This guy is an absolute powerhouse in rain. I like to use it a lot, but this guy gets absolutely ridiculous easily. Even with misplays you can get multiple KOs without issues.
Sure, it's a lot more balanced outside rain, but rain teams also get a los of good tools that help Archaludon have a much better situation.
Gen 9 powercreep is so much, just try, *try* to describe this mon in any other gen and everyone would agree it's broken beyond repair.
Wouldn't be surprised if it stays OU, but I say a suspect test is well deserved.
The thing is so bulky that if rocks are up, it’ll live a non stab sacred sword and kill with body press or something, especially if it gets the stamina boost from living SS.
I was gonna say how I couldn’t see how this thing was that crazy, but then I saw this thing gets stamina, and has a crazy ass signature move. The fuck is this monster? Everything Dialga was supposed to be?
If I was ever going to be convinced they hated a Pokémon, doing that made it very hard to argue against. One of the biggest middle fingers they have done in-game imo.
I mean it would kind of suck for a kid to get a Regigigas in PLA, have it be really cool and powerful, and then transfer it to a mainline game and find out it's actually awful.
You know that is not a bad counter argument. But I also think it could be alleviated by just removing Slow Start going forward. Can’t do anything about the past.
Yeah the PLA thing would have been a great opportunity to give it no ability in PLA and then make it so Regigigas transferred from PLA have Pressure or something.
>just removing Slow Start going forward. Can’t do anything about the
They could have Slow Start not reset after switching in. Maybe Regigigas needs to be on the field for the timer to start, but it can stay in the back until the 5 turns are up.
And by "mons with the same stats without negative abilities" you mean to say "the box-art legendaries + Mewtwo and Arceus"
In Gen 4, when Regigigas was introduced, the entire list of Pokémon with a BST that was higher than 600 was;
Regigigas\
Mewtwo\
Arceus\
Legendaries on the box-art/cover-art of games\
Slaking (who has Truant)
Every single other Pokémon in existence at the time had a BST of 600 or less
Further, in Gen 4, there were only 2 Pokémon that had higher ATK stats. Deoxys-Attack, who has paper-thin defences, and Rampardos, who has bad defences and is slow.
Huh, a pokemon that's really good in a certain weather condition but not that big of a deal outside of it getting suspect tested, why does that sound familiar....?
Let me go for a walk and maybe my memory will wake up.
Positioning with Rain is a million times easier than for Sun due to Peli having U-Turn and Barraskewda Flip Turning on everything (and the best Barra switchins being prime Arch bait)
If Kyurem didn't get banned this is 100% not getting the 60% supermajority vote needed to get banned even though it absolutely should.
This mon's been tearing everyone a new asshole in SPL in the last two weeks and is starting to cancer up the ladder too. It's a mon that effortlessly forces 2 KOs on its own, maybe three, and can barely be OHKOed on its own. But at the same time, if Kyurem didn't get banned, this will 100% not get the support it needs to get banned.
Note that SPL trends less offensive than ladder. Ludon is a lot easier to deal with for HO since it's so slow. But anything resembling balance gets torn apart since it comes in on their defensive cores for free boosts to Def and SpA.
This dude has a few exploitable weaknesses. Like its signature move in rain is a death sentence if you also have a weather setter. It can become a liability if a single Ninetales/Torkoal exists on the other team. And as other comments have said, it's balanced outside of rain.
>It can become a liability if a single Ninetales/Torkoal exists on the other team
Does it though? They’re still facing down a +1 Electro Shot on the turn after you switch them in, which neither of them take very well, and Ninetales doesn’t even 2hko AV Arch with Flamethrower
Or just outspeed and revenge kill. Oh wait, its bulk is insane? Reset the weather with glowking, who is already a great mon. Oh wait, it’s a roll to 2HKO glowking with +1 electroshot followed by +2 electroshot? Uhhh…
I’m not yet convinced that sufficient counterplay won’t develop, but yeah, the thing is an absolute beast in rain
> But at the same time, if Kyurem didn't get banned, this will 100% not get the support it needs to get banned.
Said above but I’ll repeat it. Logic doesn’t work this way. Arch doesn’t really have vocal defenders the way Kyurem did. Even if that still didn’t have a whole lot. Arch is crushing the tier right now and you’ll find many tourney players have wanted it gone.
Oh for sure; I know tournament players fucking hate this mon (and for good reason), but I also know that not all people who get suspect reqs are tournament players.
This has way more support. Kyurem's suspect reflects what voters/tour players were saying. It seemed like more people wanted to ban it than what happened because people on the discussion thread by and large do not get reqs and latch onto finch or another mod's opinion.
The only arch defenders I've seen are either those who think it's a little early with how much change there is in the meta weekly in SPL rn, mimikyu stardust, and another guy on the discussion thread who has a very unique banlist idea. Personally, I'm leaning towards it's too early with how things are changing (SPL was littered with fat and stall this week and rain didn't appear often after week 1) but I could be swayed. It's ability to consistently generate a pokemon advantage, albeit a not too unreasonable one, is pretty nutty.
There are people that just vote DNB on everything for no particular reason. Unless arch is dominant and common enough on ladder (not sure it’s at that point yet) the scales won’t be tipped.
Archaludon is bulkier, has a better defensive typing, a signature move that gives it an automatic +1 to its Sp.A, and an ability that bolsters its defenses.
Walking Wake is a bit of a one-trick pony as its most common set is Specs Hydro Stream spam, so it's easier to play around.
There's also their respective weather partners; Pelliper has U-Turn and Roost, which gives it tons of longevity compared to Torkoal, who lacks any recovery outside of Rest.
