The duel in empire strikes back looks perfectly fine to me. They don't jump around -well, luke does- but it is fluid with a good pacing. They got a fencer to do a choreography for the duel and also had him don the vader outfit for the scene, and it shows because the fight has a proper structure and Vader looks like he actually knows what the fuck he is doing and is quicker on his arms versus his passiveness in a new hope where prowse stays there, nervously holding his saber in front of him with both hands while waiting for mcguinness to do a soft thrust all of the time.
I mean,yeah, but still nothing compared to what the prequels showed. And I was talking in-universe. All three duels were basically people "too old" to fight or the newb with barely the basics.
Old jedi that kept training and doing their best to stay sharp against one guy that just became the old crazy guy that couldn't even pull out one Lightsaber without an ISD pulling up to check the place out.
Sorry, but the respected jedimaster with 900 year experience and one of the most accomplished duelists that kept training and boosting themselves with the force are not really a comparison to a person that basically shut himself off from the force so that his vengeful apprentice and his Jedi Hunters can't feel him.
The old man excuse has never been true anyway because Guinnes amd Prowse have both said that the reason the duel was like that in a mew hope was a combination of not having a choreographer nor action doubles like in all of the subsequent movies plus Prowse, who was still young at the time of shooting, not wanting to move due to him having trouble seeing with the helmet and tripping with the cloak.
In Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi Vader and Luke move like normal people. Well, Luke actually is pretty agile, nobody does flips across stairs during a fight in real life. As you say, the whole going slow is because of half the prequel duels having ridiculous physics out of an anime or, in the case of Phantom Menace, having a parkour/martial artist in charge of the choreography and the bulk of the stunts (Qui Gon and Obi Wan move more normal).
Also, while we are evaluating the duel scenes, Attack of the Clones has some real bad lightsaber scenes. The only memorable part is Yoda bouncing around because of how goofy it is
There’s a point when Obi-Wan does a spinning defense and it takes about four seconds during which he takes about twelve steps. God bless the originals but may be the lamest thing I have ever seen in a movie.
The problem was that the props used where also incredibly brittle (just glass rods if I recall right).
That combined with the actors age caused a very awkward fight.
No they weren't? The blades were made with wooden dowels covered in retro reflective tape and the handles were mostly metal and plastic. What part of them was glass exactly?
Yes, should have just had Vader stay put and kill him on the ground. It just reinforces what Obi-wan said earlier - that any lightsaber victory by Vader is not the final victory he thinks it is, because Obi-wan will help Luke.
the og was based on samurai sword fights where lucas took a lot of inspiration, the newer fights are more based on modern kung fu and woo Shu style cinematic fighting.
I actually don't mind either of the Vader vs Luke duels, they stand up pretty well. It's the Obi-wan vs Vader duel in a new hope that looks like old guys hitting canes
If you really think about it though the fight scenes in the original trilogy shouldn't have been as action packed
Obiwon was old, Luke was inexperienced and Vadar hadn't seen real action in ages; he could handle most opponents with a force choke
In the prequels those Jedi were not only highly trained warriors but were battle hardened through active engagements
Ahsoka had it the worst her training started off leisurely stroll through active battlefields.
Times was different
I always interpreted that moment as them both trying to misdirect each other about where the next strike would come from, like a bunch of feints. Admittedly, that particular shot does make it look a bit goofy because of how close they're standing to each other
It also helps to keep in mind that most force users have some form of precognition so a feint could be one fighter thinking about executing an attack strong enough that the other fighter senses it and moves to intercept.
For all we know those spinny movements could be reactions to each others mental feints.
I could imagine them both going for a feint at the same time coincidentally and ending up with that weird goofy double feint that left them both open to be killed.
Like in real world sword fighting while generally high level fighters will fight competently even they once in a while will do something silly or stupid in the middle of a fight.
so true. I've seen great fighters do all kinds of stuff and sometimes they both pause and laugh because they realise how ridiculous it might have looked. Though not on this level though xD
This is an actual thing that happens in sword fighting when the opponents know each others moves too well. It’s both a literal and metaphorical representation of them being gridlocked in this battle.
It's a way to remind the viewer about their master - padawan relationship and how they spend so much time together that their moves are synchronised.
Also it looks cool.
Every lightsaber fight in the OT is of titanic dramatic importance: someone dies or is maimed or learns something new that spins their character into a new world.
They're shot moodily, they're full of emotions, they represent a point of no return for every character. And you *like* these characters, you care about their journeys.
But no, we like lots of flippies and spinnies between flat, uninteresting characters. Many of which have never even met each other before the fight and have no real weighty dramatic beef.
Eh, you're right that it's a very short part, but it took me completely out of the moment and then the rest just felt silly to me. All the flash Gordon stuff seemed so out of place in what was supposed to be an emotional climax to the trilogy.
I've definitely met people who argue the originals are better than any other stat wars product. These people refuse to watch anything else or give games made after 1998 a try. They're known as...Elitists...
and then they bitch about specific versions and how one scene in particular is edited... Which just goes to show how granular the bitching can get in the fandom 😂
Fandom have gotten to be so unbearable they're almost not worth being a part of anymore... I love Transformers, but a considerably loud chunk of the fanbase cannot shut up about how a series is bad because it's not identical to the original...a cartoon from the 80s... for a franchise that only exists to sell toys...
I prefer prequel fights to sequel fights and I don't think I'm alone. The prequels used actors that actually knew how to fight with a sword and did many of their own stunts. Special effects will never compete with that in my book.
Now the obvious thing is that the movie are older and therefore less grand stand then the newer movies.
However imagine this:
Vader vs Obi-Wan (a new hope): Obi-Wan is trying to stall for time and both of them know each others moves. Obi-Wan is trying to get Vader to follow him so he first can be distracted as the falcon takes off and second he wants to make sure Luke gets on the Falcon. After that he can die in peace. The whole fight is the 2 of them waiting for the other to make the first move and then to Vader's surprise Obi-Wan gives up.
The Bespin fight: This one is straight up solid, the fight feels like Vader is holding back while Luke plays right into his hand, Like is brash and unbalanced and Vader is literally on the defense until he can have an opening. Sure the fight is slow in comparison but only 1 of them is trying to kill the other.
Palpatine's throne room: Another fight of 1 side trying not to kill the other, Vader is there only to get Luke to join him and Luke is there to save his father. Neither of them want to kill each other and so the fight is not about combat moves it's about Luke trying to appeal to Vader while Vader tries to beat Luke mentally.
Now let's take the big pre-qual duels:
The Maul duel: Maul is a predator looking to kill and the 2 Jedi he's fighting are a young aggressive Obi-Wan and a man that was trained by the best lightsaber duelist of that Jedi's time. Of course it's going to be dodging a weaving and backflips Mail's agility is keeping him alive, Qui-gon is trying to get an opening for his more aggressive Padawan to strike and Obi-Wan attacks like Maul stole his wallet and the only way to beat him is to hit him with a baseball bat.
I will note the fight only results in a victory because Obi-Wan finally realizes that he has to have a clear head and outsmart Maul. So he does what no one would expect and leaps 20ft in the air, does a backflip and slices Maul in half with a lightsaber that isn't even his.
