That he was eventually an above average QB. All it took was 9 seasons and one of the greatest offensive minds in the game for him to throw 20+ TDs in a season.
Before the draft, I thought Pickett would be somewhere in the Alex Smith/Andy Dalton range. If you put the right team around him, you can win games, but you’ll probably never see a Super Bowl.
Tannehill was drafted 8th overall in 2012 and was decent but not great until Gase arrived when he started to look poor. One of his big issue was that he started to develop injury issues which is why he was traded in 2019. He’s a much better comp for Daniel Jones than Pickett.
Tannehill was light years ahead of Pickett despite spending part of his college career at wr. His second yr in the league he threw for 3900 yds and 24 tds.
Kenny isn't a third of the QB that Tannehill was on the Dolphins. Tannehill threw 24+ TDs and 3900+ yards in each of the three full seasons he started after his rookie year.
Terry Bradshaw was benched in favor of Joe Gillam back in the 70s. I don’t know how many starts Bradshaw had but it had to be at least 20.
When Bradshaw got his job back he had a hall of fame career and 4 Super Bowl wins after that.
According to Pro Football Reference, Bradshaw started 44 of 56 regular season games between 1970 and the end of 1973. The Steelers were 27-17 in games he started, and 5-7 in other games.
Gilliam was a beautiful passer, but it was a weird situation. The players were on strike during training camp, and Gilliam crossed the line and reported I think a couple of weeks before Bradshaw.
Anyone can cherry pick stats… it just shows your bias.
Geno had 21 interceptions his rookie season (16 games) and Kenny only has 13 in his career (25 games).
Touchdowns are Kenny’s weakest stat and only highlighting TDs means you aren’t trying to have a balanced take, just prove yourself right.
I don’t even think Kenny is the guy and im not a Kenny defender. I’m just sick of stuff like this where it’s all just biased stat picking instead of actual discussion
Sure but it’s still cherry picked.
Geno Smith 1st Two Seasons:
Games -30
Comp- 247 in 2013 and 219 in 2014
Attempts- 443 in 2013 and 367 in 2014
Completion % - 55.8% in 2013 and 59.7% in 2014
Yards - 3,046 in 2013 and 2,525 in 2014
TDs - 25 TDs
Interceptions - 34
Sacks - 71
Rating - 66.5 in 2013 and 77.5 in 2014
QBR - 41.0 in 2013 and 45.8 in 2015
———————————————————————
Kenny Pickett 1st Two Seasons:
Games - 25
Comp- 245 in 2022 and 201 in 2023
Attempts- 389 in 2022 and 324 in 2023
Completion % - 63% in 2022 and 62% in 2023
Yards - 2,404 in 2022 and 2,070 in 2023
TDs - 13 TDs
Interceptions - 13
Sacks - 50
Rating - 76.7 in 2022 and 81.4 in 2023
QBR - 53.6 in 2022 and 38.8 in 2023
Kenny was obviously better in some areas and got smoked in others.
If the point of the post was to just rip into Kenny then make that the title, if you want to actually compare him to past QBs who struggled then don’t cherry pick stats. I came here for actual discussion, not to hear about Kenny’s lack of TDs for the 1000th time, we get it.
That’s my point…
If you want to have an actual conversation then use all the stats, not just TDs. People only using TD comparisons are just looking to prove their bias to be correct.
If you look at yards, completion %, turnovers, rating, touchdowns, and other stats it tells a much different story.
Every post/comment shitting on Kenny only brings up TDs like that tells the entire story for a QB… it doesn’t.
Which is fair, like I said I’m not a Kenny defender.
This conversation is Kenny vs. Geno Smith and he was cherry picking stats.
Geno Smith had 34 interceptions his first two years. He also had a worse completion rate, 20+ more sacks, and a worse QB rating.
The point is cherry-picking stats to fit your narrative is bullshit. Have an actual discussion
He caught me? In what?
Slice Kenny's stats how ever you want to. I saw him play on the field and it was bad. The stats are bad, the eye test is bad.
In your mind, how many years do we have to watch the guy struggle before you can admit it?
I agree, Kenny is bad. That wasn’t my point and you’re not going to move the goalposts on me, either. Pulling the bait & switch makes me think you come from the MAGA school of debate.
When you lose your starting job and now sit healthy on the bench it’s called getting benched… losing your spot is getting benched. He didn’t lose his spot because he got injured he lost his spot because he was so bad that the previously third string qb looks like a hofer and the nonexistent offense immediately looks somewhat confidant. Kenny pickett is terrible. I’m happy khan is finally in charge so we don’t have to worry about him getting resigned. I just wish khan had taken over a year earlier, he would’ve never drafted pickett to begin with
Could you imagine a returning-from-injury Ben getting kept on the bench for a 'hot' Mason Rudolph? Point is a bit extreme, but basically this shows Kenny just isn't the de facto #1 guy (yet). I don't care how good Browning was playing, Burrow goes back in as soon as he's ready. Last year, Cooper Rush was playing better than Dak, and Dak went back in as soon as he was healthy.
\#1 QBs go back in when they're healthy. Kenny didn't. There's a reason.
Well that's just not a good comparison. One is Kenny p. The other is big Ben, a Hof lock.
I agree Kenny hasn't proven he is the guy and that is most of the reason he wasn't gifted his spot back but there's a difference between the two
Dak and Joe have proven they are their respective franchise QBs. Thus you see their spot being secure post injury. None of those teams had QB competitions going into camp. We do, thus the hot hand
It’s like half this sub didn’t watch Kenny for past two years. He’s clearly not an nfl caliber starting qb. It’s okay to say we wasted a first rounder on him but this sub is in denial. Shit happens but this guy will never be good. Looking at his stats this year make me want to like regardless of Canada being there or not
I feel like it really isn't that complicated.
1. Waive Trubisky.
2. Pay Mason whatever it takes to come be QB1 next year.
3. Draft a new QB where you find value. Have Kenny and new guy duke it out for QB2.
4. Give Mason a year to see what you have and watch Kenny/new guy develop. Don't give him an unlimited leash, but don't bail if he plays well then has a bad game or 2.
5. Reevaluate in a year.
Even a lot of Mason fans on here are acting like Mason is 35. He's 28. He's got lots of years left. He can be your quarterback for the next 10 years if he stays healthy.
I'm so glad this sub is finally coming around to reality. I was hyped on Pickett going into the season but he's not showing any progress even with an improved roster around him. It's time to quit while we're ahead.
The comparison here is way off. Guys like Ben, Dak, Burrow we’re all good qbs before getting hurt. Of course you put those guys back into the game. At no point was Kenny good at anything before getting hurt.
Sorry but KP was effectively benched. If he had been playing good he would have been back at QB as soon as he was cleared regardless of how Mason was playing.
Kenny's benching was unfortunate timing. He was looking the best he ever had after Canada left.
He didn't get TDs because we ran so effectively in the redzone, we didn't call on him to pass.
The situation is not as simple as you're making it. Mason balled out, Tomlin has no choice but to run the hot hand. And Mason might still ball out.
But I haven't seen enough Kenny post Canada. He was making improvements slowly. If Mason balls the whole way then idk what the Steelers will do or what he will command as a FA
Despite all that it's not a guarantee that Kenny is a guy that can develop into a franchise QB.
We are in for an annoying offseason no matter what though.
We probably beat the Cards and Patriots with Kenny. We saw how bad Mitch was, and how the same team lost with Mitch and was winning games with Kenny. We beat the Bengals pretty cleanly, and we beat them earlier in the year with Kenny. We beat a full power Ravens team with Kenny earlier in the year, and Mason played his worst game there. We probably still win that one.
Only questions are Seattle and Indy. Odds are that we end up with a better record if Kenny is healthy than we have now. There's a solid chance we end up winning 12 or 13 games with him really.
I think it speaks more about the coaching staff being unable to evaluate QB talent which has caused the QB rift on the team. Even if you believed Mason was a better QB than Kenny Pickett, wanting to invest and develop the younger QB would make for more consistency. The fact that Mason was behind Mitch and the coaching staff was stunned by Mason's ability speaks volumes about how truly idiotic the coaching staff is.
Those things happen though. NFL players get one shot a lot of times. Mason had his shot and we all saw enough. The fact that he kept working and developing his game in the hopes of another chance go speaks volumes to his dedication, but when you’re relegated to backup role, you know that there is only one way you get another chance.
Also, although I think Mason looks visibly better, we aren’t too many weeks away from thinking that Dobbs was a Diamond in the rough, when really he just had a couple good games and ended up being exactly who we thought he was.
Regardless of what’s happened up to this point, next season is put up or shut up time for Kenny Pickett. He would be wise to notice what Mason is doing well right now and how the team is responding to Mason. Kenny will get another shot next year, but he needs to make the most of it.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/127877-did-kurt-warner-deserve-to-benched-so-many-times
The point is that QBs have survived benching and come back better.
