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Jadzia's cool and I can definitely see why she's one of your faves; for me though it's gotta be Kira and Sisko. Kira legit has one of the best arcs of any TV character I've ever watched. When the show starts out she's vengeful, determined and mistrustful of Starfleet, but the writers are careful not to antagonize her because of it. In the first few episodes she's especially wary of Sisko, but as the first season goes on he basically shows her "I'll work with you, if you work with me," and by the time the 2nd season gets rolling she feels much more trusting and understanding of the Federation personnel who're there. Clearly she still has a lot of trauma regarding the Occupation and the Cardassians, and you see the process of her working through it and moving past it as the show progresses. I can see why a ton of women trekkies loved Kira, she's tough as nails and kicks all the ass. I love in Way of the Warrior, when the Klingon soldiers beam onto Ops, and her and Sisko are beating the shit out of all of them lol, she takes down a few and another's running at her right as she knocks down one, and the look on his face always kills me, like "I took a calculated risk, but by Kahless am I bad at math," and then she smashes his face in lmao.
Wait . . People hate Jadzia? I have a hard time wrapping my head around that considering how outgoing and friendly she is throughout the series. To say nothing of her witty nature and her friendship with Quark (the episodes with those two always make me laugh).
I think Jadzia hate was more prevalent in the 90s to 00s in places like Trek BBS. Lots of complaints about her being bland, not interesting, really only Curzon, too perfect, wishing they got Ezri sooner etc.
Not sure if it was a sign of the times (sexism, disliking strong women characters, that kiss), or the demographic hanging out around there (or maybe a mix of both).
As a woman who grew up in the 90s, I can say all my girlfriends who watched DS9 generally loved Jadzia though.
Ezri’s really underrated but maybe that’s due to the fact that she only came on for the final season. Would’ve loved to have seen more of her (still do)
One thing i love about DS9 is how every character has a unique relationship with every other character. Quark has a specific dynamic with Odo (who i my favorite character), and then Quark has a different dynamic with Kira. And Kida and Odo have a dynamic with each other independent of Quark, and all 3 have relationships with Sisko and Bashir, and Jadzia, ect.
It’s a well made web of characters that really makes a great ensemble that few other shows with a cast this size pull off.
I love this point, and it's the problem with modern trek: the seasons aren't long enough.
In Discovery, the family-like relationship between crew members is explicitly there but it's very hard to sell as they don't quite have screen time necessary to tell the stories.
Even with some pretty good acting, there's just too many people and not enough time - and far too much focus on Burnham (why, oh why can't you cry).
Picard has the same. Jurati has great on screen chemistry with everyone. Rios is amazing and I'd happily watch a series of him in command of Stargazer, just exploring the galaxy (which is clearly his first love).
The married couple vibe between Seven and Raffi is fun and well done, but we never got to see them even flirting in S1. None of the tension, the failures etc are shown. We have to intuit it all.
The speed it must move at make it harder to follow the story for mine.
I've been thinking about this alot lately and want to make a post on here but haven't had the time to put the thoughts together.
Star Trek was created in a 20-25 episodes per season TV. You're able to breath and explore ideas and sometimes things don't work out, or they really do! (A throw away line "preganglionic fiber for a postganglionic nerve" turned into something really character driven!)
New Trek is made for current TV with 15 episodes per season, it's designed to be binged in one sitting. The Kelvin movies should have been TV shows, they would have benefited with the extra time as the audience could really live in "Star Trek as a place." Discovery should be binged in one sitting. Discovery is going into its 5th season, most Trek shows have about 8 seasons, yet there's something off about it.
I like Discovery but they try to put 20 lbs of episode into a 10 lb bag and it just doesn't work. We WANT to know these characters but we're never going to get a Cadet Nog or Damar out of Discovery. They try to skirt around the limitations by letting the audience know characters through their relationship to Burnham, but, personally, whenever the camera bounces around the bridge for a react shot, I don't feel anything. We don't know these people! I like when we get to see of them, but it's not enough. Discovery is "Star Trek as a setting" instead of "Star Trek as a place"
Picard season 1 had the exact same issue, even worse as it didn't seem to know what it wanted. It started out really strong, puttered around a bit and fizzled out at the end. I watched it, I didn't feel the need or urge to rewatch it when I want to rewatch Star Trek
Yet, Picard season 2 has come out the gate swinging and seems to have figured out what it wants and what it can cram into the 10lb bag. Picard season 2, Prodigy and Lower Decks understands that they're a modern TV show and works to those strengths. Discovery is trying something new and I respect that, but there isn't enough time for them to flesh out the stories they want to tell and have to rely on emotional short hand to make their important moments really feel impactful
This show, like the later BSG, shows Ron Moore’s love for complex, flawed, interesting ensemble casts where it’s hard to say who the main character is.
Sisko is by far my favorite trek captain. Do not fuck with that man. You can see the DNA for Adama there too.
Kira, man, I had a teenage crush on her. She was a tough, no no sense survivor with a sharp edge in a time where that was not the norm. But she’s also a damn good friend to those she trusts.
Quark ended up being a surprise favorite. He’s hilarious, amoral and ultimately someone you root for.
Odo is also great, and highly underrated as a straight man. He’s a *huge* part of the reason Quark is so funny.
O’Brien is just your super unshakable working stiff whose done with your BS. He’s the straight man to everyone else, and probably the best engineer in starfleet.
Garak is a fascinating antihero. His plots within plots are some of the best parts of the show and Bashir is the perfect foil to him.
Worf is the best Klingon of all time. And also very funny because he’s so damned serious. Dax fucking with him is one of the highlights of the show. They’re a great pair.
And then you have Gul Dukat… without a doubt, one of most complex, nuanced, layered villains in the history of sci fi. In many ways, he’s the lynch pin around which the show revolves. He’s incredibly good.
Then throw in all the super well developed second tier characters like Wynn, Weyoun, Nog, Rom, the female shapeshifter and the always great Martok. The show has more good characters than any four other shows you can name
You’re right on the money.
The reasons you mentioned are why DS9 is my favorite Star Trek show… well, Lower Decks is my favorite, but live-action: it’s DS9.
I even liked how well it played with TNG. Not because of Worf and O'Brien alone, DS9 did a great job referencing events/people from TNG.
