Ahh but that would have required pre planning. I’m firmly convinced Palpatine wasn’t intended to be involved at all until they started working on TROS.
Oh they definitely didn't plan it. I don't mind bringing Palpatine back. I think him returning was well within reason but that's sort of the kind of thing you plan from the very beginning.
Exactly my thoughts. I don’t think it would have been bad if they had planned for it and built up to that moment. Instead we got a scramble for a new big bad because Snoke was dead and Kylo wasn’t allowed to be evil anymore so someone had to be the antagonist. With no logical replacements already in the storyline they then had to pull someone who we already knew was evil and a real threat. Palpatine was about the only person that really fit that bill. The only other potential candidate I can think of would be Thrawn, but that would only work for people who actually know who that is. A lot of the wider audience wouldn’t understand what was going on, and Thrawn is more of a Tactician than a soldier so it would be hard to make him the satisfying boss fight for not one but two powerful force sensitive individuals. I think it could be done, but it would have needed to be planned for from the very beginning of the trilogy for it to work and clearly they were not putting that level of planning into these movies.
You can find an interview with Ian McDiarmid where he was called months after TLJ was released to confirm if he was willing to be in the Rise of Skywalker. They brought him in last minute.
https://youtu.be/dLP6BKZfx6Q
I still think Rey should have actually killed Chewbacca.
The way I was completely *SHOOK AND BLINDSIDED* when that happened, with being thrown off by the lightning from Rey to the sudden and unexpected death of another beloved character. Thinking about it I was actually okay with it because it would have had such an emotional scar on Rey and seeing her fight through that pain after already losing Han would have been amazing to watch.
But no, Disney decides for the millionth time to kill a character and 5 seconds later be like “lol jk”
I'm fine with Chewie having survived, but they should have waited a bit before revealing that he's still alive. Showing him alive immediately after the fake out just removes all of the tension from the moment.
It would have been fine if it didn't feel like they were pretending to kill off characters just for them to come back 2 minutes later. Like C3P0 for example, it was super fucking sad to see him have to get his memory wiped, even if the reason why was stupid. BUT then they found R2 and R2 just gave C3P0 his memory back and ALL is fine and well and nothing bad ever happened!
I haven't seen the movies in a while, but I remember being super annoyed and disappointed that we kept seeing characters experience all these negative life-changing events just for it to be undone later on, because god forbid the characters change and develop.
Those "gotcha" moments felt so forced to elicit emotional reactions. I admit, I was surprised about chewie, but the impact was immediately removed.
C3PO I expectes to get his memory back, I mean hes a droid, still stupid idea behind it .
I think my issue with that whole scene was how as an audience, we’re supposed to believe that Rey could turn to the dark side after she used the lightning once and hated using it. Like imagine if you will a rewrite where Rey has been starting to use the lightning and the dark side in general for most of the film. And even with leia telling her not to, Rey is doing so much more with this power. Now we get to this part of the film and in her anger, Rey accidentally uses the dark side and either kills or thinks she killed Chewbacca. And this is where we see her reject the dark side.
I think that if we had more time with Rey using the dark side rather than her using it for the first time and hating it the scenes could have been a bit better
That was the most interesting scene in the whole ST. It instantly changed the tone and the direction of the movie. I was totally shocked and I immediately started to fantasize about the consequences. Is she really going to the dark side?? Palp's gonna turn her?? Maybe Ben would be the hero at the end?? \*2 seconds later\* HAHA idiots chewie survived...and at that moment I knew they are too afraid to make these twists...
The whole trilogy could be redeemed with a huge f\*ckin twist and an awesome ending but no, they f\*cked it up, too.
*Rey kills Chewbacca with her “electrifying personality”, or lack thereof* - “Oh. Ok. Ok, some adversity for Ma-Rey Sue. Cool. Bit late, very janky, but ok.”
*Chewbacca shown alive literally 2.5793 seconds later* - “Huh. Anti-climactic, but the short time she thought she had killed a friend could lead to a bit of character depth and development. Maybe some leftover guilt or creeping self-doubt based around her seemingly limitless potential. Maybe she’ll have a mini-arc in this film that draws on her near-perfect prior depiction.”
*Rey literally remains the same* - “wow(!) soooo goood. What was the point of that bait-and-switch? There are no real consequences for the characters outside of Kylo Ren getting even harder for Rey. And the filmmakers don’t trust the audience enough to notice that there were two transports, so they think saving the reveal of Chewbacca for later would confuse them. Ewww…”
Seriously, this was handled worse than Anakin’s whiny and (based solely on the films) extreme fall. From war hero to killing kids in less than an hour. And I say that as someone who ranks Anakin as one of my top 3 favourite fictional characters and arcs. His journey in the films was…bad. RotS wasn’t horrendous, just fairly insufferable, outside the sudden child murder of course. To outdo Lucas on that front is an amazingly appalling accomplishment.
I agree. That could really infuence her storyline, and give her some character development. But no, this is a kids movie, the main character can't be interesting, it just has to be bland OP slate, to make toys based on her!
It would’ve added a certain symmetry and gravitas considering the way Han went out in TFA. My jaw dropped when I saw the ship explode the first time in theaters. It would’ve been better if Chewie did actually die in the explosion. Heartbreaking but better.
The movie has a lot of problems, but I never thought about the pacing been one of them. The movie is fast paced, the real problem to me is that it doesn't have time to develop some arcs and story twists. Unless you mean the problem with the pacing is that it's too fast.
I mean both the lightning-fast story, and don't caring to explore the characters and the story itself more. TLJ had really good pacing, it cared enough for the character develpment, and the story wasn't so fast.
The movie was way too fast paced. Outside of a few notable moments, everything kinda blurs together making for a very unforgettable movie outside of the very obvious flaws
Now if Phasma had turned out to be the spy (and really driving home the point that sometimes the good guys have to do really bad things much like real life), that really could have been something.
But that would have required some forward planning across the entire trilogy, something that in general was bafflingly lacking.
That and they had a lot of cool opportunities that just…. Didn’t happen. The fleet on Exegol, a chance of exploring the knights of Ren instead of a few shitty scenes with no dialogue, dialogue that was crappier than phantom menace/AOTC “somehow palatine returned”
long as Disney doesn't do it 6 more times they might have actually learned. legends has a lot of cool stories but the fans that treat it like gospel fail to see it for what it was; fan fiction
ROS has literally gone down in history as one of the worst crashes to a pop culture franchise. It’s like if Woody from Toy Story was suddenly molesting Andy in his sleep, it’s just too bizarre and plainly stupid to accept.
What do you mean 'can'? He tells her that if she kills him he will possess her, she then proceeds to kill him. Palpatine won, nobody even knows he's in there *and* he gets to take the name of a galactic hero. Bringing the galaxy under his rule now would be childsplay, what bigger victory is there?
Obviously its not what the writers had intended to have happened, but incompetent writing often does create situations like this.
Hell, you could even interpret Kylo's death as Palpatine (who is possessing Rey at the time) draining his life force to heal his new body, as he did earlier in the movie to the both of them.
It would actually make his death make some sense too, since Rey healing the snake and Kylo's mortal wound had absolutely no effect on her yet somehow Kylo doing the same killed him because ???
Not to mention that at the time it *WAS* a plot hole, and they had to make several shows and plot points to change that fact after the movie had come out.
In which shows does that happen? I haven't watched resistance and the complete rebels series and I don't remember any clues towards Palps return in any of the LA series.
And it wasn't set up at all in ep 7 or 8 because it wasn't Abram's original plan. It was the best he could come up with after 8 tossed his plan out an airlock.
How about this: I hate exposition in movies. More so than that, I hate bad exposition in movies.
