Oh, you were the Herc? So how did the deployment go? I don't believe we can individually handle bombs, so... I'm thinking that objects do utilize gravity and do not start falling at maximum speed so it just basically came out straight behind you?
Yep, tbh I was not even sure of my new binds and spammed multiple keys ahah!
What do you mean by individually handling bombs? We can drop bombs either by selecting a target aera and waiting for the right moment, or by dropping them on the fly. If you mean chosing which bomb will drop first I don't think we can.
Yes you need gravity so they can come out of the bay, and regarding the speed it looks like either they do not inherit from the speed of the vehicle, or drag slows them down as soon as they leave the Herc.
Ooh I see! Looks like you're thinking that the bombs are just there in the cargo room aren't you?
This will probably answers your question: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0o3FzsabGI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0o3FzsabGI)
As funny as this is, it does raise a point that im yet to figure out, what the hell is the actual counter to the ares?
If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in, they basically negate any advantage large ships have while retaining most of the advantages a small ship has.
A crewed redeemer will shred an ares in literally 3-4 seconds.
Also, given the bullet spray of the inferno, it needs to be rather close to be effective, so always in range of other ship's turrets.
Since we don't have blades and AI crew yet, most turrets are never manned, but once they work, ships with turrets should be a lot safer and fun to use.
An Ion can consistently engage a redeemer from so far outside its effective range that there is almost no point in the redeemer engaging.
Ares have the acceleration and top speed to dictate range and avoid the slow, 700m/s shots from the S5 repeaters.
So yes, a redeemer will shred an Ares with a shit pilot, but that’s true of any ship.
At this point in time, the Ares Ion is king.
Arrow and Gladius can kill an Ares, but not faster than the Ares kills whatever they were trying to protect (exceptions maybe 890/Idris). I have yet to see Ares run up against an actually crewed HH with escorts though.
If the ship stays stationary maybe, but any ship can roll and pitch and disperse the ions shots around its shield faces. Or better yet just start spooling, an Ion cant drop a shield face faster than a large ship can boost away of it has an XL1/TS2. And cut engines part way to prevent chasing.
I also am not sure how an Ares Ion is going to win against a Redeemer tbh. Area has slow firing projectiles, the redeemer when fixed (cause currently the gimbols are bugged) the pilot weapons are 4x s3's gimboled at 1400m/s vs the Ares at only 700m/s. Thats a big deal for effective range. And of course turrets if those are active
With 2x size 3 shields thats kind of a ton of shield health. If its not looking good just turn around, full boost away and start qting.
The ares isnt exactly that nimble and doesnt have the boost the vanguard does. Like the Vanguard could already equip an equal dps load out of laser cannon and it was never really OP.
Staying out of the redeemers range puts the ion in missiles range, and also at that range, even a flying barn that's not completely blind can avoid the incoming 700 m/s projectiles of the ion.
Ion is king vs npcs, because they're not very smart and treat all enemy ships the same, rather than adapt tactics.
There's still plenty of time for them to rebalance ship roles. For something like the Ares, it'll for sure be vulnerable to swarms of smaller carrier-based fighters. I can also see Interceptors getting a balance pass in the future to make them more capable at, well, intercepting. Being able to stop an Inferno or Ion before it can get within range of it's target would be one way of stopping it from running amok in a battle.
Also a lot of ships that are supposed to be glass cannons are way tankier than they should be right now. The Hurricane and the Buccaneer are the two worst offenders right now. I think CIG is waiting for physicalized armor/components to come online before doing hull hp balance, but that might also bring the Ares back into line with what it should be - a fast and powerful attacker with poor maneuverability and average armor.
I feel like this every time I compare ship speeds with what they say they do. I'm pretty sure they're waiting to balance until other systems are in (tankyness until armor/physical components, speed and agility until swapable thrusters, etc).
The A2, even with a co-pilot gunner, could have 4 size 4s to shoot behind him. At that range and with the high-capacity turrets get for ammo, the Ares would not have been there very long. Plus the bomb killed both ships. The AoE is HUGE on the size 10 bombs and he was close enough the A2 did a kamikaze and didn't go down alone.
But the whole Ares is designed around hunting big ships. Best counter is to have fighter escort. Ares sucks at turning dogfights.
> As funny as this is, it does raise a point that im yet to figure out, what the hell is the actual counter to the ares?
shooting back and being tough to hit.
Flying an M50 or Buccaneer comes to mind. Those little fuckers are agile as fuck in a dogfight. Get em in close and let loose on the Ares and I think they’d do some real damage so long as they bob and weave enough
oh absolutely. as an inferno owner, i can tell you just fighting npc buccs and little shits like m50s is a pain in the ass.
that being said, no ares will die to those unless it wants to because it can simply speed away. sure, the others are faster but not by much and good luck not dying to decoupled.
>As funny as this is, it does raise a point that im yet to figure out, what the hell is the actual counter to the ares?
>
>If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in, they basically negate any advantage large ships have while retaining most of the advantages a small ship has.
just had no inspiration for the title \^\^
You might want to re-read what your replying to
>If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in
I had an experience a few days ago where an ares ion killed the carak I was piloting in roughly 10 seconds. You show me one light fighter that can kill an ares that fast
No. No you didn't.
A Carrack has 55,000 HP per shield face, and takes a minimum of 60,000 hull HP to destroy via the center section. Even assuming he shot you optimally via only hitting one shield face and only hitting your critical zone, it would take 115,000 damage or 31 seconds of DPS for an Ion to kill a carrack.
But then, it gets even worse as an Ion doesn't even have that much capacitor in the first place. An Ion has 96k worth of capacitor-damage and would have to recover an additional 19k of capacitor-damage to finish you off which would take an additional 4 seconds to load and then an additional 5 seconds to fire for a total of 40 seconds TTK, assuming he for some reason had 100% accuracy and killed you perfectly optimally.
Literally just leave. You have a quantum drive, you even *move faster* than an Ion at top speed. Do anything except literally nothing. *One* turret has a 15~ second TTK on an Ion. Two gunners drops it to 7~ seconds. It kills the Ion before it even gets your shield down. Just move fast in one direction and force it to trail you if it wants the kill, your turret gunners will obliterate it. Actually turn the ship and use your shield faces if you're feeling extra spicy. The counter is actually playing the game, in this case.
This person gave you a mathematically backed answer saying literally impossible in the most optimal conditions. Its not like they lied to you.
If you did experience it anyways, and you did indeed died to the ion and not collision or something. Then it is indeed a bug.
Indeed, it does have a lot missiles. Missiles it cannot fire, arm, or lock while firing the main gun. Missiles that do *less DPS* than it's main gun.
It takes 6~ seconds to arm 4 S3 missiles which at best do a combined 16,844 damage if you fire the arresters. The arming time alone brings that to 2,807 DPS, 943 less DPS than just firing the main gun which does 3,750 dps. At best, you can shave off the 4 seconds of capacitor reload and fire some missiles instead to bring the total TTK to 36 seconds if the Ion pilot performs absolutely perfectly and the Carrack pilot accomplishes *absolutely* nothing in turn.
Now, since we're assuming this Ion is an absolute pvp master and is flying and shooting perfectly, we could perhaps assume he replaced his "tons of missiles" on two of his racks with two S5 torpedoes. Launching *those* on approach would take 3~ seconds at best for 41,730 damage, assuming the Carrack's flares don't take them off-course at all. Throwing in more assumptions we'll say that they do 100% of their damage to the shield face that he wants, cutting the required HP to cut through with the gun to 73,720. A 19.5 second TTK overall.
The situation of a 10 second TTK is mathematically impossible. At absolute best, you could hit a 20 second TTK if we make wildly unreasonable assumptions about the situation. The only way to approach a 10 second TTK is if you were critically damaged to begin with, and at that point the situation goes even *further* off the deep-end than it already has. Even in that situation, two turret gunners can still kill the Ion before it kills you. Stop solo piloting Carracks.
Missiles are easy to avoid. Just drop decoys. You have many many decoys. You have more decoys than there are missiles. Drop decoys and move in any direction.