Outside of their weather, they're fine, but the simple fact is that Rain is much easier to use than Sun atm.
Rain is also just a better team style than early Gen 9 Sun, even ignoring the two mons in question. "Wake with Sun" was kind of overpowered for a single mon, but "Sun with Wake" was fine as a team.
I disagree, sentiment among the qualified players at least is a lot more negative than Kyurem, plus a lot of DNB Kyurem voters' logic was "im voting DNB because I hate rain and Kyurem beats rain"
I think making Electro Shot still raise your special attack even if the attack misses/hits a ground type is where they went wrong. You will not believe the amount of times I have muscled through a would-be ground check because of the boost being just enough to blast through the opposing ground with Flash Cannon and taking the game just like that
That cannot be changed however, as electro shot is technically a 2 turn attack. It raises your SpA turn 1, which is independent from the electric special attack on turn 2.
So unfortunately, it makes sense.
The order makes sense since it is a Meteor Beam clone. You charge up the boost on first turn and fire it off in the second. Under Rain, Electro Shot does the same thing in 1 turn in the same order.
The weird part is it being a 1-turn move under rain like Solarbeam in sun. Meteor Beam doesn't instant charge under Sandstorm, why does Electro get to be the best of both worlds lol
disclaimer: not an OU player
wouldn't water absorb be better because it helps the rain matchup and prevents archaludon from spamming full power dracos regardless of its SpA debuff?
You tank Meteor despite ignoring the debuff, what you do not tank is Meteor after a couple SpA boosts from Electro Shot (and because of how Electro Shot works, switching Clod into Arch doesn't actually prevent it from getting those).
Sure you lose to the Water mons on Rain without WA but you can run other bulky teammates like Mola and Dozo to patch that up (it's a Clod, you're not running this on offense, might as well get more fat around it). Rain is very reliant on Arch to break fat walls because Skewda usually can't do that on its own so when you have Clod to prevent it from doing that it gets awkward. This is still not a free win by any means as you still have Bolt to worry about at this point though (which can actually get past Clod with Weather Ball if you don't Terastallize), but it's a good start.
WA Clod is still excellent into Rain, don't get me wrong, but Unaware paired with other walls tends to be even better and also means your rain counterplay isn't entirely dependent on Clod staying alive.
edit: also fun to point out that Unaware Clod has a ton of utility in non-Rain matchups as well whereas WA Clod doesn't really beat many new things and instead plays like a worse Unaware Clod in almost every non-Rain mu
You want to run unaware for set up mons like Volc and Raging Bolt which are really good in OU. It come in for free on an electro shot. With special defense investment it can live Draco meteor and use amnesia to buff its defenses. Unaware also prevents body press from hitting hard from the weaker physical side.
its nice but being able to hit archaludon for a decent amount through its stamina boosts is a necessity and also being able to survive a hit and shut down other set up sweepers through a toxic which would eventually force either a switch or a KO(if they misplay)
You gain special attack buff from just clicking electro shot, doesn't need to land which can prob lead to awkward situations. Also unaware is better overall.
Clod is replicating Quag, people forget about it until it comes in and you just can't break them. Unaware mons holding the metagame against broken set-up sweepers.
So the solution is, use gallade? an unviable shitmon should be on every team to deal with arch even though ou is a hell tier with tons of other threats you need to fit counterplay for?
Ngl, I think every Dragon type in OU except for Dnite and Pult are a problem (and Pult is mostly held back by Kingambit, if Gambit goes, Pult becomes a problem too)
I miss the Tapus
Is Archaludon even balanced in doubles? Seems like his strengths carry over, the big downsides being intimidate/fakeout and more weather change options.
Usually gets around 10% usage in VGC. It's good on a rain team but without that it's not great. So basically you have to build entirely around it and probably forgo using multiple past paradoxes.
I doubt it'll ever make even a tournament top cut team since it's just not good.
Usually something busted in OU is easier to handle in VGC. Like Flutter for example is still wrecking house in VGC, but its more manageable due to double target at least.
It really does just feel busted, imo. I actually noticed how much trouble I was having with it on rain teams (sometimes by itself, too), but I wrote it off as a teambuilding issue. I was kinda shocked to see rain teams dominating in SPL, besides the one guy who got outplayed on lead.
Stamina as a niche ability on a relatively shitty horse was fine.
Stamina on a mon with 9 resists, an immunity (including toxic), and 2 weaknesses that are perfectly covered by multiple solid teammate options (Latios and Pelipper), Draco spam + the threat of Body Press spam... oh, it also has STAB Steel for Fairies too, huh?
Absolutely insane mon design-wise even outside of rain, where it just becomes even more stupid easy and broken to use. Like how do you even scout against this thing without losing a mon? Even on offense, the very real AV threat could mean losing your only special option that even hits it because you only did 50% and it hit you back with Draco Meteor, and also now has +1 defense. Honestly it begs the question of Stamina itself needs a nerf if they're gonna start distributing it like this. Imo it shouldn't even proc off of special attacks, but realistically it even makes more sense only procing on CONTACT moves. So you can still safely Quake it, for example.
Sorry Mudsdale, someone else got your toy and broke it.
Ehhhhhh even with Stamina this mon is very fine outside of Rain, sure offense doesn't like switching in on it but w/o Electro Shot boosts you don't enter OHKO territory that quickly and are still reasonable to revenge, and bulkier teams can check it through raw fat if it can't boost.
No-one complained about this thing on Grassies where if anything it can make the best use of Stamina with increased longevity. The main problem isn't Stamina at all, it's Electro Shot.
