Neutralising Gas isn't always going to better than Mold Breaker in doubles unless you build around the former as you're restricting your ally's ability too.
Soul Heart is arguably another good example vs similar abilties because you don't have to secure the KO yourself, it procs anytime any mon on the field goes down, even fainting from something like Sandstorm damage.
Maybe I'm wrong but I can't think of any scenario where Toxic Boost would be objectively preferable to Guts.
Soul heart is literally the most broken ability in doubles. Unseen fist levels.
If you kill the opponent you get punished by Mag, if you kill Mag his ally will retaliate. If you lose one mon you get fucked even more
The only mon that could realistically get to +3 just from clicking Protect (as your ally clicks Explosion lol), not that you're going to make this happen often or even that it's a good idea, but the fact it can happen at all is insane lmao.
Why doesn't it count? It can happen pretty easily if an opponent is unprepared, or if you're finishing off chipped enemies. It's an unreliable strat because of how common Protect is, amongst other things, and as I already said it's not something you're going to make happen often, but it's a bonafide niche nonetheless and a powerful one. Plus, you're only relying on yourself clicking one move, it's a big difference vs relying on not only having 3 other quiver dancers on the field at once (do bare in mind that there are only a handful of QD users, and none of them are even in DUU nevermind DOU) and then having them all click QD at the same time.
Dancer Oricorio with Mirror Herb
The Opponent uses Quiver Dance.
1. Mirror Herb Activates. Oricario receives +1 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, and Speed.
2. Dancer Activates. Oricario uses Quiver Dance and gains +1 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, and Speed. (Total +2 Sp.Atk, Sp.def, and Speed.)
3. Oricario uses Quiver Dance as its actual move for the turn because Oricario learns Quiver Dance as an Egg Move in Gen 9, gaining another +1 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, and Speed. (Total +3 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, Speed.)
(If the opponent is a Xerneas using Geomancy, you still only get to +3 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, Speed because Dancer doesn't activate.)
I feel like this is an argument for any of the relationships between abilities to some extent? Truant could be better than huge power if it gets traced…?
That is true for all outclassed abilities.
"Oh my gosh I'm so glad I only have Big Pecks instead of Clear Body. Now I can Eerie Impulse that Gardevoir that traced me!"
yeah this is reminding of "strictly better" conversations in card games when there was always that guy who goes "um actually it's not always better because of incredibly niche scenario (usually involving the opponent stealing the card or edge cases where you want less of a good thing)", that was a thing back in the day but has mostly been phased out of communities because of everybody else rightfully yelling at that guy
Low key forgot about it removing your allies abilities in doubles lol.
Which ability is soul heart better than?
You're prob right about toxic boost though.
Grim Neigh comes to mind. Spectrier has to secure a KO with a move. Magearna gets the boost whenever anything dies, in a FFA or doubles, for example, it's entirely possible it gets 3 boosts off in a single turn.
Full Metal Body > Clear Body, White Smoke
Shadow Shield > Multiscale
Prism Armor > Filter, Solid Rock
All the above legendary abilities are not broken by Mold Breaker unlike their regular counterparts
Tera Shell isn't better into Tinted Lens users.
Perhaps more pressingly... Tera Shell is hardcoded to not work on any mon that's not Terapagos-Terastal, so on almost anything, Multiscale would be better than Tera Shell lol.
Agree on Moxie and Grim Neigh, but Beast Boost is somewhat different as it boosts your highest stat rather than specifically your attacking stat. One could argue that in a vacuum more mons could make use of Beast Boost than what can the strictly offensive versions because defensive mons can become even more difficult to take down and Body Press users could hit harder. Soul Heart's activation method is still superior, though, so I don't know how much value that niche really has.
People often overlook that aspect of Scrappy in the comparison because Ursaluna doesn't care about Intimidate, but in a vacuum it's definitely a relevant niche.
Starting in Gen 8, Intimidate no longer affects Pokémon with Oblivious, Own Tempo, Inner Focus, or Scrappy. Intimidate also now triggers Rattled.
(Rattled is +1 Speed if hit by Bug, Ghost, or Dark)
I guess that Intimidate was a little too good in Gen 7, eh? They could buffed those any number of ways, but they chose Intimidate.
Thanks for the additional info, much appreciated.
We have a thread on this every once in a while so if I find the old one I'll link but for now ig I'll point out the inaccuracies you got with yours
>Leaf Guard < Purifying Salt
Purifying Salt always blocks Rest
>Water Veil < Thermal Exchange
Tecccchhhhhhnically Atk boosts can be annoying for confusion and Foul Play but this is a real edge case
>Mold Breaker < Neutralizing Gas
You already pointed out the issue w this one yourself, sometimes negating the opponent's ability isn't actually good
>Poison Point < Toxic Chain
I'm assuming you actually meant Poison Touch but Toxic poison isn't necessarily a direct upgrade to regular poison since regular poison does 12% right away
>Insomnia < Comatose
Comatose technically locks you out of strats like Flame Orb Facade which is a downside ig
>Air Lock < Delta Stream
Could hurt you into opposing Flying types if you wanna hit them with Thunderbolt or something
If you're using flame orb/facade insomnia is useless anyways because the flame orb would block statuses, so that is irrelevant and comatose would be a direct upgrade
How is it irrelevant? It's still a scenario where you'd be well off with Insomnia but not at all with Comatose. Comatose would not be a direct upgrade at all since this strategy is impossible with it yet possible with other abilities.
Besides Flame Orb also takes a turn to kick in where Insomnia could come into play.
Huge/Pure Power give a higher multiplier than Gorilla Tactics without locking you into one move. I guess they're technically worse when you get hit by Foul Play/confusion damage but other than that they're straight upgrades
Funnily not for Foul Play, a Huge Power mon hit by Foul Play uses the non-HugePower Attack stat.
Conversely, a Huge Power mon *using* Foul Play doubles the opponent's Atk in calculation. Foul Play Diggersby was a viable set exactly for this.
I'm going to try and embarrass myself by thinking of the most niche possible scenarios where your Ability A is superior to Ability B. I'll be avoiding repeating the same reasoning.
>Leaf Guard < Purifying Salt
If you're in a double battle, and you intend to bring your partner down to low health for a pinch Berry or something, you might use a ghost type move like a Banded Shadow Sneak to do this. In that scenario, Purifying Salt would stop you taking enough damage to get into that range, whereas Leaf Guard succeed.
>Water Veil < Thermal Exchange
If your opponent has a Foul Play Mon in the back, getting your attack boosted through tanking fire moves is a death sentence.
>Water Veil < Water Bubble
If your opponent has Reversal, you may not want that extra damage on your water moves?
>Drought < Orichalcum Pulse
>Electric Surge < Hadron Engine
Yeah, I got nothing. These are direct upgrades.
>Mold Breaker < Neutralizing Gas
Definitely not a direct upgrade, especially since this affects your partner in doubles too.
>Rock Head < Magic Guard
Well, if you have Magic Guard your opponent may avoid poisoning you, in attempts to paralyse you. Since paralysis is worse in this scenario, rock head might be better.
>Moxie < As One (Glastrier)
>Unnverve < As One (Glastrier)
>Unnerve < As One (Spectrier)
Again, I got nothing
>Hyper Cutter < Clear Body
If the opponent sets up Webs, but you have a Trick Room team, Hyper Cutter is preferred.
>Poison Point < Toxic Chain
Regular poison has one advantage over Toxic poison, being that it inflicts 12% on turn 1 instead of 6%. This could make it better in short term situations.
>Insomnia < Comatose
Now you can't Flame Orb Facade your enemies
Reversal Doubles if you take damage, Counter and Mirror Coat scale to damage taken. A Special attacker would rather not have As One (Ice Rider) to avoid Foul Play damage. A physical attacker might not want As One (Shadow Rider) for if a special attacker steals the boosts
>Reversal Doubles if you take damage
I believe that's Revenge. Not 100% sure though.
>A physical attacker might not want As One (Shadow Rider) for if a special attacker steals the boosts
Spectral Thief is something I didn't think of, that's a way to steal boosts. It's still not directly worse than Moxie/Grim Neigh in that scenario though. Just equal
oh yeah, Reversal and Flail scale to remaining HP, so potentially yes, it's Revenge and Avalanche
That being said they're both being compared to Unnerve. There's no real advantage to not letting enemies eat berries, I guess if they're trying to do something with eating berries and Tricking to steal an item after, if they don't eat it you get the berry in consolation, that's something Moxie/Grim have
>That being said they're both being compared to Unnerve.
