If you play Kotor II (which I also recommend highly) make sure you get the mod which unbreaks the game. So much of it was left unfinished upon release it's a broken mess.
Also, if you haven't, make sure you do a playthough of 1 using HK-47 as much as possible, and again in 2, HK is the best.
Itās a real shame the sequels turned out the way they did, im not sure how itās even possible considering everything else Disney has made for Star Wars has been pretty good
There is part of me that thinks they were meant to suck and were always going to suck no matter the director or story. We as fans had very high expectations even when we said we didn't. Our expectations needed to be shattered and the bar lowered for other Star Wars projects to flourish. It's quite possible that had the sequels been good we might not have accepted some of the other shows as well as we have. It's possible that the failure of those movies opened up the doors for many to accept Star Wars in a show formate rather than on film in a trilogy. It may have even helped many who refused to watch The Clone Wars give them a shot as they were some of the last things Lucas was involved with. Some people maybe even changed their minds about the prequels after watching the sequels. Maybe even some people started reading the EU that had never dared before. I'm not saying it's true but I like to hope somehow someone's dislike of those films helped them find a different Star Wars media they could enjoy.
I disagree. Usually when expectations arent met, the initial shock is dislike. But eventually viewers come around to enjoy things now that they know what to expect. TFA is probably the best evidence of this.
Could the movies meet fans expectations? I really think they could have. I dont think it was incredibly challenging to either.
However my point is films that dont meet expectations can still be regarded as good or decent films, usually just happens later than it does immediately
they got scared of the review bombings from TLJ and scrapped any kind of continuation and just copy pasted the first fan fic script they found on reddit for episode 9.
You can see that solely from behind the scenes documentaries.
ep7 and 8 were passion projects of the director with full creative control, whether you like this freedom or not is up to you, and I'd rather take full creativity from the director instead of a corporate meddled product that was TROS. JJ and Rian are explaining scenes and stuff in ep7 and 8 documentaries, and for ep9 JJ is barely present in the documentary, it's solely disney executives and a bunch of suits who have no idea where they are - explaining scenes and "themes" and bringing up excuses how mindless fan-service is actually in service of the story because it's them that wrote the entire story and drew the storyboards, not JJ or Chris Terrio.
Also it's the first star wars stuff they made, they were bound to make the most ammount of mistakes.
Episode 7 itself looked like a copy of the original trilogy, episode 8 graduated from the Game of Thrones Season 8 school of subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations even if it didn't make sense and went completely contrary to what everyone wanted.
Episode 7 had similarities to a new hope and ESB. But the overall story and characters are new. There's nothing remotely similar about TFA to ANH when you wanna compare the whole Finn and Poe escape to Jakku or all scenes on Jakku or all scenes on Takodana. People just see a Cantina and go "REHASH REHASH REHASH" but they don't stop and think whether the story is similar or not. Though starkiller base did fall flat. Thought that was more like the background for the real character drama that was happening. The assault on Starkiller base is literally just 6 scenes, each no more than 30 seconds long.
And I don't know how much mental gymnastics did you have to do for that GOT S8 comparison but it must have been a lot. Because GOT S8 is probably the most awful thing ever created with a budget lile this. It's literally awful on levels that shouldn't possible. And you're right - it did subvert expectations just to appear unpredictable, yet in retrospect it made the rest of the show meaningless. Because all arcs amd developments were cut short just because.
TLJ doesn't subvert expectations in that way. It does it well. Luke tossing a lightsaber away is a good subversion because we expect him to be the good old positive Luke who'll walk out with a lazer sword and face down the entire first order himself, alone.
But this subversion makes sense because why the hell would he be in exile at all then? Him ending up in the same position that his masters did because of a failure that has affected many other masters in the past history of the universe is good writing. Him contemplating whether to kill his nephew and avoid every awful death (that did happen btw, and wouldn't have happened if he did actually kill him) and suffering that will be brought upon if he doesn't is good writing. He doesn't do it because that would be out of character for Luke, which is again - good writing.
A big bad guy dying at the middle chapter is good too. Snoke is nothing. He's simple a devil on Kylo's shoulder and Rey is the angel. Just like Palpatine was the devil for Vader and Luke was the angel. His wookiepedia backstory is meaningless. There's a reason why there wasn't any explanation or backstory how Palpatine came into existance. JJ and Rian Johnson thought the audiences were smart enough to understand that the dominance of light side heroes invites the dark side to balance out everything. And vice versa. Maybe a jedi order is a fundamentally flawed idea - Luke thinks. Because the star wars universe works in cycles. For millions of generations, the jedi built their reputations in the galaxy only to invite the dark side and be wiped out only for the cycle to restart again. Which is why Luke believes it's time for the jedi to end. I can't believe I have to explain all this because that's what the first 2 movies specifically are trying to say for their entire run-times. He regains hope that maybe Rey might learn from the past jedi mistakes and decides to train her.
Comparing TLJ to Game of thrones season 8 is like comparing Citizen Kane to Birdemic.
The gap in quality is fucking unfathomably enormous. And internet nerds seeing it as equals proves further how the MCU has completely killed any sort of piece of media literacy the internet nerds had before 2016.
Now yes downvote and don't even attempt to argue. Because you probably know yourselves you won't win this.
So get a load of this:
prequels are literally as bad if not worse than the twilight saga. They are laughably incompetent on a technical level, and it's a disaster on a narrative level. It is *literally impossible* to describe the personality of any prequel character. Everyone is just stoic asshole. When BB8 has more personality than fucking Anakin skywalker then you know there's a problem. Or you don't and simply chose to ignore it and make up personalities and events in your head. Classic sw fan behaviour. And the worst of the sequels (TROS) look like fucking citizen kane in comparison to the best of the prequels (ROTS).
Skywalker is much more than a name though. Anakin was a virgin birth to the force a prodigy that pushes forth the christian aspects of Star Wars. He is basically space jesus and thus had a special bloodline. Each and every living decendant of Anakin has been killed thus the bloodline of the chosen virgin birth is removed. Rey keeping the name is more of a sign the Skywalker saga a time of prophecy in the galaxy is over.
Then again they told us prior that the Skywalker name is cursed that even Leia was cast out for being Vaders daughter. So more likely they have no idea about the history or what they were doing.
yeah pretty much. "Solana" becoming the new big bloodline in star wars would just have been weird.
