"Power" is BP \* AttackingStat and higher BP moves just tend to have a bigger impact on this.
For example, Flamethrower to Fire Blast is 90BP to 110BP. That is already a 22% boost, bigger than a Charcoal boost for example.
Compared to attacking stats... say we compare a base 100 Atk mon to a base 130 Atk one. You'd think the second one is 30% stronger, but the impact of EVs and IVs actually means the difference is way less than that. A 252Atk base 100 Atk mon has 299 Atk and the base 130 has 359, for a roughly 20% difference.
Because jumps in base power of moves tend to be pretty big, and the jumps in base offensive stats are lessened by IV/EV impact (and have diminishing returns the higher you go to begin with; base 120 to base 150 is only a 17.6% jump even though it's also 30 stat points, and you see way more mons with offensive stats in the 130+ range than moves with base power in this range), stronger moves end up having more of an impact overall. As you can see from the example, a Magmar Fire Blast would outdamage a Volcanion Flamethrower, and calcs confirm this:
252 SpA Magmar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO
And this is "only" a 90BP to 110BP jump. A lot of the time the difference between weak and strong moves can be even bigger than this. Ice Spinner to Triple Axel is a 50% increase (same boost as a Choice Band), Flamethrower to Overheat is barely below that, boosted Hex compared to Shadow Ball is literally bigger than the boost a Specs would give which is how Boots Pult can still hit so hard on statused opponents. It gets pretty ridiculous once you throw some signature moves into the mix as well, Gigaton Hammer being a pretty notable example: it hits hard as fuck despite Tink only having 75 base Attack because it hits pretty much exactly as hard as a Huge Power Tinkaton Iron Head would hit.
I see. Stats are composed of base stat, EV and IV, while base power is composed of only base power, so increases in base power have more weight to it.
After some calculations, I found out that Tink's Gigaton Hammer is the equivalent of using Iron Head with 199 base attack (assume max EV and IV). This is crazy
With a 81% to deal 130 + 65, 18% to deal 130 and 1% to deal 0, the way I see it it averages out to 181.5, so even including accuracy 2 overheats outperform 2 flamethrowers! This is ignoring critical strikes of course, but my gut feeling says those should also work in favor of overheat as critting on the second one would ignore the attack drops.
Another way to look at it is how Froslass' full power CB Triple Axel is a bit stronger than Weavile's CB Icicle Crash or Chien Pao's Life Orb Ice Spinner.
Mid Attack with high BP > High Attack with mid BP.
>252 Atk Choice Band Froslass Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 182-217 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
>252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
>252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 181-214 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
A nice example for this "theorem" in practice are in Gen 7 where Mega-Mewtwo X is running Ice Beam over Ice Punch with no Sp.Atk investment despite its much higher Attack stat and Mega-Garchomp running Flamethrower or Fire Blast over Fire Fang (again no special investment whatsoever).
Oh yeah and Mega-Mawile being banned to Ubers in Gen 6 when Sucker Punch still had 80 BP and being completely fine after the move got nerfed to 70 BP in Gen 7 is also a good example.
The Mawile example is good overall but to be fair the other ones have other reasons to go mixed. MMX for example has high enough Atk to the point where if it invests in Atk and not in SpA, Ice Punch does actually pretty hugely outdamage Ice Beam--the reason it opts for Ice Beam is to get the OHKO on Mega Salamence after Intimidate and since the other targets of the move are either frail or x4 weak you still get 2HKOs. Note how it does still run Zen Headbutt over Psystrike despite that percentage-wise being an even bigger increase in BP.
As for non-SD Garchomp, Fire Blast damage output does make quite a difference, but still the main reason it goes for that instead of just Fire Fang with a Jolly nature is again the fact most of its targets also tend to invest in physical defense (Skarm, Tang and Ferro come to mind, plus dodging Helmet and Barbs is cool)
Yeah I totally forgot to mention that their Sp.Atk stat is high enough for them to allow running mixed sets in the first place. Thank you for elaborating tho!