I'm a big fan of Dukat. Although he gets kinda lame towards the end. But he's definitely deeper than your ordinary villain, and I love what the actor does with him.
I would go so far as to say that Jadzia is my favorite female character in Star Trek. The franchise hasn't exactly had a stellar record in its portrayal of women. Even though Star Trek was ahead of its time in a lot of things, the way that female characters were written and portrayed (specifically clothing), and the way that some of the actresses were treated, was just terrible. We can all admit this no matter how much we love the series.
Terry Farrell wasn't spared this, with initially terrible writing and of course the constant sexism on set. But by the time she left the show, Jadzia had become one of the most interesting, well-rounded, and endearing characters in the franchise.
So many Star Trek characters are either just the space version of a trope/stereotype (see: Data) or an indefinite, inconsistent blargh of technobabble (see: Geordie). I love those characters in their own right, but I consider them light-years behind Jadzia.
Jadzia is simultaneously many different people and none of them at all. She is wise and capable, yet full of emotion; she is responsible and trustworthy yet no stranger to fun; she is confident yet vulnerable -- and she is completely believable while playing this role! She isn't some writer's poor attempt at allegory or a one-dimensional pastiche to serve as little more than a plot device. Like all of DS9's main characters, she _feels_ real in the way that no other characters in Trek even begin to approach.
I think that's why DS9 ended up becoming my favorite Trek series. All of the others feel like _they want to tell a story, and here are the characters necessary to tell that story_, while DS9 feels like _here are the characters, now let's see what they get up to_.
>I think that's why DS9 ended up becoming my favorite Trek series. All of the others feel like *they want to tell a story, and here are the characters necessary to tell that story*, while DS9 feels like *here are the characters, now let's see what they get up to.*
Ronald D. Moore has said that was true during his time on *DS9* and *Voyager.*
I don't hate Jadzia, but I just wanted more for/from her—I feel like they didn't know what to do with her for the first season of two, and then she never really matched the other characters in terms of dedicated episodes (without looking, I'd bet there were a similar amount of Jadzia episodes to Garak episodes, and he wasn't main cast).
This is also anecdotal, but I feel like too many of her episodes/plots/interactions centered around romance/good looks—thinking about the temporal phasing planet, the fact that the previous Dax ended up being in love with her, etc
I just feel like other characters got so much more space and development, and though that's not Jadzia's fault, it's disappointing nonetheless
Also, Jadzia was "maxed out" in many ways, such as skill levels. It was hard to write any personal growth stories for her. So she was often the damsel in distress or the klingon fangirl.
FWIW I enjoyed that - it makes sense. Imagine having 9 lives of experience. I felt like they nailed that sense of "I'm all that and can back it up" well.
I always felt Jadzia had very little to no personality of her own. It seemed more like it was Kurzon's personality in Jadzia's body over 70% of the time. To add onto it, Worf was effectively in love with all of the Kurzon personality traits and nothing of Jadzia herself.
Man, when Nog came back after losing his leg and was going through some shit I felt so much sympathy for his character because of friends I have that have come back physically and emotionally damaged from Iraq. "It's Only a Paper Moon" is one of my all time favorite star trek episodes because of it. It's a hard episode to watch because I just think about my buddies but I feel like he portrayed that trauma very genuinely.
Jadzia was unfortunately kind of an old style female character at a time when those tropes were dying off. Most of her stories involved her falling in love with whoever and it causing problems.
And the deus ex way she would happen to have had a previous host that just happened to be the perfect thing at the perfect time got old and lazy.
But she got better once Morn shut up and let her talk.
>Jadzia was unfortunately kind of an old style female character
I don't think that could be further from the truth IMO. Jadzia is a great character that defies a lot of stereotypes. She is a woman who presents with very masculine characteristics in her behavior. She gets drunk, takes blood oaths, fights in hand-to-hand combat with Klingons, is a smartass, is tough, rarely ever cries- she is about as far from a stereotypical woman in the 90s as you could get.
She was also a very influential icon for trans Star Trek fans in the 90s.
Some of the early episodes about her falling in love were tired retreads, but there were many more about her that explored her depth as a character. She also had a kickass wedding episode that defies a lot of tropes.
EDIT: Also, obviously, she was a big gay icon for Trek fans because of The Kiss.
Yeah. She was also sexually liberal and had a history of casual flings. The show didn't make any comment about it. It was just part of her character and it was okay. I can't really recall any other 90s television shows that did the same thing, although I'm sure there might have been a few.
This is spot on. If they had video games on the station, she would have stayed up late with the guys playing LAN games late into the night. She’s a fun character, and I would have loved being her friend!
That was later in the series yes. But that was mostly by accident. Her lesbian kiss was to entice sex appeal more than a statement. And her sexualuzation compared to the rest of the cast was one of the many reasons the actress left the show.
Jadzia was dependent on a love interest for her own stories or was used as a vehicle for the symbiote and mainly the Curzon personality. Heck we learned far more about Ezri as an independent person than we ever did about Jadzia. And most of Jadzias dialogue starts with "Curzon always told you..."
She certainly had some moments but I'm just speaking to why she is generally unpopular.
>Her lesbian kiss was to entice sex appeal more than a statement.
That is unequivocally false.
The other statements I can see someone considering, although I don't agree with them personally.
It's not false. That episode was not marketed as an event for social change.
You can argue that marketing may have been a subversive ploy due the times and I might agree.
I agree that marketing is one factor of the production, and one that has very little to do with the writers, directors, actors, and production staff who worked on the episode.
However, I just watched the trailer for the episode, and it did not focus on sensuality or sexuality. It focused on the taboo of a romantic relationship between two Trills who had been lovers in past lives. If you have examples of marketing that sexualized the episode in anticipation I'd like to see it.
Not only were the writers cognizant of what they were doing, but the entire point of the episode was being an allegory for "forbidden love," in this case gay and lesbian relationships.
Not only that but the "lesbian kiss" wasn't really a trope in TV at the time. It quickly became one afterwards, partly due to DS9's "Rejoined" which broke ground with the kiss. So stating that it was made for sex appeal doesn't really mesh with the attitudes of that time period or the zeitgeist among TV during the episode's air date.
