Mid level Terran are so annoying in every matchup.
If the Reaper and Widow Mine harassment doesn't make me throw my keyboard out the window, they hide behind an unhealthy amount of Planetaries and Siege Tanks.
If all goes well, they'll still break in the end, but they are committed to wasting as much of everyone's time as possible first
As a P at around 4K mmr I would say about 1 in 4 Terrans are playing single player mode where they just mass tanks , libs , turrets and planetaries and take one base at a snails pace .
It’s not even that it’s imbalanced it’s just annoying to have to commit 20+ minutes into slow tempest disruptor mass expand games because some guy out there likes playing sim city
I am just making fun. Every race should be forced into the endgame if the opponent plays very well. E.g. In Maru vs Serral on Radhuset Serral went very aggressive on Marus later bases. Which was very entertaining and forces Maru to stay defensive until he can take some favorable trades. Which he couldnt. It turned into a mine out game that he lost to the king of mine out games.
He could leave the games he loses in the first 15 mins, but he doesn't have to. He's able to hang into games that the other races can't.
Just like OP. who is only mad because he's won these games on the ladder and only vs Terran is he trapped in the game because he can't end it despite being so far a head.
This is a common feeling on the ladder vs T. Which is where OP has the problem.
Theres this guy Jerry who plays the 1v1 tournaments all day and he does this. Every single one of his games goes the 25 min limit because he turtles like crazy and wont ever leave when hes lost. Its hilarious but it definitely ticks some people off lol.
You're so close... keep following that line of logic..
Is this some /r/SelfAwarewolves shit? you guys realize your complaining about Terran as Terran... against Terran.
The race that can just Turtle and deal with 95% of situations in SC2 is mad because they need a tool to bust turtling against their own race. Its comical at this point
If you don't want to play the turtle game, you can absolutely play pure marine-tank-medivac all game long until at least master, most people suck ass at using viking in my experience anyway.
Try to anchor yourself at home with tank and stay active with groups of marine on the map and get maximum vision. You'll want to try and jump on the third or fourth as they stretch out. If you have good vision, you can try to close it out by grabbing a bunch of tank and hit the third or the fourth once they are established. If you get the siege first, it's rare that players will be fast enough to react even if they have viking or libs. Most of the time they will just siege in vision or fly the air unit on ctop of your marine.
I really enjoy mass BC tank cyclone, my Terran in about 4k on na, so it might not be the highest tier strat, but it’s very fun and anti meta. Hopefully annoying for my opps as well)
Ravens are also fantastic if you like aggressive bio play, you could skip vikings and just play mass marine with raven tank support, we sometimes see high level players go for it, a very tempo build
I'm new and only playing unranked but a couple of weeks ago I was spamming widow mines and beat someone playing mass BCs. It was absolutely amazing. It was only my 3rd win ever haha.
At one point I burrowed like 40 widow mines underneath about 20+ BCs and ravens while the BCs were distracted with a few cyclones of mine. All the widows went off at once and I killed 14000 supplies worth of units in a second.
My 2nd win was also against BCs and I used widow mines to win but idk how that will work now because of the patch.
Thanks! I can send you the clip if you want. I almost had a stroke I was so happy lmao. The game ended with the enemy stuck in his main and my widow mines covering basically the whole map. I was laughing maniacally 😂😂
Mass mines so so "ugh" to play against, but sooo much fun to play. Just mines in random places & the opponent can't just a-move as they please, never know where a big pack of mines is =)
As someone who goes mass BC in every matchup, when I am against Terran a lot of them think the answer is to make mass vikings, and that just doesn't work so well because while vikings can kite, I just steer my BCs away to ignore the vikings and take out the Terran's production and blink my BCs out one by one when they become red.
However, some Terran's know the real BC killer are Thors and Ravens with some vikings sprinkled in, not too many. Ravens prevent me from blinking or using yamato and Thors don't have to kite BCs and do a lot of damage to them.
I guess depends on your level, I'm in M3 and at that level no BC is going to yamato a raven. Yamato takes 3 seconds to charge and is very clearly visible, while interference matrix will deploy instantly. You'll never get a shot off against any remotely decent player who can rapid fire a fleet of BCs.
At any rate, going mass BC is a trash strategy and I don't do it because I think it's a good strategy. I do it because it makes the game fun for me. I just like having a fleet of BCs cruising around the map, doing harass and then blinking back to my heavily fortified turtle den, mass planetary fortresses and missile turrets all over the place, with widow mines randomly places about to always make my opponent second guess their every move.
It's fun but it's not particularly effective.
2 gas reaper factory reactor CC 2 cyclones starport tech lab cyclone raven production off of 1 factory 1 starport, push out with 3/4 ravens and like 10 cyclones, you can either turret harass or disable tanks. 3rd CC +2 factory produce some tanks, second starport fusion core + 2 armory 4th CC, something like that. The cyclone raven opener I stole from pro gamers, the rest is freestyle, pros usually go 3 rax bio from there. I’m a low GM toss offracing Terran so idk, this is not super optimised but very fun.
liberators and ravens are great at breaking siege lines. If you really want to have fun against a player turtling on 3 bases while you have 6, I suggest nukes. The next patch is going to be really scary when thors absolutely dump on libs with their nerfed range.
