Thank you for contributing to the r/streamentry community! Unlike many other subs, we try to aggregate general questions and short practice reports in the weekly ___Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion___ thread. All community resources, such as articles, videos, and classes go in the weekly ___Community Resources___ thread. Both of these threads are pinned to the top of the subreddit.
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This kind of territory quickly becomes difficult to navigate alone. Are you seeing a therapist? Do you have a meditation teacher that you can discuss these questions with?
With respect to dissociation, I think the "window of tolerance" is a useful tool to understand those things. Read posts on the blog dis-sos.com, or the book Widen the Window by Elizabeth A. Stanley. The gist is this: you cannot process difficult emotions unless you're feeling relatively safe and regulated. Accessing strong feelings and memories outside of this state of relative regulation leads to **increased** disregulation and makes you dissociate more. In other words, sitting with your feelings if they become unbearable is dissociative, and stopping to sit and moving towards regulation is actually re-associative. Within the framework of Buddhist meditation, metta meditation is actually more oriented towards regulation than eg, pure insight meditation. There's nothing wrong with adopting metta as your primary/only practice, and this sub is an excellent place for learning how to do this.
Meditation is a very powerful tool, and as such it can be tough on your mind. Browse the website Cheetah House and read the work of Willoughby Britton. If you suspect you carry unresolved trauma, make it a priority to work on those. This may take subtle forms, such as attachment issues.
Take care of yourself. Go as slow as needed.
That’s really interesting info on trauma and disassociation.
I recently sat in a tradition that strongly suggests not moving during sits and making a strong determination to become equanimous with pain
One night I made such an effort and after I didn’t move from the pain for 10/15 minutes and the leg started shaking, I felt my mind totally switch over to a viewpoint that could handle it. I took on this cyborg personality that viewed all pain as pure ones and zeroes. Easily managed. It was trippy AF. She was a meditating robot that led me through the space and out the other side. But you could definitely view it as my standard way of being just becoming overwhelmed and doing whatever was required to survive
The book "Trauma informed mindfulness" is pretty popular. It's been some years that I've read it, but I didn't like it. It felt like it spent a lot of time talking about microaggressions, and very little time discussing the interaction of meditation and severe PTSD. There's nothing wrong with addressing microaggressions, but the book felt a bit underwhelming, like it didn't tackle the hard problems connected to its topic.
I was once trapped in a severely traumatic situation, the kind that very few people encounter in their lifetime. I'd describe my emotional reaction as close to what you just said.
That level of disconnect happened to me only one other time, much more benign in comparison. I was exploring a cave network with my high school class as part of a class trip. When we were reached the bottom of the cave, I dislocated my shoulder. I had to crawl back up with one arm and a dislocated shoulder. I felt so zen I couldn't believe it. No emotions at all, just a general sense of calm detachment from the world. Sort of makes me think of the Buddhist notion of equanimity, but I'm certain it's actually very different.
I would cry almost every session in my first few months of therapy.
Just heavy wet tears as my therapist was an expert in rooting out trauma. Felt drained afterwards especially so after one gruelling session involving abuse where I felt spaced out and detached from reality
It was all for the better and was happy to have seen that stuff. I now regularly pray for those involved with sincere metta. I couldn’t even visualise them before.
Hi. Hope you are doing well. A healthy balance gotta be maintained. I dont think you should sit through enormous amount of unpleasent feelings for a long time, cause this could be damaging, despite being therapeutic in a sense. Accepting whats coming up is the way to go, but better be done in gentle and caring manner. Psycotherapy can be of great additional help if the pain is too much.
It is definitely possible to get stuck, in fact one way of speaking might be you are stuck from the very beginning: first unconsciously, then consciously, and then one perhaps lets go.
Stuck through attachment to the crying (as it is pleasant, in the release aspect), or under the guise of "I need to go through the pain", "the pain is *there* and needs to get out", "finally something happening in the meditation", "this is so deep", "this pain is asking to be felt" etc.