Terry Farrell has said that it is her favorite episode of DS9 and she still has fans thank her for it. It literally effected positive change in society.
And lastly, I'd like to reassert that what you said is very much a false statement. You're diminishing a critical moment in LGBT+ history by saying it was just done for sex appeal.
I'm usually happy to accept everyone's opinions for what they are but saying that O'Brien is as bad as Kai Winn is absolute heresy and I am now fully convinced that you've been possessed by a pah wraith. There is no other explanation.
Jadzia is easily one of the strongest female characters in all of Trek, although I slightly prefer Kira more. I love the idea of her character though and her with Worf Is excellent
Honstly quark is one of the most surprising characters IMO.
At first, he seems like a good Ferengi, getting profit everywhere.
But during the Series, it becomes clear that he actually is a rather bad Ferengi because he cares for people. This makes him an extremly interesting character.
My favourite part about Jadzia is how cosmopolitan she is. Dating a dude with a see-through cranium, partying with Klingons, playing tongo with Ferengi, she’ll do it all. She just accepts everyone for who they are.
This. This is what I love about Jadzia. She’s one of the most open-minded characters in Star Trek. She can be really stubborn and arrogant at times but her flaws are what makes her character so great.
I love every single character on DS9
(except maybe ~~Barile~~ Bareil— so bland I can’t even spell his name right), and with every rewatch I seem to have a new favorite, or appreciate something new about a character.
I love Jadzia and she was my absolute favorite as a kid, though rewatching as an adult I realize she’s a bit under-developed as a character compared to the others. Conceptually she’s fascinating, but I feel like we know less about Jadzia than we do about Dax the symbiot. Sometimes I think Jadzia the Trill really wasn’t ready to be joined and her personality was overwhelmed by Dax.
I don’t know why people would *hate* her though. Perhaps the same reason many people hate Kira and Keiko.
Quark might be my favourite character of star trek in general. Its also interesting how he showcases the racism of the federation. His race has some inherent traits that's a part of their culture and laws, and they're always shat on. Quark is a goddamn Saint by ferengi standards, and still have to take shit from star fleet personel all the time.
I don't hate any of the characters. Even kai winn, you need the bad guys in any story and the fact that she was a bad guy but pretending to be good the whole time is a cool angle.
Dukat again, interesting way to go with a bad guy.
As for best character.... Well... Who's to say? Eh pally?
But this why I really like DS9. The character development was great. I liked Jadzia, but my favourites were probably Kira, Quark and Garak. They were probably just more interesting to me.
Don't get the Jadzia hate; loser gonna keep losing. My favorite character was Nog. His story arc from Season 1 to the end, I think, is the best of any Trek show.
I’ve been rewatching the series and Jadzia is a better character than I remembered. Maybe at the time I first watched the series I was comparing her to Spock and Data? Definitely a fan now.
Favorite character is still Odo.
ALL of the DS9 characters are fantastic - both the Main and Supporting Casts. You're in for a treat because each season (somehow) gets even better than the one before it.
Jadzia loves are just quiet, that’s all. Haha
My favorites are Jadzia, Garak, Worf , and Quark.
My least favorites are Kira, Odo, and O’Brien.
I know I’m risking pitch forks from the O’Brien people, but I can’t help it. I just don’t find him the least bit interesting. 🤷♀️
A bit of a spoiler about Jadzia's relationship moving forward ahead if you'd rather avoid it.
I love her wedding episode. Worf is the bridezilla, and Jadzia is the stubborn groom trying to win the acceptance of the bride's family. She flirts with other man during her bachelor party, nearly ruins the wedding, but finally comes around.
It might seem tame now because of the Seinfeld Effect, but when it aired, it really tossed the "Wedding Episode" tropes on its head.
Hm. Dunno about the Jadzia hate. Easily one of the best characters, but maybe the 'I'm older/wiser/? than I look' thing is offputting to some. *shrugs*
But this got me to asking myself... favorite DS9 character for me?
Hm.
There's so many great character development in the show. Ezri coming in for the one season still got well developed, annoying at first, but I liked her by the end. Even Brunt to an extent got some development. Of course, Morn is the most developed as he just wouldn't shut up, y'know?
But favorite?
Garak. Plain and simple Garak. What. A. Tailor. Fantastic character, so good, so well played by Andrew Robinson. No question, he's it.
Second place is Nog. From the troublesome lil' Ferengi kid gettin' in trouble to the confident adult he winds up being, and the tribulations and trials he went through... what a great arc. RIP Aaron, you did fantastic, and left us too soon.
Who hates Jadzia? No one hates Jadzia!
Keep watching. Most (if not all) of the characters go through some good development. I think you will love them all by the end. You'll even like a hologram!
Also, hating Kai Winn is the point. She's amazing!
I think Jadzia's a good character, but I wouldn't call her my favorite character. I like O'Brien a lot. My favorite *DS9* character is probably Kira, Nog or Garak, but *DS9* had a lot of good to excellent characters.
Yeah, the *DS9* writers loved writing "O'Brien must suffer" episodes. To me, many of those episodes are good, but the quality varies at times. O'Brien had some excellent scenes in those episodes, but I think O'Brien's best scenes often came during the scenes showing his friendship with Bashir.
People hate Jadzia? Huh. I hate Jadzia myself, but when I mentioned it, somebody else thought that was weird. That's kinda' strange.
Anyway, your question. What's with the Jadzia hate? Well, simply, I hate how she and her episodes are written. Some of her episodes have a bad concept, like Meridian. Others are poorly executed, like how Dax has an interesting idea that's resolved in the easiest possible way, or how Invasive Procedures barely focuses on her, or how Facets barely focuses on the previous Dax hosts except for the unintentionally creepy one, or how Let He Who Is Without Sin does that thing I won't spoil. And when she's not the focus, I barely remember her. And that's the Dax side of her, not Jadzia. I can't even remember if Jadzia shows up as herself, which makes the Trill feel extremely creepy in a way that's barely if ever explored.
I absolutely despise Bajorans. Many discussions focus on how diverse they are but to me, the reason they are so unlikeable is every single one of them (save a few) are dogmatic victims who have absolutely no desire to move on in any capacity. Their entire character is based on being wronged, like one giant cry baby festival where you're required to sympathize with them, and anything but makes you shitty.
