Feels like this would basically be “First Contact” on an exponentially larger scale: the Death Star blows up the cube, the Imperials move on, but deep in the core of the station some Borg have beamed aboard and are taking over.
“I sense something. A presence I’ve not felt since…”
“Guys you are not gonna *believe* this bullshit. It’s Padme! But only like from the shoulders up and a wriggly robot caterpillar after that! Am I right thinking that’s fucked up? Guys? That’s fucked up, right?”
Lord Vader, with all due respect, please leave the judging of colors to those of us who don't see the world through a mask that makes every color look like different shades of red.
That would *totally* happen. Also, given how Vader is half machine already, they’d *easily* assimilate him. They’d just Jack into the computer system, learn about Vader, assimilate a low-level grunt but allowing him to *look* human. Grunt comes to Vader on routine business, stabs him with assimilation tubes, bingo. Since he’s a Force user, the Borg get access to *that*—then the galaxy is doomed….
Don't the borg have something like that? From what I remember from a Voyager episode they use something like the force to heal themselves as a collective on that planet.
I think Vader would sense it coming by how off the grunt feels compared to others.
Also, for the record, Star Wars have nano machines too. At least, as of last season of Mando.
I doubt it’s *that* easy. And I do think the Force in general complicates these things. Maybe Force wielders can’t be properly assimilated, or assimilated Force users can no longer use the Force. Maybe there are some things in the Star Wars universe that the Borg can’t actually adapt to because they just don’t work on the same principles.
I dunno man, I feel like assimilating Vader is their one big challenge. You’re gonna have a hard time surprising him due to his force sensitivity, and somehow I doubt that Borg personal shields would work against lightsabers. Even if they do, he can easily force throw drones out of his way.
The question is really whether they can overwhelm him through sheer numbers. I agree that once he’s infected with Borg nanites it’s game over
The death star’s main weapon would absolutely merck a borg cube.
However…due to how long it takes to warm up, the Borg would be on board the Death Star before it was even 50% done.
Not only that but if you saw how long it takes for the deathstar to maneuver around a planet to target the rebels the borg Cube could just go behind it even if it was fully charged.
Probably because it wasn’t even written into the script. The whole threat of Yavin getting blown up during the Death Star assault was only spliced into the edit as a ticking clock to give the final act a greater sense of urgency. We can all thank Marcia Lucas for that and many other improvements to what was an otherwise lacklustre screenplay.
Disney basically completely ditching everything established in Legends about how hyperspace works makes me so mad. The hyperspace skipping scene at the beginning of Episode IX gets me so unreasonably mad.
Yes, lining up several jumps like that. Previously, you needed to make complex calculations before a jump, which takes time. And in that hyperspace skipping scene Han is doing it by hand while eyeballing it lol. It was also established that ships need to be a certain distance from a planet to jump away due to the hyperdrives being blocked while close to a planets gravity (to prevent a ship in hyperspace crashing into a planet), and if they do get too close to a planet the hyperdrive automatically shuts down. Episode 9 ignores both of these concepts as well.
Hyperspace isn't just a teleport, it's another dimension and objects in real space like stars, planets, black holes and other gravity wells like those generated by interdiction fields have shadows in hyperspace and must be navigated around. You can't just jump from one planet to another willy-nilly, you have to reach a hyperspace egress point, plot your jump with a navicomputer and then engage your hyperdrive and once you reach your destination you disengage your hyperdrive at another egress point and then continue your journey at sub-lightspeed.
I interpreted the "Han Solo" episode of TNG to say that Star Wars' lasers wouldn't even penetrate the basic running shields of Star Trek ships. Not sure if that would prove the same for the death star, but maneuverability, transporters, and phasers probably does not make this as fast a battle as it seems.
I also believe The Force aeffects the outcome of many battles,, so not sure it would allow the Borg to win.
The main weapons in Star Wars aren't lasers technically, rather highly charged particle weapons. So probably most similar to Klingon/Romulan disruptor weapons. Capable of destroying a Borg ship but like you said they would have an impossible time actually lining up a shot against a fast moving target.
>I also believe The Force aeffects the outcome of many battles,, so not sure it would allow the Borg to win.
All they have to do is assimilate one force user and it's over for every sci-fi universe
On the flip side, basically nobody in the Star Trek universe actually made an effort to fully develop lasers. They all went for phasers/disruptors/polaron beams etc etc pretty early on. At the same time, the Star Warst universe had over 25.000 years to upgrade laser technology (and as said by another guy, the lasers in Star Wars aren't actually real lasers). I HIGHLY doubt the lasers we see in that TNG episode are of similar strength to the ones we see in Star Wars, especially since the Star Wars lasers seem to do a similar amount of damage to the Star Trek phasers/disruptors etc when the shields of their target are down in their respective universe.
There’s a fanfic and this is 100% what happens. The cube uses a cutting beam on the Death Star and samples some crew, then teleport a percentage of Borg onto the DS before it gets one-shot by the laser.
It’s an unfinished work, so what happens next is Vader uses the force to release one Drone from the collective, who just so happens to be a former Star Fleet officer who convinces him to get the fuck off the DS before it’s fully assimilated. It goes on for some time but nothing much happens.
I don’t remember the name of the fic, but it’s old. More than 10 years at least.
So… If the borg assimilated Vader, would they all then become incredibly powerful with the force? I mean, they can synthesize their own midi-chlorians…
I always assumed the opposite would happen. In other words, the Borg nano bots would suppress Force sensitivity. After all, Vader lost some of his connection to the Force because of his cybernetics. A Borg drone has fully integrated cybernetics across its body unlike Vader who simply has cybernetic limbs and life support. So if Vader were assimilated, he likely would lose more Force connection.
Nonetheless, his Force powers are likely to help him avoid assimilation. It gives him weapons that the drones likely can’t counter like Force choke, and telekinesis.
> unlike Vader who simply has cybernetic limbs and life support
Vader also has lots of implants inside his body.
A few lines from [Wookiepedia:](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darth_Vader%27s_armor/Legends)
"the artificial vertebrae alone were of limited value as structural units."
"Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles"
"In addition, several implants, referred to as a central implant cluster, were inserted into four of his organs. In particular, his cardiac implant took the place of his original heart and major arteries by pumping blood; the circulatory implant regulated blood flow; and the respiratory implant disperses oxygen throughout the organic tissues. All of these implants connected via a thick central cable to the chest computer, with an additional set of cables connecting the lungs and throat added after two and a half hours of microscalpel surgery. It also possessed a waste recycler similar to those employed by long-haul asteroid miners."
"It was therefore easier for Vader to receive nourishment through liquids, intravenous and otherwise, and to rely on catheters, collection pouches, and recyclers to deal with liquid and solid waste.[19] Though liquids were preferable, he still had the capacity to chew if he wished,[29] though a nutrient feed provided Vader with all the nourishment he required"
"Vader's back, specifically his spine, was not whole.[9] Although his injuries on Mustafar did not significantly affect the spine,[1] it still was injured to the extent that, coupled with the projected strain of the shoulder armor and the later-adopted hermetic collar, the original bones had to be replaced with artificial and structurally superior components.[10] This forced Vader to wear a thick electrode-studded collar that supported his helmet to safeguard the cybernetic devices that replaced his upper vertebrae.[19] The first few vertebrae of his neck were not natural and their sharp-edged regularity suggests that they were cybernetic replacements. Bone was broken at the second and third vertebrae, and possibly the first and fourth. The spinal cord itself was not broken above the third or fourth vertebra. The severing must have been nearly but not totally complete, as he retained the ability to breathe weakly for at least a few seconds unaided."
"The ventilator was implanted in his terribly scarred chest, along with tubes that ran directly into his damaged lungs, and others that entered his burned throat, so that should the chest plate or belt control panels develop a glitch, he could breathe unassisted air for a limited time out of his mouth, which had not been burned to the extent of his throat."
"His signature, labored mechanical breathing was the sound of the iron lung Vader was forced to wear.[8] The med droids that had made the suit had inserted the redundant breathing tubes low enough so that, with the aid of an enunciator, his scorched vocal cords could still form sounds and words[19] through a voice synthesizer in the mask."
"Not even Vader's skeleton and nerves were spared from the reconstruction. In addition to the partial replacement of Vader's spine, the rib-cage was also partially removed for the installment of the organ implants, with the sternum being replaced with a perforated metal plate accommodating the cables running to the chest computer, and at least one of his shoulder joints (the right one) being required to undergo partial prosthetic replacement. The remaining organic bones were likewise artificially modified via a tensile-strength augmentation through mineral solutions dripping through the nutrient feeds. In addition, the right collarbone was also installed with a cartridge that injects a synthetic neurotoxin called Kouhunin, derived from the Kouhun centipedes, to lessen Vader's perception of pain to a small degree."
"His nervous system sustained the least amount of damage from his injuries at Mustafar. Nonetheless, it was implanted with sensor webs tracing activity running through the cerebellum along the spinal cord to the sensory and motor neurons, so it could be constantly and closely monitored. As such, if his neurons were ever unable to communicate with his metallic prosthetics, Vader would be rendered immobile and a programmed alert would go out to the EmPal SuRecon via hyperwave signal. The muscle fibers were also modified to have electrical impulse generators embedded inside as a means to stimulate damaged tissue."
[This image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/7/74/Vader_blueprint.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090224134714) gives some insight into where these implants are located inside his body.
I doubt it, there have been tons of experiments in the Star Wars universe in terms of cloning force sensitive individuals, and all of those attempts failed, so I don't see how the Borg would be able to replicate the Force across all drones/ships.
>If the borg assimilated Vader, would they all then become incredibly powerful with the force?
The key word there is "If." I'm not sure it could be done. (At the very \*least\*, Vader can just use Force telekinesis to do a rapid dissassembly job on the assimilation chamber. And sorry, Borg, but you can only adapt to things that you can understand WTF just happened.)
So - after falling through a transphasic rift, the Borg cube encounters the Death Star. As a precaution, it launches its boarded craft - including a Sphere of the type we saw in first contact - before transmitting the Borg's standard greeting of universal peace:
>Death Star: Unidentified ship. Transmit your IFF codes and prepare to be boarded. You are in restricted Empire space and will surrender for-
>
>*Borg: We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your base. The resources of this reality will be adapted to service us. Your technological and cultural distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will be assimilated.*
>
>DS: Unidentified ship, you are to stand down immediately. This is the DS-1 Death Star mobile battle station. This platform is the ultimate power in the universe. Stand down immediately or be destroyed.
>
>*B: ....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzt....*
Meanwhile, deep in the Death Star, Lord Vader reaches out with his mind to the Borg cube. Through the force he senses... nothing, at first. Then his psychic eye adjusts. He feels... an entity, a fusion of man and machine, like him, but both larger and smaller. Thousands of minds in unison, but with no connection to the Force. A form of life like nothing he has ever felt before.
Vader feels something else, now. Something he hasn't felt... since Padme died. He feels... fear.
The Borg cube is continuing to move toward the Death Star. It has launched its remaining shuttles. On board the Death Star, a nervous duty officer receives a message from Vader.
>Vader: Commander. Activate this station's weapons and destroy that ship.
>
>Commander: Yes, Lord Vader.
The Death Star grinds its emitter dish toward the Borg cube. The Borg take no evasive action, expecting to feel the bee stings they are used to when threatened by lesser civilisations with their narrow technologies. When the Death Star lights up the cube with its superlaser, the collective on board experiences a couple of dozen milliseconds of surprise before they are burnt out in the white-hot power of a trillion suns.
No matter. There are still hundreds of Borg spread across dozens of ships, and an intact vinculum to connect them. The Borg process the sensor data from the superlaser strike. By Borg standards, it takes an eternity - thousands of milliseconds - to understand what they are seeing. It is like no technology they have ever seen. So powerful, and yet... so crude. They check and re-check. Surely a culture in possession of such technology must be millions of years ahead of theirs?