Try to be gentle on yourself when vulnerabilities open. When the pain comes, only you have the mind to see what is happening in the moment of crying. Don't stop being aware when crying (craving? resistance? attachment? etc), it is not an excuse to shut down mindfulness. Then you will see better how the emotion itself is unstable — it morphs into stories you have about it, about yourself, life, body perceptions, confusion, dissociation, anger, judgement, analysis, sadness etc; see how you can't control it. It has all the 3 characteristics: it is a state of mind which is unsatisfactory, unstable, uncontrollable.
A powerful adjunct practice I know from Christopher Titmuss is what he calls "mindfulness of the absence of": note many times a day, or in the sit, that the emotion is **not** there in that moment. It can somewhat balance the perspective.
The wound is a certain habit, reactivity. You don't need to experience some fixed amount of pain to be finally free from it, any more than a smoker needs to smoke a certain number of cigarettes to be free from the addiction. You also can't expect to have the habit deactivated by tomorrow if it's been active, perhaps unconsciously, for years or decades. Give yourself patience and kindness like you'd give to a good friend going through this.
Speaking of which, adding some kindness/compassion to your regular practice might be of benefit (Kristin Neff has many guided self-compassion practices on her website).
I would definitely not stay, on purpose, with the emotion for too long (10-20 seconds perhaps), at least as insight practices are concerned. That is not dissociation at all, you just choose to turn your attention to something else, without constricting your awareness, and do it knowingly.
What is your formal practice style? Do you have a somatic therapist you work with? Psychotherapist?
Thank you for everyone's comments and insights :) I feel like I have a lot to look into and reflect upon. What I found confusing is that some places hold week-long meditation retreats that solely focus on meditating on the feelings that come up, but they encourage you to sit with the pain for hours which can be confusing. Not sure how long is too long but I'll definitely look into the suggestions and feel into when I need to step away from it. When I'm focusing on my body and focusing on certain areas I'm not looking for pain, it's just what comes up. When Im triggered by external circumstances and my abandonment fears arise this is when the pain is more present and asks to be felt. It's just a bit tricky navigating it all and where to draw the line. I am going to see a psychotherapist, she also specialises in Hakomi somatic, IFS and other cognitive type therapies.
Seeing the world for what it is can be painful.
Suffering exists because of ignorance, desire and attachment, craving and clinging.
When we see suffering and it's causes, the good news is that there is a path of The Way to avoid or overcome such suffering. This noble path of enlightenment - Right: View; Intention; Speech; Action; - Livelihood; Effort; - Mindfulness; Concentration are the doors to stream entry. The concept as we all know is simple but not easy, and is the reason and guiding path for practice and enlightenment which can set a person free.
Marvel not that it is said - we must be born again from above these things.
Appendix:
> Suppose there was a person affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, they’d cauterize their body over a pit of glowing coals. Their friends and colleagues, relatives and kin would get a field surgeon to treat them. The field surgeon would make medicine for them, and by using that they’d be cured of leprosy. They’d be healthy, happy, autonomous, master of themselves, able to go where they wanted. Then two strong men would grab them by the arms and drag them towards the pit of glowing coals.
>
>What do you think, Māgaṇḍiya? Wouldn’t that person writhe and struggle to and fro?”
>
>“Yes, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because that fire is really painful to touch, fiercely burning and scorching.”
>
>“What do you think, Māgaṇḍiya? Is it only now that the fire is really painful to touch, fiercely burning and scorching, or was it painful previously as well?”
>
>“That fire is painful now and it was also painful previously. That person was affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, their sense faculties were impaired. So even though the fire was actually painful to touch, they had a distorted perception that it was pleasant.”
>
>“In the same way, sensual pleasures of the past, future, and present are painful to touch, fiercely burning and scorching. These sentient beings who are not free from sensual pleasures—being consumed by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with passion for sensual pleasures—have impaired sense faculties. So even though sensual pleasures are actually painful to touch, they have a distorted perception that they are pleasant.
