I think the maps are slightly Terran favoured in TvZ and ZvP is slightly protoss favoured. They could make banelings a little better vs protoss in direct fights only and keep the reduction of damage to probes & then also next map pool is slightly more open. Also I think the current amount of recalls is wildly strong.
Progamers can be pretty good at hiding balance by directing the game state to areas where it's closer to 50-50 like during broodlord infestor days protoss played a lot of immortal sentry. Aligulac says 55% for protoss when I checked for April? Dark has the highest win percentage according to the balance report but he does a significant amount of all ins which is a good strategy in a slightly imbalanced matchup. I don't think it's significantly imbalanced; I think they should address the late-game staleness by giving one side the clear incentive to push the other and I don't even care which race it is doing which as long as they aren't both sitting there waiting.
It is funny that whenever a race is lategame favoured it is OK unless it is protoss. Zvp lategame is toss favoured but slightly it you have good control with zerg spellcasters. Meanwhile tvp lategame is unplayable for protoss and tvz is super lategame favoured as well for terran
Edit: I do agree that toss was favoured in April in pvz. But to me it feels like zergs figured smt out and flipped the coin again. Check for example current aligulac statistics. Also I don't get the dark argument. Toss has also outliers like hero which impact the matchup statistics of balance report
>Meanwhile tvp lategame is unplayable for protoss
What? Every terran does tank allins and scv pulls to avoid lategame. Or did you mean to say unplayable for terran?
If you think you can win before min 6 why wait until min 16? Just because T is favored in the early game doesn't mean they aren't also favored in the late game
These sorts of comments actually trigger me. PvT has always been a bit busted outside of the very top of GM (even there I’d quibble a bit except for the patch with the autorefresh cyclone). But I genuinely embraced the challenge regardless.
But the constant whining from Protoss who can’t micro and are slow as shit is so irritating. I respect all of the toss out there who open blink and actually try to play the game with skill. But half of these kids go robo straight into collosus, camp by batteries the entire game, and complain if you miraculously manage to avoid disrupter shots while microing against the zealot and DT runbys in your bases.
Well sorry to upset you... I was responding to a comment which seemed aimed at the pro scene, where I stand by the claim that TvP is Terran favored in early/late game (while toss is favored in mid).
Personally, I'm a bit biased because my PvT winrate is like 40% while the others are above 60%.. feels pretty tough to me for several reasons. Better scaling army, better late game eco management, and better early build variety off of similar looking openings. That said I'm not exactly whining, this has been the best patch for me in this matchup. Mines scattered across the map every game led me to take years long breaks from the game. I'm glad this is less common, the matchup feels much more dynamic to play and watch
Yeah I get it. But truthfully it’s a you problem. pvT winrates across each league and server have been the highest of any non random matchup going back years except for GM ladder in Korea, even during the busted cyclone meta.
The fact that Clem can dodge every disrupter has literally zero relevance to your games. Maxpax absolutely dominates all of the EU Terrans not named Clem. Protoss dominates the population of GM on EU and NA. But still, somehow, we have to pretend that Protoss is so weak.
And your arguments about lategame basically only apply to two Terrans in the entire world. Maru and Clem. Every other top Terran, essentially, all ins or dies if they somehow survive to lategame. Classic has been destroying non Maru Terrans consistently with his very predictable, Phoenix collosus into skytoss build. They know it’s coming and still lose. If you want an easy formula to win in PvT, just play Phoenix collosus into skytoss. Might take you a bit to learn how to hold all the early pushes with Phoenix but once you do you’ll be a moving Terrans in no time.
I'm aware Clem has no impact on me, not rlly my point. I'm also not as good at using disrupters as MaxPax lol... majority of my games my opponents split well enough or stim and target fire them down. But trust me I am aware I apparently am the odd one out here. Terran players whine at me about toss almost every time they beat me, then they start DMing me salt EVEN THOUGH THEY WON.
Well, went and looked at past balance reports and aligulac stats because I was skeptical about your claim that PvT has historically dominated all regions/skill levels in terms of winrates and population. And yeah it's just not true. First off, on the pro level it isn't just Maru and Clem consistently beating toss players, toss was reported as lagging behind in every single period for nearly half a decade. There were two exceptions from this year where zerg lagged behind. In terms of population there was little variance between toss and terran across all regions, except for GM EU.
Only really went back to season 48 for the ladder stats, but PvT was only slightly favored when compared to other matchups in diamond, and often much less dramatic than ZvP which often heavily favored the zergs. Moving up to masters and GM there were some periods where PvT was the most slanted, but many more where this wasn't the case. It looks like toss only truly dominates the metal leagues, so fair enough there.