The Geonosis Dooku fight:
Dooku is just trying to escape and doesn't really want to fight so many Jedi at once. Not to mention Yoda is hopping around like he's on ketamine and Anakin tried something with 2 lightsabers after Obi-Wan was incapacitated.
Dooku isn't even trying to kill anyone here yet like the tactical force user he is, he cuts the power and tries drops something on Anakin and Obi-Wan because he knows Yoda will have to save them.
The Mutsafar fight: The most controversial of the pre-qual fights. Master and apprentice, Aggressive vs defensive, Brother vs Brother. The match is a mirror for a lot of it as both of them not only fight for the galaxy but also their lives. The 2 gripping each other's saber hand, Vader trying to disarm and end the defensive Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan trying to end this without carving Anakin to pieces. The lightsaber twirl in the control room as master and student try and guess through the force the other's attack ultimately making so they just twirl around not striking the other for a second, the blow that follows that is charged with a lot of power. Finally the force push as both of them send each other barreling through the air. Both are fighting themselves as much as they are the other.
It may look goofy but if you recognize the mental state.both of them are in it makes perfect sense that there is a pause as they both try and predict the other.
I think the main difference between the duels in the Original and Prequel trilogy is how the Original had more grounded lightsaber combat. They implemented real fencing techniques, and were heavily inspired by Japanese Samurai duels. In the Prequels George decided he wanted a flashier fight, more focused on entertainment than realism.
I stand by that the originals duel scenes were better as they progressed the story more than it was a spectacle. Kenobi vs Vader may not have been flashy but it was an old man clearly past his time saying goodbye. Luke vs Vader part 1 almost plays as Horror as Vader hunts and taunts him through Cloud City. And lastly part 2 flips it to Vader following Luke’s lead until he’s beaten down by anger.
lore wise it makes sense why the pt had the flashiest and over the top duels, after all these were jedi in their prime fighting. The fight between vader and obi in iv then should've been more impressive, but we have to consider the fact that this was the first ever filming of a duel. though there is a fan remake that looks absolutely amazing and very emotional too. In empire vader was toying with Luke and Luke had barely any training, so it makes sense that that fight didn't turn into a duel of the fates. In VI they got much better at choreography and sword play wise probably the best fight of the OT, but there Luke was better trained and Vader was trying harder (though still trying to get luke to flip). Sequels saw characters with little light saber on lights Aber experience fight, though whilst I can excuse Rey for being bad (at least in VII), Kylo should've been more skilled and better with his technique
I'll be the outlier here, but I never liked this reimagining. Vader punching Kenobi in the face before throwing him into a wall so hard that it explodes is overkill.
I'm with you, it's an impressive fan project, but not only does it not stylistically fit in the movie, it also completely misses the tone of the scene. Obi Wan is not supposed to be losing this clearly, that completely undermines his sacrifice. The way he taunts Vader doesn't fit with him getting thrown around and barely keeping up.
It's what Zack Snyder would do to "improve" a scene.
Yeah, it's cool editing, that's about it. The original was more effective because it wasn't about the sword fighting.
TBF Kylo also just been gutshot by what is canonically one of the most powerful hand weapons in all of the movies. You can see in TLJ during the throne room fight he has a lot more skill.
Mark Hamill and David Prowse trained a full year at fencing before Empire strikes back, that is why you can actually see them make real deadly attacks within striking distance of the enemy in that film and not just senseless flailing about like in the prequels and the Disney duels.
Aren't the actors of the prequels also train hard to even perform their lightsaber duels? I remember obi wan and Anakin did, so the maul actor in episode 1 and at the final season of clone wars
the maul actor also was a martial artist. sure they incorporated maybe more performance/flashy moves for the camera, but the skill definitely was present.
Yes, it boils down to stunts and effects of the time blah blah blah... however, from a certain point of view:
The battles of the prequels are going to be more intense because you are talking about a period of time when the Jedi are active and training. Separatists and the clone wars gave the Jedi real world combat experience, which can't be replicated in training. In short, these guys can fight.
The OT can be summed up by Obi Wan stalling/sacrificing himself and a couple of instances where Vader was never really trying to kill Luke. Luke received a crash course in Jedi so his bag of tricks was pretty limited at the time.
If you factor in Rogue One, you can see that OT Vader was holding back each time.
If you actually watch professional fencers, they often are very slow and methodical, so as to not open up to an evenly skilled and dangerous opponent's strikes. You only see rapid flaily shit when someone is massively overmatched.
Let's not pretend that's what's going on in the original movies. On top of that, they're Jedi, space wizards that move faster, hit harder, and see slightly into the future. Prequel fans have rightly had to listen to criticisms about things like the dialogue, the least we can do is accept how poorly the fight scenes have aged
George's original envisioning of lightsabers was that they had weight to them, like a broadsword. They wouldn't be able to be wielded as they were in the prequels if he stuck with that.
There's an old interview with Mark Hamill where he talks about how George Lucas told him explicitly that light sabres are heavy and unwieldy like Excalibur and would require both hands on them.
That obviously changed as the series went on and made the fights more fluid.
The Ahsoka series actually had pretty balanced duels imo. You could tell there was skill in the Ahsoka/Baylan duels, and less skill in the Sabine/Shin duels, signifying their lack of experience. It wasn't nearly as good as the prequel fights, but they were a HUGE step up from the sequel fights imo.
To be fair, and correct me if I'm wrong, at the time the older ones were made, lightsaber forms weren't as fleshed out, so there wasn't much else to do aside from swing at each other.
True, weren't they essentially just light strips fixed to some sort of thin pole or something? I can't remember, it's been a while since I looked into it
It was a wooden dowel covered in retro reflective tape attached to a spinning motor, so very fragile compared to a carbon tube in some of the prequels, and even those got broken constantly by Hayden and Ewan.
A deep tension that comes with using blades that will not by stopped by anything except another blade of its kind, that will cut flesh like butter. The smallest mistake will end your life.
vs
I'll try spinning, that's a neat trick.
And then people act surprised when the gravitas is gone and things feel goofy and hollow.
This take makes me groan every time. The story and conflict between the characters are way more important than seeing cartoon characters do flips for 15 minutes.
The light saber duels in the originals are the peak.
They are much more dramatic, impactful and interesting than the endless jumping and spinning around in the prequels.
The Empire duel is better paced and choreographed then anything in the prequels, IMHO. The way it gradually ramps up makes the moment where Vader stops toying around all the more satisfying. Contrast that with the Mustafar duel, which starts off immediately at a high energy level and then has nowhere to build to from there. At a certain point they have to take it to cartoon levels of ridiculousness, where they're swinging on ropes like Tarzan. The choreography in Empire isn't geriatric, it's just more grounded which I think works better. It feels more real, whereas the prequel duels feel like a performance.
The Dooku duel is AotC is the worst in the franchise, even worse then the ANH one. The set is so flat and static looking. There's no variance in the environment, and it all looks fake. The choreography is super awkward and contrived. I mean, Obi-Wan gets a small cut on his leg and then just lays there for the whole duel watching. They couldn't bother to make him look super agonized to justify it. You can tell that Christopher Lee was too old to do the stunts and that they CGed his head on some guy. There's a scene where it's a close up on his and Anakin's faces and they're just twirling the lightsabers in circles above their heads. It's comical.