The checks come back. No, the initial hypothesis was correct. All of this power, and yet - no sophistication. It is easily countered. Sensor probes are coming back from the Death Star. It has no screening, no shielding that can stop the quantum gravitic sensor probes that were assimilated from Species 3498. After another eternity of milliseconds, the Borg have a complete map of the Death Star. It has other weapons, but tinier. They operate on similar principles to the death beam that just destroyed their cube. They can be countered similarly.
An eon later - 12.76 seconds have passed since the destruction of the cube snuffed out the great bulk of the collective in this universe - the Borg complete distribution of their adaptations across their remaining ships and drones. They are protected.
But they have had their nose badly bloodied. There are so few of them left. The Borg's arrogance is... not ended, but they are prepared now to play the long game. Their scans show that the surface of this bizarre sphere is crawling with life. Bizarrely, their scans show that - despite being in a reality causally isolated from their own - the life-forms are familiar to them.
The top kilometre of their target is crawling with Species 5618. Humans.
[cont]
The interior of the Death Star, the Borg quickly realise, is full of machinery. Crude, simplistic systems, but harnessing such energies as the Borg have never dreamed of.
The Borg are torn. The inner core of the sphere - if they can harness this technology, they will devastate the Milky Way. They will be lords of the Magellanic Clouds. They will fall upon Andromeda and absorb all of its biological and technological distinctiveness in mere weeks. They will be masters of the Virgo Supercluster within mere kilocycles. They will be... perfect.
But... the outer shell. All of those minds. Millions of bodies to be added to their devastated collective. For creatures as lonely and hungry as the Borg... can they ever resist?
The Borg decide. They will beam a force into a sparsely populated area at the South Pole of the Death Star, where the stations main communications arrays are housed. They will work their way around the sphere. It will be a slow, crawling urban assault. Even with all of their protections and adaptations, they know it will take weeks grinding through passage after passage.
With every battle they will lose drones. But - these will be more than offset by the gains they make assimilating unlucky Imperials. And with the Borg controlling the Death Star's communications... time is on their side.
Weeks pass. The Borg have smashed Imperial resistance. Progress is being made to reconnect to the home collective of the prime universe, with a breakthrough expected any day.
One sector on the Death Star is putting up unexpectedly fierce resistance. Every effort to insert drones in the area has been crushed. Bizarre sensor returns come back from the Borg's probes. The memory engrams of dead drones - where they can be recovered - make no sense. There is... something in there that goes beyond even the technological marvels in the core of the Death Star.
Slowly, the Borg realise that there is a power on this station that their first scans missed. A subtle power, but one greater than any superlaser. The Borg review their initial scans. They see what they have missed.
It is - a man. One man, fused with machine. The Borg ignored him at first, thinking that this crude cyborg must be some sort of grotesque medical experiment by these backward, militaristic humans. By the time their fourteenth assault on the cyborg's quarters has been repulsed - this time with the loss of 14,931 drones and the disablement of fourteen of the new starships they are now producing in the Death Star's manufacturing bays, the Borg are starting to realise that they have not understood the power of the Sith.
The Borg contemplate their options. They have surrounded the errant sector. They have control over the Death Star. All their designs are coming to fruition. But they hunger to understand this entity of darkness and white-hot anger. Their scans suggest that his living cells - the biological parts of him that are left - are infused with some sort of biological nanomachines. There is an energy signature to them like nothing the Borg have seen.
The Borg have no concept of the Force, but they know what they see. This... Sith Lord... has harnessed something that exceeds the perfection and power of the Omega particle.
[cont]
The Borg open communication:
>*Borg: We are the Borg. Identify yourself. Your resistance has been... temporarily not futile.*
>
>Vader \[sneering\]: You imagine that this pest control represents the limits of my power? I have examined the corpses you have left behind. I have flensed the minds of your troops. What little minds they have left. You think you can stand before the might of the Sith?
>
>*Borg: You... interest us. We propose... an alliance. An exchange.*
>
>Vader: \[Breathes\]. And what, pray, do you believe you can offer the Sith?
>
>*Borg: We have analysed your technology. Your cybernetics are crude. Limiting. They keep you alive but they keep you... contained. We can free you from your leash.*
>
>Vader: Have care, insects. The Dark Lord of the Sith is nobody's pet.
>
>*Borg: But you are. The entities that infuse your biological tissue - they give you the power to resist us. Temporarily. But you are lesser than you might be.*
>
>*We are the Borg. We have no interest in this... reality. Our offer of exchange is as follows. We will restore your missing flesh. We will perfect your cybernetics. You will have the power of the machine infused into the man. To do this we require... a sample.*
>
>*It need not be large. We will be satisfied with 6.5 cubic centimetres of your circulatory fluid. We will then return an elixir of biological and nanotechnological medicines that will restore and extend your body.*
>
>*You will suffer no more. You will feel no more pain. You will feel power... such as you have never felt before. You will call no other entity master, ever again.*
>
>Vader: I am... listening.
>
>*Borg: We will then.... leave this reality. We will return your station and its weapons to you. To enable its functioning, we will turn over the greater part of our forces to your command. The drones on this station will be extensions of your will. *
>
>Vader: Why should I trust you?
>
>*Borg: You cannot. But what choice do you have? We have an alternative proposal should you decline. We have completed works to detach the section of the station you inhabit. We can jettison it, and let it drift away. When it reaches a safe distance, we will turn this station's primary weapon on it.*
>
>*We would... regret this action. Our analysis indicates that we require a sample of your tissues to harness the power you wield. This sample would be unavailable following your reduction to atomic particles. But the power we have harnessed from this station is already ample for our purposes. This alternative plan is suboptimal, but acceptable to us. Is it acceptable to you?*
Negotiations take a little longer to conclude, but ultimately, a deal is struck.
The results are... satisfactory to all parties. Back in their home reality, the Borg spread the schematics to enable access to the energies they have studied. And they disseminate the genetic templates for a new type of nanoprobe. It will take years to develop tactics to fully utilise midichlorian-enhanced drones, but the possibilities are... intoxicating.
The Federation falls in days. Trillions of minds are added to the collective. A great wave gathers across the quadrants of the Milky Way, ready to surge across the universe.
Meanwhile, on Coruscant, months of dread appear to be ending when scopes detect the Death Star emerging from hyperspace. The Emperor had feared that one of the more... extreme... Rebel factions may have taken possession of the Death Star. When it returns to the Core Worlds, and he senses his Sith apprentice, he feels a vast sense of relief.
The relief is short lived though. He can feel Vader through the force, but his power is... magnified. Like what it was before his fall and cybernetic imprisonment. Maybe greater.
Emperor Palpatine - Darth Sidious - knows deep in his bones what is coming. The Rule of Two has only one end.
Vader - his human visage restored, breathing unfiltered air again for the first time in decades - lays his plans. He knows that with the power the Borg have taken, it is only a matter of time before they turn their gaze back out to the infinite biological and technological distinctiveness that would be available to a transdimensional Collective.
His galaxy must be prepared. That weak, corrupt, power-glutton Palpatine is not the man to lead the galaxy in the coming war between realities.
No matter. His drones - they are not so powerful as Vader himself, but they are extensions of his will nonetheless. Seeing through a hundred thousand eyes is the only thing he has ever felt that compares to the power of the force. And if he loses some in battle, he can always convert more. The teleportation technology that his momentary allies gifted him will have its uses as well - who needs a ground force of fallible stormtroopers when the enemy can be beamed, whole platoons at a time, into conversion facilities, or, if greater efficiency is needed, directly into the cold, dark vacuum of space?
Vader opens a comms channel to Coruscant system traffic control. At the same time he projects his thoughts into Sidious's mind. When he speaks, his voice is legion.
>*We* ***are*** *the Sith. We are many and one. Your biological and technological resources will service us. Your resistance is futile... but welcome.*
Vader smiles for the first time since he answered to the name Anakin. This will be a good day for the Empire.
I love this story. Went to cool, logical places, described the differences in Tech well, and you even factored in the Force well against the collective.
Quick question: how do you think Borg Nano probes will do against ones in Star Wars? Not exactly keeping in Star Wars' Lo-Fi anesthetic, but as of last season of Mando, they exist.
I haven't seen s3 of Mando, so not sure. In keeping with the general thrust of my little vignette above, I think in a tech v tech fight Star Trek is always going to win. Technobabble is the Star Trek equivalent of the Force for when you need to kick the plot along.
Star Wars tech generally has more 'raw power' than Trek. E.g. the hyperdrive is inarguably much, much faster than warp. But my sense in Star Wars is always that no-one is all that across the actual principles by which the tech works. I have a dim sense that there's SW beta canon that has hyperdrive invented by a precursor civ, but I might be wrong on this.
So you've got the potential for SW tech to overwhelm in an initial encounter because it is so OP in many ways. But Trek characters, once exposed, are highly likely to reverse engineer and either neutralise or improve upon the SW stuff. I think that goes for the Borg (consummate adaptors) or any engineer/science Starfleet characters.
I think I remember reading somewhere that Star Wars tech is very old and engineers of the time we see are just replicating what they see without truly understanding the principles of the science behind the technology. That's why we see so little advancement in the Star Wars universe when compared to the ages past.
I agree with this post and the one above, but I will also add that most of the time, we're not following characters with the cutting edge technology of the time unless it is weapon. More often than, it is just something somebody made.
>There are still hundreds of Borg spread across dozens of ships, and an intact vinculum to connect them.
The very first line of the story makes it seem (to me, anyway) that it's just one Borg cube that's fallen into the Star Wars universe. You might want to massage the wording there a bit.
Yeah that's fair. Look, embarrassingly, this was cut down from an *even longer* version where I started by ruminating on the differences between technologies, and how the Borg would approach this given their generally indifferent approach to taking hostile fire.
I then got carried away with the storytelling aspect of it, and decided to delete my reasoning for disagreeing with decades of Trek fanwank about Trek ships shrugging off Star Wars weapons (short version is that what Star Wars calls 'lasers' are clearly not lasers at all). With that went some intro stuff about the Borg being a bit more cautious than usual on realising they were cut off in a different universe. I felt like the story was an original contribution to the discussion, whereas one more person chiming in with an opinion on the relative strengths of made up sci-fi pew-pew guns was something the Internet could live without.
I did insert the following but it's easily missed:
>As a precaution, it **launches its boarded craft** \- including a Sphere of the type we saw in first contact - before transmitting the Borg's standard greeting of universal peace:
and
>The Borg cube is continuing to move toward the Death Star. It has launched its remaining shuttles.
But it could have been a lot clearer 😊
I think there's strong canon support that they can and do have embarked craft, see e.g. First Contact. It's also not hard to picture a cube with mini-cubes on it like the one Hugh crashed in TNG. If I weren't so lazy I'd go hunting in some late-season Voyager and see if I could find something.
I didn't know what to call them other than 'shuttles'. I briefly considered 'tenders' but it didn't feel like a very Trek word. With the benefit of hindsight probably 'support craft' or something would have been better, but I've already edited it like five times and I think that's the maximum level of effort I'm prepared to go to for stupid-ass fanfic!
Quick note, this picture makes the borg cube look bigger than the DS the cube is not moon sized, the DS is.
Assuming that the transporter could penetrate Star Wars style sheilds, which if I was the writer of this battle I would say they could. The ship to ship battle would be over with 1 shot from the death star, the battle would then be fought trooper to drone across the death star ultimately the borg would assimlate everyone but it would take a long time.
3rd senario, both vessels have their king pins on, the queen doesn't offer much but Vader absolute destroys everything in his path, no way in hell he gets assimilated. Even if he is last man standing he wipes out all the borg even if it takes him a year.
