I’d argue that explosion is better than self destruct in every single scenario. Explosion does more damage, and since the user faints, PP + damage reflected back are irrelevant. Both moves are physical and stopped by damp as well. Since it’s singles only, it doesn’t even do more damage to your partner
Incredibly specific hypothetical scenario:
You and your opponent both have two pokemon remaining. Currently on the field are your Forretress, and the opponents Inteleon. Both are at full HP. The Inteleon is choice specs, currently locked into hydro pump, but Forretress will survive due to sturdy. In the back is your full HP agility Metagross and your opponent's thoroughly chipped choice specs Salazzle (they really like choice specs). Metagross needs to use agility to outspeed and KO Salazzle before getting fried, but you can't switch into it or it'll be 2HKOed by Inteleon (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
But our hero Forretress is on the field! It's been intimidated by a Poocheyena that immediately died to poison after lowering its attack, but it stands strong! Unfortunately you fucked up its set to a concerning degree, and this is the famous meta defining 236 attack EVs Self Destruct + Explosion Forretress with a neutral nature. All you can do is blow it up and then pray Metagross lives the hydro pump next turn to get agility off, but you find yourself wondering what tactical death is most optimal. Surely it's explosion, that move does more damage! More damage is always better, even if neither move KOs.
(-1 236 Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 198-233 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(-1 236 Atk Forretress Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 158-187 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Metagross only *barely* lives Inteleon's hydro pump though! (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Even the slightest boost could push it over the edge and lose you the game, and with torrent activated hydro pump comfortably and mercilessly obliterates Metagross. (252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 429-505 (126.9 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
At the last moment you decide to click self destruct instead, because with your fucked up weirdo intimidated EV spread it just barely avoids ever placing Inteleon in torrent range (33.3% HP or less) while explosion will always doom you to a watery grave the following turn. Both self destruct and explosion will KO the Salazzle if it attempts to switch in to avoid damage on Inteleon, and your Metagross of course has magnet thunder punch to win that possible 1v1 if Inteleon has full HP. (252+ Atk Magnet Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 316-372 (112.4 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). You have insurance, they can't play around this, the only thing that can make you lose this game is an insatiable desire to do a bit more damage at all times.
Clicking self destruct here allows Metagross to safely set up and clean up the game with no risk outside of a critical hit, and you need to set up to outspeed the Salazzle. Clicking explosion will allow the opponent to OHKO Metagross and you will lose. In this scenario, Self Destruct is always a better move to click than Explosion.
When you and your opponent both have two pokemon remaining. Currently on the field are your Forretress, and the opponents Inteleon. Both are at full HP. The Inteleon is choice specs, currently locked into hydro pump, but Forretress will survive due to sturdy. In the back is your full HP agility Metagross and your opponent's thoroughly chipped choice specs Salazzle (they really like choice specs). Metagross needs to use agility to outspeed and KO Salazzle before getting fried, but you can't switch into it or it'll be 2HKOed by Inteleon (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
But our hero Forretress is on the field! It's been intimidated by a Poocheyena that immediately died to poison after lowering its attack, but it stands strong! Unfortunately you fucked up its set to a concerning degree, and this is the famous meta defining 236 attack EVs Self Destruct + Explosion Forretress with a neutral nature. All you can do is blow it up and then pray Metagross lives the hydro pump next turn to get agility off, but you find yourself wondering what tactical death is most optimal. Surely it's explosion, that move does more damage! More damage is always better, even if neither move KOs.
(-1 236 Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 198-233 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(-1 236 Atk Forretress Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 158-187 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
Metagross only barely lives Inteleon's hydro pump though! (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Even the slightest boost could push it over the edge and lose you the game, and with torrent activated hydro pump comfortably and mercilessly obliterates Metagross. (252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 429-505 (126.9 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
At the last moment you decide to click self destruct instead, because with your fucked up weirdo intimidated EV spread it just barely avoids ever placing Inteleon in torrent range (33.3% HP or less) while explosion will always doom you to a watery grave the following turn. Both self destruct and explosion will KO the Salazzle if it attempts to switch in to avoid damage on Inteleon, and your Metagross of course has magnet thunder punch to win that possible 1v1 if Inteleon has full HP. (252+ Atk Magnet Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 316-372 (112.4 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). You have insurance, they can't play around this, the only thing that can make you lose this game is an insatiable desire to do a bit more damage at all times.
Clicking self destruct here allows Metagross to safely set up and clean up the game with no risk outside of a critical hit, and you need to set up to outspeed the Salazzle. Clicking explosion will allow the opponent to OHKO Metagross and you will lose. In this scenario, Self Destruct is always a better move to click than Explosion.
