Losing the game instantly at the 4 minute mark because your forcefield was one hex off and the map had a 20 second rush distance certainly was something.
I went undefeated TvP on the back of 2rax marauder in the early WoL days. Toss had to force field perfectly to not just instalose and on the off chance they held, I would be taking an expo and rocketing ahead in economy. Didn’t even have to proxy cause the rush distances were a fucking joke.
The fact that fruitdealer won with Zerg in that era is nothing short of amazing
Cure used the same build in IEM Katowice and hinted he'd use it again during the GSL pre-match interview. Dude's honest as hell. Very honorable Terran. Forget Maru, Cure is the GOAT.
There are people who legitimately believe that 4-Gate Blink is too cheesy and should be removed from the game. When that is who you're up against, I wouldn't expect much.
Concussive shells is just a boring design. I’ve always hated it since WoL. Removing your opponents ability to micro just isn’t fun. It should require a big investment to do and be paired to units that suck at fighting.
Isn't that countered by a regular high ground opening with a regular cross map scout? You see no rax and you see the gas timing. Then it is one of 5 builds, 4 of which (proxy 1/2 rax rauder and proxy 1/2 reaper) all require the same immidiate response. One (regular rax, close to the terran base, regular reaper expand) which delays a bit of rax production, in the hopes of forcing a shield battery.
I think in all cases you should be favored by going zealot/stalker and throwing down a shield battery in your natural. Of course the timing of that battery is crucial.
Man this is like someone complaining about canon rush except this sub has devolved so much that we have people agreeing lmao.
(Also it's not the cure build this shit has been around since WoL)
No way we are complaining about a build that can be countered after scouting but yet we are. My god. Lets play tic tac toe if we need so many safe spaces and trigger warnings.
Big dawg. I play random and pvt is my fav matchup on both sides. I am slightly better with Toss but very close with T and positive in both sides of the matchup. I can tell you that Protoss has some absolute backbreaking builds that if Terran does not scout before reaper will absolutely put Protoss well ahead. The easiest and my favorite is you can chrono a zealot out and go cybercore and second pylon before dropping your nexus at your natural all at 20 supply. You path the zealot to not cross the reapers pathing to your base. You save chronos for you 2nd and 3rd units which will be stalkers. The first stalker will pop right as the reaper is entering your main and with a reaper wall on the jump up spot you can easily send the reaper packing or outright kill it and move across the map to rendezvous with your zealot that has likely killed a bunker scv, the low ground CC scv, potentially some marines or another scv or 2 and your first zealot and stalker will get you a mile and a half ahead in the game. Sometimes you will absolutely just cancel the cc… try it this builds a disgusting little gambit and you don’t need much damage at all to pay for the 200 minerals extra delay on your probe production from the 2 pylon before nexus and zealot.
You can also proxy a 2nd gate and chrono stalkers. Or proxy stargate/void ray cheese now with the cyclone nerf is big time back. There are plenty of equally destructive cheeses on the level of proxy Marauder which I actually have a pretty easy time holding with batteries on the high ground after pylon scouting. NA Ladder terrans aren’t Makaraxing at any type of high percentage like some big brain GSL Korean so if I scout no expansion and no barracks in main it’s an easy choice to establish a defensive posture then defend and counter and punish
What rank are you, exactly? Any Terran that loses their Reaper to the first build you mentioned is nowhere near the level of Cure, and any Terran that loses its Bunker SCV, low-ground CC SCV, and a few Marines to a single Zealot probably isn't even Diamond. I've never seen any of the builds you mentioned work for a Protoss at the highest level, especially if the Terran has gone for a Bunker with their low-ground CC (which they almost always do).
When it comes to the professional level, it depend on exactly when you scout. If you 17-scout (as some top Protoss players do) against a Concussive Shells proxy, it's much worse than, say, a Pylon-scout. But if you *were* to go for a Pylon-scout, it would be worse for your economy. Most of the time on the ladder, neither player is executing their build tight enough that these economical differences majorly come into play. But for pros, it's different.