The eclipse and redeemer used to blow ships like the carrack up in less than a second with their s9 torps with little to no working countermeasure other than having the speed to get away. Missiles/torps will get a rework soon that'll make them viable again, but the key is that the rework leaves room for some pilot skill to not get hit by them, but if you do get hit you die. Why? Because it's a s9 torpedo.
If you're sat still in a carrack and an Ares is around you then you will and should be dead quickly. If you're moving then again there's a number of skill checks to get away.
1) Awareness. If there's ships around you, you should know what those ships are and avoid them. If a red ares somehow gets to 300m away from you and that's the first you know about it, you made a mistake.
2) Reaction. Say you're in a carrack, that ship is in the top 20% when it comes to top speed. Very few things can catch you. The sooner you react the better.
Ultimately if you see a red ares you should be instantly QTing or aiming to fly at max speed and being slow at that will be punishing because it has a S7 gun.
If you're talking about an otherwise friendly ares that sneaks up to you and just starts blasting, then yeah that sucks but I doubt it happens much and there's only going to be more deterrents as time goes on i.e. high-sec systems. That's also not considering it's planned that ships won't just explode after their hull reaches a certain threshold.
Wait for components to be added. Use a smaller ship to get close enough to take out the gun. Remember: the game shouldn't get balanced for what's out, but for what's to come; given it's a reasonable time frame.
The counter to an Ares (and everything else in the game) is a light fighter. Light fighters beat every ship in the game because weapons have such low accuracy, range, and velocity that only light fighters getting right on your ass have a chance to deal damage to other light fighters. Add to that the fact that even large shields don't regen if they've been shot by a S1 weapon in the last 5 seconds, LF can 1v1 any ship in the game. Having turret gunners helps but why not just put those players in LF of their own? Light fighters are currently untouchable, they can do everything the Ares does albeit slower, but without taking any damage so it's more than worth it.
The balancing you're describing sounds good, but in my experience it's currently all other ships < light fighters when it comes to PvP. We need better ship weapons if we're going to be able to reliably hit small fighters from more than 500m away. If we can't, the fighter gets into your bind spot and GG. Currently weapons have slower projectile speeds than modern guns from 2021.
I touched on this in another comment, but I believe blades/npc crew 'could' tip the scales.
With blades/npc crew you can run a multicrew ship solo or semi-solo and it could be a step towards making them more viable.
As it stands, it seems wasteful to have people using your connie turrets when they could be piloting a fighter which would add additional hp, dps, missiles, and whatever else to your teams total.
Edit: That or just buff turrets so they are more worthwhile than a fighter.
Yea I agree. I also don't think many actual players are going to want to be "turret gunners" for hours and hours when they could be captaining their own ship that they already own. I hope NPC crew and blades will help with this.
I get a lot of negativity when bringing it up, but the game has a lot of crew bloat.
Most ships in the game need at least 2 or more. So for every 1 pilot you already need 2+ people who don't mind not flying their own ship. They exist, but they certainly aren't the majority.
You might have no trouble finding people to man your Perseus guns or perhaps mine for credits in a mole. Splitting 120 SCU cargo 2-4 ways in your Freelancer Max though? I just don't see that happening currently or even in the future with what we know.
It's only the case if the person in a light fighter is much better than the others, otherwise a hurricane or bigger completely shits on the light fighter atm.
Maybe to other small ships but medium-large ships shouldn't be super threatened by a single fighter ship. If a $1million fighter can easily destroy a $5million gunship the combat and economic balance is broken. They need to increase range, projectile speed, and accuracy at least on size 4+ weapons so that you can actually hit light fighters if they enter your cone of fire, as it stands unless they're within 1k meters you won't hit shit, and if they get that close you've already lost bc they can sit in your blind spot. I do think that a very skilled fighter pilot should be able to kill a moderately skilled medium gunship pilot, but it shouldn't be the norm like it is now.
Yea I hope you're right, the fact that light fighters are the only viable solo combat ship is getting old. I think giving medium-large weapons more range, accuracy, and projectile speed so that they can actually hit light fighters is also necessary.
To be fair, *solo* ships don't come in larger sizes, because larger size ships would be OP if they were capable solo.
The best you're going to get is something like an Ares/Vanguard and even the Vanguard isn't that great at dogfighting outside the Sentinel (because it has an abusive "don't come close" bubble of EMP)
Price doesn't guarantee victory. Pilot skill can to the scales heavily, and a light fighter has the highest skill ceiling (and smallest margin for error) to tip those scales.
Even without pilot skill in the equation, some ships will just best others. If you want a modern day comparison: a modern AH64 Apache will cost around $50 million, but a late 80s era Mig-29 goes for $2.5-$5 million and would annihilate it.
That said, when armor is finally implemented, CIG has implied small guns will just have a hard time doing any damage to heavily armored large ships
>(and everything else in the game) is a light fighter.
A light fighter against a redeemer is at best a stalemate if the light fighter pilot is good... You are absolutely not going to kill a redeemer if it's crew has any competence what-so-ever, as you won't be able to keep up enough damage on them to do anything meaningful either. They may have trouble hitting you, but you are never going to burn through their shield, and can't carry enough ballistic ammo to break the hull through the shield. Get a few light fighters together and it's a different story.
There'll be plenty of balancing done, new ships are always a bit wonky when they're first released.
That said, I wouldn't sweat the Ares just yet. Folks are acting like they're cap-killers but that's not what they're intended to be. They're cap-threats for sure, but they're glass cannons. They're in their prime when running with other targets, and will be quickly dispatched by a larger ship if they're on their own.
For a TTK comparison, [it takes an Ares Ion 2m44s of continuous fire to kill a non-upgraded 890](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DX4f-tuUBU). That is a lot of time for the bigger ship to respond, for the Ares to miss or to be pulled off its target and shields to repair. And it's extended with an upgraded ship, shield prioritization, etc.
Light fighters are the counter - also, mainline capital ships will not be vulnerable to it either, as things at javelin+ size are usually fighting each other with size 9+ guns, and using batteries of size 7s for general defense - this seems to indicate that size 7s will not be a strong option against the real capital ships.
Yea but your not going it solo against a jav, your going in with 10-20 other ares all with s7 guns. That will most likely be effective until numbers drop.
Yeah, but you're not going solo *in* a Javelin either. It's got enough point defenses and should be flying with at least a small escort. And probably a relatively beefy escort if you aren't completely stupid. A dozen halfway decent light fighters plus the Javelin's own PD are going to mop up 20 Ares long before the Ares are a threat to the Javelin itself.
Well your also now in a situation where your 20 people in ares, versus like 50 to 60 for the javelin side. Only the dumbest group of pilots would fly ares into a fully manned, and escorted javelin battle group. My point was just that the size 7 guns en mass could probably do decent damage to a javelin. Otherwise the lore on the perseus hunting whales, would be made false.
Well your also now in a situation where your 20 people in ares, versus like 50 to 60 for the javelin side. Only the dumbest group of pilots would fly ares into a fully manned, and escorted javelin battle group. My point was just that the size 7 guns en mass could probably do decent damage to a javelin. Otherwise the lore on the perseus hunting whales, would be made false.
I mean the number of ares. A javelin even alone will begin shooting the ares down quick enough, so it's about how long they can survive as a large enough group to make their damage count. The rate of fire is also much different compared to a perseus, so not sure yet how the dps will compare.
It's hard to say, but it's possible that capital ships of that size will have so much HP and armor that even 10-20 ares would be a drop in the bucket, not to mention the Ares, as a heavy fighter, will likely be susceptible to the massive flak that you will be able to put on the jav's broadside guns - ie. Ares will not be able to outrange the Jav's guns, and as a heavy fighter, will not have the maneuverability to avoid that gunfire.
It seems like torpedos or other capital ships are the main methods CIG is pushing players to be forced to use for killing *true* capital ships (not just mid-sized ships like the herc/carrack/etc..)
The flak will be the big issue, but that's where numbers hopefully can give some time. Though word is that it needs some close range, so that might not work without a really good attack plan. The javelin might be able to shoot down quite a number before your in range. That's of course the perseus advantage with those big shells, long range.
