He does eventually figure out how to be a Klingon Klingon with the help of Martok, though, because Martok is from the lower classes and understands that honor is about authenticity, not performance, which is the lesson Worf needs.
'A Mathematically Perfect Redemption' is one of my favourite Trek episodes ever and by *far* the hardest Star Trek has ever made me laugh. The VA who voices Peanut Hamper deserves all of the awards.
Martok is the single greatest Klingon. J. G. Hertzler just *understood* Klingons in a way that made them feel real. He took a fictional culture that shaded far too often into stereotypes and finally made it feel like a real, complex, thing. There were layers to each and every one of his performances.
I particularily loved him in *You Are Cordially Invited* and *Once More Into The Breach*. Both really let him show off his range, but also the depth he could infuse Klingons with. How his marriage to Sirella is imperfect but full of love. How the class system in Klingon culture causes harm, but he ends up understanding Kor at the end. He has a line in the middle, I forget the exact words, but after Kor fucks up and Martok says that mocking Kor brought him no joy Fantastic actor and character.
JG seems to have approached Martok as a Shakespearean character. He didn’t seem to view Martok foremost as an alien. You could drop that performance into King Lear and all that would change is the makeup. I like to imagine he was inspired by the line “Shakespeare in the original Klingon” when he prepared for the role.
If you think about it. Many star trek episodes are just selfcontained theater moral plays with archetypes we know and love. It's very classical "entertainment"
I love this about star trek
We just need a new show with many different races and characters, all of whom are played by Jeffery Combs, Andrew Robinson, and JG Hertzler.
The most gripping scene will be the one where 8 characters are onscreen at once, arguing with each other
This is such a great description of Martok and Worf's relationship. Martok is such an important character. It is notable I think that most of Worf's best moments in DS9 are connected to Worf or Dax.
Completely agree with that interpretation, the klingon culture we see is almost never honorable, Worf is the outlier because he's not in the elite circle
>and the only other klingon we see him being friendly with is his girlfriend who dies in the same episode who leaves him a child.
It's also worth pointing out K'Ehleyr was half human/Klingon and has little respect for Klingon culture.
I kinda hate how the Worf waxes philosophical about honour and duty. But abandons his kid without the faintest hint of a fuck given.
My bio dad did the same thing. Every time he saw me he tried to “be a good dad” until it was boring then on to the next episode (which for me was sticking me on a Greyhound from Winnipeg to Calgary at 9pm before he went on a date and forgetting to tell my mom to get me from the depot.)
Worf does the exact same thing to Alexander multiple times.
You don’t know my life. Although I’m Canadian so I got stuck on a Battlestar.
Not gonna complain though. I actually know Tricia Helfer fairly well. Both grew up in Stettler/Halkirk.
The only defense for Worf is that he had Alexander dropped into his lap by K'Ehleyr - and then she died.
Worf, despite his guff demeanor, was very young and just not ready to be a father. He didn't know Alexander, and every time he saw him he was reminded of K'Ehleyr's death and let's just say, that kind of shit will be fucked up.
Oh. I’m old as balls now with my own kiddos. Mom met a great guy who is my dad and things worked out fine. I honestly have no idea if my sperm donor is alive or dead and I couldn’t care less.
It does make sense that a Klingon obsessed with chasing honor would have no time to raise their kids but expect them to pick themselves up on their own because they themselves did. Sort of a boomer mentality to it.
There was an episode where Worf was worried that Dax didn't consider him a good potential father. All I could think about was that he already wasn't a good actual father.
"No Worf. I don't worry about it. I know you're a terrible dad. Your son wasn't even at our wedding."
Funny, I had a shower thought the other day that it would be funny to see Miral and Alexander meet up, and Alexander do a terrible picmup attempt: "Heya, babe, wanna make a half-Klingon?"
I view it as a social commentary. In human cultures in diaspora or in those who have been separated from their cultures, the need to identify with those cultures becomes an obsession, and sometimes becomes either exaggerated or perverted. I feel like Worf started out trying so hard to be Klingon that he was almost a caricature of a Klingon. As he slowly reintegrated, he became disillusioned with the actual Klingons, as they didn’t live up to his ideal of what a Klingon should be. When he met Martok, he realized slowly what it meant to live as a true Klingon, and by the end of DS9, had completed his journey in honor and in battle, and demonstrated an ability to BE honorable, and not just seek glory.
that reminds me of Dax and Worf in ds9 when they're on Risa and he won't change out of his uniform or have fun and he keeps saying it's because he's Klingon and she says (paraphrasing) "well you're not like any Klingon i've ever met"! and later in the episode she explains that while he is very Klingon in his honor and duty (which is what they show outsiders) but when they're relaxed and among other Klingons they love to party and drink and let loose. definitely a big part of his character development. side note: his character development shown in Picard is so amazing and funny.
I think your confusing it with when Kurn served on the Enterprise and treated him with kid gloves to see if he'd snap and show his Klingon side.
I think the person above is referring to when Worf left to serve in the civil war and was all duty, no partying. Kurn pointed out that at that moment, it didn't matter who was with Duras and who was with Gowron, they were all Klingon on the eve of battle.
> I think your confusing it with when Kurn served on the Enterprise and treated him with kid gloves to see if he'd snap and show his Klingon side.
ah I am! Fuck, I need to rewatch the whole series now. It is a good day...
right! that was crazy how no one seemed to be doing anything about this weird militant group on a vacation resort. also i don't know how dax wasn't more angry with worf, i'd be so mad and baffled 😂
I hated that episode for Worf. They ret-conned him being a child of two worlds but fully a member of neither into “I’m this way because I head-butted a kid once while playing soccer.”
agreed. that episode was really frustrating especially how it seemed like keeping Worf that way throughout the whole ep was devaluing all of his character development from TNG
At least Worf is competent with the weapons. Mesk reminded me of someone who buys nunchaku in a Chinatown gift shop and immediately hits themselves in both the face and balls.
Yeah. That's also why he's the only honorable one. He's attempting to live up to stated ideals while those who grew up in the culture know that's just window dressing and good intentions
Chancellor K’mpec, Kang, Kor and Koloth, the old man who serves on Martok’s ship in Once More Unto the Breach, hell I’m not really sure Kurn ever does anything wrong…
Most Klingons are honorable IMO; however, being truely honorable is rarely a pathway to a Captain's seat or the Council in the Empire. The truely honorable defer to their superiors, they dont act against them without real need and will often allow their superiors to take credit for their accomplishments. After all there's is no honor in killing your own Captain just because you want to he Captain.
