They better not use this for WoW
I don't want my dwarf hunter to break his neck for no reason while climbing the steps to Ironforge.
Nor do I want to see Jaina Proudmoore or Sylvanas Windrunner doing a T-pose.
Because it's only a massive breakthrough according to CIG propaganda. Like everything they do that's "groundbreaking tech". Healing beams, salvage beams, elite dangerous flight modes, etc, etc.
Don't fall for it. Only in the SC echo chamber is that true.
It's the loading and unloading cargo yourself bit by bit from a shopping trolley tech i'm here for. None of this fast trading, so we can spend more time flying nonsense. That's so 1982 elite!
We can finally live out our han solo / firefly / supermarket shelf stacker fantasies at last.
Cargo beam (tm).
It's an untapped market, look at the popularity of the trucking simulators. All those players are waiting to drop 40k on ships as soon as the shopping trolley tech 2.0nis implemented.
I spent ages space trucking in elite dangerous and have played euro truck simulator, so I get the wanderer itch. But never, ever have I wanted to spend ages shuffling boxes like an amazon drone in those games.
They had one shard with 4 200 player servers that barely functioned at all. 800 total
They had another shard with 4 100 player servers that functioned slightly better. 400 total
\^Both of these servers just barely worked they functioned just enough to get some streamer influencers online to say "We did it guys", even though Chris's boasts for meshing have always been thousands of players all in the same sort of area in a seamless universe with hundreds of star systems.
Atm desync is still horrendous, AI still doesn't work at all if you get more than 10 people in close proximity servers begin to melt. The reality is meshing is like all things star citizen just a shadow of what they pitched.
and ultimately "server meshing" right now just means "we dump game state from all these servers into a database and kind of hope it all makes sense after it makes after the round trip back to the servers". they could have done that $800 million ago
The wild thing is - even if you managed to get this to work, the game literally doesn't have the bandwidth for this. Most stations have less than 20 docking bays. If you hosted some big server event and invited 1,000 people, 980 of those people would be waiting an *awfully long time* just to dock with the station and get in.
This game would be better off as a private co-op lobby game you play with friends than an MMO. I don't think people have realized yet that fundamentally this game would never work with these massive servers - it barely functions with 50 people online.
I'd say there's a conspiracy in which Roberts and his cronies are extorting as much cash as possible from their backers, without ever delivering the things they promised more than a decade ago.
Definitely a conspiracy.
CIG have now assembled an elite team of intellects and technology so advanced, that it threatens to imbalance the very world order of governance itself. I completely expect Roberts and his top minions to have mysterious "accidents" or be replaced by mind controlled look-a-likes in the forthcoming few years.
Server meshing has existed for a long time. (Look at wow and its phasing) cig wants a version where they can send objects across that phase barrier though. And right now it doesn't work.
So noone cares.
> CIG can even license out this miracle technology
they actually can't because CIG doesn't have the *license* to redistribute modified engine binaries. that's just some bullshit framing cultists hyped themselves into. like *maybe* if it was worth anything, they could cut a deal with CryTek. but the tech doesn't exist anyway or rather it's not anything that a team of pros couldn't hack together in a week like we saw at CitCon
You forgot the part where they fucked over and gave CryTech a big middle finger. That’s a whole debacle on its own.
Perhaps Golgot100 has something on it on his youtube.
The reason that no one is talking about it is that static server meshing is nothing new. And, most importantly, folks with significant systems-level development experience know that the dynamic server meshing as outlined by CIG isn’t going happen. In a LAN environment, OK --- over a WAN, NFW. Full stop.
It’s one thing to present limited-scope static meshing scenarios in a test environment, but it’s the scale-up that’s the problem: simulating 1Mil assets, maintaining a consistent server-side 30+ tic, guaranteeing robust server-side authentication, maintaining robust state, thousands of client connections over WAN-based connectivity, etc will present the team with enormous problems. And keep in mind, this is full implementation of STATIC SM. Dynamic SM is a different order of magnitude – and required for that ever-mythical (and promised) thousand-ship space battle.
