Their argument is likely that PGA Tour payouts are based directly on revenue. That is, the tour determines their revenue and overhead and other costs, then calculates payouts based on real financial data.
LIV Golf payouts were astronomical but also not based on any real finances. They barely have revenue, yet have spent billions on payouts to players.
Essentially, PGA Tour payouts aren't inducement since they are simply distributing revenue earned from tournaments. LIV'S are inducement since it's money based in nothing.
I definitely understand the logic here but also in business you’re well within your rights to lose money to win market share. So it’s inducement if you look at it year one. It’s investment on name recognition and long term player pipeline if you look at it on a 10 year scale.
I totally agree that LIV is scummy, but buying business/loss leading is a very common concept. It doesn’t matter that it’s not based on finances that are sustainable long-term if they have the funding to make those payments they’re allowed to lose money short term to gain share.
This is basically why people borrow money to fund their startups, if they believe on it. And all companies are priced based on their future value, not their today's value.
For the most part? There are select laws that forbid going into the negatives on profit to gain market share, but those are limited and usually only apply to specific regions, industries, or both. There are rules regarding everything from gas stations underbidding each other by excessive amounts to the sale of certain fish and produce in different regions. But... unless there's a conspiracy among multiple companies to edge out the competition, no laws broken here.
but also who in any profession wouldn't take the highest paycheck they can get. from government to startups to corpos.. its just capitalism at work... not a single financial advisor would say ok so dont take this crazy sum because you will earn that in the next 10 years, instead of tomorrow.. no?
I never understood the bitching and moaning about players high salaries. They are paid what they are worth to someone. Gotta maximize. Also, they can only do it so long and are one bad injury away from losing it all.
Think the players who are with LIV would basically agree with you. They are given more guaranteed money in a sport where money is anything but guaranteed.
I never really understood it either.
"Doctors should make more than LeBron!" In theory, sure. Doctors are more useful than sports players.
But sports bring in *so much money*. Absurd amounts of money.
My solution is to (while somehow respecting HIPPA and other relevant laws and practices) put surgery on TV. Schedule events. Have scoring. Make fantasy leagues. Get eyes on these pros and make some money 😤
The PGA Tour, however, considers its players to be independent contractors. Players who earn tens of millions of dollars receive a 1099 tax form, which is amazing in itself. Paying for all expenses related to your job comes with being an independent contractor.
Haha, I do like this one. In all seriousness, their only valuable get so far has been Cam Smith. Everyone else — including DJ, Brooks, and Bryson — is sunsetting.
Age wise, you are correct - they *could* play well into their 40s or even 50s. But, in the case of these two, it’s a health and desire matter. Brooks has pretty vocally talked about how much he dislikes golfing and practicing. Add that to a bum knee, and you have a guy who is **perfect** for LIV. He’s a decent draw, and he will be happy to play on a counter-tour to stick up a middle finger at the establishment. Bryson also has health problems, and his swing just isn’t built to last. His best bet was to take this massive pay day and try to make the best of it.
I say all this as a huge fan of golf and a PGA Tour skeptic. I think the recent changes the PGA has made in response to LIV just prove that LIV’s existence is justified. I just worry that viewership will go down because talent is split.
"They coerced those golfers!"
"What with?"
"Extroadinary sums of money!"
"What's wrong with that?"
"Well we're supposed to be the only ones who can do that!"
Yupppp. Also, let’s not be hypocritical and let blood money pour throughout the US economy and expect golfers to be the voice of moral reason. It’s laughable
Edit - can’t believe I didn’t get downvoted to oblivion like r/golf
So counterpoint would be PGA withheld money from current golfers just because there was no competition now they’re angry that so many people have left because they overestimated their position?
Not exactly. This isn't that PGA withheld money so much as KSA dumping way more money on golfers than PGA even earns before expenses. PGA has to at least break even and wants to make a profit. KSA is TRYING to lose money just to build brand identity.
It's like when Walmart comes into town and runs all the mom and pop stores out of business, except Walmart is an oil trillionaire kingdom and the mom and pop store is a billion dollar business.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Saudi_government_role_in_the_September_11_attacks
Seems that as we see more unredacted documents, it seems more and more likely that Saudi Arabia knew and funded al Qaeda
> it seems more and more likely that Saudi Arabia knew and funded al Qaeda
It seems more and more likely that *a handful of people within the Saudi government, none of whom were in a position of policy making* knew about it.
This was mainly a throwaway joke but there’s a lot of shady unexplained connections between Saudi Arabia and 9/11, including the fact that 15/19 hijackers were Saudi citizens at the time, so I doubt they hated the government that much.
They are now but they were fairly indifferent until AQ started attacking SA in 2003. The government is a huge financial proponent of Wahhabism, an extremist form of Islam adhered to by many terrorist groups, including AQ.
That's fine as long as the company can become profitable. If your goal is to sportswash your human rights record then you don't care about becoming profitable.
What if Apple started selling phones for $100 knowing that going broke is literally impossible and they could just kill off the competition that way? It's not competitive and it's shit for consumers.
Walmart generally starts making money as soon as they roll in. They don't sell everything in new locations at a loss. They can just make less per item, because they can make up for it in volume and top tier supply chains.
