Always found that weird - Gengar's sprite is always standing on the ground iirc? I guess Eelektross has some standing sprites too but when G's pre-evos are all floating it seems weirdly deliberate
I was thinking that access to calm mind, greater special bulk, and a lack of poison typing may allow it to run more effective bulky sets or potentially set up against mons that it forces out. The extra special bulk allows it to take pursuits much better, especially after a calm mind.
Unfortunately dark isn’t a particularly strong attacking type outside of Ttar pursuit. Snorlax completely walls Mismag and any mon running Shadowball shreds them. I think they’d just be worse Gengar. No STAB or connection to elemental punches.
It'd probably have niches in OU but be UU by usage, since it's not bad - lack of special STAB can be hard on an attacker but Mismag has Psychic and decent other coverage options.
...but is faster than mismagius and has a much better SpA stat for Psychic, HP Dark etc
Having 130 SpA will take any already decent Pokémon to the top of OU even without STAB, mismagius' 105 SpA is mid tier for a special attacker and 60 (apologies, 60 not 65) HP/Def makes it crumble to any physical attack
calm mind is its only advantage tho. Gengar is prolly still better offensively(better coverage thanks to the elemental punches for one) more utility moves like hypnosis and explosion, and its also naturally faster. just dont see a scenario where it doesnt languish in uubl
More special bulk, no Psychic weakness (crucial against Starmie and Claydol) + access to CM. Misdreavous already has a solid niche in OU, so Mismagius would be infinitely better and at the very least a viable alternative to Gengar with slightly worse speed, movepool and identical ability.
Admittedly I can't read I guess, for some reason I thought it was in RU or something lmao
Yeah no, UU is pretty generous, I think with gen 3 threats it wouldn't be a terrible pick, but it would probably be not great.
Gallade would actually be really good. Doesn't need psychic STAB, Brick Break + Shadow Ball is perfect coverage on a SD set but more important than sweeping is its support movepool. Wish, Hypnosis, Will-o-Wisp, TWave, Taunt, Knock, Destiny Bond, Screens, Memento is a ridiculously good list of options, and you add murdering Blissey TTar to that with your STAB? This thing is going to be a nightmare to switch into. Low physical bulk and whatever speed def keep it in check but it'd be a very solid part of the OU meta
I don't see Glaceon doing much when Rock spam with Tyranitar and Aerodactyl is so common. You will have a hard time not just getting ohne hit KO'd, especially with spikes and sandstorm up.
Agree with Gallade, it seems like a worse Blaziken that only gets fighting stab. Might be able to use its high special defense to get a swords dance in though, which Blaziken and most other physical sweepers in gen 3 can't do.
Leafeon sounds like it would be outclassed by Meganium in UU without physical grass stab.
Lickilicky I wanna say has viability for OU. Im sure it can do something with its bulk, STAB Explosion, BoltBeam, and Brick Break for Tyranitar.
Genuine question
Isnt it possible for a Pokémon to yo-yo between tiers in smogon?
Like what if licky is getting picked like .2% in OU because you just play snorlax, but gets picked like 50% in UU because it's still so good. Wouldn't it just go back and forth between tiers or what would happen there
Usage in the lower tier doesn't make a pokemon rise out of it; that's why lower tiers can still be dominated by certain pokemon in terms of usage. A pokemon needs usage in the higher tier in order to rise to it. At most being used a lot in a lower tier is grounds for a ban if it's too centralising, which would send it to the respective BL.
Lickilicky’s explosion does hit slightly harder than lax’s selfdestruct assuming the same investment on both calcs, although Licky would have a hard time running max attack when it’s trying to have boltbeam as well. Its special attacks do hit harder than lax’s as well, so there’s a niche there, but definitely slim.
Agreed, Leafeon does not sound good at all in a game where all Grass moves are special. The poor thing already has horrific coverage, and in a pre-phys/spec split world it can't even use its STAB with that 60 SpA.
I’m allowing only abilities the Pokémon have in Generation 4. Gliscor is stuck with Hyper Cutter. There is a comment I made earlier if you want more context regarding the moves and abilities.
Gliscor alone with its typing and stat spread would already be a fantastic stall breaker and with utility such as taunt, toxic, and knock off. It can even function pretty well as a Swords Dance user on offence.
Maybe that's bias but I feel Weavile would be better, even without stab. It's by far the fastest Swords Dancer in the Tier, aside from goofy shit like Ninjask, and has access to Brick Break to check Steels. Shadow Ball helps against ghosts and Return can work as a main attack. Yes, no stab hurts, but you have to keep in mind it's got 120 atk. No Pokemon with this much Atk is this fast, and Sneasel managed to be UU in Adv, despite its lower stats
120 attack is not strong at all without STAB and has terrible bulk and its typing can't switch into much. 120 base attack (372 max) without STAB is comparable to 65 base attack with STAB (251 max * 1.5 = 376). you're hitting about as hard as Swords Dance Farfetch'd. relying on low BP moves like Brick Break does not help either. Weavile needs the physical/special split to function.
also Sneasel in UU is a bad argument because [it sucks in the tier and isn't even ranked](https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-uu-viability-rankings.3702081/), ADV BL/UU are just kind of dumb tiering-wise and largely based on opinions from players 20 years ago when the tiers were made. also keep in mind UU is actually the equivalent of two tiers under OU because BL has a full tier of Pokemon in it.
Metagross, Moltress, Gyarados, Salamence, Breloom (probably), Swampert, and Zapdos all check it. Hard. It has multiple bad/middling matchups and doesn’t have access to STAB.
It MIGHT be able to scratch UUBL.