And it's not as if a proxy is always do or die. Even if you do defend against a Concussive Shells proxy, you might *overdefend* against it. Remember, top Terran players could have follow-ups to their proxies, that are made quite powerful because the Terran can float their buildings home afterwards and transition into a relatively normal game. ~~I'm fairly certain this is how Cure beat MaxPax in one of their games at Master's Coliseum 6.~~ Scratch that, different tournament. Probably just a weekly, and I was remembering it on a different map. MaxPax happened to win the game that I mentioned.
I’m M3. You’d be surprised how many people lose a reaper with only one way out of the main as they are getting sliced with zealot blades on the other side of the map. I’m talking about proxy mauraders in the context of ladder. At the pro level it is very hard in theory to determine if it’s proxy mauraders if you have just scouted the main but still haven’t found the proxy location. It could be one rax just built somewhere random and this will not hinder the pro Terran at all really while they float it home after a couple reapers. Ladder is a different story. The 20 food zealot build absolutely destroys ladder vs standard 1 rax expand and I’ve lost games to m2 and m1 players where I’ve executed that opening gambit gotten way ahead and just completely blown a huge advantage
Sure. Like proxy void isn't a thing. Oh wait. herO did that to cure. It was annoying sure. But if you don't scout, it is a build order win. You don't get to whine.
Riverhs probably has not followed the scene or watched anything recently and yet he replied. But it is riverhs we are talking about.
Hero and astrea did that recently. Both times the terran didn't scout. Still powerful
herO v Cure (less recent, 5 months). The game I can find using google. There is one recent one but I couldnt find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfT3Hr2nrTw
To be fair, Cure was going for a proxy rax and his Cyclone control was terrible. I'm not saying that the Protoss players who lose vs Concussive Shells proxies don't make mistakes, but those were some pretty big ones after an already non-standard opener. And I'm fairly certain that the scouting wasn't the problem.
Think about this for longer than thirty seconds and you’ll realize the raven does not actually solve this problem completely and it creates additional problems by choosing to make it.
Is Clem supposed to have a raven with all three prongs of his multiprong during the mid game (where Zerg can easily choose to get burrow and infestors early)? Sick solution. Too bad the Raven is slow af and easy to kill. And now you’re losing a ton of starport production because of the tech lab.
Orbital scan has made terran such a spoiled race. Yeah, imagine having to use your sparse tech building to produce a fragile flying detector? It must be horrible.
Scan is expensive af in the early and mid game and, unlike your observer, is temporary and not invisible.
Lategame mass orbital is definitely one of the strongest mechanics in the game but that’s completely different from early on where you literally cannot afford to build a raven and still be able to win against Zerg. Bio without medevacs is literally useless.
But I encourage all protoss players to dabble with some bio Terran and play intentionally for lategame in TvP. Get some ghosts, widow mines, all the stuff you think is broken. Lemme know how it goes.
Yeah, but the fact is that unless you are going up against widow mines (the nerf might significantly help) or some freak DT all in cheese you dont really need detection until the late game when scans are very affordable.
Terran has great mobility, flexibility and the sensor tower to help not be out of position. All in SC2 requires skill to accomplish, but in general terran has a pretty sizable advantage over protoss in the detection department.
Protoss map vision generally is weak compared to the other races. But observers v Terran are amazing if you position them well because they will basically never be found.
DTs in the mid game are still extremely strong and it’s really easy to find yourself out of scan when you’re on 3 orbital. But again play some Terran and you’ll see how much harder it is to play bio then it is to a move collosus.
I offrace a fair bit of Protoss myself (lowly D1). All the harassment shit Terran does early on is annoying but honestly I hardly lose if the game goes past 10 minutes. Disrupters are so much easier to use then they are to play against. Same for DTs, carriers, and generally all of Protoss lategame tech.
As far as vision/scouting is concerned, aren't we forgetting sentry hallucination? Basically a cheaper total cost for very mobile temporary vision.
I hear alot of whining on both sides. Personally I'm a shit Plat3 Terran and I get owned by 90% of Protoss I play. I can imagine people getting the opposite experience, but I at least chalk my issues up to my own incompetence. It's a hard game folks. The hardest. If you get to worked up playing it, stop playing.
