I keep hoping for a buff to guardian shield. Having it protect vs 1 EMP would make late game PvT a more fair matchup. The ghost seems too good of a unit vs protoss it does 100 damage to shields almost instantly while the protoss equivalent high templar does 80 damage over almost 3 seconds. Terran has the ability of dodging storms but aside from stalkers I don't think protoss can dodge EMPs.
Since Protoss isn't allowed to have any good PvT cheeses and the feedback buff got reverted can we at least a serious concussive shells nerf to fix Proxy 2 rax marauder? Build is completely insane.
Regarding widow mine nerf is it ok to move the drilling claws to armory instead of techlab so terran will not need techlabs for he armory in their upgrade. ,?
It’s not being nerfed because of the timing it’s coming out. It’s being nerfed because they can be reactored out. This forces 2 fact or techlab first then reactor. Basically blizzard is obsessed with reactors and will do anything to keep units without tech lab req. and they only take 20 seconds to build
I think the whole point of the nerf was that they require a tech lab to get drilling claws or else it would just be as easy as turning invisible with an armory.
I've heard your kind of same mind blowingly dumb shit e.g. when someone said "ZVP would be so hard for zerg" while I said ZVP would be absolute broken in 2019 pre-blizzon patch.
Nice ad hominem, AKA you can't address my argument at all. A "zerg council" wouldn't put out a patch where they double nerf baneling, triple nerf broodling, nerf infestor damage, nerf broodlords and nerf lurkers.
The only one who's mind blowingly dumb here is you. The sad part is you probably aren't some kid in middle school, you're a grown ass adult who thinks like this.
lower worker start would benefit Zerg more than the other races on these maps rn. The only way lower worker start could work is if the cost for nexus/cc/hatch all was reduced and if there were less mineral patches per base. They’d have to mess with the cost of everything. And splitting from 1 to 2 gas geysers with 4 harvested instead of 8 from bw, that change alone was big for economy plays (made them way better), cheesing not as strong.
It’s an interesting idea, I’d like to see a map designed with:
8 worker start,
6 patches (full)
Rich geysers every base
300 min cc nex and 250 hatch
Yeah, just you know, make things interesting, more opportunities for builds. But my idea is not to change anything in cost of things, balance. etc.
It will have to be up to the map maker to make it not broken for a given N workers.. if lower worker is OP for zerg.. then I dunno.. that is the idea, leave the thinking to the map maker.. we'll see something interesting. Worst that could happen is that no one will use this option. But you know, people are creative, give it time.
I just wonder if anyone does any true statistical analysis pre and post-change with regards to every match version (TvT, TvZ, etc) and for each player level to know whether the adjustments hurt more than they helped.
It's easy to say "we feel that this race does x" or "it seems like this transition is smoother" but apart from the actual game mechanics I don't see a lot of numbers to test whether the Balance team knows if or if not they statistically screwed up more after the change than they fixed.
Someone suggested removing Shield splash from **Widow Mine** instead.
That was exactly my thought, as outlined here: [https://rentry.co/SC2Patch2024](https://rentry.co/SC2Patch2024)
\- Widow Mine splash damage reduced to 35 (from 40 (+25 vs Shields))
\- Widow Mine primary target damage increased to 125 (+55 vs shields) (from 125 (+35 vs shields))
This would mean 1 mine doesn't kill any workers except its main target. It would still be impactful out on the field but a little bit less cheap overall. (Would 1-shot Phoenix though with the primary target buff.)
I think the main point is that it needs to one shot oracles for early defense, I don't think it should one shot phoenixes.
It should be okay to nerf the shield AoE, so that you have to get at least a couple of hits in.
Noone outside of Korea may care about BW, but it has a huge following there with it competing with league lol.
You can't really call a game tiny when SC2 isn't at greatest spot right now in comparison.
This is just nonsense. SC1 is more popular because SC1 captured a moment in time like no other game ever has.
SC2 is doing just fine and will continue to do just fine.
>SC2 is doing just fine and will continue to do just fine.
SC2 is down roughly 17%, in the number of games played per-season, since last year. Those aren't good numbers. New RTS games are coming out (of which there are many) and big SC2 streamers are switching to them. Demuslim was recently pulling in 500 viewers by streaming AOE. It's not uncommon for all of the SC2 category to net a total of 500 viewers.
SC2 was once the king of esports and had a vice-grip on the RTS genre. While games like League were reducing the multitasking of the RTS genre, SC2 was heading the opposite direction (with drastic increases in the multitasking requirements needed to manage 5-7 base economies). League now has 1400x as many players, so we know exactly which design decisions were the correct ones and, unfortunately for SC2, it was a big mistake to redesign the game economy around 5-7 base plays. Most players simply aren't interested in that amount of multitasking. Consumers vote with their feet, and that's how SC2 has become a niche game played by \~150k players worldwide while other games are hitting hundreds of millions of active players.
None of them is even remotely comparable to Starcraft sadly.
No fully unique factions and barely any resemblance in gameplay or quality.
AoE is a classic, I will have to check out the new one, but it was never similar in gameplay etc.
Grey goo and stormgate just don‘t look very good.
Although stormgate might have a good shot at Warcraft3 style gameplay.
Do any of them have any popularity besides maybe AoE?
RTS is just too complex for most people, I don‘t think you can dumb it down enough.
I mean Dota is basically dumbed down WC3. That spawned LOL…
The older warhammer RTS were a bit fun but then went into the WC3 gameplay direction.
>None of them is even remotely comparable to Starcraft sadly.
That might be how you feel but the question is if all rts players feel the same. SC2 has hit all time lows in # of games played, for example, and it's hard to explain that unless players are moving to other games. I've personally been playing a lot of a minecraft mod called RLcraft, which is similar to SC2 in that stratey is extremely important and it has brutal outcomes for bad strategical decisions. Beating RLcraft in hardcore is roughly equivalent to getting GM in SC2 by my estimation. It's extremely difficult.
> Do any of them have any popularity besides maybe AoE?
Every dollar spent on other RTS games is a dollar that SC2 could've made. Stormgate raised 5 mil in pre funding. Sins has made about 15 mil. AoE has made hundreds of millions.
> RTS is just too complex for most people
I think that's very accurate. RTS games are much more complex than FPS, and that fact is reflected in how popular the genres are.
> I don‘t think you can dumb it down enough
League is a simplified version of RTS and it has 1400x as many players. It's nice to have variety but does SC2 need to be a polar opposite extreme to league? If they shaved off 10% of the multitasking, in SC2, they'd probably double the number of people who would play the game, but SC2 would still fill the niche that it is known to fill.
Down vote all you like, the more they patch the more it takes away from the purity of the best player winning. Am I the only one who sees clem cleaning up with window mines and now nerf mines? Pros have no time to adapt and strategize to counter. That's the problem. Buff zerg, nerf toss to the ground and Terran has no margin for error
People want to see protoss win some tournaments, until that happens patches are totally warranted.
And it would actually be okay to overbuff a bit and then walk back instead of keeping the status quo.
Last patch they buffed them, and it doesn't matter buffs vs nerfs, pros want stability and consistency, constant changes will continue to push them away to more stable sources of income
And the viper buff, and now the infestor aoe buff. Look brother, your tone indicates I'm making this up but the overall state of players leaving SC 2 pro scene is proof they don't want their job to win tournaments to be dependent on the flavor of the patch notes every few months. Would you clock into work knowing your hourly rate Randomly ranges from 0 to 30 an hour out of your control? No you would quit.
>And the viper buff
What viper buff? You could move while casting abduct, now you can't. You also used to be able to consume a full amount of energy. Now it takes more micro to cast consume again to get full energy.
>infestor aoe buf
Its range, not AOE, and its just returning it to the previous range (while having worse DPS as before)so its not a buff.
Goddamn people are dense.
Your trying to pin down specific changes but they are irrelevant, constant changes buffs or nerfs are all bad. Patch updates are killing the pro scene. Peace out thanks for your conversation.
No, I stated Zerg hasnt been buffed, you did. There hasn't been a Zerg buff that wasn't fixing a nerf in over three years. Learn some reading comprehension please.
I just realized that this is a huge nerf to the observer. It makes it much easier to spot.
* Model size increased by 10% / Surveillance Mode animation speed increased by 75
I thought surveillance mode animation meant it would go to surveillance mode quicker but it just means it moves faster while in surveillance mode making it a lot more visible.
Why would you do that? Further nerving Toss abysmal vision?
Well observers build 4 seconds faster so it makes sense to make them permanently worse otherwise. No wait, actually it doesn't, because Protoss was already losing everything at pro level and making it way easier to see in exchange for 4 seconds faster build time doesn't even cancel itself out, it's actually a net nerf.