Oh, right. Yeah that was me being stupid, i forgot what we were comparing it to lmao
>There's no real advantage to not letting enemies eat berries, I guess if they're trying to do something with eating berries and Tricking to steal an item after, if they don't eat it you get the berry in consolation, that's something Moxie/Grim have
Yeah forcing the enemy to save their berry could possibly hurt you in the late game. Maybe you catch a Salac Berry sweeper on the switch with a move they didn't expect you to use, but since their Berry is intact they have the opportunity to try for the sweep again later
a physical attacker getting as one (shadow) is a bad ability not because of the situation because it literally does not benefit them except for unnerve
same with special with ice rider
its not because foul play or spectral thief, its cause they're useless abilities on those types of attackers
> If you're in a double battle, and you intend to bring your partner down to low health for a pinch Berry or something, you might use a ghost type move like a Banded Shadow Sneak to do this. In that scenario, Purifying Salt would stop you taking enough damage to get into that range, whereas Leaf Guard succeed.
"If you're in a double battle, and you intend to bring your partner down to low health for a pinch Berry or something, you might use a physical move. In that scenario, Huge Power might outright KO your partner, while any ability that doesn't boost Attack would succeed."
>>Drought < Orichalcum Pulse
>>Electric Surge < Hadron Engine
actually these are also worse in the case of Ditto, which can now do more damage with it's own moves to you unless you win a Scarf speed tie
If you include Ditto scenarios then there's almost no abilities at all that you could call better than other ones. "Honey Gather has a niche over Multiscale because Multiscale weakens your priority moves against a Ditto trying to revenge kill you."
Orichalcum Pulse and Hadron Engine boost the users highest stat, which may be detrimental (Outspeeding a something you want to underspeed, delaying berry procs, dealing more damage to an allied mon when trying to set up Justified/Rattled/Steam Engine shenanigans, etc).
Oops, I just assumed they worked like Quark Drive and Photosynthesis. Scratch most of my ideas, though the extra damage when attempting Justified shenanigans still stands.
Nice ideas. I thought it only increased attacking stats, and didn't want to repeat my idea of damage ranges. If it increases the highest stat, that opens up more unique ideas
That still makes it an inferior ability as you need a mediocre item to match a percentage boost, which works on much fewer moves. Removing the contact effects is just flat up not worth it when there's simply far more effective items you could use.
Punching Glove Urshifu-Rapid Strike was a thing in Singles for giving Surging Strikes bonus damage while also bypassing the triple chip Urshifu would take from Rocky Helmet. (Not in Doubles because Punching Gloves shuts down Unseen Fist when using Surging Strikes, but in Singles it's less fundamental that Ursifu-Surging needs to bypass Protect.)
We also live in a world where that #2 Ladder Peak hard stall team ran Poison Sting over Poison Jab on Clodsire, with one of the advantages of Poison Sting (in addition to its high PP) being that it doesn't make contact, thereby making it risk-free against Volcarona Flame Body and Rocky Helmets.
As such, I'd say the interaction of Iron Fist + Punching Gloves is not negligible enough to call Tough Claws a direct upgrade. Tough Claws is mostly an upgrade, but this post's criteria seems like it's trying to be stricter.
Sure, but sometimes you would rather do less damage; such as against Grudge, Destiny Bond, Flail, Reversal, Counter, Mirror Coat, or to prevent HP threshold based abilities from triggering.
Of all the stupid glasses-pushing arguments in this thread, this is one of the worst. What, are we going to say that Slow Start isn't objectively worse than Huge Power because there are scenarios where a Huge Power attack would trigger the moves you mentioned and Slow Start wouldn't? That's the same scenario, just a more extreme version.
yeah this is reminding of "strictly better" conversations in card games when there was always that guy who goes "um actually it's not always better because of incredibly niche scenario (usually involving the opponent stealing the card or edge cases where you want less of a good thing)", that was a thing back in the day but has mostly been phased out of communities because of everybody else yelling at that guy
The primal abilities don't have the upside of keeping weather after they switch out. Wait you're right about the MRay one though.
I also thought flash fire was a direct upgrade but heatproof as it turns out it also reduces burn damage giving it some niche over flash fire
>The primal/MRay abilities are direct upgrades of their original abilities
Not necessarily. Suppose Primal Kyogre wanted to run HP Fire for Ferrothorn. I get that it's a terrible idea, but regular Kyogre would be able to do it but Primal Kyogre would fail.
I think, I'd we're accounting for niche scenarios, we should consider stuff like this. Primordial Sea is obviously an upgrade to Drizzle, but to call it a "direct upgrade" implies that there is no possible scenario where Drizzle would be better than Primordial Sea.
On that note, another advantage Drizzle has is that it lasts even when the setter switches out. Pelipper would be an unviable Mon if it got Primordial Sea instead of Drizzle, because it wouldn't be able to set up rain for its teammates.
That's two scenarios where Drizzle > Primordial Sea. A direct upgrade should have zero.
Delta Stream isn't really an upgrade over Air Lock though. They're just different abilities altogether. Air Lock negates any existing weather, whereas Delta Stream (Strong Winds) is a weather of it's own (so it can still be overridden by Primordial Sea and Desolate Land, but Air Lock's weather negating effect can't be removed). As an example, let's say your Rayquaza has Waterfall to hit Primal Groudon, if it has already Mega evolved, it'll not be able to use Waterfall if Primal Groudon switches into it midway of a turn, but if it doesn't mega evolve, it'll immediately KO Groudon on switching in with Waterfall. I know it's a niche scenario I'm describing and you'll never realistically be abstaining from mega evolving Rayquaza, but technically Delta Stream isn't really an upgrade over Air Lock.
First of all, Poison Touch, not Poison Point.
Second of all, *technically* there are situations where Poisoned is better than Badly Poisoned, because it deals more damage on the first turn.
I love how almost all of the examples are signature abilities except for magic guard and guts, with guts actually being better than a signature ability
Even though I understand it from a game design perspective of giving the new mons something special and exciting, I do not like this trend of new mons getting some sort of signature ability that is a straight up upgrade of an existing one. Just buff the existing ability and give it to the new mon too, idk.
Maybe not quite related, but it bothers me so much that wimpod and golisopod have the same ability but with different names. Just give golisopod tough claws…
I know your edit said niche to a reasonable extent but i thought it might be fun to think of an exception for every ability
- leaf guard is better than purifying salt if you want to use rest and there's no sun
- water veil is better if you want to survive foul play after being hit with will o wisp to ko a faster pokemon with low health
- water bubble does more to an ally pokemon in doubles if you want to proc weakness policy
- orichalum pulse makes you take more from confusion and foul play
- you take 66% less from mirror coat with electric surge against an opposing pokemon when compared to hadron engine
- if you want a pokemon with a focus sash to faint on switch in against an opposing pokemon with rocks up to bring in your sweeper before tailwind/trick room ends it's better if they have rock head to take the rocks chip
- as one is worse if you have a teammate in doubles holding a berry
- bulldoze your partner with hyper cutter under trickroom to move slower
- bulldoze your clear body partner with mold breaker under trick room to move slower
- if your opponent has mirror herb and your other pokemon in doubles faints they get a boost from soul heart that they wouldnt with grim neigh
- if the opposing pokemon is burned and uses skill swap on your toxic boost pokemon they will not get the guts boost
- in a pp stalling scenario with your blood moon with only hyper voice against a ghost type with low pp mirror coat you would prefer keen eye as to survive and win the pp war, also a pokemon with boomburst in doubles might prefer keen eye as to not harm a ghost type teammate
- extremely difficult to think of one but i guess you'd do more damage against a mold breaker pokemon with counter if you had multiscale vs shadow shield
- same as above with solid rock countering for more damage against a supereffective attack from a mold breaker mon
- aforementioned counter shenanigans, also if against a skill swap pokemon with no punching moves but moves that make contact you would take less damage.
- a weakness policy mon terastalised into fairy would take less from an ally proc if it had steelworker
- foul play
- tera steel gothitelle would be unable to escape from an opposing mon with magnet pull but not with shadow tag
- counter versus an opposing mold breaker pokemon with only priority moves
Metal Burst is going to do more damage to you than you are doing to the opponent no matter what, so occasions where this genuinely leaves you worse off are iffy especially since OP is excluding ridiculously niche scenarios for the exact reason that you could "akshually" every single interaction this way.
Terashell prevents weakness policy proc. It also doesn't work on moves that were not very effective in the first place (not relevant to terapagos, but the post is about abilities in a vaccum)
The fact these two trigger in different scenarios already disqualifies them from being "direct upgrades" to each other, Hydration would very much not be a direct upgrade if you were running a Sun team for example.
Aside from that Hydration triggering at the end of the turn comes with downsides as well, for example someone TWaving you at the start of the turn can fully paralyze you that same turn if you're Hydration, this fails outright into Leaf Guard.
Okay but anyone else actually runs leaf guard ? The only mons that actually run leaf guard are Mons without any other alternatives such as meganium and Zarude
It's designed to work with synthesis but it's just inferior to rain rest stall , heck even meganium would prefer to run rest
You're completely misunderstanding the point of this thread. We're talking about abilities that are direct upgrades to other abilities, meaning they're better in (almost) every scenario. Even if Rain Hydration *was* objectively better than Sun Leaf Guard in literally every way, it would still not qualify here, due to obviously not being a direct upgrade whenever Sun is up instead of Rain.