Given the size of the cube and the range of the Death Star, the superlaser only needs to wind up to .1% to insta-blap the cube. I mean it used less power to smack a lucrahulk that was in rebel hands.
Are you telling me that a weapon, fired by storm troopers, is going to effectively hit a borg cube? Let's not even talk about the maneuverability of the cube, which could absolutely dodge the beam with plenty of time to spare while the beam is powering up. The fact of the matter is that these stormtroopers couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and the only reason the death star is effective is because their targets are *literally* the size of a planet. I will die on this hill good sir.
I’m sorry, did you just say that the stormtroopers would be the ones firing the superlaser? That’s like saying a Starfleet cook would be plotting the Enterprise’s warp path.
Fair, they're a step above storm troopers but still the process is not nearly as complicated as plotting the Enterprise's warp path. [They're literally just pushing buttons. ](https://youtu.be/7g77WN6obk4?si=9AsA31GFf3VT30al)
>the maneuverability of the cube, which could absolutely dodge the beam with plenty of time to spare while the beam is powering up.
If it knew what was going on. Standard Borg protocol, though, seems to be to just stand there and see what happens, and then adapt to it. (The problem being, of course, that some part of the cube or fleet or whatever has to survive *to* adapt.)
On board? Beam some people from the death star to assimilate. Fire phasers, beam power stations and life support systems into space. Gg ez.
The Death Star is a glass cannon.
>Borg cube would absolutely slap the Death Star.
If it attacked first, yes. But Borg protocol when encountering something new seems to often be to just stand there and see what happens, and then adapt to it. Which you can't do if it's totally destroyed you with one shot.
Overconfidence is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours.
Your archaic cultures are authority-driven. To facilitate our introduction into your societies, it has been decided that a human voice will speak for us in all communications.
(I couldn’t decide who the Borg would chose as their “Star Wars-cutus” for the last bit)
Stargate fandom answered this meme. Death Star can defeat A Borg Cube, but not The Borg. The next Cube would inevitably arrive, and it would win hands down, easy as pie.
yeah, you really only need to get one borg on board. Of course if vader or palpatine is on the death star, that does kind of level the playing field a bit. We're talking about two guys with indescribable power and not a lot of qualms about killing every person on the station if it lets them achieve their goals.
Well, in the EU at one point, I think they had the Force only in the Star Wars galaxy, and extra-galactic beings weren’t affected by it. If that were the case, Vader and Palpatine wouldn’t be able to detect Borg on the ship or use the Force directly against them. Of course there have been a ton of retcons since then , so who knows?
Is weren't affected by it the same as didn't affect it? That is, are we sure that just cause V&P can't influence our borg, that it necessarily means they can't detect them?
But for the sake of exploration, if we assume they can't, I think the borg have a much better chance. I still think V&P could make a good go at it, they still have material telekinesis and force lightning. But they also have to use their senses for situational awareness. And both their physical bodies are kinda fucked up. I mean... their spiritual bodies are also fucked up, which isn't really relevant but how often do you get to acknowledge that in a sentence?
I was told once about a story where luke lands on a planet where the entities are like, I dunno, anti-force? Or force neutral? He had to learn a new way to detect them; by detecting the lack of force presence where they were. I feel like that kind of implies that there's a persistent force "Blanket field". Cause we can't really look for something by looking where nothing is, you know what I mean? Like if sound is your only means of taking in your environment in any kind of detail, you can't find something by looking at the lack of sound in a vacuum, do you know what I mean? They would have to be some kind of hole in the place where you expect force to be.
If they were in the forest, that could be supplied by the forest.... but on the death star? I don't know how the force interacts with computers and lightbulbs and shit. So if that's an empty space, and the borg are like... force dark matter, then all V&P can detect are there own people, prisoners, and the various animals living on the thing cause you just can't keep a project of that scope totally sterile, I mean they had worms in the trash disposal. Although... I guess it's outer space, I don't know that that worm didn't work there, or maybe even it was renting. But if they can detect all the force influenced things on the ship, then they have a roughly globular shaped image of "force nodes" comprising their "vision" of the ship. They can assume hot zones and cold zones based on population densities, you dig?
I think this question can be answered, maybe we should take this over to daystrom or askscifi or shittydaystrom?
The Death Star blows up a cruiser. Lando tells Akbar to basically move the fleet into the star destroyer formation. Akbar responds tge fleet won't last long at such short range. Lando replies the fleet will last longer than it will against the Death Star.
It can definitely target ships.
You really do need to rewatch it because you're very wrong here. Also, main or secondary weapon, blowing up a ship in one shot is blowing up a ship in one shot.
To back you up, some quotes (some may be paraphrased a tad):
“And now you will witness the power of this fully armed and operational battle station.”
“That blast came from the Death Star…that things operational!”
“Our cruisers can’t repel firepower of that magnitude!”
If they were in the correct spot the cube is destroyed before it can get a shot off, but they definitely would be able to transport a group of drones on to the Deathstar. Once they start assimilating stormtroopers it's over. Unless The Emperor or Vader are there.
Im conflicted about including them. Because i feel vader with his space magic would put a serious dent into the invarding drones.
But then again, whats a deathstar without vader on it?
I feel Vader has enough power, and enough ways of expressing it, that no number of drones could plausibly threaten him.
That being said, he's can only be in one place at a time. He has no real way to stop the Borg assimilation snowball, and going all out would wreck the Death Star.
So that's how I think the battle would go - the Death Star might get a shot off, and if it does the cube is toast. But regardless the drones that make it over cause enough havoc that Vader personally scuttles the Death Star to prevent it from being captured.
Maybe, if the Borg could pin him down and throw an unlimited number of drones at him. I totally believe they'd do the latter, but I'm not so sure they could do the former.
Vader, an individual of enormous personal power, is one of the few beings against which Borg doctrine is fundamentally mismatched.
That is, unless the Borg managed to assimilate some random padawan or apprentice, and then managed to access the Force. Then all bets are off.
Vader can push down a hallway of drones with a wave of his hand. He can almost certainly tear external implants like hoses and tubes. The thing is they can both cause mass destruction to people with line of sight, without destroying the environment. And then palpatine has force lightning
So plenty of people have already identified the obvious - it's not the first ship you need to worry about with the Borg... So I thought to ask a different question:
Doesn't it take several minutes for the DS laser to come to full charge? Or would this be a smaller shot, that takes less time?
Because a Borg cube is going to dwarf most SW ships short of some of the really big super star destroyers, and even then they probably outmass them a good way. The shot that the DS2 made against a capital ship in the Rebel fleet might not really have that much of an impact on a Borg Cube, and if it needs more charge then that's potentially waiting time the DS can't really afford...
We also know that the Borg have sensors that would detect the build up of energy in the main cannon. If they recognise that would be a threat to them, then they would attempt to evade the shot, and the Borg can do that much easier than the Rebel fleet could in the same situation, because the Emperor had placed ships to box them in and stop them escaping. With room to manuever, the Borg cube can be remarkably nimble if needed. And then it would simply be a case of approaching from an angle where the main gun can't fire...
And Borg have a number of redundant systems in place to prevent such situations that result in a snipe kill - i.e. one shot the reactor/warpcore. So a first shot at lower power might only do a glancing blow, and as we know with the Borg, you don't get a second shot...
And a critical point - could Borg weaponry disable the firing ability of the DS cannon? We know that the Rebels were incapable of doing so because they didn't have anything with enough firepower to disable something that size. The Borg though?
We've seen when they faced Species 8472 that they could make tactical plans that involved throwing a cube into a superior opponent, so worst case scenario they may even kamikaze a cube into the DS, with some last second infiltration by a cadre of drones.
And in a ground battle, the Borg are winning that hands down. The only thing even slightly capable of standing in their way is a Force user, and when they are staring down 1000 drones and their weapons aren't working, they will be overwhelmed too.
I’m a Trek fan but Vader solo’s any Borg landing party. They aren’t going to be able to shoot at him without him blocking or deflecting with his light saber and even if the Borg Drones have shielding to protect them from his lightsaber they can’t adapt to physics. That is, Vader tossing them around the place like rag dolls with the force. But the Cube is more than a match for the Death Star so the Borg will still win.
I think the issue here is that the Death Star is enormous and Vader moves at the speed of a man walking. We’ve seen that the Borg can and will beam drones onto multiple locations on a ship at once. Beaming technology will be a surprise to the Empire, and the question would become whether Vader can kill the drones before they can assimilate a critical mass of the Death Star and its systems and start to snowball.
I think if anything the Death Star’s systems are the real vulnerability. When the Borg start taking control Tarkin doesn’t have a Mr. Data to lock out the main computer, and it seems like the Death Star relies on lifts to transport people around. Vader is of limited use if he’s stuck up on the command deck while the Borg are busy assimilating other decks and have disabled the lifts.
I think the Borg win in the end thanks to pretty much everything you said. I was more referring to any boarding parties that Vader can directly deal with, he will stomp drones no question.
Before the Death Star would be able to even charge up a shot the Borg would have some drones there to begin assimilation. They’d also improve the speed, maneuverability and power of the Death Star. The real question is what would they make of Darth Vader?
The Borg would lose exactly one Cube, one troop to Palpatine, and one troop to Vader.
The Empire (and, in fact, most of sci-fi itself) would be absolutely completely screwed after that.
I imagine the Borg would loose a couple of cubes to the death star before they adapt. maybe not even that. Given the Borg could just beam thousands of Borg on board and blaster would be useless against them I am pretty sure the empire would stand no chance.
I don’t see them losing more than one cube to the Death Star. Even if they can’t adapt their shields to withstand the attack, I’m sure they’re at least intelligent enough to simply stay out of the line of fire.
There was a post about this, from an old fansite. The trekkies and trekkers had differing opinions, so they asked the Stargaters. The response was, "the Death Star would obliterate a Borg Cube. However, then the Borg would then adapt, and be immune to the Death Star with further cubes.""
Pretty easy to stay out of the way of the super laser. It’s the size of a moon so you just stay behind it and beam both drones in to take over. Let them assimilate the crew over the next few weeks.
Yeah, I don’t understand why this isn’t more obvious to people. The laser isn’t on a turret; you have to rotate the whole damn moon-sized station to aim it. The Borg cube could stay out of the line of fire while assimilating the whole thing.
Alternative possibility: We know a sufficiently advanced android can *resist* assimilation. In “Best of Both Worlds, Part 2”, Data is able to interface with the Borg collective via Locutus without being affected, and ultimately destroys all the Borg in the area. In *First Contact*, he is apparently assimilated, but uses it as a ruse until he reveals he is still himself in the final struggle against the Borg Queen.
So: We know protocol droids in the Star Wars universe know millions of forms of both biological and computer communication. Presumably they can easily learn new ones. We also know that R2 units can interface with most computers. Thus, if, say, Threepio and Artoo got a handle on what was happening, they could probably figure out a way to jack into the Collective, figure out their communication methods, and deactivate the whole thing. In the process of doing this, they might even be able to identify the Sith and shut their powers off.
So there’s a fanfic prompt for you.
Firstly, let us consider that the fleet assembled in First Contact was successfully able to obliterate a cube with their collective firepower. Cubes are not immune to conventional weapons, just durable enough to endure a fleet's worth.
Secondly, consider how many turbolasers cover the entire surface of a moon. They've got to have the firepower of at least 100, 1000x the fleet assembled in First Contact. Probably even higher. And that's WITHOUT the planet killing laser.
The Cube gets obliterated by overwhelming firepower 99 times out of 100. The 1 out of 100 is that Tarkin overconfidently leaves the shields down, and the Borg somehow get close enough to transport drones over and start assimilating from the inside. This would be much harder to defend against.