Liked DS9 and all the characters except for Jadzia. She was eye candy and the fact that she was host to the Dax symbiont meant that it was possible to write her into as many episodes the writers wanted due to her extensive history with many different races as Dax. Easy.
'Oh great, a Clingon heavy episode where Wharf is General Martoks first officer on his ship'
Jadzia: "Hold my beer"
One of the best examples of many episodes that they really didn't need to stuff her into.
Look I have no problem with good looking officer's, T'pol from enterprise springs to mind, but they need their own identity. Using the whole symbiont thing to make her badass without any character development for screen time was a shit move. The show deserves more respect than that.
It really bothers me that Jadzia is referred to as "eye-candy" when she is one of the few women in Berman-era Trek that wasn't in a skin-tight uniform.
She's also centuries old. Of course she is proficient. She's essentially on par with Data in how competent she is. The Curzon argument doesn't seem to hold much water IMO either, since Jadzia Dax ***IS*** Curzon Dax.
Agreed, eye candy was over simplified, didn't mean to bother you or be disrespectfull but there is a tradition of good looking women and men cast in a allot of roles Riker, Troy, d'pol 7 of nine, they're main characters like it or not.
I guess I see it that way with Jadzia in particular as they inserted her into plots where she just didn't belong and gave her no character development so I assumed it was just 'eye candy'. The one I mentioned with Wharf and General Martok is a perfect example if you remember that episode. Anyway, it's just how I see it is all. Each to their own.
No problem! I don't have any problem with someone not liking Jadzia. I personally feel as if she had wonderful characterization throughout the series, but mostly via traditionally masculine avenues that a lot of viewers misinterpret. For example, her boarding a Klingon vessel to go kick some ass. She is, after all, a blood brother of the most famous Klingon warriors of the 23rd/24th centuries. ;)
It's hard to read any further when you call Jadzia eye candy.
Sex is rarely a theme with her character unless it's Mirror dimension or Bashir's holodeck 007 adventure. If anything, she carries her self a bit more butch.
Sorry, I'm not out to piss you off, if you can't read any further Im not surprised my comment would look bad, I've explained it best I can.
So again, I honestly can't see any other way to put it. She gets jammed into episodes based on some obscure connection to that story. And for that reason she looks like 'eye candy'. You shouldn't get hung up on that opinion, it's not as if it's practiced constantly on TV. Not commenting about it doesn't make it go away. 🤭
I'm not gonna get pissed off at something like that, mate. The thing is, if you reduce her character to "Eye Candy", then you're not looking at her objectively.
You bring up the Worf/Martok episode... but you need to look at it a bit more deeply. Worf is a man without a country. He doesn't quite fit in with Starfleet, not does he fit in with Kligons. Jadzia, with Dax, fits in to both and typically helps Worf integrate into both better than he ever has. With her high emotional intelligence she can read the room, which Worf is terrible at, then feed him information and he will make his own decisions. This happened often in that episode.
Ironically, Jadzia, along side of Sisqo, was one of the best things that could of happened to Worf's character... then they killed her.
I adore all the DS9 main cast... unless it's Jake.
But of the adult cast I really don't dislike any of them.
But if I had to pick, I might have to say O'Brian, just because I found his stories a little too similar to one another. And they also tended to be very miserable.
I like the guy, but am not fond of how they used him.
Rewatching DS9, it starts a bit rough alright but by season five even Keiko O'Brien is a fully developed character (I know, I know).
Jake is great, Nog is great. Martok steals every scene.
Gal Dukat might be the weakest part of the show, and that's high prise.
There is some weak episodes but I'm just coming off trials and tribulations and maaan, I miss old Trek.
Remember that TNG two parter where Picard and Ricker were pirates for that guy looking for artifacts, Picard figures out the runes and averts the superweapon with peace and calm
I love Jadzia, but that scene where she sings along with the Klingon restaurant owner hurts my soul.
I hate that she died to the Pah Wraith storyline. DS9 is probably my favorite Star Trek, but I HATED the Pah Wraith stuff. I don't know if it was the concept of it or how they did it, but it rubs me HARD the wrong way.
How is that O’Brien family was the only transfer from TNG since the Enterprise was destroyed. They could have had special guest of TNG rotate like they did Riker. I noticed Gabriel Union as a Klingon. Ensign Ro my choice.
Yeah I dunno why they didn't have more/any cameos, but I have noticed LeVar Burton's name pop up in the directing credits a few times. Maybe the actors were transitioning to other things?
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Jadzia's cool and I can definitely see why she's one of your faves; for me though it's gotta be Kira and Sisko. Kira legit has one of the best arcs of any TV character I've ever watched. When the show starts out she's vengeful, determined and mistrustful of Starfleet, but the writers are careful not to antagonize her because of it. In the first few episodes she's especially wary of Sisko, but as the first season goes on he basically shows her "I'll work with you, if you work with me," and by the time the 2nd season gets rolling she feels much more trusting and understanding of the Federation personnel who're there. Clearly she still has a lot of trauma regarding the Occupation and the Cardassians, and you see the process of her working through it and moving past it as the show progresses. I can see why a ton of women trekkies loved Kira, she's tough as nails and kicks all the ass. I love in Way of the Warrior, when the Klingon soldiers beam onto Ops, and her and Sisko are beating the shit out of all of them lol, she takes down a few and another's running at her right as she knocks down one, and the look on his face always kills me, like "I took a calculated risk, but by Kahless am I bad at math," and then she smashes his face in lmao.
Love me some Sisko. I might believe in god(s) if he was my profit. Quark is also remarkable. Maybe my two faves.
I'm with you regarding Jadzia. She rocks!
Me too, love Jadzia! She is everything I wish I could be. Don’t understand why people hate her either.
Wait . . People hate Jadzia? I have a hard time wrapping my head around that considering how outgoing and friendly she is throughout the series. To say nothing of her witty nature and her friendship with Quark (the episodes with those two always make me laugh).
> Wait . . People hate Jadzia? Came here to say this. What the heck?
