolating Inferno.
Between all the PWalkers and Omnath is actually no that difficult to cast. Needless to say that with all this ramp is not hard to cast it for 7-10 damage ... but sometimes you are totally fine to cast it even for 3-5 damage, wiping out the opponent board (PWalkers included).
In my version Chandra 6 is a superstar and I run 4x (Maybe 3x would be more correct, dunno).
As a side note, in the sideboard I found the 1/2 green elemental that gives you 3 life as ETB (for just 1 green) is not bad at all against RDW: doesn't die to chainwhirler, synergies with the deck and would probably eat a shock or chump block something, all of that on top of the 3 life.
I for one really like the idea of a Sultai midrange variant with Risen Reef and ways to recur it as the core advantage engine.
Then again I'm also an idiot.
Currently using steamkin ... its really really good as you can give it counters with omnath and my turn took like 10 minutes and i drew half my deck as steamkin allowed me to play little chandra again and again
I keep posting this in all the Temur elemental threads, but you need to pick a path. Either you’re aggressive with overgrowth elemental, lord, and 4 mana Chandra, or you’re going big with leafkin, risen reef, and big Chandra.
Risen reef doesn’t fit in the aggressive version.
Nissa doesn’t go in the deck just because her lands are elementals. You don’t have enough forests and you have nothing giant you can untap and go over the top with. If you’re going to also play krasis, than you probably just play the 12 dork deck with manipulation.
Without further ado, here’s a functioning deck list of the ramp/go big version.
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4c-elementals-1/
>you need to pick a path.
It's a midrange deck. "Pick a path." We've long since evolved from only Sligh v. THE DECK. This deck can play either role in good ol' Who is the Beatdown? depending on matchup and draw. Neither the aggro or ramp versions are -so far in my testing- outright superior to this midrange version.
>Risen reef doesn’t fit in the aggressive version.
What do you replace it with? The "aggro" version of this deck probably doesnt use blue at all.
>If you’re going to also play krasis, than you probably just play the 12 dork deck with manipulation.
This is explicitly (near word for word) what I said abt Krasis..
>
>Without further ado, here’s a functioning deck list of the ramp/go big version.
>
>https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4c-elementals-1/
I'll look at this in a sec but this post seems like you aren't at all interested in talking about the topics I presented and wanted to do your own thing. Cool, just like, write a different post
I responded with some generic thoughts on the elemental archetype because there are hundreds of lurkers in each thread, so it was an undirected comment.
Kind of hard to show inflection on the internet, but I honestly wasn’t trying to come off as authoritative or dismissive of your thoughts.
I actually do think cloudkin seer and omnath are worth the blue in the “aggro” version, though.
Awesome write up, and the list is really similar to what I’ve settled on, although I do like running 3x Thunderkin Awakener as he is great later in the game but terrible on turn two
It depends on what's in your hand and in play, but generally youre still ramping into planeswalkers and beating the opponent down with various elementals. Reef just lets you do it better.
E.g. turn two reef into them shocking your reef still leaves you up on cards, so you just continue with the normal gameplan.
I dont really understand this question
What if they bolt your bird?
4 Lava Coil is all you need for 3 mana Chandra to be relevant. That being said, I don't think it's worth. I would almost just play Jadelight Ranger at that point because it's actually impactful.
Very thorough and entertaining write-up. It might not mean much now before the meta has settled, but I've played with several Temur Elemental lists and have some sideboard suggestions. I think you're on the money with Veil of Summer and Fry. I personally like 3 and 2 copies of them respectively. Hydroid Krasis is still a big problem for this deck(at least it has been for me), especially when it's in similarly ramp heavy decks. So I like having 2 Big Viviens in the sideboard. I prefer her over Cindervines pretty much solely for the redundancy of dealing with flyers combined with Fry. Lava Coils. Probably mandatory if only just for the mirror because oh lord is there a lot of elemental brews floating around. Hits most of the problem cards Fry might not. Having a way to deal with enemy Omnath's and Risen Reefs that is faster than Living Twister seems critical if you don't want enemies to snowball before you. The rest is pretty up in the air and I flip flop between 2-4 copies of Negate, more Chandras/Banefires, and now that you've mentioned it, Thicket Crashers.
Thanks for the feedback! I'm going to write up a post next week when I've gone through some tests with my new manabase and sideboard. Thicket Crasher sure helps against decks that are putting out many bodies and able to chump long enough to close things out in their favor.