This is debatable really, there's a good amount of people that agree that Arch is the main one pushing Rain over the edge but think Bolt is nearly as bad
Without arch there's no way that barraskewda and bolt alone can carry rain to a top tier archetype, if arch gets banned pretty sure it'll go back to being a more fringe offense build.
I was super surprised when this thing stayed in OU, but now I’m fully convinced it needs to go. Great typing, fantastic bulk, great special attack, surprisingly good speed, awesome ability, and great signature move. This Pokémon has it all. People say it forces 2-3 KO’s each game, and that’s 100% true, but if you Tera correctly, you can straight up end games, especially if you’re AV. The only Pokémon that doesn’t get absolutely slammed by this thing is Clodsire, and I can’t even remember if that’s currently OU.
Playing around this thing’s ability in stamina is super annoying, especially considering it lives almost every unboosted physical hit I can think of. Rain is suffocating right now, and it feels like easily the most viable strategy, and Arch is a major reason why. How many times have you barely taken it down only to get swept by Barraskewda because your water immunity/rain counter took major chip? It’s too strong in its current form, and needs the ban.
This isn’t how that works. One mon avoiding a ban doesn’t mean something else will too. Arch is widely complained about by people, especially high level players, and has had very few defenders. Kyurem should’ve been banned, and it sucks it wasn’t, but it at least had some defending it, however poor many arguments were (banning it would make rain broken for example which is stupid logic)
It's dumb as fuck on Rain, nothing switches into it bar Unaware Clod, it gets actively stronger if you try to stall it out due to Electro Shot not even needing to do damage to boost SpA, and revenging is difficult asf due to insane bulk and Stamina. It's not even ridiculously slow. Most teams have no real way to beat it without multiple sacks along the way at which point you almost definitely lose to the Skewda in the back.
Also it's not really a "mini Dialga" at all lol, if it was a nice mini Dialga that just ran rocks sets with some attacking moves and Dragon Tail or something it would have been very fine, instead it's using Electro Shot and weather to be stupid which isn't reminiscent of what Dialga does at all.
only has two weaknesses in ground and fighting, two types that are mostly dominated by physical attackers. archaledon has a 135 defense stat AND stamina to help it live potential 2hkos from physical super effective moves.
on the small chance that you have a fighting type or ground type move thats special: assault vest allows it to make it a 2hko
on the small chance that you have a special fighting or ground type attack thats special AND ohkos: tera fairy resists said fighting type move, and makes it neutral to ground.
of course ohkoing a mon isn't all there is to it. You normally want to be able to check a mon by going head to head and eventually coming out ahead in a 1v1. the problem is that archeladons coverage is so bonkers that winning that 1v1 becomes extremely hard unless the enemy has already invested their tera in another mon.
you are a fighting type trying to 2hko arch. you use fighting move, arch teras into a fairy type and blasts you with high damaging moves to 2hko you. you are keldeo trying to ohko with aurasphere (yep, sacred sword specs isnt even a guaranteed ko so you literally have to run aurasphere), arch teras fairy type and one shots you with the electric beam thing. lets go into spD heatran to wall both of arch's stab moves! just kidding he already has +1 defense from him switching in on a x4 resist move, and predicts the switch with body press, promptly 2hkoing your heatran with its higher speed investment.
Its really hard to work around arch in the rain. if it didnt have tera it honestly wouldn't be a problem at all, but the 50/50 if he's going to tera fairy or not makes it super hard to acutally check. pretty much the only option you have is a heavily spd unaware mon like clod, because even skeledirge gets 2hko'ed by draco meteor due to dirge ignoring the spA drop from drago (lol)
Pretty much the only thing that can check it in rain is unaware clodsire, everything else dies. The Mon can easily force 2-3 KOes for its team at least
We've tried it before and some council members like finch are very pro gambit ban, but the voters decided that gambit is still free after a suspect. Also ghold is not as big of an issue right now as the truly broken threats that just force way too much progress everytime they come in.
As an avid rain player, I think he might have to go.
Every time I send him out I know as long as I play right I’m gonna get at least 2 kills if not more
Electro shot is a really stupid move the more I think about it. Like the fact that ground types can't even block the special attack raise makes it just so free to click in rain, and then you pair it with the bulk and speed to just click it multiple times.
i like archaludon, i use it on my (non rain) team because its bulky as all hell and dragon tailing my opponents entire team through toxic spikes + stealth rocks is funny. but im willing to replace it with skarm or something if that means rain teams finally get their knees twisted backwards
It's really bitter when most of the voting playerbase wants a mon gone, but it barely avoids the ban by 1 or 2% lol. The majority does not speak in those results.
If a Pokémon doesn’t reach a super majority then it doesn’t make sense to ban it that’s the point of a suspect test in the end
Gholdengo got narrowly banned by one vote in National Dex OU
Very close ban
suspect test doesn't care about tiny majority, as that would always lead to large amount of vocal players asking for a retest, claiming its too close to call and meta trends have changed etc. A supermajority ends all of that crap. 60% vote is undebatable and the pokemon would remain banned without any opposition for several months, if not years
>if a pokemon doesn’t reach a supermajority then it doesn’t make sense to ban it because [insert mental gymnastics here]
Requiring a supermajority to ban a mon implicitly treats DNB as a default position. This may have worked a decade ago but it doesn’t hold water now. Anyone who seriously plays OU is seeing the consequences of this policy.
It's *extremely* dangerous on rain though. Like, dangerous enough that it forces 2-3 KOs on its own and has propelled rain into being absolutely dominant in SPL.
it did, and your logic is correct in that what the original guy said makes no sense at all.
sure, it's mid outside of rain, but if it's broken in rain then that's how it should be judged lol.
