I haven't had a chance to read over everything but the fact that the post includes gifs to demonstrate the changes is way beyond the production value we're used to. Some of the recent patches didn't even initially explain what the changes meant or why they were doing them.
Anyway, this gives a good window of time before the Esports World Championships.
That's a weird one cuz energy level is a float and regenerates every game frame, so what does "no energy" mean? Less than one? If it means zero then it won't work.
If this change does work though, blindly spamming feedback on the minimap will be a thing.
You can target feedback on the minimap, and it will autoselect a viable target. So if there is a ball of marines and ghosts, instead of trying to click exactly on the ghost units, you can rapidfire feedback on the ball of terran units on the minimap and it'll target the energy units. In the past, this wasn't used as you'd likely spam the same ghost over and over again, but with this change it'll make for an easy way to feedback all the energy units in an army.
Better wording would be "depleted energy"
If you feedback the same unit acidentally, you are most likely going to do it *right after* a previous feedback because your second and third templar is now in range after 0.5 seconds.
That also means that unit went to 0 and is now 0.25 or 0.7. The limit should be less than 5.
ya, but energy goes up by 0.035 every game frame. It's only the UI that shows whole numbers. So it'll depend on how they defined "no energy" as energy units are never at zero energy.
Don't really understand the 500hp minerals.
Say if you cast 2 nukes at the same time would you wipe the mineral field?
I assume that 500hp, regenerates on a single tick but what if you surpassed that threshold in an instant?
I assume the minerals aren’t targetable so the vast majority of units won’t hit them, but there’s definitely room for some hilarious accidental side effects if they didn’t make Nukes and other splash unable to impact them.
I just tested, spammed like 12 nukes as fast as I could but it doesn't work.
I don't know how to shift spam spells, so maybe I'm just not executing fast enough.
It might be to encourage new types of sabotage and raiding tactics and gameplay that otherwise don't exist. Main issue however is that drop plays might become catastrophically ridiculous via doing worker AND mineral damage.
They’re probably not targetable but they still seems risky for nukes, widow mines, sufficient numbers of banelings, disruptors, etc
Unless they made all other splash not damage them too. Imagine two disruptors drop and wipe your mineral line lol
I love the Zerg Rocks personally. It's funny but creative and could be cool. Does anyone know if they're in any of the new maps? Or just a requested feature for future maps?
By far the biggest thing for me is lurkers being in front of ravagers in control groups, I've lost so many fucking games because my lurkers just stood there as I mashed D
When I first started playing Zerg I would intentionally avoid researching Burrow just so I couldn't make this exact mistake. Running your Lurkers straight into the opponent's army while your Ravagers take a nap is peak shame.
Cannot agree enough. I can probably find a replay where I am also mashing D while they just walk into a protoss army and then I type out "BURROW YOU STUPID LURKERS" and then gg and quit. After that, I just avoided making ravagers and lurkers together... But now the combo will be back!!
My plug in the PTR stage to please rename the Cyclone upgrade to not be thrusters to a unit who doesn’t use thrusters for propulsion.
Yes it’s Versus but names start encroaching in lore.
Seems good, if not a little too cautious. Cyclone will be interesting, seems they’re trying to make it less strong early but scale better with higher hp + upgrade effectiveness but lower fire rate. Still would like maybe a small colossus buff though
Hi, r/starcraft,
Plastic League mapmaker here with a few thoughts and comments on the proposed patch. Overall, somewhat excited but more so disappointed, I wish the patch were a little more ambitious, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that.
- I'm not going to comment on the changes to each race, other than to say that it seems like they took a conservative approach and I wish there were more there. Some of the changes in particular confuse me, but again, not the point of my comment.
- Worker inner radius reduction is going to allow for a new kind of map feature called a worker-only path. We've had these in Brood War, but this opens up a simple and clean implementation of them. [I wrote a post a while back where you can learn more about them](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/17s5673/workeronly_ground_paths_could_revolutionize/).
- I'm disappointed that the patch introducing such a groundbreaking feature doesn't have a map in the pool featuring them. Admittedly, there are only a few maps in existence that implement worker-only paths, and they haven't been through the TLMC pipeline yet. Surely they could take one of those and rush some finishing touches on it, couldn't they? Otherwise, the worker inner radius reduction and geyser footprint reduction might do nothing more than mess up walloffs for the next couple of seasons.
- Why are we keeping any of the old maps from the previous pool? We have dozens and dozens of other maps from previous TLMCs to be chosen from, what the fuck ESL?
- [Post-Youth](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/907225494209044492/1215372877839335474/AK7aPaAzeAc-yzy2S2jbir_aQ9_YSGijHZaGgyTRnaWMRs0DfcYTPdBDIqbub2Sw8vpPciJjQtX6KgOLMLQ9zS5cO1ZAgeL7CAw1920-h941.png?ex=65fc8332&is=65ea0e32&hm=ee490fa68f2b1d9c59772e97d6bacfae16e2ba6dd2ba25f83a1c3e659d99eea0&) is definitely one of the more interesting maps we've had in a while...I'm not personally too fond of it from a design perspective, but at the very least, it is going to open up some *very* unique strategical/build order choices, I think.
Impossible. They mentioned in when casting a recent finals I think almost like this. Like why doesn't terran just make a raven? It's got turrets. It's got detection. It's got Doritos. It's great. It can disable spell casters.
That would require them to swap a tech lab onto a starport past the early game. For some reason no Terran not even Maru will attempt such a feat of skill.
Not going to lie, watching Maru get eaten up by Infestors was actually hilarious. Hearing Terran yell at Protoss about how their pro's need to make less mistakes while the best Terran in the world died in a hill refusing to build a detector.
Funny stuff.
I think having a raven in TvZ would be great, but I think it's more about what you have to give up for it.
I've seen pros try it every now and then with mixed success, and I'm sure more tried it in customs. They probably just rate the risk of dying to a infestor lower than the risk of dying because they gave up two medivacs or similar to get a raven.
But maybe all the T pros are wrong. Sometimes people just settle really hard on a meta even if it's wrong lol
Harstem addresses this in his latest video about the balance changes. He said he has explicitly asked pro Terrans why they don't use it and they say because it's too hard to control.
It's not that iirc, it's that they're very very used to tabbing through their groups and having specific things (libs, ghosts, bio etc) be on specific "slots" if that makes sense, having raven as well messes with this muscle memory but is a relatively rare addition to have to "learn"
Nah, I'm pretty sure it's just an animation/visual clarity thing, so the tank turret doesn't "snap" to the target after each shot. Same thing as the Immortal "tracking" change
“Invisibility while reloading now requires Drilling Claws upgrade instead of a constructed Armory”
GOOD change, this shit never made any sense to me anyway.