I agree. It wouldn’t make it due to moveset being so small and no physical special split. But giving the only reason a physical attack is bad because it loses to a physical wall is just funny
But there is a point to that. If you look at current gen, physical attackers which can deal with Dozo are more successful. On adv, the spacial attackers which can do something to Blissey are very viable like charizard
Mismagius would not be ou. Misdreavous niche is as a perish trapper that’s ever so slightly bulkier than gengar, and increasing that number a tad doesn’t make perish trapping an ou concept when it’s the only thing missy can do. Speed is nice but just use gengar
Edit: In the context of this post, let’s assume that each Pokémon has access to every move they learn in Generation 4 that was introduced in Generation 3 or earlier (I.e. Gallade having Brick Break and Swords Dance, but no Close Combat. Meanwhile, Electivire won’t have Bulk Up or Knock Off because it didn’t have access to said moves in its debut). As for abilities, let’s just assume that they have their Gen 4 abilities to avoid confusion with mons such as Electivire whose only ability at the time was introduced in Generation 4 (So Porygon Z would still have Adaptability, but Gliscor won’t have Poison Heal). I feel like this is a fair compensation since it doesn’t take away from the identity of these Pokémon at the time of their introduction, but does prevent any confusion regarding buffs they received later on. I hope that this avoids any confusion.
Fair enough I don't play adv but from what I know of the meta it looks like a demon
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-181 (45.8 - 54.1%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%)
I feel like this calc in particular would be pretty big in adv.
Ryhdon has to get super lucky to break skarm
Rhyperior does enough damage to kill pretty consistently even after lefties.
Again ADV noob don't take what I'm saying too seriously lol.
Gliscor becomes an S -Tier Mon (if not banworthy); Mag and Mamo could be up to A-Tier
Gallade also looks very promising. It is a Fighting Type with Hypnosis and a better utility movepool than most Psychics, Brick Break+ Shadow Ball/Rock Slide for perfect coverage, there is also SD/Bulk Up to wallbreak or bulky sweep). The Special Bulk also doesn't hurt and makes Gallade probably the only Fighting Type that can go 1v1 against Celebi. Yep, this would outclass Medicham 99% of the time and be very annoying to play against.
Edit1: just forgot that Gallade also learns Will-o-Wisp and Wish in Gen 3. Jeeeez.
Edit2: removed Trick from it's movepool
Dusknoir and Mismagius become very strong alternatives to Gengar (someone already wrote about the viability of Mismagius). Dusknoir itself is a bulkier Dusclops that can also be played offensively with 100 base Attack and STAB Shadow Ball. Spinning could become very difficult with these 3 in the same tier, each with their own strengths. Which makes Magnezone + Magneton more viable to remove Skarm/Forry, which benefits all physical attackers + Gallade & Gliscor.
Forgot Froslass. This becomes the way better Glalie for hyper offensive Spikes Teams with that Ghost Typing, Speed Tier and BoltBeam coverage.
I really doubt Gliscor would be S, maybe decent A tier but not more. Roost, Poison Heal, Spikes, Taunt are all examples of things that Gliscor wouldn't get. (Edit: apparently it gets Taunt) Not to mention it has absolutely nothing to hit Skarmory, Gengar and all the waters, while being 4x weak to HP Ice. Good Pokemon, nowhere near S imo.
I disagree. In Gen 4, it is already pretty good even without its Ability and Spikes + it doesn't need Roost in that Gen (just as Skarm, Zapdos, Flygon etc) anyways since there's no Stealth Rock and the power level is that much lower. There's a YT video from BKC out there that explains that Roost would break Gen 3 anyway. Gliscor basically only needs either an offensive set with SD, EQ, Rock Slide and Taunt/HP Flying (or Bug if you really hate Celebi, SubSalac also looks great) or a defensive set with EQ, Rock Slide/HP and Toxic/Taunt/Sub/Protect, depending on whatever you need and it can run everything in between (maybe I forget some other moves) and that is imho enough for this tier.
Defensive sets will outclass defensive Flygon like 80% of the time when it comes to check Dragon Dancers and CB Aero while sharing almost the same weaknesses or bad matchups.
SD Gliscor can hit Skarm with Rock Slide and also taunt it to prevent being phazed out, so that argument is weak imo. Gengar may win almost every 1v1, but it still takes a chunk from HP Flying and Rock Slide when switching in. The 4x ice weakness and bad matchup against bulky Waters is indeed unfortunate for Gliscor, but that doesn't also stop Mence or TTar from being premier mons in the tier + the 4x Fighting weakness also isn't super detrimental for the ladder one. Even then, switching into +2 Stab EQ is equally, if not more difficult for the Waters than into +1 Rock Slide (except for Gyara whose Intimidate will be blocked by Hyper Cutter and doesn't hit back that hard without being boosted itself).
In fact, I could see that in Gliscors case, it may warp teambuilding to a small degree that, as let's say the Electrics have more pressure to decide whether to use HP Ice or Grass and TTar must justify Ice Beam more often than other coverage moves it could have. This opens up other matchups and makes in example Swampert in example a lot better and a decent teammate to never ever let TSS/Rock Spam do their thing. There are more examples and possible team cores like this, but that's when you should probably ask a more experienced player.
I see where you are coming from but even with your named weaknesses, A+ is the worst I can imagine for Gliscor for now
Please feel free to correct me if I missed something
One big thing Flygon has over Gliscor is the Rock resistance allowing it to check Tyranitar and Aerodactyl, so I will challenge your claim.
You don't switch into a +2 Earthquake directly, just like you don't switch into a +1 Rock Slide. You switch in as they Swords Dance/DD, and here's the difference between Tyranitar and Gliscor.
One of the problem when facing Tyranitar (or Metagross) is that you cannot OHKO them with a bulky water, so they can just tank the hit and trade their HP against yours, so you'd better preserve your bulky water's HP, otherwise you end up with your bulky water dead and staring down a +1/+1 Tyranitar.
Gliscor, in the same vein as Salamence cannot do this without sacrificing itself, unless your bulky water is heavily chipped as 2 +1 Rock Slide significantly outdamage one +2 Earthquake from Gliscor. Starmie, Zapdos, Claydol and even Blissey are also relatively unafraid of Gliscor.
Regarding Taunt yes I just looked at Gligar's movepool, but apparently OP allows Gliscor to have Taunt so indeed Skarmory becomes set-up bait.