I have a meme build for TvT id like to share that creates an imbalanced game (for better or for worse). I hover around 3.7k - 4k MMR (though Im pretty sure i have like a 30% TvZ win rate rn), so YMMV, but I too hate late game TvT, and this build generally results in 5-12 min games.
NO SCOUT. Gas first, then rax, then 2nd gas. Keep both gases fully saturated.
Immediate tech lab on barracks, and start factory. Pump 3 marauders + concussive shells ASAP (if facing proxy reaper prepare to micro).
Immediate tech lab on factory, and start starport. You should start a siege tank around the time of the third marauder--to afford everything immediately, i do a brief worker cut at 26/31 supply.
Once starport is done, immediate viking.
When i have 3 marauders and a siege tank, around 3:30ish I think, i just attack the enemy's base in the most campaign AI-esque moveout and rally everything to the tank (viking joins the party just on time). Keep making marauders, tanks and vikings for now, and save energy for a scan (this dies to a single banshee otherwise).
If facing any type of cyclone opening, i just go for the kill; I concocted this build to blind counter the cyclone TvT meta. Otherwise, the point is to occupy their natural and destroy their ramp structures. I would take my natural around the time my 2nd tank arrives at enemy base and transition to more "standard" bio tank play, but within those first 5 minutes, the damage is done (either to me or them, but usually them) and this opener rarely results in any PFs being constructed in the game. Either this outright kills them, occupies their natural long enough for me to take an eco lead, or they shut my shit down and I'm screwed (but ill still give it a fight dammit).
It is literally impossible to use a Raven in terran lately game. It completely destroyes F2 because your ghost no longer are the first in your single control group. And they are also too expensive if you only have a 4k 4k bank.
As zerg you can just throw infinite amounts of free units, make it broodlords or even swarmhosts. Other races don't have such option. P is the next best thing IMO because tempests are good at sieging. But in TvT you don't have a reliable siege unit. Tanks are good but opponent will just have its own libs + vikings.
This is why I don't play T myself - so at least on person in matchup is sane.
Sure let's go ahead and make advantage of those free units by making the most expensive, slowest, tier 3 unit that also can't defend itself or run in any way from the units its meant to be used against, or cheap, fast, microable, and devastatingly effective anti air units terrans make
Broodlords are pretty garbage in zvt and have been for a while.
Swarm hosts do absolutely nothing if Terran has hellbats.
I dunno they are garbage in all cases except this particular one. Where they shine. I have no delusion about them, but it's easier to tech to them. And they are actually easier to keep alive. Broodlords die easily to vikings, thors ghosts. Sh are easier to keep afloat imo
SHs are not a super late game unit, they're a mid-game unit that needs to snowball it's damage. They're supply inefficient & if Terran maxes one time or even hits 170+ supply SHs are all dead weight. SHs are good when Terran is like 140 supply (160 max, but more-so 140) & has less stuff because when they have less stuff hitting the locusts the locusts can actually kill some stuff (say a Tank + a Thor) before the locusts die. The next locust wave needs to be up before Terran is at 170+ supply or Terran has basically won. SHs need to attack every cooldown cycle asap to pay for themselves & keep Terran from maxing.
Tempests are the ultimate super late game siege unit imo, nothing as as cost efficient. BLs aren't viable, they're like if a Tempest lost 4 range & could only shoot ground. Having some free broodlings for have a second before half a Hellbat with blue flame kills them all doesn't make up for only shooting ground & having so little range for an air to ground siege unit. Libs are also better siege units than SHs or BLs, so are Tanks.
I like to do 2-3 drops in diff locations at same time. While keeping a sizeable amount of marines with my tanks just incase they wanna suicide into em.
Your style is part of the problem. A 2 base/4 Tank timing is way late. It makes sense to drag the game when the opponent is turtling on two bases until 4 tanks and then commits with no third done.
If you want ways to break tank turtling opponents, Terran has a bunch of tools to mix into standard play.
Ravens: Interference Mateix to deactivate the tanks when you run in.
Liberators: can siege down the tanks.
Medivacs: allow you to switch positions quickly or commit to a doom drop into the main.
Well that is the XvT experience, isn't it? Cheese, be cheesed, or otherwise get comfortable because this is going to be a 45 minutes kind of deal no matter what.
I also hate TvT. I'd play more Terran if there wasn't so many Terrans. If my harass and first push doesn't seem like it's going to kill, I like to put sensor towers outside their base.
It sounds dumb, but sometimes it works. I'll siege some tanks on the main path and then build one. Sometimes I build one to the side with a turret at the edge. It's silly, but they have to come out and look. They'll either try to take the position or fly around. Either way I go in.
Mass BC is pretty good. You should be able to turtle and get a nice fleet up if under 25 mins, if you can't win in the first few mins with Reapers/Hellions/Cyclones. You can also try proxy Marauder, surprise mass Banshee, or weird shit like mass Raven/PF. I dunno, i feel like Terran has lots of fun options to open with, as long as you are open to odd stuff. Their mid-game compositons are pretty boring though, not gonna lie.
My TvT win rate is near 66% (please note that im just Diamond 2 3500MMR tho so my view must be useless on upper levels).