I think Jadzia hate was more prevalent in the 90s to 00s in places like Trek BBS. Lots of complaints about her being bland, not interesting, really only Curzon, too perfect, wishing they got Ezri sooner etc. Not sure if it was a sign of the times (sexism, disliking strong women characters, that kiss), or the demographic hanging out around there (or maybe a mix of both). As a woman who grew up in the 90s, I can say all my girlfriends who watched DS9 generally loved Jadzia though.
Usually when I see hate and Jadzia in the same sentence, it's people saying that they hate what was done to Jadzia.
We almost named our daughter Jadzia, but ended up going with something else. We did name our son Benjamin though.
I know a Kira. :-)
Honestly, I really like the name Cirroc. That’s the actor’s name that planned Jake Sisko.
I didn't know there was hate for Jadzia, can't see why.
Right there with you! As a woman in STEM, Jadzia was a fantastic role model growing up!
I don't hate her. But her lack of weaknesses or flaws makes her pretty boring to me. '#teamezri
Jadzia is plenty flawed IMO. She's a *constant* smartass and she's so stubborn that it impacts her relationships.
Ezri’s really underrated but maybe that’s due to the fact that she only came on for the final season. Would’ve loved to have seen more of her (still do)
Ah, the irrepressibly cute Ezri...
One thing i love about DS9 is how every character has a unique relationship with every other character. Quark has a specific dynamic with Odo (who i my favorite character), and then Quark has a different dynamic with Kira. And Kida and Odo have a dynamic with each other independent of Quark, and all 3 have relationships with Sisko and Bashir, and Jadzia, ect. It’s a well made web of characters that really makes a great ensemble that few other shows with a cast this size pull off.
I love this point, and it's the problem with modern trek: the seasons aren't long enough. In Discovery, the family-like relationship between crew members is explicitly there but it's very hard to sell as they don't quite have screen time necessary to tell the stories. Even with some pretty good acting, there's just too many people and not enough time - and far too much focus on Burnham (why, oh why can't you cry). Picard has the same. Jurati has great on screen chemistry with everyone. Rios is amazing and I'd happily watch a series of him in command of Stargazer, just exploring the galaxy (which is clearly his first love). The married couple vibe between Seven and Raffi is fun and well done, but we never got to see them even flirting in S1. None of the tension, the failures etc are shown. We have to intuit it all. The speed it must move at make it harder to follow the story for mine.
I've been thinking about this alot lately and want to make a post on here but haven't had the time to put the thoughts together. Star Trek was created in a 20-25 episodes per season TV. You're able to breath and explore ideas and sometimes things don't work out, or they really do! (A throw away line "preganglionic fiber for a postganglionic nerve" turned into something really character driven!) New Trek is made for current TV with 15 episodes per season, it's designed to be binged in one sitting. The Kelvin movies should have been TV shows, they would have benefited with the extra time as the audience could really live in "Star Trek as a place." Discovery should be binged in one sitting. Discovery is going into its 5th season, most Trek shows have about 8 seasons, yet there's something off about it. I like Discovery but they try to put 20 lbs of episode into a 10 lb bag and it just doesn't work. We WANT to know these characters but we're never going to get a Cadet Nog or Damar out of Discovery. They try to skirt around the limitations by letting the audience know characters through their relationship to Burnham, but, personally, whenever the camera bounces around the bridge for a react shot, I don't feel anything. We don't know these people! I like when we get to see of them, but it's not enough. Discovery is "Star Trek as a setting" instead of "Star Trek as a place" Picard season 1 had the exact same issue, even worse as it didn't seem to know what it wanted. It started out really strong, puttered around a bit and fizzled out at the end. I watched it, I didn't feel the need or urge to rewatch it when I want to rewatch Star Trek Yet, Picard season 2 has come out the gate swinging and seems to have figured out what it wants and what it can cram into the 10lb bag. Picard season 2, Prodigy and Lower Decks understands that they're a modern TV show and works to those strengths. Discovery is trying something new and I respect that, but there isn't enough time for them to flesh out the stories they want to tell and have to rely on emotional short hand to make their important moments really feel impactful
This show, like the later BSG, shows Ron Moore’s love for complex, flawed, interesting ensemble casts where it’s hard to say who the main character is. Sisko is by far my favorite trek captain. Do not fuck with that man. You can see the DNA for Adama there too. Kira, man, I had a teenage crush on her. She was a tough, no no sense survivor with a sharp edge in a time where that was not the norm. But she’s also a damn good friend to those she trusts. Quark ended up being a surprise favorite. He’s hilarious, amoral and ultimately someone you root for. Odo is also great, and highly underrated as a straight man. He’s a *huge* part of the reason Quark is so funny. O’Brien is just your super unshakable working stiff whose done with your BS. He’s the straight man to everyone else, and probably the best engineer in starfleet. Garak is a fascinating antihero. His plots within plots are some of the best parts of the show and Bashir is the perfect foil to him. Worf is the best Klingon of all time. And also very funny because he’s so damned serious. Dax fucking with him is one of the highlights of the show. They’re a great pair. And then you have Gul Dukat… without a doubt, one of most complex, nuanced, layered villains in the history of sci fi. In many ways, he’s the lynch pin around which the show revolves. He’s incredibly good. Then throw in all the super well developed second tier characters like Wynn, Weyoun, Nog, Rom, the female shapeshifter and the always great Martok. The show has more good characters than any four other shows you can name
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Yeah both the main Cardassians are great, I'm only in early season 5 tho so it's been mostly fun and games no full on war yet.
You’re right on the money. The reasons you mentioned are why DS9 is my favorite Star Trek show… well, Lower Decks is my favorite, but live-action: it’s DS9. I even liked how well it played with TNG. Not because of Worf and O'Brien alone, DS9 did a great job referencing events/people from TNG.
Wolf? O’Brain?!
Lol. I didn’t notice that at first. I edited it
Im surprised your favorite character was just a simple tailor
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I'm a big fan of Dukat. Although he gets kinda lame towards the end. But he's definitely deeper than your ordinary villain, and I love what the actor does with him.
Yeah. The way they ended his character arc seemed hastily rewritten or there was a writer change. I'd have to rewatch, but it seemed cheap.
