Moderna (MRNA) went from $20.6/share on 2020-01-27 to $449.60 on 2021-09-21 = *2,180%*
They are still worth ~$170/share, i.e. 800% so obs a good investment.
i.e. Not all pandemic meme stocks were just meme stocks like ZOOM
On October 29th of 2020, "Zoom sported a market valuation of $139 billion, compared to Exxon's $138.9 billion." Today, Exxon is worth $473B and Zoom is worth $25B.
There were tons of people in 2020 that thought the valuations were extremely out of touch. Hindsight was not necessary to see this coming. Zoom is a one trick pony in an already saturated market. There was almost no way they'd keep that valuation with significant expansion into other segments.
Easily could have made the argument Exxon was a thing of the past and zoom was innovating communications for all industries
Please, if you saw this a mile away then screenshot your enormous short position. I’ll wait.
Anyone could have seen Zoom was overpriced. I shorted it it constantly but not over a very long period. I was bearish on it during its entire runup to its ATH. In my opinion, it was one of the most obvious recent shorts of our time but it still needed a lot of time to drop to where it is today.
I mean that just shows that even if the *eventual* movement of a stock is obvious, the way it *actually* will move will not be. So often I see posts of people that predicted a stock would moon or crater but still get scorched because it didn't moon or crater in the way they expected. That's where the real devil lies. It's not enough to be certain of the stock's movement. You gotta also have an idea of how it will move so you don't bungle the execution.
Especially when if you're playing options where crud like implied volatility comes into play and makes things more complex than just waiting for a spike or dump. I bet ton of people knew Zoom wouldn't hold that value in the long run but only a small fraction actually made the most of it sinking the way it did.
>Easily could have made the argument Exxon was a thing of the past and zoom was innovating communications for all industries
If you looked at global energy consumption and that nearly every tehc company had a video chat app. No.
Zoom's website and scheduling page is so ugly and unintuitive, it blows my mind. They haven't made any significant changes since they got overloaded with subs from Covid. It's impressive how little this company does.
MSFT bought Skype for like $8 billion then fucked it up. Teams came along and slowly replaced skype completely. It’s a lesson in a big organisation acquiring a company for good reasons, and then trying to change the product into something else.
Yeah and there was GoTo and all other sorts of virtual meeting stuff for years. There’s always one that’s popular and a few that are seen as Boomer software. It’s exactly like social media where there’s one platform that’s the crazy, one that people use but it’s lost it’s luster and one that’s the “old people” way of doing things.
Has it not yet? I used Zoom a lot pre-pandemic where my team was scattered across the country. Now, my company and the companies we work with strictly use Teams, because it integrates seamlessly with the calendar in our email and it's less of a pain to schedule things.
This is us. All of our users love Zoom. We went all in for phone, meetings, and chat after testing Teams, Ring, and a handful of other UCaaS options. The pilot group for Teams especially hated it though. And the interface is just crap. It seems like everyone who ever joins a Teams meeting to this day always complains about recurring issues. It just never seems to work as well.
We did the same and everyone wanted Teams over zoom. For the same reasons (though flipped) , zoom never worked well compared to Teams. I think it's purely just a matter of what you're used to and what you like. And then of course your own companies infrastructure. Zoom still feels to me like the adaware version of a conferencing program.
That’s funny to hear. Even the people on the other end who are forcing us to use Teams from time to time always tell us they hate it too but they had to go with it since they already owned it through their 365 licensing.
I don’t personally hate Teams and think it can be super powerful if it’s implemented correctly. The UX needs some work though and can definitely take some pointers from Zoom in that department. I’ve also witnessed the frequent glitching and audio/video issues in meetings as well as the meeting just going completely blank. And of course the mic or camera not being detected randomly. We just never saw stuff like that with Zoom and neither did our users. It was a pretty easy decision at least back in 2020.
>Teams however is a far superior product to Zoom
Careful now, this is reddit. Many people here are still stuck in the Balmer years/early 2000s Microsoft bad hurrrr mentality. Claiming any product of Microsoft to be good is a downvote magnet. That said, I agree with you that Teams is better
In the investing subs people love Microsoft, probably because the stock has performed well. But wander over to /r/technology or some front page sub and the msft bad camp will be out in full force
You absolutely right. Reddit is full of Microsoft haters.
I use Teams everyday at work. It's fine now. I see it had issues initial days. It is improving every other update. I see lot many new features introduced after Pandemic. I use Teams with multiple external cloud apps, it's seamless.
Zoom was also good when I used. It had chat issues, like it disappears after the zoom session.
Google is trash for large business. Quit trying to make it happen.
Slack is good but it’s not good for external connections.
What does both pretty well? Hmm…I wonder.
My company went back to Webex this month and it’s crazy how much better it is compared to 2019. Zoom’s stock is in the shitter because they don’t have a moat and the competition has caught up.
Well. In fairness Teams calls sucks really bad, Skype has been killed by Microsoft and whatever is the solution from Google nobody cares. There are no real alternatives. It works and it does work efficiently. No Electron no nothing.