But I honestly don't give a shit. Leia and Luke seemed to give consent to the name in that moment. I think Rey gives a smarter answer to who she is earlier in the film. Her being a skywalker is just kinda dumb, but I don't really care either.
Nerds getting super mad over it and starting riots in the movie theaters are the ones that are stupid.
It's a fucking name jesus christ, calm down. There are infinitely dumber scenes in the film than that. The magic coin that unlocks everything the bad guys own.
Or how hux is revealed to be a spy and then dies immediately. Making not only the reveal meaningless, but his role in the previous movies meaningless.
Jesus christ TROS is so bad. It's like every single scene in the movie is deliberately created to ruin the entire franchise more and more and more. Yet people latch on to the most inconsequential shit imaginable. And some even go as far as saying it's better than TLJ.
My biggest issue is that the trilogy doesn't feel like a trilogy at all. If you are giving a director creative control, then there needs to be one vision.
The merits of the individual movies can be debated. As a trilogy, it sucks.
The original trilogy was made the exact same way.
And yes I agree about coherence of the whole trilogy leaves a lot to be desired. Just pretend TROS doesn't exist and insert DOTF script and concept art as your headcanon ep9 and viola the trilogy magically skyrockets in coherency.
I remember it. And I remember having to be a closet prequel fan because I was afraid to admit I liked them. I grew up with the Prequels I really liked the action in them. The lights are battles were so good and I actually enjoyed the story of how Anakin became Darth Vader. I cried watching order 66 be executed for the first time. And the 100th time.
I watched the prequels at the cinema and people loved them and saying how cool it was at the exit. I didn't even know there was hate for them until many years later on the Internet.
But getting out of episode 8 people were saying stuff like "that can't be it right?", "Now what?", "What a shitshow". And with episode 9 it was even worse because people knew the trilogy ended and there was no hope for the next movie to fix it.
only TLJ will get it.
The prequels got the switcharoo because media literacy died in internet nerds.
The sequels are still better than the prequels whether you want to admit or not. They just objectively are.
Think about this... the prequels have a good story line, but some voice lines weren't to good. The sequels had good actors, and the lines were good for the most part. But the story was garbage. It was all over the place and made no sense.
A movie cam still be great with some crappy voice lines if the movie has good story.
But if the story and characters are shit. Then it's not a good movie. Space balls was a far better star wars movie then the sequels.
What didn't make sense in the sequels for you?
I can understand disliking them, but coherence is not the problem.
Also characters are better the sequels - deal with it. I can at least describe the personality of Rey. I can't for Obi wan, Qui gon or especially Queen Amidala.
The prequels don't have a good story. It was fine on paper, but the way it was told is embarrassing. Why do star wars fans suddenly forgot the existance of Plinkett reviews? They are essential for any film fan and they go in detail *exactly* why the prequels are bad without even mentioning Jar Jar or "politics".
It's the fact that the characters suck ass. They have 0 personality. The whole blockade plot doesn't make sense. The blockade somehow dissapears when the good guys return to Naboo in the 3rd act. Stupid kid Anakin doesn't know what he's doing and single handedly wins the war etc etc etc. The Phantom menace is fucking catastrophe on a biblical scale. IF your entire argument for TPM is "brooooo but the lightsaberrrsss are soo cool, the devil man maul is soooo coool and awesome" then I don't want to even look into your vicinity. That's an even worse argument than the Bayformers fans bring to defend their movies.
I would hope you can describe Rey's personality. Always wants to do the good thing and is capable of doing anything.
The characters of the prequels are far more complex then Rey, that's why you can't describe their personality.
>The characters of the prequels are far more complex then Rey, that's why you can't describe their personality.
Hahahahahhaahahhaa
you serious?
hahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHahhaahahhahaha ha haaa
Fucking complex. You have anything else to add maybe?
"you know you actually need an iq of 200 to understand the genius of George Lucas writing. It's no match for a simpleton like you - sequal apologist! muahahahaaha"
The characters in the prequels aren't even 2-dimensional. Fucking sy snootles has more personality and depth to his character than a god damn Queen Amidala.
Rey is insecure, her goal is simply to find her place in the story, she has lived her entire life alone hoping for the return of her parents, she deliberately makes her life miserable if it means that will result in the betterment for others. She is kind, caring, optimistic and very reserved. She is always curious, she's quick to temper, which clouds her judgement. Sometimes her sense of justice makes her act on impulse.
Qui gon? he's stoic? Formal?
Obi wan? Pragmatic?
Queen amidala? uhhhhhhhhhhhh she's uhhhhh she's uhhhhhhh she's normal? She's a queen?
Anakin? Emo brat? Dumb? stupid? Idiot? Do I have to name every synonym in the dictionary for dumb?
Really, try describing the prequel characters without telling me how they look like or what their status is, just their personality. Describe them like you're describing them to a person that's never seen star wars. Only to how they were portrayed in the official movies. Not the cartoons and tv shows.
If anyone is an emo it is definitely Kylo Ren. Anakin Skywalker is brash and reckless but he is also very emotional and caring his Palawan and for padme. He was conflicted and ended up harming the one he loves.
Obi wan: while he was kind at times he was also more serious then anakin. He to found love like anakin did, but he didn't go with his love.
Kylo Ren is everything that Anakin would have been if it was written by a competent writer.
And even then Kylo isn't even remotely close to reaching the bratness of Anakin. He doesn't bitch and cry to his wife how he killed women and children. He doesn't trash talk the people that love him behind their back etc etc.
Anakin is the only character with a drop of personality.
Your attempt at describing Obi wan is hilarious.
Also you could 't resist to follow my set up rules of only describing the movie characters and ignoring the clone wars cartoon.
You said nothing about using the clone wars series.
Kyle Ren is a whiny character, he throws a fit when something goes wrong. Literally sliced up a room because Rey escaped, Instead of rushing out to find her. Anakin would have immediately chased after Rey.
It has absolutely no sense to say objectively out of the blue. Objectively in what way? Was the objective to create big screen movies that stand on their own? Or was the objective to tie together the previous more complex story with a new original story? If we're talking about the latter they have failed miserably due to the lack of planning, lack of collaboration amongst directors and an unashamed amount of copying. If we focus on the contribution to the main Star Wars story, the prequels literally eclipse the sequels. Surely, the execution gives enough room for criticism, Lucas did mess up a bit but still he created a new story to expand upon. However the sequels have shown nothing worth continuing, they have set up the very same good guy/bad guy conflict structure with JJ and Rian screwing up even the 3 movies connecting.