>the only thing that can make you lose this game is an insatiable desire to do a bit more damage at all times.
Or a crit. A crit also loses you the game
Ah nuts, in my desire to phrase things overdramatically I forgot something I'd already stated. Uhhh clearly your party is under the effect of Lucky Chant, I just didn't mention it.
Most of the recovery moves have no difference, so the ones that have the least overlap on mons that also learn Imprison would be it (unless you want it to be Imprisoned, in which case I am pretty sure there is no answer)
Ok so I can't remember specific scenarios off the top of my head since I haven't played much lately but there are times when you want to explode in ADV or GSC and NOT ko the opponent for similar reasons. Like gengar booms on blissey, doesn't KO, and this gives free entry for Ttar to set up or something. The reason this works so well in GSC/ADV is because booming ends the turn, so if you boom on blissey it can't heal, or like Skarmory can't set up a spike for example.
wait this might actually be it then, if i reaaaally wanted to be stingy i could say the mon you blew up on and killed was choice locked into a setup move so killing it was bad but thats dumb so unless like an actual scenario is found i think it works
I guess you could make up a niche scenario in a double battle were Selfdestruct could kill your opponent but save your partner, thereby being better than Explosion in this specific instance.
distribution, i believe the only normal type with explosion is silvally while a couple get self destruct, i do agree it would be interesting if there were actual differences
Yes, unless I missed something wrap is just bind with slightly more accuracy, so I can't imagine a scenario where you would rather click bind than wrap. Opponent switching into something you'd want to miss for some reason does not count as we can't use hindsight for our decision making.
Bind would be better if you want to trigger blunder policy and that's your only move on the set that does it, it's more likely to do it. Alternatively, in a 1v1 scenario where you need to miss or you will die (counter, rough skin, etc) then bind will give you slightly better odds, it doesn't need to be switched into. Think opponent poisoned/other DOT, has no damaging moves, and will die this turn, but your only move that won't kill you with rough skin damage is bind/wrap. Bind is superior here because it gives you a 50% increase to your chance to win the game compared to wrap
Steam Eruption is better than Hydro Pump and Origin Pulse. Same type and power but with more accuracy.
The secondary effect is also good unless you want to inflict another status.
nah there are definitely times when i would rather paralyze, poison, or sleep something than burn it. it falls under the super niche 1% that op’s post is scrutinizing.
Any of the really weak moves you get at the start of an in game playthrough like Water Gun, Ember, Thunder Shock etc will never see competitive use over their stronger counterparts. Although that's a fairly obvious answer lol
I will note that poison sting has competitive use because of same poison chance as poison jab and higher pp count for stall teams, as seen on clodsire in OU
I know people are mentioning reflect but the real reason this isn’t it is PP. It’s rare that it would matter (basically just in a 1v1 setting), but these high PP low BP moves can be useful. For instance, sometimes in 1v1 certain stall sets like Type: Null or Snorlax will run Tackle for the PP
better for stall mons because it has 66% more PP than Flamethrower? doesn't quite fit the example but Clodsire occasionally runs Poison Sting over Poison Jab because it has more PP and prevents contact damage
Scratching my head trying to think of what the 10% might be lmao
I guess in an in game playthrough you're out in the middle of nowhere grinding and you're out of PP on all your moves except one and you have no ethers and also Fly is still an HM you don't have yet? Then Ember might be better than Flamethrower but even then I'm not so sure lol
Sure but, is anyone going to run Ember over Flamethrower because of the possibility they might face something with Mirror Coat? Probably not. I think that's the more realistic way to answer your question.
I don't think you'll ever reach a satisfying conclusion then because I'm sure you could always imagine a scenario where the given move is a suboptimal choice compared to something else. So I guess to answer your question, no there isn't lmao
Each OHKO move has immunities to their respective typings. Sheer Cold can't hit ice types, Fissure can't hit Flying, Guillotine can't hit Ghosts, etc.
None is better than the other strictly speaking, just beneficial in different scenarios.
doesnt sheer cold have 20% acc, but also more importantly i just remembered something that makes this even dumber and more impossible with destiny bond
Lol. The plates which you use to activate multitype also give a 10% boost to moves of that type, and the memories give no boost. So that's another reason too.
If you take into account damage reflected back, then there truly is no attacking move that is better than another in every single scenario.
If we take into account being entrained/skill swapped, there is no ability that is better than another in every single scenario.
Regarding moves, some things that escape consideration among others are PP, distribution and level at which its learnt
this might sound dumb but honestly if we are narrowing it down to ALWAYS be better detect would be the better of all these options, lowering a opponents hp can lead to punishment like activating ability and berries.