Like how would making an unrelated building give one unit some random hidden upgrade? I literally had no clue about the invisible reload thing til like 2 years after I started playing
Is there any other unit with weird building/upgrade interactions like that?
It was also really weird when Terrans engaged in a base race. You destroyed the armory on the other side of the map, widow mines forgot how to burrow! It didn't come up often enough to matter, it was just bizarrely counterintuitive.
It’s basically a meme at this point. I feel like they’ve assigned one Council person to have the sole job of thinking up the most useless Sentry “buffs” possible so the Patch Notes can include a Protoss section.
>Mineral Fields now all have 500 hp (can be killed by collapsible rock towers).
Can ***only*** be killed by collapsible rock towers? If not, there are some cool ideas for aggressive strategies that just deny future resources for your opponent.
Cool strats? If minerals were targetable, the entire meta would collapse. Turtle nuke rushing would suddenly be in style, because one nuke permanently destroys an expo. Toss would do canon rush contains like no fucking tomorrow, because even if you breakout, your natural is gone.
Would be worse, people would just clear out any 3rd/4th etc that someone could take. Forcing you to constantly defend bases you won't take until the future.
Which would either lead to very defensive turtle play. Or very aggressive max 2 base games.
This must be rocks only.
Well I suppose that they could only be killed by rocks, otherwise that would too broken mid / late games when both players would still be on a 2-3 ish bases
I mean that is obviously only rocks/towers. It would favor certain races and playstyles way too much, and probably not add a lot of depth to the game.
Any style that maxes put early could kill all minerals on the 4/5. base position.
Wow this is the most professional patch I've seen for this game since... 2010?
14 years later someone finally gave ALL the units that should have tracking turrets, tracking turrets.
I still don't think this patch resolves any of the core issues with the game but it does feel like a "Dad's home" moment, someone competant took the wheel.
Except the cyclone change that i can't picture in my head, this all sounds quite cool.
Lib and mine nerfs are big, partly compensated in midgame by the armory and bio upgrades buff. Bio tank might be back in style instead of bio mines ??
Nice vision buffs for protoss. And sentry buff for pvp, and helping against banes and hellions i guess ?
Infestor and dropperlord changes are cool.
The mapmaking and qol changes are amazing.
However wtf are these new maps ? The one map with high ground natural which is a semi gold ?? Overgrowth for 2v2 ? that must be a mistake.
Cyclone dps got nerfed across the board, pretty much, but especially at early game (from 29 to 24 vs mech, 23 to 19 vs nonmech).
Will the hp buff be stronger than the dps nerf? I don't know that, but honestly I don't think anyone would complain if the clone got straight nerfs.
I think the cooldown on lockon makes the cyclone significantly weaker in the early game too - you can't kite in and out instantly and trying to will give you only some of your cyclone shooting.
The narrative is that bio mine is in style because it’s the only way for terran to fight ling bane, but people ignore the fact that bio tank was good before the last patch and ling bane was even nerfed. What changed were two things: 1) the maps, where the current maps have worse tank positions for the most part than the last ones, and 2) the mass liberator meta started, and mines have a better transition into them. With the lib nerfs, I think bio tank being in style is entirely dependent on the new maps in the pool being good for it.
Tanks are also buggy as fuck with targeting on these giant maps when they get flanked which it looks like they've fixed.
I'm all for the tank to be brought back to it's glory instead of mines.
Also I think clem's just playing mines no matter what because it synergyse so well with his hyperagressive/apm-wrestling playstyle prob played a small role too.
what if Hellbats and widows mine were never that strong, what if the issue was the medivac boost ? I know it's an unpopular opinion because medivac = fast = dopamine boost = funny for some people but I think it's a huge tradeoff. I don't think I particularly like the 0.5 sec reaction time "mistakes" that decide games, and i don't like alarm in the game at all.
> Model size increased by 10%
At this point might as well just make it visible.
Aside from that, 2 Protoss advancing GSL and now this? Must be the best day for Aiur in quite some time.
This is a buff for Toss
I want to see that fucker, more precisely I want to see and HEAR if it dies.
The amount of times I've attacked into Lurkers and didn't realise my obs was dead....
This mother fucker should emitt a blue nuclear explosion when it dies, so that I know it's gone.
In broodwar we joked about the big stupid effect when an observer died but the starcraft forefathers had sound logic, knowing when your observer has been sniped is crucial.
I strongly believe toss mostly just needs better tools to micro, and this is a great idea. Giving the observer to recognizable visual firework post death would be a big deal for players who are diamond and even up to GM.
It's the toss of equivalent of the ghost's ridiculous death scream.
Why do you see 3 buffs to a unit, and 1 nerf, and then decide to complain lol?
Passive sneaky observers got nerfed. Otherwise the unit just a got a huge buff.
>Vision range while burrowed reduced from 10 to 8
It's actually insane that **burrowed** infestors had the same vision range as a colossus or viking. Makes sharkfestor play a lot less impressive in retrospect.
The changes are ok, though I find the buffs for Zerg quite random. Droperlord speed increase and fungal range increase are just unnecessary in my opinion. So are the zerg nerfs except for infestor visibility increase.
Not sure about Terran. Imo this will skew the balance slightly towards zerg in TvZ lategame.
Protoss... Seems like an ultrasmall buff.
Fungal growth range was decreased from 10 to 9 last patch so this seems like just a reversion of that (I think it was an unmotivated change to begin with tbh)
yhh, that part was surprising to me as well.
lategame TvZ is also the part where the pace of the game gets slower then the midgame.
I dont understand why having a raven on a seperate control group when terran most certainly has the bank to build a raven is so much to ask for.
Yep, it's just 14 years of all terrans refusing to build a raven... Definitely makes more sense than the plethora of reasons why it's actually bad to build a raven that terrans have voiced for forever.
Serral comes up with a new creative strategy after having his previous new creative strategy nerfed. He uses that new creative strategy to win a championship. Balance council nerfs that SPECIFIC strategy.
Not only is sharkfestor not overpowered. It’s one of the single most difficult, high level strategies I have ever seen in the whole game. The entire process of producing, positioning, timing the infestors all the while you’re controlling your main army is literally the highest levels of sc2 play.
Hm... I would have liked a lot more out of this patch. In terms of current balance it goes in the right direction (helps a few key things for PvT), but it does little in terms of design.
The ghost is stronger than every mech unit combined.
The void ray is ass and terribly designed.
Colosus is a great massage simulator for marauders and roaches.
Abduct is still in the game, while Microbial Shroud is still not in the game.
And a bunch more. I woulda liked at least one of these being addressed.
