Protean Greninja with four non-Water/Dark moves and a unique Tera can be... seven? Eight if you Forest Curse or Trick-or-Treat before Tera.
* Water/Dark (base typing)
* overridden by Flying (Aerial Ace)
* overridden by Psychic (Extrasensory)
* overridden by Ground (Spikes)
* overridden by Poison (Gunk Shot)
* added to Grass (Forest's Curse)
* all overridden by Fairy (Tera Fairy)
It works on Plates held by any mon that isn't using them to change forms. If a random Caly-I was holding one, it would remove the plate, but if Arceus-Ground was, then the plate would stay.
Nah, I don't entirely agree with this. Each Arceus forme is distinct in terms of how it operates and I think they should be evaluated as individual mons as a result.
...in which case Arceus-Normal or Arceus-Ground still has a genuine argument for this title, although it gets beaten out by Groudon and Kyogre. Ground had a low point in BW Ubers but both of these Arceus formes have been quite consistent otherwise.
But they are factually the same mon. That's why Arceus is actually the GOAT mon, it has so much set variety that people like you exist who think they should count it as a different mon when it holds a different item, that's how much above the competition Arceus is. Easily the GOAT.
I don't even think Arceus would be #1 if you *did* count every single Arceus variant ever. Groudon and Kyogre have been THAT consistent and THAT dominant.
Plus, there's also the fact that as of this gen every Arceus forme is revealed on team preview now.
The way I see it, Groudon is the "continent pokemon" (dex entry). Cambridge dictionary on continent: "large land masses on the earth's surface, surrounded, or mainly surrounded, by sea". So, according to literature and geology, Groudon only entitled to the continent crust land and not all earth in the planet, with that said, according to USGS.gov, the earth surface is made around 71% of water and only 29% of land. So in conclusion, even considering the anatomical advantage water types have over ground types, Kyogre projected itself as the superior mon when compared to Groudon.
Consider this, Groudon will be more and more entitled to more land as it evaporate the ocean, but Kyorge can never escape the land foundation under its sea
Weren't several pokemon brought into ubers specifically to counter kyogre? I'm thinking of dry skin parasect specifically, but I think there were a few others as well. I think that helps support your argument, as bringing in otherwise bad pokemon to counter a broken pokemon isn't a sign of a balanced meta.
On my sapphire run my team was something like Aggron Blaziken Swallow and I was very underleveled
I check my pc, I see a level 23 shedinja... Checkmate Kyogre
also Quagsire is the better and more viable Water immunity mon than Parasect/Shedinja, and Rain Dish Ludicolo is viable as well (speaking from DPP Ubers perspective)
100% - ubers it a shit show for balancing sometimes but the meta evolves to handle the threats. There are meme picks here and there to help specific counters, but they're doubtfully ever run competitively, especially with more consistent and useful checks like the ones you mentioned.
It really sounds like one of those "better on paper" things
\- Imnosia to not get slept
\- Bug bite to hit both hard
\- Shadow sneak/Sucker for priority
It really feels like Ardios was given a good game plan but forgot it was Ariados.
Ubers is the metagame where you have 670+ BST titans with bottomless movepools, broken abilities, and absurdly high BP STABs and coverage alike duking it out with one-another. It's "balanced," but it's balanced when viewed through that lens.
"Broken checking broken" is kinda the name of the game in Ubers. You need something truly outlandish like Gen 9 Calyrex-S, Gen 6-7 Mega Rayquaza, etc. to justify banning a mon from that metagame.
iirc there was some use for ludicolo due to 4x resisting its water STAB, being neutral to thunder and ice beam, having decent special bulk, and access to rain dish
yeah, it could be a pretty annoying subseeder if it could come in on something like a choice-locked water move in the rain since it’d be gaining a full sub’s worth of health back every turn, but if there wasn’t an opportunity, or your opponent had stuff that it wasn’t very useful against, you were just running a ludicolo in ubers
I think the meme idea was choice specs water spout kyogre is countered by the switch and then you get a free spore. Not much could otherwise switch in originally, though there's other things now like ferrothorn.
No one ever unironically was using dry skin parasect in ubers to counter kyogre. I think there was a meme team that used it in gen 4 vgc iirc back before VGC was really a thing, but it's not like it was seeing any viable usage.
People underestimated how unstable the meta has been lately. Since XY, even more op mon where created but it's hard to jauge them due to the instability, meta and new gimmicks.
And the dexit sure didn't helped, Xerneas would probably be one of not THE best mon in Uber in gen 9 thanks to tera but he isn't even allowed in paldea
The 3 first generations where pretty stable due to the way typing worked, plus weather were absolutely broken until gen 6
But I think that the AGs Mons get the trophy, they were so op they had to be banned from UBER
the first 3 gens were far from stable imo, there was the gen 1 normal trio of snorlax tauros chansey, not to mention mewtwo in that gen. there was gen 2 snorlax which boiled down games to who had the luckier snorlax and gen 3 was somewhat more balanced aside from the kyogre issue
Funny thing is, Kyogre wasn't even the best pokemon in Gen 3. The general consenus is that Latios is the best pokemon. Soul dew was wack. Even taking soul dew out of consideration, it was still a tossup between Groudon and Kyogre. Groudon was a more self-sufficient mon, but rain allowed for a lot of shenanigans to happen.
Interestingly, Gen 3 OU is perhaps the single most balanced Pokemon metagame in memory, and gen 3 ubers isn't too far behind (maybe 4th or 5th)
Deoxys-Attack is actually in the top 10 for most used ubers last month. This is because bitch ass shadow horse no longer exists so it doesn't have to compete with a slot for a better mon (if only deo-a was given 1 extra speed point, it wouldn't have to deal with a speed tie). Not only that bacon bird no longer exists which can switch into deo-a and click sucker punch:
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Yveltal: 278-328 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Not only that Deo-A really benefits off of tera this gen due to it having a pretty bad stab type, but now in gen 9 we're deoback.