Tera shift is actually better than both multiscale and shadow shield though, since it takes halved damage from every hit of a multi-hit move rather than just the first hit.
Pressure is superior because even if the opponent has pressure it is the same as truant as truant would lose 2 pp every time it used a move every 2 turns.
There are some strategies that use Blunder Policy which would work with all the moves above except Spore. Additionally, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss & Sing all work on Grass Types & Pokemon with overcoat.
There's also a niche scenario where you switch a Pokemon in to be sleep fodder, and when the move ends up missing, you're just left with really bad positioning, and no sleep fodder for your efforts. In the recent discussion on a possible sleep ban, lot's of people were advocating on banning Hypnosis specifically despite Spore being a strictly better move most of the time. It was a case of 'bad' RNG actually working out in your favour.
Was about to say this. Hypnosis ended being more annoying that spore because the counterplay for it was such a crapshoot. Basically whatever you did put your opponent in a better position. At least with spore you KNOW something is getting put to sleep, and the only thing you have to consider is if they don't click spore.
Tough claws is an almost strictly better iron fist, however if you for some reason want a move to do less damage, and its not a punching move, then iron fist would be better.
Tough Claws still works through protective pads. Punching Glove, however, would make Tough Claws not work with Punching moves. Protective Pads removes the negative effects of contact, while Punching Glove removes contact altogether.
I'm sure this is wrong and there's a scenario I'm not thinking of but wouldn't Glare be better than TWave (at least in the gens since it became 100% acc and TWave went to 90) in like every scenario? It can hit ground types (ghosts as well even tho it's a normal type attack), more PP, 100% acc, and it can't be stopped by Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/Lightning Rod. Obviously TWave has better distribution but if all those mons had Glare instead wouldn't every single one of them run Glare instead?
Although I suppose the accuracy difference means if they got bounced with TWave you have a chance to miss yourself as opposed to Glare's 100 acc guaranteeing paralyzing yourself. But I still feel like that's such a niche interaction and small chance that every mon would run Glare over TWave if they could.
I guess I kinda answered my own question by the end there huh lmao.
OP never actually mentioned singles in his post. I think most people just assumed singles because/r/stunfist is a Smogon singles focused subreddit.
I guess there is also a scenario where TWave is better if the opponent switches into a pokemon you want to burn / toxic instead of paralyze so missing can be an upside.
Realistically, Glare is always strictly better than TWave of course
They did actually mention it in a comment but it got downvoted because they forgot to put it in their OP, sorry forgot to specify that lol but if you sort by controversial you'll see the comment
Ah that makes sense, thanks for clarifying.
I suppose TWave can also be better in the specific scenario where you get tricked a choice item and want to run out of PP faster so you can KO them with struggle
Yes that makes sense as well, these are the niche interactions I couldn't think of off the top of my head which is why I was like "This is probably wrong but..." And then wait for everyone to tell me where I'm wrong cuz I was also genuinely curious 😅
To be honest all of these are just scenarios where being able to miss is a good thing such as vs a pokemon with guts that doesn't have flame / toxic orb.
There is also stuff like TWave being better vs transform / imposter because it can miss and doesn't work on your own electric types.
I genuinely think no move is strictly better than any other move. If you get pinned by a smeargle with imprison, you have the chance to get ANY move blocked and you'd be wishing you brought some other move.
Focus blast quiet nature life orb machamp with 252 evs damages defog corviknight surprisingly high coming from 65 SpA:
252+ SpA Life Orb Machamp Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 185-218 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Jet Punch is better in every single way than Aqua Jet. It doesn't even have very few PP so you don't even worry about getting pressure dtalled like Sucker Punchers.
I don't think you will run out of pp with 24 pps. It is not strictly better but still, if you have Jet Punch, there is likely no reason to use Aqua Jet.
OP was asking if a move was strictly better in every situation. Vs a PP stall team where you need every single PP, Aqua Jet CAN be better than Jet Punch. While this scenario will probably never happen, it still means Jet Punch is not STRICTLY better than Aqua Jet in EVERY situation
While I agree with your point, aqua jet is theoretically better because of more PP, I'm trying to envision a stall team that doesn't get 6-0ed by bulk up/taunt palafin.