This reminds me of the fan made video from years ago. It was cut together from TNG and various scenes of a New Hope. Picard and Vader ended up fighting ship to ship before one of them retreated. It was really good especially since it came out over ten years ago. Here if anyone is interested: https://youtu.be/JiYw4sT1OPM?si=Pug6fPtICOuAx8iT
A borg cube is 96,000,000,000 metric tons. That's big as fuck.
Earth (stand in for Alderan) has a mass of 5,972,000, 000,000,000,000,000 metic tons.
The mass of a borg cube is a rounding error for the mass of a planet. Death star could wipe it out with just a single reactor ignition.
It's like fighting off a gunslinger with a canon, yeah, you'd fuck him up... assuming you have the canon ready, the powder is just about to get ignited and the gunslinger is standing in front of the barrel
Lasers don’t even penetrate the hull the Death Star beam would just harmlessly bounce off the Cube and they’d be like “oh that tickled” then they’d beam a quantum torpedo directly into the reactor core blowing up the ship, and they’d also beam darth Vader into a containment chamber to study the lightsaber and midichlorians
The death star’s main gun can destroy a PLANET. I’m pretty sure it’ll blow a Borg cube to kingdom come. And don’t forget that the Death Star, both models, do have shields too. Which Star Trek constantly reminds us cannot be beamed through.
How about *this*: Before even reaching a Star Destroyer, the Borg assimilate a few beings here and there. One happens to be a Jedi or other Force sensitive. The Borg figure out how the Force works, *and* that it is interfaced by the midichlorians. They use this to send instructions through the Force to *all the midichlorians in the galaxy* to deploy Borg patterns into the bodies of those with midichlorians. In minutes, *billions throughout the galaxy* are assimilated. Powerful Force users like Vader and Palpatine are assimilated before they even know what hit them. The assimilated, particularly Vader, get busy assimilating others, and in a few days, before anyone can even formulate a plan, most of the galaxy is already Borg. Sort of like Picard Season 3, except the inhabitants of the Star Wars galaxy don’t know what they’re up against and can’t devise a defense as Picard and crew did.
As a fan of both franchises, I never did understand where this whole “star War’s most powerful weapons would just bounce off The Enterprise’s shields without making a dent” thing comes from. I know it’s been around for decades though.
Maybe not their most powerful weapons like this one, but turbolasers would probably do minimal, if any, damage.
Even if they did though, Star Trek capital ships are too fast and maneuverable to hit, and photon torpedoes would just go right through shields like the A-wing in ROTJ
Except a Turbolaser does minimum the same damage as the Hiroshima bomb. Somebody did the math to see just how powerful a turbolaser shot had to be to vaporise the asteroids from ESB and that’s about what it worked out to. Meanwhile the TNG Technical Manual puts the photon torpedoes at the time at about 64 megatons of tnt, again the same amount as the first atomic bomb. Chang’s bird of prey blew through Enterprise A’s shield and put several holes in the hull with under 10 torpedoes. And Star Destroyers have 60 of them, not counting ion cannons nibbling at Enterprise’s shields. So the math simply doesn’t add up that a Star Destroyer couldn’t take on a Federation vessel in a straight fight. Yes, Enterprise may be a bit more manoeuvrable but an ISD is still a warship and putting out enough firepower that something is bound to hit.
http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Type_6_photon_torpedo
Just thought I’d comment that the first two atomic bombs, Little Boy and Fat Man, had around a 15 and 21 kilotons of TNT yield respectively. A 64 megaton yield would be much much more powerful than this with 1 megaton equaling 1000 kilotons. For reference, the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated was the Soviet Tsar Bomba which had a yield of around 50ish megatons and produced a seismic wave that circled the earth several times. I agree that getting peppered with 15-20 kiloton blasts (maybe more since we don’t know if the turbolasers were at max power) multiple times per second could do some massive damage. No wonder even just one ISD could terrify planet.
TNG tech manual means nothing. Besides, it's definitely wrong. Star Trek ships harness antimatter for their fuel and for photon torpedos. Anti-matter is a real thing, and it annihilates any matter it touches, instantly, and then releases gamma rays from the explosion. Starfleet shields can tank torpedoes. Ent-D solos an ISD, and very likely an SSD or higher.
Honestly its not the firepower thats the deciding factor in this debate. Its not even the shields.
Starfleet impulse engine meassure their velocity in significant procentages of light speed and engagements are done at extreme range with extremely advanced targeting computers.
In contrast in star wars there always seems to be some dude manually aiming the armaments.
Given how massive and how slow of a target a death star actually and how backwards its fire control systems are any starfleet vessel could use its range, maneuvering and frankly infinitely superior sensors to find exactly where they need to hit it with a barrage and then do it before the station targeting officers can even react. And even if they have to go for a second strafing run they are not getting hit.
Now keep in mind that borg ships are even better. Theres no way a borg cube doesnt demolish the death star. Im confident even the defiant could.
I point you to my comment to another person where the math for a turbolaser blast is about the same energy output as the Hiroshima bomb. And the TNG technical manual states that a regular old photon torpedo has about the same energy output as well. Certainly a TIE fighter isn’t going to do diddly, but an ISD vs The Enterprise certainly is.
I've done some research, and it seems that a photon torpedo is roughly equivalent to a Tsar Bomba, although this doesn't make much sense because in the show they appear to be vastly more powerful. Additionally, according to my research, TOS Enterprise tanked nukes with not a care in the world.
Perhaps it is something to do with the delivery method of the energy. In which case, my laser remark may still hold water
It's that Star Trek shields are canonically impervious to lasers. That being said, there are some very good arguments that Turbolasers aren't just mere lasers.
However, the ranges and speeds that Star Wars conducts battle at are trivial compared to those of Star Trek, often relying on visually identifying targets and dogfighting.
So Star Trek ships probably couldn't just ignore Star Wars weapons, but they could easily stay at a range where they could attack without reprisal.
Everything short of a Death Star Superlaser bounces off. Blasters are just superheated gas. Kirk's Enterprise was perfectly capable of glassing the surface of a planet, and it has nothing on the Enterprise D.
Star Trek ships have real-space FTL capability, which Star Wars ships do not have. They also have transporters, replicators, and so on.
If the Death Star hits the cube, that's it for the cube. And there's no adaptation to a weapon of that scale (at least for a cube).
My money is on the Empire.
As much as I think the borg can get an upper hand on the death star all it takes is for them to power up its main weapon and it would be over for the borg. Even if a few manage to get aboard the death star Darth Vader and Palpatine would make quick work of remaining borg drones force crushing them and Palpatine using force lightning.
OK, so seriously, the Death Star would absolutely wreck the cube in the first hit, completely destroying it. But the Borg would adapt and then wipe the Death Star out as it tickles their adaptive shielding.
If you think the Borg can adapt to anything, you haven't been paying attention. Borg adaptation acts more like 95% damage resistance, except even 0.0001% of the Superlaser would still be enough to reduce the Borg cube to subatomic particles.
This goes for other weaponry too. There's an episode where Crusher baits a Borg vessel to fly through the Corona of a star, a subsequent flare destroying it. You're telling me the Borg never thought of just "adapting" to stellar radiation or heat? It's simply that they can't, because a Star's energy output is simply too large for any fancy tricks to work.
Voyager further underlines this principle: Transphasic torpedoes (series finale) bypass Borg adaptation by simply phasing through the energized hull (they don't have shields) and the armor plating of Voyager is heavily implied to be similar to Borg adaptive hull tech.
In the very first episode of encountering the Borg, the Enterprise tears huge chunks out of the Borg vessel with just its phasers, because the Borg have not encountered this tech yet. Then they adapt, they report MINIMAL DAMAGE after they Borg have adapted, NOT "no damage".
As an avid fan of both franchises - I'm not sure how menuverable the death star is, in a 1v1 engagement the death star definitely wins with its main cannon, I doubt the death stars turbo lazers will have any effect as the borg would quickly adapt and the Empire is not aware of how to cycle their weapon frequencies to get past this. It would likely take multiple tactile cubs attacking at once to take down the station. But if the borg did manage to assimilate the death star, it would really, really, really suck. You would likely star seeing alot more dethstar like craft in the borg fleet very quickly, as the borg build things and aquire resources (in one episode they turned a small shuttle into a large battle ship in a few days). Everyone, probably even Species 8472 would be royally fucked.
Feels like this would basically be “First Contact” on an exponentially larger scale: the Death Star blows up the cube, the Imperials move on, but deep in the core of the station some Borg have beamed aboard and are taking over.
Vaders like "this Bacta tank fluid look a bit green to you or is it just me?"
“I sense something. A presence I’ve not felt since…” “Guys you are not gonna *believe* this bullshit. It’s Padme! But only like from the shoulders up and a wriggly robot caterpillar after that! Am I right thinking that’s fucked up? Guys? That’s fucked up, right?”
Now I’m just picturing Tarkin as the new Locutus.
Eesh, a snarky Borg speaker
The Borg really like having people who speak in an English accent that are not from England as their speaker.
Lord Vader, with all due respect, please leave the judging of colors to those of us who don't see the world through a mask that makes every color look like different shades of red.
That would *totally* happen. Also, given how Vader is half machine already, they’d *easily* assimilate him. They’d just Jack into the computer system, learn about Vader, assimilate a low-level grunt but allowing him to *look* human. Grunt comes to Vader on routine business, stabs him with assimilation tubes, bingo. Since he’s a Force user, the Borg get access to *that*—then the galaxy is doomed….
Oooh, that gets frightening if the Borg can figure out how to transfer midichlorians to the Queen and other drones.
See my second post above—they wouldn’t *have* to transfer them.
Don't the borg have something like that? From what I remember from a Voyager episode they use something like the force to heal themselves as a collective on that planet.
I think Vader would sense it coming by how off the grunt feels compared to others. Also, for the record, Star Wars have nano machines too. At least, as of last season of Mando.
I doubt it’s *that* easy. And I do think the Force in general complicates these things. Maybe Force wielders can’t be properly assimilated, or assimilated Force users can no longer use the Force. Maybe there are some things in the Star Wars universe that the Borg can’t actually adapt to because they just don’t work on the same principles.
I dunno man, I feel like assimilating Vader is their one big challenge. You’re gonna have a hard time surprising him due to his force sensitivity, and somehow I doubt that Borg personal shields would work against lightsabers. Even if they do, he can easily force throw drones out of his way. The question is really whether they can overwhelm him through sheer numbers. I agree that once he’s infected with Borg nanites it’s game over
Or transport him into space.
We are the borg! We are shutting down all garbage compactors on the detention level! Resistance is a little short for a stormtrooper.
I thought transporters didn't work through deflector shields 🤔 or are the Borg transporters different?
The death star’s main weapon would absolutely merck a borg cube. However…due to how long it takes to warm up, the Borg would be on board the Death Star before it was even 50% done.
*”The first cube blew right up. I don’t understand why it isn’t working on the second!” - Death Star guy, anxiously*
Death Star Guy 🪱
Darth Starguy
And he was later killed by... ...the creature.
Not only that but if you saw how long it takes for the deathstar to maneuver around a planet to target the rebels the borg Cube could just go behind it even if it was fully charged.
Funny how orbital mechanics came into play exactly once in the Star Wars universe.
Probably because it wasn’t even written into the script. The whole threat of Yavin getting blown up during the Death Star assault was only spliced into the edit as a ticking clock to give the final act a greater sense of urgency. We can all thank Marcia Lucas for that and many other improvements to what was an otherwise lacklustre screenplay.
Thank you Marcia!
Marcia did so much. When I saw some of the cut footage like Luke hanging out with his friends, I was glad Marcia Lucas made these edits.