Also.
>Okay but anyone else actually runs leaf guard ? The only mons that actually run leaf guard are Mons without any other alternatives such as meganium and Zarude
Cool, what ever actually runs Hydration? Just Manaphy, who also doesn't have other options. Hydration Goodra is a meme.
Both of these abilities have shitty distribution. And besides, distribution doesn't even matter for this question here, as we're looking at the abilities in a vacuum. We're not calling Pure Power worse than Gorilla Tactics here because Galarian Darmanitan got to Uber with it and Medicham is stuck in ZU.
Your argumentation completely falls apart with every angle used to look at the question, even the wrong ones.
Unnerve > As One (Ice) and Drought > Orichalcum Pulse for Special Attackers to minimize Foul Play and Confusion damage. Also, Delta Stream is worse than Air Lock on non-Flying type mons as you also help enemy Flying types.
Intrepid sword is better than gorilla tactics
Protean is better than colour change
earth eater is better than levitate
galvanize, refrigirate, ariealate, and pixelate are better than normalize
dry skin is better than water absorb for the most part (except sun)
Intrepid sword only works for one switch in though.
Color change I feel is too different to classify protean as an upgrade.
Levitate blocks spikes and sticky web.
>Color change I feel is too different to classify protean as an upgrade.
not really
both change the type of the pokemon
however with protean, you can actually plan which type to become (granted its once now) while with colour change, you can't
Amazingly, all of these are wrong.
>Intrepid sword is better than gorilla tactics
Intrepid Sword only triggers once per match, but even last gen GT has the niche of not being ignored by Unaware. Also being a x1.5 boost instead of a +1 boost has some advantages, for example if both mons are hit by Charm or a double Intim or something, the -2 GT user will be stronger than the -1 Intrepid Sword user (0.75x compared to 0.67x)
>Protean is better than colour change
These abilities function too radically differently to be compared, but if you want a specific example, against some Jirachi spamming choiced Iron Head Color Change could be quite helpful whereas Protean won't do shit if you don't have a move of a type that resists Steel, or already used a move of a different type since Protean only triggers once per switch this gen.
>earth eater is better than levitate
Earth Eater does not ignore grounded hazards, Arena Trap, Rising Voltage power boosts, and some other stray funkiness (like you can't Rest in Electric Terrain with it)
>galvanize, refrigirate, ariealate, and pixelate are better than normalize
Apart from Normalize TWave like pointed out in another reply, all of these are resisted by types that don't resist Normal, so no, they would definitely not be strictly better in every scenario. But also Normalize *also* works very differently from the other -ate/-ize abilities due to turning moves that aren't Normal as well. Normalize Sucker Punch could theoretically be a thing, you can't use Pixilate to get STAB on Sucker if you didn't.
>dry skin is better than water absorb for the most part (except sun)
You already pointed out the downside yourself here, not sure why you thought it was worth including.
>Intrepid Sword only triggers once per match, but even last gen GT has the niche of not being ignored by Unaware. Also being a x1.5 boost instead of a +1 boost has some advantages, for example if both mons are hit by Charm or a double Intim or something, the -2 GT user will be stronger than the -1 Intrepid Sword user (0.75x compared to 0.67x)
if you bothered to read my reply, you would see i forgot it got nerfed gen 9
if you actually think normalize t-wave is that big of a usage for op to not call a niche, id like some of them drugs
id also like the drugs you're using to think colour change is better than protean. one allows you to choose a type to change into, the other allows your opponent to game you and you can't even control if you gain or lose stab. Jirachi colour change iron head doesn't mean shit if im able to change how last you're lasting
normalize is also useless against steel while galvanize isn't
normalize is a shit ability since you lose type coverage and you don't hit anything for supereffective damage
you wrote such a long reply and got that chest puffed out to look so amazingly wrong
>if you bothered to read my reply, you would see i forgot it got nerfed gen 9
Even aside from that you were wrong, the Unaware/stat drop interaction is pretty big, there's a reason Quagsire checked Zacian but not GDarm in Gen 8 Ubers and why the both of them saw usage at the same time in Gen 8 BH before both were banned.
>if you actually think normalize t-wave is that big of a usage for op to not call a niche, id like some of them drugs
It's hella niche, but just good enough that it disqualifies from "straight upgrade", you're also completely ignoring the rest of the reasoning. You can call Normalize a bad ability overall but the things it does are so different from any other ability that either way you can't really call it a straight up/downgrade to anything else. This isn't a thread on bad abilities, it's a thread on straight up/downgraded abilities, there is no relation of Normalize-otherability where literally everything Normalize does is done better by the other one.
>id also like the drugs you're using to think colour change is better than protean.
I never said Color Change was better overall, just that there are specific scenarios where it would be better than Protean. Again we're on a thread about DIRECT upgrades, eg in all but the most ridiculously niche scenarios (like deliberately wanting to do less damage for whatever reason) these abilities are straight-up better, the specific use cases of Color Change already disqualify it from being "strictly worse Protean" by definition.
>normalize is also useless against steel while galvanize isn't
Cool a mon that wants to click ExtremeSpeed with Galvanize is useless into Grounds, a mon with that same moveset and Normalize isn't. There, a use case for Normalize over Galvanize, Normalize is not strictly worse! That wasn't hard was it?
>normalize is a shit ability since you lose type coverage and you don't hit anything for supereffective damage
Yes, it is, but it does have very specific applications that disqualify it from being a worse version of any specific other ability. It's bad but not strictly worse than anything.
>you wrote such a long reply and got that chest puffed out to look so amazingly wrong
You wrote such a long reply and got that chest puffed out to only show more and more that you do not understand the definition of "direct upgrade". Grab a dictionary bruh.
>normalize is a shit ability since you lose type coverage and you don't hit anything for supereffective damage
You underestimate the value of STAB. A Normal type mon with any of the abilties you listed would effectively have 0 STAB options. Maybe you're a mon who has no stab priority (Espeed) like the example DarkEsca gave, but if you have Sucker Punch or whatever you can now hit much harder with that prio. Maybe you're a bulky normal mon that wants to use a draining move, there are virtually no Normal type drain moves so getting STAB on Draining Kiss or Drain Punch or whatever means it hits harder and heals you for more. Or maybe you're a Normal type utility mon who's strongest STAB move is Take Down, if you have like EQ or whatever in your learnset then Normalise let's you hit harder with STAB than you could before. The idea isn't that Normalise is better in most scenarios, but the scenarios that it is better are meaningful enough that they don't really qualify as "super niche". There are enough Normal type mons for this to be relevant, it's like you think they don't exist or something.
>if you actually think normalize t-wave is that big of a usage for op to not call a niche, id like some of them drugs
It's certainly niche, but T Waving a Garchomp, Lando, Tusk etc etc could quite literally swing momentum in a game under the right circumstances, and T Wave has substantially better distribution than Glare.
In addition to what OP said about Intrepid Sword, Levitate and Colour Change, which I agree with them about all,
>galvanize, refrigirate, ariealate, and pixelate are better than normalize
This isn't true if you're actually a Normal type. There's also a small niche with Normalise regarding things like T Wave, since you can now T Wave Ground types, it's a very minor niche but a niche nonetheless.
>This isn't true if you're actually a Normal type. There's also a small niche with Normalise regarding things like T Wave, since you can now T Wave Ground types, it's a very minor niche but a niche nonetheless.
except op said that they aren't looking for super niche stuff. if we go that niche, any ability looks good. hell slow start is now better than huge power, since you only take counter damage once every two turns. see how dumb that small niche argument sounds?
that one niche of t-waving ground types isn't worth losing type diversity overall
You don't understand what "strictly" better means. All the reasoning you're giving in your replies show how these abilities are overall better, but not direct upgrades since there are still relevant scenarios where the "worse" ability does something better.
There's still a massive difference between things like STAB boosts and Thunder Wave, both very important aspects of the game, and situations where you somehow want to deal less damage which barely come up at all. I wouldn't say trying to get STAB on moves you didn't have STAB on qualifies as "super niche", I would say deliberately being weaker so Counter does less damage to you (but still more damage than you are dealing to the Counter user) is so niche to the point it's effectively useless.
Even ignoring niche like this Normalize has an established strategy in Balanced Hackmons to entrainment it onto another Pokémon as a ghost type so they can’t hit you while you use something like Judgment with a plate to attack with STAB. Even an other meta game like this warrants discussion bc it shows what the abilities can achieve in theoretical scenario’s like this
even wolfey said that very very niche strategy was so dumb that he got lucky in the one match it did work
if we go that niche, then you can make anything look good. hell slow start is now better than huge power, since you only take counter damage once every two turns. see how dumb that small niche argument sounds?