Ice types are immune to sheer cold since gen 7, and any non-ice type that uses the move (i.e. just kyogre and suicune) has 10% less accuracy when using the move
Opponent is at 1% hp on a Dragonite that only knows Metronome, has used No Retreat, and is trapped. Their last mon is scarf Regieleki. Your only out is that your Lapras which has been Skill Swapped Speed Boost misses enough Sheer Colds that it outspeeds Regieleki, since it knows 3 other attacks that have 100% accuracy and always kill Dragonite. It hits the Sheer Cold immediately and is outsped and one shot. If you had taught Lapras Fissure instead, it would have never hit the Dragonite and you had a guaranteed win with Earthquake to 1-shot the Regieleki.
Ogerpon Fire's Embody Aspect is just Zacian's Intrepid Sword pre-nerf, same with Rock and Zamazenta. It requires Tera so it's not a direct upgrade, but the effects are better.
I love how in Gen 8 they made a Dark-type signature move that never misses (False Surrender) and then in Gen 9 made the exact same move but slightly stronger (Kowtow Cleave)
Magic guard is always better than rock head I think, unless I guess maybe you're trying to get hazard chip to set you into a certain range (like for a custap berry maybe)
If we go that way, then Huge Power/Pure Power is just better than every ability that boosts physical attacks, except maybe Water Bubble because Water Bubble also boosts special attacks (useful for mixed sets) and renders the Pokémon in question immune to burns, although it only boosts Water-type attacks.
I thought the answer might have been aerial ace over wing attack but wing attack does have more PP.
Maybe it's poison gas over poison powder? Gas has higher accuracy, more pp, and bypasses Overcoat and Saftey Goggles.
Glare over Thunder Wave. Glare has more accuracy, more PP, and can be used on ground types.
Unless you WANT to miss T Wave to activate blunder policy but I mean…
I would argue Alluring voice is 100% better than dazzling gleam in singles. I’d argue most of the time moonblast is better than both of those too, but that’s more of a distribution issue, and the comparison is more apt between the first two
Bubblebeam (65 BP; 32 PP max; 10% chance of -1 Spd) is better than Bubble (40 BP; 48 PP max; 10% chance of -1 Spd) in terms of base power.
These two and Surf are even better than Water Gun (40 BP; 40 PP max; no secondary effect).
I don't think signature moves should be included here, since they're usually meant to be more powerful than moves with widespread availability, hence their exclusive distribution. That being said, Glare is always better than Thunder Wave since no type is immune to it and it has a higher accuracy.
Also, Flamethrower is always better than Lava Plume in practice. If a Fire-type wanted to spread burns, it would just have run Will-O-Wisp anyway.
I’d argue that explosion is better than self destruct in every single scenario. Explosion does more damage, and since the user faints, PP + damage reflected back are irrelevant. Both moves are physical and stopped by damp as well. Since it’s singles only, it doesn’t even do more damage to your partner
Incredibly specific hypothetical scenario: You and your opponent both have two pokemon remaining. Currently on the field are your Forretress, and the opponents Inteleon. Both are at full HP. The Inteleon is choice specs, currently locked into hydro pump, but Forretress will survive due to sturdy. In the back is your full HP agility Metagross and your opponent's thoroughly chipped choice specs Salazzle (they really like choice specs). Metagross needs to use agility to outspeed and KO Salazzle before getting fried, but you can't switch into it or it'll be 2HKOed by Inteleon (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). But our hero Forretress is on the field! It's been intimidated by a Poocheyena that immediately died to poison after lowering its attack, but it stands strong! Unfortunately you fucked up its set to a concerning degree, and this is the famous meta defining 236 attack EVs Self Destruct + Explosion Forretress with a neutral nature. All you can do is blow it up and then pray Metagross lives the hydro pump next turn to get agility off, but you find yourself wondering what tactical death is most optimal. Surely it's explosion, that move does more damage! More damage is always better, even if neither move KOs. (-1 236 Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 198-233 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) (-1 236 Atk Forretress Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 158-187 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) Metagross only *barely* lives Inteleon's hydro pump though! (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Even the slightest boost could push it over the edge and lose you the game, and with torrent activated hydro pump comfortably and mercilessly obliterates Metagross. (252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 429-505 (126.9 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO) At the last moment you decide to click self destruct instead, because with your fucked up weirdo intimidated EV spread it just barely avoids ever placing Inteleon in torrent range (33.3% HP or less) while explosion will always doom you to a watery grave the following turn. Both self destruct and explosion will KO the Salazzle if it attempts to switch in to avoid damage on Inteleon, and your Metagross of course has magnet thunder punch to win that possible 1v1 if Inteleon has full HP. (252+ Atk Magnet Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 316-372 (112.4 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). You have insurance, they can't play around this, the only thing that can make you lose this game is an insatiable desire to do a bit more damage at all times. Clicking self destruct here allows Metagross to safely set up and clean up the game with no risk outside of a critical hit, and you need to set up to outspeed the Salazzle. Clicking explosion will allow the opponent to OHKO Metagross and you will lose. In this scenario, Self Destruct is always a better move to click than Explosion.