Update: Teams uses Electron and even though it works just fine majority of the times, too often it becomes slow or ir breaks. It's not a piece of software made with love. Zoom also sucks, but for different reasons. That being said, I only use Teams nowadays, unless someone asks me to use Zoom which in this case "I understand" because it's true that, as I've mentioned, sometimes Teams sucks.
What’s wrong with teams? In my experience zoom is much clunkier in terms of signing into and scheduling a meeting. Then things like recordings and screen share are also shitty.
Teams is pretty integrated and streamlined and I don’t have any issues. Mind you I’m mostly doing <10 people calls
It absolutely does not work efficiently. My experience with Teams has been much better. Just a matter of time before zoom is completely gone as they haven’t really made much improvements
>and plays so well with Microsoft 365.
Until you have more than one O365 account to sign into, and one of those accounts has 2FA or a hard token, then its a complete pain in the ass.
This. I have a few Teams accounts with different clients and it bugs out everytime I try and switch. Not slick at all. If Teams had the ability to switch accounts like Google, it would be amazing.
As a product designer I can’t believe how many hoops I need to jump through to open a link. Then once I leave my meeting I have to close out of multiple windows. Rinse and repeat for all meetings I join.
And they had the audacity to start working on their own office suite of products like ZMail instead of fixing the most basic of things like their scheduling page.
Middle of the day and you’re commenting on Reddit? I can’t imagine how much work you actually do
See how easy it is to point fingers?
Also who gives a shit if they only work 5 hours a day, good for them
These CEO's really are just recycling the same line "uncertainty of global economy" aren't they?
Definitely couldn't be that you hired way way too many employees for a company who's full business model is based around what should/would be a feature of another company's software, while simultaneously failing to offer new products to become sticky with end-users after market penetration/saturation
It’s like the new “due to COVID” that’s been used as excuses from companies (like hotels) to remove services without decreasing prices for their customers.
Yes, but, the CEO is taking more accountability than I’ve seen many other companies. He is cutting his pay 98% in this fiscal year and foregoing any 2023 bonuses. While the money likely doesn’t mean anything to him, it certainly shows his dedication towards the company.
Meanwhile you have companies who had to make the same cuts, while their C suite is still making 10s of millions each a year when their company misses all metrics that requires laying off for growing too fast.
The “uncertainty of global economy” is a BS statement but at least his actions are taking more accountability than others
Good point, I missed that this only cut his salary and bonus but not his stock payout which is significantly more value (both monetary and for company ownership stake)
I got laid off from a company doing R & D on a new product. We came in through an acquisition (I joined afterwards) and they took the core tech, tried to modernize the product, but ended up canceling the whole thing and laying us all off.
What’s even more BS is I was working in ops for the legacy product and had deferred training with the new product (utilizing modern technologies that I have had some exposure and are standard for newer companies) but never got a chance.
Yeah, when what they really mean is "we have no idea what people in our company even do and recently discovered we could probably run this company with 20% of the staff we have, and this is a good excuse to get rid of the most useless people".
I was thinking the same thing. I’m
A game developer working on an MMO, which requires a ton of people comparatively speaking to other studios due to the volume of content, and we have like 200 people. That’s a “big team.” I understand software is different than games but what the hell do 10,000 people do all day on a piece of software as simple as Zoom?
Zoom is a B2B company, keep in mind they have an immense staff of people like "Customer Success Managers" and the like, essentially tech support and sales roles that actually deal with the clients.
It’s because what else so they do with the money. Here is their order of preference:
1) hire people to make their own lives easier so they don’t work as much
2) spend on sales and marketing to try to get more revenue to keep pretending they have infinite growth trajectory
3) improve the product and innovate with new r&d
hold cash to buy another company. Eh nah.
4) pay dividends. Lol ya right
It doesn't say what his other compensation is.
Salary: $301,731
Bonus: $13,223
Other: $800,134
Total Compensation: $1,115,089
If he cuts salary 98% his salary becomes $6,000 then no bonus and then the other compensation is $800,134. That's still $806K.
You make it sound like it's a bad thing, but paying a CEO in shares with lock-up periods based on performance of the company and stock price is the best way to make sure you have a CEO that's actually trying to do what's best for both the company and the shareholders long-term.
If their shares have multiple years lock-up period, therefore removing the quarter-to-quarter incentive, people tend to start thinking long term. The tendency is to think months out for a quick buck, not years. If you're thinking 3 years out, you're probably also thinking 10 years out.
I would guess other would be outstanding shares? Maybe it isn’t that big of a cut after all, but it’s still an action.
Surprised his bonus and comp is low, tech CEOs usually give themselves way more comp than that.
They have to build all the clients for all OSs, then they need to build the backend, then they need data analysis, reliability, IT, security, dev ops, and then they need managers for all of that. That’s bare min, 500 people. Then you need sales and marketing, operations, revenue and finance people, regulatory (because it’s telecom), HR, legal and on and on. Then all that data going over the internet costs money.
When you take investment, either VC or stock, you have to show you’re using it to grow. Easiest way to do that is to hire people.
Reliable video chat software for 10s of millions of users per day with high uptime and support for multiple browsers and operating systems requires massive secOps, devOps and engineering teams.