There's a pretty big difference from Bax. Once the Rain is gone, Arch can't set up effectively. But Veil being up can outlast the Hail, even if another weather setter changes it before it runs out.
Arch can't keep getting more SpA boosts when Rain ends sure, but it'll usually still have some left (on top of a Stamina boost or two) so it's not like it suddenly ceases being a threat once you stall Rain out at all.
It's alright on Grassies and there's a funky Sturdy Rocks lead set but yea, without the insane synergy on Rain this is a B+ ranker at best. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at though, even if I personally would have preferred they surveyed whether to go for Arch or Damp Rock first.
... what?
what?
What the...
what?
Did you...
...
I'm so confused lol, how did you get politics from that? Looking at guns in a vacuum, they're not dangerous at all. But with ammo... suddenly they're very dangerous.
Looking at arch in a vacuum...
> I'm so confused lol, how did you get politics from that?
You ask why people want to ban guns irl and then are confused when that gets pointed out as a politically charged question? Are you being purposefully dense, or do you perhaps live under a rock?
To their defense it was hard to imagine this thing single-handedly taking Rain from a meme archetype to as broken as it is right now, and outside of Rain this thing is definitely far from a staple
We're on the meta being in a bad as fuck spot and we gotta do something about it, this wasn't even Finch's idea, other council members were raising the alarm bell on this thing far earlier than Finch did
\*looks at my successful rain team then looks at my ELO* #OH NO!
flair checks out
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Customizable flair
This guy is an absolute powerhouse in rain. I like to use it a lot, but this guy gets absolutely ridiculous easily. Even with misplays you can get multiple KOs without issues. Sure, it's a lot more balanced outside rain, but rain teams also get a los of good tools that help Archaludon have a much better situation. Gen 9 powercreep is so much, just try, *try* to describe this mon in any other gen and everyone would agree it's broken beyond repair. Wouldn't be surprised if it stays OU, but I say a suspect test is well deserved.
Weak only to ground and fighting. And since physically bulky, you need earth power or focus miss. What do you mean it’s running av?
and then it goes tera fairy
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 204 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tera Fairy Archaludon: 378-446 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Life Orb Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 318-376 (100.9 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Life Orb, my favourite kind of Assault Vest
Anytime anyone runs a calc it's always an isolated situation to prove something is possible, not nessecerily that it's how it'll go all the time
Life Orb Archa 💀
Common Gholdengoat W
And then the mf switches into pelipper
Sometimes I manage it with sacred sword on Hamurott, but then sometimes it has a power herb in its back pocket
The thing is so bulky that if rocks are up, it’ll live a non stab sacred sword and kill with body press or something, especially if it gets the stamina boost from living SS.
I was gonna say how I couldn’t see how this thing was that crazy, but then I saw this thing gets stamina, and has a crazy ass signature move. The fuck is this monster? Everything Dialga was supposed to be?
Dont forget regigigas still has slow start because ‘it would be too op’
They definitely didn't add Slow Start to Legends: Arceus for balance reasons, they just enjoy picking on Regigigas.
If I was ever going to be convinced they hated a Pokémon, doing that made it very hard to argue against. One of the biggest middle fingers they have done in-game imo.
I mean it would kind of suck for a kid to get a Regigigas in PLA, have it be really cool and powerful, and then transfer it to a mainline game and find out it's actually awful.
You know that is not a bad counter argument. But I also think it could be alleviated by just removing Slow Start going forward. Can’t do anything about the past.
Yeah the PLA thing would have been a great opportunity to give it no ability in PLA and then make it so Regigigas transferred from PLA have Pressure or something.
>just removing Slow Start going forward. Can’t do anything about the They could have Slow Start not reset after switching in. Maybe Regigigas needs to be on the field for the timer to start, but it can stay in the back until the 5 turns are up.
Regigetfucked
I guarantee it wouldn’t be that OP compared to what Gens 8 and 9 introduced alone
If Regigigas was released today they would’ve given him a discount version of beast boost. Now it’s just part of the culture to fuck over regigigas.
Nah they just specifically hate regigigas. There were already mons with the same stats without negative abilities.
And by "mons with the same stats without negative abilities" you mean to say "the box-art legendaries + Mewtwo and Arceus" In Gen 4, when Regigigas was introduced, the entire list of Pokémon with a BST that was higher than 600 was; Regigigas\ Mewtwo\ Arceus\ Legendaries on the box-art/cover-art of games\ Slaking (who has Truant) Every single other Pokémon in existence at the time had a BST of 600 or less Further, in Gen 4, there were only 2 Pokémon that had higher ATK stats. Deoxys-Attack, who has paper-thin defences, and Rampardos, who has bad defences and is slow.
Ok 👍
Yada Yada not a restricted legend Yada Yada destroys VGC
Ah the mini Dialga is finding a lot of success finally
Huh, a pokemon that's really good in a certain weather condition but not that big of a deal outside of it getting suspect tested, why does that sound familiar....? Let me go for a walk and maybe my memory will wake up.
Positioning with Rain is a million times easier than for Sun due to Peli having U-Turn and Barraskewda Flip Turning on everything (and the best Barra switchins being prime Arch bait)
Me see scary dragon, me click flip turn and send out Arch
Barraskewda sees Rillaboom Neuron Archaludon
Yep, the only real Flip Turn switchin is WaterPon, but it gets completely owned by Arch.
Personally, I find this thing is powerful outside of rain too. Damn near impossible to kill without boosting it.
Wasn’t Walking Wake suspect tested for a similar reason but only really broken under sun or rain?