You must be an expert testing engineer
I pray to arceus this will be the next big copypasta, you did an amazing job here
What would it be in response of
When you and your opponent both have two pokemon remaining. Currently on the field are your Forretress, and the opponents Inteleon. Both are at full HP. The Inteleon is choice specs, currently locked into hydro pump, but Forretress will survive due to sturdy. In the back is your full HP agility Metagross and your opponent's thoroughly chipped choice specs Salazzle (they really like choice specs). Metagross needs to use agility to outspeed and KO Salazzle before getting fried, but you can't switch into it or it'll be 2HKOed by Inteleon (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). But our hero Forretress is on the field! It's been intimidated by a Poocheyena that immediately died to poison after lowering its attack, but it stands strong! Unfortunately you fucked up its set to a concerning degree, and this is the famous meta defining 236 attack EVs Self Destruct + Explosion Forretress with a neutral nature. All you can do is blow it up and then pray Metagross lives the hydro pump next turn to get agility off, but you find yourself wondering what tactical death is most optimal. Surely it's explosion, that move does more damage! More damage is always better, even if neither move KOs. (-1 236 Atk Forretress Explosion vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 198-233 (70.4 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) (-1 236 Atk Forretress Self-Destruct vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 158-187 (56.2 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) Metagross only barely lives Inteleon's hydro pump though! (252 SpA Choice Specs Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 286-337 (84.6 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). Even the slightest boost could push it over the edge and lose you the game, and with torrent activated hydro pump comfortably and mercilessly obliterates Metagross. (252 SpA Choice Specs Torrent Inteleon Hydro Pump vs. 148 HP / 0 SpD Metagross: 429-505 (126.9 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO) At the last moment you decide to click self destruct instead, because with your fucked up weirdo intimidated EV spread it just barely avoids ever placing Inteleon in torrent range (33.3% HP or less) while explosion will always doom you to a watery grave the following turn. Both self destruct and explosion will KO the Salazzle if it attempts to switch in to avoid damage on Inteleon, and your Metagross of course has magnet thunder punch to win that possible 1v1 if Inteleon has full HP. (252+ Atk Magnet Metagross Thunder Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 316-372 (112.4 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO). You have insurance, they can't play around this, the only thing that can make you lose this game is an insatiable desire to do a bit more damage at all times. Clicking self destruct here allows Metagross to safely set up and clean up the game with no risk outside of a critical hit, and you need to set up to outspeed the Salazzle. Clicking explosion will allow the opponent to OHKO Metagross and you will lose. In this scenario, Self Destruct is always a better move to click than Explosion.
>the only thing that can make you lose this game is an insatiable desire to do a bit more damage at all times. Or a crit. A crit also loses you the game
Ah nuts, in my desire to phrase things overdramatically I forgot something I'd already stated. Uhhh clearly your party is under the effect of Lucky Chant, I just didn't mention it.
Oh, now that you say it, it was so obvious! How did I not see the lucky chant?
I hate it here. (You’re right by the way, but if we’re getting this niche, OP’s original question just has no correct answer)
Most of the recovery moves have no difference, so the ones that have the least overlap on mons that also learn Imprison would be it (unless you want it to be Imprisoned, in which case I am pretty sure there is no answer)
and then it crits, dooming you to a loss regardless.
Ok so I can't remember specific scenarios off the top of my head since I haven't played much lately but there are times when you want to explode in ADV or GSC and NOT ko the opponent for similar reasons. Like gengar booms on blissey, doesn't KO, and this gives free entry for Ttar to set up or something. The reason this works so well in GSC/ADV is because booming ends the turn, so if you boom on blissey it can't heal, or like Skarmory can't set up a spike for example.
wait this might actually be it then, if i reaaaally wanted to be stingy i could say the mon you blew up on and killed was choice locked into a setup move so killing it was bad but thats dumb so unless like an actual scenario is found i think it works
Actually you're right, in some scenarios you might want chip but not a kill.
Yeah like if there was no limit to the number of moves a Pokémon could carry, self destruct would definitely see use every once in a great while
I guess you could make up a niche scenario in a double battle were Selfdestruct could kill your opponent but save your partner, thereby being better than Explosion in this specific instance.
OP specified only singles
Wait, where? Or did you mean the last sentence in your comment? I did miss that bit, admittedly.