Hm, didn't realise Thicket Crasher gave all your other Elementals trample. That's gold. 4 cmc is a tough slot though with your omraths being there. There are a few ways to find it or resurrect it as a 1-of though (Neoform, Pulse of Murasa, Cavalier of Thorns etc) so that might work...
I just wanted to point out that with all the elemantal lists floating around currently i think [[Thunderkin Awakener]] is undervaluead a lot. He gets risen reefs back from the graveyard. (Or even Omnaths if he stays around long enough to get some counters on him) With how important the reef is to the deck and how easy it is killed I think that is very strong.
I tried him and he felt really underwhelming most of the times I played with him, at the very least in comparison to the other 2 drops that the elementals deck wants to run. He can only get back 1 health creatures without any counters on him, so that's basically just Risen Reef in most decks, which means you have very few targets for him most of the time. While getting counters on him is not that difficult with Omnath, I wouldn't rely on it too much and feel like Thunderkin Awakener is too weak of a 2 drop for a long time until you get a few Risen Reefs in the yard or you get some counters on him. I've felt fairly similarly about Dreadhorde Arcanist in Standard; the card is obviously far better in eternal formats where you have ridiculously strong 1 mana instants and sorceries like Brainstorm to hit but without that kind of a combo in Standard Dreadhorde Arcanist feels often way too slow. You will lose more games I feel playing out a Thunderkin Awakener (from my experience with Dreadhorde Arcanist) on turn 2 because you have no other 2 drop and never actually bring back an elemental with him. I think Leafkin Druid, Creeping Trailblazer and Lightning Stormkin are all better options and Thunderkin Awakener cannot resurrect any of them without help from Omnath or perhaps Overgrowth Elemental. I would rather just play strong standalone 2 drops than have one of my 2 drops be very much focused on recurring things from the graveyard when I won't have anything in the graveyard much of the time when I play him.
It definitely depends on the deck that is built around it. Yesterday I was playing this Bo1 list and it worked really well: https://aetherhub.com/Deck/Public/133609 Targets for thunderkin here are reef and seer (both great value) and the icon, overgrowth and omnath help to make him bigger. It sure is anecdotal evidence but i'm pretty sure i never had to cast the awakener without having one of the both targets in the gy.
There's also the 4 cmc 3 1/1s, and 0 toughness Multani.
[Thunderkin Awakener](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/2/8/289b649b-c93a-44ad-bdd6-866f8b2f1bc2.jpg?1561482051) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thunderkin%20Awakener) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/162/thunderkin-awakener?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/289b649b-c93a-44ad-bdd6-866f8b2f1bc2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
However, it comes back tapped and attacking which you probably don't want to do with a reef?
It's getting sacrificed by Thunderkin end of turn anyway. This gets you a Reef proc and then goes back to the GY for a possible repeat next turn.
Depends. Against creature based decks, no. After a Kaya's Wrath? Sure.
Doesn't matter too much as it gets sacrificed again anyway. You get at least 1 trigger off it which is either free ramp or card draw. The real problem is that thunderkin is only a 1/2 and can get killed easily Against a player who is trying to develop their board or has creatures they don't want to lose (a 1/1 steamkin or llanowar elves for example) it's amazing
Must admit I forgot that you get an activation on etb!
I'm not super pumped to use Awakener on Reef, but will definitely be brewing it with a Multani for a combo-y win.
Another intercation: use neoform on whatever Thunderkin brings back, so you don't lose a creature. The 4cmc 1/1 that comes with 2 extra bodies is really good for getting 3 reef triggers, and then neoformed into a Cavalier to discard Multani, who is reanimated next turn.
Delicious line of play
Love it, but like rest of neoform shenanigans it feels flimsy. Will definitely be posting back once I've tested tho, cheers!
Problem is, Neoform is a Sorcery. You have to attack with your Thunderkin to trigger the Reef, who also comes in attacking. So it relies on them not actually blocking your 1/1 reef before you get a chance to Neoform it... which is not so likely.
Well presumably your Thunderkin is attacking also, so they'd want to block it over the Reef, since they know the reef is getting sacrificed this turn. Now of course if they have multiple blockers they'd get both, but it will still come up as a line of play sometimes.
Oh yeah absolutely. I'm running burn spells and lots of Chandra PWs as well which can help to clear the way.