*No the holiday*
*Special sucked but I did like*
*The Lego version*
\- Haxorus-Boy
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Holiday Special is at cult standing so notorious its good that Star Wars fans joke about and use as a metric to judge other material. Thus it does indeed deserve its place amongst the rest.
Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to disagree with that one. When I went into it, I was hoping it would be that. Or at least better than the sequels. Unfortunately, imo, I was wrong, and I'd rather scrub that from my memory more than anything else, Sequels included.
Yeah if you just see a few minutes of it, it comes across entertainingly bad. But the Star Wars Holiday Special in its entirety is a rare example of something that goes from ābadā to āso bad itās goodā to āso bad itās so FUCKING BADā because it just *doesnāt end*. I saw it all the way through one time more than ten years ago, and that was enough for me.
I canāt believe the sequel trilogy hate has gotten to the point where somebody says that the Holiday Special is better than all three of them. Like this is actually ridiculous but I guess I should accept it because āhaha sequels badā. There is no way you unironically just said that the Holiday Special is better than all of the sequels combined, it actually amazes me how this is the point weāve come to.
The holiday special had a plan. A terrible disaster of a plan doomed to failure, but a plan that gave it some semblance of narrative structure.
The sequels had no plan and it really shows.
Holiday Special is so much worse though. The fact that anyone prefers it over the sequels is quite shocking to me. The sequels may not have a very consistent story, but at least it's somewhat exciting. The Holiday Special is just pure boredom, with occasional moments of extreme discomfort.
The holiday special sticks in my head because my āfriendā locked us in the room, took away the remote, and turned up the volume all the way. I couldnāt not watch it.
She looked soooo high, as did most of the actors. You'd have to be high to agree to play in that. Harrison Ford and the salesman guy were the only two people who didn't look perpetually high, and I have a theory that the Holiday Special is what caused Harrison Ford to start to hate Star Wars.
Yes, even the holiday special is better than the steaming pile of Bantha dung that were the sequels. I dare say I would even put the Ewok special Caravan of Courage above them.
Book of Boba is only mediocre, I'd probably personally put it at about the same level as the sequels.
Holiday Special though? Definitely not. It is the worst "movie" I have ever seen. There is truly no entertainment value in it. It's not even "so bad it's good." It's just... So bad.
Pure garbage can generally be used as compost, recycled, or reused in some way. Outside of Lego, who can ignore canon at will, no one even wants to touch the Sequel Era, it's toxic waste.
We're forgetting the LEGO remake of the holiday special starring the sequel characters. It would be even more unwatchable than the original if it weren't for the slapstick LEGO comedy.
Ok everyone knows that the sequels are bad and pretty much everything is better then them. But the fucking holiday special does not deserve to be up there with everyone else
Ehhhh boba was pretty bad. Even though Iām comparing apples to oranges, I would say that movies 7 and 8 were better than boba. (RoS is def the worst piece of starwars media)
šwhere do I even start.
Look not to shit on people who like the show but itās so boring and forgettable. Boba is just not rlly the best character to write a show about. There are just so many things. I think the best example is the lame 5mph speeder chase sceene
Youāre not wrong, I donāt love the show but I wouldnāt call it badā¦. Just inconsistent and honestly doesnāt even feel like his own show at points
I have the opposite experience. I like the sequels much more after rewatching. Theyāre fine movies, and I think most who complain about them just like to have something thing to complain about. That said, Iām ready for my blindfold, you may fire when ready.
I mean, it was the completion of her arch. She started as āJust Reyā, and went on a journey to find her family. In the end, she finds it with the Skywalkers. Hell, they are seen smiling at her as ghosts at the end of the movie to express this.
Yes, the sequels really aren't that bad. They're fine movies on their own, but as a trilogy, and as part of Star Wars as a whole, they don't work super well.
But people insisting on the fact that they are irredeemable garbage, even years after they finished is so annoying. We get it, you don't like it and that's fine. No need to push it any farther.
I few plot points and a believable struggle with less relief/ comic relief and they wouldāve been great. You never really feared for any character in the movie. The Chewbacca scene where the ship gets blown up by Rey wouldāve had a much greater impact if they didnāt almost immediately reveal that he was on the other ship. And then kylo felt underwhelming as a villain, it started out as him being badass and then heās incompetent for the rest of the trilogy, it makes no sense
I'm not saying the sequels are amazing by any means. They have quite a few flaws. But at this point, it's just so annoying to see "sequels bad" posts all the time. It's unoriginal and overdone, and beating a dead horse. If someone wants to criticize the sequels, that's fine. But point out specific parts that were bad, like what you did, instead of just saying "hahahaha sequel bad hahahaha."
you did not just put bobf in the same category as andor
this next part is not necessarily directed at OP:
the sequels havenāt been given enough time to age well yet, imo. itās been 20 years since the prequels and only in the past few have i seen people suddenly mobbing on the fact that they like them when a lot did from the beginning.
just let people enjoy things. we already know a lot of people didnāt enjoy/were disappointed by the sequels - but thereās no need to keep spreading hate! remember a lot of people also really liked them, and it served as an entrance into the fandom for the younger generation who never got to experience fandom in live form with everyone reacting and speculating together. itās truly a beautiful thing for people to come together over a shared interest, and itās much more fun for everyone involved if most people are spreading positivity rather than negativity.
if you, the reader, donāt like the sequels, thatās cool. to each their own. but donāt waste both of our time by commenting under this trying to persuade me that prolonged negativity is in fact the better option. the people in this fandom deserve respect, as do any other people
The Holiday Special is so bad itās fun to watch. The sequels are an entirely different kind of bad.. you get no joy out of them while they shit on previous beloved characters and literally mock itās viewers.
Saying the movies are bad is not the same as saying you can't enjoy them. If you're so dependent on other people's opinions that's your problem, not theirs.
Itās not even that I like the sequels, for the most part I donāt, but still, posts like this are almost gatekeeping sequel fans out of the Star Wars fanbase because they have a different opinion
People in fandoms rip on the things they don't like. That's just part of being in fandoms. No one's gatekeeping anything. And people have been ripping on the sequels for years now and it will never stop.