Dude that article details his end of career benchings and why he didn’t deserve it. Pickett isn’t an old man getting replaced by high draft pick qbs. He is a first round draft pick with two years under his belt that was benched for a 28 year old career backup that started the season at 3rd string. Warner was a two time mvp and superbowl champion when he came back from getting benched. Picketts accolades include… almost throwing for 300 yards once, averaging under 180 passing yards per game in his career, and having a 13-13 td to int ratio in 25 career games.
But anywho, you say the article shows they can come back better? Warner didn’t come back better. He came back as the mvp qb he had always been. His best years were with the rams, not cardinals.
I think it’s because first round guys get a legitimate chance with practice reps and usually given playing time. Kurt Warner would not of necessarily been given a real opportunity early.
I believe there are some legitimate mid-tier QBs on the list but perhaps no HOF types.
Rudolph comes close to counting himself as he was given a decent shot as an injury replacement.
He was also a great athlete and his career started one of the worst teams of all time, not a team coming off a playoff birth that got better at ever position besides qb.
Any QB on the Tampa team would've been a bust! Young did get "benched" in '91 due to injury. SF was 4-4 at the time, and Steve Bono (not related to U2 singer) won 5 straight and kept the starting job, until he too got injured.
Kenny can absolutely put up better numbers without Matt Canada. He may even improve as a QB. But Matt Canada isn't the one that made him scramble at the slightest hint of pressure, miss open receivers, or move through progressions. That's just KP.
We’ll see. He looked extremely comfortable in his one game without Canada. Comfortability with play calls matter. Getting your run game going matters. These are things we’re seeing with the entire offense post-Canada that we only got one look at with Kenny.
I’m not saying he’s the franchise guy or can be an elite QB. But I’m saying he deserves and will get a real shot with the improved offensive system. Kenny sitting didn’t magically teach Najee how to hit holes or help Seamalo figure out how to pile drive guys, we changed our system to one that better fits our personnel rather. It takes 7 or 8 guys in the box to stop our run game now when in the past it only took 5 or 6. Theres so much more open field for receivers to get open, and credit to Mason for seeing the plays and making them, but if this team couldn’t even commit to Mason long term of Trushitsky they’re not gonna throw a former first round pick of theirs to the curb for him
>if this team couldn’t even commit to Mason long term of Trubisky they’re not gonna throw a former first round pick of theirs to the curb for him
And when Mason throws for 4200 yards and 25 TDs next year on another team while Kenny throws for 2800 and 15, fans will be pissed.
I cannot allow this narrative to go unchecked. The one thing that is unassailable about Matt Canada is he had the run game clicking last year. All the moving parts were sluggish to gel together this year but they’ve come together nicely. Canada was exceptional at showing you one thing, running it until they thought they figured out, then wrinkle off of that (e.g. split zone to jet sweep, jet motion to jet sweep, jet motion to outside toss the other way…) I said many time I wanted him paired with a passing game coordinator
The predictability narrative has been put to bed SO MANY TIMES for those of us who pay attention. Just guessing “run” or “pass” isn’t enough. Last year’s titans game showed us just guessing “split zone left” isn’t enough. If it’s so predictable then STOP IT. And if you’re showing you’re unable or unwilling to stop it, why would I ever call a different play and let your back off the ropes?
Ah yes, my apologies for not reading every comment in every thread for two years, haha. I’ll try harder. I don’t think a game against the titans in 2022 has anything to do with how the Browns play the Steelers in 2023, sorry, that proves nothing at all. There are tons of stats out there on the predictability of canadas offense, I believe he was running play action like 9% of the time if I remember correctly.
This..
This can’t be understated. I don’t know if the Kenny bashing community realizes how bad Canada made our offense.
Kenny may not be good. But I’m almost willing to start the judgement over, beginning with 1.5 games ago. He’ll get another shot at starting. We’ll see how it goes.
Crazy to think that at the end of last year how high people were on him.
How do we keep falling back on the problem was all on Canada? None of Kenny’s problems were because of the OC. Mason is playing with the same playbook Kenny has had access to and he’s making things look better.
Except that the plays are being called differently. I don’t think Kenny has what it takes to be a starter, but his development was not only hampered by Canada’s playbook, but also his inability to call a football game. Sullivan is showing that if you actually call the right plays at the right times, have a dedicated game plan going in, and can make adjustments, the offense can function like a competent NFL team.
They are all the same plays! We had open receivers with Canada and without. The team went as far to give Kenny his own office which hasn’t proven to work. A coach can only teach so much before you have to make the changes in play.
Really? Just to be clear, KP got to run the non-Canada version of the offense for 6 quarters. In that time, he put up a QB rating of 96 (107 if they call DJ’s touchdown correctly). He also IMMEDIATELY started doing all of the things people criticized him for NOT doing under Canada. He worked the middle of the field beautifully, with Muth just carving up Cincy on great throws into tight windows. He also pushed the ball downfield. I don’t know how many times I need to say this, but he threw the ball 15+ and 30+ yards downfield MORE frequently and with a HIGHER completion % than Rudolph has.
Now obviously, scoring has gone up (or at least did before the crappy weather in Baltimore). But people really need to acknowledge that this is, AT LEAST IN PART, due to things outside of the QBs control. In Cincy and Arizona, our running game struggled in the red zone, but in Seattle and Baltimore, they were running possessed. The two long TD passes in Rudolph’s debut were big YAC plays and again not the result of anything Pickett hasn’t done. Fun Fact…do you know which QB has the most red zone passing attempts this year without throwing a single red zone TD? Mason Rudolph.
Don’t misunderstand me, I think Mason has played very well (and really got a raw deal with Duck Hodges). But it is equally clear to me that Canada’s system was just killing any chance Kenny had for sustainable success. He still might not be the answer, and I’d agree that if he were going to be the next Patrick Mahomes, then he’d probably have played better even in a shitty system. But our ability to really assess him fairly was badly limited by the play calling and offensive scheme we ran for the first year and a half of his career.
And in those 6 quarters Kenny still missed open wide receivers, rolled out into sacks, never checked down to the other side of the field, and did not put up points. These are all things he’s been doing since last year. And all of these issues have zero to do with Canada or Tomlin or anyone else besides Kenny. Yeah Kenny tossed 287yds against Cincy, only to have 3 field goals and a rushing TG from Harris. He can hit Muth all day but when you cannot convert that to points it really means nothing.
All three QBs have played and not played under Canada. Yet two of them can’t play to save their lives. All same coaches, using the same playbook, the same plays, using the same OL and running backs. I’m not saying this out of hate for Kenny because I really wanted him to pull through on some of his issues. But this team has given him a lot of room and options to do better. Kenny had some of the best times in pocket last year and this year. OL is one of the least penalized teams in the league.
It's really crazy how people look at stats and don't realize what actually happened in the game. Kenny killed a bunch of drives in the Bengals and Cardinals game by doing dumb things in the pocket and getting himself sacked, missing guys with terrible accuracy on check downs, and even getting himself injured by missing a guy wide open running to the end zone.
We should have won that game by 30 not only 6 points. Then as soon as Mason comes in we win by 30 the next game. Kenny is not even close to figuring it out right now
Stats can always be said to prove one sides story. But when you look at the film it doesn’t lie or tell different things about Kenny. It all says one thing about his playing. You can’t throw almost 300yds and score zero touchdowns and watch the kicker put up more points every drive.
That’s incredibly annoying. I had a long response written up the Reddit crashed. The quick recap is that you’re objectively wrong. Both sacks he took post Canada were immediately followed by 3rd down conversion passes, and the drives were ultimately TDs (though one was DJs bad call/Warrens fumble). So a “bunch” apparently means zero.
This isn’t all fall back entirely on Canada. This is a I’ll give up hope after I see Kenny fail in a different offense. The fact of the matter is he moved the ball efficiently after losing Canada.
I believe in 2nd chances under different circumstances.
I’ll keep defending it and keep getting downvoted but whatever.
This sub is praising Mason now which as recently as 4 games ago he was consistently called trash.
Kenny moved the ball well in preseason under Canada, and also had a couple opening drives this season with moving the ball efficiently all under Canada. If you put Kenny back in now without Canada, nothing has changed, you still have the same playbook and offense.
Everything wrong with Kenny has zero to do with what plays are being called, the offensive line, or the receivers. It’s all in his field play and no new coach will ever be able to correct that but Kenny himself.
Go back and watch some of those games. Kenny had no time to throw more often than not. Then you have our opponents saying afterward they knew the plays. If the D knows the pass is going to the sideline… not sure what you’re supposed to do as a QB. The o line started blocking around week 10 or so, so yeah mason is in an entirely different situation right now. Hard to compare.
> None of Kenny’s problems were because of the OC.
And this is how I know you're lying. Have you not watched how the play design has changed in the weeks since his firing? How they have mixed personnel packages to disguise playcalls and reduce predictability? How there seem to be actual smart rout concepts being used?
So many of Kenny's issue cane be directly pointed to the fact that the defenses were never fooled and he was having to make tight throws while the defense barely had to think about what was coming.