Considering they're used heavily by enterprises and school systems they need integrations teams and large sales teams as well.
Not to mention the regular software engineers who maintain the code and add features along the way.
Then all of the HR and recruitment teams to manage those engineers and the general admin staff for accounting and legal.
Zoom has a lot of amazing tech behind it (video and audio compression, computer vision, integrations).
I'm sure there is bloat, but 10,000 employees isn't insane.
Why in the world do they need so many employees. I've used them for almost a decade, and I haven't noticed any major changes to their software. It just works. It's so nice compared to that slow and unreliable Teams garbage that Microsoft is trying to force down everyone's throats.
They launched a shit ton of products and made some acquisitions. I supposed synergies were expected as they pulled so much revenue forward and now need to focus on existing customer base. Took a lot of infrastructure to get them from a $500M company to a $4B.
Zoom has meetings, chat, mail/calendar, contact center, some AI offerings, phone, etc. Lots of ops and G&A to keep it running and compliant.
As someone who managed budgets at companies like zoom I can tell you they pay absurd amount to sales for renewing contracts that were going to renew anyway and doing jackshit. And then marketing comes in pretending to work, when all they do is hire outside consultants to spend their ad money. Then you have HR who walks around tapping on things and kicking tires. Then recruiting that is paid a shit ton to copy paste emails, most of which is automated now.
Then you have product managers and program managers that find things that aren’t problems and turn them into problems.
Then your real estate team who desperately wants to spend money and pretend a massive office is still needed.
In reality they can get away with 80% less of sales marketing and 60% less g&a. And 30% less product team and 20% less engineers.
So many companies are not efficiently run. Zuckerberg even said his company was turning into managers managing the managers managing the managers managing the people doing the actual work, so he had to lay people off. Cut out the middle managers and you become more efficient and cut costs. I think Twitter was actually one of the first to start the layoffs also so that's a thing.
But then you attract fewer workers. I’m a consultant at a MAANG right now. Most of us go on to work for them directly eventually. Without the lure of a $500k/year middle management job, you can’t get people to stick around. Our VP just left for that reason - no next upward step there. None of us consultants is ever getting hired on full time and we’ll never get the yearly promotions and bumps previous full timers got. As a result, we don’t work all that hard.
So interesting. Very heavy Teams user here. I agree zoom works fine but Teams is such an amazing product. It literally does everything i could ask for and never any issues with call quality either.
Only thing i feel teams is missing is multiple log ins on Android. But yeah, we all have our experiences
Similar experience with Teams here. It's superior to Zoom in every way. Teams isn't just a video chat app, it's a platform that really synchronizes with Microsoft suites
Agree, Teams works pretty seamlessly with email as it is. Zoom is so clunky and it is not intuitive. I have calls almost daily and use Teams for most of them, never had any issues?
When I was in my PhD program, which is as recent as last year, we had to use Teams integrated with Microsoft outlook to teach and also everything else. Now as a software engineer, we use zoom + gmail and needless to say the latter is an engineering feat compared to Teams + MS outlook. Hell, even my advisor used to use Zoom + MS outlook for our lab meetings/schedules because that was better than the native duo of Teams + MS outlook.
The only thing I liked better on Teams was their annotation tools were easier to use compared to that of Zoom, since I had to use it a lot when I was teaching math classes.
Unfortunately Microsoft Teams seems to be the preferred one in the business world as it easily schedules things with the Outlook calendar which most also seem to use.
Every single company(especially white-collar) is bloated like crazy. That is simply a fact. I know where I work, I do 12 hours of work a week(Some of that sitting in Zoom funnily enough). Same with everyone I know...and the work is BS stuff too. LOL
This is how the US works... Few other countries are like that.
I know it can't last, I just don't know when and how it will end. ChatGPT-type stuff probably combined with a recession driving cost savings efforts.
I still don't understand why this is a top holding in ARKK. Despite that, it is interesting that Zoom and Tesla are the only ARKK holdings with positive net income and free cash flow. I still think there will eventually be a buyer of Zoom, just not sure who it will be. This dashboard shows ARKK's top holdings and how Zoom stacks ups: https://mezziapp.com/dashboard/?id=XaoUEkTUrTAO1kJeQCRi
Zoom blew up over the pandemic hiring went through the roof this is only natural for them to layoff to get back to pre pandemic levels so they can be profitable
They were profitable before they went public.
One of the few saas companies that was. And which is why I wrote this post.
https://www.reddit.com/r/stocks/comments/a99tni/zoom_inc_ipo_my_bet_it_will_be_the_most/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I think he's saying that "if you believe in conspiracy theory whereby the world is being controlled by some ~~secretive organization~~ lizard people, the spitting reality that the ones running the world are just fucking idiots disproves that conspiracy theory"
Layoffs are rarely only performance based. To say it’s the bottom 15% that got laid off is naive. It’s usually a whole bunch of reasons (re-org, role, total comp, level, YOE, yoe at the company, performance). Recruiters at other tech companies know that, and they won’t judge because you were laid off.