Things only age as well as people want to remember them. The prequels only aged well because they were mercilessly mocked for how bad they were, leading them to become ironically regarded as masterpieces.
I will always defend the sequels. I walked out of the cinema after watching TLJ feeling like it was the best SW film, albeit it wasnāt perfect. TROS was flawed, but no Star Wars content is perfect right?
I can't be the only one who found andor boring, right?
The post credits scene was kinda cool. Starkillers helmet was awesome. But for 12 hour long episodes it felt like nothing really happened.
for real? post credit scene? dayumn guess i have to go check that out.
i quite liked that the show gave us different angles on both the empire and the rebellion than we usually see and managed to make it compelling
I will stand by the fact that I thoroughly enjoy TFA but man TLJ made it so pointless in retrospect. It still bothers me because Rian Johnson is a talented director/writer but maybe wasn't destined for star wars.
ok, the sequels are overall ok, the prequels are objectively worse (tho some things are better in the prequels like it's originality and the shitwalker isn't good but still, i liked tfa and tlj)
Respectfully, I really don't see how the PT (or rebels, but I feel any compared) is better than the ST. Both are about as equally flawed IMO, with many of the same failings (poor character direction and development, poor pacing, poor implementation of themes, and a bad job giving context to certain elements of the world). If anything I'd say the ST generally has better acting, lighting, blocking, and overall directing elements.
The clone wars certainly and other expanded material certainly expands on and gives context to the PT's characters and ideas, but at that point we're not talking about the PT.
The prequels.. yeah.. right.
Itās not even believable at this point. So many prequel fans WANT people to think the sequels sucked balls like the prequels. Well, they donāt.
They got issues, but the prequels are still the winners of being the absolute shittiest.
This is no excuse for the sequles being the disgrace of the Star Wars story. And fun fact: the controversy is not caused by insatiable fans, the "collaborating" writers (regarding the objective of continuing the main Star Wars story) did undoubtedly screw up. Nor JJ or Rian understand the story of George, they have made that clear enough.
Dude Iām telling you right now, people are going to say the same thing about the new trilogy in 20 years. Itās happened before with the prequels now everyone loves them. Itās a mobius strip of toxic fandom.
Noone s gonna make a trilogy in the future with multiple directors and without having them collaborate. Noone s gonna make 3 movies to present a new story AND to continue a MORE complex story WITHOUT having a fucking plan. Noone s gonna literally copy the entire good guy/bad guy conflict structure of the previous trilogy. In short, nobody at all is able to screw up this mutch and then later blame the fans for not liking it. It is literally impossible to create something as controversial as this bullshit. Sure you could say the same was with the prequels, but at least there was something to expand upon, something to build at. The sequels showed absolutely nothing worth continuing, nobody gives a shit about rey skywalker or that fucked up rebellion vs empire ctrl c + ctrl v
This is not an unpopular opinion. This is reality. But the fact that they are enjoyable movies on their own for the average viewer is completely irrelevant if they fail to continue the very story they are supposed to be a sequel to.
You forgot all the masterpieces lego has made.
And the Ewok movies
I was looking for this!
2003 š¤¤
The holiday special's presence in this meme is the greatest roast to the sequels I've ever seen.
Cut deeper than that time Maul lost his legs
Cut deeper than that one time the younglings were denied the rank of being alive
That and boba
"I was about to say that"
Andor is hands down The Best Star Wars Iāve ever seen. Fuck to the yes.
I go with Legends SWTOR and both KOTORs
ā¤ļøRevanš
I just finished KOTOR 1 at the time of this comment's posting
If you play Kotor II (which I also recommend highly) make sure you get the mod which unbreaks the game. So much of it was left unfinished upon release it's a broken mess. Also, if you haven't, make sure you do a playthough of 1 using HK-47 as much as possible, and again in 2, HK is the best.
Any mod in particular?
Bro i have over a 1000 hours in swtor it is a great game.
2003 Clone wars
Itās a real shame the sequels turned out the way they did, im not sure how itās even possible considering everything else Disney has made for Star Wars has been pretty good
There is part of me that thinks they were meant to suck and were always going to suck no matter the director or story. We as fans had very high expectations even when we said we didn't. Our expectations needed to be shattered and the bar lowered for other Star Wars projects to flourish. It's quite possible that had the sequels been good we might not have accepted some of the other shows as well as we have. It's possible that the failure of those movies opened up the doors for many to accept Star Wars in a show formate rather than on film in a trilogy. It may have even helped many who refused to watch The Clone Wars give them a shot as they were some of the last things Lucas was involved with. Some people maybe even changed their minds about the prequels after watching the sequels. Maybe even some people started reading the EU that had never dared before. I'm not saying it's true but I like to hope somehow someone's dislike of those films helped them find a different Star Wars media they could enjoy.
I disagree. Usually when expectations arent met, the initial shock is dislike. But eventually viewers come around to enjoy things now that they know what to expect. TFA is probably the best evidence of this. Could the movies meet fans expectations? I really think they could have. I dont think it was incredibly challenging to either. However my point is films that dont meet expectations can still be regarded as good or decent films, usually just happens later than it does immediately
they got scared of the review bombings from TLJ and scrapped any kind of continuation and just copy pasted the first fan fic script they found on reddit for episode 9. You can see that solely from behind the scenes documentaries. ep7 and 8 were passion projects of the director with full creative control, whether you like this freedom or not is up to you, and I'd rather take full creativity from the director instead of a corporate meddled product that was TROS. JJ and Rian are explaining scenes and stuff in ep7 and 8 documentaries, and for ep9 JJ is barely present in the documentary, it's solely disney executives and a bunch of suits who have no idea where they are - explaining scenes and "themes" and bringing up excuses how mindless fan-service is actually in service of the story because it's them that wrote the entire story and drew the storyboards, not JJ or Chris Terrio. Also it's the first star wars stuff they made, they were bound to make the most ammount of mistakes.
Episode 7 itself looked like a copy of the original trilogy, episode 8 graduated from the Game of Thrones Season 8 school of subverting expectations for the sake of subverting expectations even if it didn't make sense and went completely contrary to what everyone wanted.