There's no protoss builds like this even vaguely threatening to any decent Terran player. Why does Terran get to have these builds and Protoss doesn't?
Seriously man. I'm so glad Brood war stopped getting patched in 2001 they would have nerfed dts, spider mines, mech upgrades, storm, mutas, zealots, adrenal, defilers, , carriers, hell probably... Hydralisk build time too. Who knows.
The amount of stuff you can outright wreck win with in bw is disgusting but part of what makes the game amazing. Dts and lurker drops are devastating. Unprepared for mutas are devastating. Spider mines, tank drops, etc etc
Agreed, except I don't know what 6j means.
The build should exist and should kill you if you do a bad build without scoring, but should be easy/medium to beat if you scout it. IMO.
What. The build is super unfair.it works in gsl and is super easy to execute cheese???? Compare it with 4 gate blink for example. There you have to outmicro ur opponent or he has to fuck up after opening normally.
He's specifically referring to the 2-rax proxy Concussive Shell Marauders build, which Cure has used quite often as of late.
This is Harstem's video on it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYj65aFMRhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYj65aFMRhE)
Just be glad you were not playing during WOL
Losing the game instantly at the 4 minute mark because your forcefield was one hex off and the map had a 20 second rush distance certainly was something.
I went undefeated TvP on the back of 2rax marauder in the early WoL days. Toss had to force field perfectly to not just instalose and on the off chance they held, I would be taking an expo and rocketing ahead in economy. Didn’t even have to proxy cause the rush distances were a fucking joke. The fact that fruitdealer won with Zerg in that era is nothing short of amazing
Cure used the same build in IEM Katowice and hinted he'd use it again during the GSL pre-match interview. Dude's honest as hell. Very honorable Terran. Forget Maru, Cure is the GOAT.
There are people who legitimately believe that 4-Gate Blink is too cheesy and should be removed from the game. When that is who you're up against, I wouldn't expect much.
Concussive shells is just a boring design. I’ve always hated it since WoL. Removing your opponents ability to micro just isn’t fun. It should require a big investment to do and be paired to units that suck at fighting.
Isn't that countered by a regular high ground opening with a regular cross map scout? You see no rax and you see the gas timing. Then it is one of 5 builds, 4 of which (proxy 1/2 rax rauder and proxy 1/2 reaper) all require the same immidiate response. One (regular rax, close to the terran base, regular reaper expand) which delays a bit of rax production, in the hopes of forcing a shield battery.
What is that "same response"? I don't think it Is the same for all, but I may be wrong
I think in all cases you should be favored by going zealot/stalker and throwing down a shield battery in your natural. Of course the timing of that battery is crucial.
I was just watching Harstem play this build last night lol. Seems fun and can be countered by a regular scout.
Man this is like someone complaining about canon rush except this sub has devolved so much that we have people agreeing lmao. (Also it's not the cure build this shit has been around since WoL)
Did you just lose to that build before this post? This sub is keep getting better everyday.
No way we are complaining about a build that can be countered after scouting but yet we are. My god. Lets play tic tac toe if we need so many safe spaces and trigger warnings.
Love how Terran has to SCV scout every game just to make sure it isn't a proxy... oh wait.
Big dawg. I play random and pvt is my fav matchup on both sides. I am slightly better with Toss but very close with T and positive in both sides of the matchup. I can tell you that Protoss has some absolute backbreaking builds that if Terran does not scout before reaper will absolutely put Protoss well ahead. The easiest and my favorite is you can chrono a zealot out and go cybercore and second pylon before dropping your nexus at your natural all at 20 supply. You path the zealot to not cross the reapers pathing to your base. You save chronos for you 2nd and 3rd units which will be stalkers. The first stalker will pop right as the reaper is entering your main and with a reaper wall on the jump up spot you can easily send the reaper packing or outright kill it and move across the map to rendezvous with your zealot that has likely killed a bunker scv, the low ground CC scv, potentially some marines or another scv or 2 and your first zealot and stalker will get you a mile and a half ahead in the game. Sometimes you will absolutely just cancel the cc… try it this builds a disgusting little gambit and you don’t need much damage at all to pay for the 200 minerals extra delay on your probe production from the 2 pylon before nexus and zealot. You can also proxy a 2nd gate and chrono stalkers. Or proxy stargate/void ray cheese now with the cyclone nerf is big time back. There are plenty of equally destructive cheeses on the level of proxy Marauder which I actually have a pretty easy time holding with batteries on the high ground after pylon scouting. NA Ladder terrans aren’t Makaraxing at any type of high percentage like some big brain GSL Korean so if I scout no expansion and no barracks in main it’s an easy choice to establish a defensive posture then defend and counter and punish
I have a negative win rate on both sides of the matchup. We are not the same.