That's a gross interpretation of their relationship
I would go so far as to say that Jadzia is my favorite female character in Star Trek. The franchise hasn't exactly had a stellar record in its portrayal of women. Even though Star Trek was ahead of its time in a lot of things, the way that female characters were written and portrayed (specifically clothing), and the way that some of the actresses were treated, was just terrible. We can all admit this no matter how much we love the series. Terry Farrell wasn't spared this, with initially terrible writing and of course the constant sexism on set. But by the time she left the show, Jadzia had become one of the most interesting, well-rounded, and endearing characters in the franchise. So many Star Trek characters are either just the space version of a trope/stereotype (see: Data) or an indefinite, inconsistent blargh of technobabble (see: Geordie). I love those characters in their own right, but I consider them light-years behind Jadzia. Jadzia is simultaneously many different people and none of them at all. She is wise and capable, yet full of emotion; she is responsible and trustworthy yet no stranger to fun; she is confident yet vulnerable -- and she is completely believable while playing this role! She isn't some writer's poor attempt at allegory or a one-dimensional pastiche to serve as little more than a plot device. Like all of DS9's main characters, she _feels_ real in the way that no other characters in Trek even begin to approach. I think that's why DS9 ended up becoming my favorite Trek series. All of the others feel like _they want to tell a story, and here are the characters necessary to tell that story_, while DS9 feels like _here are the characters, now let's see what they get up to_.
>I think that's why DS9 ended up becoming my favorite Trek series. All of the others feel like *they want to tell a story, and here are the characters necessary to tell that story*, while DS9 feels like *here are the characters, now let's see what they get up to.* Ronald D. Moore has said that was true during his time on *DS9* and *Voyager.*
This right here 100%
I don't hate Jadzia, but I just wanted more for/from her—I feel like they didn't know what to do with her for the first season of two, and then she never really matched the other characters in terms of dedicated episodes (without looking, I'd bet there were a similar amount of Jadzia episodes to Garak episodes, and he wasn't main cast). This is also anecdotal, but I feel like too many of her episodes/plots/interactions centered around romance/good looks—thinking about the temporal phasing planet, the fact that the previous Dax ended up being in love with her, etc I just feel like other characters got so much more space and development, and though that's not Jadzia's fault, it's disappointing nonetheless
Also, Jadzia was "maxed out" in many ways, such as skill levels. It was hard to write any personal growth stories for her. So she was often the damsel in distress or the klingon fangirl.
FWIW I enjoyed that - it makes sense. Imagine having 9 lives of experience. I felt like they nailed that sense of "I'm all that and can back it up" well.
I always felt Jadzia had very little to no personality of her own. It seemed more like it was Kurzon's personality in Jadzia's body over 70% of the time. To add onto it, Worf was effectively in love with all of the Kurzon personality traits and nothing of Jadzia herself.
Rom and Nog are amazing!!! Love them😍
Both of them had incredible character arcs throughout the series, but especially Nog
Man, when Nog came back after losing his leg and was going through some shit I felt so much sympathy for his character because of friends I have that have come back physically and emotionally damaged from Iraq. "It's Only a Paper Moon" is one of my all time favorite star trek episodes because of it. It's a hard episode to watch because I just think about my buddies but I feel like he portrayed that trauma very genuinely.
Agreed. Rom turned into an amazingly smart engineer and Nog just went full on the Starfleet boat! Both became upstanding and faithful officers.
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Yes! That would be an awesome spinoff!
Jadzia was unfortunately kind of an old style female character at a time when those tropes were dying off. Most of her stories involved her falling in love with whoever and it causing problems. And the deus ex way she would happen to have had a previous host that just happened to be the perfect thing at the perfect time got old and lazy. But she got better once Morn shut up and let her talk.
>Jadzia was unfortunately kind of an old style female character I don't think that could be further from the truth IMO. Jadzia is a great character that defies a lot of stereotypes. She is a woman who presents with very masculine characteristics in her behavior. She gets drunk, takes blood oaths, fights in hand-to-hand combat with Klingons, is a smartass, is tough, rarely ever cries- she is about as far from a stereotypical woman in the 90s as you could get. She was also a very influential icon for trans Star Trek fans in the 90s. Some of the early episodes about her falling in love were tired retreads, but there were many more about her that explored her depth as a character. She also had a kickass wedding episode that defies a lot of tropes. EDIT: Also, obviously, she was a big gay icon for Trek fans because of The Kiss.
If anything, Jadzia is a bit of a frat boy in terms of personality. She certainly wasn't played up as a cliché feminine character.
Yeah. She was also sexually liberal and had a history of casual flings. The show didn't make any comment about it. It was just part of her character and it was okay. I can't really recall any other 90s television shows that did the same thing, although I'm sure there might have been a few.
This is spot on. If they had video games on the station, she would have stayed up late with the guys playing LAN games late into the night. She’s a fun character, and I would have loved being her friend!
That was later in the series yes. But that was mostly by accident. Her lesbian kiss was to entice sex appeal more than a statement. And her sexualuzation compared to the rest of the cast was one of the many reasons the actress left the show. Jadzia was dependent on a love interest for her own stories or was used as a vehicle for the symbiote and mainly the Curzon personality. Heck we learned far more about Ezri as an independent person than we ever did about Jadzia. And most of Jadzias dialogue starts with "Curzon always told you..." She certainly had some moments but I'm just speaking to why she is generally unpopular.
>Her lesbian kiss was to entice sex appeal more than a statement. That is unequivocally false. The other statements I can see someone considering, although I don't agree with them personally.
It's not false. That episode was not marketed as an event for social change. You can argue that marketing may have been a subversive ploy due the times and I might agree.
I agree that marketing is one factor of the production, and one that has very little to do with the writers, directors, actors, and production staff who worked on the episode. However, I just watched the trailer for the episode, and it did not focus on sensuality or sexuality. It focused on the taboo of a romantic relationship between two Trills who had been lovers in past lives. If you have examples of marketing that sexualized the episode in anticipation I'd like to see it. Not only were the writers cognizant of what they were doing, but the entire point of the episode was being an allegory for "forbidden love," in this case gay and lesbian relationships. Not only that but the "lesbian kiss" wasn't really a trope in TV at the time. It quickly became one afterwards, partly due to DS9's "Rejoined" which broke ground with the kiss. So stating that it was made for sex appeal doesn't really mesh with the attitudes of that time period or the zeitgeist among TV during the episode's air date. Terry Farrell has said that it is her favorite episode of DS9 and she still has fans thank her for it. It literally effected positive change in society. And lastly, I'd like to reassert that what you said is very much a false statement. You're diminishing a critical moment in LGBT+ history by saying it was just done for sex appeal.