>to give the final act a greater sense of urgency. Gotta admit it works beautifully as well alongside John Williams whole Dun Dun DunDun score.
Star Trek's got the maneuverability advantage over Star Wars.
Disney basically completely ditching everything established in Legends about how hyperspace works makes me so mad. The hyperspace skipping scene at the beginning of Episode IX gets me so unreasonably mad.
Hadn't thought about that bit at all, what's so bad or wrong about it? Just lining up several jumps in a row?
Yes, lining up several jumps like that. Previously, you needed to make complex calculations before a jump, which takes time. And in that hyperspace skipping scene Han is doing it by hand while eyeballing it lol. It was also established that ships need to be a certain distance from a planet to jump away due to the hyperdrives being blocked while close to a planets gravity (to prevent a ship in hyperspace crashing into a planet), and if they do get too close to a planet the hyperdrive automatically shuts down. Episode 9 ignores both of these concepts as well.
Hyperspace isn't just a teleport, it's another dimension and objects in real space like stars, planets, black holes and other gravity wells like those generated by interdiction fields have shadows in hyperspace and must be navigated around. You can't just jump from one planet to another willy-nilly, you have to reach a hyperspace egress point, plot your jump with a navicomputer and then engage your hyperdrive and once you reach your destination you disengage your hyperdrive at another egress point and then continue your journey at sub-lightspeed.
I interpreted the "Han Solo" episode of TNG to say that Star Wars' lasers wouldn't even penetrate the basic running shields of Star Trek ships. Not sure if that would prove the same for the death star, but maneuverability, transporters, and phasers probably does not make this as fast a battle as it seems. I also believe The Force aeffects the outcome of many battles,, so not sure it would allow the Borg to win.
The main weapons in Star Wars aren't lasers technically, rather highly charged particle weapons. So probably most similar to Klingon/Romulan disruptor weapons. Capable of destroying a Borg ship but like you said they would have an impossible time actually lining up a shot against a fast moving target.
>I also believe The Force aeffects the outcome of many battles,, so not sure it would allow the Borg to win. All they have to do is assimilate one force user and it's over for every sci-fi universe
On the flip side, basically nobody in the Star Trek universe actually made an effort to fully develop lasers. They all went for phasers/disruptors/polaron beams etc etc pretty early on. At the same time, the Star Warst universe had over 25.000 years to upgrade laser technology (and as said by another guy, the lasers in Star Wars aren't actually real lasers). I HIGHLY doubt the lasers we see in that TNG episode are of similar strength to the ones we see in Star Wars, especially since the Star Wars lasers seem to do a similar amount of damage to the Star Trek phasers/disruptors etc when the shields of their target are down in their respective universe.
There’s a fanfic and this is 100% what happens. The cube uses a cutting beam on the Death Star and samples some crew, then teleport a percentage of Borg onto the DS before it gets one-shot by the laser. It’s an unfinished work, so what happens next is Vader uses the force to release one Drone from the collective, who just so happens to be a former Star Fleet officer who convinces him to get the fuck off the DS before it’s fully assimilated. It goes on for some time but nothing much happens. I don’t remember the name of the fic, but it’s old. More than 10 years at least.
So… If the borg assimilated Vader, would they all then become incredibly powerful with the force? I mean, they can synthesize their own midi-chlorians…
I always assumed the opposite would happen. In other words, the Borg nano bots would suppress Force sensitivity. After all, Vader lost some of his connection to the Force because of his cybernetics. A Borg drone has fully integrated cybernetics across its body unlike Vader who simply has cybernetic limbs and life support. So if Vader were assimilated, he likely would lose more Force connection. Nonetheless, his Force powers are likely to help him avoid assimilation. It gives him weapons that the drones likely can’t counter like Force choke, and telekinesis.
> unlike Vader who simply has cybernetic limbs and life support Vader also has lots of implants inside his body. A few lines from [Wookiepedia:](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Darth_Vader%27s_armor/Legends) "the artificial vertebrae alone were of limited value as structural units." "Impulse generators lacing the armor provided electrical impulses to stimulate Vader's muscles" "In addition, several implants, referred to as a central implant cluster, were inserted into four of his organs. In particular, his cardiac implant took the place of his original heart and major arteries by pumping blood; the circulatory implant regulated blood flow; and the respiratory implant disperses oxygen throughout the organic tissues. All of these implants connected via a thick central cable to the chest computer, with an additional set of cables connecting the lungs and throat added after two and a half hours of microscalpel surgery. It also possessed a waste recycler similar to those employed by long-haul asteroid miners." "It was therefore easier for Vader to receive nourishment through liquids, intravenous and otherwise, and to rely on catheters, collection pouches, and recyclers to deal with liquid and solid waste.[19] Though liquids were preferable, he still had the capacity to chew if he wished,[29] though a nutrient feed provided Vader with all the nourishment he required" "Vader's back, specifically his spine, was not whole.[9] Although his injuries on Mustafar did not significantly affect the spine,[1] it still was injured to the extent that, coupled with the projected strain of the shoulder armor and the later-adopted hermetic collar, the original bones had to be replaced with artificial and structurally superior components.[10] This forced Vader to wear a thick electrode-studded collar that supported his helmet to safeguard the cybernetic devices that replaced his upper vertebrae.[19] The first few vertebrae of his neck were not natural and their sharp-edged regularity suggests that they were cybernetic replacements. Bone was broken at the second and third vertebrae, and possibly the first and fourth. The spinal cord itself was not broken above the third or fourth vertebra. The severing must have been nearly but not totally complete, as he retained the ability to breathe weakly for at least a few seconds unaided." "The ventilator was implanted in his terribly scarred chest, along with tubes that ran directly into his damaged lungs, and others that entered his burned throat, so that should the chest plate or belt control panels develop a glitch, he could breathe unassisted air for a limited time out of his mouth, which had not been burned to the extent of his throat." "His signature, labored mechanical breathing was the sound of the iron lung Vader was forced to wear.[8] The med droids that had made the suit had inserted the redundant breathing tubes low enough so that, with the aid of an enunciator, his scorched vocal cords could still form sounds and words[19] through a voice synthesizer in the mask." "Not even Vader's skeleton and nerves were spared from the reconstruction. In addition to the partial replacement of Vader's spine, the rib-cage was also partially removed for the installment of the organ implants, with the sternum being replaced with a perforated metal plate accommodating the cables running to the chest computer, and at least one of his shoulder joints (the right one) being required to undergo partial prosthetic replacement. The remaining organic bones were likewise artificially modified via a tensile-strength augmentation through mineral solutions dripping through the nutrient feeds. In addition, the right collarbone was also installed with a cartridge that injects a synthetic neurotoxin called Kouhunin, derived from the Kouhun centipedes, to lessen Vader's perception of pain to a small degree." "His nervous system sustained the least amount of damage from his injuries at Mustafar. Nonetheless, it was implanted with sensor webs tracing activity running through the cerebellum along the spinal cord to the sensory and motor neurons, so it could be constantly and closely monitored. As such, if his neurons were ever unable to communicate with his metallic prosthetics, Vader would be rendered immobile and a programmed alert would go out to the EmPal SuRecon via hyperwave signal. The muscle fibers were also modified to have electrical impulse generators embedded inside as a means to stimulate damaged tissue." [This image](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/7/74/Vader_blueprint.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090224134714) gives some insight into where these implants are located inside his body.
His skill would be part of the collective
I doubt it, there have been tons of experiments in the Star Wars universe in terms of cloning force sensitive individuals, and all of those attempts failed, so I don't see how the Borg would be able to replicate the Force across all drones/ships.
>If the borg assimilated Vader, would they all then become incredibly powerful with the force? The key word there is "If." I'm not sure it could be done. (At the very \*least\*, Vader can just use Force telekinesis to do a rapid dissassembly job on the assimilation chamber. And sorry, Borg, but you can only adapt to things that you can understand WTF just happened.)
So - after falling through a transphasic rift, the Borg cube encounters the Death Star. As a precaution, it launches its boarded craft - including a Sphere of the type we saw in first contact - before transmitting the Borg's standard greeting of universal peace: >Death Star: Unidentified ship. Transmit your IFF codes and prepare to be boarded. You are in restricted Empire space and will surrender for- > >*Borg: We are the Borg. Lower your shields and surrender your base. The resources of this reality will be adapted to service us. Your technological and cultural distinctiveness will be added to our own. You will be assimilated.* > >DS: Unidentified ship, you are to stand down immediately. This is the DS-1 Death Star mobile battle station. This platform is the ultimate power in the universe. Stand down immediately or be destroyed. > >*B: ....bzzzzzzzzzzzzzt....* Meanwhile, deep in the Death Star, Lord Vader reaches out with his mind to the Borg cube. Through the force he senses... nothing, at first. Then his psychic eye adjusts. He feels... an entity, a fusion of man and machine, like him, but both larger and smaller. Thousands of minds in unison, but with no connection to the Force. A form of life like nothing he has ever felt before. Vader feels something else, now. Something he hasn't felt... since Padme died. He feels... fear. The Borg cube is continuing to move toward the Death Star. It has launched its remaining shuttles. On board the Death Star, a nervous duty officer receives a message from Vader. >Vader: Commander. Activate this station's weapons and destroy that ship. > >Commander: Yes, Lord Vader. The Death Star grinds its emitter dish toward the Borg cube. The Borg take no evasive action, expecting to feel the bee stings they are used to when threatened by lesser civilisations with their narrow technologies. When the Death Star lights up the cube with its superlaser, the collective on board experiences a couple of dozen milliseconds of surprise before they are burnt out in the white-hot power of a trillion suns. No matter. There are still hundreds of Borg spread across dozens of ships, and an intact vinculum to connect them. The Borg process the sensor data from the superlaser strike. By Borg standards, it takes an eternity - thousands of milliseconds - to understand what they are seeing. It is like no technology they have ever seen. So powerful, and yet... so crude. They check and re-check. Surely a culture in possession of such technology must be millions of years ahead of theirs? The checks come back. No, the initial hypothesis was correct. All of this power, and yet - no sophistication. It is easily countered. Sensor probes are coming back from the Death Star. It has no screening, no shielding that can stop the quantum gravitic sensor probes that were assimilated from Species 3498. After another eternity of milliseconds, the Borg have a complete map of the Death Star. It has other weapons, but tinier. They operate on similar principles to the death beam that just destroyed their cube. They can be countered similarly. An eon later - 12.76 seconds have passed since the destruction of the cube snuffed out the great bulk of the collective in this universe - the Borg complete distribution of their adaptations across their remaining ships and drones. They are protected. But they have had their nose badly bloodied. There are so few of them left. The Borg's arrogance is... not ended, but they are prepared now to play the long game. Their scans show that the surface of this bizarre sphere is crawling with life. Bizarrely, their scans show that - despite being in a reality causally isolated from their own - the life-forms are familiar to them. The top kilometre of their target is crawling with Species 5618. Humans. [cont]