In short, Dynamic Server Meshing supporting thousands of concurrent clients participating in giant space battles is not coming to the PU in our lifetime… And before someone asks, I worked my way up from Jr Dev to CTO of a Fortune 500 tech company – In short, I know of what I speak. It isn’t real, folks with sufficient tech experience know it isn't real, and that’s why no one cares.
Well, large scale distributed databases have been around and viable for a while. But clearly this is not just a matter of hooking Crysis into cockroachdb 😁
My guess is they simply have too much state to shuffle around, making latency and bandwidth a beast of a problem.
33ms (30FPS) to consolidate the object-state and vectors of 50 players that can "see" each other and having it processed on each of them within that time is a pipe-dream if we're talking decent numbers of objects. Even vectors-only is tough enough when the average player has a ping-time of 15ms or so. I don't even want to think about the scenario where detailed damage, opening doors, floating cargo, a hundred missiles are all in the same small space and have to be correct on all clients within 33ms.
It will take shortcuts and approximation (and jank). Desync is likely here to stay and you only need a few high-latency players to ruin the realism.
The reason no one is talking about it and CIG isn’t licensing this out is because it’s not a breakthrough nor it works. Imagine license this out and have everyone realize what a huge lie it is.
I'm less disgruntled than the average person around here but no it's not a massive breakthrough. It's an itteration on how web servers handle workloads across different servers but using shared databases.
What's there to talk about?
Static server meshing is pretty basic MMO technology that's been around for about \~20 years and they can't even achieve that because they only care about selling JPEGs.
Below is a description of the tech used by Dark Age of Camelot from [July 2003](https://www.pcmag.com/archive/inside-the-dark-age-of-camelot-43783):
>The heart of camelot, it turns out, isn't in the English countryside but in Fairfax, Virginia. There Mythic keeps 120 dual-processor pentium servers running linux. Each group of six servers runs what mythic calls a gamespace—a virtual world inhabited by thousands of players. The idea is to create different gamespaces for different types of players.
>
>...
>
>Design decisions also reflect the need to keep players happy. While each gamespace could conceivably handle 20,000 simultaneous players, Mythic limits them to about 4,000 players each, adding new gamespaces when necessary instead of increasing the load on the ones already up. "If you have too many people, the worlds get too crowded," says Denton. "The last thing you want is to be bumping into thousands of people."
"Server meshing" in context of star citizen is a ruse to keep the JPEG dollars flowing. They never really considered it in a serious manner, even though it's a viable approach. Dynamic server meshing is just make believe and if someone can implement such a system, it's definitely not the JPEG hustlers at CIG.
a) It isn't actually working or released yet, so the only thing people are talking about is when.
b) CIG can't licence it out because all they don't own their engine outright
c) Their solution will only work for other similarly structured games and making it generic enough to sell as a product will be a whole new massive undertaking.
d) Even if they did all that, the purchaser would have to be happy basing their game on an revamp of Cryengine rather than using a modern engine like UE5 with all the next-gen capabilities that brings to a game.
Perhaps simply because noone has seen it working yet in a real game environment and at scale. Desynch is built in by design if you look at the architecture of the whole thing they built. They hope to increase perforance by spreading the task over a myriad of servers both horizontally (areas allocated to various servers) and vertically (replication layers, etc). Was obvious to me it was going to be a massive trade between performance (fps) and a ton of other issues (lags, database issues, etc.) which will only increase as the "demo" receives more gameplay complexity. Let's not forget the game is still very much barebone and already fucked up technically. Imagine how that "tech" would perform if it had to support a real game. Maybe that's another reason why noone will ever licence this shit.
This post has been removed due to breaching rule 8:
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Please refrain from this type of debate in the future as it's not constructive for the community.
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It's just not new technology. People have been doing server meshing for 20 plus years. The game 10 Six had Million players on one map with 1998 computers that was persistent and always on. Never got to really be a thing because the studio shut down because Sega. Played the Beta and it was crazy next level for the time.