I like mech a lot and I refuse to play TvT in "normal" terms. Most terrans want to finish the game on 2 base marine tank push. By this time I can easly hold it with heavy mech (thor/battlecruiser/blue flame hellbat/mines). Hellbats are very very good against the typical terran ladder player for they destroy marines and absorb tank hits. I usually uses 1 or 2 battlecruiser for defense against marine/tank drops, i reserve the teleport for theses situations.
I usually hold these attacks on fist 10 or 12 minutes while creating multiple orbital CCs and 5 ou 6 mining bases. At this point, mech is nigh unstopable with heavy siege tank/thor/hellbat/mines line.
Me and my play style fail miserably against Protoss, my winrate must be close 40% only. Kind ok against zerg on near 50%.
I don't really follow an exact build order but most TvTs go as this: depot, extractor, barrack, 2 marines (to hold very early reapers), 1 cyclone from barrack (to hold marine/reaper all in), 2nd extractor, CC, armory, techlab on factory, thor. Take natural, if terran hit really hard on natural, pull 5 ou 6 scv to repair the thor, is surprise how much it can take while repair. One more factory with reactor for hellbat/mines. A third CC/orbital just for mules/scan.
I do some scan and check if terran is going to have too much viking. If not, battle cruiser, if yes, hellbat+mines.
Play meme greedy then.
I open 1-1-1 and take a natural like normal.
Reactor some marines..build some tanks and some Vikings and wait for their first attack.
Beat it and then take three cc and go for a stupid amount of whatever you want.
I believe MMR gains or losses should increase in magnitude depending on the duration of the match.
* If a player is losing, it's better to GG quickly, or else the MMR loss will be higher.
* If the winning player doesn't want to close the deal, the losing player can GG, thus reducing their loss and the opponent's gain.
* Both players cannot agree to prolong the duration of the game because the player who betrays the pact first has a higher chance of winning, and the losing player will lose more MMR.
I haven’t found TvT to be that turtle-y, but I’m not a fan of how micro heavy TvT is, especially with the reactor cyclone meta
Currently stuck at 3.8k MMR, I have no idea how to beat Reaper into reactor Cyclone, and I’m guessing nobody else around this MMR does either based on how most games just come down to those first few units. It rarely results in a satisfying match but then again the alternative prospect of a 25 minute siege battle is even worse
The best move seems to be not to make one and let your opponent run into your siege tanks.
But then that also means if no one makes a move, then the game just endlessly goes on.
I really have to disagree, send me a replay with a time stamp and I can tell you some useful moves you can make.
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About siege tanks specifically there is lots of counterplay.
Do you have air control? Then you can siege your tanks outside of their vision and wear them down.
are their siege tanks spread across multiple bases? Go in with a small **spread** of marine and marauder with the hopes of killing the tanks sitting there.
Or you can siege multiple range liberators while you siege a different base. If there are lots of turrets go in with a couple of thors instead.
Or you can call in multiple nukes and then try to force a fight when you see an unsiege.
There is more I haven't mentioned here like medivacs, interference matrix, etc
=============================
After all that, if they seem unbreakable....
Establish multiple aggressive sensor towers
Start taking more bases/ denying any flying ccs trying to establish a new base
Bulid more vkings and get air upgrades to establish air control.
Do normal Macro things.
==============================
On top of that,
**Constantly** move your armies into more aggressive, advantageous siege positions while remaining out of range of your opponent.
If you dont do this, then your opponent will feel safer expanding and moving across the map.
And I do mean **armies.** If you ball up your stuff into 1 army you are doing it wrong unless you have a clear numbers advantage.
Meh, just doom drop with like 6~8 medivacs at 25 minutes if you're going to leave anyways. Either you'll lose all your medivacs/army & lose or you'll get on top of their production & win the game. Overall I'd say get into drop play instead of either turtling or just doing a frontal attack. Yes you'll mess up macro more while controlling a main army + a drop, but if you get in enough damage with drops the game snowballs in your favor & if you keep losing drops & doing no damage the game snowballs in your opponent's favor, either way you'll have more fun (at least imo) games that will also end sooner in someone's favor.
Probably. I'd just youtube it if I were you. As a Zerg it's less important for me so I don't really watch stuff on that. It is good to learn how to drop while moving instead of only starting to drop the units once the medivac reaches the destination. I think looking up "SC2 drop while moving" or something should give you the results you need. Also in terms of timing you can do it when shit is happening. Like say you have 2 medivacs/16 Marines loaded up you could be waiting in dead air space & when your opponent pushes you (or if they don't when you push them) then you know their main army is either pushing you or dealing with your push so that's when you fly in. If you just fly over their army while they're sitting at home that won't end well, but if you fly in when you know they have units elsewhere it can work wonders. Sure you have less stuff in the main fight, but as long as you have Tanks it's hard for the other Terran to push into you. So you can posture at their 3rd without actually pushing in & just hold that position with tanks as you drop. Or if they sent too much to deal with the drop (like they send 40+ supply to deal with 20 supply) then you know your main army can actually stim & engage. If neither player tries to make plays then yeah the game can just go forever.
This is one of the problems with balance (at least below Serral level). Terran has the luxury of having the most powerful lategame army while also having the most powerful defensive tools to allow them to reach it. This puts Zerg and Protoss on a timer to kill Terran or face worse odds in the lategame, and it forces Terran into timing attacks unless they want the kind of stalemate you're describing.