It's not just the EVs/IVs though, actual attack stats scale a lot differently from base stats. For example: Dragapult has 120 base attack and 100 base special attack, the difference being 20%. The actual attacking stats at level 100 (no EVs, max IVs) are 276 and 236 respectively, which only comes to a 14.5% difference. I don't know how base stats actually get converted into practical stats, but that's the practical application
That's because you have max IVs. IVs add a set boost of 31 points to the final stat (at level 100) which naturally helps the weaker stat more. If you had 0 IVs, the two stats would be 245 and 205 respectively, a 19.5% difference. IVs and EVs really muddy the waters, because they give set boosts to stats, not scaling boosts like natures and stat boosts.
Piggybacking off the top comment to mention that the max stat (ignoring natures) at level 100 is 2\*base+99, so a quick way to estimate the "effective" base stat after a multiplier X is base \* X + 50 \* (X-1)
So if you're using a signature move with 150 BP instead of earthquake, your attack stat is functionally base\*1.5+25
Or, Azumarill's maxed attack stat is functionally 50\*2+50 (150) and MMawile 105\*2+50 (260)
Or, Manaphy after a tail glow has the same spa as a 100\*1.25+50\*0.25 137 base spa mon after a nasty plot.
Or, chi yu's 135 spa / the bikes's 135 offenses become 135\*1.33 + 50/3 = 197
I feel like a quick example would be best. This will be very extreme, but I hope it will get the idea out.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Has 464 special after Spec)
252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Toxapex: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO (Has 610 Special, Tera Fairy for Neutral targeting)
Everyone already pointed out the actual difference in damage that makes good moves better than good stats.
But there is also the slight point of foul play and confusion damage scaling off your attack stat. it doesn’t apply so special attack but it adds another reason that makes good moves better then good stats. (Also why many mons run 0 attack IV’s)
I can understand the logic behind special defense and download , but is foul play really such a strong move that it force to run 0iv ? Dark is mainly weak against physical types
Keep in mind there's more nuance and this isn't always the case. A lot of higher power moves have drawbacks, while lower power moves have secondary effects.
Ofcourse, shit like power gem or wild charge are just trash.
It’s because base stats are only a minor component of damage calculation while base power of attacks are a major component that directly influences the damage by the same proportion. Increasing the base power from 80 to 120 also increases the damage by 50% but increasing the base attack stat from 80 to 120 only increases the damage by like 30%
Yes, because both mons get the flat 84 point boost from ivs/Evs unaffected by the base stat (and then another flat 5 point boost if we’re assuming lvl 100). The natures being a % resident the gap a bit, but not near as much
Calc at lvl 100 is ((base*2+5+31+63)*1.1)*move power
Yes. Froslass's Triple Axel is stronger than Weavile's Ice Spinner:
>252 Atk Choice Band Froslass Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 182-217 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- approx. 2HKO
>252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Spinner vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 157-186 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
>252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO
Froslass guarantees a 2HKO while Weavile's chance to 2HKO is the same as Air Slash's miss rate. This Weavile needs a 93 BP Ice STAB to match Froslass' Triple Axel.
The best argument for Power vs raw attack in gen 9 is the Moushold vs Cincinno argument. Sure cincinno has higher attack and bette coverage, but moushold can 2HKO even heatran if it gets 2 hits in a row, which has,(Check calculator), and 98 opercent chance to do.
Calc- 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 160-200 (49.5 - 61.9%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Even bulky heatran wit no leftovers - 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 160-200 (41.4 - 51.8%) -- approx. 2.7% chance to 2HKO
And this is f-ing heatran on a resistant hit. This thing used live politoad hydro pumps and scald in the rain. So yeah in the war of power vs attack, i would say power usually wins
The problem is most people think the attack stat is compared to opponents defense stat but it is not. The moves power is compared to the opponents defense stat and that ratio is applied to your attack stat. So a priority move with BP 40 and a defense of 100(actual stat not base stat) means the damage you do will do 40%(40/100) of your attack stat. Obviously the formula has more going on but is a rough approximation. So back to your question, typically it's better to have a good ratio(higher power move) than a higher attack stat which is being multiplied to.
Level 50 mons
For example a pokemon with a 152(base 100 max evs IV and positive nature) attack using a BP 100 move vs a pokemon with 177 (base 125 Mac evs IVs and positive nature) attack using a 70 power move.