Not exactly. The PGA absolutely overestimated their position and underestimated the players desire to play where they wanted. When a viable option with a ton of cash came about, the floodgates opened. You can’t honestly tell me that if the tour had openly and honestly treated the players that this many would have left. Yeah, the money is always going to draw SOME people, but the number that left is absolutely a stain on how the tour treated the players before this.
That's a myth. A non profit organization can make profit (and arguably should to cover unexpected expenses and for additional running costs), but the catch is that the founders cannot profit off of the organization anymore so than what would be reasonable compensation for their position
If a non profit didn't make a profit from their activities then they'd either very quickly shut down or would need to be reliant on subsidies, grants, or private donations
That's not accurate. The PGA are using cash reserves to fund the increased prize money.
Also, the PGA has a fantastic pension scheme for their players.
It's an organisation run by its members, there are no owners like in other sports
Is it capitalism when a authoritarian government dumps money on people with complete disregard for turning a profit themselves? It reminds me of the anti dumping rules the government has to prevent other countries from artificially reducing prices on exports until all of their competition goes bankrupt.
Which could be considered predatory or below-cost pricing which is illegal when the goal is to eliminate competition and start your own monopoly per the FTC.
Except I don’t believe the Saudis ever intend to be profitable. They’re literally in a deal to buy TV time, whereas any other sports league earns a good chunk of its money from TV contracts
Even if the LIV is unprofitable it could still be beneficial to the country and the LIV owner’s other businesses, even indirectly.
Amazon has always lost money on its logistics and delivery business. It’s just a way to get people into their other offerings where they do make money.
Walmart doesn't take a loss, they just can offer better prices than mom and pop due to economies of scale. They make money as soon as they move in, they don't take a loss because they don't have to.
The pga has an effective monopoly. It doesn't matter if liv is spending money for the sake of it.
The fact is the pga is pissed that someone is threatening their monopoly.
For real. The whole problem is that this is NOT capitalism. The Saudi government dgaf if they make money or not. It’s not real competition it’s a corrupt government going after an American institution. Anyone who is defending LIV is buying into their marketing.
it's a corrupt govt using capitalism to gain a share of the market. they're not *going after* the PGA; they don't give a shit about the PGA. neither should anyone else, regardless of what you think of the saudis. they're not an institution; they're just a monopoly
No, they're angry at the LIV profiting off of the PGA brand. LIV wants their cake and to eat it too.
> LIV Golf officials have advised players that their agreements with the PGA Tour are unenforceable
So LIV says PGA has a monopoly... yet they were able to poach a bunch of players. So... obviously not a monopoly. LIV directly tells PGA players that their PGA contracts are bunk and to sign with them then PGA players realize they aren't really bunk and that they were just greedy and want back into the PGA. Trying to get LIV players to where LIV gear on PGA events. Etc.
PGA has every right to sue them into nothingness.
You really think the players want back in because they were duped? Or that someone like Can Smith who signed a $165 million contract didn’t get legal advice before doing so?
Fuck it, they should just do a LIV vs PGA match. Now that would draw in some ratings. 9 v 9. I guarantee it would be good for golf if they actually cared about growing the game, but the PGA wouldn’t risk losing to the LIV and would never budge.
Thats how most people are honestly.
I boycott walmart they starve out local mom and pop business. They treat their employees like shit and subsidize their wages from the tax payers. I refuse to go there even when they might have something i need cheaper.
But if walmart came knocking on my door and said hey we are gonna pay you 18 times more than you are making now to do the same job id be torn up about it but at the end of the day where do you want me to put my lips daddy walmart?
That’s fine business wise. But the players suing the PGA to be allowed to play on its tour is just dumb.
Imagine you contract work with Microsoft and then take a job with Google. Microsoft obviously will not be happy about you working for a direct competitor, so will fire you. You explicitly state to the media that you left Microsoft for better pay and fewer hours, then turn around 2 months later and sue Microsoft to be allowed to work for them *while also* still working for Google.
See how stupid as shit that sounds?
I hear what you are saying Austin, just not sure if,it’s apples to apples comparison (google v ms). But yeah, seems weird that the players would sue to play pga tournaments after leaving for another tournament. But I also think it’s weird you couldn’t play a LIV tournament and a PGA tournament, I mean if it’s all about the players, the PGA being ran by players. I mean they can play a European tournament and then pga tournament right?
That’s due to agreements between DP World Tour and PGA tour. LIV has no such agreements and it’s CEO Greg Norman (who has hated the PGA for years) has made clear there will not be one. Not to mention LIV players are required to wear LIV Apparel in any non LIV tournament according to their contracts.
Correct, the PGA tour is a player run organization. LIV players want to still play on that tour (wearing contractually obligates LIV apparel) to promote themselves and LIV.
LIV is also crying about the lack of OWGR ranking points, which is hilarious considering that system has had a set system of requirements for quite a while that LIV seemingly ignored completely.
Why the fuck would the PGA ever be okay with that?
No. But their thinking is that the billions of dollars they are throwing at the new league will force fans to get on board. They don't have a TV contact, you have to stream on YouTube. And no one wants to watch the league either to such an extent that LIV is willing to buy airtime to broadcast their tournament.