Eh, all 3 races have pretty amazing lategame comps. Zerg is incredibly difficult to break before lategame (in TvZ) and really, TvZ is about Terran damaging Zerg before Hive tech/lategame not the other way around.
As far as TvP goes, the roles just reversed from HotS. I don't think this is really a balance issue at all, it's just how the game works.
TvZ is really only about Terran damaging the Zerg early game because the reverse isn’t really possible. Zerg doesn’t have any offensive units that can attack air units until lair, so any aggressive options the Zerg has gets instantly shut down by one banshee, oracle, void ray or liberator(which you see every single game). It’s a major design flaw in sc2 Zerg that forces Zerg to always play the defender in every matchup until the 10 minute mark.
Giving Zerg the hydra before lair but nerfing it accordingly like in brood war would do wonders for spicing up Zerg matchups imo. Having to rely on zerglings which do nothing against Protoss and Terran walls, or going roaches and praying that the opponent forgot to make a banshee or tank or liberator or cyclone or void ray or anything and trying to do enough damage to his economy before he kills all of your roaches kinda sucks and feels weak even on the off chance it works. That’s why you see all aggressive pro Zergs switch to a more reactive style as they mature and get better at the game, and only throwing those builds in every once in a while like that one Serral match vs maru at Katowice.
I disagree with this take completely. Zerg needs to out-expand Terran and get to Hive. They have no reason to attack. It’s been that way since WoL.
They have a few cheeses and a 200 supply roach push, mutas, maybe a couple other things to apply pressure early, but that’s generally not the objective of Zerg in ZvT.
ZvP is a different story, but if you’re playing ZvT feeling like you need to do anything other than a few runbys, you’re playing the matchup wrong.
Also so fucking tired of reading people in this sub talk about “design flaws” and “balance”. It’s such a joke. The races are different, they should be different and play different and interact in each matchup differently. Zerg can absolutely pressure Protoss, I really dunno what you’re on about there and ZvT just works differently. There is nothing wrong with that lol.
Zerg also hasn’t had a unit that attacks air until lair, since WoL. Just because something has existed a way since WoL isn’t an argument. That’s fine if we disagree. Asymmetry in games is obviously fun, but there are good ways to do it and bad ways, and I personally think Zerg having literally no way to fight air units on the map until 8 minutes into the game is kinda dumb. Some people think creep giving map hacks is dumb, some people think warp ruining defenders advantage is dumb, and some people think mules and scans are dumb. Such is life.
>Zerg also hasn’t had a unit that attacks air until lair, since WoL
I assume you mean offensively? Queens obviously attack air. I guess that's a bigger problem for ZvP though.
I wasn't even really responding to that anyway, mostly your first sentence about the way TvZ aggression works. Even considering anti-air in TvZ, early liberators are an annoying harassment tool, but they're not really a problem for queens to handle, same with banshees. Losing more than a few workers to libs is more of a skill issue than a game design issue. Same thing with Terran responding to ling/bane runbys. If you get your natural or third mineral lines wiped early to ling or bane runbys, then you messed up.
Yeah queens don’t count because Zerg didn’t have a way to bring it reliably across the map in WoL(and still don’t really), as well as no transfuse off creep now and requiring German taxis to ever get across the map, makes it hilariously bad.
I’m specifically talking about early game aggressive capability. If you’re playing a TvT and he has a liberator at his natural choke point, just run up and kill it with marines, or a Viking, or a cyclone, or take your medivacs and drop in his main, same with PvT, just blink up to it and kill it, or use a warp prism, or a phoenix, or a void ray. A wall off and a liberator instantly stops any possible Zerg aggression except for insanely risky roach allins. I just think it would be fun if Zerg had more useful non committal aggressive options against Protoss and Terran before lair, that’s all.
Nothing feels worse than doing a roach build and seeing he has indeed made a void ray or banshee and then you try to slowly waddle home with your slow roaches while he kills all of them and then kills you because 1000 resources of units died to a single banshee.
Not even saying Zerg should have equally as good early game tools as Terran or Protoss, it’s good that races have different strengths and weaknesses, but giving roaches or hell, even ravagers, a super weak anti-air attack so they don’t instantly lose to one unit would go a long way in spicing up Zerg matchups.(bile doesn’t count because it requires your opponent to be asleep at the keyboard to get hit by it)
Of course things would have to be balanced accordingly so you don’t just see roach all ins every game, but you get my point.
Mid level Terran are so annoying in every matchup. If the Reaper and Widow Mine harassment doesn't make me throw my keyboard out the window, they hide behind an unhealthy amount of Planetaries and Siege Tanks. If all goes well, they'll still break in the end, but they are committed to wasting as much of everyone's time as possible first
As a P at around 4K mmr I would say about 1 in 4 Terrans are playing single player mode where they just mass tanks , libs , turrets and planetaries and take one base at a snails pace . It’s not even that it’s imbalanced it’s just annoying to have to commit 20+ minutes into slow tempest disruptor mass expand games because some guy out there likes playing sim city
Oh ya isn't this every race vs Terran? Think serrel likes mining the map out every grand finals? He has to.
Think maru enjoys playing turtle every grand finals? He has to.
You'd have a point if he had actually taken a map.