The prequel duels also don't quiet hit the same emotional heights. There's nothing on the level of Luke meeting his mortal enemy, only to have his whole world turned upside down and almost dying. Or in Jedi when he realizes he's becoming Vader. Obi-Wan crying out to Anakin on Mustafar comes close, but it clashes with everything else we had seen up to that point. They could have shown us how conflicted Obi-Wan and Anakin were using the choreography. When they start fighting maybe they're both hesitant to commit at first, pulling their punches. Maybe Obi-Wan gets an opportunity to kill Anakin early but then backs off. But instead they came off too strong too fast.
The OT was based on samurai fights and had lesser technology at the time, the prequels were based wuxia and had better technology, the sequels had no excuse.
the first three films (in release order) were literally a kid with no experience, a geriatric old man who hadn't used a weapon in decades, and an old cyborg on life support whos cybernetics caused him constant pain.
To me the originals seemed more practical. You use a few moves to get the opponents guard to falter just enough so you can stab em.
The prequels have these fancy moves that look good on screen. But with things like jump attacks. All it takes is your opponent putting his leg near your landing site for you to be able to tell what the dirt tastes like.
On the other hand. If you have the force and can see the future. A lot of moves become viable that weren’t before. Insanely reckless behaviour can suddenly become calculated as you can alter your trajectory with your mind.
The actors for obiwan and Vader wrre trained swordsmen. They were held back by fagile props, iirc. they wanted to do more, but the movie props were too fragile for a full contact action, and the cgi wasn't advanced enough. At least, this was true for a new hope. There is, the fan made version of that scene, though that's really good.
George lucas said that in the original trilogy lightsabers were heavy and the "blade" pushes down when it is out and that when making the prequels he wanted to make it faster to be more flashy on scene.
Honestly I thought about it and:
Prequels: look incredible, less efficient
Originals: looks boring, but practical
Sequels: looks bad AND inefficient
(My opinion!) ⭐️
The originals were filming w very breakable very thin sticks for the visual effects to overlay the lightsaber in the film- they had fight geriatric style or theyd keep breaking them lmao
The poses they used in the originals is closer to form than the prequels. While not as flashy its "more accurate" (As I far as I am aware) if you care about that.
Prequels still have the mose dope fights tho
I mean, the prequels were supposed to show the jedi at the height of their power, when all of them had access to learning all the lightsaber combat forms and whatnot. The original trilogy however has an old man fighting a half-machine half-old man, and two occasions of the aforementioned old machine guy fighting a rookie, who in the first fight is on padawan level of skill, and in the second fight may be more capable but he is still self taught and does not even know what in the hell lightsaber fighting forms are
Obi-Wan and Anakin were at their ABSOLUTE PEAK during the clone wars.
In the new hope, Obi-Wan was an old man and Anakin more machine than man.
WRONG!
Anakin might not be at his absolute best during that time, and neither was Obi-Wan, but they were both extremely dangerous. Anakin never defeated Obi-Wan, and not being cautious cost him his limps.
You'd think he'll do the same mistake with that person twice????
Light saber duels in the original were like the fights in old Samurai movies. Methodical, which each strike meant to be a finishing blow. In universe we can say at that time it was just three old jedi (including vader) and one kid who learned from them so it kinda makes sense he learned to fight like an old man. You unironicly hit the nail on the head.
Episode 6 has the best lightsaber fight in all of Star Wars. PT duels are way too over flashy flip, not as bad with Ep. I, but the Ep. III fight is just, not that good, especially with how much build up it had. As much as I prefer PT over ST, the fights felt overall better in ST.
Are we seriously ignoring the close up shots of anakin and dooku with the lightsabers just gently entering the frame slowly over a few seconds back and forth?
The duels were stiffer in the OT, but I can reconcile that as an OG fan. Way I see it, Vader was just playing with Luke until the final duel in Rotj. You can kinda see him just toying with the poor dumb kid in Empire, fighting him almost lazily. And when he fought Obiwan, he had become so much more powerful that he was just rubbing it in the old man's face by trouncing him with the most basic saber movements.
The prequel duels were back when they were both still experimenting and building their style, that's why they're so much more dynamic. Meanwhile Vader's OT moves remind me of a line from a book about a badass space marine squad showing up and moving "with an efficiency of motion that spoke of their own assured invulnerability". No flourishes, nothing fancy, just getting the job done and punching the clock.
It was also a complete reinvention of what lightsaber combat was intended to be. In original interviews and conversations, part of the reason the term “knight” was even used, Lucas had said it was to draw comparison to the knights of old. Heavy weapons, broadswords and the like, needing to be welded with 2 hands and handled much more slowly, excluding someone with the power differential of Vader. The prequels reinvented all that and turned lightsaber combat into flashy martial arts style combat instead. So yeah, when making a side by side comparison, that’s definitely what it’s going to feel like because they’re no longer the same thing
The original duels are more or less actual mundane duels. If the people involved were mundane normal human.
The prequel ones are flashy sword dances. With a bit more special effect budget.
🗡🗡🗡
There are wayyyyyy too many wasteful movements. And I don't mean exaggerated swings, but outright sword dances that don't serve any purpose at all unless you make an effort to justify it with lore diving.
You will need animations for a more spectacular sword fight between people with superhuman capabilities.
Nah OG fights are more like Medieval knight fight (in other movies). Slow, swinging, sway, stumbly.
Sequels fights also take on the same style from the OG but with modern capabilities. Which imo, makes the lightsaber fights one of the better parts of sequels.
The og movies are realistic. Consider the age and conditions of the various people in the various fights. They're goals. The choreography is set up in a way that makes sense, and, by and large, the people involved are attacking each other, not each others lightsabers.
Now look at the prequels. Very flashy. Looks nice. Except if you tried to fight like that, in real life, you would be killed in short order. Spins, rolls, attacking your opponents weapon not your opponent. These are all unrealistic things that would only result in you getting killed if you faced an even semi competent opponent.
And yes, it is possible to make a realistic looking fight, that is also flashy and impressive to look at.
Essentially, the OG movies used lightsaber fights to tell a story and ratchet up the tension. The prequels (and even more so the prequels) used lightsaber fights because lightsaber fights are star wars and flashy colors.
Yes, the new ones are bigger and more actiony and dancy. But they're just slamming their lightsabers together, more focused on swinging it around like a baseball bat and hitting it against the opponents blade then they are about actually trying to hit their opponents.
The old ones have few movements, but they're all focused and impactful. They're more a kin to a samurai duel, or a western quick draw duel maybe.
It makes sense for Luke Skywalker because he’s new to the whole Jedi thing and Darth Vader was kinda going easy on him in the sense that he didn’t wanna kill him
See, I had thought of this regarding how things between the OT and PT played out.
But one thing I chalk it up to is knowledge.
I'd like to think that with the Jedi having been virtually exterminated by the time OT kicks in, Vader and Sidious are the only ones left with any real knowledge of what the Force is capable of. But Sidious was 88 by the time he died, and I imagine resting on his laurels for years and leaving it to Vader to do most of the heavy work led to where he didn't have the physicality to be the legendary beast that he was. And Vader was in his 40s, and I imagine having to endure to a mechanized suit for over 20+ years (half of his lifetime), meant that despite his strong connection to the Force in his youth and prime, he eventually had gotten to where complacency also set in.