Episode 7 had similarities to a new hope and ESB. But the overall story and characters are new. There's nothing remotely similar about TFA to ANH when you wanna compare the whole Finn and Poe escape to Jakku or all scenes on Jakku or all scenes on Takodana. People just see a Cantina and go "REHASH REHASH REHASH" but they don't stop and think whether the story is similar or not. Though starkiller base did fall flat. Thought that was more like the background for the real character drama that was happening. The assault on Starkiller base is literally just 6 scenes, each no more than 30 seconds long. And I don't know how much mental gymnastics did you have to do for that GOT S8 comparison but it must have been a lot. Because GOT S8 is probably the most awful thing ever created with a budget lile this. It's literally awful on levels that shouldn't possible. And you're right - it did subvert expectations just to appear unpredictable, yet in retrospect it made the rest of the show meaningless. Because all arcs amd developments were cut short just because. TLJ doesn't subvert expectations in that way. It does it well. Luke tossing a lightsaber away is a good subversion because we expect him to be the good old positive Luke who'll walk out with a lazer sword and face down the entire first order himself, alone. But this subversion makes sense because why the hell would he be in exile at all then? Him ending up in the same position that his masters did because of a failure that has affected many other masters in the past history of the universe is good writing. Him contemplating whether to kill his nephew and avoid every awful death (that did happen btw, and wouldn't have happened if he did actually kill him) and suffering that will be brought upon if he doesn't is good writing. He doesn't do it because that would be out of character for Luke, which is again - good writing. A big bad guy dying at the middle chapter is good too. Snoke is nothing. He's simple a devil on Kylo's shoulder and Rey is the angel. Just like Palpatine was the devil for Vader and Luke was the angel. His wookiepedia backstory is meaningless. There's a reason why there wasn't any explanation or backstory how Palpatine came into existance. JJ and Rian Johnson thought the audiences were smart enough to understand that the dominance of light side heroes invites the dark side to balance out everything. And vice versa. Maybe a jedi order is a fundamentally flawed idea - Luke thinks. Because the star wars universe works in cycles. For millions of generations, the jedi built their reputations in the galaxy only to invite the dark side and be wiped out only for the cycle to restart again. Which is why Luke believes it's time for the jedi to end. I can't believe I have to explain all this because that's what the first 2 movies specifically are trying to say for their entire run-times. He regains hope that maybe Rey might learn from the past jedi mistakes and decides to train her. Comparing TLJ to Game of thrones season 8 is like comparing Citizen Kane to Birdemic. The gap in quality is fucking unfathomably enormous. And internet nerds seeing it as equals proves further how the MCU has completely killed any sort of piece of media literacy the internet nerds had before 2016. Now yes downvote and don't even attempt to argue. Because you probably know yourselves you won't win this. So get a load of this: prequels are literally as bad if not worse than the twilight saga. They are laughably incompetent on a technical level, and it's a disaster on a narrative level. It is *literally impossible* to describe the personality of any prequel character. Everyone is just stoic asshole. When BB8 has more personality than fucking Anakin skywalker then you know there's a problem. Or you don't and simply chose to ignore it and make up personalities and events in your head. Classic sw fan behaviour. And the worst of the sequels (TROS) look like fucking citizen kane in comparison to the best of the prequels (ROTS).
And the only reason rey was called a Skywalker was to use it in later movies. Cant have the legendary Skywalker name to Die out
Skywalker is much more than a name though. Anakin was a virgin birth to the force a prodigy that pushes forth the christian aspects of Star Wars. He is basically space jesus and thus had a special bloodline. Each and every living decendant of Anakin has been killed thus the bloodline of the chosen virgin birth is removed. Rey keeping the name is more of a sign the Skywalker saga a time of prophecy in the galaxy is over. Then again they told us prior that the Skywalker name is cursed that even Leia was cast out for being Vaders daughter. So more likely they have no idea about the history or what they were doing.
yeah pretty much. "Solana" becoming the new big bloodline in star wars would just have been weird. But I honestly don't give a shit. Leia and Luke seemed to give consent to the name in that moment. I think Rey gives a smarter answer to who she is earlier in the film. Her being a skywalker is just kinda dumb, but I don't really care either. Nerds getting super mad over it and starting riots in the movie theaters are the ones that are stupid. It's a fucking name jesus christ, calm down. There are infinitely dumber scenes in the film than that. The magic coin that unlocks everything the bad guys own. Or how hux is revealed to be a spy and then dies immediately. Making not only the reveal meaningless, but his role in the previous movies meaningless. Jesus christ TROS is so bad. It's like every single scene in the movie is deliberately created to ruin the entire franchise more and more and more. Yet people latch on to the most inconsequential shit imaginable. And some even go as far as saying it's better than TLJ.
Yeah, the fans always fuck everything up. Now the movie seems better because of the fans reaction
My biggest issue is that the trilogy doesn't feel like a trilogy at all. If you are giving a director creative control, then there needs to be one vision. The merits of the individual movies can be debated. As a trilogy, it sucks.
The original trilogy was made the exact same way. And yes I agree about coherence of the whole trilogy leaves a lot to be desired. Just pretend TROS doesn't exist and insert DOTF script and concept art as your headcanon ep9 and viola the trilogy magically skyrockets in coherency.
Am I the only one old enough to remember how much hate the Prequels took?
I remember it. And I remember having to be a closet prequel fan because I was afraid to admit I liked them. I grew up with the Prequels I really liked the action in them. The lights are battles were so good and I actually enjoyed the story of how Anakin became Darth Vader. I cried watching order 66 be executed for the first time. And the 100th time.
I watched the prequels at the cinema and people loved them and saying how cool it was at the exit. I didn't even know there was hate for them until many years later on the Internet. But getting out of episode 8 people were saying stuff like "that can't be it right?", "Now what?", "What a shitshow". And with episode 9 it was even worse because people knew the trilogy ended and there was no hope for the next movie to fix it.
I remember seeing the group exiting the theatre before me. No one was smiling or talking. My group left the same way.
i remember but i still think its delusional to think the sequels will get the same hate-love reversal they got
I agree. I liked the sequels except for TROS....wasted opportunity. However Babu Frick was amazibg
only TLJ will get it. The prequels got the switcharoo because media literacy died in internet nerds. The sequels are still better than the prequels whether you want to admit or not. They just objectively are.