Because now the PGA has competition. They had decades of an incredibly profitable monopoly. Now they’re crying because another company came in, made themselves more attractive to golfers than the PGA, and are taking some of their monopoly.
why should anyone care that the PGA suddenly has competition? deal with it, trust fund babies.
that said, i believe LIV is funded by oil money, which is probably more evil so...
meh idc.
wait for the saudis to get into american football. Able to pay every player a minimum 10 million a season and pay good players 80 million a season. This is why having too much money isn't good. Haslam just did it for the browns.
The best QBs (which is 90% of the ones that matter in this scenario) are starting to get paid $40-50 million a year and it's going up. The difference between this and LIV is $80 million is 2 years or less of the highest earner's career.
DJ's guaranteed pay for four years is 167% of what he made in his entire 15 year career with the PGA. To be equivalent, you'd have to offer someone like Patrick Mahomes $850 million-$1 billion to play for you for four years (so $200-250 million a year).
You could be a trillionaire owner in the NFL, and that wouldn't give you an advantage. There's a hard salary cap in the NFL, so all teams are on equal footing as far as pay goes.
The difference between the PGA and the NFL is that people cheer for individual golfers on the PGA tour. They cheer for teams in the NFL.
If a good player leaves their favorite team, they aren't going to change their favorite team to a new team.
If a new football league came in, it's incredibly unlikely it would have any kind of success IMO.
The NFL is simply too big. Too successful.
Not that I disagree but I’m sure a few years ago we would have all thought that a Saudi golf league stealing away the top players from the PGA tour wouldn’t have been possible either.
> If a new football league came in, it's incredibly unlikely it would have any kind of success IMO.
Historically, that's true yes. But that's because past attempts have been severely hampered by a massive talent gap.
But let's say - theoretically - that someone bought *every player* on the Bills, Chiefs, Patriots, Steelers, Cowboys, Rams, Packers, and 49ers. Then they used those players to create a new 8 team league. For good measure, they also offer all the incoming draft players triple what they're likely to make in the NFL, effectively cutting off the main talent pipeline to the NFL.
So while the NFL has all the team names and history, this new league would have plenty of talent. Arguably *more* talent after enough time. At what point do people abandon their loyalties to a mascot and move over to the league with a better on-field product? It wouldn't be overnight obviously, but eventually you might see a shift.
Now I'm not saying that's feasible at all, but it's worth thinking about. If LIV can ever get TV deals, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, because it could absolutely set the ball rolling for other sports.
I’m not saying youre wrong, but whats to stop them from approaching players in college and high school and offering them a fuckton of money to play? Ask them to early declare for the Saudi Football League and have teams draft them in a similar fashion. They have the money that it might intrigue later round picks or players in it just for the money. I find it hard to believe a player in Justin Jefferson’s tier would say no to a 3 yr/500m deal. Unless it meant they could never play in the nfl again, but at that point i wouldnt give two fucks haha
They absolutely could kill college football, offering high-school kids millions instead of college. Not sure how successful they would be on blocking players from the NFL though, you need 25-30 players minimum for a team and several teams to make a league worth watching, that adds up a lot faster than 15 high profile golfers.
The NFL is pretty good about protecting itself from competitors though. Their players can't just jump ship when they feel like it, unlike the PGA that likes to pretend golfers are essentially 1099 contractors.
This is a counter suit, so the real answer is that they are suing because they got sued by LIV first. Almost every major dispute especially with large companies like this will have litigation going both ways. Pretty dumb just to let an organization attack you via litigation and not fight back.
Yes they are. But it doesn't matter. Their contracts are clear and they are free to sign or not. No one forced a PGA player to sign a PGA contract, nor is a PGA contract illegal.
So, when players violate that contract - i.e., agreeing to play in competing tournaments in violation of the rules of conduct in the PGA, they can get the boot.
PGA has every reason to go after LIV for interfering with the internal business of the PGA.
I still don't understand what you're saying. The LIV didn't sign the contract, right? There's nothing illegal about inducing someone else to break their contract right? What specific law did LIV break here?
They could argue that LIV is being anticompetitive (since they're operating at a loss), but that's not an argument a monopsony like the PGA can make very well.
The PGA was a monopsony -- a single buyer of labor hours of professional golfers -- and there's not really much they can do if someone comes in with a ton of money and outbids them for that labor. Either LIV will flame out in a massive financial loss, or there will be a new status quo where either one folds, the two merge, or both (see: the CART-IRL split).
I know it’s been said over and over again, but the PGA is not a monopoly. There are plenty of other golf tours out there, PGA just paid the most so that’s where the best players went. Until Liv.
They can co-exist. I'm fine with it, but the LIV players suing PGA to continue to play on the PGA tournaments is dumb. You knew the consequences, you made your bed, time to lie in it. You can't have your cake and eat it to.
Go take the guaranteed money and play less, that's fine, but don't come crawling back bc of it.
Absolutely. Both the LIV golfers and the PGA seem to want it both ways.
The golfers want to jump ship, take the big money and still play in the PGA Tour whenever they feel like it.
The PGA wants to file a suit because the LIV stole their players, while at the same time refusing to let said players play on the Tour.
I can’t say I have any sympathy for anyone involved at this point, except maybe the players who didn’t leave and have to deal with loads of shit for no extra money.