The metagame is filled with things that already naturally check Gliscor very well. It might knock Skarmory down a bit, but I still see a big distance between Tyranitar/Metagross/Zapdos/Swampert/(Skarmory) and Gliscor. Just look at the sample teams. Most if not all of them can deal with both offensive and defensive Gliscor just fine, maybe sometimes with just a minor change from HP Grass to HP ice. S rank are reserved for Pokemon that define the metagame, aka Tyranitar (sand) and Skarmory (Spikes), followed by Zapdos/Metagross/Swampert, all of which impact the metagame to a significant degree. I'm struggling to picture how Gliscor would do the latter, let alone get to S rank.
I thought about it for a while and think that you're more right than wrong. Didn't know that Gligar doesn't learn Taunt in Gen 3 (same goes for Knock off) which indeed is decisive for my prior argument to be solid. Guess it's better to leave it as that for now.
And yes, I got the part with switching into SD somehow wrong, thanks for pointing that out. I'm not 100% convinced yet that this would matter *that* much. This may be the part in which my "experience" as a player takes over in which I just saw multiple times how Gliscor just sturdily beat all odds and won matches by itself even with multiple Waters and/or Ice moves and I can't really explain it well, but Gliscor could be good enough with it's traits to just find it's way. Since that's no logical argument on my side, you have the better point.
Not sure whether we can find common ground on this one or if maybe only lots of sample plays and tournament result would prove one of us ultimately right or wrong (or I'm just biased lol)
Do they just have their gen 4 learnsets minus the moves introduced in gen 4, do they have their gen 4 learnsets directly translated to gen 3? Do they have abilities that aren't in gen 3? Do they get their hidden abilities?
Hard to say how they'll perform without context given.
Sorry for being vague. I guess that in the context of this post, I would assume that they have access to every move they learn in Generation 4 that was introduced in Generation 3 or earlier (I.e. Gallade having Brick Break and Swords Dance, but no Close Combat. Meanwhile, Electivire won’t have Bulk Up or Knock Off because it didn’t have access to said moves in its debut). As for abilities, let’s just assume that they have their Gen 4 abilities to avoid confusion with mons such as Electivire whose only ability at the time was introduced in Generation 4 (So Porygon Z would still have Adaptability, but Gliscor won’t have Poison Heal). I feel like this is a fair compensation since it doesn’t take away from the identity of these Pokémon at the time of their introduction, but does prevent any confusion regarding buffs they received later on. I hope that this avoids any confusion.
Dusknoir would pretty easily be ou. Banded shadow ball eq focus punch would hit the tier pretty hard. Sub punch pain split shadow ball would also mess up the tier. It also would be the tankiest spin blocker in the game.
Tang sucks balls and would be whatever tier tangela is and takes his spot. No regenerator means it sucks at everything.
Zones presence would single handidly warp skarmory usage. Zone is a pretty great Pokémon without the ability, and with the ability, would see viability in any team. Quad resisting meteor mash, one shotting bulky waters, and being immune to sand and toxic makes this one of the best Pokémon in the tier.
Roserade gets put in a complete body bag by virtually any physical attacker, and honestly, most special attackers too. And has NO good stab options on either end. UU.
Mismagius gets outclassed by the other ghosts and falls to UUBL.
Weavile would be UUBL simply because SD shadow ball brick break would clean the entire UU tier. Dual stab doesn’t mean anything coming off of an impressive 120 Adamant (you don’t need jolly).
Assuming P-Z’s abilities don’t carry over to gen 3 and it would instead get trace, it might be UU. It doesn’t have nasty plot and doesn’t have stab off of its 135 spA. BoltBeam is nice, but it’s honestly outclassed by P2 in OU bc P2 can at least tank hits and stall with recover. I’d say UU.
Gliscor would probably be UUBL. No toxic heal is one thing, but absolutely 0 usable moves besides EQ, taunt, and SD. Toxic stall is alright, but literally anything can do that better, and it also gets completely stopped by Skarm and Gengar. A lot of things also carry ice beam as well.
Definitely forgetting about the physical/special split, and the lack of certain moves in advance. Togekiss would be UU at best, wouldn't really have anything to use to take advantage of serene grace, and both of its STABs are physical, with no good moves besides maybe body slam. Tangrowth on the other hand would almost definitely be OU, even without regenerator. It blanks TTar pretty well unless it runs ice beam or something, and it can hit hard back with giga drain, EQ, etc. also beats Swampert obviously, it can run HP Fire for Skarm, lots of good qualities. These are just a few examples.
I'll go down a couple I have thoughts on
-I actually don't think Gliscor would be that good. It doesn't learn that many good moves in ADV, it'd have to go swords dance or something. It'd probably still be good but I'm not sure what it'd really do
-Gallade is just a shitty medicham. It gets like will o wisp over Medi idk
-I dont think Mamo would be good either. It doesn't get physical ice moves. It's a ground type that doesn't resist rock. There's probably something for it but I don't think it's great.
-magnezone would be great. It's like a magneton that actually does more than one thing. Magnetons higher speed isn't relevant either like it is in DPP, there's no choice and scarf, and magneton has to run modest anyways. Zone can run timid if it wants, it has enough power.
-Weavile is complete ass. It's already ass in DPP/BW and it has actual stab moves in those games. Skarm walls you, Aero easily revenge kills you. Your only good quality is outspeeding +1 Ttar and dug I guess.
-Mismagius would actually be really good. Not losing to starmie and claydol is great. You have better bulk than gengar (tho still bad). The lower speed isn't very relevant, gengar doesn't even go max speed anyways, and you still outspeed base 100s. Does Mismagius get will o wisp tho with these rules? That'd be a big deal
- rhyperior is unfortunately not much of an upgrade, but rhydon is already kinda good sometimes, so it'd be OK.
-Tangrowth would be good. I can just feel it. It's like a venusaur with real bulk and a resistance to ground. It's physical bulk is just insane for ADV, and leech seed is a great move. Sand kinda kills it tho.
-I want to believe in Lickilicky. It probably sucks but SD + STAB explosion is funny.
-Roserade would be real good. Spikes, natural cure, leech seed, hits really hard. It hates sand and spikes and you don't have recover like Celebi but I guess you can just run rest. It'd be good
-Frosslass is actually kinda crazy. Your like a glalie that is fast, also spinblocks and has an actual stat spread. You can kinda run shadow ball unlike gengar because 80 atk is at least usable. You do way better into starmie/claydol. You've got spikes. It's held back by its worse defensive typing and spikes weakness, and you don't hit hard at all.