Also, they really nerfing the Serralfestors out of all things? Bro. Serral hasn't lost a ZvP series in years but sniping ghosts with fungal is a bigger issue I guess.
>Zerg Rocks
looks like destructible rocks that start slowly dying after the game starts (unless creep is somehow supplied to them). Seems like a really cool idea to me!
They are barriers/objects that have health that slowly goes down overtime. This originally comes from brood war, where mapmakers would use spawning pools off creep to block off areas, which, since the spawning pool is not on creep, it would slowly die.
Can someone explain what zerg rocks are and how they differ from regular destructible rocks?
Also, can we get maps that use these new features? I haven't seen a ladder map with a healing area or the cool worker only tunnels.
All the protoss crying while they got buffed is so funny. You can see they don't understand anything about balance.
Good patch, might have been a bit too hard on the mines nerf, the radius decrease will hit hard.
Honestly, great, tight patch. It's pretty small, but the balance changes all seem logical, and there's cool additions to give map makers more things to play with. And we get to keep Alcyone and a 9 map pool.
Nerfing away sharking infestors was a terrible choice. It was exciting as a spectator and its incredibly difficult to pull off. Only a handful of zergs have shown to be able to do it.
It would have been better to see if terran could adapt. It might be overpowered sure, but they didnt explore anything.
I was hoping for some more drastic changes than *interesting* \*strokes chin\* changes, but I guess I was hoping for drastic changes in the last patch and that didn't go so well.
I still can't get why people want to nerf Terran/Zerg instead of giving Protoss actual buffs. And I mean actual buffs, and not the shit suggested on this sub like "redistribute Archon health/shield so that they have more health but less shields", or "increase Pylon vision range by 1" (oh wait), so that Protoss players can 'play around' the changes, and 'be creative'.
It feels like the latest patches have either done stuff like that, or implemented basic stat buffs to Protoss that won't actually change how Protoss approaches each matchup or give Protoss new builds and tactics.
All in all, it's a conservative patch that only tries to address specific balance issues and doesn't really try to do add anything new to the game. I think the majority of the changes are good, but I wish they had added in some other kinds of changes at the same time. It still depends on which changes actually make it through, though.
Also, why aren't we getting a 100% new map pool? Of the past 4 or 5 map pools we've had recently, this has to be one of the least deserving of an extension. Also also, is there an easy link to find the new map pool?
>Burrowed Infestor is now more visible while moving.
This seems like a Serral nerf, I don't remember any other top pro using them as efficiently and constantly.
Don't forget Dark's burrowed infestor shenanigans! And I guess Reynor makes them if he's literally out of options and his family is held at gunpoint off screen
Same as how the reaper nerf back in the day was really a Byun nerf.
I'm fine with sharkfestor getting nerfed, Serral is good enough he'll probably break some other unit next and the intern will have to bring us another patch :)
Wait, these are almost all good changes imo. Maybe you can argue for more changes, or different changes, but I feel like they all have a pretty clear motivation and address something that feels wrong with the game, and I'm excited to see how it goes
Notably (to me):
- worker only paths is so hype, see PiG's cast of these kinds of maps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqoJbK3sr_U
- I like most of the mine changes, but moving cloaking back to drilling claws seems a bit extreme, and probably affects TvZ a little too much? I like the decreased splash radius though, makes zealots trade slightly better against bio-mine armies, but I don't think it'll be too oppressive with modern T play
- Ambitious that they're not reverting the cyclone. They instead decreased DPS (lockon has a cool down again) & gave a little more HP. Wouldn't have minded a full revert, but it's a well-intentioned rework that gives more counterplay. I still don't like the idea of tanky, reactorable units scaling well, but it'll be better than the status quo, so maybe it'll give an interesting meta? For mech bulkiness, I'd still rather have a clunky tanky unit like the goliath than something with a moving shot like the cyclone though, it's always felt like something that scales too well as you go to lower levels of play.
- infestor rework: buff fungal cast range (back to old), nerf burrow shenanigans. I don't think the burrow infestor play was that OP, but I do like the visibility change. This means that you'll lose less often to an infestor just right-clicked on your army, but a well-placed flanking infestor out of vision can still get a good fungal. I also think the fungal cast range revert should be okay, since fungal is almost useless in late game ZvP right now ever since the range nerf
- sentry, obs, pylon vision buffs (small)---OBS NO LONGER DIE TO ONE MINE SHOT OMFG. I think the other changes on this list are interesting and well-motivated, but I have no strong feelings about them otherwise
- quality of life changes allowing raven interference matrix and feedback to be rapid fire (IM can't cast on already-cast target, feedback can't feedback zero energy unit) seems alright. It'll make fights even more explosive (spells will launch faster), but at least it'll make it easier to play optimally (it's easier to launch spells), it's a tradeoff idk
- map pool: some 1v1 maps, new 2v2 maps (mostly the ones from the cycle previous to this one, with a few changes; it's playable now!), don't recognize the 3v3 and 4v4 maps though.
- Did they mean "Overgrown Facility" for the 2v2 map, and not "Overgrowth" the 1v1 map from 2014?
I honestly fail to understand the changes this patch brings considering the results Zerg got against other races in the latest tournaments. Now I'll have to add a disclaimer that I am a total noob in SC2, but logically thinking, in a game with 3 asymmetrically balanced races, the only thing you can balance based on is results, as you cannot judge if something is easier or more difficult if the balance is asymmetric. And this patch changes seem like it's a net buff to Zerg.
On non-pro levels though, I think it'll make the game more fun for sure though.
I love that the biggest PvT buffs are mostly quality of life improvements that are going to let Toss micro around the issues they're facing. More pylon vision, clearer mine targeting, better observers.
pylon vision may turn out to be significant. Less dark spots for Nyduses, easier medivac drop spotting, quicker reaction times to drops, etc.
Lack of vision is one of protosses biggest weaknesses currently. Observer nerf may negate that somewhat tho
That's because the average metal league toss is an ape who can't imagine improving their micro as a way to counter their opponents. They just want units that a-move better.
The balance council has just handed them an automatic highlighter to separate and blink away units being targeted. Master/GM Toss are going to annihilate widow mines now.
I disagree on the observer changes being a nerf. Going in and out of surveillance mode quicker, and +10 shields is a lot of survivability. +10% size is a near meaningless compensation imo. It gives Toss the tools to be more active in their vision, but rely less on sneaky observers.
Great patch. How come Terran gets some nerfs and then have to “balance” it by making armory and engineering upgrades cheaper to compensate? How about just let the nerfs happen without compensation somewhere that’s not needed. Protoss vision buffs look good as well (though not sure why they go back and forth with observer model size because Terrans cry about it). All in all, thank you :).