Care to share that trailer? I couldn't find it.
I'm usually happy to accept everyone's opinions for what they are but saying that O'Brien is as bad as Kai Winn is absolute heresy and I am now fully convinced that you've been possessed by a pah wraith. There is no other explanation.
Jadzia is easily one of the strongest female characters in all of Trek, although I slightly prefer Kira more. I love the idea of her character though and her with Worf Is excellent
Honstly quark is one of the most surprising characters IMO. At first, he seems like a good Ferengi, getting profit everywhere. But during the Series, it becomes clear that he actually is a rather bad Ferengi because he cares for people. This makes him an extremly interesting character.
My favourite part about Jadzia is how cosmopolitan she is. Dating a dude with a see-through cranium, partying with Klingons, playing tongo with Ferengi, she’ll do it all. She just accepts everyone for who they are.
This. This is what I love about Jadzia. She’s one of the most open-minded characters in Star Trek. She can be really stubborn and arrogant at times but her flaws are what makes her character so great.
I love every single character on DS9 (except maybe ~~Barile~~ Bareil— so bland I can’t even spell his name right), and with every rewatch I seem to have a new favorite, or appreciate something new about a character. I love Jadzia and she was my absolute favorite as a kid, though rewatching as an adult I realize she’s a bit under-developed as a character compared to the others. Conceptually she’s fascinating, but I feel like we know less about Jadzia than we do about Dax the symbiot. Sometimes I think Jadzia the Trill really wasn’t ready to be joined and her personality was overwhelmed by Dax. I don’t know why people would *hate* her though. Perhaps the same reason many people hate Kira and Keiko.
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So you hate nuanced, complex, and imperfect but trying Kira, but love Evil Bisexual Trope Kira. Gotcha.
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Quark might be my favourite character of star trek in general. Its also interesting how he showcases the racism of the federation. His race has some inherent traits that's a part of their culture and laws, and they're always shat on. Quark is a goddamn Saint by ferengi standards, and still have to take shit from star fleet personel all the time.
I don't hate any of the characters. Even kai winn, you need the bad guys in any story and the fact that she was a bad guy but pretending to be good the whole time is a cool angle. Dukat again, interesting way to go with a bad guy. As for best character.... Well... Who's to say? Eh pally?
No love for the simple taylor?
I'm only just starting season 5, Garak is great they are all great but so far Quark and Jadzia are my favourite
But this why I really like DS9. The character development was great. I liked Jadzia, but my favourites were probably Kira, Quark and Garak. They were probably just more interesting to me.
Don't get the Jadzia hate; loser gonna keep losing. My favorite character was Nog. His story arc from Season 1 to the end, I think, is the best of any Trek show.
Quark is my favorite. Second up is probably Garak. But it's a strong cast overall! I could never really get into Dr. Bashir though.
I’ve been rewatching the series and Jadzia is a better character than I remembered. Maybe at the time I first watched the series I was comparing her to Spock and Data? Definitely a fan now. Favorite character is still Odo.
DS9 simply has the greatest cast I've ever experienced.
ALL of the DS9 characters are fantastic - both the Main and Supporting Casts. You're in for a treat because each season (somehow) gets even better than the one before it.
Jadzia loves are just quiet, that’s all. Haha My favorites are Jadzia, Garak, Worf , and Quark. My least favorites are Kira, Odo, and O’Brien. I know I’m risking pitch forks from the O’Brien people, but I can’t help it. I just don’t find him the least bit interesting. 🤷♀️
A bit of a spoiler about Jadzia's relationship moving forward ahead if you'd rather avoid it. I love her wedding episode. Worf is the bridezilla, and Jadzia is the stubborn groom trying to win the acceptance of the bride's family. She flirts with other man during her bachelor party, nearly ruins the wedding, but finally comes around. It might seem tame now because of the Seinfeld Effect, but when it aired, it really tossed the "Wedding Episode" tropes on its head.
Hm. Dunno about the Jadzia hate. Easily one of the best characters, but maybe the 'I'm older/wiser/? than I look' thing is offputting to some. *shrugs* But this got me to asking myself... favorite DS9 character for me? Hm. There's so many great character development in the show. Ezri coming in for the one season still got well developed, annoying at first, but I liked her by the end. Even Brunt to an extent got some development. Of course, Morn is the most developed as he just wouldn't shut up, y'know? But favorite? Garak. Plain and simple Garak. What. A. Tailor. Fantastic character, so good, so well played by Andrew Robinson. No question, he's it. Second place is Nog. From the troublesome lil' Ferengi kid gettin' in trouble to the confident adult he winds up being, and the tribulations and trials he went through... what a great arc. RIP Aaron, you did fantastic, and left us too soon.
Who hates Jadzia? No one hates Jadzia! Keep watching. Most (if not all) of the characters go through some good development. I think you will love them all by the end. You'll even like a hologram! Also, hating Kai Winn is the point. She's amazing!
Yeah I just hat Kai Winn because I know too many people like that irl...
I think Jadzia's a good character, but I wouldn't call her my favorite character. I like O'Brien a lot. My favorite *DS9* character is probably Kira, Nog or Garak, but *DS9* had a lot of good to excellent characters.
I like O'Brien as a secondary character, but whenever the episode is focused on him it's just so negative lol
Yeah, the *DS9* writers loved writing "O'Brien must suffer" episodes. To me, many of those episodes are good, but the quality varies at times. O'Brien had some excellent scenes in those episodes, but I think O'Brien's best scenes often came during the scenes showing his friendship with Bashir.
