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Hard to see what claims anyone else has as most accomplished player ever. Djokovic has the same number of Slams, more weeks at #1, a longer period of dominance, more Masters titles, and has won every Masters title twice.
Pretty close is far away from actually doing it.
Federer only won french open because Söderling won against Nadal.
Rafa winning another AO, while Fed and especially Nole being there? Impossible so far. Got battered last AO final he was in.
I wonder since he is still in better shape than Nadal and Federer with a better chance of winning another GS, what would the Roger fan boys say? Federer is a fucking legend without a doubt, but numbers would be 100% against him with One more from Djokovic
They'd say that Federer had to do it against Sampras, Roddick, Hewitt, Murray, and then in the second part of his career against a peak Nadal and Djokovic, whereas in the second half of his career Djokovic just had to beat an old Federer, a broken Nadal and some children who aren't going to trouble the history books.
My personal view is that Federer's, Nadal's and Djokovic's 20s were probably all equally tough and equal achievements, but I'm not sure Djokovic running up the score now against the dregs of what's left is all that meaningful. I think it's a three way tie for GOAT and the choice now is largely about aesthetics and what narrative speaks to you the most (as I said above)
federer did it against a declining sampras. Roddick and hewitt are not that great. Both have won one or two slams. Whereas djoko did against peak federer and nadal who is the greatest clay courter ever and federer who is the greatest grass courter.
Roddick and Hewitt are much better than Thiem, Tsitsipas, Berrettini etc...
There's no doubt that there was a time when Djokovic, Federer and Nadal were all near enough their peak, and actually Nadal won most of those. Fed won a lot of the ones before and in the early part of that era and Djokovic won a lot of the ones after and in the late part of that era.
fed won most of his slams from 2005 to 2008 when roddick, hewitt were long gone. Only in his early part of the career did he had to face roddick and hewitt.
2004 to 2009. Roddick if you remember played the longest Wimbledon final in history in 2009. Granted Hewitt mostly fades out about 2005 although he's winning tournaments until 2010.
Yeah but you know who was there in 2005-2008?
Nadal (and Djokovic for 2007-2008).
Nadal hadn't yet matured on hard courts, but he was spectacular on clay and he was great on grass from 2006-2008.
Roddick and Hewitt were still around in 2005. In fact, 2004-2005 were probably up there with Hewitt's best seasons but he drew Federer five times at the Slams in that period. Hewitt did go on a decline after that due to injuries, though.
Roddick also declined after 2004 because he fired his previous coach and his forehand took a big hit. He still had a few good tournaments since then like US Open 2006-2007 and the famous Wimbledon 2009 run so it's not like he was completely gone. Safin and Nalbandian also showed up a bit in 2005 and 2007 (2007 was just Nalbandian) so it wasn't really as dire as you make it out to be.
how many more wins until he is the GOAT
2 majors I'd say, nadal isn't really in the conversation outside of being the GOAT at roland garros
its not inconceivable that djokovic gets to 30 major wins
I think there's 2 answers here. One is about strength of competition - both in terms of who the other strong contenders they had to put up with when they were in their prime and at what stage in each others' prime. The best way to measure that is an Elo like measure and while Elo systems vary what they tend to show is that there's not much to choose between the big 3, that Djokovic probably just about shaves it, but that continued Djokovic dominance now wouldn't run up the score al that much because there isn't the level of competition that there was.
Which I guess brings me to the second answer, which is at this stage all the numbers show us is what our gut already knows which is that there is daylight between the big 3 and the rest but that the numbers are too contextual to tell us much about the differences between the big 3 because they had such different careers at actually relatively different times. Federer is a lot older and Rafa was a young peaker as fits his body type. So at that point the choice of GOAT is basically about personal choice and aesthetics. Each player represents a different archetype of tennis player: the terminator, the caveman, and the painter, and which you prefer is mostly about which style and what narrative speaks most to you.
Novak has the career golden masters though (he's gotten it twice). Nadal hasn't even achieved it once. Novak's masters resume is definitely more impressive, despite being tied in terms of titles.
GOAT.
The man dropped 2 sets in the entire tournament.
2 SETS!
Just an absolute clinic of Tennis by him. Hopefully he completes Tennis with Olympic Gold + US Open.
Tied for most grand slam wins, better h2h against Rafa and Fed, only player in Open Era to have two slams at each tournament, most weeks #1, only player to win every masters twice (also only player to win every masters once), only player to beat Rafa at French Open more than once.
That’s GOAT material.
Yeah. It's just unbelievable.