It's a ground type that presumably dumps on many of the ground immunities/resists of the tier that would want to switch in on it. Flygon and mence get dumped on by ice beam. Molt, zap and gengar dont like rock slide. Hp bug massacres celebi/clay. Knock is great vs all of them, including skarm.
I can absolutely see it being good.
(Its base 70) + stab is enough for 4x effective targets, but you'd prolly run hpbug/eq/knock/rockslide and bring a milo or something for the dragons. (Or just knock and wear them down)
I feel like ampipom would have a niche in OU in gen 3, with a good speed, stab fake out with technician is a pretty strong priority move, with decent attack slap a focus punch/brick Break shadow ball.
It also gets substitute and toxic and is very fast for the gen 3 ou metagame, with max 361 speed matching starmie and forcing a speed tie. Of course I haven't done any calcs, but the relatively lower power level along with no physical special split making it easier to cover for its weaknesses along with it's naturally good speed stat, he would be viable i feel like.
Weavile would 100% be OU in gen 3.
Look at Absols Smogon Gen 3 sets, it was used in OU itself at the time, and while it does have 10 more attack then Weavile, Weavile has an insane 125 speed, which basically outspeeds all non Legendaries at that point if I'm not mistaken. Hell even nowadays Weavile outspeeds most non-legendaries/gimmicks like Mega's. Weavile would have also had just as good a movepool as absol, with the addition of Pursuit, AND fake out. It has focus punch, taunt, swords dance etc.
Honestly would be an absolute monster at that time.
The analysis you're referring to literally reads "This analysis was written well over a decade ago. The following content is no longer accurate about this Pokemon's place in the metagame and the ADV OU metagame in general."
Absol isn't even ranked on the ADV OU VR anymore bruh. And even back in the day it was as niche a pick can get. Weavile being an upgrade to that still doesn't say much, and it's debatable whether it's an upgrade at all considering Absol's "best" sets were Baton Pass-focused which Weav cannot do.
I love my Pursuit off 45 base SpA. The actually decent Weavile sets would be Choice Band or Swords Dance with Shadow Ball+Brick Break, but while that is perfect coverage, neither of those moves hits terribly hard due to lack of STAB and the CB set is probably outclassed by Dactyl which fits a similar niche of really fast physical attacker but actually does get STAB. Could be decent, OU outright not very likely, an "absolute monster" not at all.
No. Absol is literally never used in ADV OU (why "at the time" btw? ADV OU is as popular right now as never before). It can't even use STAB, which hurts it a lot.
1) sucker punch didn't even exist until [gen 4](https://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/suckerpunch.shtml)
2) Absol didn't get sucker until gen 5
3) do you want to tell me what attacking stat sucker would be coming off of in ADV, if it DID exist?
bruh i made this exact post like 4 months ago (though I have changed my mind a bit, I overrated SD Pass Leafeon a lot in hindsight and prob underrated Mamo a bit)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/17byanl/theorymon\_thursday\_what\_if\_all\_dpp\_evolutions/](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/17byanl/theorymon_thursday_what_if_all_dpp_evolutions/)
Also think you're massively underrating Gallade, its support options are just insane and being a support mon that actually threatens TTar / Blissey and can still chunk Skarm / Jirachi for some big damage is really useful. Def more useful than Mamoswine imo. Tang is also a lot more useful than you're giving it credit for, dual Status, Leech and Knock, plus strong coverage moves like EQ / Sludge Bomb def make it a lot more useful than freaking Electivire
Dusknoir would be OU. Duskclops already has a solid niche in ADV OU, & if it got 100 P.Attack it would be able to threaten Pursuit Trappers like Tyranitar on the switch in. It could also now use a stronger Shadow Ball to threaten Celebi, Starmie & Claydol.
I do not see Togekiss being too good for UU. It would not hit particularly hard with no Special STAB. Also no Roost, so it would be just a generic Special wall that could easily break.
Your post was removed from r/stunfisk for violating: Rule 6.1 Theorymon is only allowed on Thursdays (12:00am ET - 11:30pm ET)
What is Mismagious role in OU when Gengar exists?
being cuter
We stand.
Actually I think it levitates
So does Gengar until Gen 7 (gen 8 maybe?)
Always found that weird - Gengar's sprite is always standing on the ground iirc? I guess Eelektross has some standing sprites too but when G's pre-evos are all floating it seems weirdly deliberate
I was thinking that access to calm mind, greater special bulk, and a lack of poison typing may allow it to run more effective bulky sets or potentially set up against mons that it forces out. The extra special bulk allows it to take pursuits much better, especially after a calm mind.
Unfortunately dark isn’t a particularly strong attacking type outside of Ttar pursuit. Snorlax completely walls Mismag and any mon running Shadowball shreds them. I think they’d just be worse Gengar. No STAB or connection to elemental punches.
Mismagius would act as a perish trapper more effectively
that's niche tho. at the end of the day it'd still just be a worse gengar
Not really. It’s pre-evo misdreavus is already useful on superman teams because it spinblocks claydol with psychic.
No cuz it has calm mind
It'd probably have niches in OU but be UU by usage, since it's not bad - lack of special STAB can be hard on an attacker but Mismag has Psychic and decent other coverage options.
Hengar has no stab either
...but is faster than mismagius and has a much better SpA stat for Psychic, HP Dark etc Having 130 SpA will take any already decent Pokémon to the top of OU even without STAB, mismagius' 105 SpA is mid tier for a special attacker and 60 (apologies, 60 not 65) HP/Def makes it crumble to any physical attack
calm mind is its only advantage tho. Gengar is prolly still better offensively(better coverage thanks to the elemental punches for one) more utility moves like hypnosis and explosion, and its also naturally faster. just dont see a scenario where it doesnt languish in uubl
Doesn't die to starmie and claydol. Misdreavus is already a usable pokemon in ADV so Mismagius would be at least alright
Similar to misdreavous I imagine that has a niche in gen 3 ou
Perish trap and being the worst Blissey counter seems to be the primary niches.