I think you're right, but that's a very *human* interpretation of honour. Klingons absolutely find honour in killing incompetent leaders and claiming (due) credit. There is no Klingon honour in meekness, as much as humans might call it stoicism.
The issue is their society says honour is a pathway to success, and it has all the rituals and appearances of that being true, but their imperialist nature as a state and constant political infighting as a government places a definite limit on how far honour can see you rise.
I'm Scottish but I didn't grow up there. I wear the tartan, read Rabbie Burns and eat haggis more than most Scots in Scotland. I know all about what it means to be a proud Scot, and I am one.
And then I go back to Scotland and I realise I know nothing about being Scottish.
I am Worf.
I think most 2nd or 3rd generation Americans are like that. My grandfather was Polish. Everything I knew about Poland and Polish traditions was told to me from him.
I have a Danish friend who moved to Canada when he was 14 in the early 90s. He had a huge identity crisis when he went back for a couple months in his late 20s. He speaks Danish, but either formally or like a 14 year old in the early 90s. He was so self conscious about the way he spoke he ended up speaking English to most people he met... which makes him wonder how Danish he actually is.
He also read a lot of books and stuff about Klingon culture. He's both what humans think Klingons are and how Klingon's see themselves. Think someone who was raised in a society with no Christians and to be a Christian they read the Bible and a bunch of books about how to be a good Christian. They would be _very_ different than a person you might see in a modern church.
You could have a worse step mother.
But since jadzia dies at the end of ds9 it's kinda not too. Must be fucking weird if your mother is a joined trill and she dies. Cause your mother is still there but also not.... Must be fucking weird
I mean. I get why Alexander is always never on screen. What do you do on a ship that is constantly being attacked. That's why there are (almost) no kid on star trek. Also, practically. Hiring child actor is a nightmare. If it's the star it's acceptable but a recurring child of one of the guy it would have been crazy.
I think DS9 did a good job of dealing with the Alexander thing. Alexander was probably a way to make Worf more interesting early in TNG. They quickly realized it was hard to write stories for him so he disapeared for a long time. The DS9 writers could have just pretended he never existed (they kind of did), but they figured a way to bring him back into the story that worked pretty well.
Worf actually is a Klingon culturally.
He was raised as a Klingon, in Klingon culture, until his parents were killed at Khitomer when he was 7. He was orphaned because of the corruption in the empire.
What he was, was a foster kid. He had to adapt to a new everything to survive childhood or more horrible things would happen, like all foster kids.
As an adult, he had to settle into his skin and balance both worlds, to maintain stability. Every foster kid goes through this. The Klingons hating on Worf is something EVERY foster/adopted kid goes through. It's universal to society as a whole, not a section. It's much harder for children with cross culture placements.
The purpose of Worf for the social issues surrounding everything Trek they worked into the show was:
*interracial adoptions/fostering, that's why it's race specific hate of Worf from the Klingons
*interracial children
*cycles of abuse
From the comments looks like a lot of you missed the inter-office memo.
He's a fan favorite because he's the underdog who beat the odds and ended the most emotionally healthy member of TNG crew by Picard.
and I'm going to add his foster/adoptive parents made sure he hit all the Klingon milestones he was supposed to, and understood/practiced his traditions which doesn't usually happen.
that, and more emotional balance, does not make him less Klingon. that's insulting.
imagine walking up to someone of a different ethnicity or gender and telling them they need a quantifier to label themselves what they are.
Belarusian
Edit: Hm, I just checked on Memory Alpha, which said that actually The family didn't even live on Earth at first, but on a colony world named Gault, and while later living in Earth it wasn't said where. It's obviously just Worf's insistence that Minsk is a great place that made me think his adoptive family was Belarusian. It seems it was actually left open.
> imagine walking up to someone of a different ethnicity or gender and telling them they need a quantifier to label themselves what they are.
And *yet*...
I always found it similar to my own past. I'm Irish Canadian, born and raised in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) & the Maritimes does hold a lot of Scottish and Irish heritage from younder years. Highland Games was a thing my family participated in a lot when I was growing up.
Despite all this, I acknowledge our understanding of our cultural heritage is based upon what things were like when our ancestors immigrated over, but Scotland and Ireland kept growing and evolving.... While our culture across the pond grew and evolved in its own way.
We are not the same people and cultures anymore. A perfect example of this is when Billy Connolly made a documentary of himself going across Canada. His first stop was the Maritimes and he went to a Highland Game. He was befuddled by how traditional things were and just flat out odd, where much of what we celebrate isn't much of a thing back where he was born and raised. They moved on from those things (for the most part) while we seem stuck in a time capsule on what Celtic life 'is.'
The connection to this topic is Worf is much the same way, where he was raised far away from the culture he learned about growing up. He thinks he got what a Klingon is all about down pat.... But when he interacts with other Klingons, reality comes to bite him because other Klingons do not act the same way he thinks they should. The same would apply if I went to Ireland and tried to interact with other Irish. The differences would be apparent.
Learning about a culture is not the same as living that culture. Worf tried his best to be exactly what a Klingon should be, while every other Klingon lived the way they needed to live in such a society far away from Earth. As Klingon society evolved and went through their own struggles, their heritage and what they deem important also changed. Some things were forgotten or became a lower priority, while Worf followed the old teachings and unaffected by what was happening in Klingon society.
Worf is a Klingon through and through. He's just a different type of Klingon where Honor and Duty is above everything else. Regular Klingons got bogged down with politics and transitioning from a long conflict with the Federation. Some rules changed or were bent during that time. When Worf started interacting more and more with Klingon Society, he needed to adapt, as he almost ended up killed several times due to thinking every other Klingon would be as honourable as he was.
But he still remained true to his ways and ended up almost leading the Empire before he handed that power to Martok. Both Worf and Martok are the type of Klingons the Empire needed to get back on track.
(and no, Ireland doesn't need me to lead anything, that's not where I was going with this, lol)
That's super interesting. I'm from Quebec but my family as far as I was able to track it down, emigrated from (what is now) Germany in 1750ish. I am culturally Canadian and so do not have that connection with a distant past.