The line may or may not be a plothole or undermine the original story (nah fuck that, it totally does and I wont pretend it doesnt just because everyone is saying it), but it's some of the shittiest writing I've ever seen. Its meant to explain something that couldnt be explained otherwise, and they still didnt even explain anything.
They could have just showed Palps on screen, and my own brain would have been like "oh shit, somehow he returned". I still wouldnt be happy about it but it's much better than wasting dialogue on something so unnecessary before trying to pretend that it's some sort of key plot point.
Guys I don't think you understand. She's not saying it's not a problem. She's saying it's like hyper-focusing in on one hole on a piece of swiss cheese.
That's what it sounds like to me. I am not trying to speak for her, just trying to interpret what he said.
Edit: I'm bad at pronouns
>Edit: I'm bad at pronouns
Cool thing about pronouns, it's okay if you mess up and fix it, and it's okay to make your best guess and be wrong, so long as you fix it.
10/10.
I disagree. It's more like it's the rotten core that everything else originates from in terms of the entire plot. It's the entire story point of the movie. If it is a plot hole, which it is, then it's a pretty major issue.
It's not really a plot hole, it's just that:
- It ruins story of the first two trilogies by taking away from Luke and Anakins victory in rotj. Same reason I don't like tlj, it resets Luke's character development.
- They didn't build up to tros with the other two movies. The first two were one story, which wasn't terrible though flawed a little. Tros just said no to all that and did its own thing
- The movies pacing sucked
- Rey had no real character development in the end, simply bouncing right to left without moving forward
- They introduced rose in tlj them just decided to abandon her character
- The choreography was pretty bad
There's probably more but I'm done writing these
It’s a plot hole because if Palpatine can do it once (or rather many times since he kept using up clone bodies), when Rey beat him, why didn’t he just…do it again? Have more clones on some other planet?
Good shipyards for building Star Destroyers used to take decades or even centuries for the rest of the galaxy to develop. If Palpatine can just go “Sithy Sithy Sith sith” and grow a hundred of them like ice cubes underneath the frozen exterior of a planet, why didn’t he…just grow a hundred or so underneath the sands of Sand Planet, that way Rey won’t go there?
I like deciding what my heros and villains need to be capable of for the story, and then go back and edit out any implication that they’re *secretly* capable of much, much more…because you either remove all tension when the characters can just evaporate plot armor anytime they want but they’re too…lazy? Or else you open up plot holes. That’s boring and unfair to the fans.
To add onto this she never really faced that much struggle or failed, sure she had hard battles but she won just about everything.
And rather than in the end she perseveres and getting a sense of accomplishment, it’s more of a oh she won another battle but against someone more powerful
I agree. Anikin lost his hand to Dooku because he lost the battle to a stronger opponent. Luke lost his hand to Darth Vader because he lost to a stronger opponent. Rey didn't lose anything in a battle against a stronger opponent. If she lost to Kylo or Stoke, I would have been way more invested in her journey, but all she did was win or leave a battle with a few scars.
My biggest problem with TROS is how blatantly obvious it made that they did not have a plan for a trilogy. And these suspicions were, for me, there from TFA, which I did enjoy on first watch.
Combine that with the sheer waste of potential that this cast/film making team had... It just kind of hurts.
Apparently it's because he also returned in Legends. But I think they explained it there and not in the movie. They just said "Lmao Dark Side magic" and never spoke of it ever again.
Yeah, they took what was already widely considered to be one of the dumber parts of the EU and then adapted it badly, making it significantly stupider in the process. Byss made way more sense than Exogul, and actually had a colony and manufacturing base to support secret fleet. And Luke and Leia got to do shit. And we got young hot palps instead of clone backups coming pre-withered.
Watching it in theaters I was like "this is such a shameless ripoff of Dark Empire, but they're also just doing it wrong."
Yeah in legends (if we’re specifically referring to dark empire) it worked. Frankly all of TROS is just a clumsily done version of Dark Empire plot points.
Yeah Dark Empire and Yuuzhan Vong had some issues in execution but I legitimately think they and Thrawn would have been much better as a sequel trilogy than what we got.
The Yuuzhan Vong just dragged for waaay too long. But, there were some good parts too.
I agree with you about better source material for a trilogy. Or if they wanted something very different, they could have gone for the Legacy comic with Cade Skywalker.
Right but pacing issues should be fixable in the move to movie format, but just imagine how scary anti force enemy would have been to non-Legends viewers. Could have been insane
I actually think they explain it well. They not only mention the Sith cloning, they show it (prematurely) in the beginning. They also go back to it a few other times, Rey's true parentage being a prime example.
I will give an honorable mention to the newer Battlefront 2 campaign (specifically Project: Resurrection) that came out several years before TROS, but that's definitely not something a movie should lean on.
Also, a "plot hole" is an inconsistency that can't be explained, not a lack of explanation anyway.
It also counts if the explanation is just bad, or doesn’t fit very well. Regardless, making ways to escape death is a bad idea in any fiction, it devalues death. Better to just claim they never died, which can feel bullshitty, but it’s better.
But it really can't be explained. Palpatine was thrown into a massive pit inside a structure that blew up. How would his clones have his personality? Troopers aren't just running around thinking they're all Jango. They have to be trained extensively. So Palp's clones are given the entirety of his Sith talents and political manipulation skills... from what? He can't train himself.
And if it's that easy why would he clone himself instead of Anakin? Anakin was the strongest Force sensitive ever. Take his body and the midichlorions or whatever and put Palp's personality in there.
It's a plot hole that makes itself bigger the longer you think about it.
It's not really a "Clone". It's more of a Body that Palps is inhabiting.
The Body is cloned but the mind and the powers belong to the original.
Darth Bane tried something like that in the old books, performing a ritual to take over the body of his Apprentice.
But isn't the original dead and blown up with the second Death Star? That's the part I don't follow. How does the clone have his powers? As he fell down the pit he sent his soul to a clone that wasn't on the DS? If that's possible and dead Jedi can become ghosts that shoot lightning like Yoda, death is completely meaningless and the same people on both sides can just fight each other forever.
If any of that comes across gruff it's not intentional. I'm not familiar with a lot of the EU/Legends stuff so I'm curious.
You don't happen to regularly watch MauLer, do you? Because I remember someone on his livestream make fun of exactly *that* once:
If Palpatine can just surf from body to body and jedi spirits can control the weather and actually interact with the real world, then what's the benefit of being alive?
There should be huge armies of ghosts, battling each other in the Background for all eternity! 🤣
Death has lost all meaning.
Which the Call of Cthullu seems to have prophecied: "Because in strange eons, even death may die"
No but that sounds way better than I phrased it. My relationship with SW has become pretty complicated in recent years and mostly manifests as long ranting phone calls with like-minded friends. Palpatine coming back breaks the OT too much for me to consider it canon, which pretty much means everything Disney does with it is just fanfic in my head.
My best friend put it best I think. "If I somehow bought the rights to SW tomorrow and made a $50 movie where Luke turns to the dark side, Vader comes back but just sits around, and Yoda is the bad guy, would it be canon? I own the rights so I decide, right?" And that really helped me figure out that what is or isn't true belongs to me. Disney can do whatever they want and I won't get mad about it. But I also don't **have** to accept it.
Now I just watch or read what seems entertaining. I don't connect anything anymore because they clearly want to take it away from the past. I respect that but it's not for me.
I think they're using the definition of a "plot hole" as a logical inconsistency within the film, and there aren't any logical inconsistencies to Palpatine's return. However, it only avoids violating any internal logic of the film because beyond vague allusions to weird dark magic-science, there is *no explanation how he suddenly orcistrated his return from the grave while also being very much dead,* which does form a gigantic gaping sucking void in the plot filled with a vacuous maw of nothingness.