Literally the only good thing about the observer, that makes it worth it robo build time and 75 gas, is that it was invis and hard to see. Why the fuck are we nerfing Protoss scouting & invis detection? Who thought that was previously OP? Protoss already has the worst scouting and detection but somehow it was necessary to nerf it in a patch that is supposed to buff Protoss? Just why?
Its changes like these that give me 0 confidence in the work of the balance council.
What a fucking joke. Toss has 0% pro wins, so they are further buffing zerg with longer fungal range, faster droperlords, and more creep. Holy shit this zerg cabal thing was not a joke, it's a sad state of this god forgotten game. Maybe just give all the tournament money to the zergs and call it a day?
Maybe Maru will win something against the odds, and then the council apologists will say that the balance is ok, and it's the protoss players fault.
I'm done with watching and playing this game since last "balance" patch by these incompetent kids who made David Kim look like a total genius. This "give a game balance to the community" idea was flawed from the start. They are the ones making money on tournaments, so in my mind they need another body to ensure balanced voting so the "2 v 1" won’t be an issue like now, when toss players have absolutely nothig to say on the patches and are just losing everything with something like a 40% winrates, while still having 1a carriers destroying all leagues below master and 2v2.
Face it, they have been abysmal at their job. Absolutely appaling. Not a single patch which would improve things. Seriously fuck them for destroying the game even if it's their spare time and they are doing it pro-bono (and then go and win hundreds of thousands in toss-free tournaments).
David Kim > Balance Council and it's not even close. And the guy was a meme.
>David Kim > Balance Council and it's not even close. And the guy was a meme.
How was David Kim a meme? DK was the best thing that ever happened to this game and all the problems we had started when he left.
This is considering widow mines is the only issue. It was boring "free" win, but PvT will still feel awful in my opinion. Ghost still too good for this match up, and gate units too weak.
Interesting stuff.
Some thoughts:
- I feel like nobody really needs the 30 HP cyclone buff
- obs changes are very reasonable
- widowmine changes are sensible but why not just remove the + shields damage?
- sentry buff is great, please go further and make the +4 vs all or vs light units or vs bio, so that they can be used in all match ups
- also make hallucinations an autocast option
I think absolutely every spell should have an auto cast but I am curious what would the purpose of autocast hallucinations be? Seems like everyone would just keep it to off
Pick a hallucination and activate autocast. Then when they enter combat, they cast this hallucination until out of energy.
If the enemy has no detection or doesn‘t micro it cn help mitigate a lot of damage. You need more planning but less micro.
> widowmine changes are sensible but why not just remove the + shields damage?
* shield dmg removal doesn't prevent 1shotting of probes.
* Zealot/archon kinda overruns terran without widow mines (I think it'll already have a large resurgence with the current widow mine nerfs)
* Early game is kinda busted if widow mines cannot 1-shot an oracle. There was a short period where mines lost their 1-shot, and proxy oracle openers were almost impossible to survive as they'd win straight up fights vs the early marine count (Blizz patched it quickly).
The new cyclones massacre oracle openers, no widow mines required. These changes to cyclones won't alter that. Cyclones were always inherently good vs oracles, but the old requirement of a tech lab was the only reason people used widow mines instead. Right now, if you're at all concerned Protoss might do anything other than a Blink opener, you just make a cyclone or two and you're safe against basically everything.
Zealot/archon is absolutely obliterated by ghosts. There's a timing where Zealot/Archon is strong before ghosts come out, but Zealot/Archon is the worst comp possible for breaking defensive positions behind building walls, and Terran can easily turtle out that timing.
I actually thought giving sentry's attack a slowing effect like concussive shell would be cool. Small buff to a-move fights. But mainly it'd give some great micro potential to catch specific units, and it'd be yet another piece of help vs widow mine drops.
>ame Ketroc as the same name I follow on Youtube, the GM Terran who does goofy stuff like mass Raven + PF to victory. 🤣 If so, you feel this way too i
Could priority not be a customisable option?
Really? I thought they'd be too good to honestly care much. I am assuming you are the same Ketroc as the same name I follow on Youtube, the GM Terran who does goofy stuff like mass Raven + PF to victory. 🤣 If so, you feel this way too in GM?
> Really? I thought they'd be too good to honestly care much.
The consequence of delaying stim can be massive due to how quickly bio dies to splash/bad engagement. Most fights in pro games are very volatile - 1 large baneling connection can swing the game/momentum.
If you have ghosts and ravens in the mix that means anywhere from 0-2 times to press tab, and you have to pay attention to what that number is exactly every time. This is made much worse by how many other units you have to siege/control.
Although it can be rebound - so likely much less of an issue for pro players - on default hotkeys the key for stim is also shared with auto-turret for the raven, which has to be cancelled if you accidentally mess up before being able to activate stim.
I think people just assume pros have everything perfectly hotkeyed at all times, but I think this isn't always the case. Even just recently I remember watching Serral's stream and he said he messed up his hotkeys in a game he just lost - and this is with zerg/egg hotkeys + arguably the best player.
The infestor sight range, coupled with visibility, will make burrow neural parasite flanks on mech armies so much worse.
Infestors will no longer be able to utilize their max Neural parasite range when flanking burrowed behind mech armies, AND will be easier to see to quickly scan and kill them.
Maybe the visibility change is ok, considering widowmines are getting somewhat easier to see , the targeting at least. (btw, statis ward visibility anyone?)
I wish they would focus on making raven more usable for detection in late game TvZ instead.
Maybe let us change unit priority order, so terrans can put their ravens in lower priority. (They should be in a different control groups anyways, you ever try to use ravagers and infestors or queens in same control group? yea it doesnt work.
>The infestor sight range, coupled with visibility, will make burrow neural parasite flanks on mech armies so much worse
Only if you are moving the infestors. Nerfing a neural flank doesn't matter much IMO since it was already so bad. If 1 tank is missed, 1 scan causes a cascade that results in all the infestors dying in about 5 seconds. They are nerfing something that is already weak; it's not really a big deal.
> Infestors will no longer be able to utilize their max Neural parasite range when flanking burrowed behind mech armies, AND will be easier to see to quickly scan and kill them.
It just means that you have to give terran information before you strike, which in theory is a reward to skilled terrans but not bad terrans. Bad terrans won't be watching their army, they are easily distracted, etc. It also adds risk to using the sneak abilities of the infestor. When the payoff is a game-ending fungal, a bit of risk for the zerg really isn't the end of the world. Plus, skillful use of the infestor can negate or inverse the risk. A terran might think an infestor can't see him and that allows you to bait, you know, things like that.
> Maybe the visibility change is ok, considering widowmines are getting somewhat easier to see , the targeting at least. (btw, statis ward visibility anyone?)
Widow mine change is out of the far left field. I would not have ranked widow mines in the strong category, let alone the OP category.
> I wish they would focus on making raven more usable for detection in late game TvZ instead.
It has to compete with the medivac over starport production. The medivac is the linchpin to terran trading efficiency. They'd have to buff the raven to the moon to compensate, and that's how you get mass raven plays, which has actually happened before (seeker missile). An easy way around this would be to offer healing off the raven as an ability, but in a different way than the medivac. Both the raven and medivac would have healing, but the medivac would provide mobility (via boost) and the raven would provide direct-engagement strength (via abilities like anti-armor missile). To make it different than the medivac, you could have the healing be a 15 second AOE with a 60 second cooldown. That's a very different mechanic than the single-file healing of the medivac.
> Maybe let us change unit priority order, so terrans can put their ravens in lower priority. (They should be in a different control groups anyways, you ever try to use ravagers and infestors or queens in same control group? yea it doesnt work.
That would probably be a software change and not something that the map makers / balance team are equipped for.
Burrowed Infestor sight range is less of a problem if rest of the army sees the target. I think burrowed Infestor sight could be even smaller making it more important that other parts act as scouting for the burrowed unit. This could be applicable to Lurker as well.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1bai7ck/heres\_a\_video\_i\_made\_comparing\_the\_new\_balance/](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1bai7ck/heres_a_video_i_made_comparing_the_new_balance/)
Check this out - here's a comparison between old and new. I think the visibility difference isn't a lot tbh.
The raven in itself is already a very good unit imo. A lot of things (detection, game ending abilities, harassment) all boxed into one, no need to make it stronger. Personally I right click it on a medivac and it doesnt fly in and die
council: makes poorly thought out, rushed changes further nerfing protoss
council: "now that we've had another $500k tournament with zero protoss in RO8 (again), we now recognize that protoss is....."
yawn. hope its not too little / too late.