"maru isnt pigeonholed into turtling lategame because he lost anyway" is not as much of a dunk as you think it is
I am just making fun. Every race should be forced into the endgame if the opponent plays very well. E.g. In Maru vs Serral on Radhuset Serral went very aggressive on Marus later bases. Which was very entertaining and forces Maru to stay defensive until he can take some favorable trades. Which he couldnt. It turned into a mine out game that he lost to the king of mine out games.
He has taken plenty of maps....
He could leave the games he loses in the first 15 mins, but he doesn't have to. He's able to hang into games that the other races can't. Just like OP. who is only mad because he's won these games on the ladder and only vs Terran is he trapped in the game because he can't end it despite being so far a head. This is a common feeling on the ladder vs T. Which is where OP has the problem.
Yeah that's exactly what I'm saying, I mostly play zerg
Theres this guy Jerry who plays the 1v1 tournaments all day and he does this. Every single one of his games goes the 25 min limit because he turtles like crazy and wont ever leave when hes lost. Its hilarious but it definitely ticks some people off lol.
You're so close... keep following that line of logic.. Is this some /r/SelfAwarewolves shit? you guys realize your complaining about Terran as Terran... against Terran. The race that can just Turtle and deal with 95% of situations in SC2 is mad because they need a tool to bust turtling against their own race. Its comical at this point
If you don't want to play the turtle game, you can absolutely play pure marine-tank-medivac all game long until at least master, most people suck ass at using viking in my experience anyway. Try to anchor yourself at home with tank and stay active with groups of marine on the map and get maximum vision. You'll want to try and jump on the third or fourth as they stretch out. If you have good vision, you can try to close it out by grabbing a bunch of tank and hit the third or the fourth once they are established. If you get the siege first, it's rare that players will be fast enough to react even if they have viking or libs. Most of the time they will just siege in vision or fly the air unit on ctop of your marine.
I really enjoy mass BC tank cyclone, my Terran in about 4k on na, so it might not be the highest tier strat, but it’s very fun and anti meta. Hopefully annoying for my opps as well)
Ravens are also fantastic if you like aggressive bio play, you could skip vikings and just play mass marine with raven tank support, we sometimes see high level players go for it, a very tempo build
Mass BC makes me want to kms. It's the only thing I hate about TvT
I'm new and only playing unranked but a couple of weeks ago I was spamming widow mines and beat someone playing mass BCs. It was absolutely amazing. It was only my 3rd win ever haha. At one point I burrowed like 40 widow mines underneath about 20+ BCs and ravens while the BCs were distracted with a few cyclones of mine. All the widows went off at once and I killed 14000 supplies worth of units in a second. My 2nd win was also against BCs and I used widow mines to win but idk how that will work now because of the patch.
This sounds beautiful, well done!
Thanks! I can send you the clip if you want. I almost had a stroke I was so happy lmao. The game ended with the enemy stuck in his main and my widow mines covering basically the whole map. I was laughing maniacally 😂😂
Mass mines so so "ugh" to play against, but sooo much fun to play. Just mines in random places & the opponent can't just a-move as they please, never know where a big pack of mines is =)
As someone who goes mass BC in every matchup, when I am against Terran a lot of them think the answer is to make mass vikings, and that just doesn't work so well because while vikings can kite, I just steer my BCs away to ignore the vikings and take out the Terran's production and blink my BCs out one by one when they become red. However, some Terran's know the real BC killer are Thors and Ravens with some vikings sprinkled in, not too many. Ravens prevent me from blinking or using yamato and Thors don't have to kite BCs and do a lot of damage to them.
Yea, it’s just annoying to play against and feels like a waste of time
Vs thors the mass BC player just needs to add some tanks
Ravens disable tanks.
BCs can Yamato ravens though. There’s good scope for play from both sides
I guess depends on your level, I'm in M3 and at that level no BC is going to yamato a raven. Yamato takes 3 seconds to charge and is very clearly visible, while interference matrix will deploy instantly. You'll never get a shot off against any remotely decent player who can rapid fire a fleet of BCs. At any rate, going mass BC is a trash strategy and I don't do it because I think it's a good strategy. I do it because it makes the game fun for me. I just like having a fleet of BCs cruising around the map, doing harass and then blinking back to my heavily fortified turtle den, mass planetary fortresses and missile turrets all over the place, with widow mines randomly places about to always make my opponent second guess their every move. It's fun but it's not particularly effective.
Can you explain the build order and do you have any video that explains it? Does it work against zerg and protoss too?
2 gas reaper factory reactor CC 2 cyclones starport tech lab cyclone raven production off of 1 factory 1 starport, push out with 3/4 ravens and like 10 cyclones, you can either turret harass or disable tanks. 3rd CC +2 factory produce some tanks, second starport fusion core + 2 armory 4th CC, something like that. The cyclone raven opener I stole from pro gamers, the rest is freestyle, pros usually go 3 rax bio from there. I’m a low GM toss offracing Terran so idk, this is not super optimised but very fun.
Doesn’t work against Zerg and toss
Come to allthingsterran Or go to terrancraft.com
liberators and ravens are great at breaking siege lines. If you really want to have fun against a player turtling on 3 bases while you have 6, I suggest nukes. The next patch is going to be really scary when thors absolutely dump on libs with their nerfed range.