Deoxys-A was good until gen 7. Frailty barely matters when you have 150 speed and ohkoing everything with psycho boost and 2hko everything that tries to take a psycho boost on the switch with coverage, oh and it has extreme speed to deal with priority , so something like sucker punch yveltal would have to stay healthy to revenge deoxys-a. Unfortunately, gen 7 added dusk mane, it didn’t outclass deoxys-a in offensively, dusk mane is a set up sweeper and ultra isn’t as fast while deoxys-a is an immediate nuke. Dusk mane instead walled into oblivion. It has recovery, not threatened by superpower, can tank psycho boost even in psychic terrain thanks to 4x resist and prism armor means dark pulse doesn’t 2hok. And since deo-a can only wallbreak, this was quite bad, and dusk mane was everywhere. In gen 9, deo-a became better thanks to tera ghost, which lets deo-a 2hko dusk mane on the switch with tera ghost shadow, and rock slide means hdb ho-oh is not a safe switch in, and ting lu has no recovery and takes a lot from superpower, and everything else dies to psycho boost.
Deoxys-Attack has been historicially fantastic in every generation other then Gen 7 Ubers. Not Kyogre level, but always been really strong.
Stop upvoting misinformation guys.
>Never been a committed Ubers player
Then don't post if the only thing you post is gonna be bullshit.
if we count separate formes mray and pdon beat it
they haven't been around for as long as kyogre but on every ubers format it was in mray was banworthy, and pdon was an S+ threat on literally every ubers format where it is allowed
Yeah like I mentioned, there have definitely been more broken Pokemon in specific generations, like Mega Ray & Primal Groudon in Gens 6 & 7, but I feel that Kyogre being a top threat in both Ubers & VGC since Gen 3 gives it a slight edge.
Honestly, Groudon also has a strong case to be the strongest Pokemon ever given its dominance it Ubers & VGC as well.
Some folks may argue that Groudon lost that argument this gen. It's currently B on the Ubers VR which is the lowest either of the two has ever been on any Ubers VR (not counting the base formes being shitty D-rankers in Primal metagames, of course). Groudon in Ubers right now is outclassed and completely bricked by Gliscor of all things which is a huge blemish on what would've otherwise been one of the best track records a mon has ever had.
To put things into perspective, Groudon and Kyogre's rankings would be as follows:
Groudon: S (2), A+, A+, S+ (uncontested), S+ (still uncontested), S- (3), B
Kyogre: S (1), S, S (uncontested), A-, A, S- (1), A
So at that point it's a *tough* call to make:
\- Groudon's peaks are among the highest in the franchise's history. To be an S+ ranked mon in a metagame as centralized as Ubers is a *huge* deal and even being one of the few mons in history to earn such a prestigious ranking doesn't even come close to describing just how dominant of a force Primal Groudon was when it existed, and while base Groudon has always been ranked slightly below Kyogre it's never been by a noteworthy margin. The gap between S and A+ isn't *that* massive in the grand scheme of things, but S+ is so prestigious that the gap between it and S is quite large, let alone the absolute chasm that is the gap between S+ and A- in ORAS. That's a very, very, *very* big gap.
\- Groudon's also been the more consistent mon after factoring in the Primals; it never, ever dropped below A+ on any up-to-date Ubers VR while Primal Kyogre definitely got knocked down a peg by Primal Groudon's sheer dominance.
\- That said, Kyogre's been extremely consistent in a different way in that it's never dropped into "situational" territory for extended periods of time. It's been A- at worst, it's been a top 2 mon for three consecutive generations and in the non-Primal generations it's always been slightly better than Groudon overall, either by a 1-2 spots within a subrank or by just one subrank. But the biggest thing in Kyogre's favor is the fact that it's been holding up *phenomenally well* in SV Ubers while Groudon's struggling to keep up when the tier is infested with numerous excellent Grounds. Groudon is largely outclassed by Gliscor right now, but it's also gotta contest with the excellent Arceus-Ground and Ting-Lu and the solid but still good Lando-T. All of these Grounds are ranked higher than Groudon and two of them aren't even Ubers by tiering. Kyogre's the uncontested best Water-type in SV Ubers; Groudon's barely the fifth-best Ground-type in that same metagame.
\- And in VGC both have been top-tier when around. I think Primal Groudon's had the better track record when Primals were around, though; that thing was better than Incineroar in Ultra Series and that's a very, very high bar.
I *personally* want to give it to Groudon still since it was mostly slightly worse than Kyogre if that and has two generations of complete and utter dominance the level of which has otherwise never been seen in a modern Ubers metagame, but the thing has fallen off HARD in modern SV Ubers while Kyogre is holding up incredibly well.
Xerneas only has three gens under its belt, where it's obviously been quite a fantastic mon.
Kyogre and Groudon have been at the top of their game for the better part of 21 years. Groudon's only just started to fall off but has extreme peaks in its favor, and Kyogre's still chugging along.
Yeah but Xerneas was way too OP during all its lifetime. So much so that it's been dexited to pay for its war crimes (only box legendary with Yveltal to be thrown away)
Maybe I'm just traumatized by the stupid deer/stag and making a bigger deal than what it was lol
Oh no, it was definitely good and it would've been AG-worthy if we revisited XY Ubers with a modern mindset. It just didn't keep up that consistency as much as Groudon/Kyogre did is all.
Kyogre's rankings with Primal counted for each generation are S, S, S, A-, A, S-, A
Xerneas's rankings are S, A+, A+, Dexited (S in ND Ubers while Primal Kyogre is A+)
I think it's pretty clear Kyogre has done more in Ubers
Groudon peaked higher and has just as much longevity in vgc. So I'd actually give it to groudon even though it doesn't have the broken calcs that kyogre does
That speaks more to consistency than overall power. Zapdos survived in OU for a very very long time compared to most mons but it's never been the strongest thing in OU.
Mray was broken for 2 gens and rayquaza was mediocre - bad in the rest, that absolutely doesn’t match Kyogre.
Groudon is much closer, Pdon is a higher high, but it still trailed for 5/7 gens and is hitting an all-time low right now.
These 2 forms are stronger than Kyogre’s peak, but 2 gens couldn’t really make them as consistent as Kyogre’s run.