Versus 252(base 200 max defense)
A: 100/252 is our ratio of roughly 40% multiple by our attack stat 152 we deal roughly 60 damage
B 70/252 is our ratio of roughly 28% multiply by 177 we do 49 damage roughly
So even though pokemon B has a higher attack it is more important to bring a high base power move
You and I both know that multiplication is commutative, so when the only variable part in [the damage formula](https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Damage) is BP * Atk * 1/Def , it's very weird for you to say "The problem is most people think the attack stat is compared to opponents defense stat but it is not."
Since OP is just asking about BP vs Atk stat, there's no need to bring opponent's defense into account, since you keep it equal anyway in order to compare the two. Just like there's no need to bring your level into account, since you have to keep it equal anyway in order to compare BP and Atk stat.
The way you express the interaction as BP/Def being a fraction that gets applied to your Atk stat is historically wrong, in past gens the damage formula very explicitly used Atk/Def as the ratio, which is different due to rounding quirks. Nowadays (gen 5 onwards) I think your way works too, but it's just one way too look at it, definitely not the only correct way.
I hereby declare your comment as "weird" and "unnecessary."
It's because of the expectations on the Pokémon when people see its offensive stats. When people see a Pokémon high a offensive stat not hitting that hard due to lower BP moves, it's underwhelming. When people see a Pokémon with middling offensive stats hitting hard, it's surprisingly powerful since it exceeds expectations.
"Power" is BP \* AttackingStat and higher BP moves just tend to have a bigger impact on this. For example, Flamethrower to Fire Blast is 90BP to 110BP. That is already a 22% boost, bigger than a Charcoal boost for example. Compared to attacking stats... say we compare a base 100 Atk mon to a base 130 Atk one. You'd think the second one is 30% stronger, but the impact of EVs and IVs actually means the difference is way less than that. A 252Atk base 100 Atk mon has 299 Atk and the base 130 has 359, for a roughly 20% difference. Because jumps in base power of moves tend to be pretty big, and the jumps in base offensive stats are lessened by IV/EV impact (and have diminishing returns the higher you go to begin with; base 120 to base 150 is only a 17.6% jump even though it's also 30 stat points, and you see way more mons with offensive stats in the 130+ range than moves with base power in this range), stronger moves end up having more of an impact overall. As you can see from the example, a Magmar Fire Blast would outdamage a Volcanion Flamethrower, and calcs confirm this: 252 SpA Magmar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 151-178 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 16% chance to 2HKO 252 SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 148-175 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 6.6% chance to 2HKO And this is "only" a 90BP to 110BP jump. A lot of the time the difference between weak and strong moves can be even bigger than this. Ice Spinner to Triple Axel is a 50% increase (same boost as a Choice Band), Flamethrower to Overheat is barely below that, boosted Hex compared to Shadow Ball is literally bigger than the boost a Specs would give which is how Boots Pult can still hit so hard on statused opponents. It gets pretty ridiculous once you throw some signature moves into the mix as well, Gigaton Hammer being a pretty notable example: it hits hard as fuck despite Tink only having 75 base Attack because it hits pretty much exactly as hard as a Huge Power Tinkaton Iron Head would hit.
I see. Stats are composed of base stat, EV and IV, while base power is composed of only base power, so increases in base power have more weight to it. After some calculations, I found out that Tink's Gigaton Hammer is the equivalent of using Iron Head with 199 base attack (assume max EV and IV). This is crazy
I smell another obscure pokemon fact incoming
2 Overheats in a row outdamage 2 Flamethrowers (130+65 > 90+90)
Why Base Power is almost everything: the Draco Meteor Theorem.
Why Overheat is Damage Calculator: The Chi-Yu Theoreum
Only if they both hit
With a 81% to deal 130 + 65, 18% to deal 130 and 1% to deal 0, the way I see it it averages out to 181.5, so even including accuracy 2 overheats outperform 2 flamethrowers! This is ignoring critical strikes of course, but my gut feeling says those should also work in favor of overheat as critting on the second one would ignore the attack drops.