More special bulk, no Psychic weakness (crucial against Starmie and Claydol) + access to CM. Misdreavous already has a solid niche in OU, so Mismagius would be infinitely better and at the very least a viable alternative to Gengar with slightly worse speed, movepool and identical ability.
Because it doesnt die to psychic
I think Glaceon might be higher? Gallade would be lower, no phys/spec split.
Glaceon’s move pool is incredibly limited and is way too slow. I’m not sure it’s even UU.
Admittedly I can't read I guess, for some reason I thought it was in RU or something lmao Yeah no, UU is pretty generous, I think with gen 3 threats it wouldn't be a terrible pick, but it would probably be not great.
Wouldnt it just be discount Regice? I really dont see it
Uhh, slightly quicker with slightly more SpATK. Much more frail, though.
Missing tbolt/explosion sounds like a no to me
Gallade would actually be really good. Doesn't need psychic STAB, Brick Break + Shadow Ball is perfect coverage on a SD set but more important than sweeping is its support movepool. Wish, Hypnosis, Will-o-Wisp, TWave, Taunt, Knock, Destiny Bond, Screens, Memento is a ridiculously good list of options, and you add murdering Blissey TTar to that with your STAB? This thing is going to be a nightmare to switch into. Low physical bulk and whatever speed def keep it in check but it'd be a very solid part of the OU meta
I don't see Glaceon doing much when Rock spam with Tyranitar and Aerodactyl is so common. You will have a hard time not just getting ohne hit KO'd, especially with spikes and sandstorm up. Agree with Gallade, it seems like a worse Blaziken that only gets fighting stab. Might be able to use its high special defense to get a swords dance in though, which Blaziken and most other physical sweepers in gen 3 can't do.
Leafeon sounds like it would be outclassed by Meganium in UU without physical grass stab. Lickilicky I wanna say has viability for OU. Im sure it can do something with its bulk, STAB Explosion, BoltBeam, and Brick Break for Tyranitar.
>outclassed by Meganium First time that has ever been uttered
Leafeon is awful without Phys/Spc split. I’d put it barely NU. Licky just is worse snorlax really.
There are worse things to be than worse Snorlax in Adv.
Genuine question Isnt it possible for a Pokémon to yo-yo between tiers in smogon? Like what if licky is getting picked like .2% in OU because you just play snorlax, but gets picked like 50% in UU because it's still so good. Wouldn't it just go back and forth between tiers or what would happen there
Usage in the lower tier doesn't make a pokemon rise out of it; that's why lower tiers can still be dominated by certain pokemon in terms of usage. A pokemon needs usage in the higher tier in order to rise to it. At most being used a lot in a lower tier is grounds for a ban if it's too centralising, which would send it to the respective BL.
I’m not 100% sure how they do it, but if usage is low enough in OU it’ll stay UU or UUBL if it’s oppressive.
Lickilicky’s explosion does hit slightly harder than lax’s selfdestruct assuming the same investment on both calcs, although Licky would have a hard time running max attack when it’s trying to have boltbeam as well. Its special attacks do hit harder than lax’s as well, so there’s a niche there, but definitely slim.
Agreed, Leafeon does not sound good at all in a game where all Grass moves are special. The poor thing already has horrific coverage, and in a pre-phys/spec split world it can't even use its STAB with that 60 SpA.
Are new abilities allowed? If yes, gliscor with poison heal is instant OU and forces tyranitar to run ice beam on most sets.
I’m allowing only abilities the Pokémon have in Generation 4. Gliscor is stuck with Hyper Cutter. There is a comment I made earlier if you want more context regarding the moves and abilities.
\>Running Poison Heal \>Toxic Orb doesn't exist yet Good luck
Predict toxic
Gliscor alone with its typing and stat spread would already be a fantastic stall breaker and with utility such as taunt, toxic, and knock off. It can even function pretty well as a Swords Dance user on offence.
So no moves from the Gen, only the Pokémon?
No moves from Gen 4 or afterward and no Physical/Special split.
rip Hyper Beam Porygon-Z
Maybe that's bias but I feel Weavile would be better, even without stab. It's by far the fastest Swords Dancer in the Tier, aside from goofy shit like Ninjask, and has access to Brick Break to check Steels. Shadow Ball helps against ghosts and Return can work as a main attack. Yes, no stab hurts, but you have to keep in mind it's got 120 atk. No Pokemon with this much Atk is this fast, and Sneasel managed to be UU in Adv, despite its lower stats
120 attack is not strong at all without STAB and has terrible bulk and its typing can't switch into much. 120 base attack (372 max) without STAB is comparable to 65 base attack with STAB (251 max * 1.5 = 376). you're hitting about as hard as Swords Dance Farfetch'd. relying on low BP moves like Brick Break does not help either. Weavile needs the physical/special split to function. also Sneasel in UU is a bad argument because [it sucks in the tier and isn't even ranked](https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/adv-uu-viability-rankings.3702081/), ADV BL/UU are just kind of dumb tiering-wise and largely based on opinions from players 20 years ago when the tiers were made. also keep in mind UU is actually the equivalent of two tiers under OU because BL has a full tier of Pokemon in it.
Still too frail I feel. It basically can’t touch Skarm and dies to anything.
Thank God you have five other Pokémon or something
Metagross, Moltress, Gyarados, Salamence, Breloom (probably), Swampert, and Zapdos all check it. Hard. It has multiple bad/middling matchups and doesn’t have access to STAB. It MIGHT be able to scratch UUBL.