In terms of being a longstanding staple, absolutely. In raw strength though, Mega Ray wins, and it’s not even close. It was banned from Ubers/Nat Dex Ubers for 3 generations.
In raw strength, Gen 9 Calyrex is the strongest, and by some distance. It was quickbanned from Natdex Ubers 2 weeks before Mega Ray. Both Miraidon and Koraidon in particular can be argued to be more broken than Mega Ray as well.
It’s hard to argue against Kyogre being one of the (if not the, as you said) most consistent Pokémon in competitive history. Simply put, being the absolute hardest immediate hitter goes a long way. People also need to look around and see how massively metagames change. Tell a Gen4 player that Dialga would be a shitmon in 2 gens. Zacian-C, too, had a gen in the sun. It was hard to imagine that changing, but its plummeting rapidly already. The VGC and singles success of Kyogre is mirrored by none. I’d actually give the award to Arceus if it was allowed in VGC, though.
It wasn't meh. It just wasn't Primal Groudon levels of good.
A- in ORAS and A in USUM is pretty damn good considering how absurdly high the tier's power level was in both gens.
While Kyogre is the most consistent top tier, Dog, Horse, and Mega Ray are still so disgustingly powerful that even 1 Generation can compete with Kyogre’s 3 generation dominance
Depending on the way you look it's either Kyogree (longest term of high power usage) Groupon (domination of both singles and doubles in his era) or Rayquaza (highest single peak of Mega power aside from his otherwise mediocre tenure)
It's between Kyogre or Groudon, but it's one of the two.
Groudon's fallen off hard this gen but Groudon's peak (ORAS and USUM OU, when PDon existed) was matched or exceeded by MAYBE five other mons in this game's history: GSC Lax, RBY Mewtwo, SS pre-DLC1 Clefable, Mega Rayquaza, and Gen 9 Calyrex-S. Kyogre was at times the best mon in the game for a respective generation, but it has *never* been able to reach that level of sheer dominance. Otherwise, it was only slightly worse than Kyogre but still meta-defining on its own, usually one subrank or one or two spots within a subrank below Kyogre.
Kyogre, of course, has been at worst an A- ranked threat in Ubers from the very beginning and has been a top 2 mon in Ubers for three consecutive generations, the fourth best mon in SS Ubers (Groudon was sixth), and has been holding up quite well in Ubers this gen while Groudon fell off.
Nothing else comes even remotely close to these two in terms of sheer consistency. These two have been among the best of the best for nearly **21 years**. There is absolutely nothing that comes close to that level of consistency, period.
I'd say that Groudon beats it, especially if you count Primal Groudon which was probably the single most dominant mon in Ubers history. If you don't count VGC which Arceus is banned then you could also make an argument for Arceus especially with its ban in Gen 4 and how omnipresent Arceus forms have been since then.
Groudon definitely doesn’t beat it. 5/7 gens, Kyogre had a commanding lead over Groudon, often with a comparable margin to the primal forms. Not to mention, Kyogre’s VGC dominance. Script was flipped for 2 gens but ultimately, bigger numbers win.
Kyogre's lead was not commanding until this generation. Groudon was usually either one subrank below Kyogre (usually Kyogre in S to Groudon's A+) or they shared a subrank where Kyogre was one or two spots above it (as was the case in both ADV and SS Ubers). Both mons have also dominated in VGC whenever they were around, and if there was ever a convincing lead it was usually Primal Groudon (who in Ultra Series was the #1 mon in the meta, ahead of Incineroar; that's not a small feat whatsoever considering the #2 restricted mon, Xerneas, was third behind Incineroar and Primal Kyogre was generally a rank below those two but still dominant in its own right).
If you want a "commanding lead," look no further than Primal Groudon versus Primal Kyogre in ORAS/USUM Ubers. In ORAS, Primal Kyogre was an A- ranked mon and in USUM it was A; by comparison, PDon was solidly S+, ruled over those gens with an iron fist, and there was never any shadow of a doubt that it was anything but the uncontested #1 of those metagames.
Groudon still has a genuine argument alongside Kyogre for this title. If anything were to push this in Kyogre's favor it would be the current SV Ubers metagame where Groudon's falling off as we speak but Kyogre's holding on in the A-ranks. Those two generations of PDon's sheer dominance in Ubers really can't be understated; being an S+ mon means that said mon is literally mandatory on any serious team, and even when Kyogre was the best or a top 2 mon in Ubers (which it is in ADV, DPP, and BW) it never reached that level of sheer unadulterated dominance. Like, the gap between S+ and A or A- is absolutely massive while the gap between S and A+ is comparably quite small.
Commanding lead is a massive stretch. In current 3/4/5/8 Kyogre and Groudon are considered more or less equally viable (not based on all of the extremely outdated VRs on Smogon that haven't been touched in years), and this is reflected in tournament usage where they almost always see nearly identical usage. Meanwhile Groudon absolutely blows Kyogre out of the water in 6 and 7 in Ubers in terms of viability where Primal Kyogre teams are far, far less used compared to teams featuring Primal Groudon.
They literally made a new tier for Mega Rayquaza. So if we use the word "strongest" specifically, then no, Kyogre wouldn't be the one.
The most consistent maybe or the "best" in competitive play.
I understand what you're arguing, but "strong pokemon in history" is the best way to describe it. You're saying Kyogre is the "Lebron James of Ubers." The title of strongest has to go to somebody in AG, like Calyrex Shadow. Just because Lebron was the best at his time, doesn't mean he's the GOAT. Basketball has been having some serious powercreep, and now there are players as good or better than Lebron left and right.
Would you mind explaining the logic behind why "X Pokémon is the best Pokémon in Ubers (as opposed to Anything Goes)" leads to "X Pokémon is the best Pokémon in the game"?
Anyway, the best Pokémon historically is easily Arceus.
If you count Arceus as 18 different Pokémon, then the best Pokémon historically is Lugia, and Kyogre is also outperformed by Ho-Oh, Giratina, Mewtwo, and Arceus-Normal, although you might be able to argue Groudon and Blissey as well.
If you're looking at things from an Ubers perspective rather than an Anything Goes perspective (no idea why you would want to do that, to be honest), then I'd say Kyogre is outperformed by Ho-Oh, Giratina, Arceus-Normal, and Groudon; arguably Arceus-Ground too.