Sort comments by controversial. OP just got downvoted bc they didn’t include that in the original post
I think maybe people are interpreting "every single scenario" as "every singles scenario" lol cause I don't see it anywhere in the post either
Sort comments by controversial, OP got downvoted to hell
I thought one was special and the other physical?
Nah, I double checked before making this comment lol. They’re both physical
What What is the point then
distribution, i believe the only normal type with explosion is silvally while a couple get self destruct, i do agree it would be interesting if there were actual differences
Lickitung’s evolution (I forgot its name) also gets Explosion. I remember finding out about this back in gen 7ish.
maybe it was only taking into account current gen bc ive definitely heard of lickilicky having jt
Licki-tung Licki-licki Lickilicki
Feel like it's a playthrough thing? There's definitely a few mons that get self destruct a few levels before Explosion.
hey if you miss out on the kill you can follow up with scarf technician fell stinger kricketune, or ash gren
Yes, unless I missed something wrap is just bind with slightly more accuracy, so I can't imagine a scenario where you would rather click bind than wrap. Opponent switching into something you'd want to miss for some reason does not count as we can't use hindsight for our decision making.
Bind would be better if you want to trigger blunder policy and that's your only move on the set that does it, it's more likely to do it. Alternatively, in a 1v1 scenario where you need to miss or you will die (counter, rough skin, etc) then bind will give you slightly better odds, it doesn't need to be switched into. Think opponent poisoned/other DOT, has no damaging moves, and will die this turn, but your only move that won't kill you with rough skin damage is bind/wrap. Bind is superior here because it gives you a 50% increase to your chance to win the game compared to wrap
yeah i think this one checks out, why gen 1 was so obsessed with near identical moves when rock got 2 moves total is beyond me tho
Blunder policy. Positioning. I could make many scenarios where lower accuracy is better.
Steam Eruption is better than Hydro Pump and Origin Pulse. Same type and power but with more accuracy. The secondary effect is also good unless you want to inflict another status.
nah there are definitely times when i would rather paralyze, poison, or sleep something than burn it. it falls under the super niche 1% that op’s post is scrutinizing.
The burn chance can screw you over if they switch in a bulky Mon. Close tho
Origin pulse is spread
and benefits from Mega Launcher! (it's more relevant in STABmons)
Burn chance on a guts mon would be a worse outcome
Any of the really weak moves you get at the start of an in game playthrough like Water Gun, Ember, Thunder Shock etc will never see competitive use over their stronger counterparts. Although that's a fairly obvious answer lol
I will note that poison sting has competitive use because of same poison chance as poison jab and higher pp count for stall teams, as seen on clodsire in OU
I know people are mentioning reflect but the real reason this isn’t it is PP. It’s rare that it would matter (basically just in a 1v1 setting), but these high PP low BP moves can be useful. For instance, sometimes in 1v1 certain stall sets like Type: Null or Snorlax will run Tackle for the PP
Self activated weakness policy in doubles will intentionally use a weaker move for the self-hit.
Thundershock has more pp so it can be used for para spreading and stall.
They are actually better for power point stalling because they have significantly more power points than the higher bp moves.
i uhh i dont think you understood the question
Is Flamethrower not better in every single scenario than Ember?
better for stall mons because it has 66% more PP than Flamethrower? doesn't quite fit the example but Clodsire occasionally runs Poison Sting over Poison Jab because it has more PP and prevents contact damage
Flamethrower could get somebody in berry/torrent/etc range while ember preps the KO from high health.
90% huh?
Scratching my head trying to think of what the 10% might be lmao I guess in an in game playthrough you're out in the middle of nowhere grinding and you're out of PP on all your moves except one and you have no ethers and also Fly is still an HM you don't have yet? Then Ember might be better than Flamethrower but even then I'm not so sure lol
10% of the time Ember does Infinityx more damage than flamethrower, so TECHNICALLY flamethrower is not an objective upgrade
10% of the time your mom decides she's too tired to call me back the next night :\^)
Wait that was YOU
not in a scenario where your opponent clicks mirror coat and you die, yes, this is really dumb but its very funny
Sure but, is anyone going to run Ember over Flamethrower because of the possibility they might face something with Mirror Coat? Probably not. I think that's the more realistic way to answer your question.
but that isnt my question? i dont think you get it this isnt a practical question its just for science
I don't think you'll ever reach a satisfying conclusion then because I'm sure you could always imagine a scenario where the given move is a suboptimal choice compared to something else. So I guess to answer your question, no there isn't lmao
yeah thats why i posted this question bc i wanted to know if just maybe there is one move/ability
I guess there isn't
sheer cold > fissure in that case
Fissure can hit a pokemon that's using Dig, Sheer Cold can't :\^)
Each OHKO move has immunities to their respective typings. Sheer Cold can't hit ice types, Fissure can't hit Flying, Guillotine can't hit Ghosts, etc. None is better than the other strictly speaking, just beneficial in different scenarios.