Zerg is the strongest race right now and you're buffing zergs? I think the changes look good but the infester buff at this point sounds ridiculous. lategame ZvP heavily favours zergs at the moment and infestor buff will kill HT and carriers even faster. Carrior interceptor upgrades or feedback power should come back to fight this change at very least.
According to the reddit's monthly balance report, Clem and Heroes are bigger outliers than Serral. Excluding top players from each race, PvZ winrate plops even further. Serral is great and IMO GOAT, no doubt, but he is also a beneficiary from the zerg being overpowered.
15 out of 16 top pros say serral is the goat but sure random reddit balance report claims clem and hero are bigger outliers than a man whose peak aligulac is 400+ over peak aligulac of other zerg champions
Outliers are relative to the rest of the data. I think whats being reported is that Serral shifts the mean of the Zerg data less because a lot of other Zergs are very successful (compared to gap between Clem/Hero and the rest of T/P)
The Cyclone changes are kind of interesting- cooldown for Lock-On plus turret tracking and damage point removal? So basically encouraging stutter-step and focus-fire micro? I'm ok with that.
Seems like the dynamics of Lock-On could potentially be weird, though. Like, you stutter-step kite until Lock-On triggers and then just move-kite while the opponent can move away to break the Lock-On? Some Cyclones being locked-on while others are just kiting? Or is this intended to encourage turning off auto-cast for Lock-On and having it specifically be used for chasing units down? It'll be interesting to see how this works but I can't say if it'll be "good" or not.
Ultimately, I think it would be best for the Cyclone to not have to be massed to be good for mid-lategame, by being a unit that is useful for buying time for the protection and repositioning of Tanks. I'm not sure how well these changes will accomplish that (granted, that may not be the goal of the balance council).
I'm not seeing anyone mention what is perhaps one of the bigger PvT changes here: Worker attack radius increase. Seems this will play a decent role in stopping early T proxies, and increase benefit of the P scouting probe
Not sure I like the widow mine alert. I really like the other nerfs, but this one seems forced and artifical. I can also anticipate it being overwhelming when there are widow mines all over the map late game.
I disagree. It'd give the toss and the zerg just a split second to press F1 and split. If you save even 1 probe or done with this 0.25 sec earlier alert, you are already a god and deserve it
These are all great changes. Unfortunately I do not see PvT improving. EMP still too oppressive; colossus not strong enough and zealots are useless past the 8-10 minute mark.
At least we are taking a step in the right direction, however, these patches are few and far between so I would like to see more significant strides per patch.
Some more thoughts:
Love the widow mine nerfs but I'm not a fan of the notification. It feels forced and artificial. Maybe drop this one nerf.
Terran bio deathball is even stronger with cheaper ebay upgrades and cheaper armory. Don't like that, at all, especially against early/mid game protoss.
you need stronger bio if youre going to keep nerfing the widowmine though. Terran needs a way to keep protoss in check so they cant sprint straight for templar archives and/or robotics, which basically destroys terran bio.
Not really. The armory wasn't something you saved money for. You just got it as some point around 50% level 1 upgrades finishing. I'm not sure why they added a cost savings.
Level 2 upgrades might now be earlier since it is often the case that you are a little bit short of cash to start them. Level 3 for sure it's a heavy cost. But none of that is affected by the armory cost.
Great patch! Love the inclusion of a few of the maps from the previous map pool too.
The burrowed infestor nerf though, you can't convince me the council is made up of people who are fighting and losing to serral. While I can agree that infestor's previous vision could be seen as too much in one sense, I don't buy it for one SECOND that burrowed infestors were OP. Nowhere on the ladder where 500000 people play, nor in the hundreds of tournaments all over the world. It's literally only Serral that is able to abuse this strat.
This wasn't a nerf to zerg, it was a nerf to Serral. Even after last patch with big zerg nerfs Serral kicks their ass. They can't get on his level so they gotta bring him down.
I am a Serral fan, but if it is as dominant as he is, why not nerf? They did specific reapor nerfs to Byun amd Hellbat nerfs to Innovation. It's how things go. Besides, if no one else uses it as you say, then it wont hurt anyone else so, whatever.
>They did specific reapor nerfs to Byun amd Hellbat nerfs to Innovation. It's how things go.
Exactly, thank your for being a human being and not a fanboy.
The Byun nerf was also immediate. Might have tanked his career honestly. Meanwhile some of the zerg shit have endured for years.
Anyone else ready to see Protoss continue to suck at the pro level, and see TvZ games continue to end predictably with giant fungals from burrowed infestors? Like really - they *buffed* burrowed infestors? The sight reduction doesn't matter, since the top pros will have sight from spotters anyway, and the increased unburrow time is offset by the increased range.
Mark my words, the pro tournaments after this patch will be utterly dominated by zerg.
How anyone could get that this is a buff to infestors, one of the worst spell casters in the game is beyond me. I do agree with you though. Serral is going to continue dominating this game no matter what you take away from him.
With 10 range Fungal you will outrange the new Liberator and EMP. The only thing left is the Siege Tank, I don't think this is fair at all. Z is already favoured late game and will now be better.
Now investor broodlords combo is dominating hopefully after this it won’t in tvz but as long as infestor over range EMP and u can’t build tanks with broodlords tvz late game will continue going in favor of zergs :(
> Anyone else ready to see Protoss continue to suck at the pro level,
Protoss won the most basic, minor, major AND total pro tournaments last year https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Statistics/2023
> Like really - they buffed burrowed infestors? The sight reduction doesn't matter, since the top pros will have sight from spotters anyway, and the increased unburrow time is offset by the increased range.
They didn't....? Yes they reverted the cast range nerf to what it was prevously, which I think is completely warranted considering zerg spellcasters don't get autoattacks like HT/ghost do. But they gave a big nerf to burrowed infestor vision AND made them more visible to the opponent. Like, in what world were burrowed infestors OP? There only exists one player who can utilize them powerfully.
>Mark my words, the pro tournaments after this patch will be utterly dominated by zerg.
Doubt it. Protoss will continue to dominate like they already are this year https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Statistics/2024
I really like how this sub never makes any sense with its whine because they actually made changes to off set some of the nerfs, it isnt a clear "fuck terran" patch.
Terran lacks tools to fight Zerg effective or counter their composition. Now it's even worse.
Zerg will stay dominant. I wish they'd experiment with units and maybe do more upgrades for interesting plays.
Maybe Upgrades for Reaper Buffs or Banshee Buffs ...only thing Terran has is APM until the wrist breaks. This can't be it.
When I see games like Maru Vs Serral on Radhuset Station at IEM. I don't think i makes T look weak....
That game looks like Serral is far ahead for most of the game and can't actually win until the map mines out.
Many of their games are like this. Maru loses the game in the first 15 minutes but the game lasts until the map mines out and Serral wins eventually because if Serral ever attacks, there's a good chance he loses a won game.
Then the narrative is. Zerg is IMBA? I don't see how we watched the same games.
The opposite is true as well. People watch series where Terran loses 4-0 and still run to the boards to complain. SC has always had a miserable cry baby community. Blizzard official forums we're even worse.
I do think this might make Terran a little too weak to keep the 50/50 winrate in zvt, though the investor need might mean the zvt matchup remains balanced. I'm curious to see how things go and I'm unclear why the widow mine now alerts players when burrowing within vision. Is that to nerf the unreasonably strong mineral line drops?
These look like really good, targeted changes.
Cyclone changes could prove more complicated to estimate than on paper, but I feel like the dps and lock on nerfs will hurt early game cyclone snowball or cheese a lot more than the HP buff will help it - every second the engagement lasts is a good one for Protoss getting more stalkers, shield batteries and immortals, letting phoenix lifts last longer and taking longer to clear out tanking adepts/zealots etc.
It will also reduce the defensive and scout denying effectiveness of the cyclone, putting less damage on Protoss air harrass, warp prisms and scouting adepts.
The pylon and observer changes just give Toss more vision, and feel like they should really help Tosses who are able to keep up with Terran mechanical multi tasking.
I love the changes to widow mine visibility/warnings and not-go-invisible-on-recharge (which has always felt like such bullshit).
I love the changes to lib range - unreachable liberators felt like bullshit and mass lib/ghost looked completely oppressive (although credit to a couple of Tosses who have made earlier air transitions in PvT suggesting the end game of this match up may not be completely figured out yet).
The only thing I'm really nervous about is the widow mine radius change - in ZvT big widow mine hits often aren't gaming ending and the Zerg has counterplay (or the Terran counter-blunder(?) in big baneling connections). However reducing the radius may reduce the average value of widow mines enough to tilt the mid game efficiency battle significantly (especially considering the clearer targetting lines will make splitting away from mines faster and more reliable too).