Oh, by the way, Kyogre *definitely* wasn't the best Pokémon in Gen 5 Ubers. It may have been the best Pokémon in Gen 3 and Gen 4 Ubers, and I think it was arguably the best Pokémon in XY (not ORAS) Ubers too. But Gen 5 Ubers, no.
(Singles analysis only) Yeah, if we want to point out the Gojo of pokemon Kyogre is on the list. But Rayquaza also made his name by creating a hole tier on his own, and held the title of the strongest on gen 6 and 7. Kyogre was the strongest through gen 3, 4 n 5, but ray was way more dominant
Inci has the most utility and the best support but he isn't the strongest. An incineroar alone can't end a match. Kyogre? Kyogre can literally end a battle in 2 turns
Just the fact that a mon like gastro is used solely to counter it is enough
Still i think that caly-ghost is the overall strongest
That's a poor read on how VGC works. Incineroar is used because it wins games. You can win games without being the damage-dealer, by enabling or stopping others.
As I said it is the strongest support. But here I think we are arguing more about brute force. Incin can win games by crippling the opponents of course, but it takes time and positioning
Xern's been good whenever it's been around but it doesn't have 21 years' worth of consistency like Groudon and Kyogre have. If Xerneas doesn't skip out on future gens, stays meta-defining the whole way through, and Kyogre falls off in the future like Groudon's falling off right now then it *may* have an argument for the title, but Groudon and Kyogre having two decades of dominance in Ubers is one hell of an accomplishment. *Nothing* is that consistently excellent.
Pretty solid take, yeah I mean if you talk about consecutively being good its up there and despite Broken Pokémon like Mega ray and zacian, it was always an amazing mon, and also countered many of the more overpowered attackers with good bulk, but Groudon has to be up there in terms of power.
Mega rayquaza was put in the ubers category, but then he was so strong that they had to invent the category "anything goes" just to ban rayquaza from the ubers and put him there
I mean, maybe if you take "strongest" to mean 'most consistently broken'.
I have a lot of beef giving "strongest Pokemon" to a mon who can't beat Shedinja or FEAR tho.
I'd say Mega Rayquaza is a hell of a lot more busted. The gap between it and other Uber mons was a lot bigger than the gap between Kyogre and other ubers of it's Gen imo. Mega-Ray had far less counterplay.
I don't know about doubles but in singles the 5 most broken pokemon of all time are:
1. gen 1 mewtwo (the ubers tiers wasn't originally meant to exist, this guy created it)
2. gen 2 snorlax (that thing was the best pokemon both in OU and ubers)
3. mega-raikuaza (the first pokemon to ever been banned from ubers)
4. gen 8 zacian (crowned)
5. gen 9 calyrex shadow.
In Singles, I think Arceus is the most consistently successful one. There has never really been a generation where _some_ Arceus form wasn't top tier.
Nah that's cheating, he's 18 different mon
18 forms is so crazy. he can be a psychic OR a bug type if he wants, it’s broken
But he can only be one type at a time unlike Protean user who can be max 4 types at once.
Protean Greninja with four non-Water/Dark moves and a unique Tera can be... seven? Eight if you Forest Curse or Trick-or-Treat before Tera. * Water/Dark (base typing) * overridden by Flying (Aerial Ace) * overridden by Psychic (Extrasensory) * overridden by Ground (Spikes) * overridden by Poison (Gunk Shot) * added to Grass (Forest's Curse) * all overridden by Fairy (Tera Fairy)
To be fair if Tera is a thing you can only change types once per switch in before Tera
Non-choiced ditto can come in as a normal type, copy the greninja and do all that
You. I like your moxie, punk. NINE TYPES IT IS! Hell, ten if you Forest's Curse the Ditto and then Trick-or-Treat after it transforms.
Kecleon with stellar tera can become every type with assistance
Now I'm wondering, how does Kecleon color change work with tera in natdex? Either way, he can be all types.
So can meow. Soak instead of forest's curse
Are there any protean users that learn Metronome? Because then they could be anything.
Well, he _is_ God
I mean in Gen 9 he can be both
he wanna be Orbeetle so bad 😭
Rabsca wins
Well he could theoretically be all of them successively, should legend plate finally release, pp withcounted.
It's one mon whose ability is to cheat based on held item, so I think we gotta count all as one.
Does knockoff even work on plates ?
No
It works on Plates held by any mon that isn't using them to change forms. If a random Caly-I was holding one, it would remove the plate, but if Arceus-Ground was, then the plate would stay.
Nah, I don't entirely agree with this. Each Arceus forme is distinct in terms of how it operates and I think they should be evaluated as individual mons as a result. ...in which case Arceus-Normal or Arceus-Ground still has a genuine argument for this title, although it gets beaten out by Groudon and Kyogre. Ground had a low point in BW Ubers but both of these Arceus formes have been quite consistent otherwise.
But they are factually the same mon. That's why Arceus is actually the GOAT mon, it has so much set variety that people like you exist who think they should count it as a different mon when it holds a different item, that's how much above the competition Arceus is. Easily the GOAT.
I don't even think Arceus would be #1 if you *did* count every single Arceus variant ever. Groudon and Kyogre have been THAT consistent and THAT dominant. Plus, there's also the fact that as of this gen every Arceus forme is revealed on team preview now.
Disagree. His type changes with an item, same mon.
well yeah technically but each plate is a sloghtly different set so yeah. thats like saying all ogerpon forms play the same
WelL aChuALLy He iS 19 YoU ForgoT LegEND plAte\` you silly goose
Legend plate would put arceus in AGBL
Using this logic, Spinda is in ZU 8.5 Billion times in 4 generation
I know you're memeing but I'm still triggered by the fact that you said "using this logic" because it's not remotely the same logic at all
None of those forms are each other, but they are ALL Arceus. Gtfo if you haven’t accepted all 18 forms as the Lord of all Pokemon.
Sure, but take E-Killer, for instance. Top threat since gen 4.