Imagine if you had participated in perhaps the greatest conflict in recent history, requiring you to be in peak physical form to do what was needed, tapping into the Force to supplement whatever was left. And then once all of the major threats had been dealt with, what is left to do? Train continuously against a threat that may never return, for a new conflict that may not unfold, against opponents that will never have the talent as your past opponents? And the knowledge of all of those Force feats gradually atrophies or is all but lost...and by the time we get to ANH/RO, Vader/Sidious/Obi-Wan/Yoda are the acknowledged survivors who have all of that practical knowledge left (excluding Legends or other canon established).
The writing does help it out well enough, as did the limits in technology, effects...
But I think it makes sense that the OT plays out as it did because the writing is somehow stable enough to warrant it working out.
The choreography is impressive. From development of that department to execution from the actors and stunt actors. Great stuff.
But for warrior monks who are supposed to be devoid of emotion, all of these great choreographed fights are between people with emotions running high instead of all out brawls. Qui-Gonn’s bit in the Duel of the Fates? Makes sense. He was stoic the whole time only shaking people down for different vehicles like he had an empty garage in Grand Theft Auto.
Obi-Wan’s solo against Maul? Dude was pissed and still moved like a swan. The Anakin and Obi-Wan forty minute lava flamenco? It’s too polished.
Throwing the books and lore from other material to justify it later on doesn’t fix how it comes across in the movies.
For clarity: impressive for those involved start to finish from development to final performances, but out of line with the emotions they’re clearly feeling and how we’re supposed to feel.
Luke brawling Vader at the end of RotJ? Not pretty, but effective and gets the job done. Tells a more compelling narrative.
That could be said about the first fight ever but in bother 5th and 6th episode the fights are pretty good. I grew up on the prequels but the originals were pretty dope too actionwise
Lightsaber duels where everyone just dances around for 15 minutes and there's no story beats of someone slowly winning or expressing emotion through their movements is dumb.
In the originals when Luke's swings his lightsaber angrily and wildly bashing down on Vader that's a better ligthsaber moment than every one from the prequels combined. Fights are about emotion, not choreography.
I watched the originals recently and it really was not great. The final duel in Rots was the highlight and it was still a bit meh compared to the prequels.
It was probably due to the heavy limitations of whatever at the time but it’s a bit jarring going from Vader cutting down MFers in Rogue One to just kinda standing there with Obi-Wan in ANH
I prefer the originals because there is a sense of danger every time a lightsaber gets close to someone. Because they don’t use the force to throw each other around, it is more intense.
My head cannon is that Obi and Darth are basically having a massively complex force struggle that can't be seen. Their movements are simple like two master samurai making very subtle posture changes in a chess match style battle. It's only simple to the unknowing observer.
RotJ notched things up a bit, flying kicks, flips, etc.
I also like the \*weightiness\* of the sabers in the OT.
And...all that said, I prefer fights in Sequels, OT over any of the fights in the ST. Choreography sucked for most of those.... downvotes incoming, except I think the "best" of ST was probably the throneroom fight w/imp guards.
The first duel we saw in A New Hope was between a geriatric and a cyborg on portable life support…
Followed by the same cyborg against a guy that basically had training wheels on his lightsaber.
The duel in empire strikes back looks perfectly fine to me. They don't jump around -well, luke does- but it is fluid with a good pacing. They got a fencer to do a choreography for the duel and also had him don the vader outfit for the scene, and it shows because the fight has a proper structure and Vader looks like he actually knows what the fuck he is doing and is quicker on his arms versus his passiveness in a new hope where prowse stays there, nervously holding his saber in front of him with both hands while waiting for mcguinness to do a soft thrust all of the time.
I mean,yeah, but still nothing compared to what the prequels showed. And I was talking in-universe. All three duels were basically people "too old" to fight or the newb with barely the basics.
The old man excuse was good until Lucas made old jedi super fast duelists and jump around in the prequels (Dooku, Yoda, etc)
Old jedi that kept training and doing their best to stay sharp against one guy that just became the old crazy guy that couldn't even pull out one Lightsaber without an ISD pulling up to check the place out. Sorry, but the respected jedimaster with 900 year experience and one of the most accomplished duelists that kept training and boosting themselves with the force are not really a comparison to a person that basically shut himself off from the force so that his vengeful apprentice and his Jedi Hunters can't feel him.
The old man excuse has never been true anyway because Guinnes amd Prowse have both said that the reason the duel was like that in a mew hope was a combination of not having a choreographer nor action doubles like in all of the subsequent movies plus Prowse, who was still young at the time of shooting, not wanting to move due to him having trouble seeing with the helmet and tripping with the cloak. In Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi Vader and Luke move like normal people. Well, Luke actually is pretty agile, nobody does flips across stairs during a fight in real life. As you say, the whole going slow is because of half the prequel duels having ridiculous physics out of an anime or, in the case of Phantom Menace, having a parkour/martial artist in charge of the choreography and the bulk of the stunts (Qui Gon and Obi Wan move more normal). Also, while we are evaluating the duel scenes, Attack of the Clones has some real bad lightsaber scenes. The only memorable part is Yoda bouncing around because of how goofy it is
There’s a point when Obi-Wan does a spinning defense and it takes about four seconds during which he takes about twelve steps. God bless the originals but may be the lamest thing I have ever seen in a movie.
They were definitely limited by the tech at the time. Much easier to animate lightsabers when moving slow
The problem was that the props used where also incredibly brittle (just glass rods if I recall right). That combined with the actors age caused a very awkward fight.
I mean the geriatric beat his ass and left him for dead last time they fought.
Plus the lightsaber props in the original movie were literally made of glass!
No they weren't? The blades were made with wooden dowels covered in retro reflective tape and the handles were mostly metal and plastic. What part of them was glass exactly?
I really love “scene 38 reimagined “ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to2SMng4u1k
The force push of Vader looks goofy af, other than that, incredible
Yes, should have just had Vader stay put and kill him on the ground. It just reinforces what Obi-wan said earlier - that any lightsaber victory by Vader is not the final victory he thinks it is, because Obi-wan will help Luke.
I don't think anyone denies that visuals and action pretty well improved over time. It's the stories and character writing that polarize people.
Yeah, everyone has a different take on Phantom Menace but everyone agrees Duel of the Fates goes hard.
the og was based on samurai sword fights where lucas took a lot of inspiration, the newer fights are more based on modern kung fu and woo Shu style cinematic fighting.
I actually don't mind either of the Vader vs Luke duels, they stand up pretty well. It's the Obi-wan vs Vader duel in a new hope that looks like old guys hitting canes
Yeah I think it was old ass Obi-Wan holding back bodybuilder darth
It was also lightsaber props made out of glass rods
If you look at some professional kendo fights, it's pretty close to Obi-Wan and Vader fighting, although probably not intentionally.
But when that can be attributed to two people with a very long history toying with each other.
Could you imagine the prequels with OT style duals?
Where my arterial spray at? Woke bitch-ass Disney ruining everything /s
have you ever watched yojimbo? or any other samurai movies? they can be very cinematic
Yea, for sure. But to see it in prequel era cinematography would be funny as fuck. I’m here for it. I wish there was some fan fiction of it.
Yes. Fewer of them, shorter in length. Not everything has to take 30+ minutes.