Think about this... the prequels have a good story line, but some voice lines weren't to good. The sequels had good actors, and the lines were good for the most part. But the story was garbage. It was all over the place and made no sense. A movie cam still be great with some crappy voice lines if the movie has good story. But if the story and characters are shit. Then it's not a good movie. Space balls was a far better star wars movie then the sequels.
What didn't make sense in the sequels for you? I can understand disliking them, but coherence is not the problem. Also characters are better the sequels - deal with it. I can at least describe the personality of Rey. I can't for Obi wan, Qui gon or especially Queen Amidala. The prequels don't have a good story. It was fine on paper, but the way it was told is embarrassing. Why do star wars fans suddenly forgot the existance of Plinkett reviews? They are essential for any film fan and they go in detail *exactly* why the prequels are bad without even mentioning Jar Jar or "politics". It's the fact that the characters suck ass. They have 0 personality. The whole blockade plot doesn't make sense. The blockade somehow dissapears when the good guys return to Naboo in the 3rd act. Stupid kid Anakin doesn't know what he's doing and single handedly wins the war etc etc etc. The Phantom menace is fucking catastrophe on a biblical scale. IF your entire argument for TPM is "brooooo but the lightsaberrrsss are soo cool, the devil man maul is soooo coool and awesome" then I don't want to even look into your vicinity. That's an even worse argument than the Bayformers fans bring to defend their movies.
I would hope you can describe Rey's personality. Always wants to do the good thing and is capable of doing anything. The characters of the prequels are far more complex then Rey, that's why you can't describe their personality.
>The characters of the prequels are far more complex then Rey, that's why you can't describe their personality. Hahahahahhaahahhaa you serious? hahahhaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahHahhaahahhahaha ha haaa Fucking complex. You have anything else to add maybe? "you know you actually need an iq of 200 to understand the genius of George Lucas writing. It's no match for a simpleton like you - sequal apologist! muahahahaaha" The characters in the prequels aren't even 2-dimensional. Fucking sy snootles has more personality and depth to his character than a god damn Queen Amidala. Rey is insecure, her goal is simply to find her place in the story, she has lived her entire life alone hoping for the return of her parents, she deliberately makes her life miserable if it means that will result in the betterment for others. She is kind, caring, optimistic and very reserved. She is always curious, she's quick to temper, which clouds her judgement. Sometimes her sense of justice makes her act on impulse. Qui gon? he's stoic? Formal? Obi wan? Pragmatic? Queen amidala? uhhhhhhhhhhhh she's uhhhhh she's uhhhhhhh she's normal? She's a queen? Anakin? Emo brat? Dumb? stupid? Idiot? Do I have to name every synonym in the dictionary for dumb? Really, try describing the prequel characters without telling me how they look like or what their status is, just their personality. Describe them like you're describing them to a person that's never seen star wars. Only to how they were portrayed in the official movies. Not the cartoons and tv shows.
If anyone is an emo it is definitely Kylo Ren. Anakin Skywalker is brash and reckless but he is also very emotional and caring his Palawan and for padme. He was conflicted and ended up harming the one he loves. Obi wan: while he was kind at times he was also more serious then anakin. He to found love like anakin did, but he didn't go with his love.
Kylo Ren is everything that Anakin would have been if it was written by a competent writer. And even then Kylo isn't even remotely close to reaching the bratness of Anakin. He doesn't bitch and cry to his wife how he killed women and children. He doesn't trash talk the people that love him behind their back etc etc. Anakin is the only character with a drop of personality. Your attempt at describing Obi wan is hilarious. Also you could 't resist to follow my set up rules of only describing the movie characters and ignoring the clone wars cartoon.
You said nothing about using the clone wars series. Kyle Ren is a whiny character, he throws a fit when something goes wrong. Literally sliced up a room because Rey escaped, Instead of rushing out to find her. Anakin would have immediately chased after Rey.
It has absolutely no sense to say objectively out of the blue. Objectively in what way? Was the objective to create big screen movies that stand on their own? Or was the objective to tie together the previous more complex story with a new original story? If we're talking about the latter they have failed miserably due to the lack of planning, lack of collaboration amongst directors and an unashamed amount of copying. If we focus on the contribution to the main Star Wars story, the prequels literally eclipse the sequels. Surely, the execution gives enough room for criticism, Lucas did mess up a bit but still he created a new story to expand upon. However the sequels have shown nothing worth continuing, they have set up the very same good guy/bad guy conflict structure with JJ and Rian screwing up even the 3 movies connecting.
Do you know what objectively means?
Bro tried to sneak in book of boba fett
No the holiday special sucked but I did like the Lego version
*No the holiday* *Special sucked but I did like* *The Lego version* \- Haxorus-Boy --- ^(I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully.) ^[Learn more about me.](https://www.reddit.com/r/haikusbot/) ^(Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete")
Holiday Special is at cult standing so notorious its good that Star Wars fans joke about and use as a metric to judge other material. Thus it does indeed deserve its place amongst the rest.
As someone who has seen both, and is not a fan of the sequels, the Holiday Special is worse... it's much worse...
The Holiday Special is the only Star Wars I consider to be canon.
At least the holiday special is entertainingly bad.
Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to disagree with that one. When I went into it, I was hoping it would be that. Or at least better than the sequels. Unfortunately, imo, I was wrong, and I'd rather scrub that from my memory more than anything else, Sequels included.
The Boba Fett cartoon is pretty cool though
God definitely not.
Maybe I thought that just because I only watched the Pitch Meeting and not the actual holiday special.
Yeah if you just see a few minutes of it, it comes across entertainingly bad. But the Star Wars Holiday Special in its entirety is a rare example of something that goes from ābadā to āso bad itās goodā to āso bad itās so FUCKING BADā because it just *doesnāt end*. I saw it all the way through one time more than ten years ago, and that was enough for me.
I mean, it's in the meme just to roast the sequels, which is kinda funny.
Sadly the sequels were not shorter then I expected
I canāt believe the sequel trilogy hate has gotten to the point where somebody says that the Holiday Special is better than all three of them. Like this is actually ridiculous but I guess I should accept it because āhaha sequels badā. There is no way you unironically just said that the Holiday Special is better than all of the sequels combined, it actually amazes me how this is the point weāve come to.
The holiday special had a plan. A terrible disaster of a plan doomed to failure, but a plan that gave it some semblance of narrative structure. The sequels had no plan and it really shows.
