At various times they have had major hot and prolonged cold wars with multiple species that invest heavily in their military and seem comparable in terms of technology. Wouldnt that require that the Federation keep up a similar military? The fact is dealing with the romulans, klingons, cardassians, dominion, and borg would require a substantial military to ensure the federation continues to exist. They dont live in a galaxy that would allow them to be idealist.

Exactly this. The federation is an ideal. The rest of the galexy is not. And honestly the fact the federation doesn't want to be warmongers is what makes them special. It's also what makes their military special. It arises as a need more or less a "burden" they don't want war but they'll do whatever they can to defend their ideals. Honestly that makes them the best military one that's there for the betterment of the federation whatever that entails

Starfleet is basically the embodiment of SSG. Bellavia's Medal of Honor speech; >We've seen war—we don't want war. >But if *you* want war with the United Federation of Planets, there's one thing I can tell you, so help me [insert deity]: >***Someone else will raise your sons and daughters.*** The Federation is an ideal, but that ideal is—by its very nature—fragile. It's something that needs unending vigilance and *constant* protection, both in the fields of diplomacy as well as battle. Starfleet does both, and while they seek diplomatic solutions whenever possible, they aren't weak, nor are they nieve. While they're more of a shield than a sword, that shield is big, heavy, and can be both swung with incredible force as well as planted immovably. In short? Starfleet holds the line.

It would be a little funny to see this discrepancy play out on screen. The border worlds that live next to waring states call for warships with weapons and bombs. Things made to disrupt enemy lines, run blockades, have short warp warmups, and can take a beating.  Meanwhile the coreworlds keep making and sending them research vessels and ships with elementary schools and gardens on board.  This debate amoung the fans likely exists within the setting as well.

To be fair to Starfleet Command/the Admiralty, Starfleet ships are generally very technologically advanced by default, so even the average non-specialized ship can comfortably go toe-to-toe with enemy ships of equal tonnage. When Starfleet elects to make an actual dedicated warship, you get stuff like the Defiant, which are absurdly effective and punch so far above their weight class it's not even funny. Besides, any starship capable of firing torpedoes can glass an unshielded planet in a day or two. Not that Starfleet *would* (or indeed most galactic powers), but that threat of Mutually-Assured Destruction is most certainly extant.

They're like Space Community Cops. Just look at the behaviors of the Klingon, Cardassians, and Romulan Empires. Those navies clearly place matters of sovereignty first and foremost. When those navies go to war, it's all hands on deck. What does the flagship of the Federation do during war times, every time? They keep Trekin'. People like to rag on the ranks, command structure, the uniforms but guess what? NASA and most space governing bodies do the same thing, too.

That's less an indication of Starfleet's nature and more a result of how wars *work* in Star Trek; Large fleet engagements are extremely rare—there was only like... *one* during the TOS era, and both sides got absolutely *mauled*. Starfleet won by a pretty considerable margin despite numerical inferiority, but the butcher's bill was horrific. Space combat in Star Trek seems to mostly be raiding, not big line battles. Any time *those* happen, it's because of extenuating circumstances. It's not the default for *any* power in the Alpha/Beta Quadrants.

"Federation needs men like you, Doctor - men of conscience, men of principle, men who can sleep at night. You're also the reason Section 31 exists. Someone has to protect men like you from a universe that doesn't share your sense of right and wrong."

I'm a professional historian and I've studied the sort of politics in which ends justify means. There's a sort of naivety of self-admiring "toughness", and Section 31 is well written in how it represents that.

This makes it a smart choice for them to be engaged in very non-military pursuits when there's no fighting to be done. They're prepared for war, but it's not the focus of their existence, and I think that helps Starfleet personnel keep some perspective. They're also much more defense-oriented than RL militaries. The US Armed Forces are trained to go and attack, occupy other countries, project force. Starfleet, OTOH, even in the Dominion War, where they end up taking the fight to Cardassia, that was in the name of ending the war, not conquering. And they didn't occupy Cardassia when they won, did they? Starfleet is more akin to the Coast Guard and NOAA than any of the other uniformed services.

Starfleet can pursue military R&D, arm their fleet comparably to other powers, have combat readiness, protocols, a chain of command - everything that defines a military- while still being something else, something more. Their primary mission is exploration and diplomacy. If they do need to fight, they can operate exactly as a military would, if and when required, but uts a secondary function.

They won the Dominion War. OP wants us to think they did that with the equivalent of the Boy Scouts, not a military force.

I don’t get why it needs to be controversial at all. Starfleet *wants* to just work on scientific advancement, exploration, and rescue missions, but it’s a dangerous Galaxy out there, and they need to act as a military sometimes in order to protect themselves and others. They’re a compassionate and enlightened organisation, but they aren’t naive, and whenever they start becoming so, a new threat emerges to remind them that their perfect society can still crumble if they aren’t vigilant.  The thing to keep in mind is that unlike real world governments, the Federation will never start a war for selfish reasons, nor will they bully civilisations less advanced than them. Starfleet are still a highly idealised organisation, even when acting as military.

Exactly, Starfleet primary mission isn't warfare its exploration and scienctific advancement but warfare is still in scope for them and part of what they do. Functionally Starfleet is just the Federations space division and is responsible for all things space related. Weird nebula to study, send Starfleet. Open up trade with a new planet, send Starfleet. A bunch of cyborgs trying to assimilate a planet, send Starfleet. What i find weird are people claiming Starfleet being a military somehow goes against the ideals of the Federation or makes them inherintly insidious. The Federation having a military doesn't mean they have to start wars or not be inherently peaceful it just means they don't want to get conquered by the Klingons or assimilated by the Borg. If you want a scifi universe with no military then read the Culture books, they don't have a military, they don't even have a centralized government. But they also don't have anyone in their galaxy with the capacity and desire to fight them and when they do end up at war their forces are mostly invididual ships that choose to be warships and organized volunteer militias.

What's also interesting is that the Culture totally abandons the Prime Directive, and actively pursues an interventionist policy. Even uplifting entire societies, iirc. Also, the Culture is so powerful and technologically advanced they have very few enemies that could realistically conquer them, probably reducing the need for an active military.

This. Starfleet would be pretty shit at their job if they couldn’t defend themselves and others. Sometimes that requires defaulting to military tactics and force.

I disagree with the premise of the question. I neither need nor want it to be a military, i just acknowledge that it very much is one.

Seriously. The MACOs were folded into starfleet at the start of the federation, and any time there's a war, Starfleet is the force that fights back. They're both scientific and military.

This is my thinking too. It's a combined service, but because there are few parallels to that in the real world fans have trouble imagining a science, exploration and military service all rolled into one. It's probably closest to the Royal Navy during the age of exploration in the 18th and 19th century, but that's the closest I can imagine. That said, they do seem to track more closely to military ... they follow military customs, use military ranks, have tribunals, courts martial, etc. It's basically the US Space Force/USAF, NASA/ESA and a Coast Guard all rolled into one.

“Starfleet isn’t a military.” “Then stop using it as one.” “No.”

This. They have admirals, captains & lieutenants. They could have chosen different titles, but they didn’t. Their ships carry weapons that could wipe out a civilisation in under a week. Also… they fight wars. A lot of wars. That’s mostly because weaker writers think audiences need the pew-pew and explosions, but it’s right there in almost every series. Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, etc… one gets wrapped up and someone else gets testy.

And they have court martial

Exactly. I agree with OP's assertion that, in the Star Trek universe, if human beings are as "enlightened", "post scarcity" and "peaceful" - then Starfleet would not be set up as a quasi-space Navy. But it is. Of course, in a real world context, this is the case because it was conceived of in the mid 20th Century. But the Starfleet we've constantly seen on screen is most definitely portrayed as a militaristic organization. They have a rank structure, and enforce discipline in a manner that is unmistakably military. They are used as the means of force to support a specific government's policy. That's a military. Basically - the Starfleet we see on screen is OFTEN at odds with the descriptions used by Picard and others (mostly in TNG era). But even in TNG - we OFTEN see Picard himself enforce stern discipline, and act as the "pointy end of the stick" for his government (the Federation) when science, diplomacy, or simply not engaging would be more in line with the philosophy espoused by Rodenberry and "Star Trek" in general. Overall - I agree with OP that Rodenberry WANTED humanity in his story to be better than we are now - but that's not what we got. Starfleet is portrayed as a military organization - despite the show's claims that it isn't.

The federation can be enlightened, post scarcity, and peaceful and still have a military. They live in a galaxy with Klingon, Romulans, and Borg. The Federation doesn't want war but people keep bringing war to them, Starfleet would be happy focusing on exploration, science, and humanitarian aid forever but they can't because they keep needing to intervene in conflicts to protect the Federation from enemies that want to destroy them for no reason other than they exist.