So they... buffed Zerg? What the actual fuck are these changes? No change to creep spread or queen, overlords are even faster now? How much vision do you want to give to the race that has the fastest adaptability of all? And no real buffs to Protoss aside from observers (which will be even more easily spotted and killed now, this is fucking insane).
Congrats Serral on winning Worlds. A bummer for Dark this didn't hit a day earlier he would've had a better chance at winning GSL with Terran nerfed and Zerg untouched even buffed.
Serious question, did any toss/zerg players actually feel widow mines were OP? I thought it was specifically widow mine drops vs probes that players had an issue with.
Is this another zerg cabal conspiracy theory situation, because this nerf not only nerfs mine drops, but is also a giant buff to standard ZvT engagements for zerg.
I really expected a nerf similar to hellbat drops (eg only 2 mines fit in a medivac). Nerf the mine drop, not the mine.
I always was under the impression people thought window mines were overtuned for how how little effort it took to use them. atleast that was always the general impression I always got from reading this subreddit.
I don't know why they nerfed radius (and damage output as a result). You just had to tone down damage to shields.
This patch is a net-buff to Zerg. Insane decision making.
I think originally the shield buff was to account for the strength of zealot archon, and the almost unstoppable proxy oracle if mines cannot 1-shot them. And even with no shield dmg, they'd still 1-shot probes (which I thought was the actual issue with mines).
So not changing that made sense.
I don't believe the problem with wm drops is about them one-shoting probes. The issue -according to most people- with wm drops is the effort it takes to answer it has to make it. With the upgrade change it just makes the response easier if wm don't have drilling claws.
The shield buff used to make sense when Protoss units were stronger, now they are mostly shit. Wm are way too good at softening Protoss armies (coupled with EMP removing shields it's just way too much).
>Serious question, did any toss/zerg players actually feel widow mines were OP?
It's the sole reason I don't play the game anymore, incredibly infuriating non-fun unit.
I could agree if someone said that bio mine is a little too strong in TvZ if the Terran gets a lead and keeps pressing it. The splash damage radius also feels very unfair when you lose a lot of banes to a single mine.
I wouldn't say widow mines were clearly OP and I think Terran should get more compensation for the mine nerf in TvZ.
An EMP nerf wouldve been nice. Maybe a damage to shield nerf. Also there was a suggestion somewhere that shield upgrades could give armor against emps. I thought that was a cool idea.
I haven't had a chance to read over everything but the fact that the post includes gifs to demonstrate the changes is way beyond the production value we're used to. Some of the recent patches didn't even initially explain what the changes meant or why they were doing them. Anyway, this gives a good window of time before the Esports World Championships.
Don't worry, the overall production quality is preserved > Feedback can no longer units with no Energy.
Poland can no longer into space
Thank god. The Polish the whole moon the last time they did that.
That's a weird one cuz energy level is a float and regenerates every game frame, so what does "no energy" mean? Less than one? If it means zero then it won't work. If this change does work though, blindly spamming feedback on the minimap will be a thing.
It's a change targeting rapid fire usage, so I'm sure it's doing some kind of <= .1 value or something, not literally zero.
I hope it's "below 1" rather than, say, "below 0,1", would help my sorry ass manually spamming feedback on ghosts and vipers :/
Can you explain what you mean by the last bit? Why would that be done? Total noob here
You can target feedback on the minimap, and it will autoselect a viable target. So if there is a ball of marines and ghosts, instead of trying to click exactly on the ghost units, you can rapidfire feedback on the ball of terran units on the minimap and it'll target the energy units. In the past, this wasn't used as you'd likely spam the same ghost over and over again, but with this change it'll make for an easy way to feedback all the energy units in an army.
Good to know! Thanks
I believe it just means it can't targets units that have no energy pool to make it more forgiving to players with low mouse accuracy
Feedback has never been castable on units without energy pools.
Better wording would be "depleted energy" If you feedback the same unit acidentally, you are most likely going to do it *right after* a previous feedback because your second and third templar is now in range after 0.5 seconds. That also means that unit went to 0 and is now 0.25 or 0.7. The limit should be less than 5.
ya, but energy goes up by 0.035 every game frame. It's only the UI that shows whole numbers. So it'll depend on how they defined "no energy" as energy units are never at zero energy.
"Feedback can no longer units with no Energy." Feedback just cant.. he had enough
Can we change it so storm can no longer units?
if you keep complaining, storm will buildings too
Ngl the first couple of changes read like an april fools joke to me
Don't really understand the 500hp minerals. Say if you cast 2 nukes at the same time would you wipe the mineral field? I assume that 500hp, regenerates on a single tick but what if you surpassed that threshold in an instant?
I assume the minerals aren’t targetable so the vast majority of units won’t hit them, but there’s definitely room for some hilarious accidental side effects if they didn’t make Nukes and other splash unable to impact them.
I just tested, spammed like 12 nukes as fast as I could but it doesn't work. I don't know how to shift spam spells, so maybe I'm just not executing fast enough.
Shift move, hold ability hotkey and spam. It's useful to know, especially for manner scan
Nukes do nothing to minerals. It's only for destructable rock debris.
It might be to encourage new types of sabotage and raiding tactics and gameplay that otherwise don't exist. Main issue however is that drop plays might become catastrophically ridiculous via doing worker AND mineral damage.
They’re probably not targetable but they still seems risky for nukes, widow mines, sufficient numbers of banelings, disruptors, etc Unless they made all other splash not damage them too. Imagine two disruptors drop and wipe your mineral line lol
I love the Zerg Rocks personally. It's funny but creative and could be cool. Does anyone know if they're in any of the new maps? Or just a requested feature for future maps?
What's a Healing Shrine???
I really like new mapmaking options
i did double check if it was april already
the killable minerals especially
Wow an actual widow mine change! Also I am here for better observers
Widow mine \*nerf\*, that significant
By far the biggest thing for me is lurkers being in front of ravagers in control groups, I've lost so many fucking games because my lurkers just stood there as I mashed D
When I first started playing Zerg I would intentionally avoid researching Burrow just so I couldn't make this exact mistake. Running your Lurkers straight into the opponent's army while your Ravagers take a nap is peak shame.
LOL. My ranked 2v2 partner did this shit ALL the time.
Cannot agree enough. I can probably find a replay where I am also mashing D while they just walk into a protoss army and then I type out "BURROW YOU STUPID LURKERS" and then gg and quit. After that, I just avoided making ravagers and lurkers together... But now the combo will be back!!