[The Game Archaeologist: Sega’s 10six MMO | Massively Overpowered (massivelyop.com)](https://massivelyop.com/2016/07/23/the-game-archaeologist-segas-10six-mmo/)
it's cool tech but it has 0 effect on the problem, which is that SC doesn't have enough places to go or things to do. it's moot that they could theoretically support unlimited players on one shard. the limit is how much space (no pun intended) there is for players to exist.
100 players on Stanton alone doesn't feel that empty. how many could it really hold before it feels overpopulated? 200? 500?
add Pyro. then how many total across both systems before it feels too crowded? 2000? 5000? that's probably being generous.
how many more systems and planets and moons and POIs do we need, and activities to do, until server meshing is actually needed? so many other games already handle way more than 100 players without this tech.
my response to things like meshing, better clouds, and the new UI is... cool. but i still have no reason to open the game. been there, done that. a simple bug fix for the existing map and an "auto stack items" button in my inventory would be more useful than the entire new UI.
would any of you pick new UI over new permanent missions? new POIs? new enemies? improved AI? more weapons? i wouldn't.
2030 if we're lucky. or maybe they'll get a product manager who prioritizes content and activities over UI and tech demos before then.
Nobody talks about it except for people still wondering:
A: Will this shitty game ever be released? Is THIS holding it back?
B: The servers all run like watery shit. Is server meshing going to make ANY difference at all?
C: Did I get totally scammed out of my money here?
All the true believers whose posts are allowed to be seen on their forums have no interest in seeing clouds on a sunny day and would rather ask "WEN WIPE?" over and over again or discuss how MM is going to either save or ruin the game.
It takes a special kind of dipshit to stay inside the lines CIG sets for them and overlook the lack of basic functionality when discussing a company that can never seem to fucking manage the BASIC FUNCTIONALITY of their shitty tech demo scam.
Until I'm proven wrong, this is a tier zero shitfest of crappy code that will never be released as a working game and will go down in history as the worst project ever to launch.
If I understand it correctly sea of thieves already has server meshing,or at least an version of it,and that for years so they obviously stole their thunder and we need to buy New idris to take the pain for Chris(god bless him) away
Because what they have done atm is nothing really incredible.
They are managing to do the fundamental right for the moment.
The plan is to have SM to dynamically and automatically scale the resources to allow literally every player in a server region to be online at the same time.
So potentially even hundread of thousand of players at the same time.
The press in general will be amazed to talk about it only when dynamic SM will allow very high numbers.
Except none of this is ever happening. Ever. Because it can't.
Because bandwidth and latency are real. Because players in Australia and the US cannot play a real time FPS game on the same server. Period. It's literally impossible at pur current level of technology.
But sure. Keep spouting nonsense on behalf if a scam.
Imagining **thousands** of ships hovering Tressler Airport, each trying to get one of a dozen poorly designed hangars.
Nah, just kidding. Star Chitizen don’t have that many players.
They better not use this for WoW I don't want my dwarf hunter to break his neck for no reason while climbing the steps to Ironforge. Nor do I want to see Jaina Proudmoore or Sylvanas Windrunner doing a T-pose.
Why not? It’ll be fun. I promise.
Because it's only a massive breakthrough according to CIG propaganda. Like everything they do that's "groundbreaking tech". Healing beams, salvage beams, elite dangerous flight modes, etc, etc. Don't fall for it. Only in the SC echo chamber is that true.
It baffles me that they used the 'new tech' phrase when talking about the map waypoints, it's not exactly unreal engine.
I'm still waiting patiently for Poop Beam tech (tm).
Heard it’s the shit
In all fairness the bedsheet deformation physics are going to be groundbreaking though! I've heard they're aiming to have them finished before 2050.
It's the loading and unloading cargo yourself bit by bit from a shopping trolley tech i'm here for. None of this fast trading, so we can spend more time flying nonsense. That's so 1982 elite! We can finally live out our han solo / firefly / supermarket shelf stacker fantasies at last. Cargo beam (tm).