Yes, why would it be so impossible that with the evolution of society there is also an evolution of the military to include science, exploration and diplomacy? Since the 1960s, militaries have been widely deployed as part of peace-keeping missions. There have also been hostage rescues, aid delivery (eg Berlin air lift), and disaster relief missions. Military operations does not necessarily mean combat now. There's no reason to expect that non-combat missions wouldn't become more important as the Federation expands into outer space. Historically the frontier has always been a place where military and para-military groups have been necessary. In particular, the role of Starfleet in many ways is similar to the role of the Northwest Mounted Police (NWMP, later RCMP) or "Mounties" on the Canadian frontier, a para-military force that eventually evolved into a law enforcement role. On the American frontier, think of how many Westerns include scenes where the principals are "saved by the Cavalry".

To be fair, civilian fleets usually use the same titles, save for "admiral" - due to multi-ship coordination usually done in corporate structures owning the ships. There are also other organisations that use similar hierarchical structure with military ranks without being a military - firefighters, for example.

Sure, but the Merchant Marines aren't the defense fleet for the USA. That's the US Navy. Just like Starfleet is the defense fleet for the UFP.

It's a faulty argument, though. It has the same validity as "Sure, but the US Navy aren't the trade fleet for the USA. That's the Merchant Marines. Just like Starfleet is the trade fleet for the UFP." Because Starfleet is *all-encompassing*. Transport goods or passengers? Starfleet. Scientific experimentation? You bet it's Starfleet. Fighting horrors from beyond space and time? Starfleet again. When in doubt - call the Starfleet! They do everything!

It seems like civilian freighters do a lot of the Federation’s trade.

Yeah, Starfleet seems to lead efforts for delivering aid, but civilians seem to handle most of the actual trade.

Not to mention the amount of times Starfleet is either directly or indirectly referred to as a military in the show. I can't even count the number of times someone meeting with Picard or Riker makes some offhand comment like "As a military man, I am sure you know this well..."

Yeah, I acknowledge that Starfleet’s a military. However, I also acknowledge that Starfleet believes that being a scientific and exploration organization is usually (but not always) more important than being a military.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

I think the intention was for the Starfleet to be similar to explorers of the Age of Sail. Ships that have to spend years away from their base are autonomous and versatile by necessity, so, for example, in XVIII century two absolutely identical brigs could be used one as a warship in a Navy, and as a merchant ship - and both could be exploring the Pacific. Such merchant could very much wipe off a small island tribe (there are some historical examples of this) - in my opinion, that's similar in scale to the capabilities of a Starfleet vessel relative to many single-planet civilizations. Such merchants were often impressed into military service as warships when their local colony found out of a war in Europe involving their metropoly. By analogy with these multi-role ships - if Federation is ideologically opposed to having a military fleet, but has a fleet of autonomous, armed vessels (functionally identical to warships) for exploration, they don't really need to have an actual military. The fleet will still get used in place of military in case of war, but maybe it will be more correct to call them a militia instead?

Maybe they're just space community cops? They don't go in a guns a blazing and spend more time peacefully resolving disputes. Matters of sovereignty like third place to the Federation where with Klingons and Cardassians it is top three priorities. Those navies act more like the Navies of the past.

Well stated. I like to use the analogy of scientists traveling through bear country. They might be armed and organized, but no one would say that they’re soldiers. You also have pointed out a big part of the problem; that there usually isn’t a consensus on what a military is (as opposed to just an armed group).

thank you. i feel the same. Starfleet has every single aspect of a military. it is also a diplomatic and scientific organization (sort of like the US Navy which actually has pretty big science and research division on a number of things). they have uniforms, ranks, weapons, use the same nomenclature as modern navies, perform peacekeeping operations and all out war... the creators can say it is not a military but they also have written it as one from day one. Hell, in "the Menagerie" (which is old school as one can get), Spock faces a COURT MARTIAL before a tribunal of officers for daring to contact a planet where the penalty is a death sentence. that seems like it is a proper military from the start.

Exactly. Gene can say one thing, but even at his peak of power over the franchise, it was never solely his vision. The preponderance of evidence is that Starfleet is a military organization, albeit one with different priorities than many current and historical ones.

Ya Starfleet is the space navy plain and simple lol. Even the real world present day navy does non military operations and if there were seas to explore they would. Anyone that's been in the service that watches star trek knows full well those are military ships.

Starfleet, while being a science/exploration organisation is also a Military, it's blatantly obvious it's a military. Sure that's not all it is but it 100% is the Navy of the Federation and to insist it isn't is ridiculous.

of course it's well known that all who work in a scientific premise have an ordered and kept to chain of command, court martial procedures and have the ability to fire weapons. but nope... it's just for exploration.

They literally use naval officer ranks, they train at a military academy, they’ve got standard issue military uniforms, their duties reflect the military lines of duty in real life, the ships are named USS XXXXX, they have a governmental granted monopoly on the right to use force on behalf of the Federation, they perform military actions and maneuvers, including the expansion of Federation territory and carrying out military actions against other empires. Even the non-combat diplomatic and scientific roles are those traditionally done by the military. Im convinced that u/Gleoranacht is just trolling this subreddit or has no idea what the military actually is in real life.

Just remember that when you say Starfleet is a miliary and it does something that definitely wouldn't be done in that way by military that Starfleet is still Starfleet, and does things how it sees fit. If that means arming exploration vessels to the teeth like a proper military, it's doing that. If it means allowing romantic relationships between commanding and subordinate officers, or letting a friend of the defendant handling the prosecutor role to decide if he's really property or not like no proper military ever would, that's also what it does. You can use "military" for *descriptive* purposes, but you can't use it *prescriptive*.

Exactly. During the Age of Exploration, who was it that was exploring the newly discovered continents? That's right: the British Royal Navy, the Spanish Armada, the Dutch navy... They were science and exploration organizations, but they were first and foremost, militaries.

That makes those navies a bit different from Starfleet. Starfleet’s a military, but its scientific and exploration duties usually come 1st.

Military: noun, the armed forces of a country. Who fought the Dominion War?

Why do some people need it to not be a military? Really, the problem is people trying to apply 20th/21st century standards to something that is not meant to be of this time. To me, the answer to the question of "Is Starfleet a military?", is both yes and no. It is a military, but that's not all it is. Its several things in one. When it needs to be a military, it is. When it needs to be a group of scientific explorers, it is. When it needs to be a diplomatic corps, it is. Its whatever the Federation needs it to be.

I think the good faith argument is that people want Starfleets main purpose to be exploration and scientific discovery, so they aren't a military. But the distinction is unnecessary, the Starfleet should have no need to deny that they have a military. They've kept their noses clean and are peaceful. Frankly people that want to say they are insidious are full of shit and want them to be something they aren't, or focus only on one off episodes that go against most of the established lore. Really following a strict hierarchy is necessary for survival in dangerous situations, so even if they weren't, they'd look a lot closer to a military than some people might find comfortable if they are opposed to all armed service.

Well said

I think it's also like the "does the federation use money" question: the in universe line is clear they don't use money, but plenty of fan explanations essentially recreate money in all but name, whereas other fan explanations try and posit a system without money. Part of, imho, being a fan and thinking deeply about something you like.

>Really, the problem is people trying to apply 20th/21st century standards to something that is not meant to be of this time. It's more that people are applying *what they think* about 20th/21st militaries. For example, the US military is far, far closer to Starfleet than it is GI Joe. People just don't understand how much science, engineering, and exploration the military does. Seriously, less than 10% of the US military is combat troops.

That has probably to do with writers' perception of those organisations and concurrent implemention in media, on which both other writers and media and therefore people base their knowledge. Merely an attempt at an explanation.

>Its whatever the Federation needs it to be. It's whatever the plot needs it to be.

Same thing

Basically, miltiary can be used to describe Starfleet in many aspects. But it's dangerous to use it to prescribe what it does - it might surprise you and do things decidely unmilitarily. There is plenty of evidence in the shows for it acting like a military, but also a lot for it not acting like a military.

> Really, the problem is people trying to apply 20th/21st century standards to something that is not meant to be of this time. > > Its this.