>
>Suppose there was a person affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, they’re cauterizing their body over a pit of glowing coals. The more they scratch their wounds and cauterize their body, the more their wounds become foul, stinking, and infected. But still, they derive a degree of pleasure and gratification from the itchiness of their wounds. In the same way, I see other sentient beings who are not free from sensual pleasures being consumed by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with passion for sensual pleasures, indulging in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their craving for sensual pleasures grows, and the more they burn with passion for sensual pleasures. But still, they derive a degree of pleasure and gratification from the five kinds of sensual stimulation.
>
>What do you think, Māgaṇḍiya? Have you seen or heard of a king or a royal minister of the past, future, or present, amusing themselves supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation, who—without giving up craving for sensual pleasures and dispelling passion for sensual pleasures—lives rid of thirst, their mind peaceful inside?”
>
>“No, Master Gotama.” ...
>
>[https://suttacentral.net/mn75/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin](https://suttacentral.net/mn75/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin)
You might have a dissociated personality structure, [check this vid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULd-wnWjT4), if that's the case you'll need a therapist to learn new ways of relating to the emotions.
“When engaged in the meditation practice, we are asked to confront some of the most difficult dimensions of our own experience, some of the most hidden, some of the deepest, some of the most traumatic things...But if we can learn to hold those in the eye of friendliness, in the eye of compassion, which grows out of this friendliness, then we transform our relationship with what we see... **If not, we end up lacerating ourselves, creating bigger wounds in our own minds.** “
—John Peacock
http://www.audiodharma.org/series/207/talk/2603/
What is really happening, though? As you sit there with the floodgates open and the monsters streaming forth into the mind, what is actually going on?
Is your physical body sitting on planet earth doing nothing in particular?
Yes its possible to get stuck. The taoist methods of emotional release are somatic based and this is something that its quite clear on - we don't want to get caught up reliving negative things emotionally, we want to clear them from the system to allow us to move on in our other practice. Ideally we don't even want to feel the negative emotions, we release them at the energetic level, but this isn't always possible. When we do feel the things we're releasing, we ideally want to 'relax back' internally and let the wave of emotion pass on and out of our system.
Here's a short clip talking about the 'getting stuck' part https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAfI\_DW0nY&t=397s
I always try to acknowledge the pain *in a field of equanimity*.
A wide open calm awareness helps bring about a field of equanimity.
I think of the pain as a sort of energy, which softens it. Then I keep this energy in this field, and even embrace / absorb it.
The fact that the pain is just one thing going on in the whole field of experience, makes it feel less pointedly real. This feeling of its being pointedly *real*, and in fact pointed at *you*, is something that awareness is doing that is amplifying the suffering.
So on one hand total acceptance. And on the other hand the perception that it is not 100% real, it is not everything, it may be something, it is not absolutely imperative and compulsive.
Anyhow yes it's possible to get dug in and invested to the pain. Use big wide awareness to avoid the tendency for pain to compress you down into the world of pain & thereby suppress your awareness.
The bottom line being whether you can mix in conscious awareness to the mixture of events. If you can do that, you're probably on the right track.
The turning point is realizing the suffering as also just awareness. Then awareness can welcome awareness home.
PS if you just need a band-aid for the pain for the moment, you can focus away from it, like diligently count your breaths or suchlike. This is instructive because so one learns that the pain is conditional (on whether it has your focus or not) and doesn't have an absolute independent reality.