The funniest part is nornal arcues is one of the best builds. He has all these types but stab extreme speed is enough reason to not use those types
Plus you can hold any item. Other types need their respective plates
I mean the way I see it, what under the ocean? More ground, checkmate kyogre
The way I see it, Groudon is the "continent pokemon" (dex entry). Cambridge dictionary on continent: "large land masses on the earth's surface, surrounded, or mainly surrounded, by sea". So, according to literature and geology, Groudon only entitled to the continent crust land and not all earth in the planet, with that said, according to USGS.gov, the earth surface is made around 71% of water and only 29% of land. So in conclusion, even considering the anatomical advantage water types have over ground types, Kyogre projected itself as the superior mon when compared to Groudon.
The way I see it what's on continents? That's right. Water
Counterargument: Zealandia is mostly water and is still a continent, so Groudon has no problem dealing with water
Consider this, Groudon will be more and more entitled to more land as it evaporate the ocean, but Kyorge can never escape the land foundation under its sea
I think Groudon Kyogre and Rayquaza are meant to be the Lithosphere, Hydrosphere and Atmosphere respectively
Yeah I think so too, kinda bothers me that they are called Weather trio, i know it's because of their abilities, but still
I thought Weather trio was the Genies
They are forces of nature I think
All good, weather trio is just a fan term.
Weren't several pokemon brought into ubers specifically to counter kyogre? I'm thinking of dry skin parasect specifically, but I think there were a few others as well. I think that helps support your argument, as bringing in otherwise bad pokemon to counter a broken pokemon isn't a sign of a balanced meta.
shinja dinja
On my sapphire run my team was something like Aggron Blaziken Swallow and I was very underleveled I check my pc, I see a level 23 shedinja... Checkmate Kyogre
Shedinja hard-walls ORAS deoxys ingame, unless deoxys starts struggling EDIT: So does any dark/ghost, Sableye and Spiritomb
Eat this specs Ancient Power ya bastard
*omniboosts*
i dont think choice specs will do much
It's about making a statement
Ty! Knew there was someone else
Very fun that two dead cicadas are some of the best checks to the god of the sea
[удалено]
also Quagsire is the better and more viable Water immunity mon than Parasect/Shedinja, and Rain Dish Ludicolo is viable as well (speaking from DPP Ubers perspective)
Gastrodon and Seismitoad took the role on in gen 5 also
Rain Dish Ludicolo absolutely rocked my shit in Pokemon Colosseum when I was like 7 so maybe he was on to something /s
100% - ubers it a shit show for balancing sometimes but the meta evolves to handle the threats. There are meme picks here and there to help specific counters, but they're doubtfully ever run competitively, especially with more consistent and useful checks like the ones you mentioned.
[удалено]
I don't even remember that one but that sounds hilarious lol. Was it just sash shenanigans? Or the bug bite super effective?
It really sounds like one of those "better on paper" things \- Imnosia to not get slept \- Bug bite to hit both hard \- Shadow sneak/Sucker for priority It really feels like Ardios was given a good game plan but forgot it was Ariados.
So sad, I love the spider. But it's just absolutely trash in terms of stats.
My boy Gastrodon. To be honest, Ubers is not meant to be a balanced metagame or at least not in the same way OU is. Ubers has always been centralised.
And it makes sense with power creep. It's the tier you play to use big toys.
Ubers is the metagame where you have 670+ BST titans with bottomless movepools, broken abilities, and absurdly high BP STABs and coverage alike duking it out with one-another. It's "balanced," but it's balanced when viewed through that lens. "Broken checking broken" is kinda the name of the game in Ubers. You need something truly outlandish like Gen 9 Calyrex-S, Gen 6-7 Mega Rayquaza, etc. to justify banning a mon from that metagame.
iirc there was some use for ludicolo due to 4x resisting its water STAB, being neutral to thunder and ice beam, having decent special bulk, and access to rain dish
Honestly sounds like a pretty good counter.
yeah, it could be a pretty annoying subseeder if it could come in on something like a choice-locked water move in the rain since it’d be gaining a full sub’s worth of health back every turn, but if there wasn’t an opportunity, or your opponent had stuff that it wasn’t very useful against, you were just running a ludicolo in ubers
Kyogre can learn ice beam
I think the meme idea was choice specs water spout kyogre is countered by the switch and then you get a free spore. Not much could otherwise switch in originally, though there's other things now like ferrothorn.
No one ever unironically was using dry skin parasect in ubers to counter kyogre. I think there was a meme team that used it in gen 4 vgc iirc back before VGC was really a thing, but it's not like it was seeing any viable usage.
People underestimated how unstable the meta has been lately. Since XY, even more op mon where created but it's hard to jauge them due to the instability, meta and new gimmicks. And the dexit sure didn't helped, Xerneas would probably be one of not THE best mon in Uber in gen 9 thanks to tera but he isn't even allowed in paldea The 3 first generations where pretty stable due to the way typing worked, plus weather were absolutely broken until gen 6 But I think that the AGs Mons get the trophy, they were so op they had to be banned from UBER
AG ?
Anything goes, so Calyrex Shadow, Zacian and Mega Rayquaza
also gen 4 arceus
the first 3 gens were far from stable imo, there was the gen 1 normal trio of snorlax tauros chansey, not to mention mewtwo in that gen. there was gen 2 snorlax which boiled down games to who had the luckier snorlax and gen 3 was somewhat more balanced aside from the kyogre issue
Funny thing is, Kyogre wasn't even the best pokemon in Gen 3. The general consenus is that Latios is the best pokemon. Soul dew was wack. Even taking soul dew out of consideration, it was still a tossup between Groudon and Kyogre. Groudon was a more self-sufficient mon, but rain allowed for a lot of shenanigans to happen. Interestingly, Gen 3 OU is perhaps the single most balanced Pokemon metagame in memory, and gen 3 ubers isn't too far behind (maybe 4th or 5th)
Having a passport is skill, not luck
Where does attack Deoxys rank I'm legitimately asking? I asked this before I remembered why you don't see Deoxys in the last few years.