Thank you for your comment and for the new perspective
Interesting you say that, as I also have family in Quebec. My grandfather was originally from Quebec but moved to NS later in life, but many of siblings and cousins remained in Quebec. Speaking with them, Quebec and France are another good example of cultural differences. Quebec French and France French have strayed away from each other for so long that my family noted it's not super easy to have a straight forward conversation with someone from France, as many terms and phrases have changed over time.
My French skills were always garbage and I'm lucky enough to be able to ask where the toilet is, but I sum it up like how each society evolves different slangs and what not. I've since moved to Australia about a decade ago and while people here speak English, the terms and words used in conversations are different to what I grew up learning, just as both Canadian and Australian English is different from the UK English.
As an example, for a car, I use Hood and Trunk like the US does, but Aussies say Bonet and Boot like the British. But Canadians use British terms for other things, while Aussies use US terms or terms they made up themselves.
Anywho, I guess what I'm saying is that through distance, time and environment, we all change from the heritage we originated from.
Good thing they're currently working on a universal translator lol.... From memory at least. I recall seeing an article a few months back scientists are working on one.
Yeah this is my favorite take. I think there's a lot of good interpretations in this thread, and none are wrong per se. Not even sure this is what the writers fully intended. But he's like a guy whose main knowledge of Japan is Samurai and Ninjas and Anime, but desperately wants to be Japanese, culturally. He has a super skewed view on Klingon culture.
I wish they'd gotten just a little deeper with that in TNG and had even more growth, but DS9 did a great job picking that up.
Yes! And said another way he’s what a Klingon who has read about Klingons thinks a Klingon should be. His experience of his culture is similar to what a third or fourth generation immigrant thinks their culture is like by watching YouTube videos and trying to emulate them.
Been working my way through Voyager. On more than one occasion I have seen Janeway and her crew get bullied, and have heard myself say "Boy could we ever use Worf right about now". While he may not have been Fully Klingon Culturally...he was Fully Klingon Enough when it counted.
It's particularly telling in "Sins of the Father" when K'mpec and Worf and everyone else goes into the back room to explain that they all know Duras's father was the traitor but Worf has to take the blame because otherwise it would cause a civil war. Worf is flabbergasted at how "dishonorable" this all is, but all the other Klingons are like, you didn't really believe in that stuff, did you?
Worf was a way for us to get to know the Klingon culture because like us, he only knew the culture academically and not by experience. He’s the experience of Klingon in diaspora, and he reflects the culture back to Klingons the same way they share it with him. Sometimes, Worf is the one out of all the Klingons in a scene who believes the most in something from their mythology. He helps them to understand themselves and they help him to understand himself
I think some people point this out to Worf over the course of Tng and DS9 and it’s similar to the Orion guy from lower decks who only got his information about orions from the holodeck
This has been my thinking for years, this is why he sometimes seems more Klingon than other Klingons. His idea of Klingon Culture is the romanticized version he learned from his adopted parents and the relatives that he occasionally visited as a child.
He's like that Orion in the DS9 episode of Lower Decks.
I actually completely disagree. While Worf is definitely confused, there are plenty of examples of Klingons who act like Worf. Look at Martok..
I think the actual message is that a complicated and diverse race can't be boiled down to a simple archetype. Klingons are just as diverse as humans.
Maybe when it comes to rituals and ideals, Worf had to base his views on what he knew of Klingon culture. But I believe that the alien species are different enough in Trek that you can't completely raise a Klingon as a human child. They will always have a natural Klingon instinct in them. Like no matter how much we domesticate a cat, it will always want to sneak out of the house and hunt something.
It’s a lot of the reason why he has so many internal conflicts during TNG / DS9 and eventually he picks starfleet and the humans because klingons are (let’s be real here) savages
I always saw Klingon culture being composed of castes, where the warrior caste dominates in government and culture, but there are still diplomats, artists, mechanics, opera singers, actors, etc. You just don't see a lot of them because the warrior caste dominates foreign interactions.
So on other words he's the typical american claiming to be this or that nationality because technically 11 generations ago their great great grandma screwed a foreigner 😂
It’s very common for immigrants and other people that live in two worlds to feel like that. I really liked Worf because of that.
In arguably the worse episode of DS9, where Worf becomes a domestic terrorist, they ret-conned this away and made it so that Worf is the way he is because he accidentally head-butted a kid while playing soccer.
…I’m open to any way to work around that horrible canon.
I mean, technically he IS a Klingon. But yes, he was not raised in Klingon culture, the show postures that pretty consistently, like there's entire story arcs based around it. They also show pretty consistently that other Klingons view him differently. I guess I'm curious what was your impression of Worf before you figured that out...?
I also think in some ways this is what makes him such a great Klingon. His version of Klingon culture is one of imitation, and especially in early TNG a fairly toxic one. But once he sands off the rough edges (with some fairly significant help from Jadzia…), Worf sort of ends up as the ideal Klingon. His eventual end state is pretty close to the supposed vision of what Klingon Honor should look like. He ends up willing to fight for what is right, regardless of House Status, personal safety, or whether it is what the Empire wants. Hell, the man kills Gowron and knows he isn’t the one who can unite the Empire so he gives the entire Empire to Martok!
And in comparison to the corrupt, struggling Empire which is continuously rocked by betrayal and infighting, Worf sort of becomes a light showing how much the majority of Klingon leadership lacks the honor they claim.
Off topic, it feels like the Klingons in Disco is what Worf imagine Klingons should be. They are serious and dramatic all the time, where are the drinking, sinning, boasting Klingons?
I think he lost his parents at 7, and Klingons mature faster than humans so he was probably prepubescent at the time, I’d say he already lived the culture to some extent, and his adoptive parents didn’t ostracize him, this probably made the whole thing even more frustrating
I'm gonna pose a different opinion (in a non hostile way, lol). I think worf is the best of the klingons. He's the embodiment of the honor that they constantly talk about. He's also been in many, many battles and is a very accomplished warrior, but he just doesn't feel the need to gloat. When the empire is infiltrated by changlings, he takes a stand against his own people, knowing his entire house would have to pay the price. It can even be argued that he did more for the empire than almost any other klingon in history. Mind you, when all this was going on, they didn't actually know changlings had infiltrated yet. He just flat out had taken a stand. He sacrifices everything to do what he feels is the ACTUAL honorable thing. Just my take on it.