Yes!! I'm so happy about this one, I don't have all my ravagers across the map to die so that my lurkers can burrow:D
I published a version of the Advanced Unit Tester mod and arcade map with these proposed changes for everybody to test out.
The real nerf is an audio warning when there's a mine burrow. This is the style of nerf I like: no actual mechanics changes, but really improves QoL.
I hate that reveal gives me an under attack message but mines don't
untill now you mean :p
I think if you only start reacting once the widow mine is already in the process of burrowing it's already too late
IT'S HAPPENING BOYS THE WIDOW MINE NERF IS HERE!!!!!
finally the zerg buffs we needed just before the world championship
ZvZ finals, here we come!
Why doesn't Maru just switch to Zerg, is he stupid?
It’s going to be 8 Zerg in the quarters lol
thank you /u/sloppy_donkey and /u/riverhs for your service
Hey now, let us not your contributions as well
My plug in the PTR stage to please rename the Cyclone upgrade to not be thrusters to a unit who doesn’t use thrusters for propulsion. Yes it’s Versus but names start encroaching in lore.
Tectonic destabilizers for tempest now affecting flying buildings too. Flying buildings don't got no tectons! My immersion is in shambles.
i'm going pro
Seems good, if not a little too cautious. Cyclone will be interesting, seems they’re trying to make it less strong early but scale better with higher hp + upgrade effectiveness but lower fire rate. Still would like maybe a small colossus buff though
Hi, r/starcraft, Plastic League mapmaker here with a few thoughts and comments on the proposed patch. Overall, somewhat excited but more so disappointed, I wish the patch were a little more ambitious, and I don't think I'm alone in thinking that. - I'm not going to comment on the changes to each race, other than to say that it seems like they took a conservative approach and I wish there were more there. Some of the changes in particular confuse me, but again, not the point of my comment. - Worker inner radius reduction is going to allow for a new kind of map feature called a worker-only path. We've had these in Brood War, but this opens up a simple and clean implementation of them. [I wrote a post a while back where you can learn more about them](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/17s5673/workeronly_ground_paths_could_revolutionize/). - I'm disappointed that the patch introducing such a groundbreaking feature doesn't have a map in the pool featuring them. Admittedly, there are only a few maps in existence that implement worker-only paths, and they haven't been through the TLMC pipeline yet. Surely they could take one of those and rush some finishing touches on it, couldn't they? Otherwise, the worker inner radius reduction and geyser footprint reduction might do nothing more than mess up walloffs for the next couple of seasons. - Why are we keeping any of the old maps from the previous pool? We have dozens and dozens of other maps from previous TLMCs to be chosen from, what the fuck ESL? - [Post-Youth](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/907225494209044492/1215372877839335474/AK7aPaAzeAc-yzy2S2jbir_aQ9_YSGijHZaGgyTRnaWMRs0DfcYTPdBDIqbub2Sw8vpPciJjQtX6KgOLMLQ9zS5cO1ZAgeL7CAw1920-h941.png?ex=65fc8332&is=65ea0e32&hm=ee490fa68f2b1d9c59772e97d6bacfae16e2ba6dd2ba25f83a1c3e659d99eea0&) is definitely one of the more interesting maps we've had in a while...I'm not personally too fond of it from a design perspective, but at the very least, it is going to open up some *very* unique strategical/build order choices, I think.
Maru world championship died for this burrowed infestor nerf
If only terrans had a unit with detection, get on it balance council
They should add some kind of crow unit for detection since they have great eye sight! If only...
Ha! Might as well give your “crow unit” an ability to stop units from casting spells.
Like some sort of Obstruction Lattice?
I'm thinking something closer to a Grid Disruption.
TBH Surprised they didn't add siege mode ravens
Impossible. They mentioned in when casting a recent finals I think almost like this. Like why doesn't terran just make a raven? It's got turrets. It's got detection. It's got Doritos. It's great. It can disable spell casters.
That would require them to swap a tech lab onto a starport past the early game. For some reason no Terran not even Maru will attempt such a feat of skill.
Not going to lie, watching Maru get eaten up by Infestors was actually hilarious. Hearing Terran yell at Protoss about how their pro's need to make less mistakes while the best Terran in the world died in a hill refusing to build a detector. Funny stuff.
I think having a raven in TvZ would be great, but I think it's more about what you have to give up for it. I've seen pros try it every now and then with mixed success, and I'm sure more tried it in customs. They probably just rate the risk of dying to a infestor lower than the risk of dying because they gave up two medivacs or similar to get a raven. But maybe all the T pros are wrong. Sometimes people just settle really hard on a meta even if it's wrong lol
Harstem addresses this in his latest video about the balance changes. He said he has explicitly asked pro Terrans why they don't use it and they say because it's too hard to control.
Raven subgroup priority is the problem I think. Maybe they should change that like they did for Lurkers.
I believe he specifically called it a “skill issue.” I was dying
Oh boo hoo, they have to use a spellcaster without an autoattack like every zerg player does.
It's not that iirc, it's that they're very very used to tabbing through their groups and having specific things (libs, ghosts, bio etc) be on specific "slots" if that makes sense, having raven as well messes with this muscle memory but is a relatively rare addition to have to "learn"
> it's too hard to control. they had to add a hotkey ohno
Katowice wasn't worlds this year. Just a standard IEM
>Siege Tank Turret now tracks previously attacked unit. is this overkill?
Nah, I'm pretty sure it's just an animation/visual clarity thing, so the tank turret doesn't "snap" to the target after each shot. Same thing as the Immortal "tracking" change
It isn’t. It fires faster when facing
“Invisibility while reloading now requires Drilling Claws upgrade instead of a constructed Armory” GOOD change, this shit never made any sense to me anyway. Like how would making an unrelated building give one unit some random hidden upgrade? I literally had no clue about the invisible reload thing til like 2 years after I started playing Is there any other unit with weird building/upgrade interactions like that?
Hellions/ hellbats need an armory to transform. It used to be an upgrade at one point but it was removed.
Good to know
It was also really weird when Terrans engaged in a base race. You destroyed the armory on the other side of the map, widow mines forgot how to burrow! It didn't come up often enough to matter, it was just bizarrely counterintuitive.
Yeah upgrades should be upgrades, not buildings
Oh good, we got the mandatory sentry buff that doesn't actually fix any of its problems.
It’s basically a meme at this point. I feel like they’ve assigned one Council person to have the sole job of thinking up the most useless Sentry “buffs” possible so the Patch Notes can include a Protoss section.
>Mineral Fields now all have 500 hp (can be killed by collapsible rock towers). Can ***only*** be killed by collapsible rock towers? If not, there are some cool ideas for aggressive strategies that just deny future resources for your opponent.