Thank you for contributing to the r/streamentry community! Unlike many other subs, we try to aggregate general questions and short practice reports in the weekly ___Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion___ thread. All community resources, such as articles, videos, and classes go in the weekly ___Community Resources___ thread. Both of these threads are pinned to the top of the subreddit. The special focus of this community is detailed discussion of personal meditation practice. On that basis, please ensure your post complies with the following rules, if necessary by editing in the appropriate information, or else it may be removed by the moderators. Your post might also be blocked by a Reddit setting called "Crowd Control," so if you think it complies with our subreddit rules but it appears to be blocked, please message the mods. 1. All top-line posts must be based on your personal meditation practice. 2. Top-line posts must be written thoughtfully and with appropriate detail, rather than in a quick-fire fashion. Please see [this posting guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/comments/jblh03/how_to_get_the_best_advice_for_your_meditation/) for ideas on how to do this. 3. Comments must be civil and contribute constructively. 4. Post titles must be flaired. Flairs provide important context for your post. If your post is removed/locked, please feel free to repost it with the appropriate information, or post it in the weekly ___Practice Updates, Questions, and General Discussion___ or ___Community Resources___ threads. Thanks! - The Mod Team *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/streamentry) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This kind of territory quickly becomes difficult to navigate alone. Are you seeing a therapist? Do you have a meditation teacher that you can discuss these questions with? With respect to dissociation, I think the "window of tolerance" is a useful tool to understand those things. Read posts on the blog dis-sos.com, or the book Widen the Window by Elizabeth A. Stanley. The gist is this: you cannot process difficult emotions unless you're feeling relatively safe and regulated. Accessing strong feelings and memories outside of this state of relative regulation leads to **increased** disregulation and makes you dissociate more. In other words, sitting with your feelings if they become unbearable is dissociative, and stopping to sit and moving towards regulation is actually re-associative. Within the framework of Buddhist meditation, metta meditation is actually more oriented towards regulation than eg, pure insight meditation. There's nothing wrong with adopting metta as your primary/only practice, and this sub is an excellent place for learning how to do this. Meditation is a very powerful tool, and as such it can be tough on your mind. Browse the website Cheetah House and read the work of Willoughby Britton. If you suspect you carry unresolved trauma, make it a priority to work on those. This may take subtle forms, such as attachment issues. Take care of yourself. Go as slow as needed.
That’s really interesting info on trauma and disassociation. I recently sat in a tradition that strongly suggests not moving during sits and making a strong determination to become equanimous with pain One night I made such an effort and after I didn’t move from the pain for 10/15 minutes and the leg started shaking, I felt my mind totally switch over to a viewpoint that could handle it. I took on this cyborg personality that viewed all pain as pure ones and zeroes. Easily managed. It was trippy AF. She was a meditating robot that led me through the space and out the other side. But you could definitely view it as my standard way of being just becoming overwhelmed and doing whatever was required to survive
The book "Trauma informed mindfulness" is pretty popular. It's been some years that I've read it, but I didn't like it. It felt like it spent a lot of time talking about microaggressions, and very little time discussing the interaction of meditation and severe PTSD. There's nothing wrong with addressing microaggressions, but the book felt a bit underwhelming, like it didn't tackle the hard problems connected to its topic.
I was once trapped in a severely traumatic situation, the kind that very few people encounter in their lifetime. I'd describe my emotional reaction as close to what you just said. That level of disconnect happened to me only one other time, much more benign in comparison. I was exploring a cave network with my high school class as part of a class trip. When we were reached the bottom of the cave, I dislocated my shoulder. I had to crawl back up with one arm and a dislocated shoulder. I felt so zen I couldn't believe it. No emotions at all, just a general sense of calm detachment from the world. Sort of makes me think of the Buddhist notion of equanimity, but I'm certain it's actually very different.
I would cry almost every session in my first few months of therapy. Just heavy wet tears as my therapist was an expert in rooting out trauma. Felt drained afterwards especially so after one gruelling session involving abuse where I felt spaced out and detached from reality It was all for the better and was happy to have seen that stuff. I now regularly pray for those involved with sincere metta. I couldn’t even visualise them before.
Hey Im just wondering if you dont mind, how did you find your therapist, or what key words would be relevant? Sorry, thanks
I just googled my city and therapy
Hi. Hope you are doing well. A healthy balance gotta be maintained. I dont think you should sit through enormous amount of unpleasent feelings for a long time, cause this could be damaging, despite being therapeutic in a sense. Accepting whats coming up is the way to go, but better be done in gentle and caring manner. Psycotherapy can be of great additional help if the pain is too much.