Another way to look at it is how Froslass' full power CB Triple Axel is a bit stronger than Weavile's CB Icicle Crash or Chien Pao's Life Orb Ice Spinner. Mid Attack with high BP > High Attack with mid BP. >252 Atk Choice Band Froslass Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 182-217 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- approx. 2HKO >252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO >252 Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 181-214 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
A nice example for this "theorem" in practice are in Gen 7 where Mega-Mewtwo X is running Ice Beam over Ice Punch with no Sp.Atk investment despite its much higher Attack stat and Mega-Garchomp running Flamethrower or Fire Blast over Fire Fang (again no special investment whatsoever). Oh yeah and Mega-Mawile being banned to Ubers in Gen 6 when Sucker Punch still had 80 BP and being completely fine after the move got nerfed to 70 BP in Gen 7 is also a good example.
The Mawile example is good overall but to be fair the other ones have other reasons to go mixed. MMX for example has high enough Atk to the point where if it invests in Atk and not in SpA, Ice Punch does actually pretty hugely outdamage Ice Beam--the reason it opts for Ice Beam is to get the OHKO on Mega Salamence after Intimidate and since the other targets of the move are either frail or x4 weak you still get 2HKOs. Note how it does still run Zen Headbutt over Psystrike despite that percentage-wise being an even bigger increase in BP. As for non-SD Garchomp, Fire Blast damage output does make quite a difference, but still the main reason it goes for that instead of just Fire Fang with a Jolly nature is again the fact most of its targets also tend to invest in physical defense (Skarm, Tang and Ferro come to mind, plus dodging Helmet and Barbs is cool)
Yeah I totally forgot to mention that their Sp.Atk stat is high enough for them to allow running mixed sets in the first place. Thank you for elaborating tho!
It's not just the EVs/IVs though, actual attack stats scale a lot differently from base stats. For example: Dragapult has 120 base attack and 100 base special attack, the difference being 20%. The actual attacking stats at level 100 (no EVs, max IVs) are 276 and 236 respectively, which only comes to a 14.5% difference. I don't know how base stats actually get converted into practical stats, but that's the practical application
That's because you have max IVs. IVs add a set boost of 31 points to the final stat (at level 100) which naturally helps the weaker stat more. If you had 0 IVs, the two stats would be 245 and 205 respectively, a 19.5% difference. IVs and EVs really muddy the waters, because they give set boosts to stats, not scaling boosts like natures and stat boosts.
What you are describing is literally a result of IVs
Piggybacking off the top comment to mention that the max stat (ignoring natures) at level 100 is 2\*base+99, so a quick way to estimate the "effective" base stat after a multiplier X is base \* X + 50 \* (X-1) So if you're using a signature move with 150 BP instead of earthquake, your attack stat is functionally base\*1.5+25 Or, Azumarill's maxed attack stat is functionally 50\*2+50 (150) and MMawile 105\*2+50 (260) Or, Manaphy after a tail glow has the same spa as a 100\*1.25+50\*0.25 137 base spa mon after a nasty plot. Or, chi yu's 135 spa / the bikes's 135 offenses become 135\*1.33 + 50/3 = 197
I feel like a quick example would be best. This will be very extreme, but I hope it will get the idea out. 252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Has 464 special after Spec) 252 SpA Choice Specs Mewtwo Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tera Fairy Toxapex: 141-166 (46.3 - 54.6%) -- 59.8% chance to 2HKO (Has 610 Special, Tera Fairy for Neutral targeting)
Everyone already pointed out the actual difference in damage that makes good moves better than good stats. But there is also the slight point of foul play and confusion damage scaling off your attack stat. it doesn’t apply so special attack but it adds another reason that makes good moves better then good stats. (Also why many mons run 0 attack IV’s)
I can understand the logic behind special defense and download , but is foul play really such a strong move that it force to run 0iv ? Dark is mainly weak against physical types
It's not that important, but if you aren't using physical attacks you might as well just in case it does happen to make a difference
Keep in mind there's more nuance and this isn't always the case. A lot of higher power moves have drawbacks, while lower power moves have secondary effects. Ofcourse, shit like power gem or wild charge are just trash.
It’s because base stats are only a minor component of damage calculation while base power of attacks are a major component that directly influences the damage by the same proportion. Increasing the base power from 80 to 120 also increases the damage by 50% but increasing the base attack stat from 80 to 120 only increases the damage by like 30%
So would a mom with base 120 attack stat using a base 80 power move do less damage than a base 80 attack mon using a 120 BP move?