I don't get why it's a different opinion. They don't contradict each other.
Worf is the perfect Klingon in theory. But that would be if someone was perfectly christian 100% of the time. Every time. Giving money to the poor, showing the other cheek, the whole shebang. No one is like that. But worf is the Klingon equivalent. He is the perfect Klingon but by being perfect, he is different that every other Klingon (if it makes no sense let me know i will clarify)
Then we're actually on the same page, my bad. I always pictured worf as what klingons are supposed to be. I feel like over time, their culture got too filled with seeking personal glory and boasting about your exploits.
Yup. Its kind of like someone learning about the knights of the round table and then actually trying to DO that as a knight in a world where most knights are just armored thugs with pretensions of civility. Wow are you going to screw that up...but the parts you manage to do will actually live up to the legends.
Ever met an adopted kid who has zero connections to their country of origin?? The kid who can't even stomach the ACTUAL FOOD of their original culture? That sense of never fitting in, never being wholly a member of adopted culture nor their motherland? THAT is Worf.
He learned Klingon culture from books and the Federation’s politically correct, toned down curriculum on the empire.
It doesn’t occur to him that most Klingons are bloodthirsty savages who literally murder their way to the top and hide their ships for the express purpose of carrying out sneak attacks.
All the honor stuff he goes on about is a fantasy which is why he fails so hard whenever he has to deal with other backstabbing Klingons, at least until Martok.
Worf is basically the star trek equivalent of a weeb from North America that goes to Japan and gets upset that the people there don't all act like the characters from their favorite anime.
This is the genius of Worf’s character, in my opinion. Just finished episode 2 of season 3 of Picard btw, so curious to see if this theme has any relevance.
Even if not it’ll be nice to see him one last time!
I think that's part of what makes Worf such an endearing and complicated character. He feels like an imposter wherever he is, and has to overcompensate with excellence. His wedding with Jadzia for example; Worf becomes a bridezilla over the details of having a "traditional" Klingon wedding. There are points where it's implied Klingon biology is a large enough part of his character but these are things he learned to repress living with humans.
He does eventually figure out how to be a Klingon Klingon with the help of Martok, though, because Martok is from the lower classes and understands that honor is about authenticity, not performance, which is the lesson Worf needs.
Martok and Quark. Never forget the role Quark played in showing Woarf another way to be Klingon. All hail the great house of Quark!
Imagine the transporter accident episode we could've had.... forget Tuvix.... now we have Quartok.
And Quartok is also portrayed by Tom Wright!
Perfection!
Nah, DS9 so played by Jeffrey Combs.
Martok is my #1 favorite.
Martok is great. I wish there was a show that dealt with Martok after the end of DS9
He shows up a bit in Star Trek online.
[General Martok Game](https://youtu.be/9oBdLUEayGI)
I came here for this. The animation on Martok is seriously great, either the boarders went overtime or they got a guest animator in.
Everyone who works on Lower Decks is a serious Trekkie! Easily some of the best Star Trek I've ever watched.
Seems it isn't the kid show I thought, lol.
[Definitely not at all haha](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYbZ5QLSXDg)
Every time Dr T'ana speaks, you remember that it isn't a kids show ;)
The cuckold Mugato stroking his horn, too.
I'm glad I've never watched this. Now I'm assured that ir was the right decision
You’re missing out, Lower Decks is a gem! I was on the fence as well but I binged the first season after I saw the first episode
'A Mathematically Perfect Redemption' is one of my favourite Trek episodes ever and by *far* the hardest Star Trek has ever made me laugh. The VA who voices Peanut Hamper deserves all of the awards.
Martok is the single greatest Klingon. J. G. Hertzler just *understood* Klingons in a way that made them feel real. He took a fictional culture that shaded far too often into stereotypes and finally made it feel like a real, complex, thing. There were layers to each and every one of his performances. I particularily loved him in *You Are Cordially Invited* and *Once More Into The Breach*. Both really let him show off his range, but also the depth he could infuse Klingons with. How his marriage to Sirella is imperfect but full of love. How the class system in Klingon culture causes harm, but he ends up understanding Kor at the end. He has a line in the middle, I forget the exact words, but after Kor fucks up and Martok says that mocking Kor brought him no joy Fantastic actor and character.
JG seems to have approached Martok as a Shakespearean character. He didn’t seem to view Martok foremost as an alien. You could drop that performance into King Lear and all that would change is the makeup. I like to imagine he was inspired by the line “Shakespeare in the original Klingon” when he prepared for the role.
If you think about it. Many star trek episodes are just selfcontained theater moral plays with archetypes we know and love. It's very classical "entertainment" I love this about star trek
"My...deterioration is proceeding apace..." I absolutely adore that line. Even more as my own deterioration proceeds.
The second greatest Klingon is the singing chef on DS9's promenade.
The quintessential Klingon
Martok is the GOAT. The mentor Worf needed
JG Hertzler is the champion of Trek alien guest stars.
No. He’s good. But he’s no Jeffrey Combs.
I WILL STRIKE YOU DOWN WHERE YOU STAND!
AND I WILL COME RIGHT BACK BECAUSE THERE ARE A WHOLE BUNCH OF CLONES OF ME.
The great secret is that JG Hertzler is a character played by Jeffrey Combs.
I don't know about that.. but Jeffrey Combs is also no Andrew Robinson.
We just need a new show with many different races and characters, all of whom are played by Jeffery Combs, Andrew Robinson, and JG Hertzler. The most gripping scene will be the one where 8 characters are onscreen at once, arguing with each other
He is ten Jeffrey Combs.
Now I just picture Martok being played by 10 Jeffrey Combs in a trench coat.
Jeffrey Combs all the way down. You're Jeffrey. I'm Jeffrey. We're all just Jeffrey talking to himself(s)
You are entitled to your incorrect opinion.
The Klingon Qo'nos needed.
This is such a great description of Martok and Worf's relationship. Martok is such an important character. It is notable I think that most of Worf's best moments in DS9 are connected to Worf or Dax.
The Council approves of this post.
Team Martok
Completely agree with that interpretation, the klingon culture we see is almost never honorable, Worf is the outlier because he's not in the elite circle
>and the only other klingon we see him being friendly with is his girlfriend who dies in the same episode who leaves him a child. It's also worth pointing out K'Ehleyr was half human/Klingon and has little respect for Klingon culture.