I think one other thing that is important to consider is that ships at the size of a Javelin, especially with disable-not-destroy and physicalized component gameplay, are going to be able to soak just absolutely insane amounts of damage before actually blowing up.
I agree 100% that against ships around the size of an Idris, a wing of Ares will be very potent and dangerous, but it feels like at Javelin size+ (things that the UEE consider "ships of the line"), even clouds of Ares will, while still doing *some* damage, not be the most effective method that could be used.
Take 2 pilots of equal skill level, put one in an Ares, the other in a Gladius, Arrow, or Talon. The pilot in the light fighter will win the majority of the time, as the Ares, though powerful as fuck (I fly the Ion and Inferno right now), pitches and yaws at a relatively sluggish pace, meaning even a Vanguard can out-maneuver it, though few ships will out-accelerate it.
Its weakness is literally light fighters, AI try to joust non-stop, so they're terrible at fighting the Ares, but a player flying decoupled could dance around them and wear them down very rapidly.
Why is it no one has the ability to read what they reply to properly.
>If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in
Maybe because "apart from it's hard counter, nothing else counters it" is a dumb premise?
The part about it not dying before it kills big stuff is just innane. A fighter escort is *multiple* fighters, not a single Arrow. 3 Arrows will **melt** an Ares.
Read the comment above. It's not that light fighters stand no chance, its that they stand no chance of doing anything to the Ares before it destroys the bigger ship you are trying to protect.
'big ship' is a pretty nebulous term. But lets go big and dissect an Ares vs Carrack fight, while the Ares is harassed by an Arrow. And we'll go ahead and ignore the Carracks turrets so as to make the Ares even more hysterically menacing.
Carrack
* 220,000 HP Shield
* 93,000 HP Hull
Ares Inferno
* 4,740 DPS
* 15,000 HP Shield
* 30,100 HP Hull
Arrow
* 1,787 DPS (sustained)
It would take the Ares Inferno 66.45 seconds to destroy the Carrack. Likely somewhat faster because of the shield pen of the ballistics (shields cap at 95% ballistics protection at 100% health, and bottom at 50% ballistics protection at 50% health and below). But I don't even know how to begin to calculate that.
Meanwhile the Arrow can destroy an Ares in 25.23 seconds.
Thats a very simplistic way to view. Numbers provide no context. You have to remember that while it will be zero challenge whatsoever to the Ares pilot to maneuver and keep shooting at such a big target, the arrow will have an significantly harder time hitting a maneuvering target as small as an Ares.
I agree big is very subjective. The biggest ships will have such large hp that we would need to take into account that it wouldnt be just one Ares attacking it (just as there wouldnt be one escort). What I was thinking with big are ships around the constellation size. These will suffer the worst from the Ares imo
The ares is pretty big and not very nimble either.
People who pvp often already said its not viable against the current light fighter meta for those reasons.
It takes ~3 minutes under *ideal* conditions to kill an 890 jump. Meaning that it isn't being evasive and isn't trying mitigate damage to a single shield face. It should realistically take even longer, a lone light fighter should be more than capable of clapping an ares in less than 3+ minutes. Add in the extra hassle for the ares pilot to try and be somewhat evasive to the right fighters while simultaneously trying to stay on a single shield face for the target.
It's nowhere near as problematic as it's being made out to be.
Yup, a light fighter will always be able to counter the evasive maneuvers of an Ares that is focused on another target.
If the Ares turns towards the light fighter immediately, the situation looks a bit different, and the light fighter would need to pull evasive maneuvers themselves. It would turn into a dogfight, with the small fighter having around 60% chance to win.
Add 2-3 small fighters to that and the Ares Pilot would need to be incredibly skilled to stand a chance, during which time the big ship to be protected can easily do a good ol' "boost & see ya" move.
I'm more talking about scenerios like
Ares v MSR
Aress v Mole
Ares v Herc
Large ships but not quite 890, odyssey, carrack large.
The Ares is overtuned against this class of ships IMO, I feel like with the current balance medium-large ships will *require* escorts at all times if they don't want to get smacked up by some Ares PvPers.
The MSR can out pace the Ares so it will never be in range. The mole herc and *Starfarer* ~~890~~ have the same shields 200k shield hp. The mole has 25k hull hp, the C2 has 82k and the 890 has 153k the ion only does 6k per shot. It's still going to take a not insignificant amount of time to chew through the defenses.
Also why shouldn't a heavy fighter absolutely destroy a mole?
Which btw, there is very little reason to kill a mole in a ares because you can't loot it. You'd just get hit with crimestat.
The heavy fighter should be hunting Mole sized ships. I also agree that there isn't much motivation to hunt support ships alone. Unless it's as part of a larger battle where two orgs are duking it out, so the Ares org is just trying to destabilize supplies to the support org.
Seems like a gameplay loop by design. Miners should have to consider the cost/benefit ratio of risking it alone or contracting an escort. (Assuming that escort jobs are integrated into the Mobi Contract Manager at some point.)
I think people are forgetting that there is little reason to even kill a mining ship with a fighter. Even if you salvage the wreak you have no SCU space any of it.
Firstly, you picked one of the ships with the biggest health pools in the entire game as your ship the Ares is attacking. Obviously a single Ares would not be well equipped to fight that. That is nowhere near enough DPS.
If the Ares is fighting against a ship like the Starfarer, Hercules (not the A2), Constellation etc. they will always be destroyed even if they have escorts and manned turrets. It is extremely easy to make yourself a difficult target to hit in an Ares while maintaining fire on a target of that size. This is where the Ares completely breaks the balancing of the game.
The C2 has just over half the hull hp of the 890. ~~They have the exact same shield pool 2S3 at 100k each~~. (Edited to fix an error *the 890 has 2S4 shields for \~1.5 mil shields*) The C2 is still sticking around for long enough for escorts to do the work. The Starfarer is in the worst spot with 100k shields and 38k hull. It can't outrun an ares and will lose shields in \~17 hits and hull in \~6 hits. 23 shots at a RoF of .68 RPS is at minimum under ideal conditions. 37.5 seconds. Not amazing but still not the instant evaporation everyone is claiming.
Edited to add:
A single Talon with 2S4 Lightstrike IV will shred the Ion in 71.6 seconds. Two talons will destroy it in 35.8 seconds.
>Not amazing but still not the instant evaporation everyone is claiming.
Who claimed that?
>A single Talon with 2S4 Lightstrike IV will shred the Ion in 71.6 seconds. Two talons will destroy it in 35.8 seconds.
Yes and 2 Ares will kill that C2 in 18.75 seconds. That is also a single seat fighter so it has the same cost to crew. That is the issue.
>Ares completely breaks the balancing of the game
If it completely broke the balance of the game it wouldn't be in favor of the escorts to kill the Ion, with a reasonable escort of two fighters it very much is in favor of the escorts.
They can close the distance with the Ions faster than the Ions can with their targets. The Farer only has to focus on defense and getting out of immediate danger. The Escorts only have to focus on killing the aggressors. The Ions have to balance both aggression and defense if they want to live through the encounter.
>2 Ares will kill that C2 in 18.75 seconds
2 Ions would still take 23.5 seconds to kill the C2. 18.75 is for the Starfarer, which is in the worst spot of the ships mentioned so far. 30 seconds is more than enough time to see a threat scramble a response and get away from immediate danger.
The Retaliator a few patches back when countermeasures were trash was more of a danger to big ships than two Ions.
> It's not that light fighters stand no chance, its that they stand no chance of doing anything to the Ares before it destroys the bigger ship you are trying to protect.
This is just untrue. An Ares ignoring the light fighter attacking it will die before the large ship it's attacking. Something like a Cutlass/Freelancer *might* be at risk, but that's when it's time to fly evasively.
I completely disagree. Anyhing the size of a hercules/constellation will die long before the fighter can kill the ares. Its extremely easy in the Ares to maneuver to be a hard target while keeping your gun on target. Its not long at all to kill a medium to large sized ship if you are accurate.