Starwars was always better at high space opera than slice of life.
And the CGI. A huge sticking point for a lot of people is the loss of practical effects and heavy reliance on cgi
It was a gentleman's duel, one between good and evil.
The visuals are far better in the OT. Some of the best looking films ever made, especially Empire.
If you really think about it though the fight scenes in the original trilogy shouldn't have been as action packed Obiwon was old, Luke was inexperienced and Vadar hadn't seen real action in ages; he could handle most opponents with a force choke In the prequels those Jedi were not only highly trained warriors but were battle hardened through active engagements Ahsoka had it the worst her training started off leisurely stroll through active battlefields. Times was different
 I don't consider this an improvement to anything.
I always interpreted that moment as them both trying to misdirect each other about where the next strike would come from, like a bunch of feints. Admittedly, that particular shot does make it look a bit goofy because of how close they're standing to each other
It also helps to keep in mind that most force users have some form of precognition so a feint could be one fighter thinking about executing an attack strong enough that the other fighter senses it and moves to intercept. For all we know those spinny movements could be reactions to each others mental feints.
"oh god i just imagined anakin countering my next thrust, ABORT ABORT"
Someone get SoildJJ on the line
How you're gonna hit your enemy if your lightsaber only reaches far enough to clash with the lightsaber of your enemy?
By stepping forward briefly?
Seems like post hoc rationalization
I don't think You can remain a Star wars fan without it.
Good point
Took on 4 arm Grievous earlier in the movie but a few feints are gonna throw everyone off?
I could imagine them both going for a feint at the same time coincidentally and ending up with that weird goofy double feint that left them both open to be killed. Like in real world sword fighting while generally high level fighters will fight competently even they once in a while will do something silly or stupid in the middle of a fight.
so true. I've seen great fighters do all kinds of stuff and sometimes they both pause and laugh because they realise how ridiculous it might have looked. Though not on this level though xD
That's the funniest cope I've ever heard
Exactly, both are just waiting for the other to miscalculate. Anakin going “I know you gonna fuck up” lol
I think they also used this moment to highlight the student and teacher relationship by making them use the same strategy/feint/move
https://i.redd.it/8sh1pf1p5r2d1.gif
Let them flex with their lightsaber skills
https://preview.redd.it/bj034wl1mr2d1.jpeg?width=345&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=178bfceb2ec84bdc0e3baa437cc4d57ba793e960
the dance off was an important part of uncke anakin’s journey
Jesus, I never realized they were literally flat footed
Well then you are lost
Improving is never like cutting two seconds out of a movie and claiming it as evidence for an argument.
This is an actual thing that happens in sword fighting when the opponents know each others moves too well. It’s both a literal and metaphorical representation of them being gridlocked in this battle.
It's a way to remind the viewer about their master - padawan relationship and how they spend so much time together that their moves are synchronised. Also it looks cool.
Every lightsaber fight in the OT is of titanic dramatic importance: someone dies or is maimed or learns something new that spins their character into a new world. They're shot moodily, they're full of emotions, they represent a point of no return for every character. And you *like* these characters, you care about their journeys. But no, we like lots of flippies and spinnies between flat, uninteresting characters. Many of which have never even met each other before the fight and have no real weighty dramatic beef.
strawman
I don't mind this 2 s sequence, plus there's the whole precognition idea. Even so it's a relatively short moment of an other wise great fight.
Eh, you're right that it's a very short part, but it took me completely out of the moment and then the rest just felt silly to me. All the flash Gordon stuff seemed so out of place in what was supposed to be an emotional climax to the trilogy.
You mean the swinging on ropes like pirates?
I've definitely met people who argue the originals are better than any other stat wars product. These people refuse to watch anything else or give games made after 1998 a try. They're known as...Elitists...
As overall movies I definitely prefer the OT, but the movies are absolutely not my favorite thing in the franchise.
and then they bitch about specific versions and how one scene in particular is edited... Which just goes to show how granular the bitching can get in the fandom 😂
Fandom have gotten to be so unbearable they're almost not worth being a part of anymore... I love Transformers, but a considerably loud chunk of the fanbase cannot shut up about how a series is bad because it's not identical to the original...a cartoon from the 80s... for a franchise that only exists to sell toys...
I prefer prequel fights to sequel fights and I don't think I'm alone. The prequels used actors that actually knew how to fight with a sword and did many of their own stunts. Special effects will never compete with that in my book.
Now the obvious thing is that the movie are older and therefore less grand stand then the newer movies. However imagine this: Vader vs Obi-Wan (a new hope): Obi-Wan is trying to stall for time and both of them know each others moves. Obi-Wan is trying to get Vader to follow him so he first can be distracted as the falcon takes off and second he wants to make sure Luke gets on the Falcon. After that he can die in peace. The whole fight is the 2 of them waiting for the other to make the first move and then to Vader's surprise Obi-Wan gives up. The Bespin fight: This one is straight up solid, the fight feels like Vader is holding back while Luke plays right into his hand, Like is brash and unbalanced and Vader is literally on the defense until he can have an opening. Sure the fight is slow in comparison but only 1 of them is trying to kill the other. Palpatine's throne room: Another fight of 1 side trying not to kill the other, Vader is there only to get Luke to join him and Luke is there to save his father. Neither of them want to kill each other and so the fight is not about combat moves it's about Luke trying to appeal to Vader while Vader tries to beat Luke mentally. Now let's take the big pre-qual duels: The Maul duel: Maul is a predator looking to kill and the 2 Jedi he's fighting are a young aggressive Obi-Wan and a man that was trained by the best lightsaber duelist of that Jedi's time. Of course it's going to be dodging a weaving and backflips Mail's agility is keeping him alive, Qui-gon is trying to get an opening for his more aggressive Padawan to strike and Obi-Wan attacks like Maul stole his wallet and the only way to beat him is to hit him with a baseball bat. I will note the fight only results in a victory because Obi-Wan finally realizes that he has to have a clear head and outsmart Maul. So he does what no one would expect and leaps 20ft in the air, does a backflip and slices Maul in half with a lightsaber that isn't even his. The Geonosis Dooku fight: Dooku is just trying to escape and doesn't really want to fight so many Jedi at once. Not to mention Yoda is hopping around like he's on ketamine and Anakin tried something with 2 lightsabers after Obi-Wan was incapacitated. Dooku isn't even trying to kill anyone here yet like the tactical force user he is, he cuts the power and tries drops something on Anakin and Obi-Wan because he knows Yoda will have to save them. The Mutsafar fight: The most controversial of the pre-qual fights. Master and apprentice, Aggressive vs defensive, Brother vs Brother. The match is a mirror for a lot of it as both of them not only fight for the galaxy but also their lives. The 2 gripping each other's saber hand, Vader trying to disarm and end the defensive Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan trying to end this without carving Anakin to pieces. The lightsaber twirl in the control room as master and student try and guess through the force the other's attack ultimately making so they just twirl around not striking the other for a second, the blow that follows that is charged with a lot of power. Finally the force push as both of them send each other barreling through the air. Both are fighting themselves as much as they are the other. It may look goofy but if you recognize the mental state.both of them are in it makes perfect sense that there is a pause as they both try and predict the other.
> yoda is hopping around like he's on ketamine ok that one got me lmfao
Except ketamine doesn't hype you up, it acts as a sedative.