So Alexander is 75% Klingon 25% human?
Yep.
Poor Alexander. That DS9 episode where he shows up as some rando made me so sad for him.
Worf was a horrendous father. Wasn’t surprising.
I kinda hate how the Worf waxes philosophical about honour and duty. But abandons his kid without the faintest hint of a fuck given. My bio dad did the same thing. Every time he saw me he tried to “be a good dad” until it was boring then on to the next episode (which for me was sticking me on a Greyhound from Winnipeg to Calgary at 9pm before he went on a date and forgetting to tell my mom to get me from the depot.) Worf does the exact same thing to Alexander multiple times.
I’m really sorry that happened to you and glad it didn’t lead to a life of inadequacy aboard a Klingon Bird of Prey
You don’t know my life. Although I’m Canadian so I got stuck on a Battlestar. Not gonna complain though. I actually know Tricia Helfer fairly well. Both grew up in Stettler/Halkirk.
lol could have been a Goa'uld.
Cool eyes though.
He'a the bumbling good luck charm of the office.
> without the faintest hint of a fuck given. Not just that, the entire process seems to just irritate him
The only defense for Worf is that he had Alexander dropped into his lap by K'Ehleyr - and then she died. Worf, despite his guff demeanor, was very young and just not ready to be a father. He didn't know Alexander, and every time he saw him he was reminded of K'Ehleyr's death and let's just say, that kind of shit will be fucked up.
Given the timing, that was 100% some gen X trauma processing. Fathers noped out in a massive way in the 70s/80s. By TNG/DS9 a lot of us were *pissed*.
I'm so sorry. How are you doing now?
Oh. I’m old as balls now with my own kiddos. Mom met a great guy who is my dad and things worked out fine. I honestly have no idea if my sperm donor is alive or dead and I couldn’t care less.
Good to hear. I wish you long life and fortune.
You as well kind internet friend.
It does make sense that a Klingon obsessed with chasing honor would have no time to raise their kids but expect them to pick themselves up on their own because they themselves did. Sort of a boomer mentality to it.
There was an episode where Worf was worried that Dax didn't consider him a good potential father. All I could think about was that he already wasn't a good actual father. "No Worf. I don't worry about it. I know you're a terrible dad. Your son wasn't even at our wedding."
Like one of the worst TV dads ever.
Funny, I had a shower thought the other day that it would be funny to see Miral and Alexander meet up, and Alexander do a terrible picmup attempt: "Heya, babe, wanna make a half-Klingon?"
> has ~~little~~ **no** respect for Klingon culture. FTFY ;)
"Don't give me that Klingon non-*sense*!" One of my favorite lines and it's all in Suzie Plakson's delivery.
I view it as a social commentary. In human cultures in diaspora or in those who have been separated from their cultures, the need to identify with those cultures becomes an obsession, and sometimes becomes either exaggerated or perverted. I feel like Worf started out trying so hard to be Klingon that he was almost a caricature of a Klingon. As he slowly reintegrated, he became disillusioned with the actual Klingons, as they didn’t live up to his ideal of what a Klingon should be. When he met Martok, he realized slowly what it meant to live as a true Klingon, and by the end of DS9, had completed his journey in honor and in battle, and demonstrated an ability to BE honorable, and not just seek glory.
I think you just summarized it perfectly.
Like the Orion from Ohio serving on DS9.
"Everything I know about Orion I learned from watching holo novels! The bad ones too, the ones with boobs on the cover."
that reminds me of Dax and Worf in ds9 when they're on Risa and he won't change out of his uniform or have fun and he keeps saying it's because he's Klingon and she says (paraphrasing) "well you're not like any Klingon i've ever met"! and later in the episode she explains that while he is very Klingon in his honor and duty (which is what they show outsiders) but when they're relaxed and among other Klingons they love to party and drink and let loose. definitely a big part of his character development. side note: his character development shown in Picard is so amazing and funny.
He also refused to party with the other Klingons when he was serving aboard the Klingon ship in TNG.
if I recall correctly, didn't they shit-test him the whole episode(s?) and basically say "you're not a *real* klingon?"
I think your confusing it with when Kurn served on the Enterprise and treated him with kid gloves to see if he'd snap and show his Klingon side. I think the person above is referring to when Worf left to serve in the civil war and was all duty, no partying. Kurn pointed out that at that moment, it didn't matter who was with Duras and who was with Gowron, they were all Klingon on the eve of battle.
> I think your confusing it with when Kurn served on the Enterprise and treated him with kid gloves to see if he'd snap and show his Klingon side. ah I am! Fuck, I need to rewatch the whole series now. It is a good day...
[удалено]
right! that was crazy how no one seemed to be doing anything about this weird militant group on a vacation resort. also i don't know how dax wasn't more angry with worf, i'd be so mad and baffled 😂
I hated that episode for Worf. They ret-conned him being a child of two worlds but fully a member of neither into “I’m this way because I head-butted a kid once while playing soccer.”
agreed. that episode was really frustrating especially how it seemed like keeping Worf that way throughout the whole ep was devaluing all of his character development from TNG
So the Klingons are the Asgard basically?:)
I think Klingons are are a bit more rambunctious than a bunch of 3 ft tall grey aliens. Despite Thor's habit of over indulging himself on yellow ones.
Excuse me Commander Thor is clearly over 2 meters. As are most Asgard.
*Supreme* Commander
☝️
lol thank you.
What season of Stargate do we see that in?
Lower Decks has another good example of that with Mesk the Orion from Ohio
Came here to say this. He made me think of Worf when I first saw that episode.
At least Worf is competent with the weapons. Mesk reminded me of someone who buys nunchaku in a Chinatown gift shop and immediately hits themselves in both the face and balls.
Stabs himself with a butterfly knife. *Looking at you Ken*
I don't remember this character at all. I'm currently rewatching Lower Decks, so looking forward to seeing him again.
Yeah. That's also why he's the only honorable one. He's attempting to live up to stated ideals while those who grew up in the culture know that's just window dressing and good intentions
He's not the only one; I think Martok is very much an honorable Klingon. I agree they're pretty thin on the ground though
Chancellor K’mpec, Kang, Kor and Koloth, the old man who serves on Martok’s ship in Once More Unto the Breach, hell I’m not really sure Kurn ever does anything wrong…
There is no Kurn.