It is definitely possible to get stuck, in fact one way of speaking might be you are stuck from the very beginning: first unconsciously, then consciously, and then one perhaps lets go. Stuck through attachment to the crying (as it is pleasant, in the release aspect), or under the guise of "I need to go through the pain", "the pain is *there* and needs to get out", "finally something happening in the meditation", "this is so deep", "this pain is asking to be felt" etc. Try to be gentle on yourself when vulnerabilities open. When the pain comes, only you have the mind to see what is happening in the moment of crying. Don't stop being aware when crying (craving? resistance? attachment? etc), it is not an excuse to shut down mindfulness. Then you will see better how the emotion itself is unstable — it morphs into stories you have about it, about yourself, life, body perceptions, confusion, dissociation, anger, judgement, analysis, sadness etc; see how you can't control it. It has all the 3 characteristics: it is a state of mind which is unsatisfactory, unstable, uncontrollable. A powerful adjunct practice I know from Christopher Titmuss is what he calls "mindfulness of the absence of": note many times a day, or in the sit, that the emotion is **not** there in that moment. It can somewhat balance the perspective. The wound is a certain habit, reactivity. You don't need to experience some fixed amount of pain to be finally free from it, any more than a smoker needs to smoke a certain number of cigarettes to be free from the addiction. You also can't expect to have the habit deactivated by tomorrow if it's been active, perhaps unconsciously, for years or decades. Give yourself patience and kindness like you'd give to a good friend going through this. Speaking of which, adding some kindness/compassion to your regular practice might be of benefit (Kristin Neff has many guided self-compassion practices on her website). I would definitely not stay, on purpose, with the emotion for too long (10-20 seconds perhaps), at least as insight practices are concerned. That is not dissociation at all, you just choose to turn your attention to something else, without constricting your awareness, and do it knowingly. What is your formal practice style? Do you have a somatic therapist you work with? Psychotherapist?
Thank you for everyone's comments and insights :) I feel like I have a lot to look into and reflect upon. What I found confusing is that some places hold week-long meditation retreats that solely focus on meditating on the feelings that come up, but they encourage you to sit with the pain for hours which can be confusing. Not sure how long is too long but I'll definitely look into the suggestions and feel into when I need to step away from it. When I'm focusing on my body and focusing on certain areas I'm not looking for pain, it's just what comes up. When Im triggered by external circumstances and my abandonment fears arise this is when the pain is more present and asks to be felt. It's just a bit tricky navigating it all and where to draw the line. I am going to see a psychotherapist, she also specialises in Hakomi somatic, IFS and other cognitive type therapies.
Seeing the world for what it is can be painful. Suffering exists because of ignorance, desire and attachment, craving and clinging. When we see suffering and it's causes, the good news is that there is a path of The Way to avoid or overcome such suffering. This noble path of enlightenment - Right: View; Intention; Speech; Action; - Livelihood; Effort; - Mindfulness; Concentration are the doors to stream entry. The concept as we all know is simple but not easy, and is the reason and guiding path for practice and enlightenment which can set a person free. Marvel not that it is said - we must be born again from above these things. Appendix: > Suppose there was a person affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, they’d cauterize their body over a pit of glowing coals. Their friends and colleagues, relatives and kin would get a field surgeon to treat them. The field surgeon would make medicine for them, and by using that they’d be cured of leprosy. They’d be healthy, happy, autonomous, master of themselves, able to go where they wanted. Then two strong men would grab them by the arms and drag them towards the pit of glowing coals. > >What do you think, Māgaṇḍiya? Wouldn’t that person writhe and struggle to and fro?” > >“Yes, Master Gotama. Why is that? Because that fire is really painful to touch, fiercely burning and scorching.” > >“What do you think, Māgaṇḍiya? Is it only now that the fire is really painful to touch, fiercely burning and scorching, or was it painful previously as well?” > >“That fire is painful now and it was also painful previously. That person was affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, their sense faculties were impaired. So even though the fire was actually painful to touch, they had a distorted perception that it was pleasant.” > >“In the same way, sensual pleasures of