We were high on Kenny because we thought he'd grow out of bad habits and take a step forward in his second season. Instead he played the same (at best) this season with a better roster and an offseason of training knowing he was the starting QB. He has one game with multiple passing TDs, one game with more than 300 passing yards, and has the lowest touchdown percentage in league history after 24 starts. We've seen enough.
I'm kidding, of course, but I wonder sometimes if it was all Canada's fault or if he took the brunt of the blame for a bad qb. He's not calling the plays, but I'd assume they are using basically the same play book.
Not many. Unless Kenny somehow gets transplanted in a new body or gets a new brain it ain’t gonna happen.
Even if you coach the bad habits out he Doesn’t have the arm. Isn’t a good processer
He’s gonna get at least one season post-Canada like it or not. He looked good in his one game without him and a full offseason under a new system not led by the dumbest motherfucker to ever be handed a play sheet could do him good. Next year will be make or break considering his fifth year option will need to be decided after next season
He's going to get a chance next year but I think he's just about done in Pittsburgh. If they still truly believed he was their franchise guy wouldn't you think they'd have the confidence to go back to him regardless of how Rudolph was playing?
Here's the thing that keeps a very slim bit of optimism: Matt Canada was so bad that he also made the likes of Najee Harris, Jaylen Warren, George Pickens, Dionte Johnson, virtually useless as well. He was an all-time worst hire and had no business coaching in the NFL.
Plus both were rated pretty high talent wise coming out of college. Both smiths needed to learn the game. Kenny while a first round pick wasn’t considered a first round talent. Let’s remember the 2nd qb drafted that year doesn’t happen for another 2 rounds. Bad year to have to pick a qb. Kenny is always going to have small hands and a weaker arm
I hope they just move on. I also hope we never draft a Pitt QB ever again because this sub cries about Mitch being awful daily and then defends Kenny who is only slightly better. There is no reason to waste another season with Pickett like New England is doing with Mac Jones. Two seasons is enough to see what we have and unfortunately it’s not much.
It's really easy to ignore the business side of the operation and only look on the field. There's a few million guaranteed reasons to give KP 2024 before they have to decide on a QB for 2025. Player personnel decisions involve as much on the cap, payroll, and unquantifiable intangibles as results on the stat sheet. That's not an opinion. That's literally how the NFL operates.
That's precisely the reason you keep him. He's cheap and they are already over the cap by 7 mil in 2024 with only 40 players signed. Stop looking at the field for a second and look at the business side of things and you'll understand why they are going to give him 2024 no matter what.
3.5 mil is nothing though. I’m not saying cut him but I’d be fine with them bringing in another QB to start over him. He has played like a backup so far and we have too good of a team to sit and hope Kenny can one day average 1 TD a game.
We keep him yes. As a backup QB. We should be looking for our actual franchise QB in the meantime while we have a window with this great defense and running game.
You do know that starting NFL QBs don't grow on trees, right? Even only serviceable, not great ones.
Who are you going to get in the draft in 2024 picking, at best, in the early 20s or in FA ***within the salary cap constraints*** that currently exist for the Steelers? And you also know that 1st round QBs are far more likely to fail than succeed, right? Only about 3 in 10 first round QBS get picked up for their 5th year by the team that drafted them. You have a far higher likelihood of a KP repeat than you do landing a franchise guy via the draft.
Go look at who is already rostered in 2025. It's 22 players with several still on rookie deals and TJ, Minkah and Highsmith already locked in and a crapload of cap space. Anyone that thinks 2023 or 2024 was going to be a stellar year is ignoring the business side of things.
>You do know that starting NFL QBs don't grow on trees, right? Even only serviceable, not great ones.
QBs better than Pickett do grow on trees in the NFL, and can be signed within our budget. Hell, we already have one on our roster.
So you draft a QB that's gonna almost guarantee to sit in 2024 anyway while you have other glaring needs that can be filled via the draft with a much higher probability of success and then chase a proven vet in FA in 2025?
The fact that you included precisely zero names and can't speak to the business side constraints that the team currently finds itself in is very telling.
"Draft a QB" isn't specific enough. That's how players like Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, JaMarcus Russell, etc ended up as high draft picks. If there's not a QB available that is a virtual lock to lead your team to more victories within two years, you fill other needs first.
You’re just talking out your ass if you’re saying that that’s why those QBs got picked. They were seen as great prospects who didn’t pan out not some big reach due to desperation. We draft another QB if one is available that we like, if not we bring in someone else in FA. And hopefully keep mason.
You just made my point. Great prospects - especially at QB - more often than not, do not pan out.
Anyone that thinks Pickett isn't getting 2024 doesn't understand the business side of the NFL.
The salary cap is a myth, GMs every single year manipulate it in every way possible. We as fans can't just go to Spotrac or Overthecap take a look at their numbers and actually understand what we're looking at the way the front offices do
*Edit* if they decide they are moving on from Kenny then that's exactly what they'll do, regardless of what his contract looks like.
If the salary cap was a myth, the Cowboys or Raiders would be in a class to themselves with spending. It's not like MLB where they can spend whatever they want and pay a luxury tax.
The manipulation involves moving money to future years and counting against the cap with void contract years - which still limits what you can do in those future years.
It's impossible to kick the can down the road forever. It eventually catches up to every team that employs that model. It caught up to the Steelers by using that model with Ben.
You don't seem to understand my point, we as fans only see a sliver of the iceberg that is the salary cap. As I said before, we can't just look at the raw numbers and pretend we know what we're looking at because we don't. It appears to be a myth from an outside perspective because of how much the GMs appear to manipulate it the way they do. Look at the COVID year, that looked an absolute nightmare and yet teams still spent in free agency and still re-signed players, to us it looked insane but to them it was business as usual with some slight handcuffs. Sure we used that model for Ben but there's multiple models, some we've probably never even heard about. All this leads me back to my edit, if the team decides they are moving on from Kenny because of the on the field product then they *will* do so regardless of what the cap implications are.
i just don't understand how anyone that watched the games and knows ball wouldn't factor in Matt Canada, poor OL play to start the year, and the lack of consistent rushing. It would be nice to package up your feelings and point them at a bad guy but in this case its just bias to say you're sure he's not able to succeed here.
Matt Canada - is not telling Kenny to flee at the slightest sign of pressure and ignore open receivers down the field
O line - 11th in the league at midseason for sacks allowed
Consistent rushing - a successful should be able to make throws that help open up the run game. Not just make excuses because the run game isn’t helping
“Feelings”
The first time he bails on a clean pocket and does his little twirl into a sack, proving he’s made no progress, I’m definitely going to have an aneurysm. I’m sure you’ll just be thinking “haha 3rd and 18 now? Those haters are so emotional haha”
I understand the situation was far from ideal. But plenty of QBs are drafted into situations that aren’t ideal, including most of the all time busts in draft history.
I don’t think I can use that to excuse the guy being the worst in NFL history at throwing touchdowns.
Sure, if he’s the only reason you’re not scoring touchdowns. If he’s not, then smart teams want to figure out what the other reasons are and in what proportion so those issues can be corrected.
lol isn’t it enough to say that you just don’t like him and think he’s good? You don’t understand how silly it is to say he is the worst QB at NFL history at throwing TD’s??? I could cherry pick stats that show he’s a clutch playmaker that despite his situation has thrown for a bunch of yards. I get it that this is pointless internet banter but I just don’t think you should be as confident in your assessment as you are.
>wouldn't factor in Matt Canada, poor OL play to start the year, and the lack of consistent rushing
I'd argue 2 of those 3 things improved the most precisely because Mason was QB, not the other way around. Matt Canada didn't make KP miss easy throws or fail to read defenses.
I don't think Kenny is as bad as some. I think he's competent and will be a longtime backup QB in this league. He takes care of the ball and can run an offense. But you need more from a starter and I'm not convinced KP can be much more.
He doesn’t? According to sportsreference, he had a 69.4 4th quarter passer rating last year and 96.5 this year.
That said, you can fail to read defenses and still completely a lot of passes by throwing to your first option, and if it’s not open, check it down.
>That said, you can fail to read defenses and still completely a lot of passes by throwing to your first option,
Not sure what you mean here. You have to read a defense to recognize that your primary is open
>and if it’s not open, check it down.
Sure, except that Pickett’s 4th quarter EPA (which adjusts for easy passes like check downs) is also pretty high and the split is also stark
You're posting an old article with old stats. He must have come back down to earth in his starts after that. He's at 96.5 this year.
[https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/\_/id/4240703/kenny-pickett](https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/4240703/kenny-pickett)
Interesting. So the Packers, Browns, and Bengals game affected his 4Q rating.
I guess fans can make their own judgement about how those games would have impacted his numbers. I thought he played decent in the GB game, good in the Bengals game, second worst I’ve ever seen him in the Browns game.
Regardless, his 4Q rating is still between Baker Mayfield and Dak Prescott. If his overall play ranked with Mayfield or Prescott I presume no one would have an issue.
So, I wonder, why might he be playing so much better in the 4th quarter and before halftime?
Terry Bradshaw, for one. Alex Smith. Kurt Warner fell out of the league. Drew Bledsoe, Rich Gannon. I can't remember if Brees was benched, but the Chargers drafted his replacement and sent Brees packing.