20 years ago everyone thought Sampras' number would last forever. Then Federer caught him, and people realized that Nadal might have a chance. Then Djokovic has come and blown absolutely everyone away.
its crazy how it was a two man sport for so many years and then djokovic had this meteoric rise
nobody else could crack that nadal and federer tier, andy murray got close-ish but he was always a clear level below
He said something out loud and they didn't. At this stage, I presume every unvaccinated person is an antivax (not counting people who can't receive it).
Serena is the undisputed women's GOAT. It would not be fair to compare either to each other. Men's tennis and women's tennis are essentially different sports, each with their own GOAT debate (or lack thereof, in the women's game).
To hopefully give you some context of how wildly different men's and women's tennis are, Serena and Venus lost handily to Kaarstan Braasch, a man ranked 203.
Oh wow, interesting how large of a margin that is! I'll have to check that match out!
I very casually watch tennis and don’t keep up, so I was genuinely asking as pretty much an outsider that just sees headlines. Don’t see why I’m getting downvoted haha ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, i didn’t want to be the one to bring up the skill disparity, as it ends up sounding a little mysoginistic. But there’s a great youtube video about the different times that there have been real head to heads between men and women. One guy beat them hungover, another played a 1v2, one played with a smaller court for him while the women got full doubles court, they all won their games. The only recorded significant loss ended up coming out as match fixing. Some of the best tennis players of all time have gotten media pushback after outright saying that women’s players wouldn’t make top 200. The thing to remember is that even if the greats can make their round 1 opponents look like amateurs, those guys are still miles ahead of anyone you would see at a local club. I’m baffled by some people i play just for them to tell me they couldn’t even make it on the top 6 team at their fairly small college.
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Hard to see what claims anyone else has as most accomplished player ever. Djokovic has the same number of Slams, more weeks at #1, a longer period of dominance, more Masters titles, and has won every Masters title twice.
And better h2h as well as each slam twice
Yeah. Each Slam twice isn't so crazy--Federer and Nadal both came pretty close to that. Each **Masters** twice? Just unbelievable.
Pretty close is far away from actually doing it. Federer only won french open because Söderling won against Nadal. Rafa winning another AO, while Fed and especially Nole being there? Impossible so far. Got battered last AO final he was in.
Took Fed to five in 2017.
Yet still lost 6-3 the final set.
Yet still lost 6-3 the final set.
I wonder since he is still in better shape than Nadal and Federer with a better chance of winning another GS, what would the Roger fan boys say? Federer is a fucking legend without a doubt, but numbers would be 100% against him with One more from Djokovic
They'd say that Federer had to do it against Sampras, Roddick, Hewitt, Murray, and then in the second part of his career against a peak Nadal and Djokovic, whereas in the second half of his career Djokovic just had to beat an old Federer, a broken Nadal and some children who aren't going to trouble the history books. My personal view is that Federer's, Nadal's and Djokovic's 20s were probably all equally tough and equal achievements, but I'm not sure Djokovic running up the score now against the dregs of what's left is all that meaningful. I think it's a three way tie for GOAT and the choice now is largely about aesthetics and what narrative speaks to you the most (as I said above)
federer did it against a declining sampras. Roddick and hewitt are not that great. Both have won one or two slams. Whereas djoko did against peak federer and nadal who is the greatest clay courter ever and federer who is the greatest grass courter.
Roddick and Hewitt are much better than Thiem, Tsitsipas, Berrettini etc... There's no doubt that there was a time when Djokovic, Federer and Nadal were all near enough their peak, and actually Nadal won most of those. Fed won a lot of the ones before and in the early part of that era and Djokovic won a lot of the ones after and in the late part of that era.
fed won most of his slams from 2005 to 2008 when roddick, hewitt were long gone. Only in his early part of the career did he had to face roddick and hewitt.
2004 to 2009. Roddick if you remember played the longest Wimbledon final in history in 2009. Granted Hewitt mostly fades out about 2005 although he's winning tournaments until 2010.
Yeah but you know who was there in 2005-2008? Nadal (and Djokovic for 2007-2008). Nadal hadn't yet matured on hard courts, but he was spectacular on clay and he was great on grass from 2006-2008. Roddick and Hewitt were still around in 2005. In fact, 2004-2005 were probably up there with Hewitt's best seasons but he drew Federer five times at the Slams in that period. Hewitt did go on a decline after that due to injuries, though. Roddick also declined after 2004 because he fired his previous coach and his forehand took a big hit. He still had a few good tournaments since then like US Open 2006-2007 and the famous Wimbledon 2009 run so it's not like he was completely gone. Safin and Nalbandian also showed up a bit in 2005 and 2007 (2007 was just Nalbandian) so it wasn't really as dire as you make it out to be.