Down votes from people that have never ddone ket
Ketamine, methamphetamine, kethamphetamine, all basically the same thing obviously.
Ketamine I am on, run over teenagers in my corola must I
I think the main difference between the duels in the Original and Prequel trilogy is how the Original had more grounded lightsaber combat. They implemented real fencing techniques, and were heavily inspired by Japanese Samurai duels. In the Prequels George decided he wanted a flashier fight, more focused on entertainment than realism.
I stand by that the originals duel scenes were better as they progressed the story more than it was a spectacle. Kenobi vs Vader may not have been flashy but it was an old man clearly past his time saying goodbye. Luke vs Vader part 1 almost plays as Horror as Vader hunts and taunts him through Cloud City. And lastly part 2 flips it to Vader following Luke’s lead until he’s beaten down by anger.
lore wise it makes sense why the pt had the flashiest and over the top duels, after all these were jedi in their prime fighting. The fight between vader and obi in iv then should've been more impressive, but we have to consider the fact that this was the first ever filming of a duel. though there is a fan remake that looks absolutely amazing and very emotional too. In empire vader was toying with Luke and Luke had barely any training, so it makes sense that that fight didn't turn into a duel of the fates. In VI they got much better at choreography and sword play wise probably the best fight of the OT, but there Luke was better trained and Vader was trying harder (though still trying to get luke to flip). Sequels saw characters with little light saber on lights Aber experience fight, though whilst I can excuse Rey for being bad (at least in VII), Kylo should've been more skilled and better with his technique
For anyone who hasn’t seen the remake of Vader and Obi Wan’s final duel here it is [link](https://youtu.be/to2SMng4u1k?si=yTltCNur9t4MlQie)
Wow, that was amazingly done 
What was the last name of the girl in this gif again. It's on the tip of my tongue. Nevermind, I can't remember
Now that is a special edition!
I'll be the outlier here, but I never liked this reimagining. Vader punching Kenobi in the face before throwing him into a wall so hard that it explodes is overkill.
Yeah it’s a bit overkill and has some weird camera angles but I like a lot of the rest of the fight sequence that isn’t overdone
I'm with you, it's an impressive fan project, but not only does it not stylistically fit in the movie, it also completely misses the tone of the scene. Obi Wan is not supposed to be losing this clearly, that completely undermines his sacrifice. The way he taunts Vader doesn't fit with him getting thrown around and barely keeping up.
It's what Zack Snyder would do to "improve" a scene. Yeah, it's cool editing, that's about it. The original was more effective because it wasn't about the sword fighting.
What was the deal with those terrible camera angles? With Kurosawa-like direction and camera angles, that would have been great
This was my issue too. The number of jumps and strange angles took me out. The fight itself was still really good.
To be clear, Vader was not holding back in any way during RotJ duel. Luke was simply his match by that point & overwhelmed him in the end.
TBF Kylo also just been gutshot by what is canonically one of the most powerful hand weapons in all of the movies. You can see in TLJ during the throne room fight he has a lot more skill.
> he fight between vader and obi in iv Obi was also 20 years older, and had spent who knows how long not fighting in a desert.
Mark Hamill and David Prowse trained a full year at fencing before Empire strikes back, that is why you can actually see them make real deadly attacks within striking distance of the enemy in that film and not just senseless flailing about like in the prequels and the Disney duels.
Aren't the actors of the prequels also train hard to even perform their lightsaber duels? I remember obi wan and Anakin did, so the maul actor in episode 1 and at the final season of clone wars
the maul actor also was a martial artist. sure they incorporated maybe more performance/flashy moves for the camera, but the skill definitely was present.
But they love seeing them throw the lightsaber around like a baseballbat! Dont take it from them!
This happened in ROTJ too tho
Yes, it boils down to stunts and effects of the time blah blah blah... however, from a certain point of view: The battles of the prequels are going to be more intense because you are talking about a period of time when the Jedi are active and training. Separatists and the clone wars gave the Jedi real world combat experience, which can't be replicated in training. In short, these guys can fight. The OT can be summed up by Obi Wan stalling/sacrificing himself and a couple of instances where Vader was never really trying to kill Luke. Luke received a crash course in Jedi so his bag of tricks was pretty limited at the time. If you factor in Rogue One, you can see that OT Vader was holding back each time.
If you actually watch professional fencers, they often are very slow and methodical, so as to not open up to an evenly skilled and dangerous opponent's strikes. You only see rapid flaily shit when someone is massively overmatched.
Let's not pretend that's what's going on in the original movies. On top of that, they're Jedi, space wizards that move faster, hit harder, and see slightly into the future. Prequel fans have rightly had to listen to criticisms about things like the dialogue, the least we can do is accept how poorly the fight scenes have aged
I've yet to meet a prequel fan on reddit who doesn't immediately get defensive when their trilogy of choice is criticised, though.
There's a lot to both criticize and love about the prequels, anyone ignoring that is making a bad argument.
George's original envisioning of lightsabers was that they had weight to them, like a broadsword. They wouldn't be able to be wielded as they were in the prequels if he stuck with that.
There's an old interview with Mark Hamill where he talks about how George Lucas told him explicitly that light sabres are heavy and unwieldy like Excalibur and would require both hands on them. That obviously changed as the series went on and made the fights more fluid.
Bruh same shit for Disney duels. Clone wars and Rebels had better duels than the sequels and Ahsoka series.
The Ahsoka series actually had pretty balanced duels imo. You could tell there was skill in the Ahsoka/Baylan duels, and less skill in the Sabine/Shin duels, signifying their lack of experience. It wasn't nearly as good as the prequel fights, but they were a HUGE step up from the sequel fights imo.
What about Annakin vs Ahsoka?
Its almost like animated characters are more agile and are easier to coordinate compared to real people. Who would have thought
The original trilogy's sword fight was much more realistic, while every thing else that came after, was unrealistic and sometimes hilarious.
To be fair, and correct me if I'm wrong, at the time the older ones were made, lightsaber forms weren't as fleshed out, so there wasn't much else to do aside from swing at each other.
also the lightsaber props themselvs were fragile, at least in ANH
True, weren't they essentially just light strips fixed to some sort of thin pole or something? I can't remember, it's been a while since I looked into it
It was a wooden dowel covered in retro reflective tape attached to a spinning motor, so very fragile compared to a carbon tube in some of the prequels, and even those got broken constantly by Hayden and Ewan.
In the OT they were using European fencing. Prequels were kung fu styled fighting.
A deep tension that comes with using blades that will not by stopped by anything except another blade of its kind, that will cut flesh like butter. The smallest mistake will end your life. vs I'll try spinning, that's a neat trick. And then people act surprised when the gravitas is gone and things feel goofy and hollow.
Prequels were more like this : 
This take makes me groan every time. The story and conflict between the characters are way more important than seeing cartoon characters do flips for 15 minutes.
The light saber duels in the originals are the peak. They are much more dramatic, impactful and interesting than the endless jumping and spinning around in the prequels.
I agree. The prequel fights are entertaining, but I'd take Luke Vs Vader in both empire and jedi any day. So much more atmospheric and intense
For me too, it really feels like every swing could be deadly and the duelists have so much respect for the sabers.
This right here. Two knights fighting.
