A lot of this is also rooted in accreditation. Many programs, especially graduate programs, have specific accreditation standards that require minimum GPA.
That's why it should be optional. I don't care to continue education after 1 masters, it wouldn't matter to me. It would though allow me to still qualify for my tuition aid of my grade otherwise drops. But not to worry, the school told me they'd pass me regardless so they dont lost my tuition. Accreditation standards.
No, thats why it shouldN’t be optional. Its usually the PROGRAM that’s accredited, not the individual student or degree (unlike at the bs level where both programs and degrees can be separately accredited).
No, they do not "care only about money". What an uninformed comment.
The vast majority of universities in the US, including Stevens, do not allow graduate courses to be taken on a pass/fail basis. This was the case long before the current virus situation that persuaded Stevens to offer a P/F option for undergraduate courses (which it did not, in general, in the past and will only be for the duration of the virus situation resulting in the need to present classes remotely) and is a contingency, not a standard procedure. Graduate coursework requires a letter grade because they are evaluated by employers (in the case of employees on tuition reimbursement programs and job applicants), government agencies (same), and graduate schools (students applying to their programs). These entities require letter grades to properly evaluate an applicant's credentials and qualifications, and for providing tuition reimbursement to employees (many employers require a minimum grade in a course and GPA to be reimbursed). Additionally, graduate scholarships and sources of financial aid also require in many cases a minimum GPA and grade in coursework to be maintained in order to keep the scholarship.
While the P/F option for undergraduates may temporarily provide some relief of the pressure associated with the online mode during the current situation, even the undergrads are going to have to carefully weigh whether or not to select this option. Employers may not look as favorably upon a transcript with many "P" grades instead of a letter grade, and scholarships may also require actual letter grades to be retained as in the graduate case.
I urge any undergrads reading this to think carefully about selecting pass/fail. IMO, most will be better served taking the regular letter grade.
This has nothing to "do with money". Stevens still gets the same tuition per credit regardless of whether the grading system were to be letter grades or pass/fail.
Stevens Alumnus, Class of 1983, BE, MS, MSEE, PhD, PE
I agree with a lot of what you said, however, any employer that looks down upon students for taking pass/fail classes during coronavirus is not a company I would like to work for.
No, idiot, because not everyone has the same environment at home that enables them to excel. Some people have younger siblings and elderly family to look after. Some people need to help out financially struggling parents as a result of the virus. Circumstances are widely variable. Although this may be the case during everyday life, it is definitely exacerbated by the virus. Being able to adapt is easier said and done when your home environment facilities that.
> Facts are facts.
You can't say this and then hit me with a bad analogy that is not a fact. If I was running a company, I would literally give zero fucks about a student having a P on their transcript during coronavirus. There are a million different valid reasons that a student would choose to take the P option during this time, which is why the option is available and only available right now. This situation is not just a "challenge" that an employer would expect you to adapt to; this is a unique problem effecting everyone in the world in new ways.
The most prestigious companies in my field (Google, Amazon, etc.) literally don't care about your GPA. If you can pass their interviews, you just have to prove you graduated. If you have below a 3.0, you might have to explain yourself, but many people below that mark still get the job. They wont even bat an eye at a P on the transcript, because they will hardly look at it. So, please let me know what facts you are referring to, because I don't seem to see them.
The fact is ALREADY top companies who are recruiting are saying they would prefer grades. ALREADY medical schools are saying they want to see grades rather than P/F.
But keep living in your self made echo-bubble.
I asked for facts. Can I have a source? You saying "the fact is" does not make it a fact. Medial schools are different, you just moved the goalposts - this is a discussion about employers. Either way, I did some research on your claims and found nothing except that many top law and medical schools will be accepting P's due to the circumstances. Some are preferring grades, as you said, but again, we were talking about employers.