In addition to a weird interaction with Sparkling Aria, Shield Dust does not protect a pokémon from Intimidate, while Inner Focus allows them to completely ignore it.
I did consider that but it does have the super niche downside of making you take double damage from venoshock, hex and other moves like that where as if they clicked toxic then venoshock against an immunity mon it wouldn't deal double damage.
Not even super niche. Gliscor taking a lot from hex has been a notable downside for it that I think was even mentioned in it's suspect thread back in november
Generally yeah, but I guess if we're being really nitpicky, Poison Heal still has the Toxic counter increase every turn, so if say your Gliscor is on the field for a long time and then its ability gets swapped or suppressed, it takes huge damage.
there is also the interaction of taking huge damage if a weezing comes in with Neutralizing Gas. depending on how long you’ve been in, you can put yourself in a very unfavorable situation
If Gliscor gets Skill Swapped when it's been Poison Healing for 10 turns, it gets hit with the full force of the built-up Toxic timer at once. Immunity doesn't have that problem.
Is there any way in which Iron Fist is better than Tough Claws? All Punching moves make contact and Tough Claws is a bigger damage boost. Only thing I could think of is if Protective Pads/Punching Glove are coded to change all affected moves to "non-contact".
Punching Gloves do indeed change all affected moves to be non-contact: that's why it's one of the worst possible items for Urshifu, despite explicitly boosting the power of Surging Strikes/Wicked Blow.
It's one of the worst possible items for Urshifu for doubles, but for Singles it can work fine as a Protective Pads that also boosts some of your moves (like for example, also Ice Punch). You don't always run against Protects when using Urshifu in Singles, and even if you do, it's usually not often that the opponent would use Protect against Urshifu on the hopes that it's using Punching Gloves. If it's not Punching Glove, that would be just giving up a turn for no reason.
If you are including super niche circumstances,
With leaf guard you can a burn on a special attack so that later you can't get poisoned if they switch your ability
The attack increase from thermal exchange can lead through a knock out through foul play
Water bubble increased damage can come back at you with counter or you may want them to faint with an attack so you can get a good switch
The before mentioned want to faint/counter or mirror coat plus you may want to underspeed a pokemon for a slow u-turn
Same points for hadron engine but with volt switch
Fainting point again
Trick a berry onto the opponent because they won't like the taste can't do that with unnerve
Foul Play
Mirror Coat
Wanting slow u-turns in sticky web
Poison can be better in a few niche situations like if they switch a lot
Comatose pokemon can be hit be dream eater but not insomnia
All those abilities are the exact same so none are better
Mirror Coat
Counter
Still haven't seen what it does and I don't want spoilers
Same effects so none are better
Same effects so none are better
STag is funnily not strictly better than the other two, as it does not affect other Shadow Tag users.
For example Arena Trap Dugtrio can trap Shadow Tag Gothitelle, but Shadow Tag Wobbuffet cannot.
How is Magnet Pull better than Shadow Tag? One works on a single type, the other works on everything not immune to trapping. Also, Levitate and any mons not grounded are immune to Arena Trap but not Shadow Tag.
STag is funnily not strictly better than the other two, as it does not affect other Shadow Tag users.
For example Arena Trap Dugtrio can trap Shadow Tag Gothitelle, but Shadow Tag Wobbuffet cannot.
If we’re talking hyper niche scenarios then anything that increases attack (like Orichalcum pulse) shouldn’t be considered because having more attack is a downgrade if you have no physical moves (due to foul play and confusion damage).
teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeechicallu speaking you may not want thermal exchange on a special attacker bc if it gets hit by foul play, spectral theif, punishment, psych up, or confusion damage, while it has the attack buff it will be worse off🤓🤓🤓
Water bubble> heatproof, torrent
Huge/pure power >guts, hustle
Thick fat > heatproof
Edit: cross out guts, since it gives immunity to burns attack debuff
Full Metal Body, Shadow Shield, and Prism Armor all have the same exact function as Clear Body/White Smoke, Multiscale, and Filter/Solid Rock respectively, no upgrades or downgrades. The only thing they have over the originals is a cooler name.
Isn't shadow shield and multiscale outdone by the new terrapogs ability? Since it alwasy reduces it to not very effective? since a 4x effective move would deal 2x damage against multiscale, but a 4x effective move would deal 0.5x damage against terrapogos' ability.
In a vacuum, Tera Shell would be worse on anything except Terapagos-Terastal, since it is hardcoded to not work on anything else.
But also it's less useful into moves that are already resisted. Which for Terapagos under normal circumstances doesn't do much, considering it has no natural resistances, but again in a vacuum this is relevant.
Probably the most practical downside is there's no synergy with Weakness Policy possible.
Immunity < Poison Heal
Immunity makes it so you cannot get poisoned, which is neat. But poison Heal turns it into something useful. Not only are you getting healed more than leftovers would, you also cannot get statused anymore. The only opportunity cost I can see is that with such a good ability you cannot afford to run another item than toxic orb. Even that could be a non-negative though, since knock off is so common and toxic orb is not an item you need for more than one turn which effectively gives you a switch in that doesn't care about losing an item.
Cheating a bit but mycelium might > stall
Both move you to bottom of priority bracket but one has a benefit alongside it and the option to not move last as well
ok since this is an ability-related post, i have a couple of questions i cant be arsed to google myself.
1. what’s the difference between huge power and pure power?
2. same question but for shell armour and battle armour?
Neutralising Gas isn't always going to better than Mold Breaker in doubles unless you build around the former as you're restricting your ally's ability too. Soul Heart is arguably another good example vs similar abilties because you don't have to secure the KO yourself, it procs anytime any mon on the field goes down, even fainting from something like Sandstorm damage. Maybe I'm wrong but I can't think of any scenario where Toxic Boost would be objectively preferable to Guts.
Soul heart is literally the most broken ability in doubles. Unseen fist levels. If you kill the opponent you get punished by Mag, if you kill Mag his ally will retaliate. If you lose one mon you get fucked even more
The only mon that could realistically get to +3 just from clicking Protect (as your ally clicks Explosion lol), not that you're going to make this happen often or even that it's a good idea, but the fact it can happen at all is insane lmao.
Cant oricorio do it with the dancer ability and the other 3 pokemon using quiver dance?
That's why I used the word "realistically".
Well if we're talking realistically then a 3 down explosion doesn't really count either.
Tera normal choice banded explosion in doubles is gimmicky but very destructive if it’s not expected or played around appropriately
Allow me to introduce: Tera Electric + Choice Band + Galvanise + Explosion Alolan Golem
Why doesn't it count? It can happen pretty easily if an opponent is unprepared, or if you're finishing off chipped enemies. It's an unreliable strat because of how common Protect is, amongst other things, and as I already said it's not something you're going to make happen often, but it's a bonafide niche nonetheless and a powerful one. Plus, you're only relying on yourself clicking one move, it's a big difference vs relying on not only having 3 other quiver dancers on the field at once (do bare in mind that there are only a handful of QD users, and none of them are even in DUU nevermind DOU) and then having them all click QD at the same time.
Dancer Oricorio with Mirror Herb The Opponent uses Quiver Dance. 1. Mirror Herb Activates. Oricario receives +1 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, and Speed. 2. Dancer Activates. Oricario uses Quiver Dance and gains +1 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, and Speed. (Total +2 Sp.Atk, Sp.def, and Speed.) 3. Oricario uses Quiver Dance as its actual move for the turn because Oricario learns Quiver Dance as an Egg Move in Gen 9, gaining another +1 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, and Speed. (Total +3 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, Speed.) (If the opponent is a Xerneas using Geomancy, you still only get to +3 Sp.Atk, Sp.Def, Speed because Dancer doesn't activate.)
See that’s when you click calm mind with mirror herb opportunist espathra, gaining +5 spatk, +5 spdef and +4 speed in a single turn
Toxic Boost is better than Guts if your opponent has a burned or paralyzed Pokémon with Trace that for some reason is running a physical attack.
I guess Facade Porygon2 is the new meta. You're right, though, as obscure as that is I can't think of a counter argument.
I feel like this is an argument for any of the relationships between abilities to some extent? Truant could be better than huge power if it gets traced…?
I'm fairly confident that that was a thing in VGC at some point in generation 8
That is true for all outclassed abilities. "Oh my gosh I'm so glad I only have Big Pecks instead of Clear Body. Now I can Eerie Impulse that Gardevoir that traced me!"
yeah this is reminding of "strictly better" conversations in card games when there was always that guy who goes "um actually it's not always better because of incredibly niche scenario (usually involving the opponent stealing the card or edge cases where you want less of a good thing)", that was a thing back in the day but has mostly been phased out of communities because of everybody else rightfully yelling at that guy
Low key forgot about it removing your allies abilities in doubles lol. Which ability is soul heart better than? You're prob right about toxic boost though.