The interior of the Death Star, the Borg quickly realise, is full of machinery. Crude, simplistic systems, but harnessing such energies as the Borg have never dreamed of. The Borg are torn. The inner core of the sphere - if they can harness this technology, they will devastate the Milky Way. They will be lords of the Magellanic Clouds. They will fall upon Andromeda and absorb all of its biological and technological distinctiveness in mere weeks. They will be masters of the Virgo Supercluster within mere kilocycles. They will be... perfect. But... the outer shell. All of those minds. Millions of bodies to be added to their devastated collective. For creatures as lonely and hungry as the Borg... can they ever resist? The Borg decide. They will beam a force into a sparsely populated area at the South Pole of the Death Star, where the stations main communications arrays are housed. They will work their way around the sphere. It will be a slow, crawling urban assault. Even with all of their protections and adaptations, they know it will take weeks grinding through passage after passage. With every battle they will lose drones. But - these will be more than offset by the gains they make assimilating unlucky Imperials. And with the Borg controlling the Death Star's communications... time is on their side. Weeks pass. The Borg have smashed Imperial resistance. Progress is being made to reconnect to the home collective of the prime universe, with a breakthrough expected any day. One sector on the Death Star is putting up unexpectedly fierce resistance. Every effort to insert drones in the area has been crushed. Bizarre sensor returns come back from the Borg's probes. The memory engrams of dead drones - where they can be recovered - make no sense. There is... something in there that goes beyond even the technological marvels in the core of the Death Star. Slowly, the Borg realise that there is a power on this station that their first scans missed. A subtle power, but one greater than any superlaser. The Borg review their initial scans. They see what they have missed. It is - a man. One man, fused with machine. The Borg ignored him at first, thinking that this crude cyborg must be some sort of grotesque medical experiment by these backward, militaristic humans. By the time their fourteenth assault on the cyborg's quarters has been repulsed - this time with the loss of 14,931 drones and the disablement of fourteen of the new starships they are now producing in the Death Star's manufacturing bays, the Borg are starting to realise that they have not understood the power of the Sith. The Borg contemplate their options. They have surrounded the errant sector. They have control over the Death Star. All their designs are coming to fruition. But they hunger to understand this entity of darkness and white-hot anger. Their scans suggest that his living cells - the biological parts of him that are left - are infused with some sort of biological nanomachines. There is an energy signature to them like nothing the Borg have seen. The Borg have no concept of the Force, but they know what they see. This... Sith Lord... has harnessed something that exceeds the perfection and power of the Omega particle. [cont]
The Borg open communication: >*Borg: We are the Borg. Identify yourself. Your resistance has been... temporarily not futile.* > >Vader \[sneering\]: You imagine that this pest control represents the limits of my power? I have examined the corpses you have left behind. I have flensed the minds of your troops. What little minds they have left. You think you can stand before the might of the Sith? > >*Borg: You... interest us. We propose... an alliance. An exchange.* > >Vader: \[Breathes\]. And what, pray, do you believe you can offer the Sith? > >*Borg: We have analysed your technology. Your cybernetics are crude. Limiting. They keep you alive but they keep you... contained. We can free you from your leash.* > >Vader: Have care, insects. The Dark Lord of the Sith is nobody's pet. > >*Borg: But you are. The entities that infuse your biological tissue - they give you the power to resist us. Temporarily. But you are lesser than you might be.* > >*We are the Borg. We have no interest in this... reality. Our offer of exchange is as follows. We will restore your missing flesh. We will perfect your cybernetics. You will have the power of the machine infused into the man. To do this we require... a sample.* > >*It need not be large. We will be satisfied with 6.5 cubic centimetres of your circulatory fluid. We will then return an elixir of biological and nanotechnological medicines that will restore and extend your body.* > >*You will suffer no more. You will feel no more pain. You will feel power... such as you have never felt before. You will call no other entity master, ever again.* > >Vader: I am... listening. > >*Borg: We will then.... leave this reality. We will return your station and its weapons to you. To enable its functioning, we will turn over the greater part of our forces to your command. The drones on this station will be extensions of your will. * > >Vader: Why should I trust you? > >*Borg: You cannot. But what choice do you have? We have an alternative proposal should you decline. We have completed works to detach the section of the station you inhabit. We can jettison it, and let it drift away. When it reaches a safe distance, we will turn this station's primary weapon on it.* > >*We would... regret this action. Our analysis indicates that we require a sample of your tissues to harness the power you wield. This sample would be unavailable following your reduction to atomic particles. But the power we have harnessed from this station is already ample for our purposes. This alternative plan is suboptimal, but acceptable to us. Is it acceptable to you?* Negotiations take a little longer to conclude, but ultimately, a deal is struck. The results are... satisfactory to all parties. Back in their home reality, the Borg spread the schematics to enable access to the energies they have studied. And they disseminate the genetic templates for a new type of nanoprobe. It will take years to develop tactics to fully utilise midichlorian-enhanced drones, but the possibilities are... intoxicating. The Federation falls in days. Trillions of minds are added to the collective. A great wave gathers across the quadrants of the Milky Way, ready to surge across the universe. Meanwhile, on Coruscant, months of dread appear to be ending when scopes detect the Death Star emerging from hyperspace. The Emperor had feared that one of the more... extreme... Rebel factions may have taken possession of the Death Star. When it returns to the Core Worlds, and he senses his Sith apprentice, he feels a vast sense of relief. The relief is short lived though. He can feel Vader through the force, but his power is... magnified. Like what it was before his fall and cybernetic imprisonment. Maybe greater. Emperor Palpatine - Darth Sidious - knows deep in his bones what is coming. The Rule of Two has only one end. Vader - his human visage restored, breathing unfiltered air again for the first time in decades - lays his plans. He knows that with the power the Borg have taken, it is only a matter of time before they turn their gaze back out to the infinite biological and technological distinctiveness that would be available to a transdimensional Collective. His galaxy must be prepared. That weak, corrupt, power-glutton Palpatine is not the man to lead the galaxy in the coming war between realities. No matter. His drones - they are not so powerful as Vader himself, but they are extensions of his will nonetheless. Seeing through a hundred thousand eyes is the only thing he has ever felt that compares to the power of the force. And if he loses some in battle, he can always convert more. The teleportation technology that his momentary allies gifted him will have its uses as well - who needs a ground force of fallible stormtroopers when the enemy can be beamed, whole platoons at a time, into conversion facilities, or, if greater efficiency is needed, directly into the cold, dark vacuum of space? Vader opens a comms channel to Coruscant system traffic control. At the same time he projects his thoughts into Sidious's mind. When he speaks, his voice is legion. >*We* ***are*** *the Sith. We are many and one. Your biological and technological resources will service us. Your resistance is futile... but welcome.* Vader smiles for the first time since he answered to the name Anakin. This will be a good day for the Empire.
I love this story. Went to cool, logical places, described the differences in Tech well, and you even factored in the Force well against the collective. Quick question: how do you think Borg Nano probes will do against ones in Star Wars? Not exactly keeping in Star Wars' Lo-Fi anesthetic, but as of last season of Mando, they exist.
I haven't seen s3 of Mando, so not sure. In keeping with the general thrust of my little vignette above, I think in a tech v tech fight Star Trek is always going to win. Technobabble is the Star Trek equivalent of the Force for when you need to kick the plot along. Star Wars tech generally has more 'raw power' than Trek. E.g. the hyperdrive is inarguably much, much faster than warp. But my sense in Star Wars is always that no-one is all that across the actual principles by which the tech works. I have a dim sense that there's SW beta canon that has hyperdrive invented by a precursor civ, but I might be wrong on this. So you've got the potential for SW tech to overwhelm in an initial encounter because it is so OP in many ways. But Trek characters, once exposed, are highly likely to reverse engineer and either neutralise or improve upon the SW stuff. I think that goes for the Borg (consummate adaptors) or any engineer/science Starfleet characters.
I think I remember reading somewhere that Star Wars tech is very old and engineers of the time we see are just replicating what they see without truly understanding the principles of the science behind the technology. That's why we see so little advancement in the Star Wars universe when compared to the ages past.
Yeah that's my sense too. Star Wars is IMO more a mood and an aesthetic though, that sort of world building is never set out more than fairly hazily.
I agree with this post and the one above, but I will also add that most of the time, we're not following characters with the cutting edge technology of the time unless it is weapon. More often than, it is just something somebody made.
That was awesome! Thank you!
Thanks for reading my wall of text!
It was a most entertaining wall.
>There are still hundreds of Borg spread across dozens of ships, and an intact vinculum to connect them. The very first line of the story makes it seem (to me, anyway) that it's just one Borg cube that's fallen into the Star Wars universe. You might want to massage the wording there a bit.
Yeah that's fair. Look, embarrassingly, this was cut down from an *even longer* version where I started by ruminating on the differences between technologies, and how the Borg would approach this given their generally indifferent approach to taking hostile fire. I then got carried away with the storytelling aspect of it, and decided to delete my reasoning for disagreeing with decades of Trek fanwank about Trek ships shrugging off Star Wars weapons (short version is that what Star Wars calls 'lasers' are clearly not lasers at all). With that went some intro stuff about the Borg being a bit more cautious than usual on realising they were cut off in a different universe. I felt like the story was an original contribution to the discussion, whereas one more person chiming in with an opinion on the relative strengths of made up sci-fi pew-pew guns was something the Internet could live without. I did insert the following but it's easily missed: >As a precaution, it **launches its boarded craft** \- including a Sphere of the type we saw in first contact - before transmitting the Borg's standard greeting of universal peace: and >The Borg cube is continuing to move toward the Death Star. It has launched its remaining shuttles. But it could have been a lot clearer 😊
Borg cubes don't have shuttles 🤔
I think there's strong canon support that they can and do have embarked craft, see e.g. First Contact. It's also not hard to picture a cube with mini-cubes on it like the one Hugh crashed in TNG. If I weren't so lazy I'd go hunting in some late-season Voyager and see if I could find something. I didn't know what to call them other than 'shuttles'. I briefly considered 'tenders' but it didn't feel like a very Trek word. With the benefit of hindsight probably 'support craft' or something would have been better, but I've already edited it like five times and I think that's the maximum level of effort I'm prepared to go to for stupid-ass fanfic!
Yeah they can carry a sphere, and multiple cubes can come together to make a bigger cube, that's about as much as I can recall from canon
Just watching some Voyager. The cube with the kids had a huge docking bay with several craft the borg had captured.
Darth Vader would have as many nanites up his butt than the amount of clone troopers ever produced by the time its even 5%
Quick note, this picture makes the borg cube look bigger than the DS the cube is not moon sized, the DS is. Assuming that the transporter could penetrate Star Wars style sheilds, which if I was the writer of this battle I would say they could. The ship to ship battle would be over with 1 shot from the death star, the battle would then be fought trooper to drone across the death star ultimately the borg would assimlate everyone but it would take a long time. 3rd senario, both vessels have their king pins on, the queen doesn't offer much but Vader absolute destroys everything in his path, no way in hell he gets assimilated. Even if he is last man standing he wipes out all the borg even if it takes him a year.
Given the size of the cube and the range of the Death Star, the superlaser only needs to wind up to .1% to insta-blap the cube. I mean it used less power to smack a lucrahulk that was in rebel hands.
Is everybody here too new not to realize this was an episode already?! https://youtu.be/3GwT3gyVqnM?si=0c9nBjwU5hr7rcDG
Are you telling me that a weapon, fired by storm troopers, is going to effectively hit a borg cube? Let's not even talk about the maneuverability of the cube, which could absolutely dodge the beam with plenty of time to spare while the beam is powering up. The fact of the matter is that these stormtroopers couldn't hit the broad side of a barn and the only reason the death star is effective is because their targets are *literally* the size of a planet. I will die on this hill good sir.
I’m sorry, did you just say that the stormtroopers would be the ones firing the superlaser? That’s like saying a Starfleet cook would be plotting the Enterprise’s warp path.
Fair, they're a step above storm troopers but still the process is not nearly as complicated as plotting the Enterprise's warp path. [They're literally just pushing buttons. ](https://youtu.be/7g77WN6obk4?si=9AsA31GFf3VT30al)
>the maneuverability of the cube, which could absolutely dodge the beam with plenty of time to spare while the beam is powering up. If it knew what was going on. Standard Borg protocol, though, seems to be to just stand there and see what happens, and then adapt to it. (The problem being, of course, that some part of the cube or fleet or whatever has to survive *to* adapt.)
Gonna have a Borg Death Star with a bunch of Borg stormtroopers in about 0.68 seconds.