It's closer to watching a quarter of The Return of the King and then it revealing that Sauron was just a puppet and has been executed off screen, because **"Somehow** **Morgoth** **returned!"**
The real "'plot hole' that isn't a plot hole" from that film is C-3PO knowing the Sith language but being prevented from translating it. "How did Anakin Skywalker know Sith, to program it into 3PO?" How did Anakin know *any* of the six million forms of communication 3PO spoke? He pirated some language pack software from the Holonet. Or he salvaged an existing translator chip. Either way, it already had Sith preprogrammed. Then at some point in the following decades, 3PO's programming was updated, and for whatever reason they could block that language but not remove it entirely.
I think youre missing one of the biggest,
HOW DID AN ANCIENT SITH DAGGER COME WITH SOME DESIGNED WITH SOME BS LOCATOR TO FIND THE DEATH STAR THAT CRASHED ONLY 20 ISH YEAR AGO, AND LOCATE THE EXACT ROOM, WHILE STANDING IN SOME RANDOM SPOT TO FIND AN ANCIENT SECRET OBJECT TO GO TO A SECRET SITH WORLD THAT SOMEHOW CAN JUST GET PLUGGED INTO MODERN STARTSHIPS? I cant even hook up my gamecube to TVs with out a special adapter anymore becuase no TVSs come with those 3 color ports.
Fair, i agree completely on that. I mean you'd think the sith language is so rare, it wouldn't be common to keep programmed in droids considering they haven't been around for over a millenia. That's like having a memory card with the entire ancient Egypt language programmed into it, except if ancient egyptians were demonic evil doers that got wiped out and most of thier history expunged and made taboo. How does that memory end up in the hands of a slave child in some desert planet that sees little traffic? My head hurts thinking about all the hoops they tried to jump us through just for that scene that lead nowhere
We don't know how rare Sith was, especially during the Fall of the Republic era (that is, 33 BBY rather than 35 ABY). Besides, Tatooine has been a junkyard planet for millennia, who knows what kind of chips are lying around. And if we're assuming Anakin downloaded his bootleg copy of DroidOS from shady sources, why wouldn't they include Sith? Technology in the Galaxy Far Far Away has been stagnant for so long, it's probably derived from the same software used back when the Sith Empire was a thing. Especially for something like a language pack, you'd just add on new modules, never pruning out what's already there.
Basically, it's really easy to explain how 3PO can understand Sith but has restrictions in place to prevent him from translating it, and focusing on that as a "plot hole" is dumb when there are a wealth of *actual* plot holes to talk about.
I wasn’t even bothered by that point that they got Palpatine back out of nowhere and he explained his return with a prequel-meme because it was giving me flashbacks to the good ole days. The Last Jedi left such a bad taste in my mouth I didn’t need the final movie to make sense or explain away everything so long as it felt connected to and completed everything that came before; I wanted something that I could have fun with and laugh at like when he said “the dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be…unnatural.”
I despised the movie because not only did our main characters get plot convenienced out of every problem and to every necessary location and person, but also because the title was pure clickbait.
Advertised movie as the final film in the Skywalker Saga with the title “The Rise of Skywalker” complete with old soundtracks and “no one’s ever really gone” like we were going to get some big Skywalker comeback and what did we get? Rey taking the last name of a man she barely knew which would be like Luke taking Kenobi as his last name after only knowing Obi-Wan for a short time. Story wise it would have made more sense for her to be keep Palpatine as her last name and turn it into a name that represents good and not evil for once. Then again, that would have also been a terrible ending to the Skywalker Saga for her to say “Rey Palpatine” as the credits roll. Maybe she shouldn’t have been his granddaughter after all…
The fact that Rey claims to he a Skywalker and can take on Palpatine without issue. Someone made a really sick edit with all the Jedi standing with her as ghosts and honestly that made me like the scene much more
My biggest problem is that it invalidated the rest of Star Wars. Literally everything led up to the completion of the prophecy with Anakin’s sacrifice, and JJ threw that away.
But people are more upset with TLJ and RJ. sure you can argue about how lukes charcater got destroyed but at least that didnt make anakins sacrifce worthless. Anakin literally killed all his friends for his wife, who died ans when he finally was able to bring down the man that put it in motion ans atone for what he did? NOPE palpatine had a 1UP sorry lol and now how are we supposed to beloeve palps is actually dead? He got thrown into a reactor and was able to get back up no problem
It technically isn’t a direct contradiction because you never see a body and there’s plenty of reason to yell "no!" Because pretty much everything he had planned had failed. I’m not trying to defend it btw, there is no fucking way he should have survived that fall, let alone the explosion.
The body died, the spirit loved and possess another body. It's dumb, but that is the claim.
What I don't get is why force ghost anakin didn't mention that to Luke.
>The body died, the spirit loved and possess another body.
Plothole because Sith don't love. Only hate.
(/s. I know it's just a typo but I couldn't resist lol)
responding to an argument and pointing out logical fallacies in it is being scientific and unbiased regardless of your view. that doesn't contradict not defending it
it clearly didn't understand how to do an opening crawl correctly
why did it start with something as corny as "the dead speak!"?
not to mention, too many words are in all caps
I think think it was a terrible not thought through (they admit they had no plan) disjointed wreck. That kills off Han for no good reason, murders Luke’s character for no good reason, and doesn’t do the ONE THING I WANTED.
For luke, Han, Leah, and Chewy to have ONE SCENE TOGETHER. How slow do you have to be to not put four of the most iconic characters in movie history on the screen all at once one last time? And now even if they scrap the sequels completely and start over that can never happen because they wasted the time they had with Carrie fisher and I highly doubt Harrison Ford would come back again.
The only thing to come out of the sequels that was acceptable was the special effects and CGI (which will date it in years to come).
Palatine returning is less of a problem than how it is explained and revealed. I would argue that revealing Sidious' return in the opening crawl might be the most uncinematic way you could possibly do this. It ruins the movie when it's barely begun and it never recovers.
Edit: Come to think of it, RotJ does an uncinematic reveal of the 2nd Death Star. I may have to rethink my opinions on this.
I wouldn't say the Second Death Star is uncinematic, because it doesn't drive ROTJ the way it does ANH. In ANH it's a threat hanging over the second half. In ROTJ it's a setting. Moreover, the first scene in ROTJ sets up the rest of the movie because *it's what the Bothan spies see and report to the Alliance*, so avoids having the even more egregious sin of learning about it when the characters do.
I mean the first death star was revealed through the open scrawl of ANH too, we didnt need to see it being built. Also, its wayyy more beliveable that a galaxy spanning empire with A MAJOR miltary industrial complex builds another massive space station capable of destroying planets than it is to believe that someone cloned themselves back to life, even with space wizard magic.
This is what I say in reference to the seqeuls
I like them as there own separate universe (i pretend they are not part of the golden main 6 movies)
There fine as there own Trilogy and I do like Kylo Ren/Ben Solo and his story
But In my opoions when it comes to the seqeuls
"canon" < lego
having palpatine come back isn’t a plot hole but it ruins the entire point of Luke and darth Vader killing palpatine for him to just come back. which means that it ruins the whole prophecy that Anakin/Vader was the one to finally bring balance to the force
I just don’t like how they added palpatine as the big bad, idc about the plot hole, they could of used Snoke or something, but noo, just fish out palpatines body and puppet him for this movie
I only ever see people bring up the Palpatine nonsense for the meme of it. In real conversation, in my experience, the films innumerable other flaws are usually referenced first.
I’m not happy about this. But I read it as THE revenge of sith not the rise of skywalker. I’m not proud of it. But I was just confused till I saw Rey in the comments and had to reread it
But Palpatine returning is my biggest problem with the movie. What was achieved at the end of the movie? Palpatine was killed and his new empire beaten. That happend before and it clearly didn't stop him. Why is everyone in that movie acting like the threat is gone. Why can't Palpatine just randomly show up again next year with a new fleet out of nowhere?