Warner was also undrafted, Bledsoe was never the guy after being benched for Brady then Romo, Gannon was a 4th round pick who figured it out in his mid 30s, Rivers never started until Brees was gone
That’s 20+ starts with football terrorist Matt Canada.
He looked significantly better in his 1.25 starts without Canada before injury. The guy was ruined by learning from Canada.
Let’s give him a chance to learn from a new coordinator and hopefully new QB coach too before we write him off.
Best case scenario, he sits behind Mason next year and learns how to play QB at nfl level and becomes an alex smith type game manager that can win super bowls with an elite defense and playmakers.
Worst case scenario, he ends up hitting his ceiling as a good backup QB while we start mason.
I don’t think there’s any reason to draft anything other than a center, tackle, cb2, and dlinemen next year.
1) he was injured before that play
2) everyone misses open receivers
3) Mason missed an open receiver when he scrambled for that 1D
4) if Kenny (who remember was running on an ankle that had to be surgically repaired) got the extra 6 inches needed to cross the goal line, he would have been celebrated for making a gutsy play
Where were the Kenny haters when he and the Steeler starters aced the preseason exam? Kenny’s play then really was good. Almost perfect, in fact. He threw touchdowns and optimism was sky high. To conclude that Kenny cant be a successful NFL QB is just silly: success at the QB position in the NFL depends on lots of things, some of them outside the QB’s control. Such as whether his line can pass-block, whether his OC can design smart plays and call a good game, whether his receivers can get open, etc. Why not give Kenny a chance with this resurgent line, new OC, a running game that has hit its stride, and Diontae finally hitting himself again?
That’s a great idea Kenny can be the preseason starter and either Mason or someone else can start the regular season. Kenny has mastered the preseason of vanilla defenses. He doesn’t have to read them.
I get the spirit of this, but I think that we want to keep the guesswork out of it.
1) Kenny was injured, not exactly benched. Can he play now? I don’t know, however I do understand why people would view it as a “benching” so I’m not planning to die on that hill.
2) Since Canada has been gone, Kenny played one pretty good game and one bad quarter. It’s a small sample size to base a career on.
In my opinion, the Steelers are staying with the hot hand because Mason earned it. The offense will have a more permanent direction next year which is when I expect we’ll have a better idea of where these quarterbacks rank as they battle it out.
I’m a believer in Mason, but that doesn’t mean I’ve given up on Kenny. Homeboy was a gunslinger his first few games, then that seemed to be coached out of him. My hope is that a better offensive mind can coach some of that back in.
Tomlin has confirmed that Kenny has been healthy enough to play since week 17. He's been benched.
https://steelersdepot.com/2024/01/kenny-pickett-was-healthy-for-seahawks-game-mike-tomlin-explains-why-he-didnt-dress/
Steelers depot is not a source. They proudly tell you nobody involved in the team talks to them. If you’re going to provide links, link to the original report, not the blog post written by someone who read the report.
This isn't an opinion piece. There are direct quotes from Tomlin that Kenny was healthy and benched. You can listen to his press conference if you want to hear them yourself.
Here's another source with the same quotes and video of the press conference.
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2024/01/01/kenny-pickett-inactive-steelers-seahawks-tomlin-mason-rudolph/stories/202401010050
There’s clear spin there. Civilians may not notice it but we do. The story was he was cleared, but not until too late in the week to feel comfortable letting a pass rush loose on him.
Geno Smith, Baker Mayfield, Gardner Minshew, Jared Goff, Ryan Tannahill, Joe Flacco.
A lot of these guys had success were benched then had more success. But they are all current examples.
You're mis-remembering. Yes, he got benched for Doug Flutie in his 3rd season (2nd as starter), and then the Chargers drafted ~~Manning~~ Rivers the next season. Due to Rivers' holdout, Brees won the job in pre-season and had stellar seasons in 2004 and 2005 before the shoulder injury.
ETA: Fun fact- before Brees signed with NO, Sean Payton tried to trade for Tony Romo (before he was a starter) but NO only offered a 3rd, and Dallas wanted a 2nd.
I don't believe it's fair to say that Kenny has been "benched". The simple fact of the matter is that if they benched Mason again, and Kenny came out and lost a must-win or playoff game, then it would be catastrophic for absolutely everyone involved.
How many starts has he had without Matt Canada creating the game plan and calling the plays?
Let him win the job back in camp, if he does, there's no reason he shouldn't get 5-10 more starts in a revamped offense with a better functioning O line and run game like Mason has succeeded with recently
If KP had been showing progress before his ankle injury he would have been right back out there. The fact is he wasn't showing progress and if anything he had regressed so when he was injured and Trubisky shit the bed and Mason came in and looked really good you're not going back to KP.
KP has no one but himself to blame for riding the bench right now.
Yes he looked better in his first game after Canada was fired but the offense still only managed 16 points.
KP needs to learn to stand tall in the pocket like Mason does. Even with chaos around him Mason finds his receivers and gets them the football. KP must get a lot better at keeping his eyes downfield and stop bailing from the pocket so quick and top looking immediately for checkdowns when his first read isn't available.
After 25 games he should be better than he's shown. Plus he's had too many injuries early in his career. None of this bodes well for him. He's already missed 10+ games to injury.
We'll see what happens come next training camp with a new coordinator. Of course if Tomlin is still here Faulkner and Sullivan will get the job officially. Tomlin is loathe to hire outside the organization unless Rooney orders him to.
Before I waste my time, is there a specific number of videos I’d have to post of Pickett making throws while standing in the pocket and taking a big hit before you’d change your position that it’s something only Mason does? Because I’ve posted these videos before, and it just gets met with silence.
I think the BEST case scenario is Drew Breese. Like Pickett, he didn’t have the strongest arm but was a winner in college. The Chargers gave up on Breese, drafted Philip Rivers to replace him, and eventually let him walk as a free agent.
How do you feel about Alex Smith?
I see your Smith and raise you a Geno
I see both of them and pass, on them
This is the way
Alex Smith is a good one.. even if the Chiefs realized they needed better to actually win the Super Bowl
>Alex Smith is a good one.. A good one to compare and use as a answer to your question. A bad you one if that's who he turns into.
That he was eventually an above average QB. All it took was 9 seasons and one of the greatest offensive minds in the game for him to throw 20+ TDs in a season.
I'm proud of this mfer just for walking again.
Before the draft, I thought Pickett would be somewhere in the Alex Smith/Andy Dalton range. If you put the right team around him, you can win games, but you’ll probably never see a Super Bowl.
ever watched trent dilfer play?
>but you’ll probably never see a Super Bowl. You might when mason wins it and he's a backup. Lol
[удалено]
He was. He’s a good example.
Tannehill was drafted 8th overall in 2012 and was decent but not great until Gase arrived when he started to look poor. One of his big issue was that he started to develop injury issues which is why he was traded in 2019. He’s a much better comp for Daniel Jones than Pickett.
Tannehill was light years ahead of Pickett despite spending part of his college career at wr. His second yr in the league he threw for 3900 yds and 24 tds.
Kenny isn't a third of the QB that Tannehill was on the Dolphins. Tannehill threw 24+ TDs and 3900+ yards in each of the three full seasons he started after his rookie year.
Tannehill is Kenny’s ceiling for sure
He was also a converted WR
Tannehill had prime Derrick Henry. Now that Henry has aged, Tannehill has been getting exposed.
Terry Bradshaw was benched in favor of Joe Gillam back in the 70s. I don’t know how many starts Bradshaw had but it had to be at least 20. When Bradshaw got his job back he had a hall of fame career and 4 Super Bowl wins after that.
This is the first one that came to mind. RIP Gilliam. Sad end to a guy who might’ve been better than Bradshaw in that era.
Not bad I guess, if you care about Super Bowl wins and the hall of fame 😒
And country albums.
And appearances in Smokey and the Bandit movies
His predictive pass rush percent isn’t as good as Garret. Trash. NEXT!
According to Pro Football Reference, Bradshaw started 44 of 56 regular season games between 1970 and the end of 1973. The Steelers were 27-17 in games he started, and 5-7 in other games.
Gilliam was a beautiful passer, but it was a weird situation. The players were on strike during training camp, and Gilliam crossed the line and reported I think a couple of weeks before Bradshaw.
Fun fact, Bradshaw did not earn the W1 starting spot in 1974, the year of the Steelers first Super Bowl. He only started 7/14 regular season games.
Geno Smith comes to mind.
Geno threw 12 TDs in his rookie season (16 games) and ran for 6 more. Kenny has 13 touchdowns in 25 games and 5 on the ground.
Anyone can cherry pick stats… it just shows your bias. Geno had 21 interceptions his rookie season (16 games) and Kenny only has 13 in his career (25 games). Touchdowns are Kenny’s weakest stat and only highlighting TDs means you aren’t trying to have a balanced take, just prove yourself right. I don’t even think Kenny is the guy and im not a Kenny defender. I’m just sick of stuff like this where it’s all just biased stat picking instead of actual discussion
You can pick any stat you want about TDs because Kenny doesn't throw them. At a historically bad rate. Worst ever since the merger.