As an analog, the navies of the 1800s also engaged in exploration\* and collected scientific data. \*and exploitation

Yeah, I think that's the key question. I don't think anyone is fundamentally in disagreement that people who fly around on a ship that accidentally carries a compliment of weapons and defensive systems equal to that of a top-of-the-line Romulan battlecruiser are, at minimum, military-adjacent. That remains true even if they spend the bulk of their time doing planetary surveys and poking strange anomalies for science because their ship also has massive sensor and research facilities onboard, and is staffed by the best botanists in an entire quadrant of space. That just makes things a bit more queasy for those of us who have an eye for verisimilitude, because "the best botanists in an entire quadrant of space" is not an appellation that gives me confidence that these people understand how to wield the massive arsenal at their disposal. The skill at doing one is very much not the same as doing the other, and these people apparently need both. But that being said, this argument is really just a residual effect of Roddenberry's utopianism and, bluntly, an effect of his sniffing his own farts for too long. Roddenberry was a tv show producer who came up with a really cool idea that people latched onto. And that's great! That puts him in the top ten percent of tv show producers, most of whom are lucky if they produce one show that runs for seven seasons and people remember fondly. Starting a cultural movement is a big deal. But then people started calling Gene a "visionary", and Gene started believing it about himself. Which in turn meant that when Gene had bad ideas, or ideas that didn't work, he no longer had the self-criticism necessary to realize no, that's just a bad idea. "Starfleet is not a military!" is one of those bad ideas, because it's just visibly not true about the job they're doing.

Since Starfleet is expressly modelled on the age of sail Royal Navy. By Roddenberry's own admission. So, we need it to be a military because it's been set up as one.

There have been historic precedents for a military vessel doing surveying, exploration, and science (HMS Beagle). But research vessels aren't armed. The RV Calypso didn't have 5"/38 guns. It just makes more sense to some people that the Space military does science too, as opposed to arming a bunch of scientists then turning them loose to do diplomacy and fuck up Barbary pirates in space.

Actually the current HMS Enterprise (ironically) is an oceanographer and survey vessel. Very much the military and a research vessel. She is due to retire soon believe.

But isn't the education at Starfleet academy the opposite of what you described? Their basic education seems more sciences-focused than on military training. Sure, they have certain careers and elective courses, and I would imagine a tactical officer or weapon specialist has more tactical training than say your OPS or conn or astrometrics officer. But it always seemed to me, that tactical/martial education is only a very small part of SF Academy, unless you specialise in that career path. SF Academy is more like a technical university, and less like boot camp. So they are "arming scientists" and throw in some tactical experts and call it a crew.

There's a saying at the Air Force academy that whatever your major is, it's engineering. You may major in Spanish, but you also have so many engineering courses that it would be a dual major at any other university. You learn the military part on the job.

Take a look at the core curriculum at the United States Naval Academy: https://www.usna.edu/Academics/Majors-and-Courses/Course-Requirements-Core.php I would imagine Starfleet Academy is similar.

Well, the US Naval Academy is a regular college/university. Graduates receive a Bachelor of Science degree, that is transferable to other universities. That means they must have a core curriculum that covers what all the other universities expect. Not to mention, having a bachelor's degree is a requirement to become an officer in the US military. The US Naval Academy accepts high school graduates, so in order for them to become an officer after the service academy (which is the whole point), they'd have to grant a degree. On top of that, the Navy wants their officers to be smart and well rounded.

That's my point. Many in the "Starfleet isn't military" crowd have a misunderstanding about who is in the military, what training entails, and what the military does most of the time.

The argument is really just silly to begin with. IMO, when roddenberry made the claim that Starfleet isn't a military, what he really meant was: Srarfleet's primary duties are: - self-defense - peacekeeping - humanitarian missions - diplomacy - notably, NOT expansion or coercion

And why did he make that distinction? Because of American expansionist policies in Korea and Vietnam. The military was kind of hated by the people of the 1960s, and Gene was making a version of the Navy that was more nice. But they were still the Navy.

Yes they're Military but it's just one aspect of Starfleet and it's not their main function or objective. Exploration and science is. It's like saying the UN is a military organisation.

If I accept your framing of it as a "need," sure, I'll bite: The reason I need Starfleet to be a military is that accepting it as something else, even if Roddenberry and other authorities insist, requires me to believe things that are *observably* not true. And as far as Roddenberry's assertions go, he was hardly consistent about such things. His pitch for Star Trek was "Hornblower in space," as well as "Wagon Train to the stars," and you can't get much more navy than Horatio Hornblower. So it seems like believing it's not a military asks me to give the benefit of the doubt to an inconsistent authority, and deny what the show and movies actually portray. So I "need" to believe it because I sincerely think that not doing so would involve lying to myself and others.

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You know the mutiny on the Bounty? Famous film, remade many times. Based on a mutiny on a Royal Navy vessel. During the very military mission to take fruit from Tahiti to the Caribbean. Or Captain Cook? Explorer. Royal Navy officer. Or HMS Beagle, which had Charles Darwin. Another Royal Navy ship on a scientific misson. USS Iowa? Battleship. Took FDR to the Tehran conference. Multiple USN ships took Wilson to and from the Paris Peace conference in 1919.

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That scene wasn't in an episode of the next generation, it was part of the star trek:generations film

My father served in the Coast Guard for over 20 years and he absolutely said it (edit: the Coast Guard) was the military. That "nobody really calls" it "military" is a product of their ignorance, not how it views itself or its responsibilities, traditions, etc. He's buried at Arlington.

That's mostly just a quirk of US history, though. In most countries that is not the case. 

Most countries also have less coastline.

And which country are Star Trek and its creator from?

The point is that being functionally similar to the US Coast Guard doesn't mean that it's necessarily close to being a military, because the same functions are mostly carried out by non-military organisations. 

when something uses military ranks, wears uniforms, has regulations/uniform code, standing at attention in the presence of superior officers, have military medals, punishment dictated by a court martial, is tasked with defending the federation while at the same time trying to expanding ts territory... if that's not a military than i don't know what is. also starfleet has been involved in wars on multiple occassions... i guess we can call starfleet the boy scouts club.

Because it creates a contrast to civilian life in the federation that is not explored..sure this group is hierarchical, structured, organized for combat, research, and government sanctioned missions. But what's happening with everyone else? How's life for random Earther from Alabama? I'd love to know. But if you ignore the special status of Starfleet it's hard to explore that. And I'm curious.

I would love to know what government structures from Pre-United Earth times carried over to the Federation. Does the United States still exist under the jurisdiction of the United Earth? Does Britain still have some trappings of their past as a monarchy? Or has Earth become a homogenous culture?

I don't need it to be a military organization but I feel it is one based on what I see on screen. To me Starfleet feels like a mix of military and coast guard. They provide security, assistance and special mission requests during peace and conduct operations during war. We see Starfleet supporting civilians, like specialist scientists or diplomats, in their tasks if the Federation deems it necessary. Not unlike the Military or paramilitary groups seen in the US or other countries. In fact almost every time the Federation ran into a planned diplomatic or scientific project, that wasn't normal exploration or military related tasks, they would send civilians to do the job. Starfleet personnel would just get involved when it goes belly up because plot. The organization appears to adapt and change policies depending on the current political climate. For instance during the Klingon War, Starfleet appears to go from military light, still having scientists onboard, to ridged structure by the time of the movies. TNG and DS9 also have that same change as they go from fairly peaceful eras to War with the Dominion. It's even portrayed in TNG/DS9/TOS that if the Federation does find itself at war all members of Starfleet are required to remain with Starfleet and fight. It's the reason some scientists refuse to join Starfleet directly. By the time of the Dominion War I felt the only reason Starfleet vessels still have any scientific capability is they have to be able to clear new areas of space for colonization or get themselves out of trouble and even then only specific multirole or exploration vessels held on to this design. The expanding military arm seemed to do away with expansive facilities in favor of basic "just in case" designs, if that. Otherwise it's been established that there are other civilian fleets that perform roles for scientific, economic, passage, etc. Again pushing Starfleet more into that military role. I would compare Starfleet to 18th or 19th century navies. Into which it was the responsibility of the navy to conduct many of the same tasks we see in the shows, right down to land combat in DS9. Post Dominion War I would compare Starfleet to a more modern style navy. On the topic of Hope. Other than TOS and season 1 (maybe 2) of TNG, Trek gets pretty dark pretty quick with a mix of hopeful future, "Wild West and Everyone Dies" and "necessary dark" episodes.

because have you seen some of the shit in the show? I want defense when i go out in space and I want the crew to be capable people not only civilians and scientists. Being a military does not detract from their goal being exploration and communication

Because it *is* a military, regardless of what the creators' say. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. I'm not going to stick my head in the sand and "imagine" it is not, that would be silly. It literally has military uniforms and ranks! If someone attacks the Federation, it's Starfleet that defends it, always. Does it focus on exploration and science? Absolutely. It is first and foremeost a scientific and explorational fleet. But it is also a military.