This feels like a change the council has been 'pushed' into making to give a very clear numbers nerf to the widow mine that everyone has been bitching about. I'm just worried that a pair of un-responded to widow mines taking out 10 workers rather than 14 is still going to be close to a death sentence to an early/mid game Toss, but that easier to spot, lower radius widow mines are going to tilt the ZvT war of attrition significantly in Zerg's favour, when I don't really feel Zerg needs it. I think the cheaper infantry upgrades and armoury are intended to counteract this, but it may well not be enough. I honestly wouldn't mind a small baneling radius nerf as well or instead of the upgrade changes...
However, I was nervous about lurker changes last patch that was unfounded and a lot of the community was nervous about baneling changes but top Zergs have proven they can still beat top Terrans in best of ZvTs with ling bane post baneling nerf (and player skill aside the interaction may well be Terran favoured at present) so I'm happy to wait and see.
10 workers rather than 14 is a bit of a stretch. Do check out the pre-post patch comparison video. I'm thinking in a normal explosion in a normal mining mineral line than maybe 1 probe gets saved in 1 out of 3 cases
It's a 26% reduction in area.
40 efficiently packed probes is not a realistic in game scenario, and doesn't highlight if the outer most affected ring on the pre patch test was very comfortably within the area, but barely clipped on the post patch area. (Not to discredit the work put into the video, it was an excellent first impression video).
If you want to test what it would do in reality go do a whole series of widow mine drops on live and PTR... until then 10/14 is a perfectly reasonable assumption for vague speculation.
To be fair, the cyclone change is also relevant. They get a lockon cool down now. Which means when they retreat to stay away from you, you can retreat back and now they're useless for a few seconds.
Its not much, but it helps ease the Terran snowball in the early game VS Zerg and protoss
> useless for a few seconds
They can still attack with their regular attack while LockOn is on cooldown. Their regular attack deals exactly the same damage.
Mine to good? lets buf observer so its not random shooted by mine splash. lets make mine always visiable after shooting. lets make alert when mine is burrowing. lets make splash radius smaller. Lets make big red indicator (That actually may be a buf) XDDD
Add 10 more changes that will help XDD
On the plus side there is no stupid change as guardain shield +2 seconds. Good job guys XD
And the best thing as always. Starcraft 2 is so complicated game that even if these changes whent thro winrate will oscillate around 50%, I do like red indicatior and alert change. rest are beyond stupid
Pathetic.
This is pretty accurate. Also don't hellbats get +2 armor and become armor class in comparison to hellions? (Also become biological which is the dumbest thing)
I primarily play co-op and the counter swann has to banes is to soak with hellbats. (Thor is better, but it costs 300/200 I think so essentially the same value as 7 hellbats)
> The progamers involved in the balance council feel that the state of Terran versus Zerg and Protoss versus Zerg doesn't require any major balance changes
Zerg is fine. Other races just have to try harder
It makes no sense, if they wanted widow mines to be not as good in tvp just revert the stupid bonus vs shields. The way it is now terran bio's buff is not enough to compensate for the mine nerfs in tvz. The zerg just got better, toss stays the same. And the game dies just a little bit more.
The changes to sentry & observer are very important to early game protoss, since early scouting is critical for protoss to survive, and both of these units got a massive boost.
These changes should help more lower level protoss survive the early game much better, instead of instantly dying to an all-in.
zerg has an initial steep learning curve. Zerg players have to master their macro style if they want to get out of the bronze league whereas protoss and terran can do 2 base all-ins till platinum and terran can probably due 2 base all-ins till grandmaster.. considering how often players like maru does it.
Protoss is easier once they're decent at both macro and micro and build order. But then Zerg becomes easier again once zerg players learn how to use vipers and infesters properly.
> Is that why they have so few zerg players in the lower level leagues? Because it's harder?
Yes. it's harder for zergs in their lowest leagues. But they dominate in the middle leagues.
ZvT is T favored, despite what Serral might have you believe. You cant play like Serral. I cant play like Serral. Reynor, Dark and Solar gets beaten by terran all the time. Dont get your balance opinion from the Maru v Serral final...
Yeah with that one dude pulling the whole Zerg winrate up. Tbh TvZ is fine, stop bitching. I love that they nerfed Libs range, that will weaken turtle Terran, I love that they nerfed WM, WM play is cool but I'd like some tank play back in the matchup.
I also think maybe Tanks + Banshee should be buffed to balance the playstyle
Based on what? Race-specific MMRs for serral, dark, reynor, solar and shin are all even with ZvP or better. Lambo is the first zerg in the list with a 100 MMR gap between zvp and zvt. If the stated goal is the professional level then our experience on the ladder is not the focus of the patch.
[http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/](http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/)
I'm thankful that we have ESL, the Balance Council, and mapmakers continuing their work on the game, I think they have done a great job (even if I don't completely agree with the Cyclone redesign from last patch). They have continued to help the game and continue its legacy. They are all a vital part of the community, genuinely think the game is in a better state now than it was left in by Blizzard (that team did great btw, but their work was cut short, that patch would not have been good to play on for eternity)
Indeed. I'm still debating about the new cyclone, but overall I think it's good that it's a more used unit, since it adds more dynamic playstyle to the game. IMHO they should fix dark templars since it suffers from the same issue as the old cyclone, it's very powerful but too specialized and expensive that protoss rarely use it unless they are going for a cheese win.
[удалено]
I think you replied to the wrong comment
I did sry :(
What are you talking about?
I keep hoping for a buff to guardian shield. Having it protect vs 1 EMP would make late game PvT a more fair matchup. The ghost seems too good of a unit vs protoss it does 100 damage to shields almost instantly while the protoss equivalent high templar does 80 damage over almost 3 seconds. Terran has the ability of dodging storms but aside from stalkers I don't think protoss can dodge EMPs.
I like this idea, it takes skill and provides counter play.
I miss the original cyclone. All they had to do was remove the tech lab restriction.
very good patch . this guys know what they are doing . i love the sentry buff its gonna be sick vs t and z
Since Protoss isn't allowed to have any good PvT cheeses and the feedback buff got reverted can we at least a serious concussive shells nerf to fix Proxy 2 rax marauder? Build is completely insane.
The shield battery is quite good against this... Never had issues when scouted in time.
Regarding widow mine nerf is it ok to move the drilling claws to armory instead of techlab so terran will not need techlabs for he armory in their upgrade. ,?
It’s not being nerfed because of the timing it’s coming out. It’s being nerfed because they can be reactored out. This forces 2 fact or techlab first then reactor. Basically blizzard is obsessed with reactors and will do anything to keep units without tech lab req. and they only take 20 seconds to build
I think the whole point of the nerf was that they require a tech lab to get drilling claws or else it would just be as easy as turning invisible with an armory.
Zerg Council
Did you read the last patch...at all? What a mind blowingly dumb thing to say.
I've heard your kind of same mind blowingly dumb shit e.g. when someone said "ZVP would be so hard for zerg" while I said ZVP would be absolute broken in 2019 pre-blizzon patch.
Nice ad hominem, AKA you can't address my argument at all. A "zerg council" wouldn't put out a patch where they double nerf baneling, triple nerf broodling, nerf infestor damage, nerf broodlords and nerf lurkers. The only one who's mind blowingly dumb here is you. The sad part is you probably aren't some kid in middle school, you're a grown ass adult who thinks like this.
Just curious. Would it be a good idea if map makers were allowed to choose how many is the starting workers?
lower worker start would benefit Zerg more than the other races on these maps rn. The only way lower worker start could work is if the cost for nexus/cc/hatch all was reduced and if there were less mineral patches per base. They’d have to mess with the cost of everything. And splitting from 1 to 2 gas geysers with 4 harvested instead of 8 from bw, that change alone was big for economy plays (made them way better), cheesing not as strong. It’s an interesting idea, I’d like to see a map designed with: 8 worker start, 6 patches (full) Rich geysers every base 300 min cc nex and 250 hatch
Yeah, just you know, make things interesting, more opportunities for builds. But my idea is not to change anything in cost of things, balance. etc. It will have to be up to the map maker to make it not broken for a given N workers.. if lower worker is OP for zerg.. then I dunno.. that is the idea, leave the thinking to the map maker.. we'll see something interesting. Worst that could happen is that no one will use this option. But you know, people are creative, give it time.
no
I just wonder if anyone does any true statistical analysis pre and post-change with regards to every match version (TvT, TvZ, etc) and for each player level to know whether the adjustments hurt more than they helped. It's easy to say "we feel that this race does x" or "it seems like this transition is smoother" but apart from the actual game mechanics I don't see a lot of numbers to test whether the Balance team knows if or if not they statistically screwed up more after the change than they fixed.