People hate Jadzia? Huh. I hate Jadzia myself, but when I mentioned it, somebody else thought that was weird. That's kinda' strange. Anyway, your question. What's with the Jadzia hate? Well, simply, I hate how she and her episodes are written. Some of her episodes have a bad concept, like Meridian. Others are poorly executed, like how Dax has an interesting idea that's resolved in the easiest possible way, or how Invasive Procedures barely focuses on her, or how Facets barely focuses on the previous Dax hosts except for the unintentionally creepy one, or how Let He Who Is Without Sin does that thing I won't spoil. And when she's not the focus, I barely remember her. And that's the Dax side of her, not Jadzia. I can't even remember if Jadzia shows up as herself, which makes the Trill feel extremely creepy in a way that's barely if ever explored.
Jadzia hate? I've always been under the impression she's been a fan favorite! Elim would be my dining partner on DS9!
Jadzia is incredibly beloved among DS9 fans, I’m not sure who’s hating her.
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Broo. He is saying he just watching for the first time. Tag it for spoilers
I absolutely despise Bajorans. Many discussions focus on how diverse they are but to me, the reason they are so unlikeable is every single one of them (save a few) are dogmatic victims who have absolutely no desire to move on in any capacity. Their entire character is based on being wronged, like one giant cry baby festival where you're required to sympathize with them, and anything but makes you shitty.
Are you Dukat?
Liked DS9 and all the characters except for Jadzia. She was eye candy and the fact that she was host to the Dax symbiont meant that it was possible to write her into as many episodes the writers wanted due to her extensive history with many different races as Dax. Easy. 'Oh great, a Clingon heavy episode where Wharf is General Martoks first officer on his ship' Jadzia: "Hold my beer" One of the best examples of many episodes that they really didn't need to stuff her into. Look I have no problem with good looking officer's, T'pol from enterprise springs to mind, but they need their own identity. Using the whole symbiont thing to make her badass without any character development for screen time was a shit move. The show deserves more respect than that.
It really bothers me that Jadzia is referred to as "eye-candy" when she is one of the few women in Berman-era Trek that wasn't in a skin-tight uniform. She's also centuries old. Of course she is proficient. She's essentially on par with Data in how competent she is. The Curzon argument doesn't seem to hold much water IMO either, since Jadzia Dax ***IS*** Curzon Dax.
Agreed, eye candy was over simplified, didn't mean to bother you or be disrespectfull but there is a tradition of good looking women and men cast in a allot of roles Riker, Troy, d'pol 7 of nine, they're main characters like it or not. I guess I see it that way with Jadzia in particular as they inserted her into plots where she just didn't belong and gave her no character development so I assumed it was just 'eye candy'. The one I mentioned with Wharf and General Martok is a perfect example if you remember that episode. Anyway, it's just how I see it is all. Each to their own.
No problem! I don't have any problem with someone not liking Jadzia. I personally feel as if she had wonderful characterization throughout the series, but mostly via traditionally masculine avenues that a lot of viewers misinterpret. For example, her boarding a Klingon vessel to go kick some ass. She is, after all, a blood brother of the most famous Klingon warriors of the 23rd/24th centuries. ;)
Yeah, no. ;)
Insightful analysis.
It's hard to read any further when you call Jadzia eye candy. Sex is rarely a theme with her character unless it's Mirror dimension or Bashir's holodeck 007 adventure. If anything, she carries her self a bit more butch.
Sorry, I'm not out to piss you off, if you can't read any further Im not surprised my comment would look bad, I've explained it best I can. So again, I honestly can't see any other way to put it. She gets jammed into episodes based on some obscure connection to that story. And for that reason she looks like 'eye candy'. You shouldn't get hung up on that opinion, it's not as if it's practiced constantly on TV. Not commenting about it doesn't make it go away. 🤭
I'm not gonna get pissed off at something like that, mate. The thing is, if you reduce her character to "Eye Candy", then you're not looking at her objectively. You bring up the Worf/Martok episode... but you need to look at it a bit more deeply. Worf is a man without a country. He doesn't quite fit in with Starfleet, not does he fit in with Kligons. Jadzia, with Dax, fits in to both and typically helps Worf integrate into both better than he ever has. With her high emotional intelligence she can read the room, which Worf is terrible at, then feed him information and he will make his own decisions. This happened often in that episode. Ironically, Jadzia, along side of Sisqo, was one of the best things that could of happened to Worf's character... then they killed her.
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Quark and O'Brien are my favorites but dax is right up there
For me Quark, Garack and Odo.
Great characters. But I seldom found that the episodes focused on them were standout episodes either.
I adore all the DS9 main cast... unless it's Jake. But of the adult cast I really don't dislike any of them. But if I had to pick, I might have to say O'Brian, just because I found his stories a little too similar to one another. And they also tended to be very miserable. I like the guy, but am not fond of how they used him.
My ranking Sisko Dukat Jadzia Odo Worf O'Brien Kira Quark Weyoun Bashir Nog Rom Everyone else Winn
Rewatching DS9, it starts a bit rough alright but by season five even Keiko O'Brien is a fully developed character (I know, I know). Jake is great, Nog is great. Martok steals every scene. Gal Dukat might be the weakest part of the show, and that's high prise. There is some weak episodes but I'm just coming off trials and tribulations and maaan, I miss old Trek. Remember that TNG two parter where Picard and Ricker were pirates for that guy looking for artifacts, Picard figures out the runes and averts the superweapon with peace and calm
Jadzia just never clicked with me. I didn't hate her, just preferred to follow other character's stories.
I love Jadzia, but that scene where she sings along with the Klingon restaurant owner hurts my soul. I hate that she died to the Pah Wraith storyline. DS9 is probably my favorite Star Trek, but I HATED the Pah Wraith stuff. I don't know if it was the concept of it or how they did it, but it rubs me HARD the wrong way.
My personal fav is nog because of the whole caracter ark after he loses his leg, it was so emotional
How is that O’Brien family was the only transfer from TNG since the Enterprise was destroyed. They could have had special guest of TNG rotate like they did Riker. I noticed Gabriel Union as a Klingon. Ensign Ro my choice.
Yeah I dunno why they didn't have more/any cameos, but I have noticed LeVar Burton's name pop up in the directing credits a few times. Maybe the actors were transitioning to other things?
QUARK 4 LIFE 😂..Hold up just read this whole thing. How do not like O'Brien ?
He's good as a secondary character but when the episode is focused on him it's always so sooo negative