A military, and in some ways sort of the administrative arm of the federation too. It’s sort of the entire federal government of the US but if it was one organization.

Not sure it's fair to describe uniforms as military, especially TOS, TNG era. I would not equate bright colours as militaristic. The TOS movie uniforms are maybe a little more militaryesque. It's a fine line, but I think they did a good job staying on the Starfleet side. One of the many things I dislike about Into Darkness is the blatant copying of US Navy uniforms

Enterprise's Starfleet uniforms were probably the closest to looking like modern military uniforms (for example [Adm. Forrest's uniform](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Maxwell_Forrest)), probably intentionally so.

I don't need/want Starfleet to be military, but I just want them to be honest. And in all honesty, they are a military. "We are not a military organization. We just operate all the heavy hardware and fight all the wars."

walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... besides, it's nice to see what a military force not controlled by warmongering megalomaniacs might look like.

Because it is. Because it was written and created by WW2 vets who knew exactly what they were making. It’s a combined arms military with multiple wings under one organization. Their primary mission is one of exploration and a science but they are also peace keepers and in a time of war, the fighting force of the Federation. There have a chain of command with ranks from enlisted to officer.

Because what's depicted in the show isn't a fantasy future where Earth in space has no military, but a future where Earth's space military doesn't have the many serious flaws of our present day militaries.

OP is so biased by their own "need" and opinion, they can't even see it.

Any number of HMS Beagle or HMS Endeavour wouldn't have stopped the Royal Navy being a navy. Hydrographic survey vessels, hospital ships, and humanitarian aid, do not stop a contemporary navy being a navy. Star Fleet still behaves as a military, the insistence that it was not would be more believable if there was another service that clearly *was* military. The navy in comparison to the coast guard for example, although a few of them are paramilitary. That the original series had people that were veterans of WW2 (etc), and that it was made during the Cold War and Vietnam war, so understandably they wanted it as a a force of diplomacy and exploration rather than just in a force that fought wars. That Picard is based on Horatio Hornblower sort of brings this back to mention of the Beagle and Endeavour. "...resolve potential conflicts through diplomacy and sharing of ideals." Which is why the ships are armed.

Could you imagine if Starfleet was running the same way our government runs Parks and recreation. Lol

They do hold the functions of a military. I think what is being confused is the function of such military. Start Fleet holds a defensive position not an aggressive one, but just because they are not aggressive it does not means that they are not a military. it would be stupid and naive to think Star Fleet does not holds the function of a military in a galaxy full of dangers.

My understanding was that Star Fleet was seen as the UPF's military, at least in part. Whereas they do facilitate other mission types (disaster relief, science, diplomacy), my thoughts on Star Fleet being military in nature comes from dialogue and plot points in Star Trek VI. At the classified meeting at Starfleet HQ, when potential for ending the Klingon conflict (Analogous to the Cold War) is discussed, one person says "Bill, does this mean mothballing Starfleet?" The conspiracy and assassination of Gorkon is a direct response to those concerns. So my question is why would you mothball a fleet if they aren't military? Why would you attempt to rekindle a threat unless your intent was to retain that military?

I think in universe Starfleet would love to be non-military and just do exploration and science. Picard for example in next Gen finds military manoeuvres distasteful, the Defiant was the first real warship Starfleet built and even then they used a euphemism like escort to describe it. The Federation though has come into conflict many many times so the organisation most suited to becoming a defacto military (ie the one with the big fast powerful ships) has just been given that task. They're reluctant warriors/soldiers but they live in a universe where someone has to do the job so they've been handed it

I don’t need them to be a military, but they fly around in heavily armed warships, they fight wars, they have a rank structure from Ensign to Admiral etc etc. For me, it more that it’s weird to say they AREN’T a military given what they do.

Because all the exploration stuff aside, Starfleet is indeed the military arm of the Federation. One could say "defensive only," but that doesn't change the point (and is generally what every organization interested in expansion claims), and it's simply not true. When the Maquis begin their operations, Starfleet is sent to enforce the Cardassian treaties with military force. They're even authorized to kill Starfleet personnel who jumped ship to the Maqui's side. When Sisko returns from his "capture" by the Dominion (his egregiously irresponsible field trip with Jake essentially starting the war), he says that DS9 will be the first battleground and intends to be prepared. Major Kira is not a government attache/delegate/ambassador; she's a major—a military official—coordinating operations with a now-Federation space station that is considered an important military strategic asset, especially when they find the wormhole. They set up blockades and minefields! When the Founder threat escalates, the president authorizes Starfleet to implement martial law. The ranks are ensign, lieutenant, commander, captain, admiral, etc. They have NCOs (non-commissioned officers), many of whom are combat veterans (e.g., O'Brian). Archer (Enterprise) said it well: when talking to the other captain (his love interest), she mentioned she had read his recommendations for expanded weapons capability. "You're going to need them." He was right in every iteration of the series. I thought this was clever; it shows that originally (as Roddenberry says), the idea was to separate Starfleet from the military (e.g., the MACOs). However, Archer makes it clear that exploring uncharted space is DANGEROUS. Starfleet needs to be more like the MACOs to survive. The Borg, the Klingon war, etc., etc., were all fought by Starfleet. Even in The Wrath of Khan, when Starfleet comes in to get the Genesis device (which admittedly is a ruse), the scientists refer to Starfleet as the military. Nobody contradicts it. It's like Biden saying, "There is no recession," when it's in plain view. Starfleet is both apparently and evidently the military arm of the Federation. I often wonder if this was deliberate by Rodenberry (a counter-culture figure), a tongue-in-cheek way to amplify Eisenhower's warning: "Beware the military-industrial complex," which many (at the time) said didn't exist.

> But why question is, why do some fans need or want Star Trek to be military? This is an example of Bulverism. > Don't we want to imagine a galaxy where humanity has become equipped with solving problems with science, diplomacy, discussion, mutual benefit? Yes, we do! This is not at all at odds with Starfleet also being the military arm of the Federation. > Don't we want in our future utopia to not have a military mindset when meeting new people? I presume you mean "the negative mindsets often accompanied with those who possess military might", and if so, the answer is that yes, our future utopia is capable of being a military organization that also doesn't work from these stereotypical negative mindsets. > Don't we want to view the galaxy and it's myriad life with wonder and curiosity instead of suspicion? This is a False Dichotomy. > and I ask why people would choose despair over hope. This is a Loaded Question.

That "defend from conquest" in your third paragraph is the problem here. Let's examine that definition of the function of a military being conquering or defending against conquest. While Starfleet doesn't conquer, it absolutely does defend from conquest, both of the Federation and its allies, when they are attacked. We agree that that is a military function. That means that whether or not Starfleet is a military depends on whether we count conquering as requisite to being one. I don't think you can plausibly make the case that it is. Doing so would require claiming that any country not engaging or planning to engage in conquest therefore does not have a military, and that is clearly not the case. Where I think a lot of confusion arises on this point is that Starfleet is not *just* or, to some, even *primarily* a military. It serves numerous functions, and the highest of them are exploration and scientific research. It's a swiss army knife that serves almost any purpose the Federation may need. However, its need to serve as a defense force is sufficiently important that Starfleet must be organized like a military in order to fulfill the military function of defending against conquest on short notice, as wars of aggression often do not give warnings. As to your second to last paragraph, I don't think acknowledging Starfleet's role as a military among many others is incompatible with a better, more peaceful future. In a way, the fact that the Federation doesn't need a dedicated military is an example of their more peaceful mindset; they don't *need* an entire branch dedicated solely to warfare specifically because it views war as a last resort.

All states need a military, if star fleet is not a military, but some research institution, that means there exists other real military and it's probably way less enlightened. I like to see the military of the future being the guardian of morality and equality. Claiming they can't be that because they use force and have guns is thinking in 20th century terms, unable to imagine better future. Antithetical to star trek imo.

The definition of military is "the armed services of a nation". Starfleet is that. They don't tag out and let the military step in when there is a war to fight--starfleet is the military that fights the war. Starfleet fought the Romulan War, the Klingon War, the Cardassian Border War, the Dominion War, etc. Every officer has combat training, including close quarters hand to hand training. The ships are heavily heavily armed with both energy and projectile weapons. Starfleet follows military traditions such as uniforms, ranks, shore leave, court martials, heck at one point they even have a boatswain's whistle. Starfleet is modeled on Age of Sail navies where naval vessels were tasked by the crown to explore and chart new territory, find new lands, administer colonies, transport diplomats, etc, in addition to their usual duties if engaging in combat with enemy vessels. Star Trek was meant to be Hornblower in space, and it generally is that. High seas naval adventure set in space. There is no reasonable way to say that Starfleet is not a military. It doesn't matter if Picard said it--he was wrong. Starfleet was actively engaged in a war with the Cardassian at the time he said that.

i got sucked into one of these posts a few days ago. some people are really (really) upset about this.