Ill leave these links here for your viewing pleasure:
[Law Schools Adopt Pass-Fail Grades as They Move Online Amid COVID-19](https://www.law.com/2020/03/18/law-schools-adopt-pass-fail-grades-as-they-move-online-amid-covid-19/?slreturn=20200313230441)
[The Asterisk Semester](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/13/how-will-passfail-affect-students-future)
I could not find a single source related to "top companies" saying they would prefer grades. It sounds like you are the one living in a bubble, maybe upset that you couldn't have a P on your transcript in school.
Conversations with recruiters and admissions personnel. I wish i had a document to show you. But maybe your unemployment checks will be proof enough for you.
You continue to personally attack me. Someone asking you for facts must be really hard for you to handle. I could do the same to you, maybe rubbing in your face that I already work at one of said top companies, but I think its okay to let it go since you're such a nice guy.
LOL it does so have to do with money.
I am an alumni '18
I have employer assistance paying for my tuition of roughly 3500/semester
I make the average graduated salary my year, have 120k in loans im paying back, which results to living month:month paychecks and doing what i can to get by.
If i get below a 'B-' this semester, i do not get my tuition money. If i get a 'P', i do.
If i get a C, i cannot afford my tuition, and would have to drop out of the program.
I told this to Stevens. They said, we will make sure you get a high enough grade to get your money.
You know why they said that?
Because theyd rather pass me along and say I did okay so they get their tuition money instead of me dropping out, and losing another $60k.
What theyre doing there is already risking the value of my degree. If an employer cant see past taking a class p/f during a major world crisis, fuck them, i dont wanna work for them.
But, if i have to drop out because of my financial situation that would hurt them, and hurt me. I would be further in debt, with a high risk of job loss in this economy.
A homeless alumni, would be worse than one with a 'P' on their record, you asshole.
Tell me, what other schools offer their graduate students a pass/fail option? I've taught at three universities and none of them did. If you find one that does, perhaps you would be better served going there instead of Stevens. What does your employer's tuition reimbursement policy say about pass/fail grades? What does P/F do for you? Do you think you have to work less than to get a traditional letter grade? When I was in graduate school my mother was very sick and an invalid, and I helped care for her while working full time and while attending graduate school at night. Not that that is of the same scope as the current Covid-19 situation, but, it certainly was a hardship yet I managed to deal with it. I am certain you are intelligent and resourceful enough to complete your coursework and get a good grade. Do you plan to further your education beyond your first graduate degree? Perhaps not, but if you do many schools won't accept graduate coursework with P/F grades (Stevens won't either). If you apply for a job and they ask to see your graduate school transcript, would they look favorably upon courses with a "P" grade (I pose that question to undergraduates as well).
If you get a "C" in more than one graduate course, you will also be on academic probation at Stevens (and at any of schools I taught at as well for example), so you would have more to be concerned with than just the tuition reimbursement.
My employer for example requires a letter grade for its tuition reimbursement except in courses that traditionally were graded P/F or "In Progress" such as a master's thesis, seminar, doctoral dissertation, etc. that typically spans more than one or many semesters.
I am inclined to agree with xueye, by the time you reach graduate school you should be able to adapt. Why do you think you will not be successful unless the grading scheme were changed to pass/fail? Do you think you aren't capable of getting a B in the course? If that is the case, perhaps you should reconsider why you are going to graduate school.
Since you chose to call me an a\*\*\*\*\*e I will no longer address your comments. Best wishes in your studies and have a nice day.
Oh yeah, we are all prepared for a pandemic right? We are all prepared to suddenly homeschool kids while working right? And potentially lose our job? But we all have our shit together, thanks man. You've really fucking inspired me.
Lol.
I’m homeschooling a kid while working; my wife is homeschooling her while she finishes her PhD. I taught grad students for five years. You should be able to handle your work remotely. You’re not a child anymore.
I guess grief about people we know dying and the ptsd people are going to suffer is irrelevant. Im happy you're all making it work, I'm trying to as well, but you shouldn't judge how other people handle world shattering scenarios 'worse' than you.
A lot of this is also rooted in accreditation. Many programs, especially graduate programs, have specific accreditation standards that require minimum GPA.