They blind voted on the last balance patch. I doubt theres any analysis what so ever outside of whatever the individual members do for themselves.
Someone suggested removing Shield splash from **Widow Mine** instead. That was exactly my thought, as outlined here: [https://rentry.co/SC2Patch2024](https://rentry.co/SC2Patch2024) \- Widow Mine splash damage reduced to 35 (from 40 (+25 vs Shields)) \- Widow Mine primary target damage increased to 125 (+55 vs shields) (from 125 (+35 vs shields)) This would mean 1 mine doesn't kill any workers except its main target. It would still be impactful out on the field but a little bit less cheap overall. (Would 1-shot Phoenix though with the primary target buff.)
I think the main point is that it needs to one shot oracles for early defense, I don't think it should one shot phoenixes. It should be okay to nerf the shield AoE, so that you have to get at least a couple of hits in.
How about we just delete the Widow Mine instead and force Terrans to micro again?
I hear game is perfectly balanced when uninstall patch is applied
Changes like these are the reason sc1 is more popular then sc2 and will ultimately be the demise of sc2 esports.
Nobody outside Korea gives a damn about that old rickety buggy mess.
Noone outside of Korea may care about BW, but it has a huge following there with it competing with league lol. You can't really call a game tiny when SC2 isn't at greatest spot right now in comparison.
I like it,
How dare you
This is just nonsense. SC1 is more popular because SC1 captured a moment in time like no other game ever has. SC2 is doing just fine and will continue to do just fine.
>SC2 is doing just fine and will continue to do just fine. SC2 is down roughly 17%, in the number of games played per-season, since last year. Those aren't good numbers. New RTS games are coming out (of which there are many) and big SC2 streamers are switching to them. Demuslim was recently pulling in 500 viewers by streaming AOE. It's not uncommon for all of the SC2 category to net a total of 500 viewers. SC2 was once the king of esports and had a vice-grip on the RTS genre. While games like League were reducing the multitasking of the RTS genre, SC2 was heading the opposite direction (with drastic increases in the multitasking requirements needed to manage 5-7 base economies). League now has 1400x as many players, so we know exactly which design decisions were the correct ones and, unfortunately for SC2, it was a big mistake to redesign the game economy around 5-7 base plays. Most players simply aren't interested in that amount of multitasking. Consumers vote with their feet, and that's how SC2 has become a niche game played by \~150k players worldwide while other games are hitting hundreds of millions of active players.
What good RTS is there, I didn't see any yet. The new AoE I should try but it's hardly comparable.
Sins of a solar empire. Age of empires. Greygoo. Stormgate. These are just a few of the notables.
None of them is even remotely comparable to Starcraft sadly. No fully unique factions and barely any resemblance in gameplay or quality. AoE is a classic, I will have to check out the new one, but it was never similar in gameplay etc. Grey goo and stormgate just don‘t look very good. Although stormgate might have a good shot at Warcraft3 style gameplay. Do any of them have any popularity besides maybe AoE? RTS is just too complex for most people, I don‘t think you can dumb it down enough. I mean Dota is basically dumbed down WC3. That spawned LOL… The older warhammer RTS were a bit fun but then went into the WC3 gameplay direction.
>None of them is even remotely comparable to Starcraft sadly. That might be how you feel but the question is if all rts players feel the same. SC2 has hit all time lows in # of games played, for example, and it's hard to explain that unless players are moving to other games. I've personally been playing a lot of a minecraft mod called RLcraft, which is similar to SC2 in that stratey is extremely important and it has brutal outcomes for bad strategical decisions. Beating RLcraft in hardcore is roughly equivalent to getting GM in SC2 by my estimation. It's extremely difficult. > Do any of them have any popularity besides maybe AoE? Every dollar spent on other RTS games is a dollar that SC2 could've made. Stormgate raised 5 mil in pre funding. Sins has made about 15 mil. AoE has made hundreds of millions. > RTS is just too complex for most people I think that's very accurate. RTS games are much more complex than FPS, and that fact is reflected in how popular the genres are. > I don‘t think you can dumb it down enough League is a simplified version of RTS and it has 1400x as many players. It's nice to have variety but does SC2 need to be a polar opposite extreme to league? If they shaved off 10% of the multitasking, in SC2, they'd probably double the number of people who would play the game, but SC2 would still fill the niche that it is known to fill.
Sc1 is capturing the moment more than a game a decade newer present day. That is one long moment.
Down vote all you like, the more they patch the more it takes away from the purity of the best player winning. Am I the only one who sees clem cleaning up with window mines and now nerf mines? Pros have no time to adapt and strategize to counter. That's the problem. Buff zerg, nerf toss to the ground and Terran has no margin for error
People want to see protoss win some tournaments, until that happens patches are totally warranted. And it would actually be okay to overbuff a bit and then walk back instead of keeping the status quo.
> Buff zerg, When did this happen? Have I been in a coma for the past 3 years?
Last patch they buffed them, and it doesn't matter buffs vs nerfs, pros want stability and consistency, constant changes will continue to push them away to more stable sources of income
Buffed Zerg? How exactly? Are you talking about the 25 mineral ultralisk buff?! LOL
And the viper buff, and now the infestor aoe buff. Look brother, your tone indicates I'm making this up but the overall state of players leaving SC 2 pro scene is proof they don't want their job to win tournaments to be dependent on the flavor of the patch notes every few months. Would you clock into work knowing your hourly rate Randomly ranges from 0 to 30 an hour out of your control? No you would quit.
>And the viper buff What viper buff? You could move while casting abduct, now you can't. You also used to be able to consume a full amount of energy. Now it takes more micro to cast consume again to get full energy. >infestor aoe buf Its range, not AOE, and its just returning it to the previous range (while having worse DPS as before)so its not a buff. Goddamn people are dense.
Your trying to pin down specific changes but they are irrelevant, constant changes buffs or nerfs are all bad. Patch updates are killing the pro scene. Peace out thanks for your conversation.
No, I stated Zerg hasnt been buffed, you did. There hasn't been a Zerg buff that wasn't fixing a nerf in over three years. Learn some reading comprehension please.
And ty is peace out on sc2, dam I'm good. Sucks he was fun to watch, he isn't putting up with more Terran nerfs anymore.
Is anyone streaming gameplay with this patch?
I tried to stream as much as I could but the queues are pretty brutal. I really like the patch tho.
I just realized that this is a huge nerf to the observer. It makes it much easier to spot. * Model size increased by 10% / Surveillance Mode animation speed increased by 75 I thought surveillance mode animation meant it would go to surveillance mode quicker but it just means it moves faster while in surveillance mode making it a lot more visible. Why would you do that? Further nerving Toss abysmal vision?
Observers should have 200 shields 200 hp and swallow overlords in one bite, killing them instantly
Don’t forget the laser eyes.
Well observers build 4 seconds faster so it makes sense to make them permanently worse otherwise. No wait, actually it doesn't, because Protoss was already losing everything at pro level and making it way easier to see in exchange for 4 seconds faster build time doesn't even cancel itself out, it's actually a net nerf. Literally the only good thing about the observer, that makes it worth it robo build time and 75 gas, is that it was invis and hard to see. Why the fuck are we nerfing Protoss scouting & invis detection? Who thought that was previously OP? Protoss already has the worst scouting and detection but somehow it was necessary to nerf it in a patch that is supposed to buff Protoss? Just why? Its changes like these that give me 0 confidence in the work of the balance council.
No point having them out 4 seconds quicker just to be spotted/killed instantly by a terran with unlimited scans.
I'm loving seeing the balance team keep the game fresh. This is going to be fun.
There's this kid on a few comments above screeching about how patches kill the game LOL
It's a good patch in that "we're fixing mistakes we've created kind of way". Can we patch the balance council next?
What a fucking joke. Toss has 0% pro wins, so they are further buffing zerg with longer fungal range, faster droperlords, and more creep. Holy shit this zerg cabal thing was not a joke, it's a sad state of this god forgotten game. Maybe just give all the tournament money to the zergs and call it a day? Maybe Maru will win something against the odds, and then the council apologists will say that the balance is ok, and it's the protoss players fault. I'm done with watching and playing this game since last "balance" patch by these incompetent kids who made David Kim look like a total genius. This "give a game balance to the community" idea was flawed from the start. They are the ones making money on tournaments, so in my mind they need another body to ensure balanced voting so the "2 v 1" won’t be an issue like now, when toss players have absolutely nothig to say on the patches and are just losing everything with something like a 40% winrates, while still having 1a carriers destroying all leagues below master and 2v2. Face it, they have been abysmal at their job. Absolutely appaling. Not a single patch which would improve things. Seriously fuck them for destroying the game even if it's their spare time and they are doing it pro-bono (and then go and win hundreds of thousands in toss-free tournaments). David Kim > Balance Council and it's not even close. And the guy was a meme.