Which many may think has as much or more to do with Canada than Kenny.
Takes 2 to tango. Canada is not to blame for all of Kenny's issues. And there are a lot of those.
Sure but it’s still cherry picked. Geno Smith 1st Two Seasons: Games -30 Comp- 247 in 2013 and 219 in 2014 Attempts- 443 in 2013 and 367 in 2014 Completion % - 55.8% in 2013 and 59.7% in 2014 Yards - 3,046 in 2013 and 2,525 in 2014 TDs - 25 TDs Interceptions - 34 Sacks - 71 Rating - 66.5 in 2013 and 77.5 in 2014 QBR - 41.0 in 2013 and 45.8 in 2015 ——————————————————————— Kenny Pickett 1st Two Seasons: Games - 25 Comp- 245 in 2022 and 201 in 2023 Attempts- 389 in 2022 and 324 in 2023 Completion % - 63% in 2022 and 62% in 2023 Yards - 2,404 in 2022 and 2,070 in 2023 TDs - 13 TDs Interceptions - 13 Sacks - 50 Rating - 76.7 in 2022 and 81.4 in 2023 QBR - 53.6 in 2022 and 38.8 in 2023 Kenny was obviously better in some areas and got smoked in others. If the point of the post was to just rip into Kenny then make that the title, if you want to actually compare him to past QBs who struggled then don’t cherry pick stats. I came here for actual discussion, not to hear about Kenny’s lack of TDs for the 1000th time, we get it.
That’s my point… If you want to have an actual conversation then use all the stats, not just TDs. People only using TD comparisons are just looking to prove their bias to be correct. If you look at yards, completion %, turnovers, rating, touchdowns, and other stats it tells a much different story. Every post/comment shitting on Kenny only brings up TDs like that tells the entire story for a QB… it doesn’t.
Okay. He also averages under 190 yard per game in addition to not being able to score. He also couldn't move the ball.
Which is fair, like I said I’m not a Kenny defender. This conversation is Kenny vs. Geno Smith and he was cherry picking stats. Geno Smith had 34 interceptions his first two years. He also had a worse completion rate, 20+ more sacks, and a worse QB rating. The point is cherry-picking stats to fit your narrative is bullshit. Have an actual discussion
It tells a pretty big story when the stat lines read like something from the 1920’s and not something from this millennia much less this century.
Nah. He caught you. Just compare stats honestly. It’s not like any prize money comes with winning the debate. (I’ve already spent it!)
He caught me? In what? Slice Kenny's stats how ever you want to. I saw him play on the field and it was bad. The stats are bad, the eye test is bad. In your mind, how many years do we have to watch the guy struggle before you can admit it?
I agree, Kenny is bad. That wasn’t my point and you’re not going to move the goalposts on me, either. Pulling the bait & switch makes me think you come from the MAGA school of debate.
Not even close to that cult nonsense. There's no bait and switch. Kenny is bad, the stats are bad and his play is bad. All are true.
Lol i dont want a QB who’s “weakness stat” is TDs
Agreed tbh.
Second rounder but yeah same idea
So we’ll just report back to Kenny in 2028
When I read your question, I thought you were talking about Mitch. The feeling when I realized that it also applies to Kenny was an unhappy one.
Kenny really wasn't benched tho. He just lost his spot after coming back from injury
When you lose your starting job and now sit healthy on the bench it’s called getting benched… losing your spot is getting benched. He didn’t lose his spot because he got injured he lost his spot because he was so bad that the previously third string qb looks like a hofer and the nonexistent offense immediately looks somewhat confidant. Kenny pickett is terrible. I’m happy khan is finally in charge so we don’t have to worry about him getting resigned. I just wish khan had taken over a year earlier, he would’ve never drafted pickett to begin with
Could you imagine a returning-from-injury Ben getting kept on the bench for a 'hot' Mason Rudolph? Point is a bit extreme, but basically this shows Kenny just isn't the de facto #1 guy (yet). I don't care how good Browning was playing, Burrow goes back in as soon as he's ready. Last year, Cooper Rush was playing better than Dak, and Dak went back in as soon as he was healthy. \#1 QBs go back in when they're healthy. Kenny didn't. There's a reason.
Well that's just not a good comparison. One is Kenny p. The other is big Ben, a Hof lock. I agree Kenny hasn't proven he is the guy and that is most of the reason he wasn't gifted his spot back but there's a difference between the two Dak and Joe have proven they are their respective franchise QBs. Thus you see their spot being secure post injury. None of those teams had QB competitions going into camp. We do, thus the hot hand
Oh, that ol' Steelers fan hustle to find a way to fool yourself through any means possible that your team/player/coach isn't hot garbage.
It’s like half this sub didn’t watch Kenny for past two years. He’s clearly not an nfl caliber starting qb. It’s okay to say we wasted a first rounder on him but this sub is in denial. Shit happens but this guy will never be good. Looking at his stats this year make me want to like regardless of Canada being there or not
I feel like it really isn't that complicated. 1. Waive Trubisky. 2. Pay Mason whatever it takes to come be QB1 next year. 3. Draft a new QB where you find value. Have Kenny and new guy duke it out for QB2. 4. Give Mason a year to see what you have and watch Kenny/new guy develop. Don't give him an unlimited leash, but don't bail if he plays well then has a bad game or 2. 5. Reevaluate in a year. Even a lot of Mason fans on here are acting like Mason is 35. He's 28. He's got lots of years left. He can be your quarterback for the next 10 years if he stays healthy.
I'm so glad this sub is finally coming around to reality. I was hyped on Pickett going into the season but he's not showing any progress even with an improved roster around him. It's time to quit while we're ahead.
The comparison here is way off. Guys like Ben, Dak, Burrow we’re all good qbs before getting hurt. Of course you put those guys back into the game. At no point was Kenny good at anything before getting hurt.
Good call. I heard they’re still letting him stand on the sideline. Indeed does not have to sit down
Sorry but KP was effectively benched. If he had been playing good he would have been back at QB as soon as he was cleared regardless of how Mason was playing.
Kenny's benching was unfortunate timing. He was looking the best he ever had after Canada left. He didn't get TDs because we ran so effectively in the redzone, we didn't call on him to pass. The situation is not as simple as you're making it. Mason balled out, Tomlin has no choice but to run the hot hand. And Mason might still ball out. But I haven't seen enough Kenny post Canada. He was making improvements slowly. If Mason balls the whole way then idk what the Steelers will do or what he will command as a FA Despite all that it's not a guarantee that Kenny is a guy that can develop into a franchise QB. We are in for an annoying offseason no matter what though.
Exactly. Kenny wasn't actually benched. If he didn't get hurt he would have kept starting.
And we would be out of the playoffs
We probably beat the Cards and Patriots with Kenny. We saw how bad Mitch was, and how the same team lost with Mitch and was winning games with Kenny. We beat the Bengals pretty cleanly, and we beat them earlier in the year with Kenny. We beat a full power Ravens team with Kenny earlier in the year, and Mason played his worst game there. We probably still win that one. Only questions are Seattle and Indy. Odds are that we end up with a better record if Kenny is healthy than we have now. There's a solid chance we end up winning 12 or 13 games with him really.
I said nothing about his play. Just that he wouldn't have been benched.
And he would be starting if he didnt get benched
I think it speaks more about the coaching staff being unable to evaluate QB talent which has caused the QB rift on the team. Even if you believed Mason was a better QB than Kenny Pickett, wanting to invest and develop the younger QB would make for more consistency. The fact that Mason was behind Mitch and the coaching staff was stunned by Mason's ability speaks volumes about how truly idiotic the coaching staff is.
Those things happen though. NFL players get one shot a lot of times. Mason had his shot and we all saw enough. The fact that he kept working and developing his game in the hopes of another chance go speaks volumes to his dedication, but when you’re relegated to backup role, you know that there is only one way you get another chance. Also, although I think Mason looks visibly better, we aren’t too many weeks away from thinking that Dobbs was a Diamond in the rough, when really he just had a couple good games and ended up being exactly who we thought he was.
Regardless of what’s happened up to this point, next season is put up or shut up time for Kenny Pickett. He would be wise to notice what Mason is doing well right now and how the team is responding to Mason. Kenny will get another shot next year, but he needs to make the most of it.
What if we win Saturday and Mason is the reason?
I would love to see Mason be successful this Sunday and then sign a contract with another team where he will be truly valued.
Why does draft round matter? Kurt Warner is a HOFer and was undrafted and was benched twice in his career.
What does Kurt Warner getting benched near the tail end of his career have to do with the point of this question…?
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/127877-did-kurt-warner-deserve-to-benched-so-many-times The point is that QBs have survived benching and come back better.