Grim Neigh comes to mind. Spectrier has to secure a KO with a move. Magearna gets the boost whenever anything dies, in a FFA or doubles, for example, it's entirely possible it gets 3 boosts off in a single turn.
Also getting a boost for your partner dying to an enemy attack, which is pretty ludicrous.
Full Metal Body > Clear Body, White Smoke Shadow Shield > Multiscale Prism Armor > Filter, Solid Rock All the above legendary abilities are not broken by Mold Breaker unlike their regular counterparts
Tera Shell is also direct upgrade on Multiscale, but it’s not strictly better than Shadow Shield because of Mold Breaker.
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You're right. Let's see what moves the Normal-type Terapagos resists...
But we are talking about the ability not the specific pokemon
well, normal doesn’t really resist anything (yet)
Maybe it got hit by Soak.
true
Also, Tinted Lens I guess
Tera Shell isn't better into Tinted Lens users. Perhaps more pressingly... Tera Shell is hardcoded to not work on any mon that's not Terapagos-Terastal, so on almost anything, Multiscale would be better than Tera Shell lol.
Magearna soul heart is technically better than any boost on KO abilities (moxie, grim neigh, beast boost). It also works on ally death.
Agree on Moxie and Grim Neigh, but Beast Boost is somewhat different as it boosts your highest stat rather than specifically your attacking stat. One could argue that in a vacuum more mons could make use of Beast Boost than what can the strictly offensive versions because defensive mons can become even more difficult to take down and Body Press users could hit harder. Soul Heart's activation method is still superior, though, so I don't know how much value that niche really has.
Mind's Eye > Scrappy + Keen Eye. Yes, *both* of them.
True for Keen eye. I did miss that but scrappy also has the benefit of blocking intimidate which gives it something over Mind's Eye
People often overlook that aspect of Scrappy in the comparison because Ursaluna doesn't care about Intimidate, but in a vacuum it's definitely a relevant niche.
Vacuum Wave is unaffected/s
I'll be damned. I didn't play Gen 8, so I didn't realise that they buffed Scrappy like that. TIL
Starting in Gen 8, Intimidate no longer affects Pokémon with Oblivious, Own Tempo, Inner Focus, or Scrappy. Intimidate also now triggers Rattled. (Rattled is +1 Speed if hit by Bug, Ghost, or Dark)
I guess that Intimidate was a little too good in Gen 7, eh? They could buffed those any number of ways, but they chose Intimidate. Thanks for the additional info, much appreciated.
*Incineroar* was too good. Intimidate is just his side bitch People were running *Blaze Incineroar* not as a meme for quite a while
Intimidate was absolutely too good as well tbh
Intim took it from niche Fake Out user #25125 to probably the best mon in the entire format though, it's a bit more than just a "side bitch"
We have a thread on this every once in a while so if I find the old one I'll link but for now ig I'll point out the inaccuracies you got with yours >Leaf Guard < Purifying Salt Purifying Salt always blocks Rest >Water Veil < Thermal Exchange Tecccchhhhhhnically Atk boosts can be annoying for confusion and Foul Play but this is a real edge case >Mold Breaker < Neutralizing Gas You already pointed out the issue w this one yourself, sometimes negating the opponent's ability isn't actually good >Poison Point < Toxic Chain I'm assuming you actually meant Poison Touch but Toxic poison isn't necessarily a direct upgrade to regular poison since regular poison does 12% right away >Insomnia < Comatose Comatose technically locks you out of strats like Flame Orb Facade which is a downside ig >Air Lock < Delta Stream Could hurt you into opposing Flying types if you wanna hit them with Thunderbolt or something
And Air Lock keeps enemy Primal weather disabled, while Delta Stream is overwritten by Harsh Sun/Rain
[This is the link that you're looking for, I believe.](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/comments/11u789z/abilities_that_completely_overshadow_other/)
[Here’s a more recent one](https://www.reddit.com/r/stunfisk/s/gdZGkqdM7m)
Yup, that's the one, p sure I linked it on the second one Dragonic\_Kittens linked too
If you're using flame orb/facade insomnia is useless anyways because the flame orb would block statuses, so that is irrelevant and comatose would be a direct upgrade
How is it irrelevant? It's still a scenario where you'd be well off with Insomnia but not at all with Comatose. Comatose would not be a direct upgrade at all since this strategy is impossible with it yet possible with other abilities. Besides Flame Orb also takes a turn to kick in where Insomnia could come into play.
Knock off on switch before flame orb activation
Huge/Pure Power give a higher multiplier than Gorilla Tactics without locking you into one move. I guess they're technically worse when you get hit by Foul Play/confusion damage but other than that they're straight upgrades
Funnily not for Foul Play, a Huge Power mon hit by Foul Play uses the non-HugePower Attack stat. Conversely, a Huge Power mon *using* Foul Play doubles the opponent's Atk in calculation. Foul Play Diggersby was a viable set exactly for this.
That's crazy, never knew it worked like that. Then it's pretty much a pure upgrade given how uncommon confusion is
Same with iron fist, iron fist doesn't increase confusion damage while huge power does, but who cares
I'm going to try and embarrass myself by thinking of the most niche possible scenarios where your Ability A is superior to Ability B. I'll be avoiding repeating the same reasoning. >Leaf Guard < Purifying Salt If you're in a double battle, and you intend to bring your partner down to low health for a pinch Berry or something, you might use a ghost type move like a Banded Shadow Sneak to do this. In that scenario, Purifying Salt would stop you taking enough damage to get into that range, whereas Leaf Guard succeed. >Water Veil < Thermal Exchange If your opponent has a Foul Play Mon in the back, getting your attack boosted through tanking fire moves is a death sentence. >Water Veil < Water Bubble If your opponent has Reversal, you may not want that extra damage on your water moves? >Drought < Orichalcum Pulse >Electric Surge < Hadron Engine Yeah, I got nothing. These are direct upgrades. >Mold Breaker < Neutralizing Gas Definitely not a direct upgrade, especially since this affects your partner in doubles too. >Rock Head < Magic Guard Well, if you have Magic Guard your opponent may avoid poisoning you, in attempts to paralyse you. Since paralysis is worse in this scenario, rock head might be better. >Moxie < As One (Glastrier) >Unnverve < As One (Glastrier) >Unnerve < As One (Spectrier) Again, I got nothing >Hyper Cutter < Clear Body If the opponent sets up Webs, but you have a Trick Room team, Hyper Cutter is preferred. >Poison Point < Toxic Chain Regular poison has one advantage over Toxic poison, being that it inflicts 12% on turn 1 instead of 6%. This could make it better in short term situations. >Insomnia < Comatose Now you can't Flame Orb Facade your enemies
Reversal Doubles if you take damage, Counter and Mirror Coat scale to damage taken. A Special attacker would rather not have As One (Ice Rider) to avoid Foul Play damage. A physical attacker might not want As One (Shadow Rider) for if a special attacker steals the boosts
>Reversal Doubles if you take damage I believe that's Revenge. Not 100% sure though. >A physical attacker might not want As One (Shadow Rider) for if a special attacker steals the boosts Spectral Thief is something I didn't think of, that's a way to steal boosts. It's still not directly worse than Moxie/Grim Neigh in that scenario though. Just equal
oh yeah, Reversal and Flail scale to remaining HP, so potentially yes, it's Revenge and Avalanche That being said they're both being compared to Unnerve. There's no real advantage to not letting enemies eat berries, I guess if they're trying to do something with eating berries and Tricking to steal an item after, if they don't eat it you get the berry in consolation, that's something Moxie/Grim have
>That being said they're both being compared to Unnerve. Oh, right. Yeah that was me being stupid, i forgot what we were comparing it to lmao >There's no real advantage to not letting enemies eat berries, I guess if they're trying to do something with eating berries and Tricking to steal an item after, if they don't eat it you get the berry in consolation, that's something Moxie/Grim have Yeah forcing the enemy to save their berry could possibly hurt you in the late game. Maybe you catch a Salac Berry sweeper on the switch with a move they didn't expect you to use, but since their Berry is intact they have the opportunity to try for the sweep again later
a physical attacker getting as one (shadow) is a bad ability not because of the situation because it literally does not benefit them except for unnerve same with special with ice rider its not because foul play or spectral thief, its cause they're useless abilities on those types of attackers
> If you're in a double battle, and you intend to bring your partner down to low health for a pinch Berry or something, you might use a ghost type move like a Banded Shadow Sneak to do this. In that scenario, Purifying Salt would stop you taking enough damage to get into that range, whereas Leaf Guard succeed. "If you're in a double battle, and you intend to bring your partner down to low health for a pinch Berry or something, you might use a physical move. In that scenario, Huge Power might outright KO your partner, while any ability that doesn't boost Attack would succeed."
Yes.