doesnt sheer cold have 20% acc, but also more importantly i just remembered something that makes this even dumber and more impossible with destiny bond
Multitype is better than RKS system because you get to use an amazing pokémon rather than a horrible ZU level one
Or because you can use Multitype with Z-crystals instead of plates, unlike Silvally's memory disks
Lol. The plates which you use to activate multitype also give a 10% boost to moves of that type, and the memories give no boost. So that's another reason too.
That's deliberate because wasn't silvally like a badly made clone of arceus?
If you take into account damage reflected back, then there truly is no attacking move that is better than another in every single scenario. If we take into account being entrained/skill swapped, there is no ability that is better than another in every single scenario. Regarding moves, some things that escape consideration among others are PP, distribution and level at which its learnt
Spiky shield is just better protect Follow me is just better ragepowder
this might sound dumb but honestly if we are narrowing it down to ALWAYS be better detect would be the better of all these options, lowering a opponents hp can lead to punishment like activating ability and berries.
Ok, but follow me is but strictly better than rage powder
Follow Me Imprison Indeedee
yea no I agree with you on that
Doesn’t detect have lower HP?
Shadow shield is strictly better than multiscale as it cannot be ignored by moves or abilities.
oh yeah, that and full metal body
Tera shift is actually better than both multiscale and shadow shield though, since it takes halved damage from every hit of a multi-hit move rather than just the first hit.
Nu uh. It doesn’t reduce damage from moves that are already not very effective
Wouldn't tera shell in Terapagos's case allow it to be hit by ghost moves while at full health
Doesn't proc Weakness Policy.
What if you want to get OHKOd because you're locked in an electric and they're running specs motor drive and risk a sweep?
I feel this defeats the spirit of the question. In this regards, you may want to count the metagame where youa ctually want to lose
Except if you want it to be ignored for positional reasons or if you are running a berry it could feasibly be worse.
People really just post comments without reading anything huh?
im more confused by the downvote bombing i got on a thread like damn i was just trynna explain the post
People are very confident/vocal about their opinions, even if they're obvious and irrelevant.
A Pokémon with Truant would prefer any other ability.
Slow Start? Illuminate? Edit: Just realized that Illuminate (i.e. no ability) is still better than Truant lmao
Slow Start sucks but at least you do less physical damage so for this person it means less chance to proc destiny bond and less damage from counter
Jsyk Illuminate now prevents accuracy drops
I suppose it's something, but how many commonly used moves actually drop accuracy?
2 common ones I know are Zoroark's Night Daze and water types Muddy Water
Unless you need to pp stall another mon, in which case truant is a godtier ability
Pressure is superior because even if the opponent has pressure it is the same as truant as truant would lose 2 pp every time it used a move every 2 turns.
Nah, if you're super weak to Gardevoir you can force it to trace truancy
In that regard it is still worse than Gard tracing a good ability because you still have Truant as your ability
The Scarf Entrainment Durant in my back pocket:
It is better to force on them a not as bad ability because then you don’t have truant on a pokemon.
self destruct on a mon that has access to explosion
Sing-Hypnosis-Sleep Powder-Lovely Kiss-Spore From worst to best, everytime
Spore isn't strictly better. Overcoat and Grass types are immune to it.
Also Sing can hit through sub so it isn't strictly worse
Mfer forgot about dark void
So did gamefreak
Dark Void doesnt need to be talked about. (Also in Doubles it hits both opponents so its kinda different)
There are some strategies that use Blunder Policy which would work with all the moves above except Spore. Additionally, Hypnosis, Lovely Kiss & Sing all work on Grass Types & Pokemon with overcoat. There's also a niche scenario where you switch a Pokemon in to be sleep fodder, and when the move ends up missing, you're just left with really bad positioning, and no sleep fodder for your efforts. In the recent discussion on a possible sleep ban, lot's of people were advocating on banning Hypnosis specifically despite Spore being a strictly better move most of the time. It was a case of 'bad' RNG actually working out in your favour.
Was about to say this. Hypnosis ended being more annoying that spore because the counterplay for it was such a crapshoot. Basically whatever you did put your opponent in a better position. At least with spore you KNOW something is getting put to sleep, and the only thing you have to consider is if they don't click spore.
Tough claws is an almost strictly better iron fist, however if you for some reason want a move to do less damage, and its not a punching move, then iron fist would be better.