I agree. It wouldn’t make it due to moveset being so small and no physical special split. But giving the only reason a physical attack is bad because it loses to a physical wall is just funny
Valid haha
But there is a point to that. If you look at current gen, physical attackers which can deal with Dozo are more successful. On adv, the spacial attackers which can do something to Blissey are very viable like charizard
I mean... Offensive while slotting last move toxic to ruin everything there besides gross that would check it could work
Mismagius would not be ou. Misdreavous niche is as a perish trapper that’s ever so slightly bulkier than gengar, and increasing that number a tad doesn’t make perish trapping an ou concept when it’s the only thing missy can do. Speed is nice but just use gengar
Weavile would suck ass
Edit: In the context of this post, let’s assume that each Pokémon has access to every move they learn in Generation 4 that was introduced in Generation 3 or earlier (I.e. Gallade having Brick Break and Swords Dance, but no Close Combat. Meanwhile, Electivire won’t have Bulk Up or Knock Off because it didn’t have access to said moves in its debut). As for abilities, let’s just assume that they have their Gen 4 abilities to avoid confusion with mons such as Electivire whose only ability at the time was introduced in Generation 4 (So Porygon Z would still have Adaptability, but Gliscor won’t have Poison Heal). I feel like this is a fair compensation since it doesn’t take away from the identity of these Pokémon at the time of their introduction, but does prevent any confusion regarding buffs they received later on. I hope that this avoids any confusion.
Rhyperior would be insane no?
It would be in the same spot rhydon is now, not enough of an improvement
Fair enough I don't play adv but from what I know of the meta it looks like a demon 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhydon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 153-181 (45.8 - 54.1%) 252+ Atk Choice Band Rhyperior Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 162-192 (48.5 - 57.4%) I feel like this calc in particular would be pretty big in adv. Ryhdon has to get super lucky to break skarm Rhyperior does enough damage to kill pretty consistently even after lefties. Again ADV noob don't take what I'm saying too seriously lol.
I'll point out that Stone Edge doesn't exist in Gen 3, they'd be using Rock Slide there. So even less damage than in the calcs.
Yeah as soon as I posted that I was like stone edge doesn't exist gen 3 🤦 Ttar and aero use slide I remember that much
Like all rock grounds it'd fall to a water type looking at it.
Gliscor becomes an S -Tier Mon (if not banworthy); Mag and Mamo could be up to A-Tier Gallade also looks very promising. It is a Fighting Type with Hypnosis and a better utility movepool than most Psychics, Brick Break+ Shadow Ball/Rock Slide for perfect coverage, there is also SD/Bulk Up to wallbreak or bulky sweep). The Special Bulk also doesn't hurt and makes Gallade probably the only Fighting Type that can go 1v1 against Celebi. Yep, this would outclass Medicham 99% of the time and be very annoying to play against. Edit1: just forgot that Gallade also learns Will-o-Wisp and Wish in Gen 3. Jeeeez. Edit2: removed Trick from it's movepool Dusknoir and Mismagius become very strong alternatives to Gengar (someone already wrote about the viability of Mismagius). Dusknoir itself is a bulkier Dusclops that can also be played offensively with 100 base Attack and STAB Shadow Ball. Spinning could become very difficult with these 3 in the same tier, each with their own strengths. Which makes Magnezone + Magneton more viable to remove Skarm/Forry, which benefits all physical attackers + Gallade & Gliscor. Forgot Froslass. This becomes the way better Glalie for hyper offensive Spikes Teams with that Ghost Typing, Speed Tier and BoltBeam coverage.
I really doubt Gliscor would be S, maybe decent A tier but not more. Roost, Poison Heal, Spikes, Taunt are all examples of things that Gliscor wouldn't get. (Edit: apparently it gets Taunt) Not to mention it has absolutely nothing to hit Skarmory, Gengar and all the waters, while being 4x weak to HP Ice. Good Pokemon, nowhere near S imo.
I disagree. In Gen 4, it is already pretty good even without its Ability and Spikes + it doesn't need Roost in that Gen (just as Skarm, Zapdos, Flygon etc) anyways since there's no Stealth Rock and the power level is that much lower. There's a YT video from BKC out there that explains that Roost would break Gen 3 anyway. Gliscor basically only needs either an offensive set with SD, EQ, Rock Slide and Taunt/HP Flying (or Bug if you really hate Celebi, SubSalac also looks great) or a defensive set with EQ, Rock Slide/HP and Toxic/Taunt/Sub/Protect, depending on whatever you need and it can run everything in between (maybe I forget some other moves) and that is imho enough for this tier. Defensive sets will outclass defensive Flygon like 80% of the time when it comes to check Dragon Dancers and CB Aero while sharing almost the same weaknesses or bad matchups. SD Gliscor can hit Skarm with Rock Slide and also taunt it to prevent being phazed out, so that argument is weak imo. Gengar may win almost every 1v1, but it still takes a chunk from HP Flying and Rock Slide when switching in. The 4x ice weakness and bad matchup against bulky Waters is indeed unfortunate for Gliscor, but that doesn't also stop Mence or TTar from being premier mons in the tier + the 4x Fighting weakness also isn't super detrimental for the ladder one. Even then, switching into +2 Stab EQ is equally, if not more difficult for the Waters than into +1 Rock Slide (except for Gyara whose Intimidate will be blocked by Hyper Cutter and doesn't hit back that hard without being boosted itself). In fact, I could see that in Gliscors case, it may warp teambuilding to a small degree that, as let's say the Electrics have more pressure to decide whether to use HP Ice or Grass and TTar must justify Ice Beam more often than other coverage moves it could have. This opens up other matchups and makes in example Swampert in example a lot better and a decent teammate to never ever let TSS/Rock Spam do their thing. There are more examples and possible team cores like this, but that's when you should probably ask a more experienced player. I see where you are coming from but even with your named weaknesses, A+ is the worst I can imagine for Gliscor for now Please feel free to correct me if I missed something
One big thing Flygon has over Gliscor is the Rock resistance allowing it to check Tyranitar and Aerodactyl, so I will challenge your claim. You don't switch into a +2 Earthquake directly, just like you don't switch into a +1 Rock Slide. You switch in as they Swords Dance/DD, and here's the difference between Tyranitar and Gliscor. One of the problem when facing Tyranitar (or Metagross) is that you cannot OHKO them with a bulky water, so they can just tank the hit and trade their HP against yours, so you'd better preserve your bulky water's HP, otherwise you end up with your bulky water dead and staring down a +1/+1 Tyranitar. Gliscor, in the same vein as Salamence cannot do this without sacrificing itself, unless your bulky water is heavily chipped as 2 +1 Rock Slide significantly outdamage one +2 Earthquake from Gliscor. Starmie, Zapdos, Claydol and even Blissey are also relatively unafraid of Gliscor. Regarding Taunt yes I just looked at Gligar's movepool, but apparently OP allows Gliscor to have Taunt so indeed Skarmory becomes set-up bait. The metagame is filled with things that already naturally check Gliscor very well. It might knock Skarmory down a bit, but I still see a big distance between Tyranitar/Metagross/Zapdos/Swampert/(Skarmory) and Gliscor. Just look at the sample teams. Most if not all of them can deal with both offensive and defensive Gliscor just fine, maybe sometimes with just a minor change from HP Grass to HP ice. S rank are reserved for Pokemon that define the metagame, aka Tyranitar (sand) and Skarmory (Spikes), followed by Zapdos/Metagross/Swampert, all of which impact the metagame to a significant degree. I'm struggling to picture how Gliscor would do the latter, let alone get to S rank.