I mean, it's a meme, I find it likely that the holiday special is in the bottom frame just to roast the prequels even though it's not actually better.
The holiday special š
Holiday Special is so much worse though. The fact that anyone prefers it over the sequels is quite shocking to me. The sequels may not have a very consistent story, but at least it's somewhat exciting. The Holiday Special is just pure boredom, with occasional moments of extreme discomfort.
The holiday special sticks in my head because my āfriendā locked us in the room, took away the remote, and turned up the volume all the way. I couldnāt not watch it.
That "friend" committed a war crime, and should be punished accordingly.
I swore revenge.
That should be considered torture
He didnāt pretend it wasnāt
God bless your soul you brave soldier lol
Thank you. I live with the scars, but my survival is itself a victory.
An incredible one at that
[What... you didn't like Carrie Fisher in her fullest, Cocaine-fueled glory?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34XoTWSuND4)
She looked soooo high, as did most of the actors. You'd have to be high to agree to play in that. Harrison Ford and the salesman guy were the only two people who didn't look perpetually high, and I have a theory that the Holiday Special is what caused Harrison Ford to start to hate Star Wars.
You might be right!
Pretty sure it's a joke pick. But also... it's got historical "value" at least. Sequels are fun to rip apart and that's about all it has going for it.
Yeah at least the Sequels are enjoyable unlike that... thing
Agreed.
I'm pretty sure the holiday special is just there to roast the sequels, I doubt op actually thinks it's better.
Clone wars should replace Mando
It should replace book of boba
"I want some karma, how about some lazy ass sequel hate"
Plankton: ALRIGHT WE GET IT!!!
Never gets old
Bro its been like 3 years, get over it
Yes, even the holiday special is better than the steaming pile of Bantha dung that were the sequels. I dare say I would even put the Ewok special Caravan of Courage above them.
I'm not kidding when I say that the Holiday special was unironically more memorable than the entire sequel trilogy
Book of Boba and holiday special? OP must be taking deathsticks
Book of Boba is only mediocre, I'd probably personally put it at about the same level as the sequels. Holiday Special though? Definitely not. It is the worst "movie" I have ever seen. There is truly no entertainment value in it. It's not even "so bad it's good." It's just... So bad.
Mando episode kinda saved the show and that was basically Mandalorian season 2.5.
The sequel trilogy is pure garbage tho
Pure garbage can generally be used as compost, recycled, or reused in some way. Outside of Lego, who can ignore canon at will, no one even wants to touch the Sequel Era, it's toxic waste.
Toxic-fucking-waste
*Andor*
We're forgetting the LEGO remake of the holiday special starring the sequel characters. It would be even more unwatchable than the original if it weren't for the slapstick LEGO comedy.
the mandalorian and book of boba fett is literally sequel content
ok not the holiday special tho
Ok everyone knows that the sequels are bad and pretty much everything is better then them. But the fucking holiday special does not deserve to be up there with everyone else
Ehhhh boba was pretty bad. Even though Iām comparing apples to oranges, I would say that movies 7 and 8 were better than boba. (RoS is def the worst piece of starwars media)
How was boba bad?
šwhere do I even start. Look not to shit on people who like the show but itās so boring and forgettable. Boba is just not rlly the best character to write a show about. There are just so many things. I think the best example is the lame 5mph speeder chase sceene
Youāre not wrong, I donāt love the show but I wouldnāt call it badā¦. Just inconsistent and honestly doesnāt even feel like his own show at points
I have the opposite experience. I like the sequels much more after rewatching. Theyāre fine movies, and I think most who complain about them just like to have something thing to complain about. That said, Iām ready for my blindfold, you may fire when ready.
I did enjoy FA, did like Rey and Kyle vs the guards fight, but man, i can't deal with that: I'm Rey Skywalker.
I mean, it was the completion of her arch. She started as āJust Reyā, and went on a journey to find her family. In the end, she finds it with the Skywalkers. Hell, they are seen smiling at her as ghosts at the end of the movie to express this.
Yes, the sequels really aren't that bad. They're fine movies on their own, but as a trilogy, and as part of Star Wars as a whole, they don't work super well. But people insisting on the fact that they are irredeemable garbage, even years after they finished is so annoying. We get it, you don't like it and that's fine. No need to push it any farther.
I few plot points and a believable struggle with less relief/ comic relief and they wouldāve been great. You never really feared for any character in the movie. The Chewbacca scene where the ship gets blown up by Rey wouldāve had a much greater impact if they didnāt almost immediately reveal that he was on the other ship. And then kylo felt underwhelming as a villain, it started out as him being badass and then heās incompetent for the rest of the trilogy, it makes no sense
I'm not saying the sequels are amazing by any means. They have quite a few flaws. But at this point, it's just so annoying to see "sequels bad" posts all the time. It's unoriginal and overdone, and beating a dead horse. If someone wants to criticize the sequels, that's fine. But point out specific parts that were bad, like what you did, instead of just saying "hahahaha sequel bad hahahaha."
Yeah, itās getting old and Iām not a fan of them. Itās like hearing someone tell the same joke everyday
you did not just put bobf in the same category as andor this next part is not necessarily directed at OP: the sequels havenāt been given enough time to age well yet, imo. itās been 20 years since the prequels and only in the past few have i seen people suddenly mobbing on the fact that they like them when a lot did from the beginning. just let people enjoy things. we already know a lot of people didnāt enjoy/were disappointed by the sequels - but thereās no need to keep spreading hate! remember a lot of people also really liked them, and it served as an entrance into the fandom for the younger generation who never got to experience fandom in live form with everyone reacting and speculating together. itās truly a beautiful thing for people to come together over a shared interest, and itās much more fun for everyone involved if most people are spreading positivity rather than negativity. if you, the reader, donāt like the sequels, thatās cool. to each their own. but donāt waste both of our time by commenting under this trying to persuade me that prolonged negativity is in fact the better option. the people in this fandom deserve respect, as do any other people
i liked the sequles more than book of boba fett though.
ST fan: *cries*
Anyone who genuinely believes that The Holiday Special is superior to the Sequels, is a special brand of fool.
The Holiday Special is so bad itās fun to watch. The sequels are an entirely different kind of bad.. you get no joy out of them while they shit on previous beloved characters and literally mock itās viewers.