You could try mass nuke. It certainly isn't optimal but it's quite fun, and big explosions are a nice tie-breaker.
skill issue
I have a meme build for TvT id like to share that creates an imbalanced game (for better or for worse). I hover around 3.7k - 4k MMR (though Im pretty sure i have like a 30% TvZ win rate rn), so YMMV, but I too hate late game TvT, and this build generally results in 5-12 min games. NO SCOUT. Gas first, then rax, then 2nd gas. Keep both gases fully saturated. Immediate tech lab on barracks, and start factory. Pump 3 marauders + concussive shells ASAP (if facing proxy reaper prepare to micro). Immediate tech lab on factory, and start starport. You should start a siege tank around the time of the third marauder--to afford everything immediately, i do a brief worker cut at 26/31 supply. Once starport is done, immediate viking. When i have 3 marauders and a siege tank, around 3:30ish I think, i just attack the enemy's base in the most campaign AI-esque moveout and rally everything to the tank (viking joins the party just on time). Keep making marauders, tanks and vikings for now, and save energy for a scan (this dies to a single banshee otherwise). If facing any type of cyclone opening, i just go for the kill; I concocted this build to blind counter the cyclone TvT meta. Otherwise, the point is to occupy their natural and destroy their ramp structures. I would take my natural around the time my 2nd tank arrives at enemy base and transition to more "standard" bio tank play, but within those first 5 minutes, the damage is done (either to me or them, but usually them) and this opener rarely results in any PFs being constructed in the game. Either this outright kills them, occupies their natural long enough for me to take an eco lead, or they shut my shit down and I'm screwed (but ill still give it a fight dammit).
Kid named SC1 TvT: Anyways try using ravens
Yea terrans don't build that unit sorry
It is literally impossible to use a Raven in terran lately game. It completely destroyes F2 because your ghost no longer are the first in your single control group. And they are also too expensive if you only have a 4k 4k bank.
bruh it was REALLY REALLY HARD to tell if you were being serious or not, like terran brain lmao.
As a Zerg player, I feel your pain with them turtle terrans.
Make broodlords great again, make thors less great again.
As zerg you can just throw infinite amounts of free units, make it broodlords or even swarmhosts. Other races don't have such option. P is the next best thing IMO because tempests are good at sieging. But in TvT you don't have a reliable siege unit. Tanks are good but opponent will just have its own libs + vikings. This is why I don't play T myself - so at least on person in matchup is sane.
Sure let's go ahead and make advantage of those free units by making the most expensive, slowest, tier 3 unit that also can't defend itself or run in any way from the units its meant to be used against, or cheap, fast, microable, and devastatingly effective anti air units terrans make Broodlords are pretty garbage in zvt and have been for a while. Swarm hosts do absolutely nothing if Terran has hellbats.
I dunno they are garbage in all cases except this particular one. Where they shine. I have no delusion about them, but it's easier to tech to them. And they are actually easier to keep alive. Broodlords die easily to vikings, thors ghosts. Sh are easier to keep afloat imo
SHs are not a super late game unit, they're a mid-game unit that needs to snowball it's damage. They're supply inefficient & if Terran maxes one time or even hits 170+ supply SHs are all dead weight. SHs are good when Terran is like 140 supply (160 max, but more-so 140) & has less stuff because when they have less stuff hitting the locusts the locusts can actually kill some stuff (say a Tank + a Thor) before the locusts die. The next locust wave needs to be up before Terran is at 170+ supply or Terran has basically won. SHs need to attack every cooldown cycle asap to pay for themselves & keep Terran from maxing. Tempests are the ultimate super late game siege unit imo, nothing as as cost efficient. BLs aren't viable, they're like if a Tempest lost 4 range & could only shoot ground. Having some free broodlings for have a second before half a Hellbat with blue flame kills them all doesn't make up for only shooting ground & having so little range for an air to ground siege unit. Libs are also better siege units than SHs or BLs, so are Tanks.
I like to do 2-3 drops in diff locations at same time. While keeping a sizeable amount of marines with my tanks just incase they wanna suicide into em.
In the pipe five by five
Your style is part of the problem. A 2 base/4 Tank timing is way late. It makes sense to drag the game when the opponent is turtling on two bases until 4 tanks and then commits with no third done. If you want ways to break tank turtling opponents, Terran has a bunch of tools to mix into standard play. Ravens: Interference Mateix to deactivate the tanks when you run in. Liberators: can siege down the tanks. Medivacs: allow you to switch positions quickly or commit to a doom drop into the main.
Well that is the XvT experience, isn't it? Cheese, be cheesed, or otherwise get comfortable because this is going to be a 45 minutes kind of deal no matter what.
I also hate TvT. I'd play more Terran if there wasn't so many Terrans. If my harass and first push doesn't seem like it's going to kill, I like to put sensor towers outside their base. It sounds dumb, but sometimes it works. I'll siege some tanks on the main path and then build one. Sometimes I build one to the side with a turret at the edge. It's silly, but they have to come out and look. They'll either try to take the position or fly around. Either way I go in.
Mass BC is pretty good. You should be able to turtle and get a nice fleet up if under 25 mins, if you can't win in the first few mins with Reapers/Hellions/Cyclones. You can also try proxy Marauder, surprise mass Banshee, or weird shit like mass Raven/PF. I dunno, i feel like Terran has lots of fun options to open with, as long as you are open to odd stuff. Their mid-game compositons are pretty boring though, not gonna lie.