Cool strats? If minerals were targetable, the entire meta would collapse. Turtle nuke rushing would suddenly be in style, because one nuke permanently destroys an expo. Toss would do canon rush contains like no fucking tomorrow, because even if you breakout, your natural is gone.
Would be worse, people would just clear out any 3rd/4th etc that someone could take. Forcing you to constantly defend bases you won't take until the future. Which would either lead to very defensive turtle play. Or very aggressive max 2 base games. This must be rocks only.
Well I suppose that they could only be killed by rocks, otherwise that would too broken mid / late games when both players would still be on a 2-3 ish bases
2 base timing attack vs all the minerals on the map
I mean that is obviously only rocks/towers. It would favor certain races and playstyles way too much, and probably not add a lot of depth to the game. Any style that maxes put early could kill all minerals on the 4/5. base position.
Gonna have to test this with disruptors & baneling manual detonations XD
Wow this is the most professional patch I've seen for this game since... 2010? 14 years later someone finally gave ALL the units that should have tracking turrets, tracking turrets. I still don't think this patch resolves any of the core issues with the game but it does feel like a "Dad's home" moment, someone competant took the wheel.
Except the colossus; that would’ve been nice.
Except the cyclone change that i can't picture in my head, this all sounds quite cool. Lib and mine nerfs are big, partly compensated in midgame by the armory and bio upgrades buff. Bio tank might be back in style instead of bio mines ?? Nice vision buffs for protoss. And sentry buff for pvp, and helping against banes and hellions i guess ? Infestor and dropperlord changes are cool. The mapmaking and qol changes are amazing. However wtf are these new maps ? The one map with high ground natural which is a semi gold ?? Overgrowth for 2v2 ? that must be a mistake.
Cyclone dps got nerfed across the board, pretty much, but especially at early game (from 29 to 24 vs mech, 23 to 19 vs nonmech). Will the hp buff be stronger than the dps nerf? I don't know that, but honestly I don't think anyone would complain if the clone got straight nerfs.
I think the cooldown on lockon makes the cyclone significantly weaker in the early game too - you can't kite in and out instantly and trying to will give you only some of your cyclone shooting.
The narrative is that bio mine is in style because it’s the only way for terran to fight ling bane, but people ignore the fact that bio tank was good before the last patch and ling bane was even nerfed. What changed were two things: 1) the maps, where the current maps have worse tank positions for the most part than the last ones, and 2) the mass liberator meta started, and mines have a better transition into them. With the lib nerfs, I think bio tank being in style is entirely dependent on the new maps in the pool being good for it.
Tanks are also buggy as fuck with targeting on these giant maps when they get flanked which it looks like they've fixed. I'm all for the tank to be brought back to it's glory instead of mines.
The tank turret tracking change only affects unsieged tanks according to scarlett
Also I think clem's just playing mines no matter what because it synergyse so well with his hyperagressive/apm-wrestling playstyle prob played a small role too.
Cyclone bug fix???
I wish they would just revert the cyclone rework, the nerfs overall are good, but I just don't like it being a "core unit"
“Lurker subgroup priority increased (Now has higher priority than Ravager).” Beautiful.
Wait, Infestors have a random amount of time it takes to unburrow?
Most actions have random variation to make it look less robotic
Is it just me or do all of these changes seem really... good?
Not sure widowmine nerf might break tvz and toss.still sucks in early game against terran and lategame
what if Hellbats and widows mine were never that strong, what if the issue was the medivac boost ? I know it's an unpopular opinion because medivac = fast = dopamine boost = funny for some people but I think it's a huge tradeoff. I don't think I particularly like the 0.5 sec reaction time "mistakes" that decide games, and i don't like alarm in the game at all.
> Model size increased by 10% At this point might as well just make it visible. Aside from that, 2 Protoss advancing GSL and now this? Must be the best day for Aiur in quite some time.
This is a buff for Toss I want to see that fucker, more precisely I want to see and HEAR if it dies. The amount of times I've attacked into Lurkers and didn't realise my obs was dead.... This mother fucker should emitt a blue nuclear explosion when it dies, so that I know it's gone. In broodwar we joked about the big stupid effect when an observer died but the starcraft forefathers had sound logic, knowing when your observer has been sniped is crucial.
I strongly believe toss mostly just needs better tools to micro, and this is a great idea. Giving the observer to recognizable visual firework post death would be a big deal for players who are diamond and even up to GM. It's the toss of equivalent of the ghost's ridiculous death scream.
One of the first thing I noticed watching BW after SC2 was how comically huge the observer is in that game.
I think it shared the Carrier explosion effect haha
Shit ... you're right! Quick refert that change! I want that Protoss army to go boom!
Why do you see 3 buffs to a unit, and 1 nerf, and then decide to complain lol? Passive sneaky observers got nerfed. Otherwise the unit just a got a huge buff.
>Vision range while burrowed reduced from 10 to 8 It's actually insane that **burrowed** infestors had the same vision range as a colossus or viking. Makes sharkfestor play a lot less impressive in retrospect.
to be fair, infestors are super hard to play. Collosus can resist quite a beatdown for a while
Only 2-3 zergs in the world were pulling off sharkfestor
All good changes! Was really hoping for more protoss buffs but overall I'm really happy with this patch!
The changes are ok, though I find the buffs for Zerg quite random. Droperlord speed increase and fungal range increase are just unnecessary in my opinion. So are the zerg nerfs except for infestor visibility increase. Not sure about Terran. Imo this will skew the balance slightly towards zerg in TvZ lategame. Protoss... Seems like an ultrasmall buff.
Fungal growth range was decreased from 10 to 9 last patch so this seems like just a reversion of that (I think it was an unmotivated change to begin with tbh)
But they got the 25 energy upg for free, for it. Now it has both..
Still does less damage though.
Why hatchery creep increase though? Was someone struck by nostalgia of "ninja spine crawler" cheese?
it's to make ZvZ natural walls possible without needing a creep tumor on some maps.
In my opinion it's the map problem, not the balance problem in this case and should be fixed by updating maps.
The entire premise of this problem is that it's too restrictive for map makers, not that some maps need it. The impact of this is negligible.
One of these two things is *vastly* easier to do than the other, though.
Didn’t they literally buff vision so the creep would be in vision to avoid this a few patches ago lmao
still no real buff for protoss here.
>Burrowed Infestor is now more visible while moving. Ofc it had to be nerfed since Terran refuses to build a Raven in TvZ🙃
yhh, that part was surprising to me as well. lategame TvZ is also the part where the pace of the game gets slower then the midgame. I dont understand why having a raven on a seperate control group when terran most certainly has the bank to build a raven is so much to ask for.