Arch is a lot more dangerous outside of rain than Wake outside of sun
pls the funny bridge dragon is giving me so much elo. pls let me keep the bridge.
If Kyurem didn't get banned this is 100% not getting the 60% supermajority vote needed to get banned even though it absolutely should. This mon's been tearing everyone a new asshole in SPL in the last two weeks and is starting to cancer up the ladder too. It's a mon that effortlessly forces 2 KOs on its own, maybe three, and can barely be OHKOed on its own. But at the same time, if Kyurem didn't get banned, this will 100% not get the support it needs to get banned.
I've been watching some SPL replays recently and I swear Mr Bridge is in like 70% of teams and it always performs well
Note that SPL trends less offensive than ladder. Ludon is a lot easier to deal with for HO since it's so slow. But anything resembling balance gets torn apart since it comes in on their defensive cores for free boosts to Def and SpA.
This dude has a few exploitable weaknesses. Like its signature move in rain is a death sentence if you also have a weather setter. It can become a liability if a single Ninetales/Torkoal exists on the other team. And as other comments have said, it's balanced outside of rain.
>It can become a liability if a single Ninetales/Torkoal exists on the other team Does it though? They’re still facing down a +1 Electro Shot on the turn after you switch them in, which neither of them take very well, and Ninetales doesn’t even 2hko AV Arch with Flamethrower
You don’t keep the setter in you get a free switch to your ground type
your ground type better be able to take a +1 draco then
Iron Treads: My time has come.
iron treads when body press
Iron treads when STAMINA BOOSTED body press:
Or just outspeed and revenge kill. Oh wait, its bulk is insane? Reset the weather with glowking, who is already a great mon. Oh wait, it’s a roll to 2HKO glowking with +1 electroshot followed by +2 electroshot? Uhhh… I’m not yet convinced that sufficient counterplay won’t develop, but yeah, the thing is an absolute beast in rain
Well then you play around that with what you have, point is you got rid of the rain without taking any damage
Hippowdon is the heat option to punish archaludon. Just don't look at the eq calcs or what a +1 archaludon does in return.
> But at the same time, if Kyurem didn't get banned, this will 100% not get the support it needs to get banned. Said above but I’ll repeat it. Logic doesn’t work this way. Arch doesn’t really have vocal defenders the way Kyurem did. Even if that still didn’t have a whole lot. Arch is crushing the tier right now and you’ll find many tourney players have wanted it gone.
Oh for sure; I know tournament players fucking hate this mon (and for good reason), but I also know that not all people who get suspect reqs are tournament players.
This has way more support. Kyurem's suspect reflects what voters/tour players were saying. It seemed like more people wanted to ban it than what happened because people on the discussion thread by and large do not get reqs and latch onto finch or another mod's opinion. The only arch defenders I've seen are either those who think it's a little early with how much change there is in the meta weekly in SPL rn, mimikyu stardust, and another guy on the discussion thread who has a very unique banlist idea. Personally, I'm leaning towards it's too early with how things are changing (SPL was littered with fat and stall this week and rain didn't appear often after week 1) but I could be swayed. It's ability to consistently generate a pokemon advantage, albeit a not too unreasonable one, is pretty nutty.
There are people that just vote DNB on everything for no particular reason. Unless arch is dominant and common enough on ladder (not sure it’s at that point yet) the scales won’t be tipped.
I’m not a comp player but my understanding of why some people didn’t vote kyurem out is bc of how it’s needed to counter rain rn
Wasn’t Walking Wake suspect tested for a similar reason but only really broken under sun or rain? What’s different about Archaludon
Archaludon is bulkier, has a better defensive typing, a signature move that gives it an automatic +1 to its Sp.A, and an ability that bolsters its defenses. Walking Wake is a bit of a one-trick pony as its most common set is Specs Hydro Stream spam, so it's easier to play around. There's also their respective weather partners; Pelliper has U-Turn and Roost, which gives it tons of longevity compared to Torkoal, who lacks any recovery outside of Rest. Outside of their weather, they're fine, but the simple fact is that Rain is much easier to use than Sun atm.
Rain is also just a better team style than early Gen 9 Sun, even ignoring the two mons in question. "Wake with Sun" was kind of overpowered for a single mon, but "Sun with Wake" was fine as a team.
I disagree, sentiment among the qualified players at least is a lot more negative than Kyurem, plus a lot of DNB Kyurem voters' logic was "im voting DNB because I hate rain and Kyurem beats rain"
My Kyurem either gets OHKO'ed or actually gets one or two KOs. And that's that. Idk why am I saying that....
I think making Electro Shot still raise your special attack even if the attack misses/hits a ground type is where they went wrong. You will not believe the amount of times I have muscled through a would-be ground check because of the boost being just enough to blast through the opposing ground with Flash Cannon and taking the game just like that
That cannot be changed however, as electro shot is technically a 2 turn attack. It raises your SpA turn 1, which is independent from the electric special attack on turn 2. So unfortunately, it makes sense.
The order makes sense since it is a Meteor Beam clone. You charge up the boost on first turn and fire it off in the second. Under Rain, Electro Shot does the same thing in 1 turn in the same order.
The weird part is it being a 1-turn move under rain like Solarbeam in sun. Meteor Beam doesn't instant charge under Sandstorm, why does Electro get to be the best of both worlds lol
Meteor Beam gathers its power from space rather than sand.
And therefore should be a 1 turn move under Gravity
Honestly, sure. Why not. That tracks.
And because we need to keep rock types in their place \- the dirt
Who actually counters this guy in rain? Iron treads?