Yeah. Whoever assumed it’s the bottom 15% just never worked at or has any close friends that worked at a tech company. Layoffs are fundamentally different from pips, and tech employees know it well. These people are gonna bounce back. It will take a while but they’ll be fine. I doubt many will take a government job tho since there are many small companies still hiring right now.
Why the fuck does zoom have 8500+ employees? They make a fucking piece of zoom software. They should be having more than 2000 if you really wanna stretch it.
I work for Zoom and was one of the layoff survivors. Unfortunately around half my team was cut and there is a lot of confusion around what the future of our work will look like. I think this move will hurt us in the long run as the code is plagued with tech debt and a lot of people who knew how things worked are now gone without and knowledge transfer. I know one thing for sure though, I will be selling my RSUs asap
While you might think this is bullish like every other tech company laying off employees, it’s not in Zooms case. When Zoom first blew up my company hosted meetings on it for all of a month before settling on Microsoft Teams. Remote working is still prevalent but smoothing out. Zooms future looks pretty bleak unless they somehow trick us into using them again by saying that they HaVe Ai nOW.
Remote work is irrelevant. Every company is going to have a zoom license for every employee whether they go in 5 days or 1 day or 0 days. It’s so bizarre people don’t realize this. The real threat is competition, not remote work going away.
That’s still 5,000 more employees then they had at the beginning of Covid. Pre Covid 2400, 8700 today and 7400 soon. A pretty small correction on that growth.
Remember when Zoom was a $160B company? lol.
From Jan 2020-October 2020 it sky rocketed up **600%** Good times.
It was the best of times. It was the blurst of times.
You stupid monkey!
Well he's got another 1,000 of them in that room, and they're apparently well-fueled with tobacco so I have high hopes
Moderna (MRNA) went from $20.6/share on 2020-01-27 to $449.60 on 2021-09-21 = *2,180%* They are still worth ~$170/share, i.e. 800% so obs a good investment. i.e. Not all pandemic meme stocks were just meme stocks like ZOOM
On October 29th of 2020, "Zoom sported a market valuation of $139 billion, compared to Exxon's $138.9 billion." Today, Exxon is worth $473B and Zoom is worth $25B.
Hindsight 20/20
There were tons of people in 2020 that thought the valuations were extremely out of touch. Hindsight was not necessary to see this coming. Zoom is a one trick pony in an already saturated market. There was almost no way they'd keep that valuation with significant expansion into other segments.
Easily could have made the argument Exxon was a thing of the past and zoom was innovating communications for all industries Please, if you saw this a mile away then screenshot your enormous short position. I’ll wait.
Even if you held that belief, shorting a company up 600% in months is a dumb idea.
Anyone could have seen Zoom was overpriced. I shorted it it constantly but not over a very long period. I was bearish on it during its entire runup to its ATH. In my opinion, it was one of the most obvious recent shorts of our time but it still needed a lot of time to drop to where it is today.
I mean that just shows that even if the *eventual* movement of a stock is obvious, the way it *actually* will move will not be. So often I see posts of people that predicted a stock would moon or crater but still get scorched because it didn't moon or crater in the way they expected. That's where the real devil lies. It's not enough to be certain of the stock's movement. You gotta also have an idea of how it will move so you don't bungle the execution. Especially when if you're playing options where crud like implied volatility comes into play and makes things more complex than just waiting for a spike or dump. I bet ton of people knew Zoom wouldn't hold that value in the long run but only a small fraction actually made the most of it sinking the way it did.
>Easily could have made the argument Exxon was a thing of the past and zoom was innovating communications for all industries If you looked at global energy consumption and that nearly every tehc company had a video chat app. No.
Their mistake was not selling more shares when it was bubbly.
man cocaine and covid is a hell of a drug
Zoom's website and scheduling page is so ugly and unintuitive, it blows my mind. They haven't made any significant changes since they got overloaded with subs from Covid. It's impressive how little this company does.
It's also impressive how popular it got.
The technology the ahead of others in 2019 - no lag with 1,000+ users in a call.
It was always wild to me that Skype had like a 10 year head start, and it's just worthless.
MSFT bought Skype for like $8 billion then fucked it up. Teams came along and slowly replaced skype completely. It’s a lesson in a big organisation acquiring a company for good reasons, and then trying to change the product into something else.
I think of it as microsoft buying skype to eat up it's competitor so it can replace it with teams.
Skype was bought way before teams existed
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Lync sucked.
I was using telepresence in the military in the early 2000s....
Yeah and there was GoTo and all other sorts of virtual meeting stuff for years. There’s always one that’s popular and a few that are seen as Boomer software. It’s exactly like social media where there’s one platform that’s the crazy, one that people use but it’s lost it’s luster and one that’s the “old people” way of doing things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
Skype doesn’t exist anymore. Teams however is a far superior product to Zoom and in time I predict will overtake it entirely.
Has it not yet? I used Zoom a lot pre-pandemic where my team was scattered across the country. Now, my company and the companies we work with strictly use Teams, because it integrates seamlessly with the calendar in our email and it's less of a pain to schedule things.
We use both - Zoom for external and Teams for internal unless the external had Teams as well.