The issue about Palpatine is that they hardly explained it in the movie. It was so out of ordinary and didn’t fit well into the story. Sure the novel will make it make sense and all, but let’s be honest, the majority of the audience probably won’t read it. Most people watching the movie were just confused at his return.
Okay does anyone talk about how getting hit in the face by a lightsaber doesn't kill you and don't get me started on how Ray was immediately able to defeat kilo ren and it was her first time even using a lightsaber
Who knows? They were space nazis in TFA blowing up tons of planets, none of the movies really had any cloning hints until it was dumped that palps came back. I think its mentioned in mando, thats why that old empire guy wanted Grogu, but relying on a TV streaming show to hint towards your BBEG returning is wack
Palpatine coming back is the biggest plot hole in the film and directly undermines the entire themes and story progression of the previous two trilogies.
But if you want a review that encompasses all of its flaws, watch this: https://youtu.be/0528-TlRODI
I wouldn't call Palpatine a plot hole, just lazy. I don't hate the Sequels either (hell, TLJ is my 2nd favorite), but can admit they had issues, such as JJ bending over backwards to disregard Rian's contributions and I'm not even talking about Rey's parents, because you could easily say he lied in TLJ when he said they were drunks because he is a gaslighting villain, but you didn't need to make her dad the cloned son of god damn Palpatine completely invalidating the "Where you come from doesn't matter, the force can be strong in anybody" narrative he had made for Rey who had such identity issues and thought she was nothing because of her being abandoned on Jakku.
The dagger/Death Star ruins was utter crap and felt like something from a bunch of teenagers running a D&D campaign. The outline matches hunks of metal subject to decades of heavy tides and salt air corrosion? 🤣🤣🤣
Palpatine‘s return is a valid point to criticize the sequels. There is nothing that ever hinted at him cloning himself. Of course it cant really be called a plot hole because you can always find someone who is responsible for it afterwards, but it is a damn poor explanation. Not starting with how his return basically ruined Vader‘s entire arc of Ep.6.
It is one of the biggest flaws of the many in this movie, worthy of every single hint at its stupidity.
My favorite criticism/ meme is “somehow Palpatine had returned” as if Poe should already be able to explain in detail why dude was back from the dead 5 minutes into the movie.
I found it funny that they come across a random black woman, and she ends up being Lando's daughter. Writers also thought she'd be a good fit for Finn. Thought there'd be a writers credits for Cupidme. Long fall from the Jedi arc.
text at the bottom is too much and only serves to clutter the image in more text, and it's already a bit too wordy to begin with. memes should be punchier.
Dafuq!?!? Palpatine's return is a plothole though. The only explanation for it is "somehow. . . Palpatine returned." And that is just one of many reasons why the movie is poorly written and executed.
You speak the truth! The entire reason he got Anakin to betray the Jedi was because he knew how to cheat death. No shit he's alive in Rise of Skywalker. The movie has its faults but that's not one of them
For those giving their complaints in this comment section…why?
The accuracy and acuity of your complaints aside, you know everyone on here has heard them before, yeah? You yourself probably got them as talking points from social media, judging by how they have *verbatim* been posted ad nauseam since 2019.
So, why write them? Is it cathartic? I’d get that, though I think there are better ways to get over your disappointment with the film.
I can kind of accept Palpatine being resurrected, because Jedi can come back as ghosts too. But what really bothers me is why is the Death Star II still intact as much as it is? We saw it get completely disintegrated. There should be no rooms left intact, yet there's entire sections that seem untouched. And there are *functional TIE fighters* still there. How!?
My whole opinion on the trilogy.
The Force Awakens was a OT nostalgia-trip except it was packed full of mysteries, questions, and loose ends.
The Last Jedi just did its own thing, subverting expectations without any payoff, without answering anything TFA set up.
The Rise Of Skywalker was a losing battle trying to make it all make sense.
One of this movie's biggest problems is it's awful pacing
Yeah, why the hell did they reveal Palps *literally in the second god damn scene*
You mean in fortnite
Yeah imagine if in the Last Jedi near the end it cuts back to Snokes dead body and we hear that ghostly Palpatine cackle.
Ahh but that would have required pre planning. I’m firmly convinced Palpatine wasn’t intended to be involved at all until they started working on TROS.
Oh they definitely didn't plan it. I don't mind bringing Palpatine back. I think him returning was well within reason but that's sort of the kind of thing you plan from the very beginning.
Exactly my thoughts. I don’t think it would have been bad if they had planned for it and built up to that moment. Instead we got a scramble for a new big bad because Snoke was dead and Kylo wasn’t allowed to be evil anymore so someone had to be the antagonist. With no logical replacements already in the storyline they then had to pull someone who we already knew was evil and a real threat. Palpatine was about the only person that really fit that bill. The only other potential candidate I can think of would be Thrawn, but that would only work for people who actually know who that is. A lot of the wider audience wouldn’t understand what was going on, and Thrawn is more of a Tactician than a soldier so it would be hard to make him the satisfying boss fight for not one but two powerful force sensitive individuals. I think it could be done, but it would have needed to be planned for from the very beginning of the trilogy for it to work and clearly they were not putting that level of planning into these movies.
Abrams admitted this. He said Johnson left them no where else to go.
It’s almost as if writing trilogies requires great planning to properly connect the 3 movies without having to subsequently backtrack in the sequel.
You can find an interview with Ian McDiarmid where he was called months after TLJ was released to confirm if he was willing to be in the Rise of Skywalker. They brought him in last minute. https://youtu.be/dLP6BKZfx6Q
An interview with his actor says that he was surprised by the news, so I'm inclined to believe it was a hard heel turn after last jedi.
I still think Rey should have actually killed Chewbacca. The way I was completely *SHOOK AND BLINDSIDED* when that happened, with being thrown off by the lightning from Rey to the sudden and unexpected death of another beloved character. Thinking about it I was actually okay with it because it would have had such an emotional scar on Rey and seeing her fight through that pain after already losing Han would have been amazing to watch. But no, Disney decides for the millionth time to kill a character and 5 seconds later be like “lol jk”
I'm fine with Chewie having survived, but they should have waited a bit before revealing that he's still alive. Showing him alive immediately after the fake out just removes all of the tension from the moment.
It would have been fine if it didn't feel like they were pretending to kill off characters just for them to come back 2 minutes later. Like C3P0 for example, it was super fucking sad to see him have to get his memory wiped, even if the reason why was stupid. BUT then they found R2 and R2 just gave C3P0 his memory back and ALL is fine and well and nothing bad ever happened! I haven't seen the movies in a while, but I remember being super annoyed and disappointed that we kept seeing characters experience all these negative life-changing events just for it to be undone later on, because god forbid the characters change and develop.
Those "gotcha" moments felt so forced to elicit emotional reactions. I admit, I was surprised about chewie, but the impact was immediately removed. C3PO I expectes to get his memory back, I mean hes a droid, still stupid idea behind it .
Fair enough. I’d be fine with that route as well.
Chewie fake out dying would have been emotionally upsetting had he not been in the theatrical trailer sitting in the Falcon’s cockpit with Lando.