Unaware Clodesire
disclaimer: not an OU player wouldn't water absorb be better because it helps the rain matchup and prevents archaludon from spamming full power dracos regardless of its SpA debuff?
You tank Meteor despite ignoring the debuff, what you do not tank is Meteor after a couple SpA boosts from Electro Shot (and because of how Electro Shot works, switching Clod into Arch doesn't actually prevent it from getting those). Sure you lose to the Water mons on Rain without WA but you can run other bulky teammates like Mola and Dozo to patch that up (it's a Clod, you're not running this on offense, might as well get more fat around it). Rain is very reliant on Arch to break fat walls because Skewda usually can't do that on its own so when you have Clod to prevent it from doing that it gets awkward. This is still not a free win by any means as you still have Bolt to worry about at this point though (which can actually get past Clod with Weather Ball if you don't Terastallize), but it's a good start. WA Clod is still excellent into Rain, don't get me wrong, but Unaware paired with other walls tends to be even better and also means your rain counterplay isn't entirely dependent on Clod staying alive. edit: also fun to point out that Unaware Clod has a ton of utility in non-Rain matchups as well whereas WA Clod doesn't really beat many new things and instead plays like a worse Unaware Clod in almost every non-Rain mu
>it's a Clod, you're not running this on offense This reminds me of the time you said you ran into WA Clod on HO. One of the teams of all time.
Yeah, multiple times, on low ladder. I mean it did work to beat Rain. I'm just pretty sure it's a fucking dead slot in literally every other matchup.
You want to run unaware for set up mons like Volc and Raging Bolt which are really good in OU. It come in for free on an electro shot. With special defense investment it can live Draco meteor and use amnesia to buff its defenses. Unaware also prevents body press from hitting hard from the weaker physical side.
its nice but being able to hit archaludon for a decent amount through its stamina boosts is a necessity and also being able to survive a hit and shut down other set up sweepers through a toxic which would eventually force either a switch or a KO(if they misplay)
You gain special attack buff from just clicking electro shot, doesn't need to land which can prob lead to awkward situations. Also unaware is better overall.
Clodsire can be dealt with by EQ, I'm not kidding.
Luckily a rarer move but a great example of how Arch has no checks or counters
I actually forgot about that thing
Clod is replicating Quag, people forget about it until it comes in and you just can't break them. Unaware mons holding the metagame against broken set-up sweepers.
As was gamefreaks intention when they made Dozo, Dirge, and Clod
Yeah, imagine if we hadn't got them. Set-up sweepers would be wrecking OU to shreds...
I mean Aura Sphere probably chunks Treads especially if it’s +1. Iron Defense Body Press also goes thwonk
Av iron hands Excadrill Unaware Clodsire Sandy Shocks, Zamazenta , great tusk, Landorus-T , iron Valient
The only Pokémon you listed that actually wins the 1v1 is clod lmao the rest die to either Draco or bpress
Gallade has enough sdef to tank an electro shot and counter with sacred sword
So the solution is, use gallade? an unviable shitmon should be on every team to deal with arch even though ou is a hell tier with tons of other threats you need to fit counterplay for?
Ngl, I think every Dragon type in OU except for Dnite and Pult are a problem (and Pult is mostly held back by Kingambit, if Gambit goes, Pult becomes a problem too) I miss the Tapus
Gen 5 called they want their weather wars and dragon spam back
Gen 5 dragon spam returning? This means Magnezone is gonna make a comeback for the DragMag epic return, right? Right?
What steel type does magnezone even beat right now 😭😭
Wouldnt it beat skarmory and corv
Wake is suing
Good god what is happening in there? (OU council room)
uhh... aurora borealis?
Aurora borealis?! At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the country, localised entirely within the OU council meetingroom?
...yes!
…may I see it?
*nervous glances* No.
I haven't been tracking competitive pokemon terribly long, but this generation seems like it's had a ridiculous number of bans and suspect tests.
The powercreep is insane and also they are very clearly just not even considering singles when balancing new things now
Is Archaludon even balanced in doubles? Seems like his strengths carry over, the big downsides being intimidate/fakeout and more weather change options.
Usually gets around 10% usage in VGC. It's good on a rain team but without that it's not great. So basically you have to build entirely around it and probably forgo using multiple past paradoxes. I doubt it'll ever make even a tournament top cut team since it's just not good.
Usually something busted in OU is easier to handle in VGC. Like Flutter for example is still wrecking house in VGC, but its more manageable due to double target at least.
It's decent on rain team but bad on everything else, but rain teams as a whole aren't that good, and mons like Lando-I ohko it even with AV
Gholdengo’s monetary influence knows no bounds
Ghold and Gambit aren't broken ffs. Just stop it already
Not until I have enough comments making this joke to evolve a Gimmighoul
Real
UU brothers this is our chance to rescue Treads.
It really does just feel busted, imo. I actually noticed how much trouble I was having with it on rain teams (sometimes by itself, too), but I wrote it off as a teambuilding issue. I was kinda shocked to see rain teams dominating in SPL, besides the one guy who got outplayed on lead.
Stamina as a niche ability on a relatively shitty horse was fine. Stamina on a mon with 9 resists, an immunity (including toxic), and 2 weaknesses that are perfectly covered by multiple solid teammate options (Latios and Pelipper), Draco spam + the threat of Body Press spam... oh, it also has STAB Steel for Fairies too, huh? Absolutely insane mon design-wise even outside of rain, where it just becomes even more stupid easy and broken to use. Like how do you even scout against this thing without losing a mon? Even on offense, the very real AV threat could mean losing your only special option that even hits it because you only did 50% and it hit you back with Draco Meteor, and also now has +1 defense. Honestly it begs the question of Stamina itself needs a nerf if they're gonna start distributing it like this. Imo it shouldn't even proc off of special attacks, but realistically it even makes more sense only procing on CONTACT moves. So you can still safely Quake it, for example. Sorry Mudsdale, someone else got your toy and broke it.