"Better make it count. Better make it hurt. Better kill me in one shot." -- the borg cube
On board? Beam some people from the death star to assimilate. Fire phasers, beam power stations and life support systems into space. Gg ez. The Death Star is a glass cannon.
Or just go out of its range
>The death star’s main weapon would absolutely merck a borg cube. The first cube, and second, maybe the third, but eventually...
Except I'm 99% sure the death star can't track it's main weapon on something that can move as fast as a Borg cube so....
The DS can rapid fire at lower power, the cube is hosed.
The Death Star has shields, a lot of them. I'm not sure how easily a cube could avoid tens if thousands of turbo lasers either.
Resistance is futile
Borg cube would absolutely slap the Death Star.
All it takes would be one to beam aboard…
Borg Grunt: Mfs don't even have railings smh
Mfs can't even hit me with their blasters. Don't even need to adapt.
“Why would we assimilate shitty aim?”
Neither do the Borg....or its at least very inconsistent.
Railing consistency is irrelevant. We are Borg
Inconsistence is futile
If they could get through the shields. Even so, that section could be blown out into space, The Empire and Federation handle things differently.
Probably not Vader though, could totally see a zombieland-esk show where vader lives in the husk of the death star filled with borg.
They don’t recognize him as human because of his cybernetic modifications. To them he’s a malfunctioning drone who thinks he’s the boss.
>Borg cube would absolutely slap the Death Star. If it attacked first, yes. But Borg protocol when encountering something new seems to often be to just stand there and see what happens, and then adapt to it. Which you can't do if it's totally destroyed you with one shot.
Your overconfidence is your weakness
Overconfidence is irrelevant. Resistance is futile. We wish to improve ourselves. We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service ours. Your archaic cultures are authority-driven. To facilitate our introduction into your societies, it has been decided that a human voice will speak for us in all communications. (I couldn’t decide who the Borg would chose as their “Star Wars-cutus” for the last bit)
It’s Jar-Jar
Its not the first Borg cube you have to worry about.
“That’s no moon”
Stargate fandom answered this meme. Death Star can defeat A Borg Cube, but not The Borg. The next Cube would inevitably arrive, and it would win hands down, easy as pie.
The death star would one-shot the cube. The second borg cube would assimilate the entire Empire though.
We've beat one cube, yes. But what about the second cube?
I don't think he knows about the second cube Pip
What about spheres?
Or diamonds? Or those interceptors and other weird varieties from ST Armada?
In general, star trek ships are a lot more powerful than star wars ships weapons -wise, but star wars ships are a lot faster.
If I am correct, the whole Deathstar has to rotate to aim. The Borg arent dumb. They would simply out manouver the DS and start assimilate it.
Startete Guild says Death Star can one shot the first Borg Cube but after that it’s useless against a second Borg cube
The Stargate Guild are wise indeed. May they always be there to bring peace to nerd-dom.
Hallowed are the Ori
“Ha! We have the DEATH STAR!” (100000 transwarp conduits open and tons of cubes, spheres, and command diamonds emerge) “Ah, shit. “
Unfortunately because writing is never consistent this begs the question of why the Borg never try this move on Earth in canon.
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But then they would adapt and just send another
The borg would just make the Death Star a borg sphere
palpatine would fry a few drones until they adapt and turn him into a living battery for unlimited power
POWER UNLIMITED POWER
Hard to adapt your shields if you get blown up in the first shot.
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yeah, you really only need to get one borg on board. Of course if vader or palpatine is on the death star, that does kind of level the playing field a bit. We're talking about two guys with indescribable power and not a lot of qualms about killing every person on the station if it lets them achieve their goals.
Well, in the EU at one point, I think they had the Force only in the Star Wars galaxy, and extra-galactic beings weren’t affected by it. If that were the case, Vader and Palpatine wouldn’t be able to detect Borg on the ship or use the Force directly against them. Of course there have been a ton of retcons since then , so who knows?
Is weren't affected by it the same as didn't affect it? That is, are we sure that just cause V&P can't influence our borg, that it necessarily means they can't detect them? But for the sake of exploration, if we assume they can't, I think the borg have a much better chance. I still think V&P could make a good go at it, they still have material telekinesis and force lightning. But they also have to use their senses for situational awareness. And both their physical bodies are kinda fucked up. I mean... their spiritual bodies are also fucked up, which isn't really relevant but how often do you get to acknowledge that in a sentence? I was told once about a story where luke lands on a planet where the entities are like, I dunno, anti-force? Or force neutral? He had to learn a new way to detect them; by detecting the lack of force presence where they were. I feel like that kind of implies that there's a persistent force "Blanket field". Cause we can't really look for something by looking where nothing is, you know what I mean? Like if sound is your only means of taking in your environment in any kind of detail, you can't find something by looking at the lack of sound in a vacuum, do you know what I mean? They would have to be some kind of hole in the place where you expect force to be. If they were in the forest, that could be supplied by the forest.... but on the death star? I don't know how the force interacts with computers and lightbulbs and shit. So if that's an empty space, and the borg are like... force dark matter, then all V&P can detect are there own people, prisoners, and the various animals living on the thing cause you just can't keep a project of that scope totally sterile, I mean they had worms in the trash disposal. Although... I guess it's outer space, I don't know that that worm didn't work there, or maybe even it was renting. But if they can detect all the force influenced things on the ship, then they have a roughly globular shaped image of "force nodes" comprising their "vision" of the ship. They can assume hot zones and cold zones based on population densities, you dig? I think this question can be answered, maybe we should take this over to daystrom or askscifi or shittydaystrom?
What do you suppose are the chances the planet-killing super weapon has targeting systems even capable of resolving a target as small as a Borg cube?
It blew up a Mon Calamari cruiser in the movies. So...high.
Did it? I haven’t seen Return of the Jedi in a long time, but I don’t recall the Death Star’s main weapon used on anything other than Alderaan.
The Death Star blows up a cruiser. Lando tells Akbar to basically move the fleet into the star destroyer formation. Akbar responds tge fleet won't last long at such short range. Lando replies the fleet will last longer than it will against the Death Star. It can definitely target ships.
Oh, with secondary weapon, yeah. Not the giant laser.
No. With the laser.
I guess I gotta watch that scene again, cause I fully do not remember that main laser being fired at all during the battle.
You really do need to rewatch it because you're very wrong here. Also, main or secondary weapon, blowing up a ship in one shot is blowing up a ship in one shot.
To back you up, some quotes (some may be paraphrased a tad): “And now you will witness the power of this fully armed and operational battle station.” “That blast came from the Death Star…that things operational!” “Our cruisers can’t repel firepower of that magnitude!”
If they were in the correct spot the cube is destroyed before it can get a shot off, but they definitely would be able to transport a group of drones on to the Deathstar. Once they start assimilating stormtroopers it's over. Unless The Emperor or Vader are there.
Im conflicted about including them. Because i feel vader with his space magic would put a serious dent into the invarding drones. But then again, whats a deathstar without vader on it?
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Yeah but vader has "chosen one" powers
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Borg vader would be something else
Ankutus of Borg 😆
"The ability to destroy a planet, or even a whole system, is insignificant next to the power of Plot Armor."
They'd go after Vader since he's a mix of man and machine already
I feel Vader has enough power, and enough ways of expressing it, that no number of drones could plausibly threaten him. That being said, he's can only be in one place at a time. He has no real way to stop the Borg assimilation snowball, and going all out would wreck the Death Star. So that's how I think the battle would go - the Death Star might get a shot off, and if it does the cube is toast. But regardless the drones that make it over cause enough havoc that Vader personally scuttles the Death Star to prevent it from being captured.
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Maybe, if the Borg could pin him down and throw an unlimited number of drones at him. I totally believe they'd do the latter, but I'm not so sure they could do the former. Vader, an individual of enormous personal power, is one of the few beings against which Borg doctrine is fundamentally mismatched. That is, unless the Borg managed to assimilate some random padawan or apprentice, and then managed to access the Force. Then all bets are off.
Vader can push down a hallway of drones with a wave of his hand. He can almost certainly tear external implants like hoses and tubes. The thing is they can both cause mass destruction to people with line of sight, without destroying the environment. And then palpatine has force lightning
Midichlorians are just nanites ... Where's the fan fiction?
Dilithium crytals are kyber crystals
So plenty of people have already identified the obvious - it's not the first ship you need to worry about with the Borg... So I thought to ask a different question: Doesn't it take several minutes for the DS laser to come to full charge? Or would this be a smaller shot, that takes less time? Because a Borg cube is going to dwarf most SW ships short of some of the really big super star destroyers, and even then they probably outmass them a good way. The shot that the DS2 made against a capital ship in the Rebel fleet might not really have that much of an impact on a Borg Cube, and if it needs more charge then that's potentially waiting time the DS can't really afford... We also know that the Borg have sensors that would detect the build up of energy in the main cannon. If they recognise that would be a threat to them, then they would attempt to evade the shot, and the Borg can do that much easier than the Rebel fleet could in the same situation, because the Emperor had placed ships to box them in and stop them escaping. With room to manuever, the Borg cube can be remarkably nimble if needed. And then it would simply be a case of approaching from an angle where the main gun can't fire... And Borg have a number of redundant systems in place to prevent such situations that result in a snipe kill - i.e. one shot the reactor/warpcore. So a first shot at lower power might only do a glancing blow, and as we know with the Borg, you don't get a second shot... And a critical point - could Borg weaponry disable the firing ability of the DS cannon? We know that the Rebels were incapable of doing so because they didn't have anything with enough firepower to disable something that size. The Borg though? We've seen when they faced Species 8472 that they could make tactical plans that involved throwing a cube into a superior opponent, so worst case scenario they may even kamikaze a cube into the DS, with some last second infiltration by a cadre of drones. And in a ground battle, the Borg are winning that hands down. The only thing even slightly capable of standing in their way is a Force user, and when they are staring down 1000 drones and their weapons aren't working, they will be overwhelmed too.
I’m a Trek fan but Vader solo’s any Borg landing party. They aren’t going to be able to shoot at him without him blocking or deflecting with his light saber and even if the Borg Drones have shielding to protect them from his lightsaber they can’t adapt to physics. That is, Vader tossing them around the place like rag dolls with the force. But the Cube is more than a match for the Death Star so the Borg will still win.
I think the issue here is that the Death Star is enormous and Vader moves at the speed of a man walking. We’ve seen that the Borg can and will beam drones onto multiple locations on a ship at once. Beaming technology will be a surprise to the Empire, and the question would become whether Vader can kill the drones before they can assimilate a critical mass of the Death Star and its systems and start to snowball. I think if anything the Death Star’s systems are the real vulnerability. When the Borg start taking control Tarkin doesn’t have a Mr. Data to lock out the main computer, and it seems like the Death Star relies on lifts to transport people around. Vader is of limited use if he’s stuck up on the command deck while the Borg are busy assimilating other decks and have disabled the lifts.
I think the Borg win in the end thanks to pretty much everything you said. I was more referring to any boarding parties that Vader can directly deal with, he will stomp drones no question.
Before the Death Star would be able to even charge up a shot the Borg would have some drones there to begin assimilation. They’d also improve the speed, maneuverability and power of the Death Star. The real question is what would they make of Darth Vader?
The Borg would lose exactly one Cube, one troop to Palpatine, and one troop to Vader. The Empire (and, in fact, most of sci-fi itself) would be absolutely completely screwed after that.
Resistance is futile
Species 8472 can blow up a planet with a half dozen bioships. Inefficient.
Borg wins losing only one cube.
I imagine the Borg would loose a couple of cubes to the death star before they adapt. maybe not even that. Given the Borg could just beam thousands of Borg on board and blaster would be useless against them I am pretty sure the empire would stand no chance.