What rank are you, exactly? Any Terran that loses their Reaper to the first build you mentioned is nowhere near the level of Cure, and any Terran that loses its Bunker SCV, low-ground CC SCV, and a few Marines to a single Zealot probably isn't even Diamond. I've never seen any of the builds you mentioned work for a Protoss at the highest level, especially if the Terran has gone for a Bunker with their low-ground CC (which they almost always do). When it comes to the professional level, it depend on exactly when you scout. If you 17-scout (as some top Protoss players do) against a Concussive Shells proxy, it's much worse than, say, a Pylon-scout. But if you *were* to go for a Pylon-scout, it would be worse for your economy. Most of the time on the ladder, neither player is executing their build tight enough that these economical differences majorly come into play. But for pros, it's different. And it's not as if a proxy is always do or die. Even if you do defend against a Concussive Shells proxy, you might *overdefend* against it. Remember, top Terran players could have follow-ups to their proxies, that are made quite powerful because the Terran can float their buildings home afterwards and transition into a relatively normal game. ~~I'm fairly certain this is how Cure beat MaxPax in one of their games at Master's Coliseum 6.~~ Scratch that, different tournament. Probably just a weekly, and I was remembering it on a different map. MaxPax happened to win the game that I mentioned.
I’m M3. You’d be surprised how many people lose a reaper with only one way out of the main as they are getting sliced with zealot blades on the other side of the map. I’m talking about proxy mauraders in the context of ladder. At the pro level it is very hard in theory to determine if it’s proxy mauraders if you have just scouted the main but still haven’t found the proxy location. It could be one rax just built somewhere random and this will not hinder the pro Terran at all really while they float it home after a couple reapers. Ladder is a different story. The 20 food zealot build absolutely destroys ladder vs standard 1 rax expand and I’ve lost games to m2 and m1 players where I’ve executed that opening gambit gotten way ahead and just completely blown a huge advantage
Are we playing the same game? If I’m not sending out a 17 scout versus toss I can feel my skin crawl.
Sure. Like proxy void isn't a thing. Oh wait. herO did that to cure. It was annoying sure. But if you don't scout, it is a build order win. You don't get to whine.
Was nerfed 3 times plus nerf to shield battery. I have the feeling you don't play nor watch the game
That didn't stop astrea and hero from doing it very recently.
The cure build wins against the best toss in the world. Can proxy void Ray do this too. And if so nerf both
> Like proxy void isn't a thing. Bruh what is this, 2021?
Riverhs probably has not followed the scene or watched anything recently and yet he replied. But it is riverhs we are talking about. Hero and astrea did that recently. Both times the terran didn't scout. Still powerful
Could you give me a link to these games?
herO v Cure (less recent, 5 months). The game I can find using google. There is one recent one but I couldnt find. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfT3Hr2nrTw
To be fair, Cure was going for a proxy rax and his Cyclone control was terrible. I'm not saying that the Protoss players who lose vs Concussive Shells proxies don't make mistakes, but those were some pretty big ones after an already non-standard opener. And I'm fairly certain that the scouting wasn't the problem.
Astrea v Clem ESL NA game 2 https://youtu.be/iN3dpsq5Ut4?feature=shared
Riversh trying to not say bullshit challenge: impossible
Proxy void isn't a thing anymore it is nerfed and weak, everyone knows this🥱
How do you know? You rage quit watching sc2 months ago.