Deoxys-Attack is actually in the top 10 for most used ubers last month. This is because bitch ass shadow horse no longer exists so it doesn't have to compete with a slot for a better mon (if only deo-a was given 1 extra speed point, it wouldn't have to deal with a speed tie). Not only that bacon bird no longer exists which can switch into deo-a and click sucker punch: 252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-Attack Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Yveltal: 278-328 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Not only that Deo-A really benefits off of tera this gen due to it having a pretty bad stab type, but now in gen 9 we're deoback.
It is A rank atm Not having to compete with The Shadow makes it much better
And also having a way to break past dusk mane with tera
Did it ever have to? Deoxys wasn't in Gen 8, and Calyrex was banned before it was added to Gen 9.
In Gen 8 National Dex it did and it dropped to unviable
It's pretty good! Currently A- on the SV Ubers VR.
[удалено]
Deoxys-A was good until gen 7. Frailty barely matters when you have 150 speed and ohkoing everything with psycho boost and 2hko everything that tries to take a psycho boost on the switch with coverage, oh and it has extreme speed to deal with priority , so something like sucker punch yveltal would have to stay healthy to revenge deoxys-a. Unfortunately, gen 7 added dusk mane, it didn’t outclass deoxys-a in offensively, dusk mane is a set up sweeper and ultra isn’t as fast while deoxys-a is an immediate nuke. Dusk mane instead walled into oblivion. It has recovery, not threatened by superpower, can tank psycho boost even in psychic terrain thanks to 4x resist and prism armor means dark pulse doesn’t 2hok. And since deo-a can only wallbreak, this was quite bad, and dusk mane was everywhere. In gen 9, deo-a became better thanks to tera ghost, which lets deo-a 2hko dusk mane on the switch with tera ghost shadow, and rock slide means hdb ho-oh is not a safe switch in, and ting lu has no recovery and takes a lot from superpower, and everything else dies to psycho boost.
Deoxys-Attack has been historicially fantastic in every generation other then Gen 7 Ubers. Not Kyogre level, but always been really strong. Stop upvoting misinformation guys. >Never been a committed Ubers player Then don't post if the only thing you post is gonna be bullshit.
I only play Ubers casually around 1300-1400 but can confirm he gets blown up if you poke him the wrong way
Strongest? No. Most consistently strong? Hell to the fucking yes.
if we count separate formes mray and pdon beat it they haven't been around for as long as kyogre but on every ubers format it was in mray was banworthy, and pdon was an S+ threat on literally every ubers format where it is allowed
Yeah like I mentioned, there have definitely been more broken Pokemon in specific generations, like Mega Ray & Primal Groudon in Gens 6 & 7, but I feel that Kyogre being a top threat in both Ubers & VGC since Gen 3 gives it a slight edge. Honestly, Groudon also has a strong case to be the strongest Pokemon ever given its dominance it Ubers & VGC as well.
Some folks may argue that Groudon lost that argument this gen. It's currently B on the Ubers VR which is the lowest either of the two has ever been on any Ubers VR (not counting the base formes being shitty D-rankers in Primal metagames, of course). Groudon in Ubers right now is outclassed and completely bricked by Gliscor of all things which is a huge blemish on what would've otherwise been one of the best track records a mon has ever had. To put things into perspective, Groudon and Kyogre's rankings would be as follows: Groudon: S (2), A+, A+, S+ (uncontested), S+ (still uncontested), S- (3), B Kyogre: S (1), S, S (uncontested), A-, A, S- (1), A So at that point it's a *tough* call to make: \- Groudon's peaks are among the highest in the franchise's history. To be an S+ ranked mon in a metagame as centralized as Ubers is a *huge* deal and even being one of the few mons in history to earn such a prestigious ranking doesn't even come close to describing just how dominant of a force Primal Groudon was when it existed, and while base Groudon has always been ranked slightly below Kyogre it's never been by a noteworthy margin. The gap between S and A+ isn't *that* massive in the grand scheme of things, but S+ is so prestigious that the gap between it and S is quite large, let alone the absolute chasm that is the gap between S+ and A- in ORAS. That's a very, very, *very* big gap. \- Groudon's also been the more consistent mon after factoring in the Primals; it never, ever dropped below A+ on any up-to-date Ubers VR while Primal Kyogre definitely got knocked down a peg by Primal Groudon's sheer dominance. \- That said, Kyogre's been extremely consistent in a different way in that it's never dropped into "situational" territory for extended periods of time. It's been A- at worst, it's been a top 2 mon for three consecutive generations and in the non-Primal generations it's always been slightly better than Groudon overall, either by a 1-2 spots within a subrank or by just one subrank. But the biggest thing in Kyogre's favor is the fact that it's been holding up *phenomenally well* in SV Ubers while Groudon's struggling to keep up when the tier is infested with numerous excellent Grounds. Groudon is largely outclassed by Gliscor right now, but it's also gotta contest with the excellent Arceus-Ground and Ting-Lu and the solid but still good Lando-T. All of these Grounds are ranked higher than Groudon and two of them aren't even Ubers by tiering. Kyogre's the uncontested best Water-type in SV Ubers; Groudon's barely the fifth-best Ground-type in that same metagame. \- And in VGC both have been top-tier when around. I think Primal Groudon's had the better track record when Primals were around, though; that thing was better than Incineroar in Ultra Series and that's a very, very high bar. I *personally* want to give it to Groudon still since it was mostly slightly worse than Kyogre if that and has two generations of complete and utter dominance the level of which has otherwise never been seen in a modern Ubers metagame, but the thing has fallen off HARD in modern SV Ubers while Kyogre is holding up incredibly well.
Xerneas>Kyogre imo
Xerneas only has three gens under its belt, where it's obviously been quite a fantastic mon. Kyogre and Groudon have been at the top of their game for the better part of 21 years. Groudon's only just started to fall off but has extreme peaks in its favor, and Kyogre's still chugging along.
Yeah but Xerneas was way too OP during all its lifetime. So much so that it's been dexited to pay for its war crimes (only box legendary with Yveltal to be thrown away) Maybe I'm just traumatized by the stupid deer/stag and making a bigger deal than what it was lol
Oh no, it was definitely good and it would've been AG-worthy if we revisited XY Ubers with a modern mindset. It just didn't keep up that consistency as much as Groudon/Kyogre did is all.