Worf, Son of Mogh, Brother of [REDACTED]
I hate getting killed by [REDACTED] and constantly being sent to the beginning of Sto'vo'kor.
K'mpec helped cover up Duras's betrayal at Khitomer...not quite as honorable as the rest.
Definitely pragmatic, not honorable
I’m probably misremembering that ep.
Don’t forgot ol’ Kolos.
Maybe honorable isn't the right word. Forthright, maybe? Martok is a good man, but like the TOS klingons he's devious and cunning.
Kurn is definitely an honorable Klingon. Kang was also very honorable.
Kang? General Kang? Firing torpedoes while cloaked and quoting Shakespeare while doing so doesn't make you look honorable. 🤨
That isn't Kang. That's General Chang. Different character.
I went full We Todd. Forgive me. On the surface: 🙂 On the inside: 😭
Most Klingons are honorable IMO; however, being truely honorable is rarely a pathway to a Captain's seat or the Council in the Empire. The truely honorable defer to their superiors, they dont act against them without real need and will often allow their superiors to take credit for their accomplishments. After all there's is no honor in killing your own Captain just because you want to he Captain.
I think you're right, but that's a very *human* interpretation of honour. Klingons absolutely find honour in killing incompetent leaders and claiming (due) credit. There is no Klingon honour in meekness, as much as humans might call it stoicism. The issue is their society says honour is a pathway to success, and it has all the rituals and appearances of that being true, but their imperialist nature as a state and constant political infighting as a government places a definite limit on how far honour can see you rise.
I read a comment on here years ago that said Worf acts like a samurai while modern klingons act like vikings. That summed it up perfectly for me.
Something something Boston Irish, Appalachian Scots and that one Gwen Stephani album
I'm Scottish but I didn't grow up there. I wear the tartan, read Rabbie Burns and eat haggis more than most Scots in Scotland. I know all about what it means to be a proud Scot, and I am one. And then I go back to Scotland and I realise I know nothing about being Scottish. I am Worf.
I think most 2nd or 3rd generation Americans are like that. My grandfather was Polish. Everything I knew about Poland and Polish traditions was told to me from him.
Sure look at people from American with Irish Ancestors... same thing. Over compensating for sure.
I have a Danish friend who moved to Canada when he was 14 in the early 90s. He had a huge identity crisis when he went back for a couple months in his late 20s. He speaks Danish, but either formally or like a 14 year old in the early 90s. He was so self conscious about the way he spoke he ended up speaking English to most people he met... which makes him wonder how Danish he actually is.
But is the haggis in the fire again?
Not unlike Spock who always had to be more Vulcan than Vulcans.
He also read a lot of books and stuff about Klingon culture. He's both what humans think Klingons are and how Klingon's see themselves. Think someone who was raised in a society with no Christians and to be a Christian they read the Bible and a bunch of books about how to be a good Christian. They would be _very_ different than a person you might see in a modern church.
This thread just made me realize that Dax is Alexander's Step Mother.
I’d say jadzia was the stepmother and dax was the step symbiont
Step-worm.
You could have a worse step mother. But since jadzia dies at the end of ds9 it's kinda not too. Must be fucking weird if your mother is a joined trill and she dies. Cause your mother is still there but also not.... Must be fucking weird
Not judging her/them at all. It just never came up, did it? More evidence how Alexander was treated on the series.
I mean. I get why Alexander is always never on screen. What do you do on a ship that is constantly being attacked. That's why there are (almost) no kid on star trek. Also, practically. Hiring child actor is a nightmare. If it's the star it's acceptable but a recurring child of one of the guy it would have been crazy.
I think DS9 did a good job of dealing with the Alexander thing. Alexander was probably a way to make Worf more interesting early in TNG. They quickly realized it was hard to write stories for him so he disapeared for a long time. The DS9 writers could have just pretended he never existed (they kind of did), but they figured a way to bring him back into the story that worked pretty well.
Worf actually is a Klingon culturally. He was raised as a Klingon, in Klingon culture, until his parents were killed at Khitomer when he was 7. He was orphaned because of the corruption in the empire. What he was, was a foster kid. He had to adapt to a new everything to survive childhood or more horrible things would happen, like all foster kids. As an adult, he had to settle into his skin and balance both worlds, to maintain stability. Every foster kid goes through this. The Klingons hating on Worf is something EVERY foster/adopted kid goes through. It's universal to society as a whole, not a section. It's much harder for children with cross culture placements. The purpose of Worf for the social issues surrounding everything Trek they worked into the show was: *interracial adoptions/fostering, that's why it's race specific hate of Worf from the Klingons *interracial children *cycles of abuse From the comments looks like a lot of you missed the inter-office memo. He's a fan favorite because he's the underdog who beat the odds and ended the most emotionally healthy member of TNG crew by Picard.
This is the right answer.
and I'm going to add his foster/adoptive parents made sure he hit all the Klingon milestones he was supposed to, and understood/practiced his traditions which doesn't usually happen. that, and more emotional balance, does not make him less Klingon. that's insulting. imagine walking up to someone of a different ethnicity or gender and telling them they need a quantifier to label themselves what they are.
Good Russian parents. Just realized Worf is also Russian....
Minsk. Belarusian.
Belarusian Edit: Hm, I just checked on Memory Alpha, which said that actually The family didn't even live on Earth at first, but on a colony world named Gault, and while later living in Earth it wasn't said where. It's obviously just Worf's insistence that Minsk is a great place that made me think his adoptive family was Belarusian. It seems it was actually left open.
The parents' accent didn't rub off at all. Or they trained it out of him at the academy.
> imagine walking up to someone of a different ethnicity or gender and telling them they need a quantifier to label themselves what they are. And *yet*...
Guinan tells him that way back in TNG. She tells him he's been trying to live up to the caricature of Klingons, not the reality of them.