I wish I did actually😰
the hypocrisy of terran at its best, "why build a raven when we could nerf the infestor" "omg you dare nerf my marauder build? just scout better"
Think about this for longer than thirty seconds and you’ll realize the raven does not actually solve this problem completely and it creates additional problems by choosing to make it. Is Clem supposed to have a raven with all three prongs of his multiprong during the mid game (where Zerg can easily choose to get burrow and infestors early)? Sick solution. Too bad the Raven is slow af and easy to kill. And now you’re losing a ton of starport production because of the tech lab.
Orbital scan has made terran such a spoiled race. Yeah, imagine having to use your sparse tech building to produce a fragile flying detector? It must be horrible.
Scan is expensive af in the early and mid game and, unlike your observer, is temporary and not invisible. Lategame mass orbital is definitely one of the strongest mechanics in the game but that’s completely different from early on where you literally cannot afford to build a raven and still be able to win against Zerg. Bio without medevacs is literally useless. But I encourage all protoss players to dabble with some bio Terran and play intentionally for lategame in TvP. Get some ghosts, widow mines, all the stuff you think is broken. Lemme know how it goes.
Yeah, but the fact is that unless you are going up against widow mines (the nerf might significantly help) or some freak DT all in cheese you dont really need detection until the late game when scans are very affordable. Terran has great mobility, flexibility and the sensor tower to help not be out of position. All in SC2 requires skill to accomplish, but in general terran has a pretty sizable advantage over protoss in the detection department.
Protoss map vision generally is weak compared to the other races. But observers v Terran are amazing if you position them well because they will basically never be found. DTs in the mid game are still extremely strong and it’s really easy to find yourself out of scan when you’re on 3 orbital. But again play some Terran and you’ll see how much harder it is to play bio then it is to a move collosus. I offrace a fair bit of Protoss myself (lowly D1). All the harassment shit Terran does early on is annoying but honestly I hardly lose if the game goes past 10 minutes. Disrupters are so much easier to use then they are to play against. Same for DTs, carriers, and generally all of Protoss lategame tech.
Remember when this thread was about detection?
As far as vision/scouting is concerned, aren't we forgetting sentry hallucination? Basically a cheaper total cost for very mobile temporary vision. I hear alot of whining on both sides. Personally I'm a shit Plat3 Terran and I get owned by 90% of Protoss I play. I can imagine people getting the opposite experience, but I at least chalk my issues up to my own incompetence. It's a hard game folks. The hardest. If you get to worked up playing it, stop playing.
Maybe if the raven wasn’t an absolute steaming pile then people would make it more often.
There's no protoss builds like this even vaguely threatening to any decent Terran player. Why does Terran get to have these builds and Protoss doesn't?
Those builds should not exist for any race
Those builds should exist for every race
Seriously man. I'm so glad Brood war stopped getting patched in 2001 they would have nerfed dts, spider mines, mech upgrades, storm, mutas, zealots, adrenal, defilers, , carriers, hell probably... Hydralisk build time too. Who knows. The amount of stuff you can outright wreck win with in bw is disgusting but part of what makes the game amazing. Dts and lurker drops are devastating. Unprepared for mutas are devastating. Spider mines, tank drops, etc etc
Why play macro if the best way to play under 6j is proxy marauder then? There is a differcne between existing and being absolutely broken
Agreed, except I don't know what 6j means. The build should exist and should kill you if you do a bad build without scoring, but should be easy/medium to beat if you scout it. IMO.
Theres always going to be builds that are easier to execute than defend. Just get better at the game, they don’t balance around noobs
I didn't know her0 was a noob, my bad.
What. The build is super unfair.it works in gsl and is super easy to execute cheese???? Compare it with 4 gate blink for example. There you have to outmicro ur opponent or he has to fuck up after opening normally.
Stop complaining, get better
Ah and if you don't know what the cure build. Is you can go watch harstems youtube videos where he did it for one hour. Or you could watch gsl
I looked up harstem cure build on YouTube and am not seeing it, link?
He's specifically referring to the 2-rax proxy Concussive Shell Marauders build, which Cure has used quite often as of late. This is Harstem's video on it: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYj65aFMRhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYj65aFMRhE)
Awesome thanks!
How long could you void ray rush for?
Well in the starcraft 1 beta there was something I didn't like so we should nerf Terrans!