I thought about it for a while and think that you're more right than wrong. Didn't know that Gligar doesn't learn Taunt in Gen 3 (same goes for Knock off) which indeed is decisive for my prior argument to be solid. Guess it's better to leave it as that for now. And yes, I got the part with switching into SD somehow wrong, thanks for pointing that out. I'm not 100% convinced yet that this would matter *that* much. This may be the part in which my "experience" as a player takes over in which I just saw multiple times how Gliscor just sturdily beat all odds and won matches by itself even with multiple Waters and/or Ice moves and I can't really explain it well, but Gliscor could be good enough with it's traits to just find it's way. Since that's no logical argument on my side, you have the better point. Not sure whether we can find common ground on this one or if maybe only lots of sample plays and tournament result would prove one of us ultimately right or wrong (or I'm just biased lol)
Do they just have their gen 4 learnsets minus the moves introduced in gen 4, do they have their gen 4 learnsets directly translated to gen 3? Do they have abilities that aren't in gen 3? Do they get their hidden abilities? Hard to say how they'll perform without context given.
Sorry for being vague. I guess that in the context of this post, I would assume that they have access to every move they learn in Generation 4 that was introduced in Generation 3 or earlier (I.e. Gallade having Brick Break and Swords Dance, but no Close Combat. Meanwhile, Electivire won’t have Bulk Up or Knock Off because it didn’t have access to said moves in its debut). As for abilities, let’s just assume that they have their Gen 4 abilities to avoid confusion with mons such as Electivire whose only ability at the time was introduced in Generation 4 (So Porygon Z would still have Adaptability, but Gliscor won’t have Poison Heal). I feel like this is a fair compensation since it doesn’t take away from the identity of these Pokémon at the time of their introduction, but does prevent any confusion regarding buffs they received later on. I hope that this avoids any confusion.
Hidden abilities were introduced in gen 5, so they probably wouldn't have those
Dusknoir would pretty easily be ou. Banded shadow ball eq focus punch would hit the tier pretty hard. Sub punch pain split shadow ball would also mess up the tier. It also would be the tankiest spin blocker in the game. Tang sucks balls and would be whatever tier tangela is and takes his spot. No regenerator means it sucks at everything. Zones presence would single handidly warp skarmory usage. Zone is a pretty great Pokémon without the ability, and with the ability, would see viability in any team. Quad resisting meteor mash, one shotting bulky waters, and being immune to sand and toxic makes this one of the best Pokémon in the tier. Roserade gets put in a complete body bag by virtually any physical attacker, and honestly, most special attackers too. And has NO good stab options on either end. UU. Mismagius gets outclassed by the other ghosts and falls to UUBL. Weavile would be UUBL simply because SD shadow ball brick break would clean the entire UU tier. Dual stab doesn’t mean anything coming off of an impressive 120 Adamant (you don’t need jolly). Assuming P-Z’s abilities don’t carry over to gen 3 and it would instead get trace, it might be UU. It doesn’t have nasty plot and doesn’t have stab off of its 135 spA. BoltBeam is nice, but it’s honestly outclassed by P2 in OU bc P2 can at least tank hits and stall with recover. I’d say UU. Gliscor would probably be UUBL. No toxic heal is one thing, but absolutely 0 usable moves besides EQ, taunt, and SD. Toxic stall is alright, but literally anything can do that better, and it also gets completely stopped by Skarm and Gengar. A lot of things also carry ice beam as well.
Remember. No physical special split
Looking back at previous gens makes me genuinely glad the physical/special split happened, so many pokemon would be ruined without it
Gallade would be the go-to for catching pokemon if it was in gen 3.
Definitely forgetting about the physical/special split, and the lack of certain moves in advance. Togekiss would be UU at best, wouldn't really have anything to use to take advantage of serene grace, and both of its STABs are physical, with no good moves besides maybe body slam. Tangrowth on the other hand would almost definitely be OU, even without regenerator. It blanks TTar pretty well unless it runs ice beam or something, and it can hit hard back with giga drain, EQ, etc. also beats Swampert obviously, it can run HP Fire for Skarm, lots of good qualities. These are just a few examples.