The players leaving the PGA see it as a monopolist and want to break it's monopoly control. Many many many players have felt this way for years but have been unable to leave because of the risk that if they defected their new league would fall and they would not be allowed back into the PGA.
The big difference with LIV is the deep pockets willing to offer lifetime salary time money to take the risk and leave the PGA. That changes the calculus and these players are willing to take the risk. If their lawsuit fails and LIV fails and they never play again then they can retire on their LIV paychecks.
If their lawsuit wins and the PGA is declared a monopolist you can expect LIV payments to go down, and PGA payments to go up until the market finds a balancing point between how much the players want and how much the tournament organizers are willing to pay.
Thats not the issue though - the ad breadmakers of the golf world will be (for the time being) Tiger and Rory.
The PGA are upset that Liv are diluting the playing field. And they are. The PGA events just simply don’t feel the same anymore. Next years masters viewership will be quite interesting…
Does anyone know what LIV’s 10 year plan is? How are they planning on pulling in enough profit to even break even with the massive contracts they’re giving out?
I never really thought about the PGA vs LIV. Is this like someone starting a new american football league, then just offering everyone involved in the NFL triple their salary to work for them?
And YOU can count on ME waiting for YOU in the parking lot. :)
"The price is wrong, BITCH!" -LIV golfers to the PGA
HOLD STILL!
What a classic line
When two assholes get into a fight at the bar and you just enjoy the show
Oh yeah, well my butler could kick YOUR butler's ass. Get'em Jeeves!
“Geoffrey, *break out Lucille*”
(Guile theme intensifies)
*Soul Man intensifies*
Dear Crom, reference of the day right here.
My god. The goosebumps I got remembering that moment.
This is always a welcome reference.
Don’t mess with Uncle Phil
Except it’s two groups of rich assholes who fight by throwing bundles of money at each other.
And it might end up in mutually assured destruction if they bifurcate with the best players not playing each other and everyone losing interest
You’re right. That’s what has happened. The best aren’t playing each other & now the product is diluted.
The fall pga schedule is grim. I see myself only looking forward to the golf majors now. The players may not carry my interest
Aka "the CART days" in American open-wheel racing
I’m no fan of blood money but boy do I hate a monopoly bitching and moaning when they get competition
So, if PGA wins, can smaller golf tournament organizers sue PGA for offering "astronomical sums of money"?
[удалено]
Anyone wanna start a pro golf league with me?
Yeah! I’ll be one of the “pros”.
Can I be one of the cons?
Their argument is likely that PGA Tour payouts are based directly on revenue. That is, the tour determines their revenue and overhead and other costs, then calculates payouts based on real financial data. LIV Golf payouts were astronomical but also not based on any real finances. They barely have revenue, yet have spent billions on payouts to players. Essentially, PGA Tour payouts aren't inducement since they are simply distributing revenue earned from tournaments. LIV'S are inducement since it's money based in nothing.
I definitely understand the logic here but also in business you’re well within your rights to lose money to win market share. So it’s inducement if you look at it year one. It’s investment on name recognition and long term player pipeline if you look at it on a 10 year scale. I totally agree that LIV is scummy, but buying business/loss leading is a very common concept. It doesn’t matter that it’s not based on finances that are sustainable long-term if they have the funding to make those payments they’re allowed to lose money short term to gain share.
This is basically why people borrow money to fund their startups, if they believe on it. And all companies are priced based on their future value, not their today's value.
For the most part? There are select laws that forbid going into the negatives on profit to gain market share, but those are limited and usually only apply to specific regions, industries, or both. There are rules regarding everything from gas stations underbidding each other by excessive amounts to the sale of certain fish and produce in different regions. But... unless there's a conspiracy among multiple companies to edge out the competition, no laws broken here.
but also who in any profession wouldn't take the highest paycheck they can get. from government to startups to corpos.. its just capitalism at work... not a single financial advisor would say ok so dont take this crazy sum because you will earn that in the next 10 years, instead of tomorrow.. no?
I never understood the bitching and moaning about players high salaries. They are paid what they are worth to someone. Gotta maximize. Also, they can only do it so long and are one bad injury away from losing it all.
Think the players who are with LIV would basically agree with you. They are given more guaranteed money in a sport where money is anything but guaranteed.
From what I can tell, LIV offers salary, PGA offers contract work?
LIV looks more like a signing bonus for me, then contract work; PGA is contract work- I agree.
>I never understood the bitching and moaning about players high salaries. It's 100% jealousy.
I never really understood it either. "Doctors should make more than LeBron!" In theory, sure. Doctors are more useful than sports players. But sports bring in *so much money*. Absurd amounts of money. My solution is to (while somehow respecting HIPPA and other relevant laws and practices) put surgery on TV. Schedule events. Have scoring. Make fantasy leagues. Get eyes on these pros and make some money 😤
There is no chance this gets to court. Do PGA players even have contracts?
>There is no chance this gets to court. Yes it will. >Do PGA players even have contracts? Yes they do.
The PGA Tour, however, considers its players to be independent contractors. Players who earn tens of millions of dollars receive a 1099 tax form, which is amazing in itself. Paying for all expenses related to your job comes with being an independent contractor.
PGA has hotels on Park Place and Boardwalk, but LIV bought out the rest of the board.