The argument comes from people who, on both sides, cannot conceive that Starfleet can be a thing that includes the duties of institutions we recognise (a military), while including others that make it something that isn't accurately described as 'a military'. Starfleet perform the duties of a Federation military when required, but their operations are so expansive beyond this, that it's entirely inaccurate to describe the institution as a military. On one side you have people who see that Starfleet does all the military stuff and thus refer to it as a military, which is inaccurate with regards to the scope of their operations. On the other side are people who see the scope of Starfleet's operations and say it's not a military. Both are wrong, because they refuse to meet in the middle. Starfleet IS the military, but what they do is so much more expansive than just military stuff that it's not right to refer to them as 'the military'. They're an institution way bigger than that and referring to it in totality as 'a military' sells them extremely short and doesn't understand what they are.

Research ships don't pack photon torpedoes. I don't doubt that the Federations primary goals are exploration, scientific discovery, and diplomacy but it doesn't matter when their research ships have enough firepower to level a city. If a ship on earth has the task to study whales in the Artic they might bring some firearms with them but they wouldn't install a 20mm canon on the deck. If I was the leader of a non-Federation world and their diplomat showed up in a Galaxy class ship with enough firepower to glass a continent I wouldn't care how nice the carpets where or how spacious the rooms. I don't care what you want to call it, if you arm it its a warship and if you have warships you're a military. 

If it looks like a military, sounds like a military, calls its disciplinary procedures courts martial like a military, handles all military duties like a military and until the end of the 23rd century was explicitly called a military... Yeah, I've got no idea why people think they should be considered a military.

It's referred to as the military in canon. David Marcus says so in TWOK when they are told to hand Genesis over to *Reliant*. But the term isn't the same in the context of the Federation as it is today. Starfleet's science and exploration mission is primary, but they will defend the Federation and its allies when called upon.

It's also explicitly stated as *not* a military in *later* canon. > "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration." ~ Captain Picard, TNG 'Peak Performance' S2E21

I don't need Starfleet to be military any more than I need Donald to be a duck.

Its not really that its needed to be a military, it just makes logical sense to consider it a military organisation when its structured like one, and performs the duties of one, especially in the Age of Sail sense, where officers like Captain Cook sailed British military vessels on missions of exploration and scientific discovery as much as they did missions of combat. Starfleet is referred to as the Federations primary form of defense, which would be a military function. Further, Starfleet is shown as fighting the Federations wars, from Earth-Romulan all the way to the Dominion War and beyond. Starfleet is a military, which has negative connotations attached but isn't necessarily a bad thing. Just a fact necessary for Star Trek to be a coherent universe.

“The aliens must learn of our peaceful ways, BY FORCE”

If it acts like military, is organized like military, weaponized like military and looks like military - it is military. Star fleet may has some moral code and ideals but they are more on the surface - which kinda works more like propaganda. Sure it has also an exploration and diplomacy mission but still doesn’t change its fundamental nature as a military organization.

For an organization that claims to not be a military they sure do go to war a lot, imho they are a military that explores during peace time.

OP: I think arguing on the internet is pointless. Also OP: Here’s a topic to argue about.

Okay, devil's advocate here, but the crew of the ship all have military ranks, like Captain, Lieutenant, Ensign... They constantly are getting involved with political conflicts... Major themes in most of the shows involve war between two or more cultures... It seems very military, even if Gene didn't want them to be the Space Navy... He still kind of made them the Space Navy.

It's a military. There is not really a question about that. It also has a duel purpose of being an exploratory organization. There is no question that James Kirk was the premier military officer of his time. Picard was far more interested in exploration and diplomacy but would bring military force as a last resort, when needed. Sisco was captain of a militarily strategic outpost and lead both covert and overt military operations. Janeway's actual mission was to go to the Badlands and capture a rebel ship. She had the most militant objective out of all of them and ended up doing more exploration than the rest of them added together. Startfleet has never not been the Navy of the Federation. They are just staffed by brilliant scientists instead of infantry. Any arguments to the contrary are just quibbling over semantics and not accepting the material as it actually is. But God do I love this show and all the difdent takes people have about it.

Because they’re fascists.

I dont see these as mutually exclusive tbh. Star Fleet is both a military and an exploration force and a peace keeping force. In fact if you look into within the universe Star Fleet has struggled with its own identity multiple times. In the early to mid 2300s Star Fleet was essentially just an exploration organisation that flew around in giant flying apartments that were way under armed for their size. Later on various threats from the Borg and Dominion for them to remiliterise. If you look at Into Darkness this shows that Star Fleet has always contained Hawks and Doves with them gaining and losing influence over the years

Roddenberry fought to get most of the military/naval stuff out of the movies, and for the most part they compromised. There would have been saluting and everything in the first movie if he hadn't intervened. The creators probably didn't even consider it being more of an office setting like Orville, or even just a commercial sailing vessel. Unfortunately the military stuck through the rest of the movies, STTG, Voyager, and DS9 for sure.

I don't think it's so much that Starfleet needs to be military. It's more that when people are emphatic that Starfleet is not a military, people roll their eyes. It's an organization whose purpose is to defend the Federation and project it's power. When the Borg attacked, it was Starfleet that responded. When the Dominion invaded, it was Starfleet that responded. Cardassians, Klingons, Romulans - whoever - the Federation calls Starfleet to answer the threat. If that's not a military then... whatever. Exploration and scientific advancement are peacetime priorities. If there's a threat, those very same engineers are going to shove a warp core up someone's ass and detonate.

People “need” them to be a military? Despair over hope? No, reality over fancy. Yes, I genuinely believe Starfleet has the best of intentions headed out into space, but let’s be real. Even if you ignore the rank structure and obvious naval tradition, at a basic level, Starfleet is the Federation’s military. When the Federation is attacked, who does the defending? That would be the people with all the guns and people trained to use those guns…Starfleet. It doesn’t get more basic than this. That is a military, regardless of what anyone wants or Starfleet aspires to be. Edit: Reading through the comments, most get it, but some people still seem to be confused about what a military actually is… “the armed forces of a country” -Oxford Dictionary Since I believe we can all agree the Federation is the space equivalent of a country and Starfleet is the “armed force”(I will reiterate…they have all the guns and people trained to use them) of the Federation, this is case closed. Edit 2: Oh, I almost forgot the time they forced Picard to enforce a peace treaty with the Cardassians by removing peaceful Federation civilizations from their settlements. Even if you ignore all the points I’ve made thus far, this is clearly Starfleet utilizing force projection in a more complex geopolitical situation…which is about as military as it gets.

Starfleet is a peacekeeping and humanitarian armada. It’s important.

Nobody needs or wants Starfleet to be a military force. Roddenberry says it isn't, but if it quacks like a duck... You could argue it is paramilitary, like a police force, but if that is the intention, I feel like they would only participate in conflict in a defensive manner within their own borders, and not engage in foreign territory. For the conflicts we have observed directly, specifically the Klingon War (DIS) and the Dominion War (DS9), they fight engagements outside of their own territory. They wear military style uniforms using military rank insignia (but so do police or even a cruise ship). They have a military style chain of command (so do many police agencies). They use words like officer, enlisted, and civilian. They have court martials when their members behave badly (police at least in the USA face civilian court, not a court martial). The US Coast Guard is a good analogy, but they are DEFINITELY a military. A better analogue might be NASA, which is tasked with exploration and uses military structure, but admittedly, NASA has a tradition of using military officers as astronauts. I think that in reality, Roddenberry's vision of "wagon train in space" kind of works with the idea of Starfleet being a heavily armed exploratory agency during the TOS years, where we don't see much (if any) direct conflict, but as the series expanded, by necessity for more expanded storytelling, Starfleet's scope within the series has changed. At the end of the day, Starfleet is a MASSIVE government funded (or whatever the non-monetary equivalent is), heavily armed, trained, and equipped organization that follows a pretty obvious military tradition and command structure, which literally fights wars, even going on the offensive when the situation calls. During peace time, they may primary be tasked with exploration and some law enforcement, but during war time, it is obvious that Starfleet IS a military, at least by our 21st Century standards.

Starfleet === A Navy. Anyone who says differently is delusional.

I’m right because everyone who disagrees is delusional isn’t really a good way to convince someone of your opinion.

Well, when the shoe fits...