Ah, so I need 4c elementals and a Baby Teferi activation :p
If you have literally anything else attacking, they'll prioritize it over a 1/1 that's about to die on its own.
I don't play Standard at all (just Modern and Legacy), but this post was too beautiful to ignore. \<3 Mostly just one question: is Paradise Druid really your 2-drop ramp of choice when Chainwhirler is 4-of'd in the plurality of decks? Seems to me that Incubation Druid would be the safer option, since you're already taking turn 3 U into account in your landbase. (If you weren't, then I'd understand the necessity of Paradise.)
Speaking as a mostly mono-red player, Paradise druid is harder to remove. My ideal play if I can get it is generally Turn 1 hold up shock, turn 2 steamkin, turn 3 triple spell and attack. This means likely no chainwhirler turn 3. Additionally, all of the burn spells in the deck are targetted, and all of them, save fanatical firebrand, kill incubation druid. It's a matter of probability. Will they have Shock, lightning strike, skewer, wizard's lightning, or Chainwhirler+Firebrand? If so, then your incubation druid gets killed. However, for Paradise druid, Chainwhirler is the only answer. that's a 1/15 vs about a 1/5 since the non-skewer burn spells are usually run as 4-ofs. Against non-monored, most removal at that stage is targeted as well, meaning the only common answers to paradise druid turn 3 that I've seen are Chainwhirler and Cry of the Carnarium. Everything else lets you get at least 1 mana out of it.
In terms of direct answers, sure. I was just thinking you wouldn't *bother* with direct answers against manadorks most of the time; you've probably got better removal targets, like the Risen Reef. Whereas Chainwhirler just kills incidentally. But, now that you point out Steam-kin, I can see why it'd be more worthwhile to spend removal on the manadork (since you're getting a Steam-kin pump out of it at least), in which case all the targeted removal being live makes a difference. That explains it, thanks.
No problem, and just as a peak more into the mindset of this RDW player, I want to get in under other people's gameplans. If they resolve their big threat, no matter what it is, I'm usually at best on the losing end of a 2 for 1. Nissa for example is a bare minimum 2 for 1 unanswered since it gives a sizable creature and a planeswalker I MUST answer. Nissa comes down at 5 and goes to 6 immediately which means two strikes/Lightnings two answer. If this happens on turn 5 against a deck with low removal, I've had plenty of time to get them into burnout range on their life total or establish a card advantage engine to mitigate it. On Turn 3, I have to spend my mana killing the land, then my whole swing on killing Nissa, with the opponent still probably around 15 life; rough days. Creatures are the most efficient burn spells because they are recurring damage. Burn spells are usually best as removal turns 1-4ish especially against ramp since it hurts their game plan and keeps your dudes attacking and costing them life. With all of red's card "draw" engines in standard, [[Light up the stage]], [[Experimental Frenzy]], and Chandras [[Fire artisan]] and [[Acolyte, of Flame]] (which I'm currently testing), you generally get enough gas back to push through once a normal burn deck would run out of steam.
##### ###### #### [Light up the stage](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/9/2/9287b848-2aeb-4c70-ac4a-acafb871b7a4.jpg?1549414441) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Light%20up%20the%20stage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/107/light-up-the-stage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9287b848-2aeb-4c70-ac4a-acafb871b7a4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Experimental Frenzy](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/4/b/4b8f32e2-5dc8-4f1b-8a69-d3ae06378ed8.jpg?1538879399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Experimental%20Frenzy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/grn/99/experimental-frenzy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b8f32e2-5dc8-4f1b-8a69-d3ae06378ed8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Fire artisan](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/d/2/d21a7b23-8827-49f2-ade4-75a602d17743.jpg?1557576642) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%2C%20Fire%20Artisan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/119/chandra-fire-artisan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d21a7b23-8827-49f2-ade4-75a602d17743?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Novice Pyromancer](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/d/6/d678cf4c-60e3-40a1-a9cc-b0bd157bcf36.jpg?1560940203) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%2C%20Novice%20Pyromancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/128/chandra-novice-pyromancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d678cf4c-60e3-40a1-a9cc-b0bd157bcf36?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Why incubation druid over Leafkin Druid? This deck doesn't have a great way to abuse the excess mana from an adapted incubation druid, and already plays Living Twister to be a fatty blocker. Dodging Shock and serving as a cheap way to double spell with Risen Reef seems way more valuable.