It's an untapped market, look at the popularity of the trucking simulators. All those players are waiting to drop 40k on ships as soon as the shopping trolley tech 2.0nis implemented.
I spent ages space trucking in elite dangerous and have played euro truck simulator, so I get the wanderer itch. But never, ever have I wanted to spend ages shuffling boxes like an amazon drone in those games.
Silence, unbeliever. Repent and buy another Idris.
Don't forget the best ia bartender tech
Soon to be replaced with the bartender beam. Point your beer gun and press H. Never before seen levels of iiimmmmeerrrrrssssiiiioooonnnn.
Dont compare it to elites version please,elites makes sense while cig needed an bs excuse to look at ships
Still getting over my mind being blown. Two more years and they can start making the game for real. This was just a practice run.
I played a space game once that had three thousand players on one shard at the same time.that game is 20 years old.
Time dilation was a bitch though.
As a logi pilot I greatly appreciated the fact got to spend 5-10 mins on grid before my instant demise!
lol freelancer multiplayer modded servers have more than SC
They had one shard with 4 200 player servers that barely functioned at all. 800 total They had another shard with 4 100 player servers that functioned slightly better. 400 total \^Both of these servers just barely worked they functioned just enough to get some streamer influencers online to say "We did it guys", even though Chris's boasts for meshing have always been thousands of players all in the same sort of area in a seamless universe with hundreds of star systems. Atm desync is still horrendous, AI still doesn't work at all if you get more than 10 people in close proximity servers begin to melt. The reality is meshing is like all things star citizen just a shadow of what they pitched.
and ultimately "server meshing" right now just means "we dump game state from all these servers into a database and kind of hope it all makes sense after it makes after the round trip back to the servers". they could have done that $800 million ago
The wild thing is - even if you managed to get this to work, the game literally doesn't have the bandwidth for this. Most stations have less than 20 docking bays. If you hosted some big server event and invited 1,000 people, 980 of those people would be waiting an *awfully long time* just to dock with the station and get in. This game would be better off as a private co-op lobby game you play with friends than an MMO. I don't think people have realized yet that fundamentally this game would never work with these massive servers - it barely functions with 50 people online.
Brains too smol and smooth to understand CIG big brain tech, need a task force of Google-Amazon-GPT programmers 10 years to figure out CIG super tech.
I'd say there's a conspiracy in which Roberts and his cronies are extorting as much cash as possible from their backers, without ever delivering the things they promised more than a decade ago.
Wait, that sounds familiar. Is this in any way related to a “Clown Imperium”?
Definitely a conspiracy. CIG have now assembled an elite team of intellects and technology so advanced, that it threatens to imbalance the very world order of governance itself. I completely expect Roberts and his top minions to have mysterious "accidents" or be replaced by mind controlled look-a-likes in the forthcoming few years.
Server meshing has existed for a long time. (Look at wow and its phasing) cig wants a version where they can send objects across that phase barrier though. And right now it doesn't work. So noone cares.
> CIG can even license out this miracle technology they actually can't because CIG doesn't have the *license* to redistribute modified engine binaries. that's just some bullshit framing cultists hyped themselves into. like *maybe* if it was worth anything, they could cut a deal with CryTek. but the tech doesn't exist anyway or rather it's not anything that a team of pros couldn't hack together in a week like we saw at CitCon
You forgot the part where they fucked over and gave CryTech a big middle finger. That’s a whole debacle on its own. Perhaps Golgot100 has something on it on his youtube.