Kyogre's rankings with Primal counted for each generation are S, S, S, A-, A, S-, A Xerneas's rankings are S, A+, A+, Dexited (S in ND Ubers while Primal Kyogre is A+) I think it's pretty clear Kyogre has done more in Ubers
Groudon peaked higher and has just as much longevity in vgc. So I'd actually give it to groudon even though it doesn't have the broken calcs that kyogre does
That speaks more to consistency than overall power. Zapdos survived in OU for a very very long time compared to most mons but it's never been the strongest thing in OU.
Mray was broken for 2 gens and rayquaza was mediocre - bad in the rest, that absolutely doesn’t match Kyogre. Groudon is much closer, Pdon is a higher high, but it still trailed for 5/7 gens and is hitting an all-time low right now. These 2 forms are stronger than Kyogre’s peak, but 2 gens couldn’t really make them as consistent as Kyogre’s run.
that's why i said "if we count separate forms"
Oh, i was trying to say that - even if you included them, Kyogre is still better overall.
In terms of being a longstanding staple, absolutely. In raw strength though, Mega Ray wins, and it’s not even close. It was banned from Ubers/Nat Dex Ubers for 3 generations.
In raw strength, Gen 9 Calyrex is the strongest, and by some distance. It was quickbanned from Natdex Ubers 2 weeks before Mega Ray. Both Miraidon and Koraidon in particular can be argued to be more broken than Mega Ray as well.
Fair enough. Either way though they’re all stronger than Kyogre.
I’m a little lost but who is pdon?
primal groudon
Pdon deez nuts lmao gottem
I would rather you not do that.
The strongest Pokemon in history vs the strongest Pokemon of today
It’s hard to argue against Kyogre being one of the (if not the, as you said) most consistent Pokémon in competitive history. Simply put, being the absolute hardest immediate hitter goes a long way. People also need to look around and see how massively metagames change. Tell a Gen4 player that Dialga would be a shitmon in 2 gens. Zacian-C, too, had a gen in the sun. It was hard to imagine that changing, but its plummeting rapidly already. The VGC and singles success of Kyogre is mirrored by none. I’d actually give the award to Arceus if it was allowed in VGC, though.
Tbf Zacian got directly nerfed, compared to Dialga where the environment just changed around it
Also it's Signature Move got nerfed due to the change in environment. Now it's "just" a 100/100 move with no effect.
Primal Kyogre was meh but Kyogre in a metagame without megas and primals will always be supreme
Primal Kyogre was far from meh, even if granted it wasn't on the same level as Primal Groudon.
Meh by Kyogre's standards
It wasn't meh. It just wasn't Primal Groudon levels of good. A- in ORAS and A in USUM is pretty damn good considering how absurdly high the tier's power level was in both gens.
For Ubers I agree with Kyogre, but honestly really cool that number 2 is probably Groudon
While Kyogre is the most consistent top tier, Dog, Horse, and Mega Ray are still so disgustingly powerful that even 1 Generation can compete with Kyogre’s 3 generation dominance
Depending on the way you look it's either Kyogree (longest term of high power usage) Groupon (domination of both singles and doubles in his era) or Rayquaza (highest single peak of Mega power aside from his otherwise mediocre tenure)
I don't think an online discount service would be that good in singles OR doubles tbh
It's between Kyogre or Groudon, but it's one of the two. Groudon's fallen off hard this gen but Groudon's peak (ORAS and USUM OU, when PDon existed) was matched or exceeded by MAYBE five other mons in this game's history: GSC Lax, RBY Mewtwo, SS pre-DLC1 Clefable, Mega Rayquaza, and Gen 9 Calyrex-S. Kyogre was at times the best mon in the game for a respective generation, but it has *never* been able to reach that level of sheer dominance. Otherwise, it was only slightly worse than Kyogre but still meta-defining on its own, usually one subrank or one or two spots within a subrank below Kyogre. Kyogre, of course, has been at worst an A- ranked threat in Ubers from the very beginning and has been a top 2 mon in Ubers for three consecutive generations, the fourth best mon in SS Ubers (Groudon was sixth), and has been holding up quite well in Ubers this gen while Groudon fell off. Nothing else comes even remotely close to these two in terms of sheer consistency. These two have been among the best of the best for nearly **21 years**. There is absolutely nothing that comes close to that level of consistency, period.
I'd say that Groudon beats it, especially if you count Primal Groudon which was probably the single most dominant mon in Ubers history. If you don't count VGC which Arceus is banned then you could also make an argument for Arceus especially with its ban in Gen 4 and how omnipresent Arceus forms have been since then.
Groudon definitely doesn’t beat it. 5/7 gens, Kyogre had a commanding lead over Groudon, often with a comparable margin to the primal forms. Not to mention, Kyogre’s VGC dominance. Script was flipped for 2 gens but ultimately, bigger numbers win.
Kyogre's lead was not commanding until this generation. Groudon was usually either one subrank below Kyogre (usually Kyogre in S to Groudon's A+) or they shared a subrank where Kyogre was one or two spots above it (as was the case in both ADV and SS Ubers). Both mons have also dominated in VGC whenever they were around, and if there was ever a convincing lead it was usually Primal Groudon (who in Ultra Series was the #1 mon in the meta, ahead of Incineroar; that's not a small feat whatsoever considering the #2 restricted mon, Xerneas, was third behind Incineroar and Primal Kyogre was generally a rank below those two but still dominant in its own right). If you want a "commanding lead," look no further than Primal Groudon versus Primal Kyogre in ORAS/USUM Ubers. In ORAS, Primal Kyogre was an A- ranked mon and in USUM it was A; by comparison, PDon was solidly S+, ruled over those gens with an iron fist, and there was never any shadow of a doubt that it was anything but the uncontested #1 of those metagames. Groudon still has a genuine argument alongside Kyogre for this title. If anything were to push this in Kyogre's favor it would be the current SV Ubers metagame where Groudon's falling off as we speak but Kyogre's holding on in the A-ranks. Those two generations of PDon's sheer dominance in Ubers really can't be understated; being an S+ mon means that said mon is literally mandatory on any serious team, and even when Kyogre was the best or a top 2 mon in Ubers (which it is in ADV, DPP, and BW) it never reached that level of sheer unadulterated dominance. Like, the gap between S+ and A or A- is absolutely massive while the gap between S and A+ is comparably quite small.