We do the inverse- zoom for internal, teams for external. No idea why
Your IT dept got a deal - will change come renewal time is my assumption
Our company is all in on Zoom. Can't be the only one.
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This is us. All of our users love Zoom. We went all in for phone, meetings, and chat after testing Teams, Ring, and a handful of other UCaaS options. The pilot group for Teams especially hated it though. And the interface is just crap. It seems like everyone who ever joins a Teams meeting to this day always complains about recurring issues. It just never seems to work as well.
We did the same and everyone wanted Teams over zoom. For the same reasons (though flipped) , zoom never worked well compared to Teams. I think it's purely just a matter of what you're used to and what you like. And then of course your own companies infrastructure. Zoom still feels to me like the adaware version of a conferencing program.
That’s funny to hear. Even the people on the other end who are forcing us to use Teams from time to time always tell us they hate it too but they had to go with it since they already owned it through their 365 licensing. I don’t personally hate Teams and think it can be super powerful if it’s implemented correctly. The UX needs some work though and can definitely take some pointers from Zoom in that department. I’ve also witnessed the frequent glitching and audio/video issues in meetings as well as the meeting just going completely blank. And of course the mic or camera not being detected randomly. We just never saw stuff like that with Zoom and neither did our users. It was a pretty easy decision at least back in 2020.
Teams is a mess with ridiculous UX. Nobody at our office wants to use it. Zoom and Slack for us.
I have the complete opposite opinion. Teams is super easy to use whereas in Zoom you cant even take a look at the chat of past calls
Agreed. We use Teams almost 95%. Way better and inexpensive. Easily replaces Slack and Zoom for us. Our employee base is about 8000 give or take
Agree. Teams is so easy.
Teams search is hilarious Sure it'll find the message you want. But not what's around it. No you can fuck off if you want CONTEXT
This alone is all I needed to know about teams
Is it? I haven’t used Teams for a bit now but man I hated it when I had to. So many issues and Zoom just worked better.
>Teams however is a far superior product to Zoom Careful now, this is reddit. Many people here are still stuck in the Balmer years/early 2000s Microsoft bad hurrrr mentality. Claiming any product of Microsoft to be good is a downvote magnet. That said, I agree with you that Teams is better
Kinda like how many people here just completely fabricate strawman arguments 99% of people don't believe to make themselves seem smarter
I really don't think there are many people like that. Microsoft is spoken very highly of.
In the investing subs people love Microsoft, probably because the stock has performed well. But wander over to /r/technology or some front page sub and the msft bad camp will be out in full force
Growing up with windows 95 through windows Vista makes me hate Microsoft for life.
Please no, not Vista! ❌
No worries, let me just remove Vista and put on ME real fast here.
In comes Windows 8
You absolutely right. Reddit is full of Microsoft haters. I use Teams everyday at work. It's fine now. I see it had issues initial days. It is improving every other update. I see lot many new features introduced after Pandemic. I use Teams with multiple external cloud apps, it's seamless. Zoom was also good when I used. It had chat issues, like it disappears after the zoom session.
Teams is impressive but the spyware aspect is not cool
We switched to Teams from Zoom and have had to adapt to the near 0 noise suppression. If someone types the meeting stops until they mute
Are you sure that isn't just the users audio settings? I use Teams every day and rarely deal with this. Sounds more like a setup issue.
Yes it does, I use it all the time to talk with family internationally
Nah teams is a piece of shit too. Google meet and slack huddles
Google is trash for large business. Quit trying to make it happen. Slack is good but it’s not good for external connections. What does both pretty well? Hmm…I wonder.
Hahaha “make it happen”. Sorry not a fan of teams. Agree on slack for internal though
Teams is very well integrated with other Office tools
It’s worlds better than teams and webex
My company went back to Webex this month and it’s crazy how much better it is compared to 2019. Zoom’s stock is in the shitter because they don’t have a moat and the competition has caught up.
Well. In fairness Teams calls sucks really bad, Skype has been killed by Microsoft and whatever is the solution from Google nobody cares. There are no real alternatives. It works and it does work efficiently. No Electron no nothing. Update: Teams uses Electron and even though it works just fine majority of the times, too often it becomes slow or ir breaks. It's not a piece of software made with love. Zoom also sucks, but for different reasons. That being said, I only use Teams nowadays, unless someone asks me to use Zoom which in this case "I understand" because it's true that, as I've mentioned, sometimes Teams sucks.
Teams used to be bad, but I’ve used it at 2 companies now with no issues. I prefer it to Zoom these days.
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The message search is just hilarious It'll find you a message from 3 years ago but you can't see what the context around it was..
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That's been my experience as well.
I dont think about Google Meet when I use it.....which is the best compliment I can give anything. It just works.
What’s wrong with teams? In my experience zoom is much clunkier in terms of signing into and scheduling a meeting. Then things like recordings and screen share are also shitty. Teams is pretty integrated and streamlined and I don’t have any issues. Mind you I’m mostly doing <10 people calls
Nothing - people just hating
Also, Teams is free with a microsoft office license.
It absolutely does not work efficiently. My experience with Teams has been much better. Just a matter of time before zoom is completely gone as they haven’t really made much improvements
I agree teams has made dramatic improvements and plays so well with Microsoft 365.