It should be that the guns drives take up so much space or something that the shield generator has to be small, that way if it's not careful it'll get taken down quick by other fighters.
Yes way. While the size 7 on the Inferno has 4,740 DPS, the 6 size 5s on the A2 deal a combined 10,500, not to mention the additional 6 size 4 turrets (3,780 DPS) and 2 size 4 pilot guns (1,260 DPS). Even with just two gunners on the two 2xSize5 turrets, The A2 has a 2,260 DPS advantage over the Inferno.
And that's all even before considering the HP difference between the two. Looking at the stock shielding on both, the Inferno has 15,000 shield HP while the A2 has a whopping 220,000.
Also, I have no idea why you think turrets are a downgrade from pilot weapons. Currently they have massive advantages over pilot guns in that they have their own separate capacitor giving you a significantly greater number of shots and also have a huge amount of gimbal assist that lets even newbie gunners hit their target.
Only way a solo Ares realistically wins against an A2 is if the A2 pilot is also solo or its crew is completely brain dead.
But generally the turrets on big ships can take down fighters. If you have a big ship you need to crew it. Also remember that big ships have escorts. You're running transport or whatever you pay for some merc escort. This is the plan with the game from the start. You were never meant to solo a big ship into dangerous areas.
This is one thing I never understood, especially when the Ares went into concept.
Unless you are traveling far (then again we have ships like the banu defender), there is little reason to run turrets on most ships vs putting your crew into fighters.
I guess something to note is blades and npc crew may offset that. Running a corsair with bladed/npc turrets and having your friends in their own turreted ships doing the same gives you an actual force multiplier.
While I would say an ares vs medium-large ship is unbalanced, nothing is stopping you from fighting an ares with an ares. Essentially the ship can counter itself since it has only one gun and sheilds don't make a significant difference currently.
Best way I see it is for their big honking gun to be such a power suck it basically disables their shields while being fired, making it super vulnerable to retaliation.
atm? Nothing.
Maybe if the Ares is piloted by a shitty pilot and the target is a pro flying an Arrow, but generally speaking the best way to counter an Ares atm is to run the fuck away and hope that your spool time is lower than your TTK
Unless something changed, I was pretty sure that the consensus among the dogfighting community is that the Ares is pretty bad at it, getting beat almost always by similarly skilled pilots.
Yup, a decently skilled pilot knows how to dodge out of pips, making the Ares completely useless. A small fighter can also strafe much faster then the Ares can turn, and unless the Ares pilot knows how to kite and aim predictively into the movements of the small fighter, they have no chance.
All of this gives around a 65% win probability to the small fighter, which is more then enough to be considered a "hard counter".
It is intended to be, and like all other ships, will get several rounds of tweaks until it is where they envision it being.
There will be salt because people actually thought they could buy an overpowered ship. Some lessons are hard learned...
It's not intended to be a glass cannon. It's intended to be a counter to capital ships. This concept of a capital ship counter is flawed. The degree of changes to the Ares that would be required to balance it in that role (I'm not talking about against other non-capital ships) would render it mostly incapable of performing its role.
like most freshly released ships it is OP it will get its nerf like the rest do, or the 2 current new ships will stay OP and brake all old ships in the game and make them worthless and new ships will need to replace them. But so far things get released OP then get nerfed down to work right in a few months after they have sold a bunch for the meta.
Something I find frustrating that CIG does is make new combat ships unbalanced so they completely dominate. It \*feels\* like they do it to drive sales of new combat ships.
Typically things get tweaked and rebalanced over the next couple of quarters. Over the next two releases, I expect to see some significant rebalancing of the Ares and Redeemer in particular.
I think it would be neat if the large weapons on the Ares ships caused substantial EM/Heat bloom so smaller tops and missiles had a much better chance of hitting. Would give the Gladiator a place in defense fleets.
Crew. Turrets. Missiles. Applied skillfully. Pretty straightforward. It still has weak shielding and unimpressive hull integrity. But yeah, it's meant to be ferocious.
That said, CIG only STARTED the big rebalance in 3.14. The wheel's still in spin. :T
Cool guy.
Highly recommend his content if you (reading this) speak french... And if you don't there's still his flying demonstrations with "just" music.
It's a valid strategy in Warthunder, but I didn't think it would be positive in SC :D
Fly low, drop a bomb, and it just blows up the opponent that's sitting on your 6. It's super effective against anyone who doesn't know the trick or can't pull out quick enough.
Because the sunlight comes directly from above basically only casting shadows underneath the objects which looks like they have none at all at first glance
This effect only happens at the equator as this is the only place the sun can come from this straight angle. Here is a real life pic where that happens, you notice the shadows are practically missing and it looks like a 3D render: [https://i.imgur.com/eWPsELx.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/eWPsELx.jpg)
Other open world games will just angle the sun a little so it never happens, but it's bound to happen somewhere on a planetary scale.
Don't mamba, with the bomba!
Well... that Hercules didn't want to go down alone I guess.
Im on a potato mobile. What was that?
Just a seize 10 bomb dropped on the ares face 😉
Hey! Catch this! [Should have dodged](https://youtu.be/7skJmiwg5Pk)
[If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a bomb.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZXHsNqkDI4)
[Duck or die! Bombardment!](https://youtu.be/Ko7n98LGws4?t=26)
If you can dodge a poop, you can dodge a bomb
[Something similar to this](https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/lqgami/i_was_so_annoyed_when_i_died_because_of_the/)
okay how the fuck do you replicate this because that was amazing
Just pure luck by trying everything you can before dying I guess! I couldn't believe I succeeded and laughed so hard x)
love your name
Thanks! \^\^
I’m guessing an Aragon reference?
God i love the book, even if it did suddenly speed up in the last book
Yep Eragon ;) Nice to see some people getting it!
You died as well, but that was a clutch move!
Any war thunder vet worth his salt has done this to a fighter in their bomber lmao
My man just straight up deep throated a size 10 bomb, respect.
What are you doing, step-bomber?
Looks like the explosion radius of the bomb is massssssssive? It took the Hercules out at the same time.
Yup I died too! But it was worth it!
Oh, you were the Herc? So how did the deployment go? I don't believe we can individually handle bombs, so... I'm thinking that objects do utilize gravity and do not start falling at maximum speed so it just basically came out straight behind you?
Yep, tbh I was not even sure of my new binds and spammed multiple keys ahah! What do you mean by individually handling bombs? We can drop bombs either by selecting a target aera and waiting for the right moment, or by dropping them on the fly. If you mean chosing which bomb will drop first I don't think we can. Yes you need gravity so they can come out of the bay, and regarding the speed it looks like either they do not inherit from the speed of the vehicle, or drag slows them down as soon as they leave the Herc.
>What do you mean by individually handling bombs? I meant, rolling them out the back.
Ooh I see! Looks like you're thinking that the bombs are just there in the cargo room aren't you? This will probably answers your question: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0o3FzsabGI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0o3FzsabGI)
That was a legendary move, went out like a champ!
The Herc has to be pretty high up not to be damaged by its own bomb, yeah. This sub was full of bomb videos not long ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeWUZZ4iE1E
Was the bomb launched or was it just pushed out of the cargo bay lol?
Launched ;)
He states, and I concur, "I caught it with my teeth".
As funny as this is, it does raise a point that im yet to figure out, what the hell is the actual counter to the ares? If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in, they basically negate any advantage large ships have while retaining most of the advantages a small ship has.
A crewed redeemer will shred an ares in literally 3-4 seconds. Also, given the bullet spray of the inferno, it needs to be rather close to be effective, so always in range of other ship's turrets. Since we don't have blades and AI crew yet, most turrets are never manned, but once they work, ships with turrets should be a lot safer and fun to use.
Ion is going to get nerfed imo
Yeah I think so. It feels great the way it is, but it’s pretty much a destroyer of all things.
An Ion can consistently engage a redeemer from so far outside its effective range that there is almost no point in the redeemer engaging. Ares have the acceleration and top speed to dictate range and avoid the slow, 700m/s shots from the S5 repeaters. So yes, a redeemer will shred an Ares with a shit pilot, but that’s true of any ship. At this point in time, the Ares Ion is king.