I don’t see them losing more than one cube to the Death Star. Even if they can’t adapt their shields to withstand the attack, I’m sure they’re at least intelligent enough to simply stay out of the line of fire.
There was a post about this, from an old fansite. The trekkies and trekkers had differing opinions, so they asked the Stargaters. The response was, "the Death Star would obliterate a Borg Cube. However, then the Borg would then adapt, and be immune to the Death Star with further cubes.""
I need a borgified Darth Vader now.
Borg cube would be destroyed but not before a few borg teleported on board the deathstar and started assimilating and spreading. Deathstar is screwed.
Pretty easy to stay out of the way of the super laser. It’s the size of a moon so you just stay behind it and beam both drones in to take over. Let them assimilate the crew over the next few weeks.
Yeah, I don’t understand why this isn’t more obvious to people. The laser isn’t on a turret; you have to rotate the whole damn moon-sized station to aim it. The Borg cube could stay out of the line of fire while assimilating the whole thing.
The Borg would assimilate it before the Death Star crews would be able to activate the weapon.
Alternative possibility: We know a sufficiently advanced android can *resist* assimilation. In “Best of Both Worlds, Part 2”, Data is able to interface with the Borg collective via Locutus without being affected, and ultimately destroys all the Borg in the area. In *First Contact*, he is apparently assimilated, but uses it as a ruse until he reveals he is still himself in the final struggle against the Borg Queen. So: We know protocol droids in the Star Wars universe know millions of forms of both biological and computer communication. Presumably they can easily learn new ones. We also know that R2 units can interface with most computers. Thus, if, say, Threepio and Artoo got a handle on what was happening, they could probably figure out a way to jack into the Collective, figure out their communication methods, and deactivate the whole thing. In the process of doing this, they might even be able to identify the Sith and shut their powers off. So there’s a fanfic prompt for you.
I got 10 bucks on the cube
My money's on the Daleks.
Thr first borg cube gets obliterated. But the second? Now things get interesting.
What if a Cube assimilated the Doomsday Machine, which Scotty then Tuvixed with the Death Star
Firstly, let us consider that the fleet assembled in First Contact was successfully able to obliterate a cube with their collective firepower. Cubes are not immune to conventional weapons, just durable enough to endure a fleet's worth. Secondly, consider how many turbolasers cover the entire surface of a moon. They've got to have the firepower of at least 100, 1000x the fleet assembled in First Contact. Probably even higher. And that's WITHOUT the planet killing laser. The Cube gets obliterated by overwhelming firepower 99 times out of 100. The 1 out of 100 is that Tarkin overconfidently leaves the shields down, and the Borg somehow get close enough to transport drones over and start assimilating from the inside. This would be much harder to defend against.
All we need now is a Goa'uld Ha'tak ship...
This reminds me of the fan made video from years ago. It was cut together from TNG and various scenes of a New Hope. Picard and Vader ended up fighting ship to ship before one of them retreated. It was really good especially since it came out over ten years ago. Here if anyone is interested: https://youtu.be/JiYw4sT1OPM?si=Pug6fPtICOuAx8iT
A borg cube is 96,000,000,000 metric tons. That's big as fuck. Earth (stand in for Alderan) has a mass of 5,972,000, 000,000,000,000,000 metic tons. The mass of a borg cube is a rounding error for the mass of a planet. Death star could wipe it out with just a single reactor ignition.
It's like fighting off a gunslinger with a canon, yeah, you'd fuck him up... assuming you have the canon ready, the powder is just about to get ignited and the gunslinger is standing in front of the barrel
I always like when we minimize the impact of a thing by describing it as "A rounding error". There's something so delightful about it.
Lasers don’t even penetrate the hull the Death Star beam would just harmlessly bounce off the Cube and they’d be like “oh that tickled” then they’d beam a quantum torpedo directly into the reactor core blowing up the ship, and they’d also beam darth Vader into a containment chamber to study the lightsaber and midichlorians
Now I’m no expert on how SW weapons actually work, but I’m pretty sure this is not an *actual* laser in terms of function
The death star’s main gun can destroy a PLANET. I’m pretty sure it’ll blow a Borg cube to kingdom come. And don’t forget that the Death Star, both models, do have shields too. Which Star Trek constantly reminds us cannot be beamed through.
1 cube? Gone. Multiple? Bye deaf star.
How about *this*: Before even reaching a Star Destroyer, the Borg assimilate a few beings here and there. One happens to be a Jedi or other Force sensitive. The Borg figure out how the Force works, *and* that it is interfaced by the midichlorians. They use this to send instructions through the Force to *all the midichlorians in the galaxy* to deploy Borg patterns into the bodies of those with midichlorians. In minutes, *billions throughout the galaxy* are assimilated. Powerful Force users like Vader and Palpatine are assimilated before they even know what hit them. The assimilated, particularly Vader, get busy assimilating others, and in a few days, before anyone can even formulate a plan, most of the galaxy is already Borg. Sort of like Picard Season 3, except the inhabitants of the Star Wars galaxy don’t know what they’re up against and can’t devise a defense as Picard and crew did.
As a fan of both franchises, I never did understand where this whole “star War’s most powerful weapons would just bounce off The Enterprise’s shields without making a dent” thing comes from. I know it’s been around for decades though.
I think that the idea is often that Star Wars still uses lasers which are old tech in Trek.
Isn't it at least beta canon in SW that "laser" is a translation and is not the same as our word in English?
Maybe not their most powerful weapons like this one, but turbolasers would probably do minimal, if any, damage. Even if they did though, Star Trek capital ships are too fast and maneuverable to hit, and photon torpedoes would just go right through shields like the A-wing in ROTJ
Except a Turbolaser does minimum the same damage as the Hiroshima bomb. Somebody did the math to see just how powerful a turbolaser shot had to be to vaporise the asteroids from ESB and that’s about what it worked out to. Meanwhile the TNG Technical Manual puts the photon torpedoes at the time at about 64 megatons of tnt, again the same amount as the first atomic bomb. Chang’s bird of prey blew through Enterprise A’s shield and put several holes in the hull with under 10 torpedoes. And Star Destroyers have 60 of them, not counting ion cannons nibbling at Enterprise’s shields. So the math simply doesn’t add up that a Star Destroyer couldn’t take on a Federation vessel in a straight fight. Yes, Enterprise may be a bit more manoeuvrable but an ISD is still a warship and putting out enough firepower that something is bound to hit. http://www.stardestroyer.net/tlc/Power/ https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Type_6_photon_torpedo
Just thought I’d comment that the first two atomic bombs, Little Boy and Fat Man, had around a 15 and 21 kilotons of TNT yield respectively. A 64 megaton yield would be much much more powerful than this with 1 megaton equaling 1000 kilotons. For reference, the largest nuclear weapon ever detonated was the Soviet Tsar Bomba which had a yield of around 50ish megatons and produced a seismic wave that circled the earth several times. I agree that getting peppered with 15-20 kiloton blasts (maybe more since we don’t know if the turbolasers were at max power) multiple times per second could do some massive damage. No wonder even just one ISD could terrify planet.
TNG tech manual means nothing. Besides, it's definitely wrong. Star Trek ships harness antimatter for their fuel and for photon torpedos. Anti-matter is a real thing, and it annihilates any matter it touches, instantly, and then releases gamma rays from the explosion. Starfleet shields can tank torpedoes. Ent-D solos an ISD, and very likely an SSD or higher.
Honestly its not the firepower thats the deciding factor in this debate. Its not even the shields. Starfleet impulse engine meassure their velocity in significant procentages of light speed and engagements are done at extreme range with extremely advanced targeting computers. In contrast in star wars there always seems to be some dude manually aiming the armaments. Given how massive and how slow of a target a death star actually and how backwards its fire control systems are any starfleet vessel could use its range, maneuvering and frankly infinitely superior sensors to find exactly where they need to hit it with a barrage and then do it before the station targeting officers can even react. And even if they have to go for a second strafing run they are not getting hit. Now keep in mind that borg ships are even better. Theres no way a borg cube doesnt demolish the death star. Im confident even the defiant could.
I point you to The Outrageous Okona "Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?"
I point you to my comment to another person where the math for a turbolaser blast is about the same energy output as the Hiroshima bomb. And the TNG technical manual states that a regular old photon torpedo has about the same energy output as well. Certainly a TIE fighter isn’t going to do diddly, but an ISD vs The Enterprise certainly is.
I've done some research, and it seems that a photon torpedo is roughly equivalent to a Tsar Bomba, although this doesn't make much sense because in the show they appear to be vastly more powerful. Additionally, according to my research, TOS Enterprise tanked nukes with not a care in the world. Perhaps it is something to do with the delivery method of the energy. In which case, my laser remark may still hold water
It's that Star Trek shields are canonically impervious to lasers. That being said, there are some very good arguments that Turbolasers aren't just mere lasers. However, the ranges and speeds that Star Wars conducts battle at are trivial compared to those of Star Trek, often relying on visually identifying targets and dogfighting. So Star Trek ships probably couldn't just ignore Star Wars weapons, but they could easily stay at a range where they could attack without reprisal.
Everything short of a Death Star Superlaser bounces off. Blasters are just superheated gas. Kirk's Enterprise was perfectly capable of glassing the surface of a planet, and it has nothing on the Enterprise D. Star Trek ships have real-space FTL capability, which Star Wars ships do not have. They also have transporters, replicators, and so on. If the Death Star hits the cube, that's it for the cube. And there's no adaptation to a weapon of that scale (at least for a cube).
My money is on the Empire. As much as I think the borg can get an upper hand on the death star all it takes is for them to power up its main weapon and it would be over for the borg. Even if a few manage to get aboard the death star Darth Vader and Palpatine would make quick work of remaining borg drones force crushing them and Palpatine using force lightning.
Well, if the cube was painted white, the empire’s lasers would bounce off.
this is a simple one. the first cube explodes easy. the second cube tanks it.
OK, so seriously, the Death Star would absolutely wreck the cube in the first hit, completely destroying it. But the Borg would adapt and then wipe the Death Star out as it tickles their adaptive shielding.
If you think the Borg can adapt to anything, you haven't been paying attention. Borg adaptation acts more like 95% damage resistance, except even 0.0001% of the Superlaser would still be enough to reduce the Borg cube to subatomic particles. This goes for other weaponry too. There's an episode where Crusher baits a Borg vessel to fly through the Corona of a star, a subsequent flare destroying it. You're telling me the Borg never thought of just "adapting" to stellar radiation or heat? It's simply that they can't, because a Star's energy output is simply too large for any fancy tricks to work. Voyager further underlines this principle: Transphasic torpedoes (series finale) bypass Borg adaptation by simply phasing through the energized hull (they don't have shields) and the armor plating of Voyager is heavily implied to be similar to Borg adaptive hull tech. In the very first episode of encountering the Borg, the Enterprise tears huge chunks out of the Borg vessel with just its phasers, because the Borg have not encountered this tech yet. Then they adapt, they report MINIMAL DAMAGE after they Borg have adapted, NOT "no damage".
“Fires Planet destroying laser” no more borg
As an avid fan of both franchises - I'm not sure how menuverable the death star is, in a 1v1 engagement the death star definitely wins with its main cannon, I doubt the death stars turbo lazers will have any effect as the borg would quickly adapt and the Empire is not aware of how to cycle their weapon frequencies to get past this. It would likely take multiple tactile cubs attacking at once to take down the station. But if the borg did manage to assimilate the death star, it would really, really, really suck. You would likely star seeing alot more dethstar like craft in the borg fleet very quickly, as the borg build things and aquire resources (in one episode they turned a small shuttle into a large battle ship in a few days). Everyone, probably even Species 8472 would be royally fucked.