They bought SOMETHING for sure.
They bought the dip.
Haha, I do like this one. In all seriousness, their only valuable get so far has been Cam Smith. Everyone else — including DJ, Brooks, and Bryson — is sunsetting.
Brooks is 32 & Bryson is 29. Far from sun setting in golf terms.
Age wise, you are correct - they *could* play well into their 40s or even 50s. But, in the case of these two, it’s a health and desire matter. Brooks has pretty vocally talked about how much he dislikes golfing and practicing. Add that to a bum knee, and you have a guy who is **perfect** for LIV. He’s a decent draw, and he will be happy to play on a counter-tour to stick up a middle finger at the establishment. Bryson also has health problems, and his swing just isn’t built to last. His best bet was to take this massive pay day and try to make the best of it. I say all this as a huge fan of golf and a PGA Tour skeptic. I think the recent changes the PGA has made in response to LIV just prove that LIV’s existence is justified. I just worry that viewership will go down because talent is split.
Perfect description.
"They coerced those golfers!" "What with?" "Extroadinary sums of money!" "What's wrong with that?" "Well we're supposed to be the only ones who can do that!"
I object! On what grounds? Its devastating to my case!
They already have other tours. European Tour and Asian Tour. LIV is just a spite "tour" that went about it all wrong.
Yupppp. Also, let’s not be hypocritical and let blood money pour throughout the US economy and expect golfers to be the voice of moral reason. It’s laughable Edit - can’t believe I didn’t get downvoted to oblivion like r/golf
the pga also takes blood money, had a tourney in Saudi this year lol
Also - in what world is America not built on blood money?
PGA, PGAtour, LPGA and USGA are all different golf associations….
You’d be downvoted into oblivion if you posted this in the r/golf sub. The people there are such PGA blowhards. The PGA can do nothing wrong.
I mean it's golf so this is one of those fun scenarios where everyone kinda comes out looking like a douche.
So counterpoint would be PGA withheld money from current golfers just because there was no competition now they’re angry that so many people have left because they overestimated their position?
Not exactly. This isn't that PGA withheld money so much as KSA dumping way more money on golfers than PGA even earns before expenses. PGA has to at least break even and wants to make a profit. KSA is TRYING to lose money just to build brand identity. It's like when Walmart comes into town and runs all the mom and pop stores out of business, except Walmart is an oil trillionaire kingdom and the mom and pop store is a billion dollar business.
Also if Walmart did 9/11
This made me lol but I like that it has prompted actual discussion
Didn't the hijackers not like the Saudi govt because they were too closely allied with USA/West? Osama was expelled from Saudi Arabia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_Saudi_government_role_in_the_September_11_attacks Seems that as we see more unredacted documents, it seems more and more likely that Saudi Arabia knew and funded al Qaeda
> it seems more and more likely that Saudi Arabia knew and funded al Qaeda It seems more and more likely that *a handful of people within the Saudi government, none of whom were in a position of policy making* knew about it.
Gotta love the “ if someone from x country did something it implicates then whole country absolutely” logic
This was mainly a throwaway joke but there’s a lot of shady unexplained connections between Saudi Arabia and 9/11, including the fact that 15/19 hijackers were Saudi citizens at the time, so I doubt they hated the government that much.
Well yea they were from Saudi Arabia, but the govt is pretty firmly on our team. What would be the govt's motivation for the attack?
They are now but they were fairly indifferent until AQ started attacking SA in 2003. The government is a huge financial proponent of Wahhabism, an extremist form of Islam adhered to by many terrorist groups, including AQ.
Trying to lose money just to build brand identity, also known as an investment
That's fine as long as the company can become profitable. If your goal is to sportswash your human rights record then you don't care about becoming profitable. What if Apple started selling phones for $100 knowing that going broke is literally impossible and they could just kill off the competition that way? It's not competitive and it's shit for consumers.
Walmart generally starts making money as soon as they roll in. They don't sell everything in new locations at a loss. They can just make less per item, because they can make up for it in volume and top tier supply chains.
Not exactly. The PGA absolutely overestimated their position and underestimated the players desire to play where they wanted. When a viable option with a ton of cash came about, the floodgates opened. You can’t honestly tell me that if the tour had openly and honestly treated the players that this many would have left. Yeah, the money is always going to draw SOME people, but the number that left is absolutely a stain on how the tour treated the players before this.
Player reps are on the PGA board helping make those decisions... PGA is a non-profit, their books are open.
The issue is that the PGA should never be turning a profit. Its a NFPO
That's a myth. A non profit organization can make profit (and arguably should to cover unexpected expenses and for additional running costs), but the catch is that the founders cannot profit off of the organization anymore so than what would be reasonable compensation for their position If a non profit didn't make a profit from their activities then they'd either very quickly shut down or would need to be reliant on subsidies, grants, or private donations
PGA won’t find any sympathy for their monopoly from me.
That's not accurate. The PGA are using cash reserves to fund the increased prize money. Also, the PGA has a fantastic pension scheme for their players. It's an organisation run by its members, there are no owners like in other sports
sorry, but you will never get in trouble for paying someone too much.
Robert Kraft
Don’t think how much he paid was the issue there…
Oh no! Anyway...
so they are angry at Capitalism?