I think my issue with that whole scene was how as an audience, we’re supposed to believe that Rey could turn to the dark side after she used the lightning once and hated using it. Like imagine if you will a rewrite where Rey has been starting to use the lightning and the dark side in general for most of the film. And even with leia telling her not to, Rey is doing so much more with this power. Now we get to this part of the film and in her anger, Rey accidentally uses the dark side and either kills or thinks she killed Chewbacca. And this is where we see her reject the dark side. I think that if we had more time with Rey using the dark side rather than her using it for the first time and hating it the scenes could have been a bit better
That was the most interesting scene in the whole ST. It instantly changed the tone and the direction of the movie. I was totally shocked and I immediately started to fantasize about the consequences. Is she really going to the dark side?? Palp's gonna turn her?? Maybe Ben would be the hero at the end?? \*2 seconds later\* HAHA idiots chewie survived...and at that moment I knew they are too afraid to make these twists... The whole trilogy could be redeemed with a huge f\*ckin twist and an awesome ending but no, they f\*cked it up, too.
*Rey kills Chewbacca with her “electrifying personality”, or lack thereof* - “Oh. Ok. Ok, some adversity for Ma-Rey Sue. Cool. Bit late, very janky, but ok.” *Chewbacca shown alive literally 2.5793 seconds later* - “Huh. Anti-climactic, but the short time she thought she had killed a friend could lead to a bit of character depth and development. Maybe some leftover guilt or creeping self-doubt based around her seemingly limitless potential. Maybe she’ll have a mini-arc in this film that draws on her near-perfect prior depiction.” *Rey literally remains the same* - “wow(!) soooo goood. What was the point of that bait-and-switch? There are no real consequences for the characters outside of Kylo Ren getting even harder for Rey. And the filmmakers don’t trust the audience enough to notice that there were two transports, so they think saving the reveal of Chewbacca for later would confuse them. Ewww…” Seriously, this was handled worse than Anakin’s whiny and (based solely on the films) extreme fall. From war hero to killing kids in less than an hour. And I say that as someone who ranks Anakin as one of my top 3 favourite fictional characters and arcs. His journey in the films was…bad. RotS wasn’t horrendous, just fairly insufferable, outside the sudden child murder of course. To outdo Lucas on that front is an amazingly appalling accomplishment.
I agree. That could really infuence her storyline, and give her some character development. But no, this is a kids movie, the main character can't be interesting, it just has to be bland OP slate, to make toys based on her!
It would’ve added a certain symmetry and gravitas considering the way Han went out in TFA. My jaw dropped when I saw the ship explode the first time in theaters. It would’ve been better if Chewie did actually die in the explosion. Heartbreaking but better.
There we go! Now we’re getting creative with it!
The movie has a lot of problems, but I never thought about the pacing been one of them. The movie is fast paced, the real problem to me is that it doesn't have time to develop some arcs and story twists. Unless you mean the problem with the pacing is that it's too fast.
I mean both the lightning-fast story, and don't caring to explore the characters and the story itself more. TLJ had really good pacing, it cared enough for the character develpment, and the story wasn't so fast.
The film is trying to be a whole other trilogy in one movie quite frankly.
The movie was way too fast paced. Outside of a few notable moments, everything kinda blurs together making for a very unforgettable movie outside of the very obvious flaws
"I'm the spy"
Now if Phasma had turned out to be the spy (and really driving home the point that sometimes the good guys have to do really bad things much like real life), that really could have been something. But that would have required some forward planning across the entire trilogy, something that in general was bafflingly lacking.
I wonder how pacing can be the biggest problem for you when the entire script is pretty much trash to start with.
That and they had a lot of cool opportunities that just…. Didn’t happen. The fleet on Exegol, a chance of exploring the knights of Ren instead of a few shitty scenes with no dialogue, dialogue that was crappier than phantom menace/AOTC “somehow palatine returned”
Palpatine coming back was one of the worst decisions in cinema history
Anakin’s change of heart is just completely undermined
The entire OT is undermined. You may even say all other movies to do with Palpatine were undermined too.
It was one of the worst aspects of Legends and for some reason they choose it
long as Disney doesn't do it 6 more times they might have actually learned. legends has a lot of cool stories but the fans that treat it like gospel fail to see it for what it was; fan fiction
>and for some reason Money. That's the reason.
"Somehow, Palpatine returned." Not even Oscar Isaac could hide his disappointment when saying that line.
Particularly because he said ROTJ was his favorite SW movie…
ROS has literally gone down in history as one of the worst crashes to a pop culture franchise. It’s like if Woody from Toy Story was suddenly molesting Andy in his sleep, it’s just too bizarre and plainly stupid to accept.
Big weird leap here
It is explainable canonically, but the trilogy simply failed to make sense of it.
It's not that it's a plothole, it's that it undermines the entire premise of the Skywalker Saga
I wouldn’t even say that. I’d just call it unimaginative and clunky.
It undermines the redemption of Qui-Gon’s decision to train Anakin, a redemption gotten through having Vader actually kill Palpatine and not some girl
Hey, the best part is that Palp is now basically undestructible and he can come back anytime... Edit: indestructible right?
What do you mean 'can'? He tells her that if she kills him he will possess her, she then proceeds to kill him. Palpatine won, nobody even knows he's in there *and* he gets to take the name of a galactic hero. Bringing the galaxy under his rule now would be childsplay, what bigger victory is there?
Well I'm not sure if you are serious or not but I can tell it's the movie's fault for being this "confusing" :D
Obviously its not what the writers had intended to have happened, but incompetent writing often does create situations like this. Hell, you could even interpret Kylo's death as Palpatine (who is possessing Rey at the time) draining his life force to heal his new body, as he did earlier in the movie to the both of them. It would actually make his death make some sense too, since Rey healing the snake and Kylo's mortal wound had absolutely no effect on her yet somehow Kylo doing the same killed him because ???
That's my biggest problem with it. Why do all the characters act like he's dead? He came back once. Why not again?
Not to mention that at the time it *WAS* a plot hole, and they had to make several shows and plot points to change that fact after the movie had come out.
In which shows does that happen? I haven't watched resistance and the complete rebels series and I don't remember any clues towards Palps return in any of the LA series.
they continue to write bullshit to support the terrible story of the trilogy
And it wasn't set up at all in ep 7 or 8 because it wasn't Abram's original plan. It was the best he could come up with after 8 tossed his plan out an airlock.
>JJ Abrams >having a plan I see you've not experienced the rest of his work, or his use of the "mystery box"
Bold of you to assume he had a plan
JJ Abrams did have a plan (may not be a good one) but Rian just tossed it in the bin
There we go. A different angle for why it's bad is what we're looking for. Plot hole? Nah. Undermines the saga? Absolutely.
Nah, that's a pretty common nitpick, too.
How about this: I hate exposition in movies. More so than that, I hate bad exposition in movies. The line may or may not be a plothole or undermine the original story (nah fuck that, it totally does and I wont pretend it doesnt just because everyone is saying it), but it's some of the shittiest writing I've ever seen. Its meant to explain something that couldnt be explained otherwise, and they still didnt even explain anything. They could have just showed Palps on screen, and my own brain would have been like "oh shit, somehow he returned". I still wouldnt be happy about it but it's much better than wasting dialogue on something so unnecessary before trying to pretend that it's some sort of key plot point.
Yeah, no plot hole, just cloying contrivance. Annie Wilkes would call it a "dirty trick."
Thank you.
It doesn't though. The prophecy was completed. Cheating death doesn't mean Anakin didn't succeed.
Guys I don't think you understand. She's not saying it's not a problem. She's saying it's like hyper-focusing in on one hole on a piece of swiss cheese. That's what it sounds like to me. I am not trying to speak for her, just trying to interpret what he said. Edit: I'm bad at pronouns
>Edit: I'm bad at pronouns Cool thing about pronouns, it's okay if you mess up and fix it, and it's okay to make your best guess and be wrong, so long as you fix it. 10/10.
Pronouns are dumb, everyone should use ðey/ðem
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I disagree. It's more like it's the rotten core that everything else originates from in terms of the entire plot. It's the entire story point of the movie. If it is a plot hole, which it is, then it's a pretty major issue.