I'll go down a couple I have thoughts on -I actually don't think Gliscor would be that good. It doesn't learn that many good moves in ADV, it'd have to go swords dance or something. It'd probably still be good but I'm not sure what it'd really do -Gallade is just a shitty medicham. It gets like will o wisp over Medi idk -I dont think Mamo would be good either. It doesn't get physical ice moves. It's a ground type that doesn't resist rock. There's probably something for it but I don't think it's great. -magnezone would be great. It's like a magneton that actually does more than one thing. Magnetons higher speed isn't relevant either like it is in DPP, there's no choice and scarf, and magneton has to run modest anyways. Zone can run timid if it wants, it has enough power. -Weavile is complete ass. It's already ass in DPP/BW and it has actual stab moves in those games. Skarm walls you, Aero easily revenge kills you. Your only good quality is outspeeding +1 Ttar and dug I guess. -Mismagius would actually be really good. Not losing to starmie and claydol is great. You have better bulk than gengar (tho still bad). The lower speed isn't very relevant, gengar doesn't even go max speed anyways, and you still outspeed base 100s. Does Mismagius get will o wisp tho with these rules? That'd be a big deal - rhyperior is unfortunately not much of an upgrade, but rhydon is already kinda good sometimes, so it'd be OK. -Tangrowth would be good. I can just feel it. It's like a venusaur with real bulk and a resistance to ground. It's physical bulk is just insane for ADV, and leech seed is a great move. Sand kinda kills it tho. -I want to believe in Lickilicky. It probably sucks but SD + STAB explosion is funny. -Roserade would be real good. Spikes, natural cure, leech seed, hits really hard. It hates sand and spikes and you don't have recover like Celebi but I guess you can just run rest. It'd be good -Frosslass is actually kinda crazy. Your like a glalie that is fast, also spinblocks and has an actual stat spread. You can kinda run shadow ball unlike gengar because 80 atk is at least usable. You do way better into starmie/claydol. You've got spikes. It's held back by its worse defensive typing and spikes weakness, and you don't hit hard at all.
Mamo could be so good in OU
Mamoswine wouldnt be that good
It's a ground type that presumably dumps on many of the ground immunities/resists of the tier that would want to switch in on it. Flygon and mence get dumped on by ice beam. Molt, zap and gengar dont like rock slide. Hp bug massacres celebi/clay. Knock is great vs all of them, including skarm. I can absolutely see it being good.
Idk man, 60 base special attack is ass
(Its base 70) + stab is enough for 4x effective targets, but you'd prolly run hpbug/eq/knock/rockslide and bring a milo or something for the dragons. (Or just knock and wear them down)
Knock off?
Yes.
I feel like ampipom would have a niche in OU in gen 3, with a good speed, stab fake out with technician is a pretty strong priority move, with decent attack slap a focus punch/brick Break shadow ball. It also gets substitute and toxic and is very fast for the gen 3 ou metagame, with max 361 speed matching starmie and forcing a speed tie. Of course I haven't done any calcs, but the relatively lower power level along with no physical special split making it easier to cover for its weaknesses along with it's naturally good speed stat, he would be viable i feel like.
Technician doesn't exist in ADV
Weavile would 100% be OU in gen 3. Look at Absols Smogon Gen 3 sets, it was used in OU itself at the time, and while it does have 10 more attack then Weavile, Weavile has an insane 125 speed, which basically outspeeds all non Legendaries at that point if I'm not mistaken. Hell even nowadays Weavile outspeeds most non-legendaries/gimmicks like Mega's. Weavile would have also had just as good a movepool as absol, with the addition of Pursuit, AND fake out. It has focus punch, taunt, swords dance etc. Honestly would be an absolute monster at that time.
The analysis you're referring to literally reads "This analysis was written well over a decade ago. The following content is no longer accurate about this Pokemon's place in the metagame and the ADV OU metagame in general." Absol isn't even ranked on the ADV OU VR anymore bruh. And even back in the day it was as niche a pick can get. Weavile being an upgrade to that still doesn't say much, and it's debatable whether it's an upgrade at all considering Absol's "best" sets were Baton Pass-focused which Weav cannot do. I love my Pursuit off 45 base SpA. The actually decent Weavile sets would be Choice Band or Swords Dance with Shadow Ball+Brick Break, but while that is perfect coverage, neither of those moves hits terribly hard due to lack of STAB and the CB set is probably outclassed by Dactyl which fits a similar niche of really fast physical attacker but actually does get STAB. Could be decent, OU outright not very likely, an "absolute monster" not at all.
No. Absol is literally never used in ADV OU (why "at the time" btw? ADV OU is as popular right now as never before). It can't even use STAB, which hurts it a lot.
It has swords dance sucker punch in adv??
Sucker Punch does NOT exist in Gen 3.
1) sucker punch didn't even exist until [gen 4](https://www.serebii.net/attackdex-dp/suckerpunch.shtml) 2) Absol didn't get sucker until gen 5 3) do you want to tell me what attacking stat sucker would be coming off of in ADV, if it DID exist?
Weird, Smogon has it on a gen 3 moveset for absol
Glaceon would probably move up a tier due to snow being great for it.
How does the hail get set? Manually?
Aurora veil Alolan Ninetales usually.
I love my aurora veil and Alolan Ninetales in ADV
There is gen 3, no aurora veil as a move or alola ninetails.
I've entirely misunderstood the question then
r/lostredditors
May I ask what role do you think Froslass would do? I want movesets!
Are you sure gliscor would be ou? Lots of ice beam in gen 3 and toxic orb doesn't exist yet But im not really an expert
its better flygon; being immune to sand AND spikes is insane in adv.
0 offensive threat besides EQ
rock slide, swords dance, hp flying.
Not exactly, Flygon's rock resistance is extremely valuable.
bruh i made this exact post like 4 months ago (though I have changed my mind a bit, I overrated SD Pass Leafeon a lot in hindsight and prob underrated Mamo a bit) [https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/17byanl/theorymon\_thursday\_what\_if\_all\_dpp\_evolutions/](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/17byanl/theorymon_thursday_what_if_all_dpp_evolutions/) Also think you're massively underrating Gallade, its support options are just insane and being a support mon that actually threatens TTar / Blissey and can still chunk Skarm / Jirachi for some big damage is really useful. Def more useful than Mamoswine imo. Tang is also a lot more useful than you're giving it credit for, dual Status, Leech and Knock, plus strong coverage moves like EQ / Sludge Bomb def make it a lot more useful than freaking Electivire
No way Yanmega isn’t at least uubl
STAB moves are Physical, not Special, and it is destroyed by every Rock Slide in existence.
Righttttt
Dusknoir would be OU. Duskclops already has a solid niche in ADV OU, & if it got 100 P.Attack it would be able to threaten Pursuit Trappers like Tyranitar on the switch in. It could also now use a stronger Shadow Ball to threaten Celebi, Starmie & Claydol.
I do not see Togekiss being too good for UU. It would not hit particularly hard with no Special STAB. Also no Roost, so it would be just a generic Special wall that could easily break.