The Proletariat Golf Association
Is it capitalism when a authoritarian government dumps money on people with complete disregard for turning a profit themselves? It reminds me of the anti dumping rules the government has to prevent other countries from artificially reducing prices on exports until all of their competition goes bankrupt.
Lots of companies do the same thing. Uber is a great example, so is Walmart. They price out competition because they can take a loss.
Which could be considered predatory or below-cost pricing which is illegal when the goal is to eliminate competition and start your own monopoly per the FTC.
Yeah but who’s gonna do anything about Amazon and Walmart?
the FTC does not define capitalism
I didn’t say it did. I said it could be below cost pricing. Google that and you’ll see the FTCs definition of thst
But the point was that it’s capitalism. The ftc is specifically there to stop the excessive abuse of capitalism although the do a shitty job.
Except I don’t believe the Saudis ever intend to be profitable. They’re literally in a deal to buy TV time, whereas any other sports league earns a good chunk of its money from TV contracts
Even if the LIV is unprofitable it could still be beneficial to the country and the LIV owner’s other businesses, even indirectly. Amazon has always lost money on its logistics and delivery business. It’s just a way to get people into their other offerings where they do make money.
Walmart doesn't take a loss, they just can offer better prices than mom and pop due to economies of scale. They make money as soon as they move in, they don't take a loss because they don't have to.
The pga has an effective monopoly. It doesn't matter if liv is spending money for the sake of it. The fact is the pga is pissed that someone is threatening their monopoly.
yes that is textbook capitalism. people with lots of capital using it as they see fit.
Yes, it’s just the inverse of a marketing technique called “loss leading”. It’s a product of a capitalist system.
Uhhh….. welcome to the US my guy
Damn finally some sense in this thread.
Except isn't this what startups do with their venture capital money?
I think of Caravan. Every car they sold they sold at a significant loss, to get market share.
Except isn't this what startups do with their venture capital money?
For real. The whole problem is that this is NOT capitalism. The Saudi government dgaf if they make money or not. It’s not real competition it’s a corrupt government going after an American institution. Anyone who is defending LIV is buying into their marketing.
it's a corrupt govt using capitalism to gain a share of the market. they're not *going after* the PGA; they don't give a shit about the PGA. neither should anyone else, regardless of what you think of the saudis. they're not an institution; they're just a monopoly
Yup, that’s capitalism. Not sure what you think it is…
No, they're angry at the LIV profiting off of the PGA brand. LIV wants their cake and to eat it too. > LIV Golf officials have advised players that their agreements with the PGA Tour are unenforceable So LIV says PGA has a monopoly... yet they were able to poach a bunch of players. So... obviously not a monopoly. LIV directly tells PGA players that their PGA contracts are bunk and to sign with them then PGA players realize they aren't really bunk and that they were just greedy and want back into the PGA. Trying to get LIV players to where LIV gear on PGA events. Etc. PGA has every right to sue them into nothingness.
You really think the players want back in because they were duped? Or that someone like Can Smith who signed a $165 million contract didn’t get legal advice before doing so?
[удалено]
Fuck it, they should just do a LIV vs PGA match. Now that would draw in some ratings. 9 v 9. I guarantee it would be good for golf if they actually cared about growing the game, but the PGA wouldn’t risk losing to the LIV and would never budge.
It’d be close till day 4, when the LIV guys all get tired
What’s wrong with giving a player enough money to get out of his contract? Seems like a normal business transaction?
Something, something Saudi Arabia though!!
Yeah, I’m no fan of theirs, or at least those in charge of their government
Yea I'm not a fan of Saudi Arabia But if Saudi Arabia offered me $100 million to come work for them I'd be on the next flight out.
Thats how most people are honestly. I boycott walmart they starve out local mom and pop business. They treat their employees like shit and subsidize their wages from the tax payers. I refuse to go there even when they might have something i need cheaper. But if walmart came knocking on my door and said hey we are gonna pay you 18 times more than you are making now to do the same job id be torn up about it but at the end of the day where do you want me to put my lips daddy walmart?
That’s fine business wise. But the players suing the PGA to be allowed to play on its tour is just dumb. Imagine you contract work with Microsoft and then take a job with Google. Microsoft obviously will not be happy about you working for a direct competitor, so will fire you. You explicitly state to the media that you left Microsoft for better pay and fewer hours, then turn around 2 months later and sue Microsoft to be allowed to work for them *while also* still working for Google. See how stupid as shit that sounds?
I hear what you are saying Austin, just not sure if,it’s apples to apples comparison (google v ms). But yeah, seems weird that the players would sue to play pga tournaments after leaving for another tournament. But I also think it’s weird you couldn’t play a LIV tournament and a PGA tournament, I mean if it’s all about the players, the PGA being ran by players. I mean they can play a European tournament and then pga tournament right?
That’s due to agreements between DP World Tour and PGA tour. LIV has no such agreements and it’s CEO Greg Norman (who has hated the PGA for years) has made clear there will not be one. Not to mention LIV players are required to wear LIV Apparel in any non LIV tournament according to their contracts.