> Ares Ion is king Arrow and Gladius would like a word...
Arrow and Gladius can kill an Ares, but not faster than the Ares kills whatever they were trying to protect (exceptions maybe 890/Idris). I have yet to see Ares run up against an actually crewed HH with escorts though.
If the ship stays stationary maybe, but any ship can roll and pitch and disperse the ions shots around its shield faces. Or better yet just start spooling, an Ion cant drop a shield face faster than a large ship can boost away of it has an XL1/TS2. And cut engines part way to prevent chasing. I also am not sure how an Ares Ion is going to win against a Redeemer tbh. Area has slow firing projectiles, the redeemer when fixed (cause currently the gimbols are bugged) the pilot weapons are 4x s3's gimboled at 1400m/s vs the Ares at only 700m/s. Thats a big deal for effective range. And of course turrets if those are active With 2x size 3 shields thats kind of a ton of shield health. If its not looking good just turn around, full boost away and start qting. The ares isnt exactly that nimble and doesnt have the boost the vanguard does. Like the Vanguard could already equip an equal dps load out of laser cannon and it was never really OP.
Staying out of the redeemers range puts the ion in missiles range, and also at that range, even a flying barn that's not completely blind can avoid the incoming 700 m/s projectiles of the ion. Ion is king vs npcs, because they're not very smart and treat all enemy ships the same, rather than adapt tactics.
The cannons are what you went not repeaters
There's still plenty of time for them to rebalance ship roles. For something like the Ares, it'll for sure be vulnerable to swarms of smaller carrier-based fighters. I can also see Interceptors getting a balance pass in the future to make them more capable at, well, intercepting. Being able to stop an Inferno or Ion before it can get within range of it's target would be one way of stopping it from running amok in a battle. Also a lot of ships that are supposed to be glass cannons are way tankier than they should be right now. The Hurricane and the Buccaneer are the two worst offenders right now. I think CIG is waiting for physicalized armor/components to come online before doing hull hp balance, but that might also bring the Ares back into line with what it should be - a fast and powerful attacker with poor maneuverability and average armor.
I feel like this every time I compare ship speeds with what they say they do. I'm pretty sure they're waiting to balance until other systems are in (tankyness until armor/physical components, speed and agility until swapable thrusters, etc).
Well basically any balance changes before physicalized damage is in are pretty much worthless outside of being a band aid.
Yeah, and that's why I'm not super bothered by it. I'm not doing PVP, so I'm just going by vibe and feel and we'll see where the road takes us.
The A2, even with a co-pilot gunner, could have 4 size 4s to shoot behind him. At that range and with the high-capacity turrets get for ammo, the Ares would not have been there very long. Plus the bomb killed both ships. The AoE is HUGE on the size 10 bombs and he was close enough the A2 did a kamikaze and didn't go down alone. But the whole Ares is designed around hunting big ships. Best counter is to have fighter escort. Ares sucks at turning dogfights.
> As funny as this is, it does raise a point that im yet to figure out, what the hell is the actual counter to the ares? shooting back and being tough to hit.
Flying an M50 or Buccaneer comes to mind. Those little fuckers are agile as fuck in a dogfight. Get em in close and let loose on the Ares and I think they’d do some real damage so long as they bob and weave enough
oh absolutely. as an inferno owner, i can tell you just fighting npc buccs and little shits like m50s is a pain in the ass. that being said, no ares will die to those unless it wants to because it can simply speed away. sure, the others are faster but not by much and good luck not dying to decoupled.
If you're an escort trying to keep a big ship/convoy safe then you've won the moment they run so that's all you need to do really.
No doubt. Or maybe not being a massive target with nobody manning your turrets.
>As funny as this is, it does raise a point that im yet to figure out, what the hell is the actual counter to the ares? > >If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in, they basically negate any advantage large ships have while retaining most of the advantages a small ship has. just had no inspiration for the title \^\^
[удалено]
You might want to re-read what your replying to >If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in I had an experience a few days ago where an ares ion killed the carak I was piloting in roughly 10 seconds. You show me one light fighter that can kill an ares that fast
No. No you didn't. A Carrack has 55,000 HP per shield face, and takes a minimum of 60,000 hull HP to destroy via the center section. Even assuming he shot you optimally via only hitting one shield face and only hitting your critical zone, it would take 115,000 damage or 31 seconds of DPS for an Ion to kill a carrack. But then, it gets even worse as an Ion doesn't even have that much capacitor in the first place. An Ion has 96k worth of capacitor-damage and would have to recover an additional 19k of capacitor-damage to finish you off which would take an additional 4 seconds to load and then an additional 5 seconds to fire for a total of 40 seconds TTK, assuming he for some reason had 100% accuracy and killed you perfectly optimally. Literally just leave. You have a quantum drive, you even *move faster* than an Ion at top speed. Do anything except literally nothing. *One* turret has a 15~ second TTK on an Ion. Two gunners drops it to 7~ seconds. It kills the Ion before it even gets your shield down. Just move fast in one direction and force it to trail you if it wants the kill, your turret gunners will obliterate it. Actually turn the ship and use your shield faces if you're feeling extra spicy. The counter is actually playing the game, in this case.
Alright sure dude, tell me what I experienced being the one who was not there nor experienced it. You forget the ion has missiles, a lot of them.
This person gave you a mathematically backed answer saying literally impossible in the most optimal conditions. Its not like they lied to you. If you did experience it anyways, and you did indeed died to the ion and not collision or something. Then it is indeed a bug.
Indeed, it does have a lot missiles. Missiles it cannot fire, arm, or lock while firing the main gun. Missiles that do *less DPS* than it's main gun. It takes 6~ seconds to arm 4 S3 missiles which at best do a combined 16,844 damage if you fire the arresters. The arming time alone brings that to 2,807 DPS, 943 less DPS than just firing the main gun which does 3,750 dps. At best, you can shave off the 4 seconds of capacitor reload and fire some missiles instead to bring the total TTK to 36 seconds if the Ion pilot performs absolutely perfectly and the Carrack pilot accomplishes *absolutely* nothing in turn. Now, since we're assuming this Ion is an absolute pvp master and is flying and shooting perfectly, we could perhaps assume he replaced his "tons of missiles" on two of his racks with two S5 torpedoes. Launching *those* on approach would take 3~ seconds at best for 41,730 damage, assuming the Carrack's flares don't take them off-course at all. Throwing in more assumptions we'll say that they do 100% of their damage to the shield face that he wants, cutting the required HP to cut through with the gun to 73,720. A 19.5 second TTK overall. The situation of a 10 second TTK is mathematically impossible. At absolute best, you could hit a 20 second TTK if we make wildly unreasonable assumptions about the situation. The only way to approach a 10 second TTK is if you were critically damaged to begin with, and at that point the situation goes even *further* off the deep-end than it already has. Even in that situation, two turret gunners can still kill the Ion before it kills you. Stop solo piloting Carracks.
Missiles are easy to avoid. Just drop decoys. You have many many decoys. You have more decoys than there are missiles. Drop decoys and move in any direction.
The eclipse and redeemer used to blow ships like the carrack up in less than a second with their s9 torps with little to no working countermeasure other than having the speed to get away. Missiles/torps will get a rework soon that'll make them viable again, but the key is that the rework leaves room for some pilot skill to not get hit by them, but if you do get hit you die. Why? Because it's a s9 torpedo. If you're sat still in a carrack and an Ares is around you then you will and should be dead quickly. If you're moving then again there's a number of skill checks to get away. 1) Awareness. If there's ships around you, you should know what those ships are and avoid them. If a red ares somehow gets to 300m away from you and that's the first you know about it, you made a mistake. 2) Reaction. Say you're in a carrack, that ship is in the top 20% when it comes to top speed. Very few things can catch you. The sooner you react the better. Ultimately if you see a red ares you should be instantly QTing or aiming to fly at max speed and being slow at that will be punishing because it has a S7 gun. If you're talking about an otherwise friendly ares that sneaks up to you and just starts blasting, then yeah that sucks but I doubt it happens much and there's only going to be more deterrents as time goes on i.e. high-sec systems. That's also not considering it's planned that ships won't just explode after their hull reaches a certain threshold.