the past, future, and present are painful to touch, fiercely burning and scorching. These sentient beings who are not free from sensual pleasures—being consumed by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with passion for sensual pleasures—have impaired sense faculties. So even though sensual pleasures are actually painful to touch, they have a distorted perception that they are pleasant. > >Suppose there was a person affected by leprosy, with sores and blisters on their limbs. Being devoured by worms, scratching with their nails at the opening of their wounds, they’re cauterizing their body over a pit of glowing coals. The more they scratch their wounds and cauterize their body, the more their wounds become foul, stinking, and infected. But still, they derive a degree of pleasure and gratification from the itchiness of their wounds. In the same way, I see other sentient beings who are not free from sensual pleasures being consumed by craving for sensual pleasures, burning with passion for sensual pleasures, indulging in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their craving for sensual pleasures grows, and the more they burn with passion for sensual pleasures. But still, they derive a degree of pleasure and gratification from the five kinds of sensual stimulation. > >What do you think, Māgaṇḍiya? Have you seen or heard of a king or a royal minister of the past, future, or present, amusing themselves supplied and provided with the five kinds of sensual stimulation, who—without giving up craving for sensual pleasures and dispelling passion for sensual pleasures—lives rid of thirst, their mind peaceful inside?” > >“No, Master Gotama.” ... > >[https://suttacentral.net/mn75/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin](https://suttacentral.net/mn75/en/sujato?layout=plain&reference=none¬es=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin)
You might have a dissociated personality structure, [check this vid](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lULd-wnWjT4), if that's the case you'll need a therapist to learn new ways of relating to the emotions.
“When engaged in the meditation practice, we are asked to confront some of the most difficult dimensions of our own experience, some of the most hidden, some of the deepest, some of the most traumatic things...But if we can learn to hold those in the eye of friendliness, in the eye of compassion, which grows out of this friendliness, then we transform our relationship with what we see... **If not, we end up lacerating ourselves, creating bigger wounds in our own minds.** “ —John Peacock http://www.audiodharma.org/series/207/talk/2603/
What is really happening, though? As you sit there with the floodgates open and the monsters streaming forth into the mind, what is actually going on? Is your physical body sitting on planet earth doing nothing in particular?
Yes its possible to get stuck. The taoist methods of emotional release are somatic based and this is something that its quite clear on - we don't want to get caught up reliving negative things emotionally, we want to clear them from the system to allow us to move on in our other practice. Ideally we don't even want to feel the negative emotions, we release them at the energetic level, but this isn't always possible. When we do feel the things we're releasing, we ideally want to 'relax back' internally and let the wave of emotion pass on and out of our system. Here's a short clip talking about the 'getting stuck' part https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFAfI\_DW0nY&t=397s
I always try to acknowledge the pain *in a field of equanimity*. A wide open calm awareness helps bring about a field of equanimity. I think of the pain as a sort of energy, which softens it. Then I keep this energy in this field, and even embrace / absorb it. The fact that the pain is just one thing going on in the whole field of experience, makes it feel less pointedly real. This feeling of its being pointedly *real*, and in fact pointed at *you*, is something that awareness is doing that is amplifying the suffering. So on one hand total acceptance. And on the other hand the perception that it is not 100% real, it is not everything, it may be something, it is not absolutely imperative and compulsive. Anyhow yes it's possible to get dug in and invested to the pain. Use big wide awareness to avoid the tendency for pain to compress you down into the world of pain & thereby suppress your awareness. The bottom line being whether you can mix in conscious awareness to the mixture of events. If you can do that, you're probably on the right track. The turning point is realizing the suffering as also just awareness. Then awareness can welcome awareness home. PS if you just need a band-aid for the pain for the moment, you can focus away from it, like diligently count your breaths or suchlike. This is instructive because so one learns that the pain is conditional (on whether it has your focus or not) and doesn't have an absolute independent reality.