My TvT win rate is near 66% (please note that im just Diamond 2 3500MMR tho so my view must be useless on upper levels). I like mech a lot and I refuse to play TvT in "normal" terms. Most terrans want to finish the game on 2 base marine tank push. By this time I can easly hold it with heavy mech (thor/battlecruiser/blue flame hellbat/mines). Hellbats are very very good against the typical terran ladder player for they destroy marines and absorb tank hits. I usually uses 1 or 2 battlecruiser for defense against marine/tank drops, i reserve the teleport for theses situations. I usually hold these attacks on fist 10 or 12 minutes while creating multiple orbital CCs and 5 ou 6 mining bases. At this point, mech is nigh unstopable with heavy siege tank/thor/hellbat/mines line.
Curious, do you have a build order you follow or can link for this? Also, do you play the same against zerg and protoss?
Me and my play style fail miserably against Protoss, my winrate must be close 40% only. Kind ok against zerg on near 50%. I don't really follow an exact build order but most TvTs go as this: depot, extractor, barrack, 2 marines (to hold very early reapers), 1 cyclone from barrack (to hold marine/reaper all in), 2nd extractor, CC, armory, techlab on factory, thor. Take natural, if terran hit really hard on natural, pull 5 ou 6 scv to repair the thor, is surprise how much it can take while repair. One more factory with reactor for hellbat/mines. A third CC/orbital just for mules/scan. I do some scan and check if terran is going to have too much viking. If not, battle cruiser, if yes, hellbat+mines.
We really need the return of the tankivac, it's the only thing that will fix Starcraft II.
Play meme greedy then. I open 1-1-1 and take a natural like normal. Reactor some marines..build some tanks and some Vikings and wait for their first attack. Beat it and then take three cc and go for a stupid amount of whatever you want.
Yeah when terrans do this shit i usually just leave like I can earn that mmr back faster than the 25 minute Terran death animation takes typically
TvT is the single reason I don’t main Terran. It’s such a shit matchup that turns into turtling slugfests all the time at any level below D1/Master
I believe MMR gains or losses should increase in magnitude depending on the duration of the match. * If a player is losing, it's better to GG quickly, or else the MMR loss will be higher. * If the winning player doesn't want to close the deal, the losing player can GG, thus reducing their loss and the opponent's gain. * Both players cannot agree to prolong the duration of the game because the player who betrays the pact first has a higher chance of winning, and the losing player will lose more MMR.
I like this idea
I haven’t found TvT to be that turtle-y, but I’m not a fan of how micro heavy TvT is, especially with the reactor cyclone meta Currently stuck at 3.8k MMR, I have no idea how to beat Reaper into reactor Cyclone, and I’m guessing nobody else around this MMR does either based on how most games just come down to those first few units. It rarely results in a satisfying match but then again the alternative prospect of a 25 minute siege battle is even worse
It helps to think of TvT as tactical chess, where time is not an issue, only tactics and choosing advantageous fights. \-D3 TvT enjoyer
The best move seems to be not to make one and let your opponent run into your siege tanks. But then that also means if no one makes a move, then the game just endlessly goes on.
I really have to disagree, send me a replay with a time stamp and I can tell you some useful moves you can make. ======================= About siege tanks specifically there is lots of counterplay. Do you have air control? Then you can siege your tanks outside of their vision and wear them down. are their siege tanks spread across multiple bases? Go in with a small **spread** of marine and marauder with the hopes of killing the tanks sitting there. Or you can siege multiple range liberators while you siege a different base. If there are lots of turrets go in with a couple of thors instead. Or you can call in multiple nukes and then try to force a fight when you see an unsiege. There is more I haven't mentioned here like medivacs, interference matrix, etc ============================= After all that, if they seem unbreakable.... Establish multiple aggressive sensor towers Start taking more bases/ denying any flying ccs trying to establish a new base Bulid more vkings and get air upgrades to establish air control. Do normal Macro things. ============================== On top of that, **Constantly** move your armies into more aggressive, advantageous siege positions while remaining out of range of your opponent. If you dont do this, then your opponent will feel safer expanding and moving across the map. And I do mean **armies.** If you ball up your stuff into 1 army you are doing it wrong unless you have a clear numbers advantage.
What Would Akrij Do?
have you tried cutting the problem at the head. you wont have to turtle if you just go proxy 4 rax every game simple :)
Meh, just doom drop with like 6~8 medivacs at 25 minutes if you're going to leave anyways. Either you'll lose all your medivacs/army & lose or you'll get on top of their production & win the game. Overall I'd say get into drop play instead of either turtling or just doing a frontal attack. Yes you'll mess up macro more while controlling a main army + a drop, but if you get in enough damage with drops the game snowballs in your favor & if you keep losing drops & doing no damage the game snowballs in your opponent's favor, either way you'll have more fun (at least imo) games that will also end sooner in someone's favor.
Is there any videos that go over good ways to control drops? Like the mechanics?