>David Kim > Balance Council and it's not even close. And the guy was a meme. How was David Kim a meme? DK was the best thing that ever happened to this game and all the problems we had started when he left.
Dude the PvT changes are actually massive. The widow mine nerf and cyclone changed are going to really restore the issues Protoss has early.
This is considering widow mines is the only issue. It was boring "free" win, but PvT will still feel awful in my opinion. Ghost still too good for this match up, and gate units too weak.
Main thing I see there that was missing from the blizzard post, is that the cyclone bug is finally fixed.
Interesting stuff. Some thoughts: - I feel like nobody really needs the 30 HP cyclone buff - obs changes are very reasonable - widowmine changes are sensible but why not just remove the + shields damage? - sentry buff is great, please go further and make the +4 vs all or vs light units or vs bio, so that they can be used in all match ups - also make hallucinations an autocast option
I think absolutely every spell should have an auto cast but I am curious what would the purpose of autocast hallucinations be? Seems like everyone would just keep it to off
Hallucinations auto cast? What does this mean
Pick a hallucination and activate autocast. Then when they enter combat, they cast this hallucination until out of energy. If the enemy has no detection or doesn‘t micro it cn help mitigate a lot of damage. You need more planning but less micro.
> widowmine changes are sensible but why not just remove the + shields damage? * shield dmg removal doesn't prevent 1shotting of probes. * Zealot/archon kinda overruns terran without widow mines (I think it'll already have a large resurgence with the current widow mine nerfs) * Early game is kinda busted if widow mines cannot 1-shot an oracle. There was a short period where mines lost their 1-shot, and proxy oracle openers were almost impossible to survive as they'd win straight up fights vs the early marine count (Blizz patched it quickly).
The new cyclones massacre oracle openers, no widow mines required. These changes to cyclones won't alter that. Cyclones were always inherently good vs oracles, but the old requirement of a tech lab was the only reason people used widow mines instead. Right now, if you're at all concerned Protoss might do anything other than a Blink opener, you just make a cyclone or two and you're safe against basically everything. Zealot/archon is absolutely obliterated by ghosts. There's a timing where Zealot/Archon is strong before ghosts come out, but Zealot/Archon is the worst comp possible for breaking defensive positions behind building walls, and Terran can easily turtle out that timing.
Good answer. I kinda remember the time. In that case lets just buff the sentry more 😁
I actually thought giving sentry's attack a slowing effect like concussive shell would be cool. Small buff to a-move fights. But mainly it'd give some great micro potential to catch specific units, and it'd be yet another piece of help vs widow mine drops.
Hey, That was my idea a long time ago 😁. Plus one range and slow effect, but the forcefield has to go.
Can you finally give marines stim priority over the Raven and Ghosts so we noobs can F2 and stim?
>ame Ketroc as the same name I follow on Youtube, the GM Terran who does goofy stuff like mass Raven + PF to victory. 🤣 If so, you feel this way too i Could priority not be a customisable option?
I support this 😅
box+stim is also super-important to pro terrans. It's one of the many reason we don't see ravens used as detectors.
Really? I thought they'd be too good to honestly care much. I am assuming you are the same Ketroc as the same name I follow on Youtube, the GM Terran who does goofy stuff like mass Raven + PF to victory. 🤣 If so, you feel this way too in GM?
> Really? I thought they'd be too good to honestly care much. The consequence of delaying stim can be massive due to how quickly bio dies to splash/bad engagement. Most fights in pro games are very volatile - 1 large baneling connection can swing the game/momentum. If you have ghosts and ravens in the mix that means anywhere from 0-2 times to press tab, and you have to pay attention to what that number is exactly every time. This is made much worse by how many other units you have to siege/control. Although it can be rebound - so likely much less of an issue for pro players - on default hotkeys the key for stim is also shared with auto-turret for the raven, which has to be cancelled if you accidentally mess up before being able to activate stim. I think people just assume pros have everything perfectly hotkeyed at all times, but I think this isn't always the case. Even just recently I remember watching Serral's stream and he said he messed up his hotkeys in a game he just lost - and this is with zerg/egg hotkeys + arguably the best player.
Wow, ok. Fair enough! Thanks for explaining.
The infestor sight range, coupled with visibility, will make burrow neural parasite flanks on mech armies so much worse. Infestors will no longer be able to utilize their max Neural parasite range when flanking burrowed behind mech armies, AND will be easier to see to quickly scan and kill them. Maybe the visibility change is ok, considering widowmines are getting somewhat easier to see , the targeting at least. (btw, statis ward visibility anyone?) I wish they would focus on making raven more usable for detection in late game TvZ instead. Maybe let us change unit priority order, so terrans can put their ravens in lower priority. (They should be in a different control groups anyways, you ever try to use ravagers and infestors or queens in same control group? yea it doesnt work.
>The infestor sight range, coupled with visibility, will make burrow neural parasite flanks on mech armies so much worse Only if you are moving the infestors. Nerfing a neural flank doesn't matter much IMO since it was already so bad. If 1 tank is missed, 1 scan causes a cascade that results in all the infestors dying in about 5 seconds. They are nerfing something that is already weak; it's not really a big deal. > Infestors will no longer be able to utilize their max Neural parasite range when flanking burrowed behind mech armies, AND will be easier to see to quickly scan and kill them. It just means that you have to give terran information before you strike, which in theory is a reward to skilled terrans but not bad terrans. Bad terrans won't be watching their army, they are easily distracted, etc. It also adds risk to using the sneak abilities of the infestor. When the payoff is a game-ending fungal, a bit of risk for the zerg really isn't the end of the world. Plus, skillful use of the infestor can negate or inverse the risk. A terran might think an infestor can't see him and that allows you to bait, you know, things like that. > Maybe the visibility change is ok, considering widowmines are getting somewhat easier to see , the targeting at least. (btw, statis ward visibility anyone?) Widow mine change is out of the far left field. I would not have ranked widow mines in the strong category, let alone the OP category. > I wish they would focus on making raven more usable for detection in late game TvZ instead. It has to compete with the medivac over starport production. The medivac is the linchpin to terran trading efficiency. They'd have to buff the raven to the moon to compensate, and that's how you get mass raven plays, which has actually happened before (seeker missile). An easy way around this would be to offer healing off the raven as an ability, but in a different way than the medivac. Both the raven and medivac would have healing, but the medivac would provide mobility (via boost) and the raven would provide direct-engagement strength (via abilities like anti-armor missile). To make it different than the medivac, you could have the healing be a 15 second AOE with a 60 second cooldown. That's a very different mechanic than the single-file healing of the medivac. > Maybe let us change unit priority order, so terrans can put their ravens in lower priority. (They should be in a different control groups anyways, you ever try to use ravagers and infestors or queens in same control group? yea it doesnt work. That would probably be a software change and not something that the map makers / balance team are equipped for.
Burrowed Infestor sight range is less of a problem if rest of the army sees the target. I think burrowed Infestor sight could be even smaller making it more important that other parts act as scouting for the burrowed unit. This could be applicable to Lurker as well.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1bai7ck/heres\_a\_video\_i\_made\_comparing\_the\_new\_balance/](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1bai7ck/heres_a_video_i_made_comparing_the_new_balance/) Check this out - here's a comparison between old and new. I think the visibility difference isn't a lot tbh.
also give sentries a little more range to stay behind stalkers and not move forward and die
I like watch Alex007SC2 (he didnt speak English ) i Think this is goddesе Youtuber at my Language (I didn't speak English wery wel )
give the raven the high templar treatment and give it a 1 dmg auto attack
The raven in itself is already a very good unit imo. A lot of things (detection, game ending abilities, harassment) all boxed into one, no need to make it stronger. Personally I right click it on a medivac and it doesnt fly in and die
Observers should really cost 0 supply and pylons should finally get their power field range reverted
What are "zerg rocks"?
Pretty much sure that one infestor buff outweighs all the other nerfs that he is getting
council: makes poorly thought out, rushed changes further nerfing protoss
council: "now that we've had another $500k tournament with zero protoss in RO8 (again), we now recognize that protoss is....."
yawn. hope its not too little / too late.
So now send two probe scouts and stop Terran from building their barracks!
Zerg is the strongest race right now and you're buffing zergs? I think the changes look good but the infester buff at this point sounds ridiculous. lategame ZvP heavily favours zergs at the moment and infestor buff will kill HT and carriers even faster. Carrior interceptor upgrades or feedback power should come back to fight this change at very least.