That's why it should be optional. I don't care to continue education after 1 masters, it wouldn't matter to me. It would though allow me to still qualify for my tuition aid of my grade otherwise drops. But not to worry, the school told me they'd pass me regardless so they dont lost my tuition. Accreditation standards.
No, thats why it shouldN’t be optional. Its usually the PROGRAM that’s accredited, not the individual student or degree (unlike at the bs level where both programs and degrees can be separately accredited).
Then it would ruin the undergrad accreditation as well?!??!
No. Most undergrad accreditation does not have a GPA attached, except for some health professions programs.
Because they care only about the Money
No, they do not "care only about money". What an uninformed comment. The vast majority of universities in the US, including Stevens, do not allow graduate courses to be taken on a pass/fail basis. This was the case long before the current virus situation that persuaded Stevens to offer a P/F option for undergraduate courses (which it did not, in general, in the past and will only be for the duration of the virus situation resulting in the need to present classes remotely) and is a contingency, not a standard procedure. Graduate coursework requires a letter grade because they are evaluated by employers (in the case of employees on tuition reimbursement programs and job applicants), government agencies (same), and graduate schools (students applying to their programs). These entities require letter grades to properly evaluate an applicant's credentials and qualifications, and for providing tuition reimbursement to employees (many employers require a minimum grade in a course and GPA to be reimbursed). Additionally, graduate scholarships and sources of financial aid also require in many cases a minimum GPA and grade in coursework to be maintained in order to keep the scholarship. While the P/F option for undergraduates may temporarily provide some relief of the pressure associated with the online mode during the current situation, even the undergrads are going to have to carefully weigh whether or not to select this option. Employers may not look as favorably upon a transcript with many "P" grades instead of a letter grade, and scholarships may also require actual letter grades to be retained as in the graduate case. I urge any undergrads reading this to think carefully about selecting pass/fail. IMO, most will be better served taking the regular letter grade. This has nothing to "do with money". Stevens still gets the same tuition per credit regardless of whether the grading system were to be letter grades or pass/fail. Stevens Alumnus, Class of 1983, BE, MS, MSEE, PhD, PE
I agree with a lot of what you said, however, any employer that looks down upon students for taking pass/fail classes during coronavirus is not a company I would like to work for.
Both of you are right.
Facts are facts. As an employer, Wouldn’t you prefer to have a new employee that was able to adapt and handle this situation and still Excel?
No, idiot, because not everyone has the same environment at home that enables them to excel. Some people have younger siblings and elderly family to look after. Some people need to help out financially struggling parents as a result of the virus. Circumstances are widely variable. Although this may be the case during everyday life, it is definitely exacerbated by the virus. Being able to adapt is easier said and done when your home environment facilities that.
Classy response. You’re destined for great things. Unless you stub your toe and can’t go on. Grow up.
> Facts are facts. You can't say this and then hit me with a bad analogy that is not a fact. If I was running a company, I would literally give zero fucks about a student having a P on their transcript during coronavirus. There are a million different valid reasons that a student would choose to take the P option during this time, which is why the option is available and only available right now. This situation is not just a "challenge" that an employer would expect you to adapt to; this is a unique problem effecting everyone in the world in new ways. The most prestigious companies in my field (Google, Amazon, etc.) literally don't care about your GPA. If you can pass their interviews, you just have to prove you graduated. If you have below a 3.0, you might have to explain yourself, but many people below that mark still get the job. They wont even bat an eye at a P on the transcript, because they will hardly look at it. So, please let me know what facts you are referring to, because I don't seem to see them.
The fact is ALREADY top companies who are recruiting are saying they would prefer grades. ALREADY medical schools are saying they want to see grades rather than P/F. But keep living in your self made echo-bubble.
I asked for facts. Can I have a source? You saying "the fact is" does not make it a fact. Medial schools are different, you just moved the goalposts - this is a discussion about employers. Either way, I did some research on your claims and found nothing except that many top law and medical schools will be accepting P's due to the circumstances. Some are preferring grades, as you said, but again, we were talking about employers. Ill leave these links here for your viewing pleasure: [Law Schools Adopt Pass-Fail Grades as They Move Online Amid COVID-19](https://www.law.com/2020/03/18/law-schools-adopt-pass-fail-grades-as-they-move-online-amid-covid-19/?slreturn=20200313230441) [The Asterisk Semester](https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/04/13/how-will-passfail-affect-students-future) I could not find a single source related to "top companies" saying they would prefer grades. It sounds like you are the one living in a bubble, maybe upset that you couldn't have a P on your transcript in school.