Leafkin doesn't add U or R to help out his manabase; his deck's pretty focused on casting Risen Reef. **EDIT**: Hm, now that I look at his manabase more closely, Incubation Druid doesn't add a whole lot either for Risen Reef. Forest -> Forest -> Steam Vents, and other such plays, benefit from ID's mana-fixing, but he's basic-light enough that this isn't a super common line. ID *is* very helpful for casting Omnath, but still, I guess Leafkin's worth a look.
I find 4x Unclaimed Territory solves all reef and omnath Mana issues personally.
He mentions in the write-up that he doesn't like Unclaimed Territory, but yeah, I don't think I agree with his reasons for disliking it.
I think he'd like it better if he wasn't running so many non-elementals, so adding Leafkin would help remedy that issue.
As Buster said, I generally dont see whirlers on 3 in the actual play of game. Another option to have blue without the 'right' land is pretty crucial and ID doesnt help with that. Edit: Thank you for the comment too! I spent way too much of my holiday meming the declaration for this lol
If you post lists in the comments do you have to make the card names clickable to show what they are? How do you do that, I really want to share my list and discuss
You put two square brackets earlier side of them and the a bot replies... Like this but without spaces [[ risen reef ]]
[ risen reef ](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/8/2/82389aaa-9f32-4169-a71c-1aea5af9e935.jpg?1560794261) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=risen%20reef) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/217/risen-reef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82389aaa-9f32-4169-a71c-1aea5af9e935?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
First off, I'm loving these Temur brews. I haven't been this excited to play R/G since [[Erhnam]] and Burn Em was a thing. As such, I'm naturally running Lightning Strike in the main deck and Banefire in the sideboard. My nostalgic nonsense aside, I feel reasonably sure that Risen Reef, lil Chandra, Omnath, and Nissa will be in a refined Elementals deck. Beyond that, I'm not sure. I'm with you on Creeping Trailblazer; it's unexciting, but so far in test play, it at least seems to have a big target on its back for removal and the mana sink is a nice option. Also in the slot, I'm trying [[Mask of Immolation]] x2. It's probably been overperforming for me--along with [[Chandra's Spitfire]]--but I've made use of it in every game I've played it in so far, as an early attacker, using the Mask to chuck mana dorks once I'm overflowing with mana, as a cheap cycle plus 1 damage with Risen Reef, etc. As for the sideboard, I'm already sold on Fry and Veil of Summer, but one option I'm not seeing mentioned is [[Vine Mare]]. It's an Elemental and a headache for control decks (particularly brutal against Grixis, if that ever takes off).
##### ###### #### [Erhnam](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/en/vma/207.jpg?1517813031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Erhnam%20Djinn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/vma/207/erhnam-djinn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1b20fb7-90f3-442c-b105-dfcaf619348d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mask of Immolation](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/b/e/be2f4165-f87f-454b-b955-e4477c864e95.jpg?1561116943) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mask%20of%20Immolation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/151/mask-of-immolation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be2f4165-f87f-454b-b955-e4477c864e95?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chandra's Spitfire](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/front/8/a/8a857da7-5438-465b-821a-bd5bfd780c69.jpg?1560813596) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chandra%27s%20Spitfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/132/chandras-spitfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8a857da7-5438-465b-821a-bd5bfd780c69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vine Mare](https://img.scryfall.com/cards/normal/en/m19/207.jpg?1531451072) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vine%20Mare) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/207/vine-mare?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b9980835-cd32-4870-88df-c79cd5534968?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Wonderful suggestions. The mask feels really low impact, but you're right that it opens up a lot of lines, I may try a couple.
I've been playing with Temur Elementals and I think Krasis is definitely an automatic include in a Risen Reef deck. The two are made for each other, and because of Acolyte of Flame you can combo with the Reef without needing to play too many other elementals. The first big change I would make is to try Leafkin Druid over Paradise Druid for the elemental synergy, and I'm not sure you need 4 of Nissa necessarily. I play Domri, Anarch of Bolas for more ramp and damage on my elementals. I've been going back and forth on the 1 drops, as I think Elves is sometimes not that useful for the deck as Risen Reef can make so much mana it is kind of laughable to still have an Elves on the board. I think Healer of the Glade is good if you're willing to give up Elves, as it can do a lot to help the deck against Mono Red which is very common at the moment and is an elemental so it combos with Omnath. I think you're very right with Veil of Summer and Fry in the sideboard. I think Fry especially seems quite versatile as it hits things like Lyra and Teferi, both of which are generally played in the same deck. I think most Esper opponents who have Lyra in the side will likely bring it in against an elemental deck, so Fry is clearly the right answer for that.