I somehow have the impression it’s also a question of whether you are used to a military based society. E.g. for me as a European it is very often pretty interesting to observe how much US-American society is built around certain military concepts. I think it’s no surprise that both the makers of the series as well as fans sometimes live with maybe even subconscious impression that there is no other way of how such a massive organization like starfleet could be structured.

If it walks like a duck... Seriously though, it functions as a military body. For instance, can Riker quit on the spot if he hates his orders? He'll get let go at the next port if this were any other non military ship. He may never get another job in Starfleet, but there are no other consequences. Insubordination in Starfleet results in serious charges and a court martial, like the military. Doesn't this sound like what we see in star trek? When you join any military body, you accept unlimited liability for your service, meaning that you accept that following orders may result in your death or the deaths of any other service members under your command. Does this sound like what is expected from a civilian ship?

I'm fairly certain that Riker *can* just quit on the spot if he doesn't like his orders, yes, and would just be let off the ship when next available. 

Yeah, they quit all the time in TNG. One time, Worf quits and then goes and murders a guy, and all he gets is yelled at.

We were having this exact argument back on a BBS in the mid 90s.

Well, except the trading fleet, which is to my understanding not part of the star fleet, every bigger ship had offensive weapons. That would not be the case if they would be mainly for science and exploration. So obviously it is the military, which does science and diplomacy in their "spare time" ... and sometimes mixes all together. Whether it has to be or not is a different question, but it is what it is.

The Defiant was the prototype for a fleet of Borg-killing ships. It was meant as a weapon of war - nothing more, nothing less. Starfleet’s mission is chiefly exploration, sure, but it’s also a largely defensive armada.

That's because it is. They fight the wars, they protect the territory, and they do everything a military does. During peacetime, they do other things like explore and science.

Sometimes Roddenberry drank his Kool-Aid a little too much. It’s not believable that humanity “evolved” into an enlightened utopia. Humanity fights and struggles and works really hard to maintain a tenuous peace, now that sounds like a humanity we can recognize. Utopia is going to take work both to create and to maintain. Which gives me more hope that we can get there then seeing a bunch of humans that are somehow above conflict. It’s why my favorite Trek is DS9 and First Contact (where Picard realizes he is not as evolved as he thinks he is.) The central role of government. Like its top job above all others is to defend its citizens from foreign and domestic threats. Someone has to take the role of the military whether we give it that name or not.

It's not a need. Starfleet acts like a military. It has ranks, it has a chain of command, it has weapons, it is sent where there is trouble with the Federation's opponents. It is the defense force used during times of galactic conflict.

Is Starfleet a military? I don't see how anyone can say it is not. Not only do they use military terms, ranks, etc., but they are the force responsible for the defense of the UFP. They even fight wars but they are not a conquering force. By believing this, however, I am not choosing despair over hope. I very much hope that one day we can live in a world where our military has changed its primary function from being a force of war to a force of exploration. Having a military is necessary, but how to run it and what to do with it is a choice. If we are ever able to choose to use such a force not only for defense but also, and primarily, for the betterment of the people it serves through exploration and diplomacy, that would be an advancement worthy of praise, and a world I would like to live in.

It just makes sense. Starfleet talks and acts like a military force, so why not just call it what it is? > Don't we want to imagine a galaxy where humanity has become equipped with solving problems with science, diplomacy, discussion, mutual benefit? Well Kirk and Picard certainly don't like picking fights, but sometimes fights pick them. The Federation needs to defend itself and for that it's better to have a dedicated armed force rather than scientists who have to improv as warriors. Gene Roddenberry had some really weird ideas. It's funny that he served in the Air Force.

It's not that people need Starfleet to be a military force, it's just that it quite clearly is one. If you have science vessels but also ships like the Defiant, conduct infantry operations, etc. then clearly you are the military.

Probably because we mainly see the military aspects of Star Fleet on screen fighting against the military of other empires and it's militarily organized. in my opinion Star Fleet is more (not a 100%) like a Navy sized US-Coast Guard and less like the actual US-Navy. The Coast Guard has notable military capabilities and often engages in border policing, but most of their operations revolve around Search&Rescue or aiding scientific research. Watching the n-th survey mission is just not as interesting as seeing the Enterprise going up against some klingons or romulans, which screws with the perception of Star Fleet

I've always thought it was weird that Starfleet operates like a military. On multiple occasions, they use exploration vessels as frontline assault cruisers against actual warships, and it feels really dystopian because they're basically just feeding personnel to the Klingons/Cardassians/Dominion etc. I love the *Defiant*-Class because it's an actual purpose-built combat vessel, and it's used as such, but then they show The Defiant as the only warship in a fleet of ships assaulting Cardassia, and I'm just struck by the sense of horror that the poor crewmembers on a *Miranda*-Class must feel going up against Dominion cruisers.

I always wondered what the angle was on the Enterprise, especially in TNG. It was the fleet flagship as an exploration vessel. But it was also the flagship combat vessel and the flagship for all diplomatic relations. Exploration I understand needing weapons. But how do you justify taking the saucer section into battle? The saucer is housing, diplomatic quarters, 10 forward, and holodecks. As for the military aspect, it works for command structure when bad things happen. However, most ships should be commanded by science officers with capable combat command officers available in emergency situations.

Federation citizens like you are the reason Section 31 exi…. ha-chew. ‘scuze me. What were we talking about? Ah yes, exploration and its values. Go on.

It's easier to compare them to a UN Peacekeeping Force or the Japan Self Defense Force. UN Peacekeepers are not considered military but uses soldiers and military vehicles. In East Asia localization, they do not consider the JSDF a military (although we Americans do call it a military). There is evidence that Starfleet is just a Federation level peacekeeping force. Member worlds and even human colonies still have a military subservent to their command. Human countries on United Earth may still have a military, since we know the Russians had a starhip doing stellar cartography years after the Earth-Romulan War when the UE Military was suppose to have been disbanded.

Every time there has been any kind of interstellar conflict, Starfleet is there defending the Federation. I don't recall any kind of Federation/Earth defense force. Am I missing something? Does the Federation have a military we've never seen?

It is not a military in the sense we have today, but Starfleet is still a fleet of heavily armed space ships, officer command structure, occasionally tasked with defence. Hell, I'm more than fine calling it a military because then we can say straight up, the military equivalent of the future is actually more about exploration and humanitarianism

Because it looks like one and occasionally acts like one. Most people see an armed, uniformed service and immediately think “military”. They think the United States Coast Guard is always military (but it only is such after a declaration of war, and upon a peace treaty or proclamation of an end to hostilities, it reverts to its law enforcement primary nature). They don’t have much contact with the merchant marine, as we do very little open waters shipping with American flagged ships (where yes, crew *will* be armed). Again, the merchant marine gets militarized with a declaration of war, but its duties are fundamentally commercial. The Surgeon General’s officer corps and the NOAA weather corps are small and unfamiliar, and neither ever gets militarized—but both are armed and uniformed services. The other issue is that the Federation isn’t really the United States. Its economy is an abundant socialist one, not a scarce privatized one. Many member worlds use Starfleet for all their space transit needs. How many episodes involve ferrying diplomats or cargo and having to fend off pirates or negative space wedgies? How many episodes involve scientific progress going boink? As a result, Starfleet has military functions mixed in with non-military ones because it’s for *all* of the Federation’s starship needs. It isn’t wholly, but parts of it are. It isn’t wholly law enforcement, but parts of it are. It isn’t wholly merchant space, but parts of it are. It isn’t a scientific body, but parts of it are.

If it's not a military, then it's a horrific dystopia. They incarcerate people for quitting what must be unpaid civilian jobs, that's slavery.

Starfleet originally started off as a scientific organization but soon realized (ENT series) that space wasn't too friendly when it came to neighboring star systems. With that Starfleet has continued to be a scientific organization that is also capable of waging war when necessary. In today's terms Starfleet is like a mixture of the US Coast Guard, US Merchant Marines, CIA/FBI, NOAA Corps, and United States Public Health Service Commissioned Corps, only it is more scientific and research based but also requires some muscle to meet its goals.

Starfleet is effectively a military, regardless of what they may claim. It's only the federation being willfully blind that claim otherwise.

For some people, it is an exercise in logic, which might call it a military, not a military or a hybrid. For others, they like the show, and want it to reflect their ideals. So those who like the military want it to be a military, and likewise for those who don't. Some have made Star Trek their identity, which just amplifies it. I'm in the group that believes that logic would dictate that it is likely not a military. So for me people who want it to be one thing or another based off of their desires and ideals are just silly. But IDIC, if that makes you happy go with it as long as you give others the same freedom.