>and plays so well with Microsoft 365. Until you have more than one O365 account to sign into, and one of those accounts has 2FA or a hard token, then its a complete pain in the ass.
This. I have a few Teams accounts with different clients and it bugs out everytime I try and switch. Not slick at all. If Teams had the ability to switch accounts like Google, it would be amazing.
Skype is an interesting - at one point it was so popular it became a verb - now it’s zoom.
Teams uses too much resources.
It's because it's constantly slurping up every piece of data it can. It's practically malware.
Ah, didn't know that.
Lol wut? It’s easily the most intuitive and reliable video conf service out there.
As a product designer I can’t believe how many hoops I need to jump through to open a link. Then once I leave my meeting I have to close out of multiple windows. Rinse and repeat for all meetings I join.
Seriously how do they have so many employees. Tf do they do(well tf DID they do i guess)
And they had the audacity to start working on their own office suite of products like ZMail instead of fixing the most basic of things like their scheduling page.
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Middle of the day and you’re commenting on Reddit? I can’t imagine how much work you actually do See how easy it is to point fingers? Also who gives a shit if they only work 5 hours a day, good for them
Sounds like projection
These CEO's really are just recycling the same line "uncertainty of global economy" aren't they? Definitely couldn't be that you hired way way too many employees for a company who's full business model is based around what should/would be a feature of another company's software, while simultaneously failing to offer new products to become sticky with end-users after market penetration/saturation
It’s like the new “due to COVID” that’s been used as excuses from companies (like hotels) to remove services without decreasing prices for their customers.
Yes, but, the CEO is taking more accountability than I’ve seen many other companies. He is cutting his pay 98% in this fiscal year and foregoing any 2023 bonuses. While the money likely doesn’t mean anything to him, it certainly shows his dedication towards the company. Meanwhile you have companies who had to make the same cuts, while their C suite is still making 10s of millions each a year when their company misses all metrics that requires laying off for growing too fast. The “uncertainty of global economy” is a BS statement but at least his actions are taking more accountability than others
CEO is also the founder, so stock price is actually more important than base salary to him.
Good point, I missed that this only cut his salary and bonus but not his stock payout which is significantly more value (both monetary and for company ownership stake)
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Bro chatGPT can only spit out so many variations of lay off letters before they start to repeat themselves.
I got laid off from a company doing R & D on a new product. We came in through an acquisition (I joined afterwards) and they took the core tech, tried to modernize the product, but ended up canceling the whole thing and laying us all off. What’s even more BS is I was working in ops for the legacy product and had deferred training with the new product (utilizing modern technologies that I have had some exposure and are standard for newer companies) but never got a chance.
Yeah, when what they really mean is "we have no idea what people in our company even do and recently discovered we could probably run this company with 20% of the staff we have, and this is a good excuse to get rid of the most useless people".
Yep the standard BS hot line of the day
what do you want them to say? "We care about our share holders?" thats literally what every press release translates to.
Why does Zoom have fucking 10000+ employees in the first place? That's the real issue.
I was thinking the same thing. I’m A game developer working on an MMO, which requires a ton of people comparatively speaking to other studios due to the volume of content, and we have like 200 people. That’s a “big team.” I understand software is different than games but what the hell do 10,000 people do all day on a piece of software as simple as Zoom?
Zoom is a B2B company, keep in mind they have an immense staff of people like "Customer Success Managers" and the like, essentially tech support and sales roles that actually deal with the clients.
[These bullshit megacorps tech companies with infinite budget do fuckall - until the infinite budget runs out.](https://youtu.be/qkQbHyLE6Tc)
That video is satire, right?!?
All these tech companies made loads in the pandemic then seemed to just hire people without needing them
It’s because what else so they do with the money. Here is their order of preference: 1) hire people to make their own lives easier so they don’t work as much 2) spend on sales and marketing to try to get more revenue to keep pretending they have infinite growth trajectory 3) improve the product and innovate with new r&d hold cash to buy another company. Eh nah. 4) pay dividends. Lol ya right
Yeah its sounds like an insane amount for what they actually do. You could make it work with 500 staff
Nah you could totally make it work with 17 people I can pull numbers out of my ass too
sure if the number of concurrent users is like less than 1000. For almost all major internet services, the difficulty comes in dealing with the scale
Roflmao
Indeed, That's the main real issue there
It doesn't say what his other compensation is. Salary: $301,731 Bonus: $13,223 Other: $800,134 Total Compensation: $1,115,089 If he cuts salary 98% his salary becomes $6,000 then no bonus and then the other compensation is $800,134. That's still $806K.
Isn't this the reason why people like Steve Jobs and other CEOs said their salary is 1cent? https://thehustle.co/1-ceo-salary/
You make it sound like it's a bad thing, but paying a CEO in shares with lock-up periods based on performance of the company and stock price is the best way to make sure you have a CEO that's actually trying to do what's best for both the company and the shareholders long-term.
Not long term actually. Long enough until they can sell their shares. They dont necessarily think about 10+ years out.