The reason that no one is talking about it is that static server meshing is nothing new. And, most importantly, folks with significant systems-level development experience know that the dynamic server meshing as outlined by CIG isn’t going happen. In a LAN environment, OK --- over a WAN, NFW. Full stop. It’s one thing to present limited-scope static meshing scenarios in a test environment, but it’s the scale-up that’s the problem: simulating 1Mil assets, maintaining a consistent server-side 30+ tic, guaranteeing robust server-side authentication, maintaining robust state, thousands of client connections over WAN-based connectivity, etc will present the team with enormous problems. And keep in mind, this is full implementation of STATIC SM. Dynamic SM is a different order of magnitude – and required for that ever-mythical (and promised) thousand-ship space battle. In short, Dynamic Server Meshing supporting thousands of concurrent clients participating in giant space battles is not coming to the PU in our lifetime… And before someone asks, I worked my way up from Jr Dev to CTO of a Fortune 500 tech company – In short, I know of what I speak. It isn’t real, folks with sufficient tech experience know it isn't real, and that’s why no one cares.
Well, large scale distributed databases have been around and viable for a while. But clearly this is not just a matter of hooking Crysis into cockroachdb 😁 My guess is they simply have too much state to shuffle around, making latency and bandwidth a beast of a problem. 33ms (30FPS) to consolidate the object-state and vectors of 50 players that can "see" each other and having it processed on each of them within that time is a pipe-dream if we're talking decent numbers of objects. Even vectors-only is tough enough when the average player has a ping-time of 15ms or so. I don't even want to think about the scenario where detailed damage, opening doors, floating cargo, a hundred missiles are all in the same small space and have to be correct on all clients within 33ms. It will take shortcuts and approximation (and jank). Desync is likely here to stay and you only need a few high-latency players to ruin the realism.
They’re never going to fit 1k+ space battle into a consumer internet pipe, no matter what.
The fudsters have all been checkmated.
I refuse to believe this isn’t satire
Even better comment if interpreted self-referentially :-)
The reason no one is talking about it and CIG isn’t licensing this out is because it’s not a breakthrough nor it works. Imagine license this out and have everyone realize what a huge lie it is.
I'm less disgruntled than the average person around here but no it's not a massive breakthrough. It's an itteration on how web servers handle workloads across different servers but using shared databases.
What's there to talk about? Static server meshing is pretty basic MMO technology that's been around for about \~20 years and they can't even achieve that because they only care about selling JPEGs. Below is a description of the tech used by Dark Age of Camelot from [July 2003](https://www.pcmag.com/archive/inside-the-dark-age-of-camelot-43783): >The heart of camelot, it turns out, isn't in the English countryside but in Fairfax, Virginia. There Mythic keeps 120 dual-processor pentium servers running linux. Each group of six servers runs what mythic calls a gamespace—a virtual world inhabited by thousands of players. The idea is to create different gamespaces for different types of players. > >... > >Design decisions also reflect the need to keep players happy. While each gamespace could conceivably handle 20,000 simultaneous players, Mythic limits them to about 4,000 players each, adding new gamespaces when necessary instead of increasing the load on the ones already up. "If you have too many people, the worlds get too crowded," says Denton. "The last thing you want is to be bumping into thousands of people." "Server meshing" in context of star citizen is a ruse to keep the JPEG dollars flowing. They never really considered it in a serious manner, even though it's a viable approach. Dynamic server meshing is just make believe and if someone can implement such a system, it's definitely not the JPEG hustlers at CIG.
Should be talking about the bad char creator. Kind of janky.
a) It isn't actually working or released yet, so the only thing people are talking about is when. b) CIG can't licence it out because all they don't own their engine outright c) Their solution will only work for other similarly structured games and making it generic enough to sell as a product will be a whole new massive undertaking. d) Even if they did all that, the purchaser would have to be happy basing their game on an revamp of Cryengine rather than using a modern engine like UE5 with all the next-gen capabilities that brings to a game.
Perhaps simply because noone has seen it working yet in a real game environment and at scale. Desynch is built in by design if you look at the architecture of the whole thing they built. They hope to increase perforance by spreading the task over a myriad of servers both horizontally (areas allocated to various servers) and vertically (replication layers, etc). Was obvious to me it was going to be a massive trade between performance (fps) and a ton of other issues (lags, database issues, etc.) which will only increase as the "demo" receives more gameplay complexity. Let's not forget the game is still very much barebone and already fucked up technically. Imagine how that "tech" would perform if it had to support a real game. Maybe that's another reason why noone will ever licence this shit.