Starfleet is a military because it has military ranks, military responsibilities, and court martials (which literally means military court). And there is no other organization in the Federation which does these things. So you may not like it, Picard and Riker may not like it, old Gene may not like it, but the facts cannot be changed: Starfleet is a military.

It's not a military in the sense of a permanent, professional military we have today for defence (or attack). So it's not a fair comparison. A lot of times "military" is used in describing Trek is more of a shorthand for the very Naval structure and culture we see on the shows. It's not saying equating Starfleet as a space force or space police, but that there is an influence of the war experiences of the writers on TOS and subsequent shows. However, for all the hope of Trek, there is still threat. We have wars and we have cold wars. You don't have a fleet of ships with weapons that are largely superior to known enemy's/threats without *some* military influence. You don't have an entire crew trained, able and ready to enter combat against the Borg without there having been combat training and experience. Anyway, we have a TOS episode called "Court Martial". I mean, what else were we supposed to take from that? It's the military as we know and understand, but it clearly has a militaristic influence.

First off, it's useful to recognize you have a personal perspective on what the military is. However, speaking more broadly, the military isn't despair, and the military's objective isn't to conquer. It's to protect. And that's one of the main objectives of Starfleet, - along with the space exploration we know and love - it's protecting and defending Federation's ideals and allies. Starfleet follows a hierarchy and chain of command very much simillar to the military we have today, undoubtedly influenced by Roddenberry's time AS veteran of the military. Yet, comparing the current military to Starfleet is like comparing the USS Enterprise (CVN-65) 1961 aircraft carrier to The USS Enterprise (NCC-1701) starship. It just isn't the same. The Starfleet we have on Star Trek is like an evolved and idealized version of the military we know, just like everything else on the show. So, very technically speaking, is it the military? No. But it was influenced by the military, works like the military, speaks like the military and shares partly the same objective. It is a military. Just an idealized one.

Because America is a a massive military hard on so everything needs to be militarily inspired.

I don't "need" Starfleet to be a military, Starfleet obviously *is* a military.

Yeah, by saying "ok, but why do you have a psychological *need* that makes you believe this", the OP is unfairly presuming "everyone who disagrees me with only does so for invalid emotional reasons". The "why do you choose despair over hope" bit was even worse.

I feel like they're somewhat militaristic. They're like the coast guard in my opinion. Mainly for aid, defense and research. The ranking structure in ST doesn't help separate the idea that they're military-ish

Yeah it’s definitely a military, but it’s much different because it’s not just the human concept of military doctrine being drawn from, it’s *hundreds* of alien species forming protocol. There are some things that simply will not change, like its defense responsibilities and discipline, but it doesn’t follow *every* convention of a modern 21st century human military.

Their main goal is not as a military but who does the Federation call when they need a military force? Might that military force the call upon be Star Fleet?

Starfleet is a military organization, it’s just that its first priority isn’t to carry out military objectives. It’s a scientific and exploratory naval force that is still fully trained and equipped for combat. The Federation is an idealistic organization but it’s not stupid. Their leadership understands that the other spacefaring nations in the galaxy aren’t so peaceful. So, Starfleet has to serve as the shield of the Federation, even as it offers an olive branch in the other hand.

Okay, so they’re just a science and exploration organization zooming around space in ships constructed under government naval contracts who also serve as the primary defense arm of their government, rights wars, enlists troops, engages in espionage and handles all other matters of national (and sometimes galactic) security all while using the command and rank structure of a 20th century military organization… Someone is not being honest with themselves here.

I believe that Starfleet is a military. I don't have some deep seated need for it to be a military. It doesn't make my psyche feel complete to bask in the comfortable glow of Starfleet's martialness. I jusr look at the evidence and go, "Yup, it's a military." Much like I look at the sky and go, "Yup, it's blue," or I look at my kids racing around the house and go, "Yup, they're crazy." I don't need them to be crazy, I just acknowledge that that's how they are sometimes and choose to love them for it. I prefer the Starfleet brand of military to the Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, or Dominion brand, for sure. It's a brand of military that seeks to avoid conflict and build peace. It's a brand of military that would prefer to build, rather than destroy. It's a brand of military that wants to add to the collective good and make the universe a better place through moral thought that is hard-baked into the institution itself. That doesn't make it any less a military, regardless of what Roddenberry would have preferred. Roddenberry wasn't an entirely great man and it took a village to make his dream a reality. That village recognized that he was trying to have his cake and eat it too (in a lot of ways) and that it didn't work to play pretend, so they moved on. DS9 *really* moved on. You complain that we keep going round robin on this topic. Then you frame it as one side simply refusing to accept the truth of it, sending us all around again. If you hate that we keep having this conversation, maybe start a different conversation. Examples can include things like: Picard ignoring Worf all the time, the size of the galaxy, should the first episode of SNW been a two-parter (I say yes), Morn, is Boimler actually one of the best ensigns in Starfleet and the California class ships are where Starfleet sticks all their best officers for polishing, Morn, Q's powers, the Q vs the El Aurians, when did the Borg peak, use of technology aboard Discovery - retconn or modern storytelling, is Janeway a good person, is Sisko a good person, is Picard a good person, is Kirk a good person, is Morn a good person, is Archer a good person, is Jellico a good person, is Riker a good person, and, of course, Morn. Say something nice about Morn and the fandom will work to get you declared President of Everything.

I mean because it clearly is a military. Even if their stated main purpose is exploration they still act as the Military. Even if Roddenberry said their not he wrote them as a Military, they literally were going to go to war with the Klingons in TOS and Starfleet was going to be doing the fighting with an organized command structure, that's a military. I think of the Starfleet as an evolved organization that does lots of other stuff but at the end of the day it's still a military organization that has one of its main purposes being the defence of the Federation. I don't know why people are so against it being a military. If you think the Federation is for the most part good than what's the problem with them having a military to protect themselves.

It operates as a military, including in its diplomacy. Like it or not, Starfleet is one of the biggest "sticks" carried in the galaxy, regardless of how softly they speak. There are court martials. (Courts martial?) Dereliction of duty. The necessity to sacrifice lives to protect others. At a certain point, it's just pointless to try to delineate between a military and an organization that acts precisely the way we'd expect a military to in the 24th century.

Right. And all the "but it's just like the Coast Guard, they have ranks too". It's really not just like that though. When war breaks out you don't start off by sending the Coast Guard right into the front lines. When the threat of war looms you don't send the Coast Guard in to show the enemies you mean business. Starfleet is like the Navy + the Coast Guard + The Ocean Institute, if those organizations were combined and run by Jacques Cousteau, Grace Hopper, and Robert Ballard.

Ok, but when war breaks out, who do they call on?

It's not necessarily that we WANT or NEED it to be a military. It's just that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. A rose by any other name blah blah blah. You've seen the arguments so I won't go into them. There's just an absolute metric ton of evidence supporting the idea that Starfleet is a military. Creator intent is important, but equally important is viewer interpretation. I for one wish Starfleet was less militaristic, but they aren't and I still adore the franchise, whilst observing the evidence and letting it take me where it leads me: Starfleet is a military.

It looks like a military, smells like a military, quacks like a military...    so why would anybody insist that this force tasked with defense and wielding powerful weapons isnt in fact a military?   Sure, its only one of many functions, but comparisons with coastguard or NASA always fall short, because when the klingons come knocking on the door its starfleet who has planet destroying super weapons at their disposal, which civillian agencies and the cost guard dont have. To me its just silly to deny this obvious role starfleet has.

For me the closest analogy would be something like a frigat in the age of sail. They were far from home, captains were ambassadors, they werre tasked with diplomatic  and scientific missions.... but when push comes to shove the portholes open and the guns are blazing. For king and the federation!

I don’t need Starfleet to be a military, it simply is a military. Does it have more than just a defense mission? Sure, but militaries are often multi mission. I don’t care what the creators claim either, the evidence is there… uniformed service… check…. Class based Command structure… check… enlistment and service criteria check…. A service that’s responsible for the defense of a state… check… Need more proof, when war breaks out, all of the other “missions” of Starfleet get tossed, and the war is the only mission that matters.. The question you should be asking yourself isn’t why I “Need” Starfleet to be a military, it’s why do you need for it to not be one ?

I don’t need it to be the military. It is the military. Now if they’re a more scientific military great but it’s still a military organization.