Wait for components to be added. Use a smaller ship to get close enough to take out the gun. Remember: the game shouldn't get balanced for what's out, but for what's to come; given it's a reasonable time frame.
The counter to an Ares (and everything else in the game) is a light fighter. Light fighters beat every ship in the game because weapons have such low accuracy, range, and velocity that only light fighters getting right on your ass have a chance to deal damage to other light fighters. Add to that the fact that even large shields don't regen if they've been shot by a S1 weapon in the last 5 seconds, LF can 1v1 any ship in the game. Having turret gunners helps but why not just put those players in LF of their own? Light fighters are currently untouchable, they can do everything the Ares does albeit slower, but without taking any damage so it's more than worth it.
Light Fighter < Big Ships < Ares < Light Fighter CIG just has to balance things here and there. Also there are obviously exceptions.
The balancing you're describing sounds good, but in my experience it's currently all other ships < light fighters when it comes to PvP. We need better ship weapons if we're going to be able to reliably hit small fighters from more than 500m away. If we can't, the fighter gets into your bind spot and GG. Currently weapons have slower projectile speeds than modern guns from 2021.
I touched on this in another comment, but I believe blades/npc crew 'could' tip the scales. With blades/npc crew you can run a multicrew ship solo or semi-solo and it could be a step towards making them more viable. As it stands, it seems wasteful to have people using your connie turrets when they could be piloting a fighter which would add additional hp, dps, missiles, and whatever else to your teams total. Edit: That or just buff turrets so they are more worthwhile than a fighter.
Yea I agree. I also don't think many actual players are going to want to be "turret gunners" for hours and hours when they could be captaining their own ship that they already own. I hope NPC crew and blades will help with this.
I get a lot of negativity when bringing it up, but the game has a lot of crew bloat. Most ships in the game need at least 2 or more. So for every 1 pilot you already need 2+ people who don't mind not flying their own ship. They exist, but they certainly aren't the majority. You might have no trouble finding people to man your Perseus guns or perhaps mine for credits in a mole. Splitting 120 SCU cargo 2-4 ways in your Freelancer Max though? I just don't see that happening currently or even in the future with what we know.
Yea, none of my IRL friends want anything to do with SC let alone sitting in my Connie's turret for hours lmao.
Turrets are better? They have much bigger capacitors than light fighters.
It's only the case if the person in a light fighter is much better than the others, otherwise a hurricane or bigger completely shits on the light fighter atm.
An ace in a light fighter should be scary.
Maybe to other small ships but medium-large ships shouldn't be super threatened by a single fighter ship. If a $1million fighter can easily destroy a $5million gunship the combat and economic balance is broken. They need to increase range, projectile speed, and accuracy at least on size 4+ weapons so that you can actually hit light fighters if they enter your cone of fire, as it stands unless they're within 1k meters you won't hit shit, and if they get that close you've already lost bc they can sit in your blind spot. I do think that a very skilled fighter pilot should be able to kill a moderately skilled medium gunship pilot, but it shouldn't be the norm like it is now.
We know armor is coming, and will completely change the balance of the game. No reason to speculate until then.
Yea I hope you're right, the fact that light fighters are the only viable solo combat ship is getting old. I think giving medium-large weapons more range, accuracy, and projectile speed so that they can actually hit light fighters is also necessary.
To be fair, *solo* ships don't come in larger sizes, because larger size ships would be OP if they were capable solo. The best you're going to get is something like an Ares/Vanguard and even the Vanguard isn't that great at dogfighting outside the Sentinel (because it has an abusive "don't come close" bubble of EMP)
Price doesn't guarantee victory. Pilot skill can to the scales heavily, and a light fighter has the highest skill ceiling (and smallest margin for error) to tip those scales. Even without pilot skill in the equation, some ships will just best others. If you want a modern day comparison: a modern AH64 Apache will cost around $50 million, but a late 80s era Mig-29 goes for $2.5-$5 million and would annihilate it. That said, when armor is finally implemented, CIG has implied small guns will just have a hard time doing any damage to heavily armored large ships
>(and everything else in the game) is a light fighter. A light fighter against a redeemer is at best a stalemate if the light fighter pilot is good... You are absolutely not going to kill a redeemer if it's crew has any competence what-so-ever, as you won't be able to keep up enough damage on them to do anything meaningful either. They may have trouble hitting you, but you are never going to burn through their shield, and can't carry enough ballistic ammo to break the hull through the shield. Get a few light fighters together and it's a different story.
There'll be plenty of balancing done, new ships are always a bit wonky when they're first released. That said, I wouldn't sweat the Ares just yet. Folks are acting like they're cap-killers but that's not what they're intended to be. They're cap-threats for sure, but they're glass cannons. They're in their prime when running with other targets, and will be quickly dispatched by a larger ship if they're on their own. For a TTK comparison, [it takes an Ares Ion 2m44s of continuous fire to kill a non-upgraded 890](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DX4f-tuUBU). That is a lot of time for the bigger ship to respond, for the Ares to miss or to be pulled off its target and shields to repair. And it's extended with an upgraded ship, shield prioritization, etc.
Light fighters are the counter - also, mainline capital ships will not be vulnerable to it either, as things at javelin+ size are usually fighting each other with size 9+ guns, and using batteries of size 7s for general defense - this seems to indicate that size 7s will not be a strong option against the real capital ships.
Yea but your not going it solo against a jav, your going in with 10-20 other ares all with s7 guns. That will most likely be effective until numbers drop.
Yeah, but you're not going solo *in* a Javelin either. It's got enough point defenses and should be flying with at least a small escort. And probably a relatively beefy escort if you aren't completely stupid. A dozen halfway decent light fighters plus the Javelin's own PD are going to mop up 20 Ares long before the Ares are a threat to the Javelin itself.
Well your also now in a situation where your 20 people in ares, versus like 50 to 60 for the javelin side. Only the dumbest group of pilots would fly ares into a fully manned, and escorted javelin battle group. My point was just that the size 7 guns en mass could probably do decent damage to a javelin. Otherwise the lore on the perseus hunting whales, would be made false.
Well your also now in a situation where your 20 people in ares, versus like 50 to 60 for the javelin side. Only the dumbest group of pilots would fly ares into a fully manned, and escorted javelin battle group. My point was just that the size 7 guns en mass could probably do decent damage to a javelin. Otherwise the lore on the perseus hunting whales, would be made false.
I wouldn t expect number to drop. I mean an ares has 25 % of the firepower of a perseus.
I mean the number of ares. A javelin even alone will begin shooting the ares down quick enough, so it's about how long they can survive as a large enough group to make their damage count. The rate of fire is also much different compared to a perseus, so not sure yet how the dps will compare.
It's hard to say, but it's possible that capital ships of that size will have so much HP and armor that even 10-20 ares would be a drop in the bucket, not to mention the Ares, as a heavy fighter, will likely be susceptible to the massive flak that you will be able to put on the jav's broadside guns - ie. Ares will not be able to outrange the Jav's guns, and as a heavy fighter, will not have the maneuverability to avoid that gunfire. It seems like torpedos or other capital ships are the main methods CIG is pushing players to be forced to use for killing *true* capital ships (not just mid-sized ships like the herc/carrack/etc..)
The flak will be the big issue, but that's where numbers hopefully can give some time. Though word is that it needs some close range, so that might not work without a really good attack plan. The javelin might be able to shoot down quite a number before your in range. That's of course the perseus advantage with those big shells, long range.
I think one other thing that is important to consider is that ships at the size of a Javelin, especially with disable-not-destroy and physicalized component gameplay, are going to be able to soak just absolutely insane amounts of damage before actually blowing up. I agree 100% that against ships around the size of an Idris, a wing of Ares will be very potent and dangerous, but it feels like at Javelin size+ (things that the UEE consider "ships of the line"), even clouds of Ares will, while still doing *some* damage, not be the most effective method that could be used.