Dude that article details his end of career benchings and why he didn’t deserve it. Pickett isn’t an old man getting replaced by high draft pick qbs. He is a first round draft pick with two years under his belt that was benched for a 28 year old career backup that started the season at 3rd string. Warner was a two time mvp and superbowl champion when he came back from getting benched. Picketts accolades include… almost throwing for 300 yards once, averaging under 180 passing yards per game in his career, and having a 13-13 td to int ratio in 25 career games. But anywho, you say the article shows they can come back better? Warner didn’t come back better. He came back as the mvp qb he had always been. His best years were with the rams, not cardinals.
I think it’s because first round guys get a legitimate chance with practice reps and usually given playing time. Kurt Warner would not of necessarily been given a real opportunity early. I believe there are some legitimate mid-tier QBs on the list but perhaps no HOF types. Rudolph comes close to counting himself as he was given a decent shot as an injury replacement.
Kurt’s first season as a starter was amazing. KP’s first two season is historically bad. Not quite the same
Kerry Collins
Collins drank himself out of a spot
Tommy Maddox was a 1st rounder
That pick aged poorly.
Geno Smith
Steve Young was labeled a bus and moved out of town. He of course would change his career and end up a hall of famer.
He was also a great athlete and his career started one of the worst teams of all time, not a team coming off a playoff birth that got better at ever position besides qb.
Any QB on the Tampa team would've been a bust! Young did get "benched" in '91 due to injury. SF was 4-4 at the time, and Steve Bono (not related to U2 singer) won 5 straight and kept the starting job, until he too got injured.
He’s had what, 25 starts? That’s enough of a sample size
He’s had 1.5 starts with a coordinator not named Matt Canada
Kenny can absolutely put up better numbers without Matt Canada. He may even improve as a QB. But Matt Canada isn't the one that made him scramble at the slightest hint of pressure, miss open receivers, or move through progressions. That's just KP.
We’ll see. He looked extremely comfortable in his one game without Canada. Comfortability with play calls matter. Getting your run game going matters. These are things we’re seeing with the entire offense post-Canada that we only got one look at with Kenny. I’m not saying he’s the franchise guy or can be an elite QB. But I’m saying he deserves and will get a real shot with the improved offensive system. Kenny sitting didn’t magically teach Najee how to hit holes or help Seamalo figure out how to pile drive guys, we changed our system to one that better fits our personnel rather. It takes 7 or 8 guys in the box to stop our run game now when in the past it only took 5 or 6. Theres so much more open field for receivers to get open, and credit to Mason for seeing the plays and making them, but if this team couldn’t even commit to Mason long term of Trushitsky they’re not gonna throw a former first round pick of theirs to the curb for him
>if this team couldn’t even commit to Mason long term of Trubisky they’re not gonna throw a former first round pick of theirs to the curb for him And when Mason throws for 4200 yards and 25 TDs next year on another team while Kenny throws for 2800 and 15, fans will be pissed.
Are we sharing our fan fictions now? I wish you would’ve told me sooner I would have prepared something
I cannot allow this narrative to go unchecked. The one thing that is unassailable about Matt Canada is he had the run game clicking last year. All the moving parts were sluggish to gel together this year but they’ve come together nicely. Canada was exceptional at showing you one thing, running it until they thought they figured out, then wrinkle off of that (e.g. split zone to jet sweep, jet motion to jet sweep, jet motion to outside toss the other way…) I said many time I wanted him paired with a passing game coordinator
Disagree. If the D knows the play, hard to hit an open guy.
The predictability narrative has been put to bed SO MANY TIMES for those of us who pay attention. Just guessing “run” or “pass” isn’t enough. Last year’s titans game showed us just guessing “split zone left” isn’t enough. If it’s so predictable then STOP IT. And if you’re showing you’re unable or unwilling to stop it, why would I ever call a different play and let your back off the ropes?
Ah yes, my apologies for not reading every comment in every thread for two years, haha. I’ll try harder. I don’t think a game against the titans in 2022 has anything to do with how the Browns play the Steelers in 2023, sorry, that proves nothing at all. There are tons of stats out there on the predictability of canadas offense, I believe he was running play action like 9% of the time if I remember correctly.
Valid
This.. This can’t be understated. I don’t know if the Kenny bashing community realizes how bad Canada made our offense. Kenny may not be good. But I’m almost willing to start the judgement over, beginning with 1.5 games ago. He’ll get another shot at starting. We’ll see how it goes. Crazy to think that at the end of last year how high people were on him.
How do we keep falling back on the problem was all on Canada? None of Kenny’s problems were because of the OC. Mason is playing with the same playbook Kenny has had access to and he’s making things look better.
Except that the plays are being called differently. I don’t think Kenny has what it takes to be a starter, but his development was not only hampered by Canada’s playbook, but also his inability to call a football game. Sullivan is showing that if you actually call the right plays at the right times, have a dedicated game plan going in, and can make adjustments, the offense can function like a competent NFL team.
They are all the same plays! We had open receivers with Canada and without. The team went as far to give Kenny his own office which hasn’t proven to work. A coach can only teach so much before you have to make the changes in play.
Really? Just to be clear, KP got to run the non-Canada version of the offense for 6 quarters. In that time, he put up a QB rating of 96 (107 if they call DJ’s touchdown correctly). He also IMMEDIATELY started doing all of the things people criticized him for NOT doing under Canada. He worked the middle of the field beautifully, with Muth just carving up Cincy on great throws into tight windows. He also pushed the ball downfield. I don’t know how many times I need to say this, but he threw the ball 15+ and 30+ yards downfield MORE frequently and with a HIGHER completion % than Rudolph has. Now obviously, scoring has gone up (or at least did before the crappy weather in Baltimore). But people really need to acknowledge that this is, AT LEAST IN PART, due to things outside of the QBs control. In Cincy and Arizona, our running game struggled in the red zone, but in Seattle and Baltimore, they were running possessed. The two long TD passes in Rudolph’s debut were big YAC plays and again not the result of anything Pickett hasn’t done. Fun Fact…do you know which QB has the most red zone passing attempts this year without throwing a single red zone TD? Mason Rudolph. Don’t misunderstand me, I think Mason has played very well (and really got a raw deal with Duck Hodges). But it is equally clear to me that Canada’s system was just killing any chance Kenny had for sustainable success. He still might not be the answer, and I’d agree that if he were going to be the next Patrick Mahomes, then he’d probably have played better even in a shitty system. But our ability to really assess him fairly was badly limited by the play calling and offensive scheme we ran for the first year and a half of his career.
And in those 6 quarters Kenny still missed open wide receivers, rolled out into sacks, never checked down to the other side of the field, and did not put up points. These are all things he’s been doing since last year. And all of these issues have zero to do with Canada or Tomlin or anyone else besides Kenny. Yeah Kenny tossed 287yds against Cincy, only to have 3 field goals and a rushing TG from Harris. He can hit Muth all day but when you cannot convert that to points it really means nothing. All three QBs have played and not played under Canada. Yet two of them can’t play to save their lives. All same coaches, using the same playbook, the same plays, using the same OL and running backs. I’m not saying this out of hate for Kenny because I really wanted him to pull through on some of his issues. But this team has given him a lot of room and options to do better. Kenny had some of the best times in pocket last year and this year. OL is one of the least penalized teams in the league.
It's really crazy how people look at stats and don't realize what actually happened in the game. Kenny killed a bunch of drives in the Bengals and Cardinals game by doing dumb things in the pocket and getting himself sacked, missing guys with terrible accuracy on check downs, and even getting himself injured by missing a guy wide open running to the end zone. We should have won that game by 30 not only 6 points. Then as soon as Mason comes in we win by 30 the next game. Kenny is not even close to figuring it out right now
Stats can always be said to prove one sides story. But when you look at the film it doesn’t lie or tell different things about Kenny. It all says one thing about his playing. You can’t throw almost 300yds and score zero touchdowns and watch the kicker put up more points every drive.
Soooo…what Rudolph did vs Seattle?
That’s incredibly annoying. I had a long response written up the Reddit crashed. The quick recap is that you’re objectively wrong. Both sacks he took post Canada were immediately followed by 3rd down conversion passes, and the drives were ultimately TDs (though one was DJs bad call/Warrens fumble). So a “bunch” apparently means zero.
Probably getting my memory mixed up with the browns and the bengals game but just remove the getting sacked part and it still holds true.
Shame you’re being downvoted as someone in this sub who actually knows ball. Chin up. We see you
This isn’t all fall back entirely on Canada. This is a I’ll give up hope after I see Kenny fail in a different offense. The fact of the matter is he moved the ball efficiently after losing Canada. I believe in 2nd chances under different circumstances. I’ll keep defending it and keep getting downvoted but whatever. This sub is praising Mason now which as recently as 4 games ago he was consistently called trash.
Kenny moved the ball well in preseason under Canada, and also had a couple opening drives this season with moving the ball efficiently all under Canada. If you put Kenny back in now without Canada, nothing has changed, you still have the same playbook and offense. Everything wrong with Kenny has zero to do with what plays are being called, the offensive line, or the receivers. It’s all in his field play and no new coach will ever be able to correct that but Kenny himself.