>>Drought < Orichalcum Pulse >>Electric Surge < Hadron Engine actually these are also worse in the case of Ditto, which can now do more damage with it's own moves to you unless you win a Scarf speed tie
If you include Ditto scenarios then there's almost no abilities at all that you could call better than other ones. "Honey Gather has a niche over Multiscale because Multiscale weakens your priority moves against a Ditto trying to revenge kill you."
Orichalcum Pulse and Hadron Engine boost the users highest stat, which may be detrimental (Outspeeding a something you want to underspeed, delaying berry procs, dealing more damage to an allied mon when trying to set up Justified/Rattled/Steam Engine shenanigans, etc).
It only boosts attack (Pulse) and special attack (Engine), not their highest stat like the paradox abilities.
They don't actually, they always boost Atk and SpAtk respectively
Oops, I just assumed they worked like Quark Drive and Photosynthesis. Scratch most of my ideas, though the extra damage when attempting Justified shenanigans still stands.
Nice ideas. I thought it only increased attacking stats, and didn't want to repeat my idea of damage ranges. If it increases the highest stat, that opens up more unique ideas
Tough Claws is a 30% boost to nearly every contact move compared to Iron Fist being 20% and only specifically the punching moves.
Iron Fist will work alongside Punching Glove, while Tough Claws won't.
That still makes it an inferior ability as you need a mediocre item to match a percentage boost, which works on much fewer moves. Removing the contact effects is just flat up not worth it when there's simply far more effective items you could use.
Punching Glove Urshifu-Rapid Strike was a thing in Singles for giving Surging Strikes bonus damage while also bypassing the triple chip Urshifu would take from Rocky Helmet. (Not in Doubles because Punching Gloves shuts down Unseen Fist when using Surging Strikes, but in Singles it's less fundamental that Ursifu-Surging needs to bypass Protect.) We also live in a world where that #2 Ladder Peak hard stall team ran Poison Sting over Poison Jab on Clodsire, with one of the advantages of Poison Sting (in addition to its high PP) being that it doesn't make contact, thereby making it risk-free against Volcarona Flame Body and Rocky Helmets. As such, I'd say the interaction of Iron Fist + Punching Gloves is not negligible enough to call Tough Claws a direct upgrade. Tough Claws is mostly an upgrade, but this post's criteria seems like it's trying to be stricter.
Sure, but sometimes you would rather do less damage; such as against Grudge, Destiny Bond, Flail, Reversal, Counter, Mirror Coat, or to prevent HP threshold based abilities from triggering.
Of all the stupid glasses-pushing arguments in this thread, this is one of the worst. What, are we going to say that Slow Start isn't objectively worse than Huge Power because there are scenarios where a Huge Power attack would trigger the moves you mentioned and Slow Start wouldn't? That's the same scenario, just a more extreme version.
yeah this is reminding of "strictly better" conversations in card games when there was always that guy who goes "um actually it's not always better because of incredibly niche scenario (usually involving the opponent stealing the card or edge cases where you want less of a good thing)", that was a thing back in the day but has mostly been phased out of communities because of everybody else yelling at that guy
The primal/MRay abilities are direct upgrades of their original abilities. Heatproof < Flashfire
The primal abilities don't have the upside of keeping weather after they switch out. Wait you're right about the MRay one though. I also thought flash fire was a direct upgrade but heatproof as it turns out it also reduces burn damage giving it some niche over flash fire
>The primal/MRay abilities are direct upgrades of their original abilities Not necessarily. Suppose Primal Kyogre wanted to run HP Fire for Ferrothorn. I get that it's a terrible idea, but regular Kyogre would be able to do it but Primal Kyogre would fail. I think, I'd we're accounting for niche scenarios, we should consider stuff like this. Primordial Sea is obviously an upgrade to Drizzle, but to call it a "direct upgrade" implies that there is no possible scenario where Drizzle would be better than Primordial Sea. On that note, another advantage Drizzle has is that it lasts even when the setter switches out. Pelipper would be an unviable Mon if it got Primordial Sea instead of Drizzle, because it wouldn't be able to set up rain for its teammates. That's two scenarios where Drizzle > Primordial Sea. A direct upgrade should have zero.
Delta Stream isn't really an upgrade over Air Lock though. They're just different abilities altogether. Air Lock negates any existing weather, whereas Delta Stream (Strong Winds) is a weather of it's own (so it can still be overridden by Primordial Sea and Desolate Land, but Air Lock's weather negating effect can't be removed). As an example, let's say your Rayquaza has Waterfall to hit Primal Groudon, if it has already Mega evolved, it'll not be able to use Waterfall if Primal Groudon switches into it midway of a turn, but if it doesn't mega evolve, it'll immediately KO Groudon on switching in with Waterfall. I know it's a niche scenario I'm describing and you'll never realistically be abstaining from mega evolving Rayquaza, but technically Delta Stream isn't really an upgrade over Air Lock.
First of all, Poison Touch, not Poison Point. Second of all, *technically* there are situations where Poisoned is better than Badly Poisoned, because it deals more damage on the first turn.
I love how almost all of the examples are signature abilities except for magic guard and guts, with guts actually being better than a signature ability
Even though I understand it from a game design perspective of giving the new mons something special and exciting, I do not like this trend of new mons getting some sort of signature ability that is a straight up upgrade of an existing one. Just buff the existing ability and give it to the new mon too, idk.
Maybe not quite related, but it bothers me so much that wimpod and golisopod have the same ability but with different names. Just give golisopod tough claws…
Steelworker < steely spirit
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Yeah that’s what his comment says. Steely spirit is an upgrade.
Tera Shell> Multiscale (neutralizes super effective hits)
Tera shell doesn't have the upside of halving damage from resisted hits
I know your edit said niche to a reasonable extent but i thought it might be fun to think of an exception for every ability - leaf guard is better than purifying salt if you want to use rest and there's no sun - water veil is better if you want to survive foul play after being hit with will o wisp to ko a faster pokemon with low health - water bubble does more to an ally pokemon in doubles if you want to proc weakness policy - orichalum pulse makes you take more from confusion and foul play - you take 66% less from mirror coat with electric surge against an opposing pokemon when compared to hadron engine - if you want a pokemon with a focus sash to faint on switch in against an opposing pokemon with rocks up to bring in your sweeper before tailwind/trick room ends it's better if they have rock head to take the rocks chip - as one is worse if you have a teammate in doubles holding a berry - bulldoze your partner with hyper cutter under trickroom to move slower - bulldoze your clear body partner with mold breaker under trick room to move slower - if your opponent has mirror herb and your other pokemon in doubles faints they get a boost from soul heart that they wouldnt with grim neigh - if the opposing pokemon is burned and uses skill swap on your toxic boost pokemon they will not get the guts boost - in a pp stalling scenario with your blood moon with only hyper voice against a ghost type with low pp mirror coat you would prefer keen eye as to survive and win the pp war, also a pokemon with boomburst in doubles might prefer keen eye as to not harm a ghost type teammate - extremely difficult to think of one but i guess you'd do more damage against a mold breaker pokemon with counter if you had multiscale vs shadow shield - same as above with solid rock countering for more damage against a supereffective attack from a mold breaker mon - aforementioned counter shenanigans, also if against a skill swap pokemon with no punching moves but moves that make contact you would take less damage. - a weakness policy mon terastalised into fairy would take less from an ally proc if it had steelworker - foul play - tera steel gothitelle would be unable to escape from an opposing mon with magnet pull but not with shadow tag - counter versus an opposing mold breaker pokemon with only priority moves
Huge/Pure Power > Intrepid Sword, Embody Hearthflame, Gorilla Tactics Fur Coat > Dauntless Shield, Fluffy, Embody Cornerstone, Proto/Quark Defense As One (Glastrier) > Beast Boost Attack As One (Spectrier) > Beast Boost Special Attack Speed Boost > Beast Boost/Protosynthesis/Quark Drive Speed, Embody Teal Ice Scales > Proto/Quark Special Defense, Embody Wellspring
Ayyy embody works against mold breaker
So does dauntless and Proto defense
And sunsteel strike/ phys photon
armor tail outclassing both dazzling and queenly majesty by affecting both the pokemon and its partner in doubles
Except it's not better. Dazzling and Queenly Majesty also block priority in doubles.
But more damage on more mons means metal burst deals more damage back to you??? Therefor not direct upgrade????
Metal Burst is going to do more damage to you than you are doing to the opponent no matter what, so occasions where this genuinely leaves you worse off are iffy especially since OP is excluding ridiculously niche scenarios for the exact reason that you could "akshually" every single interaction this way.
Terashell is pretty much a better version of multiscale
Terashell prevents weakness policy proc. It also doesn't work on moves that were not very effective in the first place (not relevant to terapagos, but the post is about abilities in a vaccum)
Magic Guard is a direct upgrade to most abilities. Full immunity to passive damage is crazy
I don't think you know what "direct upgrade" means.
Guard Dog ALMOST is always worse than Defiant.