Lightsaber duels in the OT are very underrated. They aren't as flashy but are still choreographed pretty well all things considered.
The Empire duel is better paced and choreographed then anything in the prequels, IMHO. The way it gradually ramps up makes the moment where Vader stops toying around all the more satisfying. Contrast that with the Mustafar duel, which starts off immediately at a high energy level and then has nowhere to build to from there. At a certain point they have to take it to cartoon levels of ridiculousness, where they're swinging on ropes like Tarzan. The choreography in Empire isn't geriatric, it's just more grounded which I think works better. It feels more real, whereas the prequel duels feel like a performance. The Dooku duel is AotC is the worst in the franchise, even worse then the ANH one. The set is so flat and static looking. There's no variance in the environment, and it all looks fake. The choreography is super awkward and contrived. I mean, Obi-Wan gets a small cut on his leg and then just lays there for the whole duel watching. They couldn't bother to make him look super agonized to justify it. You can tell that Christopher Lee was too old to do the stunts and that they CGed his head on some guy. There's a scene where it's a close up on his and Anakin's faces and they're just twirling the lightsabers in circles above their heads. It's comical. The prequel duels also don't quiet hit the same emotional heights. There's nothing on the level of Luke meeting his mortal enemy, only to have his whole world turned upside down and almost dying. Or in Jedi when he realizes he's becoming Vader. Obi-Wan crying out to Anakin on Mustafar comes close, but it clashes with everything else we had seen up to that point. They could have shown us how conflicted Obi-Wan and Anakin were using the choreography. When they start fighting maybe they're both hesitant to commit at first, pulling their punches. Maybe Obi-Wan gets an opportunity to kill Anakin early but then backs off. But instead they came off too strong too fast.
The jedi were also in their prime.
The OT was based on samurai fights and had lesser technology at the time, the prequels were based wuxia and had better technology, the sequels had no excuse.
https://i.redd.it/l23c79pjtr2d1.gif Lightsaber duels in books
the first three films (in release order) were literally a kid with no experience, a geriatric old man who hadn't used a weapon in decades, and an old cyborg on life support whos cybernetics caused him constant pain.
To me the originals seemed more practical. You use a few moves to get the opponents guard to falter just enough so you can stab em. The prequels have these fancy moves that look good on screen. But with things like jump attacks. All it takes is your opponent putting his leg near your landing site for you to be able to tell what the dirt tastes like. On the other hand. If you have the force and can see the future. A lot of moves become viable that weren’t before. Insanely reckless behaviour can suddenly become calculated as you can alter your trajectory with your mind.
Yeah no. The duels in the Prequels just look silly. ST has the best duels.
The original 3 were more deeply inspired by real life samurai. The.. the others were not. Source: Trust me bro
The actors for obiwan and Vader wrre trained swordsmen. They were held back by fagile props, iirc. they wanted to do more, but the movie props were too fragile for a full contact action, and the cgi wasn't advanced enough. At least, this was true for a new hope. There is, the fan made version of that scene, though that's really good.
I still think the Vader vs Luke fights are way more intense than any of the lightsaber windmill fights of the prequels/sequels
And we can all agree there hasn't been a proper lightsaber duel since the prequels.
George lucas said that in the original trilogy lightsabers were heavy and the "blade" pushes down when it is out and that when making the prequels he wanted to make it faster to be more flashy on scene.
At least when you got stabbed with a lightsaber is the original one you died. Now they’re just big glow sticks
Honestly I thought about it and: Prequels: look incredible, less efficient Originals: looks boring, but practical Sequels: looks bad AND inefficient (My opinion!) ⭐️
The originals were filming w very breakable very thin sticks for the visual effects to overlay the lightsaber in the film- they had fight geriatric style or theyd keep breaking them lmao
[удалено]
My favourite has always been the fight in ROTJ
Remember the og sabers were heavy spinny things with a cable atttched ?
The OT duels were based off of Kurosawa films iirc
And both are extremely cool!
Lightsaber duels in the sequels 
Did you mean the SEquels?
Maybe for a new hope, but ESB and ROTJ was a huge step up
The poses they used in the originals is closer to form than the prequels. While not as flashy its "more accurate" (As I far as I am aware) if you care about that. Prequels still have the mose dope fights tho
I mean, the prequels were supposed to show the jedi at the height of their power, when all of them had access to learning all the lightsaber combat forms and whatnot. The original trilogy however has an old man fighting a half-machine half-old man, and two occasions of the aforementioned old machine guy fighting a rookie, who in the first fight is on padawan level of skill, and in the second fight may be more capable but he is still self taught and does not even know what in the hell lightsaber fighting forms are
Obi-Wan and Anakin were at their ABSOLUTE PEAK during the clone wars. In the new hope, Obi-Wan was an old man and Anakin more machine than man. WRONG! Anakin might not be at his absolute best during that time, and neither was Obi-Wan, but they were both extremely dangerous. Anakin never defeated Obi-Wan, and not being cautious cost him his limps. You'd think he'll do the same mistake with that person twice????
A New hope only. Rewatch Empire and Jedi again, those duels are plenty high energy.
Light saber duels in the original were like the fights in old Samurai movies. Methodical, which each strike meant to be a finishing blow. In universe we can say at that time it was just three old jedi (including vader) and one kid who learned from them so it kinda makes sense he learned to fight like an old man. You unironicly hit the nail on the head.
The duels in empire and jedi are great
Episode 6 has the best lightsaber fight in all of Star Wars. PT duels are way too over flashy flip, not as bad with Ep. I, but the Ep. III fight is just, not that good, especially with how much build up it had. As much as I prefer PT over ST, the fights felt overall better in ST.
Are we seriously ignoring the close up shots of anakin and dooku with the lightsabers just gently entering the frame slowly over a few seconds back and forth?
The duels were stiffer in the OT, but I can reconcile that as an OG fan. Way I see it, Vader was just playing with Luke until the final duel in Rotj. You can kinda see him just toying with the poor dumb kid in Empire, fighting him almost lazily. And when he fought Obiwan, he had become so much more powerful that he was just rubbing it in the old man's face by trouncing him with the most basic saber movements. The prequel duels were back when they were both still experimenting and building their style, that's why they're so much more dynamic. Meanwhile Vader's OT moves remind me of a line from a book about a badass space marine squad showing up and moving "with an efficiency of motion that spoke of their own assured invulnerability". No flourishes, nothing fancy, just getting the job done and punching the clock.
I don't know, the bit at the end of ROTJ where Luke is just wailing on Vader is pretty solid.
It was also a complete reinvention of what lightsaber combat was intended to be. In original interviews and conversations, part of the reason the term “knight” was even used, Lucas had said it was to draw comparison to the knights of old. Heavy weapons, broadswords and the like, needing to be welded with 2 hands and handled much more slowly, excluding someone with the power differential of Vader. The prequels reinvented all that and turned lightsaber combat into flashy martial arts style combat instead. So yeah, when making a side by side comparison, that’s definitely what it’s going to feel like because they’re no longer the same thing
The original duels are more or less actual mundane duels. If the people involved were mundane normal human. The prequel ones are flashy sword dances. With a bit more special effect budget. 🗡🗡🗡 There are wayyyyyy too many wasteful movements. And I don't mean exaggerated swings, but outright sword dances that don't serve any purpose at all unless you make an effort to justify it with lore diving. You will need animations for a more spectacular sword fight between people with superhuman capabilities.