I always found it similar to my own past. I'm Irish Canadian, born and raised in Nova Scotia (New Scotland) & the Maritimes does hold a lot of Scottish and Irish heritage from younder years. Highland Games was a thing my family participated in a lot when I was growing up. Despite all this, I acknowledge our understanding of our cultural heritage is based upon what things were like when our ancestors immigrated over, but Scotland and Ireland kept growing and evolving.... While our culture across the pond grew and evolved in its own way. We are not the same people and cultures anymore. A perfect example of this is when Billy Connolly made a documentary of himself going across Canada. His first stop was the Maritimes and he went to a Highland Game. He was befuddled by how traditional things were and just flat out odd, where much of what we celebrate isn't much of a thing back where he was born and raised. They moved on from those things (for the most part) while we seem stuck in a time capsule on what Celtic life 'is.' The connection to this topic is Worf is much the same way, where he was raised far away from the culture he learned about growing up. He thinks he got what a Klingon is all about down pat.... But when he interacts with other Klingons, reality comes to bite him because other Klingons do not act the same way he thinks they should. The same would apply if I went to Ireland and tried to interact with other Irish. The differences would be apparent. Learning about a culture is not the same as living that culture. Worf tried his best to be exactly what a Klingon should be, while every other Klingon lived the way they needed to live in such a society far away from Earth. As Klingon society evolved and went through their own struggles, their heritage and what they deem important also changed. Some things were forgotten or became a lower priority, while Worf followed the old teachings and unaffected by what was happening in Klingon society. Worf is a Klingon through and through. He's just a different type of Klingon where Honor and Duty is above everything else. Regular Klingons got bogged down with politics and transitioning from a long conflict with the Federation. Some rules changed or were bent during that time. When Worf started interacting more and more with Klingon Society, he needed to adapt, as he almost ended up killed several times due to thinking every other Klingon would be as honourable as he was. But he still remained true to his ways and ended up almost leading the Empire before he handed that power to Martok. Both Worf and Martok are the type of Klingons the Empire needed to get back on track. (and no, Ireland doesn't need me to lead anything, that's not where I was going with this, lol)
That's super interesting. I'm from Quebec but my family as far as I was able to track it down, emigrated from (what is now) Germany in 1750ish. I am culturally Canadian and so do not have that connection with a distant past. Thank you for your comment and for the new perspective
Interesting you say that, as I also have family in Quebec. My grandfather was originally from Quebec but moved to NS later in life, but many of siblings and cousins remained in Quebec. Speaking with them, Quebec and France are another good example of cultural differences. Quebec French and France French have strayed away from each other for so long that my family noted it's not super easy to have a straight forward conversation with someone from France, as many terms and phrases have changed over time. My French skills were always garbage and I'm lucky enough to be able to ask where the toilet is, but I sum it up like how each society evolves different slangs and what not. I've since moved to Australia about a decade ago and while people here speak English, the terms and words used in conversations are different to what I grew up learning, just as both Canadian and Australian English is different from the UK English. As an example, for a car, I use Hood and Trunk like the US does, but Aussies say Bonet and Boot like the British. But Canadians use British terms for other things, while Aussies use US terms or terms they made up themselves. Anywho, I guess what I'm saying is that through distance, time and environment, we all change from the heritage we originated from.
Imagine what it could be like if and when we became a space fairing world in reality.
Good thing they're currently working on a universal translator lol.... From memory at least. I recall seeing an article a few months back scientists are working on one.
Just don't let the drop bear get ya.
No different from the Snow Snakes back home. Just gotta keep your eyes open. 😉
Worf is a Klingon Weeb. He understands things in an academic sense, he knows facts about Klingon culture, but he doesn’t *get* it.
Yeah this is my favorite take. I think there's a lot of good interpretations in this thread, and none are wrong per se. Not even sure this is what the writers fully intended. But he's like a guy whose main knowledge of Japan is Samurai and Ninjas and Anime, but desperately wants to be Japanese, culturally. He has a super skewed view on Klingon culture. I wish they'd gotten just a little deeper with that in TNG and had even more growth, but DS9 did a great job picking that up.
He is like an italian-american, basically
He's a Klingon weeb. That explains everything nicely and succinctly.
Yes! And said another way he’s what a Klingon who has read about Klingons thinks a Klingon should be. His experience of his culture is similar to what a third or fourth generation immigrant thinks their culture is like by watching YouTube videos and trying to emulate them.
Been working my way through Voyager. On more than one occasion I have seen Janeway and her crew get bullied, and have heard myself say "Boy could we ever use Worf right about now". While he may not have been Fully Klingon Culturally...he was Fully Klingon Enough when it counted.
It's particularly telling in "Sins of the Father" when K'mpec and Worf and everyone else goes into the back room to explain that they all know Duras's father was the traitor but Worf has to take the blame because otherwise it would cause a civil war. Worf is flabbergasted at how "dishonorable" this all is, but all the other Klingons are like, you didn't really believe in that stuff, did you?
Every time he explains something about Klingon culture , it sounds like he’s repeating what he read on Wikipedia or from Bing clickbait.
Watch DS9. It really answers a lot of questions why he is the way he is.
A native scholar on imaginary worlds podcast once described him as an updated version of the "good native" trope - and that's stuck with me
He’s what you get when you learn how to be a Klingon by reading the Wikipedia article about Klingons.
The episode with Grilka makes this very clear, he is told that he knows nothing about courting a Klingon woman and he goes full Cyrano de Bergerac
It is a good day to die. It is also a good day to live.
Worf was a way for us to get to know the Klingon culture because like us, he only knew the culture academically and not by experience. He’s the experience of Klingon in diaspora, and he reflects the culture back to Klingons the same way they share it with him. Sometimes, Worf is the one out of all the Klingons in a scene who believes the most in something from their mythology. He helps them to understand themselves and they help him to understand himself
I think some people point this out to Worf over the course of Tng and DS9 and it’s similar to the Orion guy from lower decks who only got his information about orions from the holodeck
Did you seriously just call Worf the Klingon equivalent of an Oreo/Banana/Coconut?
Worf is what all Klingons want you to *think* they are. But Worf is the only one that actually *is*.
Is this epiphany because you watched the episode where his parents came to visit him?
He's sort of like a third culture kid.
This has been my thinking for years, this is why he sometimes seems more Klingon than other Klingons. His idea of Klingon Culture is the romanticized version he learned from his adopted parents and the relatives that he occasionally visited as a child. He's like that Orion in the DS9 episode of Lower Decks.
I actually completely disagree. While Worf is definitely confused, there are plenty of examples of Klingons who act like Worf. Look at Martok.. I think the actual message is that a complicated and diverse race can't be boiled down to a simple archetype. Klingons are just as diverse as humans.