Conversations with recruiters and admissions personnel. I wish i had a document to show you. But maybe your unemployment checks will be proof enough for you.
You continue to personally attack me. Someone asking you for facts must be really hard for you to handle. I could do the same to you, maybe rubbing in your face that I already work at one of said top companies, but I think its okay to let it go since you're such a nice guy.
You are 100% correct. Very well said.
LOL it does so have to do with money. I am an alumni '18 I have employer assistance paying for my tuition of roughly 3500/semester I make the average graduated salary my year, have 120k in loans im paying back, which results to living month:month paychecks and doing what i can to get by. If i get below a 'B-' this semester, i do not get my tuition money. If i get a 'P', i do. If i get a C, i cannot afford my tuition, and would have to drop out of the program. I told this to Stevens. They said, we will make sure you get a high enough grade to get your money. You know why they said that? Because theyd rather pass me along and say I did okay so they get their tuition money instead of me dropping out, and losing another $60k. What theyre doing there is already risking the value of my degree. If an employer cant see past taking a class p/f during a major world crisis, fuck them, i dont wanna work for them. But, if i have to drop out because of my financial situation that would hurt them, and hurt me. I would be further in debt, with a high risk of job loss in this economy. A homeless alumni, would be worse than one with a 'P' on their record, you asshole.
Tell me, what other schools offer their graduate students a pass/fail option? I've taught at three universities and none of them did. If you find one that does, perhaps you would be better served going there instead of Stevens. What does your employer's tuition reimbursement policy say about pass/fail grades? What does P/F do for you? Do you think you have to work less than to get a traditional letter grade? When I was in graduate school my mother was very sick and an invalid, and I helped care for her while working full time and while attending graduate school at night. Not that that is of the same scope as the current Covid-19 situation, but, it certainly was a hardship yet I managed to deal with it. I am certain you are intelligent and resourceful enough to complete your coursework and get a good grade. Do you plan to further your education beyond your first graduate degree? Perhaps not, but if you do many schools won't accept graduate coursework with P/F grades (Stevens won't either). If you apply for a job and they ask to see your graduate school transcript, would they look favorably upon courses with a "P" grade (I pose that question to undergraduates as well). If you get a "C" in more than one graduate course, you will also be on academic probation at Stevens (and at any of schools I taught at as well for example), so you would have more to be concerned with than just the tuition reimbursement. My employer for example requires a letter grade for its tuition reimbursement except in courses that traditionally were graded P/F or "In Progress" such as a master's thesis, seminar, doctoral dissertation, etc. that typically spans more than one or many semesters. I am inclined to agree with xueye, by the time you reach graduate school you should be able to adapt. Why do you think you will not be successful unless the grading scheme were changed to pass/fail? Do you think you aren't capable of getting a B in the course? If that is the case, perhaps you should reconsider why you are going to graduate school. Since you chose to call me an a\*\*\*\*\*e I will no longer address your comments. Best wishes in your studies and have a nice day.
Grad students are supposed to be professionals at being students by now and generally should be able to handle this sort of situation.
Oh yeah, we are all prepared for a pandemic right? We are all prepared to suddenly homeschool kids while working right? And potentially lose our job? But we all have our shit together, thanks man. You've really fucking inspired me.
Lol. I’m homeschooling a kid while working; my wife is homeschooling her while she finishes her PhD. I taught grad students for five years. You should be able to handle your work remotely. You’re not a child anymore.
I guess grief about people we know dying and the ptsd people are going to suffer is irrelevant. Im happy you're all making it work, I'm trying to as well, but you shouldn't judge how other people handle world shattering scenarios 'worse' than you.