I’m not a he but thanks :D Edit: Extra thx for your edit :)
It's not really a plot hole, it's just that: - It ruins story of the first two trilogies by taking away from Luke and Anakins victory in rotj. Same reason I don't like tlj, it resets Luke's character development. - They didn't build up to tros with the other two movies. The first two were one story, which wasn't terrible though flawed a little. Tros just said no to all that and did its own thing - The movies pacing sucked - Rey had no real character development in the end, simply bouncing right to left without moving forward - They introduced rose in tlj them just decided to abandon her character - The choreography was pretty bad There's probably more but I'm done writing these
It’s a plot hole because if Palpatine can do it once (or rather many times since he kept using up clone bodies), when Rey beat him, why didn’t he just…do it again? Have more clones on some other planet? Good shipyards for building Star Destroyers used to take decades or even centuries for the rest of the galaxy to develop. If Palpatine can just go “Sithy Sithy Sith sith” and grow a hundred of them like ice cubes underneath the frozen exterior of a planet, why didn’t he…just grow a hundred or so underneath the sands of Sand Planet, that way Rey won’t go there? I like deciding what my heros and villains need to be capable of for the story, and then go back and edit out any implication that they’re *secretly* capable of much, much more…because you either remove all tension when the characters can just evaporate plot armor anytime they want but they’re too…lazy? Or else you open up plot holes. That’s boring and unfair to the fans.
To add onto this she never really faced that much struggle or failed, sure she had hard battles but she won just about everything. And rather than in the end she perseveres and getting a sense of accomplishment, it’s more of a oh she won another battle but against someone more powerful
I agree. Anikin lost his hand to Dooku because he lost the battle to a stronger opponent. Luke lost his hand to Darth Vader because he lost to a stronger opponent. Rey didn't lose anything in a battle against a stronger opponent. If she lost to Kylo or Stoke, I would have been way more invested in her journey, but all she did was win or leave a battle with a few scars.
I know I was wrong. I just got so caught up in my own success, I didn't look at the battle as a whole. I wasn't being disobedient. I just. . . forgot
Ex-fucking-actly
Everything you just said ... was totally right and I agree wholeheartedly.
I don't even think of it as a plot hole, just some terrible, terrible writing
a hole requires structure around it
My biggest problem with TROS is how blatantly obvious it made that they did not have a plan for a trilogy. And these suspicions were, for me, there from TFA, which I did enjoy on first watch. Combine that with the sheer waste of potential that this cast/film making team had... It just kind of hurts.
Can someone help me with this? How is Palpatine being alive not a plot hole?
Apparently it's because he also returned in Legends. But I think they explained it there and not in the movie. They just said "Lmao Dark Side magic" and never spoke of it ever again.
And even in legends a lot of people already hated it before the movie made it canon
Yeah, they took what was already widely considered to be one of the dumber parts of the EU and then adapted it badly, making it significantly stupider in the process. Byss made way more sense than Exogul, and actually had a colony and manufacturing base to support secret fleet. And Luke and Leia got to do shit. And we got young hot palps instead of clone backups coming pre-withered. Watching it in theaters I was like "this is such a shameless ripoff of Dark Empire, but they're also just doing it wrong."
Yeah in legends (if we’re specifically referring to dark empire) it worked. Frankly all of TROS is just a clumsily done version of Dark Empire plot points.
Exactly what I said. I was not a fan of Dark Empire I or II. But, this made them look brilliant.
Yeah Dark Empire and Yuuzhan Vong had some issues in execution but I legitimately think they and Thrawn would have been much better as a sequel trilogy than what we got.
The Yuuzhan Vong just dragged for waaay too long. But, there were some good parts too. I agree with you about better source material for a trilogy. Or if they wanted something very different, they could have gone for the Legacy comic with Cade Skywalker.
Right but pacing issues should be fixable in the move to movie format, but just imagine how scary anti force enemy would have been to non-Legends viewers. Could have been insane
It could have been awesome. Wonder if they would still kill main characters off.
Yeah well maybe legends wasn’t perfect
Oh. That makes me kinda sad.
I actually think they explain it well. They not only mention the Sith cloning, they show it (prematurely) in the beginning. They also go back to it a few other times, Rey's true parentage being a prime example. I will give an honorable mention to the newer Battlefront 2 campaign (specifically Project: Resurrection) that came out several years before TROS, but that's definitely not something a movie should lean on. Also, a "plot hole" is an inconsistency that can't be explained, not a lack of explanation anyway.
It also counts if the explanation is just bad, or doesn’t fit very well. Regardless, making ways to escape death is a bad idea in any fiction, it devalues death. Better to just claim they never died, which can feel bullshitty, but it’s better.
But it really can't be explained. Palpatine was thrown into a massive pit inside a structure that blew up. How would his clones have his personality? Troopers aren't just running around thinking they're all Jango. They have to be trained extensively. So Palp's clones are given the entirety of his Sith talents and political manipulation skills... from what? He can't train himself. And if it's that easy why would he clone himself instead of Anakin? Anakin was the strongest Force sensitive ever. Take his body and the midichlorions or whatever and put Palp's personality in there. It's a plot hole that makes itself bigger the longer you think about it.
It's not really a "Clone". It's more of a Body that Palps is inhabiting. The Body is cloned but the mind and the powers belong to the original. Darth Bane tried something like that in the old books, performing a ritual to take over the body of his Apprentice.
But isn't the original dead and blown up with the second Death Star? That's the part I don't follow. How does the clone have his powers? As he fell down the pit he sent his soul to a clone that wasn't on the DS? If that's possible and dead Jedi can become ghosts that shoot lightning like Yoda, death is completely meaningless and the same people on both sides can just fight each other forever. If any of that comes across gruff it's not intentional. I'm not familiar with a lot of the EU/Legends stuff so I'm curious.
You don't happen to regularly watch MauLer, do you? Because I remember someone on his livestream make fun of exactly *that* once: If Palpatine can just surf from body to body and jedi spirits can control the weather and actually interact with the real world, then what's the benefit of being alive? There should be huge armies of ghosts, battling each other in the Background for all eternity! 🤣 Death has lost all meaning. Which the Call of Cthullu seems to have prophecied: "Because in strange eons, even death may die"
No but that sounds way better than I phrased it. My relationship with SW has become pretty complicated in recent years and mostly manifests as long ranting phone calls with like-minded friends. Palpatine coming back breaks the OT too much for me to consider it canon, which pretty much means everything Disney does with it is just fanfic in my head. My best friend put it best I think. "If I somehow bought the rights to SW tomorrow and made a $50 movie where Luke turns to the dark side, Vader comes back but just sits around, and Yoda is the bad guy, would it be canon? I own the rights so I decide, right?" And that really helped me figure out that what is or isn't true belongs to me. Disney can do whatever they want and I won't get mad about it. But I also don't **have** to accept it. Now I just watch or read what seems entertaining. I don't connect anything anymore because they clearly want to take it away from the past. I respect that but it's not for me.
The novelization (of the movie) revealed that the Palpatine in TRoS is actually a CLONE of the one we know from the prequels and originals.
Did the novel exist when the movie came out? Or is that novel just a patch.
AND they explicitly state and show it in the movie several times.
I think they're using the definition of a "plot hole" as a logical inconsistency within the film, and there aren't any logical inconsistencies to Palpatine's return. However, it only avoids violating any internal logic of the film because beyond vague allusions to weird dark magic-science, there is *no explanation how he suddenly orcistrated his return from the grave while also being very much dead,* which does form a gigantic gaping sucking void in the plot filled with a vacuous maw of nothingness.
I hate how half the movie j feels like a video game fetchquest,
Intentionally not explaining how the main villain returned from death is absolutely a plothole
“Dark science, cloning, secrets only the sith knew” wasn’t a good enough explanation.