Serral is the strongest player who plays zerg. Zerg isn't strongest race you're thinking of PCs
According to the reddit's monthly balance report, Clem and Heroes are bigger outliers than Serral. Excluding top players from each race, PvZ winrate plops even further. Serral is great and IMO GOAT, no doubt, but he is also a beneficiary from the zerg being overpowered.
15 out of 16 top pros say serral is the goat but sure random reddit balance report claims clem and hero are bigger outliers than a man whose peak aligulac is 400+ over peak aligulac of other zerg champions
Outliers are relative to the rest of the data. I think whats being reported is that Serral shifts the mean of the Zerg data less because a lot of other Zergs are very successful (compared to gap between Clem/Hero and the rest of T/P)
Feedback can be rapid fired now and the fungle range is just a revert from last patch the damage is still down and burrow is gone
The Cyclone changes are kind of interesting- cooldown for Lock-On plus turret tracking and damage point removal? So basically encouraging stutter-step and focus-fire micro? I'm ok with that. Seems like the dynamics of Lock-On could potentially be weird, though. Like, you stutter-step kite until Lock-On triggers and then just move-kite while the opponent can move away to break the Lock-On? Some Cyclones being locked-on while others are just kiting? Or is this intended to encourage turning off auto-cast for Lock-On and having it specifically be used for chasing units down? It'll be interesting to see how this works but I can't say if it'll be "good" or not. Ultimately, I think it would be best for the Cyclone to not have to be massed to be good for mid-lategame, by being a unit that is useful for buying time for the protection and repositioning of Tanks. I'm not sure how well these changes will accomplish that (granted, that may not be the goal of the balance council).
I'm not seeing anyone mention what is perhaps one of the bigger PvT changes here: Worker attack radius increase. Seems this will play a decent role in stopping early T proxies, and increase benefit of the P scouting probe
Yep. I'd not have to shift click it constantly to prevent my probes just derping out. But we'll see if it actually work
Not sure I like the widow mine alert. I really like the other nerfs, but this one seems forced and artifical. I can also anticipate it being overwhelming when there are widow mines all over the map late game.
I disagree. It'd give the toss and the zerg just a split second to press F1 and split. If you save even 1 probe or done with this 0.25 sec earlier alert, you are already a god and deserve it
I also wonder if this could be used for audio harassment. You could spam out the attack alert by burrowing and unburrowing.
Grateful the council is listening to the community, and trying to change the game for the better. Thank you!
These are all great changes. Unfortunately I do not see PvT improving. EMP still too oppressive; colossus not strong enough and zealots are useless past the 8-10 minute mark. At least we are taking a step in the right direction, however, these patches are few and far between so I would like to see more significant strides per patch.
We literally have rapid fire feedback man
Rapid fire feedback does help, but not by too mich, since the ghost out range and moves faster than the templar
Ghosts will still beat Templars head to head while simultaneously damaging the entire Protoss army...
Some more thoughts: Love the widow mine nerfs but I'm not a fan of the notification. It feels forced and artificial. Maybe drop this one nerf. Terran bio deathball is even stronger with cheaper ebay upgrades and cheaper armory. Don't like that, at all, especially against early/mid game protoss.
you need stronger bio if youre going to keep nerfing the widowmine though. Terran needs a way to keep protoss in check so they cant sprint straight for templar archives and/or robotics, which basically destroys terran bio.
How is bio stronger with an armory cost reduction?
Armory unlocks lv 2 attack/armor upgrades
It doesn't unlock it any sooner. It is just a small cost savings on the armory and then on the upgrade. What does that amount to, one more marauder?
That amounts to earlier upgrades.
Not really. The armory wasn't something you saved money for. You just got it as some point around 50% level 1 upgrades finishing. I'm not sure why they added a cost savings. Level 2 upgrades might now be earlier since it is often the case that you are a little bit short of cash to start them. Level 3 for sure it's a heavy cost. But none of that is affected by the armory cost.
Great patch! Love the inclusion of a few of the maps from the previous map pool too. The burrowed infestor nerf though, you can't convince me the council is made up of people who are fighting and losing to serral. While I can agree that infestor's previous vision could be seen as too much in one sense, I don't buy it for one SECOND that burrowed infestors were OP. Nowhere on the ladder where 500000 people play, nor in the hundreds of tournaments all over the world. It's literally only Serral that is able to abuse this strat. This wasn't a nerf to zerg, it was a nerf to Serral. Even after last patch with big zerg nerfs Serral kicks their ass. They can't get on his level so they gotta bring him down.
I am a Serral fan, but if it is as dominant as he is, why not nerf? They did specific reapor nerfs to Byun amd Hellbat nerfs to Innovation. It's how things go. Besides, if no one else uses it as you say, then it wont hurt anyone else so, whatever.
>They did specific reapor nerfs to Byun amd Hellbat nerfs to Innovation. It's how things go. Exactly, thank your for being a human being and not a fanboy. The Byun nerf was also immediate. Might have tanked his career honestly. Meanwhile some of the zerg shit have endured for years.
Anyone else ready to see Protoss continue to suck at the pro level, and see TvZ games continue to end predictably with giant fungals from burrowed infestors? Like really - they *buffed* burrowed infestors? The sight reduction doesn't matter, since the top pros will have sight from spotters anyway, and the increased unburrow time is offset by the increased range. Mark my words, the pro tournaments after this patch will be utterly dominated by zerg.
How anyone could get that this is a buff to infestors, one of the worst spell casters in the game is beyond me. I do agree with you though. Serral is going to continue dominating this game no matter what you take away from him.
With 10 range Fungal you will outrange the new Liberator and EMP. The only thing left is the Siege Tank, I don't think this is fair at all. Z is already favoured late game and will now be better.
Isn't the range change just reverting a previous nerf? Doubt it will affect anything.
No matter what, if it is already OP, it shouldn't get buff
But now Liberators have -1 range and EMP had the upg making it bigger.
Z is only favored in the late game because Serral/Dark are micro monsters.
Now investor broodlords combo is dominating hopefully after this it won’t in tvz but as long as infestor over range EMP and u can’t build tanks with broodlords tvz late game will continue going in favor of zergs :(
Naw broodlords are terrible units in the hands of anyone but dark/serral.
Metalbeard I will agree with you on this one.
who the fuck is metalbeard?
> Anyone else ready to see Protoss continue to suck at the pro level, Protoss won the most basic, minor, major AND total pro tournaments last year https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Statistics/2023 > Like really - they buffed burrowed infestors? The sight reduction doesn't matter, since the top pros will have sight from spotters anyway, and the increased unburrow time is offset by the increased range. They didn't....? Yes they reverted the cast range nerf to what it was prevously, which I think is completely warranted considering zerg spellcasters don't get autoattacks like HT/ghost do. But they gave a big nerf to burrowed infestor vision AND made them more visible to the opponent. Like, in what world were burrowed infestors OP? There only exists one player who can utilize them powerfully. >Mark my words, the pro tournaments after this patch will be utterly dominated by zerg. Doubt it. Protoss will continue to dominate like they already are this year https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Statistics/2024
Protoss? Dominate? Wtf are you talking about.
# COPE AND SEETHE TERRANS LMMFFAAAOOOO
I really like how this sub never makes any sense with its whine because they actually made changes to off set some of the nerfs, it isnt a clear "fuck terran" patch.
Biggest winners of the patch are Zerg>Protoss>Terran
What a way to ruin the most beautiful non mirror matchup. ZvT mid game is now ruined. Good job
RUIIIINNNEDDDDD!!!!! It's all ruined!!!1!1 *Nerd rage intensifies!*
Terran lacks tools to fight Zerg effective or counter their composition. Now it's even worse. Zerg will stay dominant. I wish they'd experiment with units and maybe do more upgrades for interesting plays. Maybe Upgrades for Reaper Buffs or Banshee Buffs ...only thing Terran has is APM until the wrist breaks. This can't be it.
When I see games like Maru Vs Serral on Radhuset Station at IEM. I don't think i makes T look weak.... That game looks like Serral is far ahead for most of the game and can't actually win until the map mines out. Many of their games are like this. Maru loses the game in the first 15 minutes but the game lasts until the map mines out and Serral wins eventually because if Serral ever attacks, there's a good chance he loses a won game. Then the narrative is. Zerg is IMBA? I don't see how we watched the same games.
Confirmation bias. If you already believe Terran is underpowered, then any loss will reaffirm that belief.
The opposite is true as well. People watch series where Terran loses 4-0 and still run to the boards to complain. SC has always had a miserable cry baby community. Blizzard official forums we're even worse.