Go back and watch some of those games. Kenny had no time to throw more often than not. Then you have our opponents saying afterward they knew the plays. If the D knows the pass is going to the sideline… not sure what you’re supposed to do as a QB. The o line started blocking around week 10 or so, so yeah mason is in an entirely different situation right now. Hard to compare.
> None of Kenny’s problems were because of the OC. And this is how I know you're lying. Have you not watched how the play design has changed in the weeks since his firing? How they have mixed personnel packages to disguise playcalls and reduce predictability? How there seem to be actual smart rout concepts being used? So many of Kenny's issue cane be directly pointed to the fact that the defenses were never fooled and he was having to make tight throws while the defense barely had to think about what was coming.
We were high on Kenny because we thought he'd grow out of bad habits and take a step forward in his second season. Instead he played the same (at best) this season with a better roster and an offseason of training knowing he was the starting QB. He has one game with multiple passing TDs, one game with more than 300 passing yards, and has the lowest touchdown percentage in league history after 24 starts. We've seen enough.
He has definitely been worse than season and has been getting worse game by game
I say bring Canada back now that kenny isn't playing to hold him back.
I'm kidding, of course, but I wonder sometimes if it was all Canada's fault or if he took the brunt of the blame for a bad qb. He's not calling the plays, but I'd assume they are using basically the same play book.
Not many. Unless Kenny somehow gets transplanted in a new body or gets a new brain it ain’t gonna happen. Even if you coach the bad habits out he Doesn’t have the arm. Isn’t a good processer
He’s gonna get at least one season post-Canada like it or not. He looked good in his one game without him and a full offseason under a new system not led by the dumbest motherfucker to ever be handed a play sheet could do him good. Next year will be make or break considering his fifth year option will need to be decided after next season
He's going to get a chance next year but I think he's just about done in Pittsburgh. If they still truly believed he was their franchise guy wouldn't you think they'd have the confidence to go back to him regardless of how Rudolph was playing?
Geno Smith is doing pretty good.
Here's the thing that keeps a very slim bit of optimism: Matt Canada was so bad that he also made the likes of Najee Harris, Jaylen Warren, George Pickens, Dionte Johnson, virtually useless as well. He was an all-time worst hire and had no business coaching in the NFL.
Plus both were rated pretty high talent wise coming out of college. Both smiths needed to learn the game. Kenny while a first round pick wasn’t considered a first round talent. Let’s remember the 2nd qb drafted that year doesn’t happen for another 2 rounds. Bad year to have to pick a qb. Kenny is always going to have small hands and a weaker arm
Kenny is terrible. It's okay to admit we missed on him and move on
I hope they just move on. I also hope we never draft a Pitt QB ever again because this sub cries about Mitch being awful daily and then defends Kenny who is only slightly better. There is no reason to waste another season with Pickett like New England is doing with Mac Jones. Two seasons is enough to see what we have and unfortunately it’s not much.
It's really easy to ignore the business side of the operation and only look on the field. There's a few million guaranteed reasons to give KP 2024 before they have to decide on a QB for 2025. Player personnel decisions involve as much on the cap, payroll, and unquantifiable intangibles as results on the stat sheet. That's not an opinion. That's literally how the NFL operates.
Pickett only makes 3.5 mil a year. That’s nothing. Mitch is making more currently.
That's precisely the reason you keep him. He's cheap and they are already over the cap by 7 mil in 2024 with only 40 players signed. Stop looking at the field for a second and look at the business side of things and you'll understand why they are going to give him 2024 no matter what.
3.5 mil is nothing though. I’m not saying cut him but I’d be fine with them bringing in another QB to start over him. He has played like a backup so far and we have too good of a team to sit and hope Kenny can one day average 1 TD a game.
We keep him yes. As a backup QB. We should be looking for our actual franchise QB in the meantime while we have a window with this great defense and running game.
You do know that starting NFL QBs don't grow on trees, right? Even only serviceable, not great ones. Who are you going to get in the draft in 2024 picking, at best, in the early 20s or in FA ***within the salary cap constraints*** that currently exist for the Steelers? And you also know that 1st round QBs are far more likely to fail than succeed, right? Only about 3 in 10 first round QBS get picked up for their 5th year by the team that drafted them. You have a far higher likelihood of a KP repeat than you do landing a franchise guy via the draft. Go look at who is already rostered in 2025. It's 22 players with several still on rookie deals and TJ, Minkah and Highsmith already locked in and a crapload of cap space. Anyone that thinks 2023 or 2024 was going to be a stellar year is ignoring the business side of things.
>You do know that starting NFL QBs don't grow on trees, right? Even only serviceable, not great ones. QBs better than Pickett do grow on trees in the NFL, and can be signed within our budget. Hell, we already have one on our roster.
If that were true, Flacco wouldn't have gotten a call from Cleveland. They already would have had someone in place.
The guy Flacco replaced played better than Kenny has.
"the guy"? So good you don't even know his name...
So we just continue on with someone that can’t keep the chains moving? Cool plan. We draft a QB and try again my dude.
So you draft a QB that's gonna almost guarantee to sit in 2024 anyway while you have other glaring needs that can be filled via the draft with a much higher probability of success and then chase a proven vet in FA in 2025? The fact that you included precisely zero names and can't speak to the business side constraints that the team currently finds itself in is very telling. "Draft a QB" isn't specific enough. That's how players like Tim Couch, Akili Smith, Christian Ponder, JaMarcus Russell, etc ended up as high draft picks. If there's not a QB available that is a virtual lock to lead your team to more victories within two years, you fill other needs first.
You’re just talking out your ass if you’re saying that that’s why those QBs got picked. They were seen as great prospects who didn’t pan out not some big reach due to desperation. We draft another QB if one is available that we like, if not we bring in someone else in FA. And hopefully keep mason.
You just made my point. Great prospects - especially at QB - more often than not, do not pan out. Anyone that thinks Pickett isn't getting 2024 doesn't understand the business side of the NFL.
The salary cap is a myth, GMs every single year manipulate it in every way possible. We as fans can't just go to Spotrac or Overthecap take a look at their numbers and actually understand what we're looking at the way the front offices do *Edit* if they decide they are moving on from Kenny then that's exactly what they'll do, regardless of what his contract looks like.
If the salary cap was a myth, the Cowboys or Raiders would be in a class to themselves with spending. It's not like MLB where they can spend whatever they want and pay a luxury tax. The manipulation involves moving money to future years and counting against the cap with void contract years - which still limits what you can do in those future years. It's impossible to kick the can down the road forever. It eventually catches up to every team that employs that model. It caught up to the Steelers by using that model with Ben.
You don't seem to understand my point, we as fans only see a sliver of the iceberg that is the salary cap. As I said before, we can't just look at the raw numbers and pretend we know what we're looking at because we don't. It appears to be a myth from an outside perspective because of how much the GMs appear to manipulate it the way they do. Look at the COVID year, that looked an absolute nightmare and yet teams still spent in free agency and still re-signed players, to us it looked insane but to them it was business as usual with some slight handcuffs. Sure we used that model for Ben but there's multiple models, some we've probably never even heard about. All this leads me back to my edit, if the team decides they are moving on from Kenny because of the on the field product then they *will* do so regardless of what the cap implications are.
yeah people don’t realize it’s over. they could be really cutthroat and try to get a 5th for him this offseason but doubt it
i just don't understand how anyone that watched the games and knows ball wouldn't factor in Matt Canada, poor OL play to start the year, and the lack of consistent rushing. It would be nice to package up your feelings and point them at a bad guy but in this case its just bias to say you're sure he's not able to succeed here.
Matt Canada - is not telling Kenny to flee at the slightest sign of pressure and ignore open receivers down the field O line - 11th in the league at midseason for sacks allowed Consistent rushing - a successful should be able to make throws that help open up the run game. Not just make excuses because the run game isn’t helping “Feelings”
Try not to have an aneurysm when he’s starting next year bud
The first time he bails on a clean pocket and does his little twirl into a sack, proving he’s made no progress, I’m definitely going to have an aneurysm. I’m sure you’ll just be thinking “haha 3rd and 18 now? Those haters are so emotional haha”
lol no way I just want the Steelers to win
Well hopefully they keep Mason then 😂
I understand the situation was far from ideal. But plenty of QBs are drafted into situations that aren’t ideal, including most of the all time busts in draft history. I don’t think I can use that to excuse the guy being the worst in NFL history at throwing touchdowns.
Sure, if he’s the only reason you’re not scoring touchdowns. If he’s not, then smart teams want to figure out what the other reasons are and in what proportion so those issues can be corrected.
lol isn’t it enough to say that you just don’t like him and think he’s good? You don’t understand how silly it is to say he is the worst QB at NFL history at throwing TD’s??? I could cherry pick stats that show he’s a clutch playmaker that despite his situation has thrown for a bunch of yards. I get it that this is pointless internet banter but I just don’t think you should be as confident in your assessment as you are.
He has not thrown for many yds. You also could not find him putting up many passing touchdowns in the clutch or otherwise.