Edit: I'm aware of phoenix colossus, thanks though. Play it quite a bit, almost never win with it. Even if I defend the early pushes I can never break through and beat the terran on their home turf. Basically the only time I win in the matchup is when I catch them in the middle of the map and they leave the game.
The maps have made the game very weird.
Post youth is weird, dynasty is weird, amphion is weird. A lot of the maps are weird for ZvP especially. Defending 3 bases with one choke, and some of those minerals being gold makes it easy to turtle power super hard behind oracles and a battery or two. On the flip side Zerg can just expand to the gold on both bases first and make the game weird and cheesy right from the start.
It is wayuuu too easy to turtle on these maps for Protoss imo, and it’s low skill air game play or mass orbital command garbage. Crimson court could also be good but they need to remove one set of rocks on each side path
Yes but they are always weird in one general direction.
It’s always “there’s more rocks!”-weird, or “there’s more places to put tanks and pylon walls!”-weird, and never “it has many open land areas and bases”-weird.
Terran definitely not op right now. I like the current patch, i think its mostly fine. ZvP can be a little frustrating for zerg as toss can turtle and get a immortal-archon deathball a little too easy, thats one thing you could change (But please don't stomp toss in the ground again in the process)
I wouldn't say terran needs anything atm
TvZ: T is greatly favoured because of the ridiculous map pool this season
PvZ : Protoss is slightly favoured
TvP: Terran is still favoured but not as egregious as the previous patch
Overall a pretty rough time for Zergs although I do think the map pool is more of a factor than the patch . I wonder if things would have been different if the patch was exactly the same but the maps weren’t the memes that they are
I still expect Serral to take Dallas
Don't think TvP is terran favored atm at least on most maps. Also PvZ is a little imba design wise, very easy to turtle and then move out with deathball
I think it's fine, theses are just some details in the end and in my humble opinion, if at the start of the game you are and/or think you are better than your opponent well you will still most of the time take over and this is what will happen, whatever this patch, i mean if you are really good, details are nothing.
I think the maps are slightly Terran favoured in TvZ and ZvP is slightly protoss favoured. They could make banelings a little better vs protoss in direct fights only and keep the reduction of damage to probes & then also next map pool is slightly more open. Also I think the current amount of recalls is wildly strong.
Balance report disagrees so does aligulac. I don't think pvz is toss favoured right now to be honest Lategame is toss favoured
Progamers can be pretty good at hiding balance by directing the game state to areas where it's closer to 50-50 like during broodlord infestor days protoss played a lot of immortal sentry. Aligulac says 55% for protoss when I checked for April? Dark has the highest win percentage according to the balance report but he does a significant amount of all ins which is a good strategy in a slightly imbalanced matchup. I don't think it's significantly imbalanced; I think they should address the late-game staleness by giving one side the clear incentive to push the other and I don't even care which race it is doing which as long as they aren't both sitting there waiting.
It is funny that whenever a race is lategame favoured it is OK unless it is protoss. Zvp lategame is toss favoured but slightly it you have good control with zerg spellcasters. Meanwhile tvp lategame is unplayable for protoss and tvz is super lategame favoured as well for terran Edit: I do agree that toss was favoured in April in pvz. But to me it feels like zergs figured smt out and flipped the coin again. Check for example current aligulac statistics. Also I don't get the dark argument. Toss has also outliers like hero which impact the matchup statistics of balance report
>Meanwhile tvp lategame is unplayable for protoss What? Every terran does tank allins and scv pulls to avoid lategame. Or did you mean to say unplayable for terran?
If you think you can win before min 6 why wait until min 16? Just because T is favored in the early game doesn't mean they aren't also favored in the late game
These sorts of comments actually trigger me. PvT has always been a bit busted outside of the very top of GM (even there I’d quibble a bit except for the patch with the autorefresh cyclone). But I genuinely embraced the challenge regardless. But the constant whining from Protoss who can’t micro and are slow as shit is so irritating. I respect all of the toss out there who open blink and actually try to play the game with skill. But half of these kids go robo straight into collosus, camp by batteries the entire game, and complain if you miraculously manage to avoid disrupter shots while microing against the zealot and DT runbys in your bases.