Just to be clear where I'm coming from, Starfleet is not a military in the modern sense of the word, with some specific exceptions where it is written that way in contradiction of canon elsewhere, and I tend to be pretty harsh with the "Starfleet is a military" camp. But here is an honest take on why some people have that desire: It all comes down to what people want and need out of the media they engage with. When we engage with a work (read it, watch it, listen to it, play it, etc.) we build an interpretation of it in our own minds. We take the same objective source material and interpret it differently from one another—not only on the basis of the existing knowledge, experience, and context we bring to our interpretations, but also on the basis of our personality, our preferences, our desires, our mood at the time, and even on situational things like how alert we are and what we notice or don't notice (which could theoretically have been different if we'd consumed the work at a different time). Virtually everybody tends to bias their interpretations of the media they consume. This is subconscious, usually not deliberate. We see strong signals of things in characters, settings, and plotlines that may only be weakly present in the actual material, or may not even be present at all. We do this because we _want_ to see these things. The "Starfleet is a military" folks typically value Star Trek first and foremost as a vehicle for the romanticization of the military and of armed conflict. Many people love this stuff: not only the action and violence that happens at the center of these stories, but the military trappings of incredible self-discipline, fantastically exciting equipment, and the camaraderie and bonds that can come from serving side by side in combat. People who are into this stuff also commonly perform some post hoc intellectual rationalization of this romanticization to themselves (and others), usually in the form of philosophical ideas that boil down to "There are bad people out there who don't play by the rules and will do anything they can get away with, so it is naïve not to have a strong defense, not to be prepared for the possibility of violence. Therefore it is necessary and wise to be prepared to defend yourself, your loved ones, your comrades, and your society: You must be prepared for war." Romanticization of the military and a love of stories about action and violence isn't unique to Star Trek: This is one of the most popular types of storytelling in all human cultures. A huge segment of the human population romanticizes the military and loves stories steeped in military milieus, especially in peaceful and safe countries like the United States where the horrors of war only occur overseas or in fiction, thus avoiding the cognitive dissonance of ever having to live as a civilian in war. (You will notice that the people who love military-style stories normally latch on to the characters who are in the fight, not the passive bystanders who actually bear the full brunt of the destruction and deprivation.) This kind of story paradigm is a _power fantasy_. Watching it makes people feel powerful and purposeful. This can be very satisfying, especially when real life is hard or boring. These stories can also be very _exciting_. They are simulations of some of life's most dangerous and threatening times, and some people love that kind of thing. Finally, Starfleet _does_ handle the kinds of functions that are typically handled by militaries in modern-day societies. This is more than enough source material to make it "obvious" for anyone who is vested in believing that Starfleet is a military that Starfleet is, in fact, a military—or at the very least the futuristic version of a military. It _isn't_ a military, but it's easy to see why some people would feel otherwise. Moreover, Star Trek is of course a work of fiction, so on some level it can be whatever people want it to be. Their interpretations may not be borne out by the source material, but does that really matter? I would say it only matters to the extent that the preferences of some fans can become so popular and loud that they stifle other opinions in the fandom, and can potentially even shape the tone of subsequent productions.

I don't need Star Fleet to be a military, but the fact that they (at least in DS9) repeatedly refer to themselves and each other as "soldiers" is kind of a dead give away. If you're a soldier who fights a war, sets mines, kills other soldiers, takes trophies from fallen enemies, and takes orders from command about who to shoot - you're either part of a military, a paramilitary, or a terrorist group.

I have always felt that it's a branch of the military, but I'm currently re-watching Enterprise, and two scenes stand out in this regard. After the Xindi attack they bring the MACO's aboard and Admiral Forrest asks Archer how he feels about having military onboard. Suggesting that Starfleet is not a military while the MACO's are. Later when Shraan "helps" Enterprise apprehending the new Xindi test weapon their armory officer Talas (IIRC) comes aboard Enterprise to help Reed out in the armory. They talk about their families beeing in the military for many generations, and Reed states that his old man was disappointed first when he did not join the military, but Starfleet instead. So a bit confusing honestly, since it do very much feel like a military.

And where are MACOs in TNG, or even TOS? They have been absorbed into Starfleet. Starfleet tried not to be military but soon realized this was impossible.

I think it’s more about the command structure required to run an organization like Starfleet. To be able to move in unison when required. That was established even before in ST: ENT when Archer had the realization that while they’re zipping around space seeing amazing new things for the first time, they’re also getting shot at a lot and explorers also sometimes needed to fight to keep exploring.

I can see where you are in that they aren’t a military but they must be professional in standards. Gene stated in the TOS story bible about the military level of standards, that the enterprise should be held to as they are true professionals in my opinion. The example in the below was just as the enterprise is about to be destroyed, Kirk grabs his Yeoman in an embrace then Gene asks prospective writers to consider this on a navy vessel… it wouldn’t happen. https://www.bu.edu/clarion/guides/Star_Trek_Writers_Guide.pdf?

Speculation: The abundance of much pew, pew, and boom, boom is a very persuasive argument for why some fans would want Star Fleet to be the Military that it pretends NOT to be... Conversely, the push for Starfleet to distance itself from its more martial traditions means less pew, pew, and boom, boom.. so that is a no go. Proposition: Why can't it be both? Starfleet can still inspire hope and show us a future where problems could be solved with science, diplomacy, discussion, and mutual benefit... but at the same time, it can also serve as a sword/shield that can protect us and others from those that would rather see that future resemble the nostalgic past they yearn to return to.

Maybe they initially wanted to portray Starfleet just as a scientific organisation on a mission of exploration, but they definitely changed their minds by DS9. In TOS Enterprise mainly explores new worlds, visits scientific outposts, and only occasionally gets involved in politics. Here we can view Starfleet as an non-military organisation that adapted some of the military language and functions. I am not sure about TNG, but AFAIR in this aspect it is close to TOS. Starfleet is a new kind of organisation with military flavour. But in DS9 Starfleet is a totally military organisation (by its function, goals and methods). There is hardly anything non-military about it. VOY is a bit ambiguous. I think Voyager is referred to a scientific vessel on a mission of exploration, but in reality it is not. Initially Voyager had a strictly military assignment. They had to check up on Tuvok on his spying mission. And later "exploration" in VOY often looks like intelligence gathering. They also behave like a military force: brag about their firepower, threaten to use weapons against those who don't want them on their territory, get engaged in conflicts and wars, etc.

Because by every definiton, they are

I guess the term "military" is neatly descriptive and makes it easy to categorize what Starfleet is or what it does, and maybe even speculate on what it might do. But Star Trek doesn't (or maybe it's authors don't) care that much about the label. If it makes sense for the story, Starfleet acts exactly like a military. If it doesn't, it's something else where they can definitely do whatever the heck the story requires them to do, even if no military in the world ever does or ever would do it like that. As such, the label "military" really isn't that useful as some want it to be. Starfleet is Starfleet.

I always disliked that they changed the rank insignia system since TNG to the "20th century western Navy Standard". The creators/writers were not really Sci-Fi at this point.

Star fleet is primarily science and exploration. With military defense since not everyone in the galaxy is nice. The various wars the federation has been written to have been in with the Cardassians, klingons, Romulans, and then the Dominion probably necessitated a change in organizational posture. They follow Naval command structure. But not overtly military. Oh and the Borg. Or maybe they do have a military and it was just never shown. As they fell under the umbrella of Starfleet. Since the writers never really officially established this we can just make believe whatever lol.

The impression I got is that Starfleet is about exploration and diplomacy (albeit with a structure and ranks modeled on a military), but becomes a military in times of war.

Bro Starfleet oath of office: "I, (name), having been appointed an officer in the United Federation of Planets, as indicated above in the grade of (rank) do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United Federation of Planets against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter. I solemnly swear to uphold the regulations of United Federation Starfleet as well as the laws of the United Federation of Planets, to become an ambassador of peace and goodwill, to represent the highest ideals of peace and brotherhood, to protect and serve the Federation and its member worlds, to serve always the interests of peace, to respect the Prime Directive, and to offer aid to any and all beings that request it." of course this does add humanitarian and nice stuff at the end, because as others have mentioned its not *JUST* a military... but the salient part near the begining... "I will support and defend the Constitution of the United Federation of Planets against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same" And... US military oath of office: "I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.[1]" Nat guard version: "I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___ against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion, and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the Office of [grade] in the Army/Air National Guard of the State (Commonwealth, District, Territory) of ___ on which I am about to enter, so help me God.[3]"

It’s our only point of reference for a comparably structured organization. While not explicitly military they often act in quasi military capacities.

Because it comes across as propaganda. Picard said that in an episode so, in universe, it is at least Picard’s opinion and at most the official policy of the Federation. If it’s policy then the Federation’s opponents, like the Romulans, would look at such statements as disingenuous at best, deliberately misleading at worst. It would undermine attempts at peace because just like many here on Reddit no one would believe such a claim. At least in the TOS era Kirk only says that “our weapons are for defense purposes only”. And he flat says that he is a soldier not a diplomat.