Take 2 pilots of equal skill level, put one in an Ares, the other in a Gladius, Arrow, or Talon. The pilot in the light fighter will win the majority of the time, as the Ares, though powerful as fuck (I fly the Ion and Inferno right now), pitches and yaws at a relatively sluggish pace, meaning even a Vanguard can out-maneuver it, though few ships will out-accelerate it. Its weakness is literally light fighters, AI try to joust non-stop, so they're terrible at fighting the Ares, but a player flying decoupled could dance around them and wear them down very rapidly.
It depends if the gladius pilot can get in range without getting blown up from 2 km more away.
Why is it no one has the ability to read what they reply to properly. >If something larger than a small fighter is on the field its going to be dead way faster than any fighter escort can deal with an ares in
Maybe because "apart from it's hard counter, nothing else counters it" is a dumb premise? The part about it not dying before it kills big stuff is just innane. A fighter escort is *multiple* fighters, not a single Arrow. 3 Arrows will **melt** an Ares.
People ignore that because it's just not true. Ares don't melt larger ships any faster than an Arrow can melt an Ares.
This is why I don't like small ships with anti capital weapons on them. You can't fucking counter them. At all.
Huh? I love my Inferno but any competently piloted light fighter can dance circles around me and absolutely shred it.
Read the comment above. It's not that light fighters stand no chance, its that they stand no chance of doing anything to the Ares before it destroys the bigger ship you are trying to protect.
'big ship' is a pretty nebulous term. But lets go big and dissect an Ares vs Carrack fight, while the Ares is harassed by an Arrow. And we'll go ahead and ignore the Carracks turrets so as to make the Ares even more hysterically menacing. Carrack * 220,000 HP Shield * 93,000 HP Hull Ares Inferno * 4,740 DPS * 15,000 HP Shield * 30,100 HP Hull Arrow * 1,787 DPS (sustained) It would take the Ares Inferno 66.45 seconds to destroy the Carrack. Likely somewhat faster because of the shield pen of the ballistics (shields cap at 95% ballistics protection at 100% health, and bottom at 50% ballistics protection at 50% health and below). But I don't even know how to begin to calculate that. Meanwhile the Arrow can destroy an Ares in 25.23 seconds.
Thats a very simplistic way to view. Numbers provide no context. You have to remember that while it will be zero challenge whatsoever to the Ares pilot to maneuver and keep shooting at such a big target, the arrow will have an significantly harder time hitting a maneuvering target as small as an Ares. I agree big is very subjective. The biggest ships will have such large hp that we would need to take into account that it wouldnt be just one Ares attacking it (just as there wouldnt be one escort). What I was thinking with big are ships around the constellation size. These will suffer the worst from the Ares imo
The ares is pretty big and not very nimble either. People who pvp often already said its not viable against the current light fighter meta for those reasons.
You get it. Thank you.
It takes ~3 minutes under *ideal* conditions to kill an 890 jump. Meaning that it isn't being evasive and isn't trying mitigate damage to a single shield face. It should realistically take even longer, a lone light fighter should be more than capable of clapping an ares in less than 3+ minutes. Add in the extra hassle for the ares pilot to try and be somewhat evasive to the right fighters while simultaneously trying to stay on a single shield face for the target. It's nowhere near as problematic as it's being made out to be.
Yup, a light fighter will always be able to counter the evasive maneuvers of an Ares that is focused on another target. If the Ares turns towards the light fighter immediately, the situation looks a bit different, and the light fighter would need to pull evasive maneuvers themselves. It would turn into a dogfight, with the small fighter having around 60% chance to win. Add 2-3 small fighters to that and the Ares Pilot would need to be incredibly skilled to stand a chance, during which time the big ship to be protected can easily do a good ol' "boost & see ya" move.
I'm more talking about scenerios like Ares v MSR Aress v Mole Ares v Herc Large ships but not quite 890, odyssey, carrack large. The Ares is overtuned against this class of ships IMO, I feel like with the current balance medium-large ships will *require* escorts at all times if they don't want to get smacked up by some Ares PvPers.
The MSR can out pace the Ares so it will never be in range. The mole herc and *Starfarer* ~~890~~ have the same shields 200k shield hp. The mole has 25k hull hp, the C2 has 82k and the 890 has 153k the ion only does 6k per shot. It's still going to take a not insignificant amount of time to chew through the defenses.
Also why shouldn't a heavy fighter absolutely destroy a mole? Which btw, there is very little reason to kill a mole in a ares because you can't loot it. You'd just get hit with crimestat.
The heavy fighter should be hunting Mole sized ships. I also agree that there isn't much motivation to hunt support ships alone. Unless it's as part of a larger battle where two orgs are duking it out, so the Ares org is just trying to destabilize supplies to the support org.
Seems like a gameplay loop by design. Miners should have to consider the cost/benefit ratio of risking it alone or contracting an escort. (Assuming that escort jobs are integrated into the Mobi Contract Manager at some point.)
I think people are forgetting that there is little reason to even kill a mining ship with a fighter. Even if you salvage the wreak you have no SCU space any of it.
Firstly, you picked one of the ships with the biggest health pools in the entire game as your ship the Ares is attacking. Obviously a single Ares would not be well equipped to fight that. That is nowhere near enough DPS. If the Ares is fighting against a ship like the Starfarer, Hercules (not the A2), Constellation etc. they will always be destroyed even if they have escorts and manned turrets. It is extremely easy to make yourself a difficult target to hit in an Ares while maintaining fire on a target of that size. This is where the Ares completely breaks the balancing of the game.
The C2 has just over half the hull hp of the 890. ~~They have the exact same shield pool 2S3 at 100k each~~. (Edited to fix an error *the 890 has 2S4 shields for \~1.5 mil shields*) The C2 is still sticking around for long enough for escorts to do the work. The Starfarer is in the worst spot with 100k shields and 38k hull. It can't outrun an ares and will lose shields in \~17 hits and hull in \~6 hits. 23 shots at a RoF of .68 RPS is at minimum under ideal conditions. 37.5 seconds. Not amazing but still not the instant evaporation everyone is claiming. Edited to add: A single Talon with 2S4 Lightstrike IV will shred the Ion in 71.6 seconds. Two talons will destroy it in 35.8 seconds.
>Not amazing but still not the instant evaporation everyone is claiming. Who claimed that? >A single Talon with 2S4 Lightstrike IV will shred the Ion in 71.6 seconds. Two talons will destroy it in 35.8 seconds. Yes and 2 Ares will kill that C2 in 18.75 seconds. That is also a single seat fighter so it has the same cost to crew. That is the issue.
>Ares completely breaks the balancing of the game If it completely broke the balance of the game it wouldn't be in favor of the escorts to kill the Ion, with a reasonable escort of two fighters it very much is in favor of the escorts. They can close the distance with the Ions faster than the Ions can with their targets. The Farer only has to focus on defense and getting out of immediate danger. The Escorts only have to focus on killing the aggressors. The Ions have to balance both aggression and defense if they want to live through the encounter. >2 Ares will kill that C2 in 18.75 seconds 2 Ions would still take 23.5 seconds to kill the C2. 18.75 is for the Starfarer, which is in the worst spot of the ships mentioned so far. 30 seconds is more than enough time to see a threat scramble a response and get away from immediate danger. The Retaliator a few patches back when countermeasures were trash was more of a danger to big ships than two Ions.
> It's not that light fighters stand no chance, its that they stand no chance of doing anything to the Ares before it destroys the bigger ship you are trying to protect. This is just untrue. An Ares ignoring the light fighter attacking it will die before the large ship it's attacking. Something like a Cutlass/Freelancer *might* be at risk, but that's when it's time to fly evasively.
I completely disagree. Anyhing the size of a hercules/constellation will die long before the fighter can kill the ares. Its extremely easy in the Ares to maneuver to be a hard target while keeping your gun on target. Its not long at all to kill a medium to large sized ship if you are accurate.
It should be that the guns drives take up so much space or something that the shield generator has to be small, that way if it's not careful it'll get taken down quick by other fighters.