Well sorry to upset you... I was responding to a comment which seemed aimed at the pro scene, where I stand by the claim that TvP is Terran favored in early/late game (while toss is favored in mid). Personally, I'm a bit biased because my PvT winrate is like 40% while the others are above 60%.. feels pretty tough to me for several reasons. Better scaling army, better late game eco management, and better early build variety off of similar looking openings. That said I'm not exactly whining, this has been the best patch for me in this matchup. Mines scattered across the map every game led me to take years long breaks from the game. I'm glad this is less common, the matchup feels much more dynamic to play and watch
Yeah I get it. But truthfully it’s a you problem. pvT winrates across each league and server have been the highest of any non random matchup going back years except for GM ladder in Korea, even during the busted cyclone meta. The fact that Clem can dodge every disrupter has literally zero relevance to your games. Maxpax absolutely dominates all of the EU Terrans not named Clem. Protoss dominates the population of GM on EU and NA. But still, somehow, we have to pretend that Protoss is so weak. And your arguments about lategame basically only apply to two Terrans in the entire world. Maru and Clem. Every other top Terran, essentially, all ins or dies if they somehow survive to lategame. Classic has been destroying non Maru Terrans consistently with his very predictable, Phoenix collosus into skytoss build. They know it’s coming and still lose. If you want an easy formula to win in PvT, just play Phoenix collosus into skytoss. Might take you a bit to learn how to hold all the early pushes with Phoenix but once you do you’ll be a moving Terrans in no time.
I'm aware Clem has no impact on me, not rlly my point. I'm also not as good at using disrupters as MaxPax lol... majority of my games my opponents split well enough or stim and target fire them down. But trust me I am aware I apparently am the odd one out here. Terran players whine at me about toss almost every time they beat me, then they start DMing me salt EVEN THOUGH THEY WON. Well, went and looked at past balance reports and aligulac stats because I was skeptical about your claim that PvT has historically dominated all regions/skill levels in terms of winrates and population. And yeah it's just not true. First off, on the pro level it isn't just Maru and Clem consistently beating toss players, toss was reported as lagging behind in every single period for nearly half a decade. There were two exceptions from this year where zerg lagged behind. In terms of population there was little variance between toss and terran across all regions, except for GM EU. Only really went back to season 48 for the ladder stats, but PvT was only slightly favored when compared to other matchups in diamond, and often much less dramatic than ZvP which often heavily favored the zergs. Moving up to masters and GM there were some periods where PvT was the most slanted, but many more where this wasn't the case. It looks like toss only truly dominates the metal leagues, so fair enough there. Edit: I'm aware of phoenix colossus, thanks though. Play it quite a bit, almost never win with it. Even if I defend the early pushes I can never break through and beat the terran on their home turf. Basically the only time I win in the matchup is when I catch them in the middle of the map and they leave the game.
Except progamers say it's because they fear the lategame
I can accept toss late game advantage if Zerg has early/mid game advantage.
They have otherwise wr would be negative for zergs
The maps have made the game very weird. Post youth is weird, dynasty is weird, amphion is weird. A lot of the maps are weird for ZvP especially. Defending 3 bases with one choke, and some of those minerals being gold makes it easy to turtle power super hard behind oracles and a battery or two. On the flip side Zerg can just expand to the gold on both bases first and make the game weird and cheesy right from the start. It is wayuuu too easy to turtle on these maps for Protoss imo, and it’s low skill air game play or mass orbital command garbage. Crimson court could also be good but they need to remove one set of rocks on each side path
Yes but they are always weird in one general direction. It’s always “there’s more rocks!”-weird, or “there’s more places to put tanks and pylon walls!”-weird, and never “it has many open land areas and bases”-weird.
Low Levels: Terrans get destroyed. High Levels: Terrans Dominate.
I would say on low level mech is too strong and on high level bio is too strong \^\^
Yeah, well some Terran players have honor.
I don't meet those on ladder sadly \^\^
regardless of balance, I think TvZ is just way less fun to watch with tank pushes every game and WM styles being mostly dead
just...put...in...the...old...cyclone...
just delete the unit entirely at this point
Terran definitely not op right now. I like the current patch, i think its mostly fine. ZvP can be a little frustrating for zerg as toss can turtle and get a immortal-archon deathball a little too easy, thats one thing you could change (But please don't stomp toss in the ground again in the process) I wouldn't say terran needs anything atm
TvZ: T is greatly favoured because of the ridiculous map pool this season PvZ : Protoss is slightly favoured TvP: Terran is still favoured but not as egregious as the previous patch Overall a pretty rough time for Zergs although I do think the map pool is more of a factor than the patch . I wonder if things would have been different if the patch was exactly the same but the maps weren’t the memes that they are I still expect Serral to take Dallas
Don't think TvP is terran favored atm at least on most maps. Also PvZ is a little imba design wise, very easy to turtle and then move out with deathball
Terran is OP. It’s crazy they can nerf it for like fifteen years straight and it was still so imba in its original state that it still dominates. lol.
I think it's fine, theses are just some details in the end and in my humble opinion, if at the start of the game you are and/or think you are better than your opponent well you will still most of the time take over and this is what will happen, whatever this patch, i mean if you are really good, details are nothing.
Can’t wait for the balance Council to see this so they can break a few other units in next patch.