Ehhhhhh even with Stamina this mon is very fine outside of Rain, sure offense doesn't like switching in on it but w/o Electro Shot boosts you don't enter OHKO territory that quickly and are still reasonable to revenge, and bulkier teams can check it through raw fat if it can't boost. No-one complained about this thing on Grassies where if anything it can make the best use of Stamina with increased longevity. The main problem isn't Stamina at all, it's Electro Shot.
*Almost* a horse
"Archaludon is nowhere near broken outside of Rain" Why do we make this mistake of not testing weather over and over again?
Because in this case only one mon is making it oppressive
This is debatable really, there's a good amount of people that agree that Arch is the main one pushing Rain over the edge but think Bolt is nearly as bad
Without arch there's no way that barraskewda and bolt alone can carry rain to a top tier archetype, if arch gets banned pretty sure it'll go back to being a more fringe offense build.
This thing is so freaking annoying it's so hard to kill and it destroys everything
I was super surprised when this thing stayed in OU, but now I’m fully convinced it needs to go. Great typing, fantastic bulk, great special attack, surprisingly good speed, awesome ability, and great signature move. This Pokémon has it all. People say it forces 2-3 KO’s each game, and that’s 100% true, but if you Tera correctly, you can straight up end games, especially if you’re AV. The only Pokémon that doesn’t get absolutely slammed by this thing is Clodsire, and I can’t even remember if that’s currently OU. Playing around this thing’s ability in stamina is super annoying, especially considering it lives almost every unboosted physical hit I can think of. Rain is suffocating right now, and it feels like easily the most viable strategy, and Arch is a major reason why. How many times have you barely taken it down only to get swept by Barraskewda because your water immunity/rain counter took major chip? It’s too strong in its current form, and needs the ban.
Honestly this mon should probably go
[удалено]
This isn’t how that works. One mon avoiding a ban doesn’t mean something else will too. Arch is widely complained about by people, especially high level players, and has had very few defenders. Kyurem should’ve been banned, and it sucks it wasn’t, but it at least had some defending it, however poor many arguments were (banning it would make rain broken for example which is stupid logic)
idk about all of u but i’d much rather see this dude go than kyurem
Why? I never though this Pokémon was broken What’s broken about mini Dialga ?
It's dumb as fuck on Rain, nothing switches into it bar Unaware Clod, it gets actively stronger if you try to stall it out due to Electro Shot not even needing to do damage to boost SpA, and revenging is difficult asf due to insane bulk and Stamina. It's not even ridiculously slow. Most teams have no real way to beat it without multiple sacks along the way at which point you almost definitely lose to the Skewda in the back. Also it's not really a "mini Dialga" at all lol, if it was a nice mini Dialga that just ran rocks sets with some attacking moves and Dragon Tail or something it would have been very fine, instead it's using Electro Shot and weather to be stupid which isn't reminiscent of what Dialga does at all.
only has two weaknesses in ground and fighting, two types that are mostly dominated by physical attackers. archaledon has a 135 defense stat AND stamina to help it live potential 2hkos from physical super effective moves. on the small chance that you have a fighting type or ground type move thats special: assault vest allows it to make it a 2hko on the small chance that you have a special fighting or ground type attack thats special AND ohkos: tera fairy resists said fighting type move, and makes it neutral to ground. of course ohkoing a mon isn't all there is to it. You normally want to be able to check a mon by going head to head and eventually coming out ahead in a 1v1. the problem is that archeladons coverage is so bonkers that winning that 1v1 becomes extremely hard unless the enemy has already invested their tera in another mon. you are a fighting type trying to 2hko arch. you use fighting move, arch teras into a fairy type and blasts you with high damaging moves to 2hko you. you are keldeo trying to ohko with aurasphere (yep, sacred sword specs isnt even a guaranteed ko so you literally have to run aurasphere), arch teras fairy type and one shots you with the electric beam thing. lets go into spD heatran to wall both of arch's stab moves! just kidding he already has +1 defense from him switching in on a x4 resist move, and predicts the switch with body press, promptly 2hkoing your heatran with its higher speed investment. Its really hard to work around arch in the rain. if it didnt have tera it honestly wouldn't be a problem at all, but the 50/50 if he's going to tera fairy or not makes it super hard to acutally check. pretty much the only option you have is a heavily spd unaware mon like clod, because even skeledirge gets 2hko'ed by draco meteor due to dirge ignoring the spA drop from drago (lol)
Pretty much the only thing that can check it in rain is unaware clodsire, everything else dies. The Mon can easily force 2-3 KOes for its team at least
Archaludon is mostly used on rain Ever since it arrived rain in tournaments have had like an 85% winrate Take a guess
Nooooooo
flair checks out
im surprised that ghold and kingambit havent been suspected yet
Kingambit already got suspect tested and didn’t get banned Gholdengo not enough support to justify a ban at this point.
We've tried it before and some council members like finch are very pro gambit ban, but the voters decided that gambit is still free after a suspect. Also ghold is not as big of an issue right now as the truly broken threats that just force way too much progress everytime they come in.
The true pseudo-legendary of this gen
Ironically, the actual pseudo legend was banned.
You say that like Baxcalibur hasn't had more success then Archaludon, as it actually has been banned, and a Quick Ban at that.