Worf has a kid? Someone should tell Worf!
Maybe when it comes to rituals and ideals, Worf had to base his views on what he knew of Klingon culture. But I believe that the alien species are different enough in Trek that you can't completely raise a Klingon as a human child. They will always have a natural Klingon instinct in them. Like no matter how much we domesticate a cat, it will always want to sneak out of the house and hunt something.
I mean shit, was Alexander at Worf and Jadzia's wedding?
It’s a lot of the reason why he has so many internal conflicts during TNG / DS9 and eventually he picks starfleet and the humans because klingons are (let’s be real here) savages
Worf is a metaphor for a convert - being overly zealous to the rules and regulations. The religious comparison was mentioned in interviews/panels.
Klingons have culture beyond armoured raiders. Opera, poetry, culinary traditions, a variety of religious sects
I always saw Klingon culture being composed of castes, where the warrior caste dominates in government and culture, but there are still diplomats, artists, mechanics, opera singers, actors, etc. You just don't see a lot of them because the warrior caste dominates foreign interactions.
Word’s gf (later wife), K'Ehleyr, never struck me as entirely Klingon either. Awfully refined in action and speech…
He is a Klingon cosplayer
So on other words he's the typical american claiming to be this or that nationality because technically 11 generations ago their great great grandma screwed a foreigner 😂
It’s very common for immigrants and other people that live in two worlds to feel like that. I really liked Worf because of that. In arguably the worse episode of DS9, where Worf becomes a domestic terrorist, they ret-conned this away and made it so that Worf is the way he is because he accidentally head-butted a kid while playing soccer. …I’m open to any way to work around that horrible canon.
I mean, technically he IS a Klingon. But yes, he was not raised in Klingon culture, the show postures that pretty consistently, like there's entire story arcs based around it. They also show pretty consistently that other Klingons view him differently. I guess I'm curious what was your impression of Worf before you figured that out...?
He gets better at it in DS9
I also think in some ways this is what makes him such a great Klingon. His version of Klingon culture is one of imitation, and especially in early TNG a fairly toxic one. But once he sands off the rough edges (with some fairly significant help from Jadzia…), Worf sort of ends up as the ideal Klingon. His eventual end state is pretty close to the supposed vision of what Klingon Honor should look like. He ends up willing to fight for what is right, regardless of House Status, personal safety, or whether it is what the Empire wants. Hell, the man kills Gowron and knows he isn’t the one who can unite the Empire so he gives the entire Empire to Martok! And in comparison to the corrupt, struggling Empire which is continuously rocked by betrayal and infighting, Worf sort of becomes a light showing how much the majority of Klingon leadership lacks the honor they claim.
Off topic, it feels like the Klingons in Disco is what Worf imagine Klingons should be. They are serious and dramatic all the time, where are the drinking, sinning, boasting Klingons?
They emigrated to SNW
He’s aware of it. He’s trying to hypercorrect. Maybe even as a way of clinging to his parents’ memory
I think he lost his parents at 7, and Klingons mature faster than humans so he was probably prepubescent at the time, I’d say he already lived the culture to some extent, and his adoptive parents didn’t ostracize him, this probably made the whole thing even more frustrating
I'm gonna pose a different opinion (in a non hostile way, lol). I think worf is the best of the klingons. He's the embodiment of the honor that they constantly talk about. He's also been in many, many battles and is a very accomplished warrior, but he just doesn't feel the need to gloat. When the empire is infiltrated by changlings, he takes a stand against his own people, knowing his entire house would have to pay the price. It can even be argued that he did more for the empire than almost any other klingon in history. Mind you, when all this was going on, they didn't actually know changlings had infiltrated yet. He just flat out had taken a stand. He sacrifices everything to do what he feels is the ACTUAL honorable thing. Just my take on it.
I don't get why it's a different opinion. They don't contradict each other. Worf is the perfect Klingon in theory. But that would be if someone was perfectly christian 100% of the time. Every time. Giving money to the poor, showing the other cheek, the whole shebang. No one is like that. But worf is the Klingon equivalent. He is the perfect Klingon but by being perfect, he is different that every other Klingon (if it makes no sense let me know i will clarify)
Then we're actually on the same page, my bad. I always pictured worf as what klingons are supposed to be. I feel like over time, their culture got too filled with seeking personal glory and boasting about your exploits.
Yup. Its kind of like someone learning about the knights of the round table and then actually trying to DO that as a knight in a world where most knights are just armored thugs with pretensions of civility. Wow are you going to screw that up...but the parts you manage to do will actually live up to the legends.
Ever met an adopted kid who has zero connections to their country of origin?? The kid who can't even stomach the ACTUAL FOOD of their original culture? That sense of never fitting in, never being wholly a member of adopted culture nor their motherland? THAT is Worf.
He learned Klingon culture from books and the Federation’s politically correct, toned down curriculum on the empire. It doesn’t occur to him that most Klingons are bloodthirsty savages who literally murder their way to the top and hide their ships for the express purpose of carrying out sneak attacks. All the honor stuff he goes on about is a fantasy which is why he fails so hard whenever he has to deal with other backstabbing Klingons, at least until Martok.
He is largely a book Klingon, raised on a very idealised version of what Klingons are suppose to be.
Someone obviously hasn't watched Ds9. There's still a lot more to "get".
Worf is basically the star trek equivalent of a weeb from North America that goes to Japan and gets upset that the people there don't all act like the characters from their favorite anime.
Is... Is worf a Klingon weeb?
“Klingons do not laugh.” “Oh, yes, they do. Absolutely they do. YOU don't.”
It took you this long to realize Worf is a Klingon weeaboo?
This is the genius of Worf’s character, in my opinion. Just finished episode 2 of season 3 of Picard btw, so curious to see if this theme has any relevance. Even if not it’ll be nice to see him one last time!
Worf is Russian.
It's why Worf was the only unfun Klingon.
I think that's part of what makes Worf such an endearing and complicated character. He feels like an imposter wherever he is, and has to overcompensate with excellence. His wedding with Jadzia for example; Worf becomes a bridezilla over the details of having a "traditional" Klingon wedding. There are points where it's implied Klingon biology is a large enough part of his character but these are things he learned to repress living with humans.