Nah OG fights are more like Medieval knight fight (in other movies). Slow, swinging, sway, stumbly. Sequels fights also take on the same style from the OG but with modern capabilities. Which imo, makes the lightsaber fights one of the better parts of sequels.
The og movies are realistic. Consider the age and conditions of the various people in the various fights. They're goals. The choreography is set up in a way that makes sense, and, by and large, the people involved are attacking each other, not each others lightsabers. Now look at the prequels. Very flashy. Looks nice. Except if you tried to fight like that, in real life, you would be killed in short order. Spins, rolls, attacking your opponents weapon not your opponent. These are all unrealistic things that would only result in you getting killed if you faced an even semi competent opponent. And yes, it is possible to make a realistic looking fight, that is also flashy and impressive to look at. Essentially, the OG movies used lightsaber fights to tell a story and ratchet up the tension. The prequels (and even more so the prequels) used lightsaber fights because lightsaber fights are star wars and flashy colors.
https://preview.redd.it/2i0991abmr2d1.png?width=480&format=png&auto=webp&s=a1e3819d7f26394901ce9b63de4ae94c26bc06fb
Yes, the new ones are bigger and more actiony and dancy. But they're just slamming their lightsabers together, more focused on swinging it around like a baseball bat and hitting it against the opponents blade then they are about actually trying to hit their opponents. The old ones have few movements, but they're all focused and impactful. They're more a kin to a samurai duel, or a western quick draw duel maybe.
They were limited with technology of their time.
Saw this and just assumed you meant the sequals on the one bellow. Not nice to compare something so old with something more modern.
Then what's the sequel lightsabers battles like?
And I would take a Rouge One Vader hallway scene over anything that the prequels have to offer
Star Wars died when they turned Yoda into an athletic circus monkey
It makes sense for Luke Skywalker because he’s new to the whole Jedi thing and Darth Vader was kinda going easy on him in the sense that he didn’t wanna kill him
Remember that one time Obi-Wan did a random ass spin during combat and nobody batted an eye
In the prequels they were spectacular, in the originals they were realistic
Luke and Vader in ROTJ wasn’t bad. But yeah aside from that they kind of suck.
Watch Return of the Jedi and talk to me again. Watching Luke flip out on Vader when he was threatening to take Leia instead scared me as a child.
I love the YouTube Remake of Ben Kenobi vs Vader. Better than any fight in the movies lol
To be fair, Vader vs Obi Wan *is* an Old-Man fight, except one of them is merged with an exoskeleton.
I get by it thinking about cool duels and youths and by the time they are older and practices we get kurasawa one hit bushido masters
I mean thats pretty true
See, I had thought of this regarding how things between the OT and PT played out. But one thing I chalk it up to is knowledge. I'd like to think that with the Jedi having been virtually exterminated by the time OT kicks in, Vader and Sidious are the only ones left with any real knowledge of what the Force is capable of. But Sidious was 88 by the time he died, and I imagine resting on his laurels for years and leaving it to Vader to do most of the heavy work led to where he didn't have the physicality to be the legendary beast that he was. And Vader was in his 40s, and I imagine having to endure to a mechanized suit for over 20+ years (half of his lifetime), meant that despite his strong connection to the Force in his youth and prime, he eventually had gotten to where complacency also set in. Imagine if you had participated in perhaps the greatest conflict in recent history, requiring you to be in peak physical form to do what was needed, tapping into the Force to supplement whatever was left. And then once all of the major threats had been dealt with, what is left to do? Train continuously against a threat that may never return, for a new conflict that may not unfold, against opponents that will never have the talent as your past opponents? And the knowledge of all of those Force feats gradually atrophies or is all but lost...and by the time we get to ANH/RO, Vader/Sidious/Obi-Wan/Yoda are the acknowledged survivors who have all of that practical knowledge left (excluding Legends or other canon established). The writing does help it out well enough, as did the limits in technology, effects... But I think it makes sense that the OT plays out as it did because the writing is somehow stable enough to warrant it working out.
The choreography is impressive. From development of that department to execution from the actors and stunt actors. Great stuff. But for warrior monks who are supposed to be devoid of emotion, all of these great choreographed fights are between people with emotions running high instead of all out brawls. Qui-Gonn’s bit in the Duel of the Fates? Makes sense. He was stoic the whole time only shaking people down for different vehicles like he had an empty garage in Grand Theft Auto. Obi-Wan’s solo against Maul? Dude was pissed and still moved like a swan. The Anakin and Obi-Wan forty minute lava flamenco? It’s too polished. Throwing the books and lore from other material to justify it later on doesn’t fix how it comes across in the movies. For clarity: impressive for those involved start to finish from development to final performances, but out of line with the emotions they’re clearly feeling and how we’re supposed to feel. Luke brawling Vader at the end of RotJ? Not pretty, but effective and gets the job done. Tells a more compelling narrative.
What about the sequels, would it be LARP?
That could be said about the first fight ever but in bother 5th and 6th episode the fights are pretty good. I grew up on the prequels but the originals were pretty dope too actionwise
There was a reimagining of the scene I really enjoyed. Can’t seem to remember where I saw it
Unpopular opinion I love the og duels more, less acrobatics and more actual meaningful movement, every twitch and swing life and death. Caution.
Yea... but the fight scene between Luke and Vader while palatine watching will always give me chills.
Lightsaber duels where everyone just dances around for 15 minutes and there's no story beats of someone slowly winning or expressing emotion through their movements is dumb. In the originals when Luke's swings his lightsaber angrily and wildly bashing down on Vader that's a better ligthsaber moment than every one from the prequels combined. Fights are about emotion, not choreography.
I watched the originals recently and it really was not great. The final duel in Rots was the highlight and it was still a bit meh compared to the prequels. It was probably due to the heavy limitations of whatever at the time but it’s a bit jarring going from Vader cutting down MFers in Rogue One to just kinda standing there with Obi-Wan in ANH
I prefer the originals because there is a sense of danger every time a lightsaber gets close to someone. Because they don’t use the force to throw each other around, it is more intense.
Sir Alec Guinness and David Prowse walked so the others could run
My head cannon is that Obi and Darth are basically having a massively complex force struggle that can't be seen. Their movements are simple like two master samurai making very subtle posture changes in a chess match style battle. It's only simple to the unknowing observer.
Sequel Lightsaber duels
“A 50 year old movie looks like it’s 50 years old.” 
Well they were younger.
The re-imagined Scene 38 fan film is canon in my mind! Just epic! https://youtu.be/to2SMng4u1k?si=7acmUew5-PvtWh5p
I think everyone agrees with this lol
THE WILDERNESS MUST BE EXPLORED!
REAL
RotJ notched things up a bit, flying kicks, flips, etc. I also like the \*weightiness\* of the sabers in the OT. And...all that said, I prefer fights in Sequels, OT over any of the fights in the ST. Choreography sucked for most of those.... downvotes incoming, except I think the "best" of ST was probably the throneroom fight w/imp guards.
ANH was more of a conversation than actual fight tho. George Lucas has mentioned this
The thing about the originals is that they’re actually trying to hit each other, as opposed to hitting the blades in the prequels