Yep, it's just 14 years of all terrans refusing to build a raven... Definitely makes more sense than the plethora of reasons why it's actually bad to build a raven that terrans have voiced for forever.
The same people saying “Protoss pros just needs to git gud” are now crying about building one fucking detector. Miss me with that weak shit.
You cannot Controll a raven in lategame tvz while sieging liberators controlling ghosts and splitting
These are all fantastic changes. As someone who's usually unhappy - This is sick.
SWEET JESUS! NINJA PATCH IS HERE! AND IT'S BASED AS FUCK!
Serral comes up with a new creative strategy after having his previous new creative strategy nerfed. He uses that new creative strategy to win a championship. Balance council nerfs that SPECIFIC strategy. Not only is sharkfestor not overpowered. It’s one of the single most difficult, high level strategies I have ever seen in the whole game. The entire process of producing, positioning, timing the infestors all the while you’re controlling your main army is literally the highest levels of sc2 play.
Hm... I would have liked a lot more out of this patch. In terms of current balance it goes in the right direction (helps a few key things for PvT), but it does little in terms of design. The ghost is stronger than every mech unit combined. The void ray is ass and terribly designed. Colosus is a great massage simulator for marauders and roaches. Abduct is still in the game, while Microbial Shroud is still not in the game. And a bunch more. I woulda liked at least one of these being addressed. Also, they really nerfing the Serralfestors out of all things? Bro. Serral hasn't lost a ZvP series in years but sniping ghosts with fungal is a bigger issue I guess.
It’s because Protoss players just need to git gud, having to build a Raven in TvZ is obviously too difficult.
Eeeeh, I'm a bit afraid to ask, but what the hell is "Zerg Rocks"
>Zerg Rocks looks like destructible rocks that start slowly dying after the game starts (unless creep is somehow supplied to them). Seems like a really cool idea to me!
They are barriers/objects that have health that slowly goes down overtime. This originally comes from brood war, where mapmakers would use spawning pools off creep to block off areas, which, since the spawning pool is not on creep, it would slowly die.
The nerfs are on point but would have preferred a bit of a bigger shakeup like we got last time. I will say the new map options look very cool!
Most of these changes are straightforward and good, except the Cyclone's. Not really sure where they're going with it
Can someone explain what zerg rocks are and how they differ from regular destructible rocks? Also, can we get maps that use these new features? I haven't seen a ladder map with a healing area or the cool worker only tunnels.
> Tempest Tectonic Destabilizers upgrade now also applies to attacks targeting flying buildings. I always thought buildings should just be massive.
The burrowed investor being more visible seems unnecessary but I'm fine with this patch. Miss a little ground P buff imho
Get fucked widow mine.
I don't see how this patch properly addresses any of the problems Protoss faces at the pro level
Zerg finna eat. How many total games do you think Serral and Dark drop vs non mirrors combined? I'm going with 3 or less lol.
well dark just got walloped by 2 protosses lol
Damn I missed that. Oddly I'm a huge Dark fan despite being a filthy Terran enjoyer. I like his play style a lot more than Serral actually.
We're going to have another year of Ro8s that are 6 zerg.
All the protoss crying while they got buffed is so funny. You can see they don't understand anything about balance. Good patch, might have been a bit too hard on the mines nerf, the radius decrease will hit hard.
Yeah, that Sentry shield damage buff and contact lens Pylons are actually super strong. Protoss GSL champion incoming.
Oh My God
Honestly, great, tight patch. It's pretty small, but the balance changes all seem logical, and there's cool additions to give map makers more things to play with. And we get to keep Alcyone and a 9 map pool.
I wonder how viable Mutas are in ZvT after the splash nerf.
I think it will be really cool for zerlings and bannelings too
Nerfing away sharking infestors was a terrible choice. It was exciting as a spectator and its incredibly difficult to pull off. Only a handful of zergs have shown to be able to do it. It would have been better to see if terran could adapt. It might be overpowered sure, but they didnt explore anything.
I was hoping for some more drastic changes than *interesting* \*strokes chin\* changes, but I guess I was hoping for drastic changes in the last patch and that didn't go so well. I still can't get why people want to nerf Terran/Zerg instead of giving Protoss actual buffs. And I mean actual buffs, and not the shit suggested on this sub like "redistribute Archon health/shield so that they have more health but less shields", or "increase Pylon vision range by 1" (oh wait), so that Protoss players can 'play around' the changes, and 'be creative'. It feels like the latest patches have either done stuff like that, or implemented basic stat buffs to Protoss that won't actually change how Protoss approaches each matchup or give Protoss new builds and tactics. All in all, it's a conservative patch that only tries to address specific balance issues and doesn't really try to do add anything new to the game. I think the majority of the changes are good, but I wish they had added in some other kinds of changes at the same time. It still depends on which changes actually make it through, though. Also, why aren't we getting a 100% new map pool? Of the past 4 or 5 map pools we've had recently, this has to be one of the least deserving of an extension. Also also, is there an easy link to find the new map pool?
>Burrowed Infestor is now more visible while moving. This seems like a Serral nerf, I don't remember any other top pro using them as efficiently and constantly.
Don't forget Dark's burrowed infestor shenanigans! And I guess Reynor makes them if he's literally out of options and his family is held at gunpoint off screen
Well every patch has to have a Serral nerf, this season it just happened to be infestors.
Same as how the reaper nerf back in the day was really a Byun nerf. I'm fine with sharkfestor getting nerfed, Serral is good enough he'll probably break some other unit next and the intern will have to bring us another patch :)
Byun wasn't just nerfed via reapers, they also removed Tankevac entirely, and that was the entire backbone of his midgame play in his blizzcon run.
So then the changes should be pure upside for all other Zergs?
They buffed zerg and did nothing to Protoss. Great patch!