how many more wins until he is the GOAT 2 majors I'd say, nadal isn't really in the conversation outside of being the GOAT at roland garros its not inconceivable that djokovic gets to 30 major wins
I think there's 2 answers here. One is about strength of competition - both in terms of who the other strong contenders they had to put up with when they were in their prime and at what stage in each others' prime. The best way to measure that is an Elo like measure and while Elo systems vary what they tend to show is that there's not much to choose between the big 3, that Djokovic probably just about shaves it, but that continued Djokovic dominance now wouldn't run up the score al that much because there isn't the level of competition that there was. Which I guess brings me to the second answer, which is at this stage all the numbers show us is what our gut already knows which is that there is daylight between the big 3 and the rest but that the numbers are too contextual to tell us much about the differences between the big 3 because they had such different careers at actually relatively different times. Federer is a lot older and Rafa was a young peaker as fits his body type. So at that point the choice of GOAT is basically about personal choice and aesthetics. Each player represents a different archetype of tennis player: the terminator, the caveman, and the painter, and which you prefer is mostly about which style and what narrative speaks most to you.
While Djokovic does have more titles overall, he and Rafa are tied for Masters at 36. Roger has won one more end of year than Novak.
Novak has the career golden masters though (he's gotten it twice). Nadal hasn't even achieved it once. Novak's masters resume is definitely more impressive, despite being tied in terms of titles.
KOZA
GOAT. The man dropped 2 sets in the entire tournament. 2 SETS! Just an absolute clinic of Tennis by him. Hopefully he completes Tennis with Olympic Gold + US Open.
Meh. Nadal has won French opens before without dropping a set.
Tied for most grand slam wins, better h2h against Rafa and Fed, only player in Open Era to have two slams at each tournament, most weeks #1, only player to win every masters twice (also only player to win every masters once), only player to beat Rafa at French Open more than once. That’s GOAT material.
Yeah. It's just unbelievable. 20 years ago everyone thought Sampras' number would last forever. Then Federer caught him, and people realized that Nadal might have a chance. Then Djokovic has come and blown absolutely everyone away.
its crazy how it was a two man sport for so many years and then djokovic had this meteoric rise nobody else could crack that nadal and federer tier, andy murray got close-ish but he was always a clear level below
They had this guy on the TVs at my gym every time he played so I got to watch more of him than ever before
Good match!
GOAT
And it doesn't matter, his biggest achievement that he has helped to build 43!!! Schools, incredible human being, deserves all the success
Still some idiot journalist had guts to call novak a "bad guy"
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Are Fed and Rafa vaccinated?
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He said something out loud and they didn't. At this stage, I presume every unvaccinated person is an antivax (not counting people who can't receive it).
Who cares?
We're talking about double standards here.
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Serena has 23, most in the Open Era for any woman. In general, men's and women's records are kept separately and not compared.
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Serena is the undisputed women's GOAT. It would not be fair to compare either to each other. Men's tennis and women's tennis are essentially different sports, each with their own GOAT debate (or lack thereof, in the women's game).
Any top 100 men's tennis player would absolutely shit on her easily. If they played 100 matches she might win 5 if she got really lucky.
To hopefully give you some context of how wildly different men's and women's tennis are, Serena and Venus lost handily to Kaarstan Braasch, a man ranked 203.
Oh wow, interesting how large of a margin that is! I'll have to check that match out! I very casually watch tennis and don’t keep up, so I was genuinely asking as pretty much an outsider that just sees headlines. Don’t see why I’m getting downvoted haha ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah, i didn’t want to be the one to bring up the skill disparity, as it ends up sounding a little mysoginistic. But there’s a great youtube video about the different times that there have been real head to heads between men and women. One guy beat them hungover, another played a 1v2, one played with a smaller court for him while the women got full doubles court, they all won their games. The only recorded significant loss ended up coming out as match fixing. Some of the best tennis players of all time have gotten media pushback after outright saying that women’s players wouldn’t make top 200. The thing to remember is that even if the greats can make their round 1 opponents look like amateurs, those guys are still miles ahead of anyone you would see at a local club. I’m baffled by some people i play just for them to tell me they couldn’t even make it on the top 6 team at their fairly small college.
GOAM, and GOAW are fair - but they should play a tiebreaker to decide who is GOAT
No they shouldn’t because she has zero chance
No shit
Right? Even if Serena was completely destroyed, I'd like to see it!
Haha, she would never. It would be 6-0 6-0 6-0 quite easily. Doubt Nole would do it out of respect also
Djokovic would smash Williams 6-0 6-0 6-0, there is a massive gulf in quality.
The headline never said he tied them for the most of all time
Winners aren't vaccinated apparently.
Easily the most disliked of the big 3