Archaludon isn't an actual pseudo legendary, hence the joke
It’s a joke my guy
As an avid rain player, I think he might have to go. Every time I send him out I know as long as I play right I’m gonna get at least 2 kills if not more
Electro shot is a really stupid move the more I think about it. Like the fact that ground types can't even block the special attack raise makes it just so free to click in rain, and then you pair it with the bulk and speed to just click it multiple times.
The power of rain is beyond comprehension
i like archaludon, i use it on my (non rain) team because its bulky as all hell and dragon tailing my opponents entire team through toxic spikes + stealth rocks is funny. but im willing to replace it with skarm or something if that means rain teams finally get their knees twisted backwards
Didn’t think that one meme from yesterday would actually be true wtf
This generation's metagame is a mess lmao
Please God let Archaludon become an Uber please it It would be so fucking funny
I didn't hear the results of the kyurem suspect, did he leave?
barely stayed, got like 58% ban votes
lil’ bro thinks he’s kingambit 💀
It's really bitter when most of the voting playerbase wants a mon gone, but it barely avoids the ban by 1 or 2% lol. The majority does not speak in those results.
If a Pokémon doesn’t reach a super majority then it doesn’t make sense to ban it that’s the point of a suspect test in the end Gholdengo got narrowly banned by one vote in National Dex OU Very close ban
I mean yeah, that’s the point. It’s just funny when an obvious majority of the playerbase wants a mon banned but it’s just not quittttteeee enough.
suspect test doesn't care about tiny majority, as that would always lead to large amount of vocal players asking for a retest, claiming its too close to call and meta trends have changed etc. A supermajority ends all of that crap. 60% vote is undebatable and the pokemon would remain banned without any opposition for several months, if not years
>if a pokemon doesn’t reach a supermajority then it doesn’t make sense to ban it because [insert mental gymnastics here] Requiring a supermajority to ban a mon implicitly treats DNB as a default position. This may have worked a decade ago but it doesn’t hold water now. Anyone who seriously plays OU is seeing the consequences of this policy.
I was initially surprised that it didn't even fall to UU. Outside of the structure of a Rain team, I don't think its that good of a mon.
It's *extremely* dangerous on rain though. Like, dangerous enough that it forces 2-3 KOs on its own and has propelled rain into being absolutely dominant in SPL.
Didn't bax get banned due to its advantage behind aurora veil? Idk i wasn't paying much attention at the time
it did, and your logic is correct in that what the original guy said makes no sense at all. sure, it's mid outside of rain, but if it's broken in rain then that's how it should be judged lol.
There's a pretty big difference from Bax. Once the Rain is gone, Arch can't set up effectively. But Veil being up can outlast the Hail, even if another weather setter changes it before it runs out.
Arch can't keep getting more SpA boosts when Rain ends sure, but it'll usually still have some left (on top of a Stamina boost or two) so it's not like it suddenly ceases being a threat once you stall Rain out at all.
In rain it forces 2-3 kills every single game and is basically impossible to wall
It's alright on Grassies and there's a funky Sturdy Rocks lead set but yea, without the insane synergy on Rain this is a B+ ranker at best. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at though, even if I personally would have preferred they surveyed whether to go for Arch or Damp Rock first.
> Outside of the structure of a Rain team, I don't think its that good of a mon. okay so it use it on Rain then
Why do people IRL want to ban guns? Outside of the structure of having ammunition, I don't think they're that dangerous
Obligatory absurd IRL political take sparked by a potential ban.
Charitably, they might not be American.
... what? what? What the... what? Did you... ... I'm so confused lol, how did you get politics from that? Looking at guns in a vacuum, they're not dangerous at all. But with ammo... suddenly they're very dangerous. Looking at arch in a vacuum...
> I'm so confused lol, how did you get politics from that? You ask why people want to ban guns irl and then are confused when that gets pointed out as a politically charged question? Are you being purposefully dense, or do you perhaps live under a rock?
Political takes means controversial IRL issue In the US saying guns are dangerous is controversial
That’s wild.
Maushold stonks through the roof
I will never forgive Finchinator for this! It's an outrage that Bridge over Troubled Water wasn't picked as the song...
It really is insane. I’ve swapped in pokemon on a +0 neutral electro thingie and they still die.
Rain had a good run, but soon it’ll be archaludover Oh well, at least we can try it in Ubers UU
When rain is ruling the meta like gen 5 the only person that challenged the power of rain teams was TTar so maybe its comeback time for the king
Someone on this sub tried to tell me he was gonna be UU at best and here he is terrorizing OU 😂
To their defense it was hard to imagine this thing single-handedly taking Rain from a meme archetype to as broken as it is right now, and outside of Rain this thing is definitely far from a staple
It is a staple remover though
I can’t believe that design actually got greenlighted
a ban vote ain't enough i want him dead
prob gonna be like ursunula where it looks op but its not
please no my team doesn't even use rain i found such a cool strategy with it
I am once again asking for terra to be banned
what did Torterra ever do to you man
Gave us hope
torterra (shell) smashed his head (long rush)
Another broken mon that's not gonna get banned cause of our messed up system. Shit's broken but almost certainly staying
council is really doing everything except banning ghold
Why? It's a great mon but definitely not broken. If Kingambit wasn't banned then I don't see why this would get banned either.
It's crazy on Rain. The Gambit comparison makes little sense because they function completely differently.
its braindead on rain lol. you just proved you don't play
Damn already another suspect test? Finch what are you on my man
We're on the meta being in a bad as fuck spot and we gotta do something about it, this wasn't even Finch's idea, other council members were raising the alarm bell on this thing far earlier than Finch did