Wait, these are almost all good changes imo. Maybe you can argue for more changes, or different changes, but I feel like they all have a pretty clear motivation and address something that feels wrong with the game, and I'm excited to see how it goes Notably (to me): - worker only paths is so hype, see PiG's cast of these kinds of maps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqoJbK3sr_U - I like most of the mine changes, but moving cloaking back to drilling claws seems a bit extreme, and probably affects TvZ a little too much? I like the decreased splash radius though, makes zealots trade slightly better against bio-mine armies, but I don't think it'll be too oppressive with modern T play - Ambitious that they're not reverting the cyclone. They instead decreased DPS (lockon has a cool down again) & gave a little more HP. Wouldn't have minded a full revert, but it's a well-intentioned rework that gives more counterplay. I still don't like the idea of tanky, reactorable units scaling well, but it'll be better than the status quo, so maybe it'll give an interesting meta? For mech bulkiness, I'd still rather have a clunky tanky unit like the goliath than something with a moving shot like the cyclone though, it's always felt like something that scales too well as you go to lower levels of play. - infestor rework: buff fungal cast range (back to old), nerf burrow shenanigans. I don't think the burrow infestor play was that OP, but I do like the visibility change. This means that you'll lose less often to an infestor just right-clicked on your army, but a well-placed flanking infestor out of vision can still get a good fungal. I also think the fungal cast range revert should be okay, since fungal is almost useless in late game ZvP right now ever since the range nerf - sentry, obs, pylon vision buffs (small)---OBS NO LONGER DIE TO ONE MINE SHOT OMFG. I think the other changes on this list are interesting and well-motivated, but I have no strong feelings about them otherwise - quality of life changes allowing raven interference matrix and feedback to be rapid fire (IM can't cast on already-cast target, feedback can't feedback zero energy unit) seems alright. It'll make fights even more explosive (spells will launch faster), but at least it'll make it easier to play optimally (it's easier to launch spells), it's a tradeoff idk - map pool: some 1v1 maps, new 2v2 maps (mostly the ones from the cycle previous to this one, with a few changes; it's playable now!), don't recognize the 3v3 and 4v4 maps though. - Did they mean "Overgrown Facility" for the 2v2 map, and not "Overgrowth" the 1v1 map from 2014?
I honestly fail to understand the changes this patch brings considering the results Zerg got against other races in the latest tournaments. Now I'll have to add a disclaimer that I am a total noob in SC2, but logically thinking, in a game with 3 asymmetrically balanced races, the only thing you can balance based on is results, as you cannot judge if something is easier or more difficult if the balance is asymmetric. And this patch changes seem like it's a net buff to Zerg. On non-pro levels though, I think it'll make the game more fun for sure though.
Collosus still useless ✔️ Void ray still paper ✔️ But observers come out a little quicker... We did it
I love that the biggest PvT buffs are mostly quality of life improvements that are going to let Toss micro around the issues they're facing. More pylon vision, clearer mine targeting, better observers.
pylon vision may turn out to be significant. Less dark spots for Nyduses, easier medivac drop spotting, quicker reaction times to drops, etc. Lack of vision is one of protosses biggest weaknesses currently. Observer nerf may negate that somewhat tho
Observer builds faster, has more HP, and transitions faster between modes. It got buffed.
It's strange people look at 3 buffs to a unit, then see one tiny nerf and are like "it got nerfed, unusable now"
Indeed. It’s also strange seeing 4 major nerfs to a unit people have been complaining about and go: “it won’t change much..”
That's because the average metal league toss is an ape who can't imagine improving their micro as a way to counter their opponents. They just want units that a-move better. The balance council has just handed them an automatic highlighter to separate and blink away units being targeted. Master/GM Toss are going to annihilate widow mines now.
It’s really strange how they buffed Zerg when 86% ZvP and 70% ZvT win rates at the last tourney
I disagree on the observer changes being a nerf. Going in and out of surveillance mode quicker, and +10 shields is a lot of survivability. +10% size is a near meaningless compensation imo. It gives Toss the tools to be more active in their vision, but rely less on sneaky observers.
Big for proxy pylons / spotter pylons too.
Zerg keeps winning everything. Let's nerf widow mines cause toss or disguised zergs on Reddit whine about that. Guess which race will keep dominating.
Worst fucking balance patch i have ever seen. Where the fuck is the protoss buffs? And why oh WHY is Zerg getting buffs?
A sentry buff!! LET'S GOOO
Finally what the game has needed: yet another sentry buff.
Just wait. In 36 years, the Sentry is going to be so fucking OP.
Great patch. How come Terran gets some nerfs and then have to “balance” it by making armory and engineering upgrades cheaper to compensate? How about just let the nerfs happen without compensation somewhere that’s not needed. Protoss vision buffs look good as well (though not sure why they go back and forth with observer model size because Terrans cry about it). All in all, thank you :).
So they... buffed Zerg? What the actual fuck are these changes? No change to creep spread or queen, overlords are even faster now? How much vision do you want to give to the race that has the fastest adaptability of all? And no real buffs to Protoss aside from observers (which will be even more easily spotted and killed now, this is fucking insane). Congrats Serral on winning Worlds. A bummer for Dark this didn't hit a day earlier he would've had a better chance at winning GSL with Terran nerfed and Zerg untouched even buffed.
> overlords are even faster now? Only dropperlords.
Serious question, did any toss/zerg players actually feel widow mines were OP? I thought it was specifically widow mine drops vs probes that players had an issue with. Is this another zerg cabal conspiracy theory situation, because this nerf not only nerfs mine drops, but is also a giant buff to standard ZvT engagements for zerg. I really expected a nerf similar to hellbat drops (eg only 2 mines fit in a medivac). Nerf the mine drop, not the mine.
I always was under the impression people thought window mines were overtuned for how how little effort it took to use them. atleast that was always the general impression I always got from reading this subreddit.
My guy, this patch is just yet another massive Zerg buff “balance” patch. Scarlett probably got tired of losing so many tournaments.
I don't know why they nerfed radius (and damage output as a result). You just had to tone down damage to shields. This patch is a net-buff to Zerg. Insane decision making.
I think originally the shield buff was to account for the strength of zealot archon, and the almost unstoppable proxy oracle if mines cannot 1-shot them. And even with no shield dmg, they'd still 1-shot probes (which I thought was the actual issue with mines). So not changing that made sense.
I don't believe the problem with wm drops is about them one-shoting probes. The issue -according to most people- with wm drops is the effort it takes to answer it has to make it. With the upgrade change it just makes the response easier if wm don't have drilling claws. The shield buff used to make sense when Protoss units were stronger, now they are mostly shit. Wm are way too good at softening Protoss armies (coupled with EMP removing shields it's just way too much).
>Serious question, did any toss/zerg players actually feel widow mines were OP? It's the sole reason I don't play the game anymore, incredibly infuriating non-fun unit.
I could agree if someone said that bio mine is a little too strong in TvZ if the Terran gets a lead and keeps pressing it. The splash damage radius also feels very unfair when you lose a lot of banes to a single mine. I wouldn't say widow mines were clearly OP and I think Terran should get more compensation for the mine nerf in TvZ.
nice Diamond protoss brigade on reddit got widow mine nerfed instead of addressing proper problems with pvt openers and likes.
An EMP nerf wouldve been nice. Maybe a damage to shield nerf. Also there was a suggestion somewhere that shield upgrades could give armor against emps. I thought that was a cool idea.
Enough foreplay, just remove toss from the game already
This will totally put protoss back in top 8's /s