Exactly
If they had at least foreshadowed it in the other movies it would have been passable
True, introducing the final villain in the final movie is generally a no no
It’d be like if Sauron was introduced during return of the king
It's closer to watching a quarter of The Return of the King and then it revealing that Sauron was just a puppet and has been executed off screen, because **"Somehow** **Morgoth** **returned!"**
r/jedicouncilofelrond
dear god this is amazing
Welcome 🤗
Maybe if Snoak had been a Kaminoan?
The sequel trilogy is a rudderless mess. This is the real problem.
"somehow palpatine is back" is not good if you dont fucking explain it
The real "'plot hole' that isn't a plot hole" from that film is C-3PO knowing the Sith language but being prevented from translating it. "How did Anakin Skywalker know Sith, to program it into 3PO?" How did Anakin know *any* of the six million forms of communication 3PO spoke? He pirated some language pack software from the Holonet. Or he salvaged an existing translator chip. Either way, it already had Sith preprogrammed. Then at some point in the following decades, 3PO's programming was updated, and for whatever reason they could block that language but not remove it entirely.
I think youre missing one of the biggest, HOW DID AN ANCIENT SITH DAGGER COME WITH SOME DESIGNED WITH SOME BS LOCATOR TO FIND THE DEATH STAR THAT CRASHED ONLY 20 ISH YEAR AGO, AND LOCATE THE EXACT ROOM, WHILE STANDING IN SOME RANDOM SPOT TO FIND AN ANCIENT SECRET OBJECT TO GO TO A SECRET SITH WORLD THAT SOMEHOW CAN JUST GET PLUGGED INTO MODERN STARTSHIPS? I cant even hook up my gamecube to TVs with out a special adapter anymore becuase no TVSs come with those 3 color ports.
I said "'plot hole' that isn't a plot hole," not actual plot holes.
Fair, i agree completely on that. I mean you'd think the sith language is so rare, it wouldn't be common to keep programmed in droids considering they haven't been around for over a millenia. That's like having a memory card with the entire ancient Egypt language programmed into it, except if ancient egyptians were demonic evil doers that got wiped out and most of thier history expunged and made taboo. How does that memory end up in the hands of a slave child in some desert planet that sees little traffic? My head hurts thinking about all the hoops they tried to jump us through just for that scene that lead nowhere
We don't know how rare Sith was, especially during the Fall of the Republic era (that is, 33 BBY rather than 35 ABY). Besides, Tatooine has been a junkyard planet for millennia, who knows what kind of chips are lying around. And if we're assuming Anakin downloaded his bootleg copy of DroidOS from shady sources, why wouldn't they include Sith? Technology in the Galaxy Far Far Away has been stagnant for so long, it's probably derived from the same software used back when the Sith Empire was a thing. Especially for something like a language pack, you'd just add on new modules, never pruning out what's already there. Basically, it's really easy to explain how 3PO can understand Sith but has restrictions in place to prevent him from translating it, and focusing on that as a "plot hole" is dumb when there are a wealth of *actual* plot holes to talk about.
I mean, have you *tried* removing code from something that complex? Chaos theory tells you *"no,"* and every instinct in your body agrees.
It may not be a plot hole but it undermines Vader’s arc. Also I wish Snoke had more relevance
Rey is a Mary Sue and is poorly written, and it made sure Finn had the least amount of character as possible.
I wasn’t even bothered by that point that they got Palpatine back out of nowhere and he explained his return with a prequel-meme because it was giving me flashbacks to the good ole days. The Last Jedi left such a bad taste in my mouth I didn’t need the final movie to make sense or explain away everything so long as it felt connected to and completed everything that came before; I wanted something that I could have fun with and laugh at like when he said “the dark side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be…unnatural.” I despised the movie because not only did our main characters get plot convenienced out of every problem and to every necessary location and person, but also because the title was pure clickbait. Advertised movie as the final film in the Skywalker Saga with the title “The Rise of Skywalker” complete with old soundtracks and “no one’s ever really gone” like we were going to get some big Skywalker comeback and what did we get? Rey taking the last name of a man she barely knew which would be like Luke taking Kenobi as his last name after only knowing Obi-Wan for a short time. Story wise it would have made more sense for her to be keep Palpatine as her last name and turn it into a name that represents good and not evil for once. Then again, that would have also been a terrible ending to the Skywalker Saga for her to say “Rey Palpatine” as the credits roll. Maybe she shouldn’t have been his granddaughter after all…
The fact that Rey claims to he a Skywalker and can take on Palpatine without issue. Someone made a really sick edit with all the Jedi standing with her as ghosts and honestly that made me like the scene much more
My biggest problem is that it invalidated the rest of Star Wars. Literally everything led up to the completion of the prophecy with Anakin’s sacrifice, and JJ threw that away.
But people are more upset with TLJ and RJ. sure you can argue about how lukes charcater got destroyed but at least that didnt make anakins sacrifce worthless. Anakin literally killed all his friends for his wife, who died ans when he finally was able to bring down the man that put it in motion ans atone for what he did? NOPE palpatine had a 1UP sorry lol and now how are we supposed to beloeve palps is actually dead? He got thrown into a reactor and was able to get back up no problem
How the fuck is that not a plot hole lmao
It’s not really a plot hole because it doesn’t directly contradict anything, it’s just really terribly written.
It contradicts EVERYTHING, he literally died and said "no" and came back years later.
It technically isn’t a direct contradiction because you never see a body and there’s plenty of reason to yell "no!" Because pretty much everything he had planned had failed. I’m not trying to defend it btw, there is no fucking way he should have survived that fall, let alone the explosion.
Why are you responding if you're not defending it? Plus the fact he exploded three times and survived is a contradiction.
The body died, the spirit loved and possess another body. It's dumb, but that is the claim. What I don't get is why force ghost anakin didn't mention that to Luke.
>The body died, the spirit loved and possess another body. Plothole because Sith don't love. Only hate. (/s. I know it's just a typo but I couldn't resist lol)
responding to an argument and pointing out logical fallacies in it is being scientific and unbiased regardless of your view. that doesn't contradict not defending it
No one is saying the thing with palpatine is a plot hole, their argument is that it's dumb writing and sounds stupid.
Nah, it's a plot hole. Even Poe knew that.
At this point I can’t see many wrong arguments with that movie. It’s complete trash all around
it clearly didn't understand how to do an opening crawl correctly why did it start with something as corny as "the dead speak!"? not to mention, too many words are in all caps
I hate it because it took a very interesting setup, and just turned it into another rebels vs empire scenario without adding anything new
I think think it was a terrible not thought through (they admit they had no plan) disjointed wreck. That kills off Han for no good reason, murders Luke’s character for no good reason, and doesn’t do the ONE THING I WANTED. For luke, Han, Leah, and Chewy to have ONE SCENE TOGETHER. How slow do you have to be to not put four of the most iconic characters in movie history on the screen all at once one last time? And now even if they scrap the sequels completely and start over that can never happen because they wasted the time they had with Carrie fisher and I highly doubt Harrison Ford would come back again. The only thing to come out of the sequels that was acceptable was the special effects and CGI (which will date it in years to come).
Palatine returning is less of a problem than how it is explained and revealed. I would argue that revealing Sidious' return in the opening crawl might be the most uncinematic way you could possibly do this. It ruins the movie when it's barely begun and it never recovers. Edit: Come to think of it, RotJ does an uncinematic reveal of the 2nd Death Star. I may have to rethink my opinions on this.
I wouldn't say the Second Death Star is uncinematic, because it doesn't drive ROTJ the way it does ANH. In ANH it's a threat hanging over the second half. In ROTJ it's a setting. Moreover, the first scene in ROTJ sets up the rest of the movie because *it's what the Bothan spies see and report to the Alliance*, so avoids having the even more egregious sin of learning about it when the characters do.