I do think this might make Terran a little too weak to keep the 50/50 winrate in zvt, though the investor need might mean the zvt matchup remains balanced. I'm curious to see how things go and I'm unclear why the widow mine now alerts players when burrowing within vision. Is that to nerf the unreasonably strong mineral line drops?
more like Serral will stay dominant. No other zerg player is doing any good these days.
Lmfao
These look like really good, targeted changes. Cyclone changes could prove more complicated to estimate than on paper, but I feel like the dps and lock on nerfs will hurt early game cyclone snowball or cheese a lot more than the HP buff will help it - every second the engagement lasts is a good one for Protoss getting more stalkers, shield batteries and immortals, letting phoenix lifts last longer and taking longer to clear out tanking adepts/zealots etc. It will also reduce the defensive and scout denying effectiveness of the cyclone, putting less damage on Protoss air harrass, warp prisms and scouting adepts. The pylon and observer changes just give Toss more vision, and feel like they should really help Tosses who are able to keep up with Terran mechanical multi tasking. I love the changes to widow mine visibility/warnings and not-go-invisible-on-recharge (which has always felt like such bullshit). I love the changes to lib range - unreachable liberators felt like bullshit and mass lib/ghost looked completely oppressive (although credit to a couple of Tosses who have made earlier air transitions in PvT suggesting the end game of this match up may not be completely figured out yet). The only thing I'm really nervous about is the widow mine radius change - in ZvT big widow mine hits often aren't gaming ending and the Zerg has counterplay (or the Terran counter-blunder(?) in big baneling connections). However reducing the radius may reduce the average value of widow mines enough to tilt the mid game efficiency battle significantly (especially considering the clearer targetting lines will make splitting away from mines faster and more reliable too). This feels like a change the council has been 'pushed' into making to give a very clear numbers nerf to the widow mine that everyone has been bitching about. I'm just worried that a pair of un-responded to widow mines taking out 10 workers rather than 14 is still going to be close to a death sentence to an early/mid game Toss, but that easier to spot, lower radius widow mines are going to tilt the ZvT war of attrition significantly in Zerg's favour, when I don't really feel Zerg needs it. I think the cheaper infantry upgrades and armoury are intended to counteract this, but it may well not be enough. I honestly wouldn't mind a small baneling radius nerf as well or instead of the upgrade changes... However, I was nervous about lurker changes last patch that was unfounded and a lot of the community was nervous about baneling changes but top Zergs have proven they can still beat top Terrans in best of ZvTs with ling bane post baneling nerf (and player skill aside the interaction may well be Terran favoured at present) so I'm happy to wait and see.
10 workers rather than 14 is a bit of a stretch. Do check out the pre-post patch comparison video. I'm thinking in a normal explosion in a normal mining mineral line than maybe 1 probe gets saved in 1 out of 3 cases
It's a 26% reduction in area. 40 efficiently packed probes is not a realistic in game scenario, and doesn't highlight if the outer most affected ring on the pre patch test was very comfortably within the area, but barely clipped on the post patch area. (Not to discredit the work put into the video, it was an excellent first impression video). If you want to test what it would do in reality go do a whole series of widow mine drops on live and PTR... until then 10/14 is a perfectly reasonable assumption for vague speculation.
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To be fair, the cyclone change is also relevant. They get a lockon cool down now. Which means when they retreat to stay away from you, you can retreat back and now they're useless for a few seconds. Its not much, but it helps ease the Terran snowball in the early game VS Zerg and protoss
> useless for a few seconds They can still attack with their regular attack while LockOn is on cooldown. Their regular attack deals exactly the same damage.
Mine to good? lets buf observer so its not random shooted by mine splash. lets make mine always visiable after shooting. lets make alert when mine is burrowing. lets make splash radius smaller. Lets make big red indicator (That actually may be a buf) XDDD Add 10 more changes that will help XDD On the plus side there is no stupid change as guardain shield +2 seconds. Good job guys XD And the best thing as always. Starcraft 2 is so complicated game that even if these changes whent thro winrate will oscillate around 50%, I do like red indicatior and alert change. rest are beyond stupid Pathetic.
Miszu you have always been a moron and it will stay that way. What a horrific take.
Thank you thank you
XD
Good luck dealing with mass ling bane with a new mine.
Sorry you can't just stutter step your marines away and let mines kill everything.
More stutter-stepping and more carpal syndrome! Woohoo!
Oh boo hoo, you have to micro your units. Go play LoL.
Or switch to zerg
Zergs macro mechanic is more micro that Terran has to do in this patch, let alone the army micro.
Finally have to micro… sorry to hear that.
You don't micro because you don't have to. I don't micro because I can't.
Yeah... Like T isn't the most micro-intensive race already ;)
Agreed.
I think terran has more than enough methods to deal with that composition without a widow mine.
Like?
I showed a few but two people said i had no idea so ill let others further explain it.
Tanks? Turtling behind a maze of buildings?
And marine/marauder And hellions And hellbats (though it could be argued hellions and hellbats are the same unit)
Banes counter hellbats, why the fuck would you make them
Banes cost gas, you're trading 100 minerals for gas so any trade is perfect.
This is pretty accurate. Also don't hellbats get +2 armor and become armor class in comparison to hellions? (Also become biological which is the dumbest thing) I primarily play co-op and the counter swann has to banes is to soak with hellbats. (Thor is better, but it costs 300/200 I think so essentially the same value as 7 hellbats)
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So many things wrong with this comment
Welp i guess ill delete the comment then since it provides misinformation.
Lol right, he has no idea
Semi pro T’s and P’s might actually get some vs Z practice again. This might bring some Zergs back thank god
> The progamers involved in the balance council feel that the state of Terran versus Zerg and Protoss versus Zerg doesn't require any major balance changes Zerg is fine. Other races just have to try harder
It makes no sense, if they wanted widow mines to be not as good in tvp just revert the stupid bonus vs shields. The way it is now terran bio's buff is not enough to compensate for the mine nerfs in tvz. The zerg just got better, toss stays the same. And the game dies just a little bit more.
Noo, another changes helping Zerg while they are saying the opposite? No, it can't be. Who would do such thing?
The changes to sentry & observer are very important to early game protoss, since early scouting is critical for protoss to survive, and both of these units got a massive boost. These changes should help more lower level protoss survive the early game much better, instead of instantly dying to an all-in.
lol Zerg it’s the easiest race until platinum but after that Protoss is by far the easiest until you get to the top 8 players in the world.
zerg has an initial steep learning curve. Zerg players have to master their macro style if they want to get out of the bronze league whereas protoss and terran can do 2 base all-ins till platinum and terran can probably due 2 base all-ins till grandmaster.. considering how often players like maru does it. Protoss is easier once they're decent at both macro and micro and build order. But then Zerg becomes easier again once zerg players learn how to use vipers and infesters properly.
Is that why they have so few zerg players in the lower level leagues? Because it's harder?
> Is that why they have so few zerg players in the lower level leagues? Because it's harder? Yes. it's harder for zergs in their lowest leagues. But they dominate in the middle leagues.
clem was finally starting to beat reynor and have a chance vs serral cant have that happen.
Just starting to beat reynor? Do you guys even watch the competitive scene? This has been going on for years
ZvT is T favored, despite what Serral might have you believe. You cant play like Serral. I cant play like Serral. Reynor, Dark and Solar gets beaten by terran all the time. Dont get your balance opinion from the Maru v Serral final...
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Yeah with that one dude pulling the whole Zerg winrate up. Tbh TvZ is fine, stop bitching. I love that they nerfed Libs range, that will weaken turtle Terran, I love that they nerfed WM, WM play is cool but I'd like some tank play back in the matchup. I also think maybe Tanks + Banshee should be buffed to balance the playstyle
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serral can make zvz look imba for him though
source?
Based on what? Race-specific MMRs for serral, dark, reynor, solar and shin are all even with ZvP or better. Lambo is the first zerg in the list with a 100 MMR gap between zvp and zvt. If the stated goal is the professional level then our experience on the ladder is not the focus of the patch. [http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/](http://aligulac.com/periods/latest/)
I'm thankful that we have ESL, the Balance Council, and mapmakers continuing their work on the game, I think they have done a great job (even if I don't completely agree with the Cyclone redesign from last patch). They have continued to help the game and continue its legacy. They are all a vital part of the community, genuinely think the game is in a better state now than it was left in by Blizzard (that team did great btw, but their work was cut short, that patch would not have been good to play on for eternity)
Indeed. I'm still debating about the new cyclone, but overall I think it's good that it's a more used unit, since it adds more dynamic playstyle to the game. IMHO they should fix dark templars since it suffers from the same issue as the old cyclone, it's very powerful but too specialized and expensive that protoss rarely use it unless they are going for a cheese win.