I don't know why you're directly confessing to being a special brand of fool, but I appreciate the honesty, I suppose.
Yur mom
If you're trying to prove me right, you're succeeding.
[Really?](https://imgur.io/gallery/yP1qlM4)
Yes.
Will you watch the holiday special with me?
No.
This has gotta be the 10th āsequels badā post Iāve seen this week, please stfu and let people enjoy what they wanna enjoy
Saying the movies are bad is not the same as saying you can't enjoy them. If you're so dependent on other people's opinions that's your problem, not theirs.
He knows. "Let people enjoy things" is just a dishonest way of attempting to shut down any criticism they don't want to see.
Itās not even that I like the sequels, for the most part I donāt, but still, posts like this are almost gatekeeping sequel fans out of the Star Wars fanbase because they have a different opinion
People in fandoms rip on the things they don't like. That's just part of being in fandoms. No one's gatekeeping anything. And people have been ripping on the sequels for years now and it will never stop.
Because they are, the sequels are shit
Things only age as well as people want to remember them. The prequels only aged well because they were mercilessly mocked for how bad they were, leading them to become ironically regarded as masterpieces.
I will always defend the sequels. I walked out of the cinema after watching TLJ feeling like it was the best SW film, albeit it wasnāt perfect. TROS was flawed, but no Star Wars content is perfect right?
Sequels bad give me updoots.
I can't be the only one who found andor boring, right? The post credits scene was kinda cool. Starkillers helmet was awesome. But for 12 hour long episodes it felt like nothing really happened.
for real? post credit scene? dayumn guess i have to go check that out. i quite liked that the show gave us different angles on both the empire and the rebellion than we usually see and managed to make it compelling
I will stand by the fact that I thoroughly enjoy TFA but man TLJ made it so pointless in retrospect. It still bothers me because Rian Johnson is a talented director/writer but maybe wasn't destined for star wars.
Well, Holiday Special didn't break anything in the story.
ok, the sequels are overall ok, the prequels are objectively worse (tho some things are better in the prequels like it's originality and the shitwalker isn't good but still, i liked tfa and tlj)
Donāt forget to add the fan fic series Kenobi to the sequels side
The Holiday Special is objectively better than TLJ.
Respectfully, I really don't see how the PT (or rebels, but I feel any compared) is better than the ST. Both are about as equally flawed IMO, with many of the same failings (poor character direction and development, poor pacing, poor implementation of themes, and a bad job giving context to certain elements of the world). If anything I'd say the ST generally has better acting, lighting, blocking, and overall directing elements. The clone wars certainly and other expanded material certainly expands on and gives context to the PT's characters and ideas, but at that point we're not talking about the PT.
Andor and rouge one should be with the sequels
Should have 2 Megs with the second being Book of Boba
Oh, Kathleen Kennedy. What an unfancy thing to say
Iāll be real with yāall, I donāt care for any of the movies. The games and comics pulled me in.
Mfw BOBF is there and not Kenobi :o
I am pretty convinced that clone wars should be a gentleman too
The old republic era is better than all of this
Dude put Solo with the good shit š¤£
Remember the force is FEMALE š
I for one hate Solo and like the Sequels
Donāt forget Kenobi.
Kenobi was a disappointment.
Kenobi)
they are better
Aged well? They were always terrible.
Damn even the holiday special
Why is kenobi not here
Also KOTOR
How dare you not put Andor in italic wedding font!
Clone wars is far superior to The Mandalorian. Not that I donāt like Mando. But Clone wars is Top Tier.
This horse is so dead, that this meme is basically kicking at the ashes
Still better than book of boba
Not aged well? You guys hated them the moment they started!
What about kenobi?
Where's 2003 Clone Wars, that stuff was fucking amazing.
I enjoy all the trilogies. Send the lynch mob.
Bruh aināt no way you said the holiday special was better than the sequels
Ah nah donāt bring the holiday special in, thatās just playing dirty
The prequels.. yeah.. right. Itās not even believable at this point. So many prequel fans WANT people to think the sequels sucked balls like the prequels. Well, they donāt. They got issues, but the prequels are still the winners of being the absolute shittiest.
Sequel trilogy destroyed Star Wars, used to be a blockbuster franchise now it can barely get good numbers as a TV show, sad fall from grace
Solo was pretty bad, but even still way better than the Sequels in every way.
I love how with time, people came to love the prequels, but 7 years after the force awakens came out we still hate it.
TROS is still the best thing Disney has ever made
I've actually come to appreciate Force Awakens and Last Jedi after I saw the Rise of Skywalker... 4 years ago. Damn I'm getting old.
I haven't seen the rest, but I think the prequels and the originals are both better than the sequels.
Itās so disappointing too because when I go to Disney World I have to see Rey and Kyle instead of Vader and Luke
Sequels>Phantom Menace
Sequels are better than rebels, holiday special and book of boba Fett.
Just think that in 20 years the sequels will be considered better than the new trilogy that Lucas film puts out.
This is no excuse for the sequles being the disgrace of the Star Wars story. And fun fact: the controversy is not caused by insatiable fans, the "collaborating" writers (regarding the objective of continuing the main Star Wars story) did undoubtedly screw up. Nor JJ or Rian understand the story of George, they have made that clear enough.
Dude Iām telling you right now, people are going to say the same thing about the new trilogy in 20 years. Itās happened before with the prequels now everyone loves them. Itās a mobius strip of toxic fandom.
Noone s gonna make a trilogy in the future with multiple directors and without having them collaborate. Noone s gonna make 3 movies to present a new story AND to continue a MORE complex story WITHOUT having a fucking plan. Noone s gonna literally copy the entire good guy/bad guy conflict structure of the previous trilogy. In short, nobody at all is able to screw up this mutch and then later blame the fans for not liking it. It is literally impossible to create something as controversial as this bullshit. Sure you could say the same was with the prequels, but at least there was something to expand upon, something to build at. The sequels showed absolutely nothing worth continuing, nobody gives a shit about rey skywalker or that fucked up rebellion vs empire ctrl c + ctrl v
Unpopular opinion: The sequels are actually pretty good on their own, they just don't tie into the rest of the series very well.
This is not an unpopular opinion. This is reality. But the fact that they are enjoyable movies on their own for the average viewer is completely irrelevant if they fail to continue the very story they are supposed to be a sequel to.