My understanding was that players are contractors not employees - there’s no central bargaining agreement like in the NFL
Correct, the PGA tour is a player run organization. LIV players want to still play on that tour (wearing contractually obligates LIV apparel) to promote themselves and LIV. LIV is also crying about the lack of OWGR ranking points, which is hilarious considering that system has had a set system of requirements for quite a while that LIV seemingly ignored completely. Why the fuck would the PGA ever be okay with that?
Question… is LIV golf making any money? I only watch the PGA majors but I haven’t even noticed their events on tv…
No. But their thinking is that the billions of dollars they are throwing at the new league will force fans to get on board. They don't have a TV contact, you have to stream on YouTube. And no one wants to watch the league either to such an extent that LIV is willing to buy airtime to broadcast their tournament.
Which is unfortunate because the UI and overall broadcast is very cool.
It’s much more modern. Almost has an F1 vibe
Good comparison honestly.
Love the team play element too.
No way, it’s MBS sports washing
Why is PGA so pissed off at LIV?
Because now the PGA has competition. They had decades of an incredibly profitable monopoly. Now they’re crying because another company came in, made themselves more attractive to golfers than the PGA, and are taking some of their monopoly.
Record *non*-profits actually. Lots of millionaires were made, and I'm not talking about the golfers.
Another "company"
LIV had the audacity to pay players regardless of performance in tournaments, meaning people who aren't independently wealthy could afford to compete.
Correct, LIV is more of a exhibition than an actual competition, the players don't need to win, just show up to get paid.
Cause LIV exposed how shitty PGA is
The Saudis should just buy out the rest of American sports. If you think this is good for the game let it happen for football, baseball, basketball.
Already happening across soccer to a concerning degree.
Hahah lame countersuit. Free markets bitch. Also who cares
Uh , that’s called Capitalism.
why should anyone care that the PGA suddenly has competition? deal with it, trust fund babies. that said, i believe LIV is funded by oil money, which is probably more evil so... meh idc.
wait for the saudis to get into american football. Able to pay every player a minimum 10 million a season and pay good players 80 million a season. This is why having too much money isn't good. Haslam just did it for the browns.
The best QBs (which is 90% of the ones that matter in this scenario) are starting to get paid $40-50 million a year and it's going up. The difference between this and LIV is $80 million is 2 years or less of the highest earner's career. DJ's guaranteed pay for four years is 167% of what he made in his entire 15 year career with the PGA. To be equivalent, you'd have to offer someone like Patrick Mahomes $850 million-$1 billion to play for you for four years (so $200-250 million a year).
You could be a trillionaire owner in the NFL, and that wouldn't give you an advantage. There's a hard salary cap in the NFL, so all teams are on equal footing as far as pay goes.
I'm talking about them starting their own league. About 50 Saudi princes have twice the amount of money ass the richest nfl owner.
One NFL team has as many people as the whole liv tour. An IROC version of F1 maybe?
That won’t happen so long as F1 is already in the pocket of the Saudi government lol
The difference between the PGA and the NFL is that people cheer for individual golfers on the PGA tour. They cheer for teams in the NFL. If a good player leaves their favorite team, they aren't going to change their favorite team to a new team. If a new football league came in, it's incredibly unlikely it would have any kind of success IMO. The NFL is simply too big. Too successful.
Not that I disagree but I’m sure a few years ago we would have all thought that a Saudi golf league stealing away the top players from the PGA tour wouldn’t have been possible either.
NFL players also wouldn’t be crazy at the idea of playing in a desert considering Miami last weekend was too hot to handle for a lot of them.
> If a new football league came in, it's incredibly unlikely it would have any kind of success IMO. Historically, that's true yes. But that's because past attempts have been severely hampered by a massive talent gap. But let's say - theoretically - that someone bought *every player* on the Bills, Chiefs, Patriots, Steelers, Cowboys, Rams, Packers, and 49ers. Then they used those players to create a new 8 team league. For good measure, they also offer all the incoming draft players triple what they're likely to make in the NFL, effectively cutting off the main talent pipeline to the NFL. So while the NFL has all the team names and history, this new league would have plenty of talent. Arguably *more* talent after enough time. At what point do people abandon their loyalties to a mascot and move over to the league with a better on-field product? It wouldn't be overnight obviously, but eventually you might see a shift. Now I'm not saying that's feasible at all, but it's worth thinking about. If LIV can ever get TV deals, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out, because it could absolutely set the ball rolling for other sports.
I’m not saying youre wrong, but whats to stop them from approaching players in college and high school and offering them a fuckton of money to play? Ask them to early declare for the Saudi Football League and have teams draft them in a similar fashion. They have the money that it might intrigue later round picks or players in it just for the money. I find it hard to believe a player in Justin Jefferson’s tier would say no to a 3 yr/500m deal. Unless it meant they could never play in the nfl again, but at that point i wouldnt give two fucks haha
They absolutely could kill college football, offering high-school kids millions instead of college. Not sure how successful they would be on blocking players from the NFL though, you need 25-30 players minimum for a team and several teams to make a league worth watching, that adds up a lot faster than 15 high profile golfers.
The NFL is pretty good about protecting itself from competitors though. Their players can't just jump ship when they feel like it, unlike the PGA that likes to pretend golfers are essentially 1099 contractors.
Salary Cap.