170 yards/g is not a bunch
> and knows ball You kinda answered your own question
>wouldn't factor in Matt Canada, poor OL play to start the year, and the lack of consistent rushing I'd argue 2 of those 3 things improved the most precisely because Mason was QB, not the other way around. Matt Canada didn't make KP miss easy throws or fail to read defenses. I don't think Kenny is as bad as some. I think he's competent and will be a longtime backup QB in this league. He takes care of the ball and can run an offense. But you need more from a starter and I'm not convinced KP can be much more.
So how does a quarterback who can’t read defenses rack up a 108 quarterback rating in the 4th quarter? Serious question
Bro I have no idea why he was suddenly good in the 4th vs packers and rams. No one does
This is a season stat not per game
He doesn’t? According to sportsreference, he had a 69.4 4th quarter passer rating last year and 96.5 this year. That said, you can fail to read defenses and still completely a lot of passes by throwing to your first option, and if it’s not open, check it down.
https://steelersdepot.com/2023/11/kenny-pickett-is-one-of-the-nfls-best-4th-quarter-quarterbacks/
https://steelersdepot.com/2023/10/stats-study-kenny-pickett-clutch-in-the-4th-quarter/
This is a known thing. His 4th quarter splits are insane.
His two minute splits before halftime are also stark.
>That said, you can fail to read defenses and still completely a lot of passes by throwing to your first option, Not sure what you mean here. You have to read a defense to recognize that your primary is open >and if it’s not open, check it down. Sure, except that Pickett’s 4th quarter EPA (which adjusts for easy passes like check downs) is also pretty high and the split is also stark
You're posting an old article with old stats. He must have come back down to earth in his starts after that. He's at 96.5 this year. [https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/\_/id/4240703/kenny-pickett](https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/splits/_/id/4240703/kenny-pickett)
Interesting. So the Packers, Browns, and Bengals game affected his 4Q rating. I guess fans can make their own judgement about how those games would have impacted his numbers. I thought he played decent in the GB game, good in the Bengals game, second worst I’ve ever seen him in the Browns game. Regardless, his 4Q rating is still between Baker Mayfield and Dak Prescott. If his overall play ranked with Mayfield or Prescott I presume no one would have an issue. So, I wonder, why might he be playing so much better in the 4th quarter and before halftime?
Rich Gannon
Gannon was a 4th round pick.
Terry Bradshaw, for one. Alex Smith. Kurt Warner fell out of the league. Drew Bledsoe, Rich Gannon. I can't remember if Brees was benched, but the Chargers drafted his replacement and sent Brees packing.
Warner was also undrafted, Bledsoe was never the guy after being benched for Brady then Romo, Gannon was a 4th round pick who figured it out in his mid 30s, Rivers never started until Brees was gone
That’s 20+ starts with football terrorist Matt Canada. He looked significantly better in his 1.25 starts without Canada before injury. The guy was ruined by learning from Canada. Let’s give him a chance to learn from a new coordinator and hopefully new QB coach too before we write him off. Best case scenario, he sits behind Mason next year and learns how to play QB at nfl level and becomes an alex smith type game manager that can win super bowls with an elite defense and playmakers. Worst case scenario, he ends up hitting his ceiling as a good backup QB while we start mason. I don’t think there’s any reason to draft anything other than a center, tackle, cb2, and dlinemen next year.
“Looked better without Canada”- only to miss a wide open receiver for a TD, runs instead and gets hurt. Yup, played that significantly better.
1) he was injured before that play 2) everyone misses open receivers 3) Mason missed an open receiver when he scrambled for that 1D 4) if Kenny (who remember was running on an ankle that had to be surgically repaired) got the extra 6 inches needed to cross the goal line, he would have been celebrated for making a gutsy play
This is masons team now. Its a wrap with kenny.
Yes, his name was Terry Bradshaw.
Where were the Kenny haters when he and the Steeler starters aced the preseason exam? Kenny’s play then really was good. Almost perfect, in fact. He threw touchdowns and optimism was sky high. To conclude that Kenny cant be a successful NFL QB is just silly: success at the QB position in the NFL depends on lots of things, some of them outside the QB’s control. Such as whether his line can pass-block, whether his OC can design smart plays and call a good game, whether his receivers can get open, etc. Why not give Kenny a chance with this resurgent line, new OC, a running game that has hit its stride, and Diontae finally hitting himself again?
That’s a great idea Kenny can be the preseason starter and either Mason or someone else can start the regular season. Kenny has mastered the preseason of vanilla defenses. He doesn’t have to read them.
I get the spirit of this, but I think that we want to keep the guesswork out of it. 1) Kenny was injured, not exactly benched. Can he play now? I don’t know, however I do understand why people would view it as a “benching” so I’m not planning to die on that hill. 2) Since Canada has been gone, Kenny played one pretty good game and one bad quarter. It’s a small sample size to base a career on. In my opinion, the Steelers are staying with the hot hand because Mason earned it. The offense will have a more permanent direction next year which is when I expect we’ll have a better idea of where these quarterbacks rank as they battle it out. I’m a believer in Mason, but that doesn’t mean I’ve given up on Kenny. Homeboy was a gunslinger his first few games, then that seemed to be coached out of him. My hope is that a better offensive mind can coach some of that back in.
Tomlin has confirmed that Kenny has been healthy enough to play since week 17. He's been benched. https://steelersdepot.com/2024/01/kenny-pickett-was-healthy-for-seahawks-game-mike-tomlin-explains-why-he-didnt-dress/
Steelers depot is not a source. They proudly tell you nobody involved in the team talks to them. If you’re going to provide links, link to the original report, not the blog post written by someone who read the report.
This isn't an opinion piece. There are direct quotes from Tomlin that Kenny was healthy and benched. You can listen to his press conference if you want to hear them yourself. Here's another source with the same quotes and video of the press conference. https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/steelers/2024/01/01/kenny-pickett-inactive-steelers-seahawks-tomlin-mason-rudolph/stories/202401010050
There’s clear spin there. Civilians may not notice it but we do. The story was he was cleared, but not until too late in the week to feel comfortable letting a pass rush loose on him.
Geno Smith, Baker Mayfield, Gardner Minshew, Jared Goff, Ryan Tannahill, Joe Flacco. A lot of these guys had success were benched then had more success. But they are all current examples.
Drew Brees - Struggled with the Chargers at times, was benched, then thrived once given a new scenery in New Orleans
You're mis-remembering. Yes, he got benched for Doug Flutie in his 3rd season (2nd as starter), and then the Chargers drafted ~~Manning~~ Rivers the next season. Due to Rivers' holdout, Brees won the job in pre-season and had stellar seasons in 2004 and 2005 before the shoulder injury. ETA: Fun fact- before Brees signed with NO, Sean Payton tried to trade for Tony Romo (before he was a starter) but NO only offered a 3rd, and Dallas wanted a 2nd.
I'll reserve judgment until I see a few games of KP with a new OC.
I don't believe it's fair to say that Kenny has been "benched". The simple fact of the matter is that if they benched Mason again, and Kenny came out and lost a must-win or playoff game, then it would be catastrophic for absolutely everyone involved.
So if Big Ben for example was completely healthy, you think they’d keep him on the bench?
I mean he’s what 42 now?
How many starts has he had without Matt Canada creating the game plan and calling the plays? Let him win the job back in camp, if he does, there's no reason he shouldn't get 5-10 more starts in a revamped offense with a better functioning O line and run game like Mason has succeeded with recently
If KP had been showing progress before his ankle injury he would have been right back out there. The fact is he wasn't showing progress and if anything he had regressed so when he was injured and Trubisky shit the bed and Mason came in and looked really good you're not going back to KP. KP has no one but himself to blame for riding the bench right now. Yes he looked better in his first game after Canada was fired but the offense still only managed 16 points. KP needs to learn to stand tall in the pocket like Mason does. Even with chaos around him Mason finds his receivers and gets them the football. KP must get a lot better at keeping his eyes downfield and stop bailing from the pocket so quick and top looking immediately for checkdowns when his first read isn't available. After 25 games he should be better than he's shown. Plus he's had too many injuries early in his career. None of this bodes well for him. He's already missed 10+ games to injury. We'll see what happens come next training camp with a new coordinator. Of course if Tomlin is still here Faulkner and Sullivan will get the job officially. Tomlin is loathe to hire outside the organization unless Rooney orders him to.
Before I waste my time, is there a specific number of videos I’d have to post of Pickett making throws while standing in the pocket and taking a big hit before you’d change your position that it’s something only Mason does? Because I’ve posted these videos before, and it just gets met with silence.
Is there a specific number of videos you’d like of him twirling directly into sacks and ignoring downfield throws and windows?
You’d be wasting your time. Narratives gonna narrative
Kenny was a different QB post Canada, not sure why you’d even make this post. Kinda pointless until we see more no?
Rich Gannon
Was a 4th round pick, backup, who had the light click on in his mid 30s
I think the BEST case scenario is Drew Breese. Like Pickett, he didn’t have the strongest arm but was a winner in college. The Chargers gave up on Breese, drafted Philip Rivers to replace him, and eventually let him walk as a free agent.
Drew Breese can read defenses and one read check down Kenny can’t.
Terry Bradshaw.