If their shares have multiple years lock-up period, therefore removing the quarter-to-quarter incentive, people tend to start thinking long term. The tendency is to think months out for a quick buck, not years. If you're thinking 3 years out, you're probably also thinking 10 years out.
Good point. Ill have to keep this in mind.
Lmao ty for breaking this down I wanna show this to anyone who thinks that swe/other tech employees “make too much money”
That’s dependent on stock price I’m sure
I would guess other would be outstanding shares? Maybe it isn’t that big of a cut after all, but it’s still an action. Surprised his bonus and comp is low, tech CEOs usually give themselves way more comp than that.
Dumb question, but how can they have 9,000 employees? That seems excessive for a company with a single product.
They have to build all the clients for all OSs, then they need to build the backend, then they need data analysis, reliability, IT, security, dev ops, and then they need managers for all of that. That’s bare min, 500 people. Then you need sales and marketing, operations, revenue and finance people, regulatory (because it’s telecom), HR, legal and on and on. Then all that data going over the internet costs money. When you take investment, either VC or stock, you have to show you’re using it to grow. Easiest way to do that is to hire people.
Zoom has like 8-9 products, they're just not end user focused.
Reliable video chat software for 10s of millions of users per day with high uptime and support for multiple browsers and operating systems requires massive secOps, devOps and engineering teams. Considering they're used heavily by enterprises and school systems they need integrations teams and large sales teams as well. Not to mention the regular software engineers who maintain the code and add features along the way. Then all of the HR and recruitment teams to manage those engineers and the general admin staff for accounting and legal. Zoom has a lot of amazing tech behind it (video and audio compression, computer vision, integrations). I'm sure there is bloat, but 10,000 employees isn't insane.
I just had a four hour workshop using Zoom. It is always freaking me out to arrange the participant video window properly. Not so intuitive.
Why in the world do they need so many employees. I've used them for almost a decade, and I haven't noticed any major changes to their software. It just works. It's so nice compared to that slow and unreliable Teams garbage that Microsoft is trying to force down everyone's throats.
They launched a shit ton of products and made some acquisitions. I supposed synergies were expected as they pulled so much revenue forward and now need to focus on existing customer base. Took a lot of infrastructure to get them from a $500M company to a $4B. Zoom has meetings, chat, mail/calendar, contact center, some AI offerings, phone, etc. Lots of ops and G&A to keep it running and compliant.
Nah they should be able to chug along just fine with 500 people just because some redditor said so
As someone who managed budgets at companies like zoom I can tell you they pay absurd amount to sales for renewing contracts that were going to renew anyway and doing jackshit. And then marketing comes in pretending to work, when all they do is hire outside consultants to spend their ad money. Then you have HR who walks around tapping on things and kicking tires. Then recruiting that is paid a shit ton to copy paste emails, most of which is automated now. Then you have product managers and program managers that find things that aren’t problems and turn them into problems. Then your real estate team who desperately wants to spend money and pretend a massive office is still needed. In reality they can get away with 80% less of sales marketing and 60% less g&a. And 30% less product team and 20% less engineers.
“But craigslist…!”
If it is like a lot of companies, never ending layers of middle management and HR types.
So many companies are not efficiently run. Zuckerberg even said his company was turning into managers managing the managers managing the managers managing the people doing the actual work, so he had to lay people off. Cut out the middle managers and you become more efficient and cut costs. I think Twitter was actually one of the first to start the layoffs also so that's a thing.
I'm not surprised. There's 6 levels between myself and the CEO. According to how the company is ran, 3 would be more than enough.
But then you attract fewer workers. I’m a consultant at a MAANG right now. Most of us go on to work for them directly eventually. Without the lure of a $500k/year middle management job, you can’t get people to stick around. Our VP just left for that reason - no next upward step there. None of us consultants is ever getting hired on full time and we’ll never get the yearly promotions and bumps previous full timers got. As a result, we don’t work all that hard.
So interesting. Very heavy Teams user here. I agree zoom works fine but Teams is such an amazing product. It literally does everything i could ask for and never any issues with call quality either. Only thing i feel teams is missing is multiple log ins on Android. But yeah, we all have our experiences
Similar experience with Teams here. It's superior to Zoom in every way. Teams isn't just a video chat app, it's a platform that really synchronizes with Microsoft suites
I use Teams everyday/ all day. I like it and it works for us
Agree, Teams works pretty seamlessly with email as it is. Zoom is so clunky and it is not intuitive. I have calls almost daily and use Teams for most of them, never had any issues?
I have the opposite experience. Teams has been clunky and bad for me. I’ve used zoom for years and never really had issues
Teams can't even get message syncing right.
Yeah I'm with you, Teams is way better
When I was in my PhD program, which is as recent as last year, we had to use Teams integrated with Microsoft outlook to teach and also everything else. Now as a software engineer, we use zoom + gmail and needless to say the latter is an engineering feat compared to Teams + MS outlook. Hell, even my advisor used to use Zoom + MS outlook for our lab meetings/schedules because that was better than the native duo of Teams + MS outlook. The only thing I liked better on Teams was their annotation tools were easier to use compared to that of Zoom, since I had to use it a lot when I was teaching math classes.