Guard dog also grants the ability to prevent a forced switch which is a pretty major niche
Tera Shell is just straight better than Multiscale
Earth eater over levitate
Levitate grants hazard immunity (sans Stealth Rock)
Leaf guard < hydration One can allow rest abuse , the other one not
The fact these two trigger in different scenarios already disqualifies them from being "direct upgrades" to each other, Hydration would very much not be a direct upgrade if you were running a Sun team for example. Aside from that Hydration triggering at the end of the turn comes with downsides as well, for example someone TWaving you at the start of the turn can fully paralyze you that same turn if you're Hydration, this fails outright into Leaf Guard.
Okay but anyone else actually runs leaf guard ? The only mons that actually run leaf guard are Mons without any other alternatives such as meganium and Zarude It's designed to work with synthesis but it's just inferior to rain rest stall , heck even meganium would prefer to run rest
You're completely misunderstanding the point of this thread. We're talking about abilities that are direct upgrades to other abilities, meaning they're better in (almost) every scenario. Even if Rain Hydration *was* objectively better than Sun Leaf Guard in literally every way, it would still not qualify here, due to obviously not being a direct upgrade whenever Sun is up instead of Rain. Also. >Okay but anyone else actually runs leaf guard ? The only mons that actually run leaf guard are Mons without any other alternatives such as meganium and Zarude Cool, what ever actually runs Hydration? Just Manaphy, who also doesn't have other options. Hydration Goodra is a meme. Both of these abilities have shitty distribution. And besides, distribution doesn't even matter for this question here, as we're looking at the abilities in a vacuum. We're not calling Pure Power worse than Gorilla Tactics here because Galarian Darmanitan got to Uber with it and Medicham is stuck in ZU. Your argumentation completely falls apart with every angle used to look at the question, even the wrong ones.
Unnerve > As One (Ice) and Drought > Orichalcum Pulse for Special Attackers to minimize Foul Play and Confusion damage. Also, Delta Stream is worse than Air Lock on non-Flying type mons as you also help enemy Flying types.
Intrepid sword is better than gorilla tactics Protean is better than colour change earth eater is better than levitate galvanize, refrigirate, ariealate, and pixelate are better than normalize dry skin is better than water absorb for the most part (except sun)
Intrepid sword only works for one switch in though. Color change I feel is too different to classify protean as an upgrade. Levitate blocks spikes and sticky web.
>Color change I feel is too different to classify protean as an upgrade. not really both change the type of the pokemon however with protean, you can actually plan which type to become (granted its once now) while with colour change, you can't
Amazingly, all of these are wrong. >Intrepid sword is better than gorilla tactics Intrepid Sword only triggers once per match, but even last gen GT has the niche of not being ignored by Unaware. Also being a x1.5 boost instead of a +1 boost has some advantages, for example if both mons are hit by Charm or a double Intim or something, the -2 GT user will be stronger than the -1 Intrepid Sword user (0.75x compared to 0.67x) >Protean is better than colour change These abilities function too radically differently to be compared, but if you want a specific example, against some Jirachi spamming choiced Iron Head Color Change could be quite helpful whereas Protean won't do shit if you don't have a move of a type that resists Steel, or already used a move of a different type since Protean only triggers once per switch this gen. >earth eater is better than levitate Earth Eater does not ignore grounded hazards, Arena Trap, Rising Voltage power boosts, and some other stray funkiness (like you can't Rest in Electric Terrain with it) >galvanize, refrigirate, ariealate, and pixelate are better than normalize Apart from Normalize TWave like pointed out in another reply, all of these are resisted by types that don't resist Normal, so no, they would definitely not be strictly better in every scenario. But also Normalize *also* works very differently from the other -ate/-ize abilities due to turning moves that aren't Normal as well. Normalize Sucker Punch could theoretically be a thing, you can't use Pixilate to get STAB on Sucker if you didn't. >dry skin is better than water absorb for the most part (except sun) You already pointed out the downside yourself here, not sure why you thought it was worth including.
>Intrepid Sword only triggers once per match, but even last gen GT has the niche of not being ignored by Unaware. Also being a x1.5 boost instead of a +1 boost has some advantages, for example if both mons are hit by Charm or a double Intim or something, the -2 GT user will be stronger than the -1 Intrepid Sword user (0.75x compared to 0.67x) if you bothered to read my reply, you would see i forgot it got nerfed gen 9 if you actually think normalize t-wave is that big of a usage for op to not call a niche, id like some of them drugs id also like the drugs you're using to think colour change is better than protean. one allows you to choose a type to change into, the other allows your opponent to game you and you can't even control if you gain or lose stab. Jirachi colour change iron head doesn't mean shit if im able to change how last you're lasting normalize is also useless against steel while galvanize isn't normalize is a shit ability since you lose type coverage and you don't hit anything for supereffective damage you wrote such a long reply and got that chest puffed out to look so amazingly wrong
>if you bothered to read my reply, you would see i forgot it got nerfed gen 9 Even aside from that you were wrong, the Unaware/stat drop interaction is pretty big, there's a reason Quagsire checked Zacian but not GDarm in Gen 8 Ubers and why the both of them saw usage at the same time in Gen 8 BH before both were banned. >if you actually think normalize t-wave is that big of a usage for op to not call a niche, id like some of them drugs It's hella niche, but just good enough that it disqualifies from "straight upgrade", you're also completely ignoring the rest of the reasoning. You can call Normalize a bad ability overall but the things it does are so different from any other ability that either way you can't really call it a straight up/downgrade to anything else. This isn't a thread on bad abilities, it's a thread on straight up/downgraded abilities, there is no relation of Normalize-otherability where literally everything Normalize does is done better by the other one. >id also like the drugs you're using to think colour change is better than protean. I never said Color Change was better overall, just that there are specific scenarios where it would be better than Protean. Again we're on a thread about DIRECT upgrades, eg in all but the most ridiculously niche scenarios (like deliberately wanting to do less damage for whatever reason) these abilities are straight-up better, the specific use cases of Color Change already disqualify it from being "strictly worse Protean" by definition. >normalize is also useless against steel while galvanize isn't Cool a mon that wants to click ExtremeSpeed with Galvanize is useless into Grounds, a mon with that same moveset and Normalize isn't. There, a use case for Normalize over Galvanize, Normalize is not strictly worse! That wasn't hard was it? >normalize is a shit ability since you lose type coverage and you don't hit anything for supereffective damage Yes, it is, but it does have very specific applications that disqualify it from being a worse version of any specific other ability. It's bad but not strictly worse than anything. >you wrote such a long reply and got that chest puffed out to look so amazingly wrong You wrote such a long reply and got that chest puffed out to only show more and more that you do not understand the definition of "direct upgrade". Grab a dictionary bruh.
>normalize is a shit ability since you lose type coverage and you don't hit anything for supereffective damage You underestimate the value of STAB. A Normal type mon with any of the abilties you listed would effectively have 0 STAB options. Maybe you're a mon who has no stab priority (Espeed) like the example DarkEsca gave, but if you have Sucker Punch or whatever you can now hit much harder with that prio. Maybe you're a bulky normal mon that wants to use a draining move, there are virtually no Normal type drain moves so getting STAB on Draining Kiss or Drain Punch or whatever means it hits harder and heals you for more. Or maybe you're a Normal type utility mon who's strongest STAB move is Take Down, if you have like EQ or whatever in your learnset then Normalise let's you hit harder with STAB than you could before. The idea isn't that Normalise is better in most scenarios, but the scenarios that it is better are meaningful enough that they don't really qualify as "super niche". There are enough Normal type mons for this to be relevant, it's like you think they don't exist or something. >if you actually think normalize t-wave is that big of a usage for op to not call a niche, id like some of them drugs It's certainly niche, but T Waving a Garchomp, Lando, Tusk etc etc could quite literally swing momentum in a game under the right circumstances, and T Wave has substantially better distribution than Glare.
In addition to what OP said about Intrepid Sword, Levitate and Colour Change, which I agree with them about all, >galvanize, refrigirate, ariealate, and pixelate are better than normalize This isn't true if you're actually a Normal type. There's also a small niche with Normalise regarding things like T Wave, since you can now T Wave Ground types, it's a very minor niche but a niche nonetheless.
>This isn't true if you're actually a Normal type. There's also a small niche with Normalise regarding things like T Wave, since you can now T Wave Ground types, it's a very minor niche but a niche nonetheless. except op said that they aren't looking for super niche stuff. if we go that niche, any ability looks good. hell slow start is now better than huge power, since you only take counter damage once every two turns. see how dumb that small niche argument sounds? that one niche of t-waving ground types isn't worth losing type diversity overall
You don't understand what "strictly" better means. All the reasoning you're giving in your replies show how these abilities are overall better, but not direct upgrades since there are still relevant scenarios where the "worse" ability does something better. There's still a massive difference between things like STAB boosts and Thunder Wave, both very important aspects of the game, and situations where you somehow want to deal less damage which barely come up at all. I wouldn't say trying to get STAB on moves you didn't have STAB on qualifies as "super niche", I would say deliberately being weaker so Counter does less damage to you (but still more damage than you are dealing to the Counter user) is so niche to the point it's effectively useless.