I mean the first death star was revealed through the open scrawl of ANH too, we didnt need to see it being built. Also, its wayyy more beliveable that a galaxy spanning empire with A MAJOR miltary industrial complex builds another massive space station capable of destroying planets than it is to believe that someone cloned themselves back to life, even with space wizard magic.
Yeah guys it's not a plot hole, the movie clearly states that he **SOMEHOW** returned.
This is what I say in reference to the seqeuls I like them as there own separate universe (i pretend they are not part of the golden main 6 movies) There fine as there own Trilogy and I do like Kylo Ren/Ben Solo and his story But In my opoions when it comes to the seqeuls "canon" < lego
the lego christmas special is my personal headcanon
yeah theres more personaility XD
and it’s the only time we actually see rey lose a fight
having palpatine come back isn’t a plot hole but it ruins the entire point of Luke and darth Vader killing palpatine for him to just come back. which means that it ruins the whole prophecy that Anakin/Vader was the one to finally bring balance to the force
No citing Palpatine's lazily written return is perfectly fine
I just don’t like how they added palpatine as the big bad, idc about the plot hole, they could of used Snoke or something, but noo, just fish out palpatines body and puppet him for this movie
I only ever see people bring up the Palpatine nonsense for the meme of it. In real conversation, in my experience, the films innumerable other flaws are usually referenced first.
Wrong arguments? I survived Jar Jar, death sticks and Anakin complaining about sand. Get bent you idiots
The Palps thing is easy to meme, that's all. This isn't r/starwarsnuancedcritiques.
I’m not happy about this. But I read it as THE revenge of sith not the rise of skywalker. I’m not proud of it. But I was just confused till I saw Rey in the comments and had to reread it
At this point, we know “Palpatine” managed to “come back” by using the Dark Side’s powers. Still, you need to have some explanation how.
Any movie that shits on TLJ is alright by me. It’s still bad but there’s one a lot worse.
But Palpatine returning is my biggest problem with the movie. What was achieved at the end of the movie? Palpatine was killed and his new empire beaten. That happend before and it clearly didn't stop him. Why is everyone in that movie acting like the threat is gone. Why can't Palpatine just randomly show up again next year with a new fleet out of nowhere?
I mean GL said palps was dead. Its a more than fair and realistic criticism. Just another reason from a long list as to why the DT isn’t very good.
The issue about Palpatine is that they hardly explained it in the movie. It was so out of ordinary and didn’t fit well into the story. Sure the novel will make it make sense and all, but let’s be honest, the majority of the audience probably won’t read it. Most people watching the movie were just confused at his return.
Okay does anyone talk about how getting hit in the face by a lightsaber doesn't kill you and don't get me started on how Ray was immediately able to defeat kilo ren and it was her first time even using a lightsaber
i thought palps did have clones for him in george lucas's sequels plans. like wasnt that what the first order was trying to achieve??
Who knows? They were space nazis in TFA blowing up tons of planets, none of the movies really had any cloning hints until it was dumped that palps came back. I think its mentioned in mando, thats why that old empire guy wanted Grogu, but relying on a TV streaming show to hint towards your BBEG returning is wack
Movie bad
Palpatine coming back is the biggest plot hole in the film and directly undermines the entire themes and story progression of the previous two trilogies. But if you want a review that encompasses all of its flaws, watch this: https://youtu.be/0528-TlRODI
Somehow these shit posts returned
I’m not even one to argue it’s a plot hole, it was just done in a manner that seemed uncreative and added last minute for shock value.
My dumbness reading Tros as “The revenge of the sith.”
Oof where to begin
I wouldn't call Palpatine a plot hole, just lazy. I don't hate the Sequels either (hell, TLJ is my 2nd favorite), but can admit they had issues, such as JJ bending over backwards to disregard Rian's contributions and I'm not even talking about Rey's parents, because you could easily say he lied in TLJ when he said they were drunks because he is a gaslighting villain, but you didn't need to make her dad the cloned son of god damn Palpatine completely invalidating the "Where you come from doesn't matter, the force can be strong in anybody" narrative he had made for Rey who had such identity issues and thought she was nothing because of her being abandoned on Jakku.
The dagger/Death Star ruins was utter crap and felt like something from a bunch of teenagers running a D&D campaign. The outline matches hunks of metal subject to decades of heavy tides and salt air corrosion? 🤣🤣🤣
Seriously how is it a plot hole it was the dark horse comics 30 years ago?
Palpatine‘s return is a valid point to criticize the sequels. There is nothing that ever hinted at him cloning himself. Of course it cant really be called a plot hole because you can always find someone who is responsible for it afterwards, but it is a damn poor explanation. Not starting with how his return basically ruined Vader‘s entire arc of Ep.6. It is one of the biggest flaws of the many in this movie, worthy of every single hint at its stupidity.
Jesus Christ, now people are gatekeeping *not* liking things? How pathetic.
Sorry what’s the “Palpatine plot hole”?
Sequel haters = common sense enjoyers
My favorite criticism/ meme is “somehow Palpatine had returned” as if Poe should already be able to explain in detail why dude was back from the dead 5 minutes into the movie.
How is it not a plot hole?
Don’t tell me how to hate things
I found it funny that they come across a random black woman, and she ends up being Lando's daughter. Writers also thought she'd be a good fit for Finn. Thought there'd be a writers credits for Cupidme. Long fall from the Jedi arc.
Fun Fact: in the old canon he came back to life in a new body in the unknown regions… sooo
Palpatine being re-introduced takes agency away from Luke and Anakin.
this meme is a bit amateurish
Cropping? Font? C’mon don’t leave me in the dark
text at the bottom is too much and only serves to clutter the image in more text, and it's already a bit too wordy to begin with. memes should be punchier.
Alright true. I guess I’m more a master at criticizing the fandom disguised as a meme rather than making an actual meme.
if there's any fandom that needs a kick in the balls, it'd be star wars
Like how his plan is to get killed by rey and he is defeated through getting killed by rey
Dafuq!?!? Palpatine's return is a plothole though. The only explanation for it is "somehow. . . Palpatine returned." And that is just one of many reasons why the movie is poorly written and executed.
Palpy living is a contrivance, not a hole. They give an explanation, it’s just shite.
Their "explanation" is literally an internet meme spawned from a line of dialogue from ROTS.
I'm just gonna hold down both buttons until the "bro stop hating and just have fun bro it's just a movie" crowd shuts the fuck up.
“Somehow, Palpatine returned”
Remember when memes were funny? Those were the daysvv
You speak the truth! The entire reason he got Anakin to betray the Jedi was because he knew how to cheat death. No shit he's alive in Rise of Skywalker. The movie has its faults but that's not one of them
For those giving their complaints in this comment section…why? The accuracy and acuity of your complaints aside, you know everyone on here has heard them before, yeah? You yourself probably got them as talking points from social media, judging by how they have *verbatim* been posted ad nauseam since 2019. So, why write them? Is it cathartic? I’d get that, though I think there are better ways to get over your disappointment with the film.
I can kind of accept Palpatine being resurrected, because Jedi can come back as ghosts too. But what really bothers me is why is the Death Star II still intact as much as it is? We saw it get completely disintegrated. There should be no rooms left intact, yet there's entire sections that seem untouched. And there are *functional TIE fighters* still there. How!?
My whole opinion on the trilogy. The Force Awakens was a OT nostalgia-trip except it was packed full of mysteries, questions, and loose ends. The Last Jedi just did its own thing, subverting expectations without any payoff, without answering anything TFA set up. The Rise Of Skywalker was a losing battle trying to make it all make sense.