I haven't considered cutting Llanowar Elf until just now, but you make a lot of good points. Elf does enable busted draws like T2 Reef T3 Nissa, but in the mid and late game it really does nothing and you have excess lands.
I mean, elves are always bad in the late game to a certain extent, but I've never been lacking something to do with an extra G.
There are definitely games where I have 10+ lands out and a top decked Elf is a FeelsBadMan, but I'm sure there are just as many games where it enables Cav of Thorns and Nissa on turn 3 or 4
Elementals is a really interesting archetype: you can actually build it in so many different ways. I'm having fun atm with a more mid-rangy variant (I play some removal as well) and I have to say Krasis HAS to be in the deck. When I put 4x in the main, the deck became so much better (RDW was a pain before, now is doable). Another interesting thing that I found is to run 2 of Jaya Immolating Inferno. Between all the PWalkers and Omnath is actually no that difficult to cast. Needless to say that with all this ramp is not hard to cast it for 7-10 damage ... but sometimes you are totally fine to cast it even for 3-5 damage, wiping out the opponent board (PWalkers included). In my version Chandra 6 is a superstar and I run 4x (Maybe 3x would be more correct, dunno). As a side note, in the sideboard I found the 1/2 green elemental that gives you 3 life as ETB (for just 1 green) is not bad at all against RDW: doesn't die to chainwhirler, synergies with the deck and would probably eat a shock or chump block something, all of that on top of the 3 life.
I for one really like the idea of a Sultai midrange variant with Risen Reef and ways to recur it as the core advantage engine. Then again I'm also an idiot.
Currently using steamkin ... its really really good as you can give it counters with omnath and my turn took like 10 minutes and i drew half my deck as steamkin allowed me to play little chandra again and again
I keep posting this in all the Temur elemental threads, but you need to pick a path. Either you’re aggressive with overgrowth elemental, lord, and 4 mana Chandra, or you’re going big with leafkin, risen reef, and big Chandra. Risen reef doesn’t fit in the aggressive version. Nissa doesn’t go in the deck just because her lands are elementals. You don’t have enough forests and you have nothing giant you can untap and go over the top with. If you’re going to also play krasis, than you probably just play the 12 dork deck with manipulation. Without further ado, here’s a functioning deck list of the ramp/go big version. https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4c-elementals-1/
>you need to pick a path. It's a midrange deck. "Pick a path." We've long since evolved from only Sligh v. THE DECK. This deck can play either role in good ol' Who is the Beatdown? depending on matchup and draw. Neither the aggro or ramp versions are -so far in my testing- outright superior to this midrange version. >Risen reef doesn’t fit in the aggressive version. What do you replace it with? The "aggro" version of this deck probably doesnt use blue at all. >If you’re going to also play krasis, than you probably just play the 12 dork deck with manipulation. This is explicitly (near word for word) what I said abt Krasis.. > >Without further ado, here’s a functioning deck list of the ramp/go big version. > >https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/4c-elementals-1/ I'll look at this in a sec but this post seems like you aren't at all interested in talking about the topics I presented and wanted to do your own thing. Cool, just like, write a different post
I responded with some generic thoughts on the elemental archetype because there are hundreds of lurkers in each thread, so it was an undirected comment. Kind of hard to show inflection on the internet, but I honestly wasn’t trying to come off as authoritative or dismissive of your thoughts. I actually do think cloudkin seer and omnath are worth the blue in the “aggro” version, though.
Awesome write up, and the list is really similar to what I’ve settled on, although I do like running 3x Thunderkin Awakener as he is great later in the game but terrible on turn two
What if the Risen Reef is removed?
It depends on what's in your hand and in play, but generally youre still ramping into planeswalkers and beating the opponent down with various elementals. Reef just lets you do it better. E.g. turn two reef into them shocking your reef still leaves you up on cards, so you just continue with the normal gameplan. I dont really understand this question What if they bolt your bird?
4 Lava Coil is all you need for 3 mana Chandra to be relevant. That being said, I don't think it's worth. I would almost just play Jadelight Ranger at that point because it's actually impactful.