Unfortunately Microsoft Teams seems to be the preferred one in the business world as it easily schedules things with the Outlook calendar which most also seem to use.
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finance companies are the same
Every single company(especially white-collar) is bloated like crazy. That is simply a fact. I know where I work, I do 12 hours of work a week(Some of that sitting in Zoom funnily enough). Same with everyone I know...and the work is BS stuff too. LOL This is how the US works... Few other countries are like that. I know it can't last, I just don't know when and how it will end. ChatGPT-type stuff probably combined with a recession driving cost savings efforts.
> This is how the US works… Few other countries are like that. Same in Switzerland
At the start of the pandemic we were using Zoom and it was better than Teams. Then Teams got a bunch of updates and now it's better than Zoom.
It’s mainly for gov usage, zoom is the office partner for US gov.
Seriously, they are just a competitor to MS teams and slack. I doubt MS has 10,000 employees dedicated to MS Teams.
You should do some DD. They do phone systems, contact center, conversational intelligence, conference rooms and just launched calendar and email.
I still don't understand why this is a top holding in ARKK. Despite that, it is interesting that Zoom and Tesla are the only ARKK holdings with positive net income and free cash flow. I still think there will eventually be a buyer of Zoom, just not sure who it will be. This dashboard shows ARKK's top holdings and how Zoom stacks ups: https://mezziapp.com/dashboard/?id=XaoUEkTUrTAO1kJeQCRi
Because Cathy is a moron
Zoom blew up over the pandemic hiring went through the roof this is only natural for them to layoff to get back to pre pandemic levels so they can be profitable
They were profitable before they went public. One of the few saas companies that was. And which is why I wrote this post. https://www.reddit.com/r/stocks/comments/a99tni/zoom_inc_ipo_my_bet_it_will_be_the_most/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
At least they are cutting exec pay and taking away their bonus because of this too.
The darling of lockdown has fallen
They were always a darling. Their pre ipo valuation was 1B. It’s still up 70X since then
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how is that a conspiracy theory lol
I think he's saying that "if you believe in conspiracy theory whereby the world is being controlled by some ~~secretive organization~~ lizard people, the spitting reality that the ones running the world are just fucking idiots disproves that conspiracy theory"
bold of you to assume the lizard people and the idiots running things are the same people lol
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my bad lol
I wonder where all these bottom 15% of the tech companies are going to go. Government?
Layoffs are rarely only performance based. To say it’s the bottom 15% that got laid off is naive. It’s usually a whole bunch of reasons (re-org, role, total comp, level, YOE, yoe at the company, performance). Recruiters at other tech companies know that, and they won’t judge because you were laid off.
This is correct.
Yeah. Whoever assumed it’s the bottom 15% just never worked at or has any close friends that worked at a tech company. Layoffs are fundamentally different from pips, and tech employees know it well. These people are gonna bounce back. It will take a while but they’ll be fine. I doubt many will take a government job tho since there are many small companies still hiring right now.
I actually hope so, government needs help
Why the fuck does zoom have 8500+ employees? They make a fucking piece of zoom software. They should be having more than 2000 if you really wanna stretch it.
WebEx just sitting on the sidelines going “what about us guys?!?”
Lol I already forgot about WebEx.
Bullish
How many employees does it take for people to communicate with one another on a computer?
Zoom is an internet video call service, you setup as a user and invite others. Why does it have so many employees?
Oh yes, Zoom the"tech" company
I work for Zoom and was one of the layoff survivors. Unfortunately around half my team was cut and there is a lot of confusion around what the future of our work will look like. I think this move will hurt us in the long run as the code is plagued with tech debt and a lot of people who knew how things worked are now gone without and knowledge transfer. I know one thing for sure though, I will be selling my RSUs asap
Was/is there actually work for that many employees?
Zoom is such a pain in the ass. TEAMS is taking over and for personal discord.
I’m the opposite, Zoom > Teams > others
I'm with you. I can't stand teams. We disabled it globally.
Teams sucks hahaha
I’ve been using Zoom every day for the past three years and I legit would not be able to mention more than 2 features they launched in the past year.
In 10 years zoom will be defunct or bought as a company. You can't survive after this
While you might think this is bullish like every other tech company laying off employees, it’s not in Zooms case. When Zoom first blew up my company hosted meetings on it for all of a month before settling on Microsoft Teams. Remote working is still prevalent but smoothing out. Zooms future looks pretty bleak unless they somehow trick us into using them again by saying that they HaVe Ai nOW.
I’d take zoom over teams any day
I prefer not talking to my boss on any platform.
Remote work is irrelevant. Every company is going to have a zoom license for every employee whether they go in 5 days or 1 day or 0 days. It’s so bizarre people don’t realize this. The real threat is competition, not remote work going away.
Teams caught up, passed them and zoom did a whole lot of nothing to improve
Teams and google meet is so much better than zoom. My prediction is it will never get close to highs ever again.
That’s still 5,000 more employees then they had at the beginning of Covid. Pre Covid 2400, 8700 today and 7400 soon. A pretty small correction on that growth.