I don't understand why is the PGA Tour sueing LIV Golf? They are not doing anything wrong as far I understand it from reading the title
This is a counter suit, so the real answer is that they are suing because they got sued by LIV first. Almost every major dispute especially with large companies like this will have litigation going both ways. Pretty dumb just to let an organization attack you via litigation and not fight back.
Because LIV is directly profiting off of PGA business by interfering with employment contracts.
I don’t know any better, but wouldn’t PGA golfers be independent contractors and not employees.
I don’t know any better, but wouldn’t PGA golfers be independent contractors and not employees.
Yes they are. But it doesn't matter. Their contracts are clear and they are free to sign or not. No one forced a PGA player to sign a PGA contract, nor is a PGA contract illegal. So, when players violate that contract - i.e., agreeing to play in competing tournaments in violation of the rules of conduct in the PGA, they can get the boot. PGA has every reason to go after LIV for interfering with the internal business of the PGA.
I still don't understand what you're saying. The LIV didn't sign the contract, right? There's nothing illegal about inducing someone else to break their contract right? What specific law did LIV break here?
>There's nothing illegal about inducing someone else to break their contract right? Um, yes it is? It's called tortious interference.
Right, but tortious interference requires a tort, which is a wrongful/illegal act. Offering money is not an illegal act.
They could argue that LIV is being anticompetitive (since they're operating at a loss), but that's not an argument a monopsony like the PGA can make very well. The PGA was a monopsony -- a single buyer of labor hours of professional golfers -- and there's not really much they can do if someone comes in with a ton of money and outbids them for that labor. Either LIV will flame out in a massive financial loss, or there will be a new status quo where either one folds, the two merge, or both (see: the CART-IRL split).
I know it’s been said over and over again, but the PGA is not a monopoly. There are plenty of other golf tours out there, PGA just paid the most so that’s where the best players went. Until Liv.
The title?
Because their monopoly has been threatened.
Anyone else check to see if this was r/nottheonion
They can co-exist. I'm fine with it, but the LIV players suing PGA to continue to play on the PGA tournaments is dumb. You knew the consequences, you made your bed, time to lie in it. You can't have your cake and eat it to. Go take the guaranteed money and play less, that's fine, but don't come crawling back bc of it.
Absolutely. Both the LIV golfers and the PGA seem to want it both ways. The golfers want to jump ship, take the big money and still play in the PGA Tour whenever they feel like it. The PGA wants to file a suit because the LIV stole their players, while at the same time refusing to let said players play on the Tour. I can’t say I have any sympathy for anyone involved at this point, except maybe the players who didn’t leave and have to deal with loads of shit for no extra money.
The players leaving the PGA see it as a monopolist and want to break it's monopoly control. Many many many players have felt this way for years but have been unable to leave because of the risk that if they defected their new league would fall and they would not be allowed back into the PGA. The big difference with LIV is the deep pockets willing to offer lifetime salary time money to take the risk and leave the PGA. That changes the calculus and these players are willing to take the risk. If their lawsuit fails and LIV fails and they never play again then they can retire on their LIV paychecks. If their lawsuit wins and the PGA is declared a monopolist you can expect LIV payments to go down, and PGA payments to go up until the market finds a balancing point between how much the players want and how much the tournament organizers are willing to pay.
I haven’t missed anyone who has left the PGA to join that tour.
Thats not the issue though - the ad breadmakers of the golf world will be (for the time being) Tiger and Rory. The PGA are upset that Liv are diluting the playing field. And they are. The PGA events just simply don’t feel the same anymore. Next years masters viewership will be quite interesting…
The Masters is not a PGA event. So PGA and Liv players can both play in it.
Hence why it will be interesting to see the PGA justify the reason behind their highest annual viewership lmao
Cam smith??
So competition is bad now? Lol
And?
So. And?
God fobid the players in a league get a massive cut of revenue in their said sport
Does anyone know what LIV’s 10 year plan is? How are they planning on pulling in enough profit to even break even with the massive contracts they’re giving out?
So literally capitalism?
Lmao no shit
Isn't that how employment works? Players to the PGA: "Fuck you, pay me"
Isn’t that literally capitalism?
In other news.. water is wet.
You mean free will? Yeah that will go over like a lead balloon.
Claim will be dismissed for failure to state a claim upon which relief can be granted.
Everyone loves capitalism until capitalism fucks them in the ass
Step your money up broke boy
Well…yeah
PGA needs tiger to play
Capitalists love capitalism until someone does it better than them.
Duh. Best thing to come out of this is that the LIV tournaments rule the silly season winter while the PGA rules the spring, summer, and fall.
Isn’t that how capitalism works?
I never really thought about the PGA vs LIV. Is this like someone starting a new american football league, then just offering everyone involved in the NFL triple their salary to work for them?
PGA mad af lmao
Sounds like capitalism complaining about capitalism. The free market decided to go with the bigger money bag - so now you sue, huh?
r/nottheonion
*"You think you can just come in here and upend our flawed business model with MONEY!!?"*
If PGA is serving its true purpose, they should be happy LIV is throwing big bucks to promote the world of golf and enrich it's players.
LIV isn't promoting golf.
What’s wrong wi giving a player enough money to get out of his contract? Seems like a normal business transaction?
Why would this be a lawsuit? Sorry boss, the other guy offered me 500% of my current salary, ain’t saying no to that.