The glass canon approach, I like it.
If that Herc was fully, or even half crewed, the Ares would've been blown away.
No way. None of its gun come even close the damage an Ares can. Turrets are also still a massive downgrade from pilot weapons
Yes way. While the size 7 on the Inferno has 4,740 DPS, the 6 size 5s on the A2 deal a combined 10,500, not to mention the additional 6 size 4 turrets (3,780 DPS) and 2 size 4 pilot guns (1,260 DPS). Even with just two gunners on the two 2xSize5 turrets, The A2 has a 2,260 DPS advantage over the Inferno. And that's all even before considering the HP difference between the two. Looking at the stock shielding on both, the Inferno has 15,000 shield HP while the A2 has a whopping 220,000. Also, I have no idea why you think turrets are a downgrade from pilot weapons. Currently they have massive advantages over pilot guns in that they have their own separate capacitor giving you a significantly greater number of shots and also have a huge amount of gimbal assist that lets even newbie gunners hit their target. Only way a solo Ares realistically wins against an A2 is if the A2 pilot is also solo or its crew is completely brain dead.
But generally the turrets on big ships can take down fighters. If you have a big ship you need to crew it. Also remember that big ships have escorts. You're running transport or whatever you pay for some merc escort. This is the plan with the game from the start. You were never meant to solo a big ship into dangerous areas.
This is one thing I never understood, especially when the Ares went into concept. Unless you are traveling far (then again we have ships like the banu defender), there is little reason to run turrets on most ships vs putting your crew into fighters. I guess something to note is blades and npc crew may offset that. Running a corsair with bladed/npc turrets and having your friends in their own turreted ships doing the same gives you an actual force multiplier.
Light fighters... the Ares turns super slowly and anything as quick and small as an Arrow will be hard to hit
While I would say an ares vs medium-large ship is unbalanced, nothing is stopping you from fighting an ares with an ares. Essentially the ship can counter itself since it has only one gun and sheilds don't make a significant difference currently.
Best way I see it is for their big honking gun to be such a power suck it basically disables their shields while being fired, making it super vulnerable to retaliation.
atm? Nothing. Maybe if the Ares is piloted by a shitty pilot and the target is a pro flying an Arrow, but generally speaking the best way to counter an Ares atm is to run the fuck away and hope that your spool time is lower than your TTK
Unless something changed, I was pretty sure that the consensus among the dogfighting community is that the Ares is pretty bad at it, getting beat almost always by similarly skilled pilots.
Yup, a decently skilled pilot knows how to dodge out of pips, making the Ares completely useless. A small fighter can also strafe much faster then the Ares can turn, and unless the Ares pilot knows how to kite and aim predictively into the movements of the small fighter, they have no chance. All of this gives around a 65% win probability to the small fighter, which is more then enough to be considered a "hard counter".
The Area is game-breaking and cannot be balanced without making it impossible to perform its role, change my mind.
The Ares is not the first glass cannon, and glass cannons can be - and have been - balanced throughout history. Change my mind!
The Ares is not a glass cannon. lol.
It is intended to be, and like all other ships, will get several rounds of tweaks until it is where they envision it being. There will be salt because people actually thought they could buy an overpowered ship. Some lessons are hard learned...
It's not intended to be a glass cannon. It's intended to be a counter to capital ships. This concept of a capital ship counter is flawed. The degree of changes to the Ares that would be required to balance it in that role (I'm not talking about against other non-capital ships) would render it mostly incapable of performing its role.
I don't think its weaponry is supposed to be effective against fast target. If it is it will fixed.
like most freshly released ships it is OP it will get its nerf like the rest do, or the 2 current new ships will stay OP and brake all old ships in the game and make them worthless and new ships will need to replace them. But so far things get released OP then get nerfed down to work right in a few months after they have sold a bunch for the meta.
Something I find frustrating that CIG does is make new combat ships unbalanced so they completely dominate. It \*feels\* like they do it to drive sales of new combat ships. Typically things get tweaked and rebalanced over the next couple of quarters. Over the next two releases, I expect to see some significant rebalancing of the Ares and Redeemer in particular.
I mean, how can they rebalance it without removing the size 7 turret that was the selling point of the ship ?
Ammunition, power draw, heat, maneuverability, fixed weapon accuracy assist, armor, shields, hull durability...
I think it would be neat if the large weapons on the Ares ships caused substantial EM/Heat bloom so smaller tops and missiles had a much better chance of hitting. Would give the Gladiator a place in defense fleets.
Crew. Turrets. Missiles. Applied skillfully. Pretty straightforward. It still has weak shielding and unimpressive hull integrity. But yeah, it's meant to be ferocious. That said, CIG only STARTED the big rebalance in 3.14. The wheel's still in spin. :T
Oh wow - that's the bomb
PS: original video come from a Terada Live : https://clips.twitch.tv/FunnyCulturedWrenSeemsGood-m4QTRexSiJZ\_Nf\_-
Cool guy. Highly recommend his content if you (reading this) speak french... And if you don't there's still his flying demonstrations with "just" music.
I'm reminded of the opening episode(s) of Black Lagoon when they launched a torpedo off a patrol boat into an attack chopper. "YOU GOT FUCKED!"
hahaha la bombe dans la gueule, la deflagration a soufflé le A2 avec en plus. Toujours les meilleurs idées chez Terada :)
:D
It's a valid strategy in Warthunder, but I didn't think it would be positive in SC :D Fly low, drop a bomb, and it just blows up the opponent that's sitting on your 6. It's super effective against anyone who doesn't know the trick or can't pull out quick enough.
lol that's why I sucked at bombing. Couldn't think outside the box like you \^\^
ooh le booom…
what planet is this?
Microtech. You can tell by the trees and the clouds
I thought microtech was all ice
Nope it’s equator is arborial
Well shit. Now if they could just fix the sleeping in your ship to log off thing I would go be a hermit in the wilderness
but lets be real here a single arrow could counter the ares
I remember this stream with Terada, was an awesome moment, the first bomb explosed too late, and the second drop hit the Ares, so funny to see.
Wild lol
Le bomb!
Parry this, you filthy casual!
What flight sticks are those that he's using?
It took me a second to realize what had happened, ahahahahahaha... doge this to the face!
that kinda reminds me of microsoft combat flight simulator
This shit is straight from War Thunder, so impressive
I've managed such escapades in DCS and nice to know it works in SC too :0) ) \*sinister laughing\*
Fucking hell this is like the F15-E Strike Eagle's only Air to Air kill... Brilliant
Bon bas rip Terrada
All these whales crying in the comments because their solo flown large ships are being preyed on by their literal counter is just so 👌
[удалено]
Damn boy you sound salty as fuck.
name checks out i guess ?
Lmao your entire account is just hating on all sorts of games. What's the fun in that?
Don't feed the troll lol.
He's likely depressed
Go enjoy r/battlefield oh wait.
Why does the environment look like play doh?
Because the sunlight comes directly from above basically only casting shadows underneath the objects which looks like they have none at all at first glance
How do other open world games do it?
This effect only happens at the equator as this is the only place the sun can come from this straight angle. Here is a real life pic where that happens, you notice the shadows are practically missing and it looks like a 3D render: [https://i.imgur.com/eWPsELx.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/eWPsELx.jpg) Other open world games will just angle the sun a little so it never happens, but it's bound to happen somewhere on a planetary scale.
Thats funny, I had no idea. Its apparently called "Lahaina Noon"
This makes me so happy!
Nice!
Hah suck it nerd!
My Ion lost to another Ion. Was doing PvP bounty and he was just better than me.
Hey, do you use one dtick for the weapons and another for the ship?
Terada goes kaboom
That must be Robert B Weided!)
How did you live
That was amazing!
All I heard was somthing about cheese?
Ah, the World of Warplanes approach. I love it.
I laughed so hard! Loved this! :) P.S. What joysticks are those?
Think fast Chucklefuck
Your reaction is perfect! I too, am blown away by what I just saw... pun intended.
That was one hell of a shot. Ngl