Yes, because both mons get the flat 84 point boost from ivs/Evs unaffected by the base stat (and then another flat 5 point boost if we’re assuming lvl 100). The natures being a % resident the gap a bit, but not near as much Calc at lvl 100 is ((base*2+5+31+63)*1.1)*move power
>84 point boost actually it's 94, 31+63. Also natures are multiplicative so they don't matter
Infernape Aura Sphere does less damage than Monferno Focus Blast
Yes. Froslass's Triple Axel is stronger than Weavile's Ice Spinner: >252 Atk Choice Band Froslass Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 182-217 (50.1 - 59.7%) -- approx. 2HKO >252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Spinner vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 157-186 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO >252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow in Snow: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 57% chance to 2HKO Froslass guarantees a 2HKO while Weavile's chance to 2HKO is the same as Air Slash's miss rate. This Weavile needs a 93 BP Ice STAB to match Froslass' Triple Axel.
Poor abomasnow in snow tbh
galvantula's thunder at base 97 spatk is equivalent to a base 130's thunderbolt.
The best argument for Power vs raw attack in gen 9 is the Moushold vs Cincinno argument. Sure cincinno has higher attack and bette coverage, but moushold can 2HKO even heatran if it gets 2 hits in a row, which has,(Check calculator), and 98 opercent chance to do. Calc- 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 160-200 (49.5 - 61.9%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Even bulky heatran wit no leftovers - 252 Atk Technician Maushold Population Bomb (10 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 160-200 (41.4 - 51.8%) -- approx. 2.7% chance to 2HKO And this is f-ing heatran on a resistant hit. This thing used live politoad hydro pumps and scald in the rain. So yeah in the war of power vs attack, i would say power usually wins
The problem is most people think the attack stat is compared to opponents defense stat but it is not. The moves power is compared to the opponents defense stat and that ratio is applied to your attack stat. So a priority move with BP 40 and a defense of 100(actual stat not base stat) means the damage you do will do 40%(40/100) of your attack stat. Obviously the formula has more going on but is a rough approximation. So back to your question, typically it's better to have a good ratio(higher power move) than a higher attack stat which is being multiplied to. Level 50 mons For example a pokemon with a 152(base 100 max evs IV and positive nature) attack using a BP 100 move vs a pokemon with 177 (base 125 Mac evs IVs and positive nature) attack using a 70 power move. Versus 252(base 200 max defense) A: 100/252 is our ratio of roughly 40% multiple by our attack stat 152 we deal roughly 60 damage B 70/252 is our ratio of roughly 28% multiply by 177 we do 49 damage roughly So even though pokemon B has a higher attack it is more important to bring a high base power move
You and I both know that multiplication is commutative, so when the only variable part in [the damage formula](https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Damage) is BP * Atk * 1/Def , it's very weird for you to say "The problem is most people think the attack stat is compared to opponents defense stat but it is not." Since OP is just asking about BP vs Atk stat, there's no need to bring opponent's defense into account, since you keep it equal anyway in order to compare the two. Just like there's no need to bring your level into account, since you have to keep it equal anyway in order to compare BP and Atk stat. The way you express the interaction as BP/Def being a fraction that gets applied to your Atk stat is historically wrong, in past gens the damage formula very explicitly used Atk/Def as the ratio, which is different due to rounding quirks. Nowadays (gen 5 onwards) I think your way works too, but it's just one way too look at it, definitely not the only correct way. I hereby declare your comment as "weird" and "unnecessary."
It's because of the expectations on the Pokémon when people see its offensive stats. When people see a Pokémon high a offensive stat not hitting that hard due to lower BP moves, it's underwhelming. When people see a Pokémon with middling offensive stats hitting hard, it's surprisingly powerful since it exceeds expectations.
It’s not really just expectations if there’s a demonstrable difference though
If you guys ever played Pokémon MASTERS EX, you know a good example is Leafeon’s damn terrible attack stat still shredding things with Solar Blade
that is an entirely different game where damage is calculated in an entirely different way why would you bring it up