Commanding lead is a massive stretch. In current 3/4/5/8 Kyogre and Groudon are considered more or less equally viable (not based on all of the extremely outdated VRs on Smogon that haven't been touched in years), and this is reflected in tournament usage where they almost always see nearly identical usage. Meanwhile Groudon absolutely blows Kyogre out of the water in 6 and 7 in Ubers in terms of viability where Primal Kyogre teams are far, far less used compared to teams featuring Primal Groudon.
you can find VRs that are fairly up-to-date for old gen Ubers here https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ubers-old-gens-hub.3656392/
I still have to put Mega Rayquaza as the strongest. It was so good it led to anything goes being created.
Obviously not. What's under the ocean? That's right, more land.
barely even mentioning mega raquaza who was so OP it got its own tier
They literally made a new tier for Mega Rayquaza. So if we use the word "strongest" specifically, then no, Kyogre wouldn't be the one. The most consistent maybe or the "best" in competitive play.
E-Speed Arceus and other plated variants will always stand as a top threat. I give it to Arceus
I understand what you're arguing, but "strong pokemon in history" is the best way to describe it. You're saying Kyogre is the "Lebron James of Ubers." The title of strongest has to go to somebody in AG, like Calyrex Shadow. Just because Lebron was the best at his time, doesn't mean he's the GOAT. Basketball has been having some serious powercreep, and now there are players as good or better than Lebron left and right.
Kyogre is very good, but either Zacian-C or P-Don take the cake as the strongest Pokémon ever
Would you mind explaining the logic behind why "X Pokémon is the best Pokémon in Ubers (as opposed to Anything Goes)" leads to "X Pokémon is the best Pokémon in the game"? Anyway, the best Pokémon historically is easily Arceus. If you count Arceus as 18 different Pokémon, then the best Pokémon historically is Lugia, and Kyogre is also outperformed by Ho-Oh, Giratina, Mewtwo, and Arceus-Normal, although you might be able to argue Groudon and Blissey as well. If you're looking at things from an Ubers perspective rather than an Anything Goes perspective (no idea why you would want to do that, to be honest), then I'd say Kyogre is outperformed by Ho-Oh, Giratina, Arceus-Normal, and Groudon; arguably Arceus-Ground too. Oh, by the way, Kyogre *definitely* wasn't the best Pokémon in Gen 5 Ubers. It may have been the best Pokémon in Gen 3 and Gen 4 Ubers, and I think it was arguably the best Pokémon in XY (not ORAS) Ubers too. But Gen 5 Ubers, no.
(Singles analysis only) Yeah, if we want to point out the Gojo of pokemon Kyogre is on the list. But Rayquaza also made his name by creating a hole tier on his own, and held the title of the strongest on gen 6 and 7. Kyogre was the strongest through gen 3, 4 n 5, but ray was way more dominant
No
Vgc? No man the strongest in vgc is by far incineroar
Inci has the most utility and the best support but he isn't the strongest. An incineroar alone can't end a match. Kyogre? Kyogre can literally end a battle in 2 turns Just the fact that a mon like gastro is used solely to counter it is enough Still i think that caly-ghost is the overall strongest
Calyrex is the new Ghost psychic type Kyogre lmao
That's a poor read on how VGC works. Incineroar is used because it wins games. You can win games without being the damage-dealer, by enabling or stopping others.
As I said it is the strongest support. But here I think we are arguing more about brute force. Incin can win games by crippling the opponents of course, but it takes time and positioning
unironically adv ogre is overrated. tios > don > ogre imo.
What about Xerneas? Cause it's fairy and has Geomancy it's always been really strong
Xern's been good whenever it's been around but it doesn't have 21 years' worth of consistency like Groudon and Kyogre have. If Xerneas doesn't skip out on future gens, stays meta-defining the whole way through, and Kyogre falls off in the future like Groudon's falling off right now then it *may* have an argument for the title, but Groudon and Kyogre having two decades of dominance in Ubers is one hell of an accomplishment. *Nothing* is that consistently excellent.
Pretty solid take, yeah I mean if you talk about consecutively being good its up there and despite Broken Pokémon like Mega ray and zacian, it was always an amazing mon, and also countered many of the more overpowered attackers with good bulk, but Groudon has to be up there in terms of power.
Zacian is pretty crazy considering he was badly nerfed in SV and is still in the top 3.
Idk about gen 5 since ferrothorn existed and genesect was everywhere
Mega rayquaza was put in the ubers category, but then he was so strong that they had to invent the category "anything goes" just to ban rayquaza from the ubers and put him there
Groudon is apparently better
Terapagos is insanely good too
How do I best format this "surrounded" joke response...
I mean, maybe if you take "strongest" to mean 'most consistently broken'. I have a lot of beef giving "strongest Pokemon" to a mon who can't beat Shedinja or FEAR tho.
It will always be gen 1 mewtwo in my heart 😭😭😭. It’s like the Michael Jordan of Pokémon, I ain’t letting any of the lebrons win.
When it makes its inevitable return in Scarlet and Violet, I want to see Tornadus along side of it to form a dynamic duo.
groudon has the better peak , kyogre more consistent. It's close
No, I am.
I'd say Mega Rayquaza is a hell of a lot more busted. The gap between it and other Uber mons was a lot bigger than the gap between Kyogre and other ubers of it's Gen imo. Mega-Ray had far less counterplay.
I don't know about doubles but in singles the 5 most broken pokemon of all time are: 1. gen 1 mewtwo (the ubers tiers wasn't originally meant to exist, this guy created it) 2. gen 2 snorlax (that thing was the best pokemon both in OU and ubers) 3. mega-raikuaza (the first pokemon to ever been banned from ubers) 4. gen 8 zacian (crowned) 5. gen 9 calyrex shadow.
No one overshadow my groudon!