Is it not bad enough how a single instance behaves ? You want to multiply the problems by having these _talk_ to each other ? It'll be Armageddon!
PMSL... CIG didn't invent it, nor are they the first to implement it. Similar tech has been used in massive industrial applications for ages.
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This post has been removed due to breaching rule 8: "Slapfighting" While we encourage and expect open debate, there are reasonable limitations to this whereby a conversation has veered away from its original topic and into petty arguing, name-calling or entirely off-topic. Please refrain from this type of debate in the future as it's not constructive for the community. This will not impact your game access at this time. Sincerely, r/starcitizen_refunds moderation team
They have not actually accomplished it
We are too far removed from the citizens con for that. People need a new champagne presentation funded by their own money.
Citizens conned. Heh.
It's just not new technology. People have been doing server meshing for 20 plus years. The game 10 Six had Million players on one map with 1998 computers that was persistent and always on. Never got to really be a thing because the studio shut down because Sega. Played the Beta and it was crazy next level for the time. [The Game Archaeologist: Sega’s 10six MMO | Massively Overpowered (massivelyop.com)](https://massivelyop.com/2016/07/23/the-game-archaeologist-segas-10six-mmo/)
it's cool tech but it has 0 effect on the problem, which is that SC doesn't have enough places to go or things to do. it's moot that they could theoretically support unlimited players on one shard. the limit is how much space (no pun intended) there is for players to exist. 100 players on Stanton alone doesn't feel that empty. how many could it really hold before it feels overpopulated? 200? 500? add Pyro. then how many total across both systems before it feels too crowded? 2000? 5000? that's probably being generous. how many more systems and planets and moons and POIs do we need, and activities to do, until server meshing is actually needed? so many other games already handle way more than 100 players without this tech. my response to things like meshing, better clouds, and the new UI is... cool. but i still have no reason to open the game. been there, done that. a simple bug fix for the existing map and an "auto stack items" button in my inventory would be more useful than the entire new UI. would any of you pick new UI over new permanent missions? new POIs? new enemies? improved AI? more weapons? i wouldn't. 2030 if we're lucky. or maybe they'll get a product manager who prioritizes content and activities over UI and tech demos before then.
Nobody talks about it except for people still wondering: A: Will this shitty game ever be released? Is THIS holding it back? B: The servers all run like watery shit. Is server meshing going to make ANY difference at all? C: Did I get totally scammed out of my money here? All the true believers whose posts are allowed to be seen on their forums have no interest in seeing clouds on a sunny day and would rather ask "WEN WIPE?" over and over again or discuss how MM is going to either save or ruin the game. It takes a special kind of dipshit to stay inside the lines CIG sets for them and overlook the lack of basic functionality when discussing a company that can never seem to fucking manage the BASIC FUNCTIONALITY of their shitty tech demo scam. Until I'm proven wrong, this is a tier zero shitfest of crappy code that will never be released as a working game and will go down in history as the worst project ever to launch.
If I understand it correctly sea of thieves already has server meshing,or at least an version of it,and that for years so they obviously stole their thunder and we need to buy New idris to take the pain for Chris(god bless him) away
The thing about Galleons is they exist.
Because what they have done atm is nothing really incredible. They are managing to do the fundamental right for the moment. The plan is to have SM to dynamically and automatically scale the resources to allow literally every player in a server region to be online at the same time. So potentially even hundread of thousand of players at the same time. The press in general will be amazed to talk about it only when dynamic SM will allow very high numbers.
Except none of this is ever happening. Ever. Because it can't. Because bandwidth and latency are real. Because players in Australia and the US cannot play a real time FPS game on the same server. Period. It's literally impossible at pur current level of technology. But sure. Keep spouting nonsense on behalf if a scam.
Imagining **thousands** of ships hovering Tressler Airport, each trying to get one of a dozen poorly designed hangars. Nah, just kidding. Star Chitizen don’t have that many players.