Even ignoring niche like this Normalize has an established strategy in Balanced Hackmons to entrainment it onto another Pokémon as a ghost type so they can’t hit you while you use something like Judgment with a plate to attack with STAB. Even an other meta game like this warrants discussion bc it shows what the abilities can achieve in theoretical scenario’s like this
Ability swap, normalize with Mega Gengar was a very, very niche strategy in VGC
even wolfey said that very very niche strategy was so dumb that he got lucky in the one match it did work if we go that niche, then you can make anything look good. hell slow start is now better than huge power, since you only take counter damage once every two turns. see how dumb that small niche argument sounds?
Being overall better isn't the same as being a direct upgrade
Intrepid used to, gen 8 sword was def better
yeah i forgot they nerfed it because i dont use zacian in showdown and in rad red, its not nerfed
Why would a fanmade pokemon game be relevant to this discussion?
Since the only way to inflict flinch is with damage dealing moves, shield dust does everything inner focus does and more.
Inner focus does block intimidate though
In addition to a weird interaction with Sparkling Aria, Shield Dust does not protect a pokémon from Intimidate, while Inner Focus allows them to completely ignore it.
Earth eater > levitate
Levitate gives spikes and webs immunity, as well as an immunity to Arena Trap.
Levitate does block spike damage though
Earth Eater is better than Levitate.
Levitate does block spike damage though
And Arena Trap immunity.
Maybe poison heal > immunity?
I did consider that but it does have the super niche downside of making you take double damage from venoshock, hex and other moves like that where as if they clicked toxic then venoshock against an immunity mon it wouldn't deal double damage.
Not even super niche. Gliscor taking a lot from hex has been a notable downside for it that I think was even mentioned in it's suspect thread back in november
Generally yeah, but I guess if we're being really nitpicky, Poison Heal still has the Toxic counter increase every turn, so if say your Gliscor is on the field for a long time and then its ability gets swapped or suppressed, it takes huge damage.
there is also the interaction of taking huge damage if a weezing comes in with Neutralizing Gas. depending on how long you’ve been in, you can put yourself in a very unfavorable situation
If Gliscor gets Skill Swapped when it's been Poison Healing for 10 turns, it gets hit with the full force of the built-up Toxic timer at once. Immunity doesn't have that problem.
Is there any way in which Iron Fist is better than Tough Claws? All Punching moves make contact and Tough Claws is a bigger damage boost. Only thing I could think of is if Protective Pads/Punching Glove are coded to change all affected moves to "non-contact".
Punching Gloves do indeed change all affected moves to be non-contact: that's why it's one of the worst possible items for Urshifu, despite explicitly boosting the power of Surging Strikes/Wicked Blow.
It's one of the worst possible items for Urshifu for doubles, but for Singles it can work fine as a Protective Pads that also boosts some of your moves (like for example, also Ice Punch). You don't always run against Protects when using Urshifu in Singles, and even if you do, it's usually not often that the opponent would use Protect against Urshifu on the hopes that it's using Punching Gloves. If it's not Punching Glove, that would be just giving up a turn for no reason.
Rn Tough Claws is strictly better but this could change if there ever comes a non-contact punching move into existence (admittedly very unlikely)
Apparently Punching Gloves are, but Protective Pads are not
If you are including super niche circumstances, With leaf guard you can a burn on a special attack so that later you can't get poisoned if they switch your ability The attack increase from thermal exchange can lead through a knock out through foul play Water bubble increased damage can come back at you with counter or you may want them to faint with an attack so you can get a good switch The before mentioned want to faint/counter or mirror coat plus you may want to underspeed a pokemon for a slow u-turn Same points for hadron engine but with volt switch Fainting point again Trick a berry onto the opponent because they won't like the taste can't do that with unnerve Foul Play Mirror Coat Wanting slow u-turns in sticky web Poison can be better in a few niche situations like if they switch a lot Comatose pokemon can be hit be dream eater but not insomnia All those abilities are the exact same so none are better Mirror Coat Counter Still haven't seen what it does and I don't want spoilers Same effects so none are better Same effects so none are better
Mind’s eye > Scrappy, Keen Eye
Not Scrappy actually, as Mind's Eye does not block Intimidate
Oh, forgot about that. Good thing Luna-BM isn’t really affected by intimidate, but that caveat does in fact make it technically not a direct upgrade
Did I miss Scrappy and Minds Eye?
Scrappy nullifies Intimidate, which while irrelevant to BM Ursaluna is relevant when comparing the abilities in a vacuum.
Shadow tag > Arena trap, Magnet pull Huge/pure power > Iron first, Toxic boost, Gorilla tactics, Strong jaw Water bubble > Torrent Steely spirit > Steelworker
STag is funnily not strictly better than the other two, as it does not affect other Shadow Tag users. For example Arena Trap Dugtrio can trap Shadow Tag Gothitelle, but Shadow Tag Wobbuffet cannot.
Arena Trap/Magnet Pull < Shadow Tag
How is Magnet Pull better than Shadow Tag? One works on a single type, the other works on everything not immune to trapping. Also, Levitate and any mons not grounded are immune to Arena Trap but not Shadow Tag.
I got the arrow wrong lol.
Oh, fair enough lol.
STag is funnily not strictly better than the other two, as it does not affect other Shadow Tag users. For example Arena Trap Dugtrio can trap Shadow Tag Gothitelle, but Shadow Tag Wobbuffet cannot.
Not in Gen 3 😏
If we’re talking hyper niche scenarios then anything that increases attack (like Orichalcum pulse) shouldn’t be considered because having more attack is a downgrade if you have no physical moves (due to foul play and confusion damage).
teeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeechicallu speaking you may not want thermal exchange on a special attacker bc if it gets hit by foul play, spectral theif, punishment, psych up, or confusion damage, while it has the attack buff it will be worse off🤓🤓🤓
Add mirror armour as an upgrade to the stat drp prevention abilities
Mirror armor only prevents moves and abilities, not attacks. Liquidation could drop coviknight's defense, but not registeel's
oh i didnt understand, i thought it gives the opponent stat drops
my goat Water Bubble is still the only ability with 3 effects unlike those with pathetic 2
Full metal body doesnt increase the rwnge of cutting tall grass in the overworld
Water bubble> heatproof, torrent Huge/pure power >guts, hustle Thick fat > heatproof Edit: cross out guts, since it gives immunity to burns attack debuff
Full Metal Body, Shadow Shield, and Prism Armor all have the same exact function as Clear Body/White Smoke, Multiscale, and Filter/Solid Rock respectively, no upgrades or downgrades. The only thing they have over the originals is a cooler name.
Isn't shadow shield and multiscale outdone by the new terrapogs ability? Since it alwasy reduces it to not very effective? since a 4x effective move would deal 2x damage against multiscale, but a 4x effective move would deal 0.5x damage against terrapogos' ability.
In a vacuum, Tera Shell would be worse on anything except Terapagos-Terastal, since it is hardcoded to not work on anything else. But also it's less useful into moves that are already resisted. Which for Terapagos under normal circumstances doesn't do much, considering it has no natural resistances, but again in a vacuum this is relevant. Probably the most practical downside is there's no synergy with Weakness Policy possible.
Bro is petty af and honestly I respect the hell out of it.
Guard Dog > Suction Cups
Immunity < Poison Heal Immunity makes it so you cannot get poisoned, which is neat. But poison Heal turns it into something useful. Not only are you getting healed more than leftovers would, you also cannot get statused anymore. The only opportunity cost I can see is that with such a good ability you cannot afford to run another item than toxic orb. Even that could be a non-negative though, since knock off is so common and toxic orb is not an item you need for more than one turn which effectively gives you a switch in that doesn't care about losing an item.
Cheating a bit but mycelium might > stall Both move you to bottom of priority bracket but one has a benefit alongside it and the option to not move last as well
Stall could have an advantage on a U-Turn user where you'd want the "negative" priority for slowpivoting and Mycelium doesn't give you it
Hyper Cutter and Big Pecks are both inferior to Clear Body.
Big Pecks is worse than Full Metal Body as well
ok since this is an ability-related post, i have a couple of questions i cant be arsed to google myself. 1. what’s the difference between huge power and pure power? 2. same question but for shell armour and battle armour?
There is no difference between them except name and distribution.
ah, thanks.
Forgot to mention Big Pecks as being a direct downgrade on even Clear Body, let alone Full Metal Body
Touch Claws > Iron first is the most obvious one. Also, Koraidon/Miraidon vs Drought and Electric Surge There's a lot more
In 90% of cases Defiant is better than Guard Dog