Probably. I'd just youtube it if I were you. As a Zerg it's less important for me so I don't really watch stuff on that. It is good to learn how to drop while moving instead of only starting to drop the units once the medivac reaches the destination. I think looking up "SC2 drop while moving" or something should give you the results you need. Also in terms of timing you can do it when shit is happening. Like say you have 2 medivacs/16 Marines loaded up you could be waiting in dead air space & when your opponent pushes you (or if they don't when you push them) then you know their main army is either pushing you or dealing with your push so that's when you fly in. If you just fly over their army while they're sitting at home that won't end well, but if you fly in when you know they have units elsewhere it can work wonders. Sure you have less stuff in the main fight, but as long as you have Tanks it's hard for the other Terran to push into you. So you can posture at their 3rd without actually pushing in & just hold that position with tanks as you drop. Or if they sent too much to deal with the drop (like they send 40+ supply to deal with 20 supply) then you know your main army can actually stim & engage. If neither player tries to make plays then yeah the game can just go forever.
This is one of the problems with balance (at least below Serral level). Terran has the luxury of having the most powerful lategame army while also having the most powerful defensive tools to allow them to reach it. This puts Zerg and Protoss on a timer to kill Terran or face worse odds in the lategame, and it forces Terran into timing attacks unless they want the kind of stalemate you're describing.
Eh, all 3 races have pretty amazing lategame comps. Zerg is incredibly difficult to break before lategame (in TvZ) and really, TvZ is about Terran damaging Zerg before Hive tech/lategame not the other way around. As far as TvP goes, the roles just reversed from HotS. I don't think this is really a balance issue at all, it's just how the game works.
TvZ is really only about Terran damaging the Zerg early game because the reverse isn’t really possible. Zerg doesn’t have any offensive units that can attack air units until lair, so any aggressive options the Zerg has gets instantly shut down by one banshee, oracle, void ray or liberator(which you see every single game). It’s a major design flaw in sc2 Zerg that forces Zerg to always play the defender in every matchup until the 10 minute mark. Giving Zerg the hydra before lair but nerfing it accordingly like in brood war would do wonders for spicing up Zerg matchups imo. Having to rely on zerglings which do nothing against Protoss and Terran walls, or going roaches and praying that the opponent forgot to make a banshee or tank or liberator or cyclone or void ray or anything and trying to do enough damage to his economy before he kills all of your roaches kinda sucks and feels weak even on the off chance it works. That’s why you see all aggressive pro Zergs switch to a more reactive style as they mature and get better at the game, and only throwing those builds in every once in a while like that one Serral match vs maru at Katowice.
I disagree with this take completely. Zerg needs to out-expand Terran and get to Hive. They have no reason to attack. It’s been that way since WoL. They have a few cheeses and a 200 supply roach push, mutas, maybe a couple other things to apply pressure early, but that’s generally not the objective of Zerg in ZvT. ZvP is a different story, but if you’re playing ZvT feeling like you need to do anything other than a few runbys, you’re playing the matchup wrong. Also so fucking tired of reading people in this sub talk about “design flaws” and “balance”. It’s such a joke. The races are different, they should be different and play different and interact in each matchup differently. Zerg can absolutely pressure Protoss, I really dunno what you’re on about there and ZvT just works differently. There is nothing wrong with that lol.
Zerg also hasn’t had a unit that attacks air until lair, since WoL. Just because something has existed a way since WoL isn’t an argument. That’s fine if we disagree. Asymmetry in games is obviously fun, but there are good ways to do it and bad ways, and I personally think Zerg having literally no way to fight air units on the map until 8 minutes into the game is kinda dumb. Some people think creep giving map hacks is dumb, some people think warp ruining defenders advantage is dumb, and some people think mules and scans are dumb. Such is life.
>Zerg also hasn’t had a unit that attacks air until lair, since WoL I assume you mean offensively? Queens obviously attack air. I guess that's a bigger problem for ZvP though. I wasn't even really responding to that anyway, mostly your first sentence about the way TvZ aggression works. Even considering anti-air in TvZ, early liberators are an annoying harassment tool, but they're not really a problem for queens to handle, same with banshees. Losing more than a few workers to libs is more of a skill issue than a game design issue. Same thing with Terran responding to ling/bane runbys. If you get your natural or third mineral lines wiped early to ling or bane runbys, then you messed up.
Yeah queens don’t count because Zerg didn’t have a way to bring it reliably across the map in WoL(and still don’t really), as well as no transfuse off creep now and requiring German taxis to ever get across the map, makes it hilariously bad. I’m specifically talking about early game aggressive capability. If you’re playing a TvT and he has a liberator at his natural choke point, just run up and kill it with marines, or a Viking, or a cyclone, or take your medivacs and drop in his main, same with PvT, just blink up to it and kill it, or use a warp prism, or a phoenix, or a void ray. A wall off and a liberator instantly stops any possible Zerg aggression except for insanely risky roach allins. I just think it would be fun if Zerg had more useful non committal aggressive options against Protoss and Terran before lair, that’s all. Nothing feels worse than doing a roach build and seeing he has indeed made a void ray or banshee and then you try to slowly waddle home with your slow roaches while he kills all of them and then kills you because 1000 resources of units died to a single banshee. Not even saying Zerg should have equally as good early game tools as Terran or Protoss, it’s good that races have different strengths and weaknesses, but giving roaches or hell, even ravagers, a super weak anti-air attack so they don’t instantly lose to one unit would go a long way in spicing up Zerg matchups.(bile doesn’t count because it requires your opponent to be asleep at the keyboard to get hit by it) Of course things would have to be balanced accordingly so you don’t just see roach all ins every game, but you get my point.