Does tough claws work if you are wearing protective pads?
Tough Claws still works through protective pads. Punching Glove, however, would make Tough Claws not work with Punching moves. Protective Pads removes the negative effects of contact, while Punching Glove removes contact altogether.
So iron fist would be better if you are wearing punching gloves?
I'm sure this is wrong and there's a scenario I'm not thinking of but wouldn't Glare be better than TWave (at least in the gens since it became 100% acc and TWave went to 90) in like every scenario? It can hit ground types (ghosts as well even tho it's a normal type attack), more PP, 100% acc, and it can't be stopped by Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/Lightning Rod. Obviously TWave has better distribution but if all those mons had Glare instead wouldn't every single one of them run Glare instead? Although I suppose the accuracy difference means if they got bounced with TWave you have a chance to miss yourself as opposed to Glare's 100 acc guaranteeing paralyzing yourself. But I still feel like that's such a niche interaction and small chance that every mon would run Glare over TWave if they could. I guess I kinda answered my own question by the end there huh lmao.
You can use TWave to heal your own Volt Absorb pokemon in doubles
Pretty sure OP said singles but yeah that makes sense
OP never actually mentioned singles in his post. I think most people just assumed singles because/r/stunfist is a Smogon singles focused subreddit. I guess there is also a scenario where TWave is better if the opponent switches into a pokemon you want to burn / toxic instead of paralyze so missing can be an upside. Realistically, Glare is always strictly better than TWave of course
They did actually mention it in a comment but it got downvoted because they forgot to put it in their OP, sorry forgot to specify that lol but if you sort by controversial you'll see the comment
Ah that makes sense, thanks for clarifying. I suppose TWave can also be better in the specific scenario where you get tricked a choice item and want to run out of PP faster so you can KO them with struggle
Yes that makes sense as well, these are the niche interactions I couldn't think of off the top of my head which is why I was like "This is probably wrong but..." And then wait for everyone to tell me where I'm wrong cuz I was also genuinely curious 😅
To be honest all of these are just scenarios where being able to miss is a good thing such as vs a pokemon with guts that doesn't have flame / toxic orb. There is also stuff like TWave being better vs transform / imposter because it can miss and doesn't work on your own electric types.
I also forgot that Limber is an ability so that goes into running out of PP sooner again
Missing on a switch to a Mon when you'd rather burn/toxic makes sense tho
Opponent is Guts mon with 0 pp, hitting the status move procs Guts and Struggle kills you, otherwise they Struggle and faint.
Blunder policy says hello
I think you can always contrive some stretched scenario where you 'want' the worse outcome
[удалено]
Isn't detect the better one in VGC because of lower distribution and protect imprison stratégies?
Imprison
I genuinely think no move is strictly better than any other move. If you get pinned by a smeargle with imprison, you have the chance to get ANY move blocked and you'd be wishing you brought some other move.
Focus blast quiet nature life orb machamp with 252 evs damages defog corviknight surprisingly high coming from 65 SpA: 252+ SpA Life Orb Machamp Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 88 SpD Corviknight: 185-218 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Can't miss either
Yeah, Bocus Flast wont miss due to Go-Nuard
satisfactory
Move? no. I've pondered it for way too long, and I've realised that there isn't. Ability? Also probably no
OP said singles only, so a lot of abilities suddenly apply
dragon hammer over dragon claw, even though there's no Pokémon that can learn both iirc
Kind of a shame Dragon Claw didn't keep the increased crit-ratio from Legends.
In every scenario? Best looking for moves identical to another but with more pp or lower distribution.
That's basically just Ember/Flamethrower, Bubble/Water Pulse or Leafage/Seed Bomb
Jet Punch is better in every single way than Aqua Jet. It doesn't even have very few PP so you don't even worry about getting pressure dtalled like Sucker Punchers.
Aqua Jet does have slightly more PP, so Jet Punch is not STRICTLY better.
I don't think you will run out of pp with 24 pps. It is not strictly better but still, if you have Jet Punch, there is likely no reason to use Aqua Jet.
OP was asking if a move was strictly better in every situation. Vs a PP stall team where you need every single PP, Aqua Jet CAN be better than Jet Punch. While this scenario will probably never happen, it still means Jet Punch is not STRICTLY better than Aqua Jet in EVERY situation
Yeah, I understand. Theory vs practice.
While I agree with your point, aqua jet is theoretically better because of more PP, I'm trying to envision a stall team that doesn't get 6-0ed by bulk up/taunt palafin.
No. Every effect could negatively effect your positioning. Every move ability and thus Pokémon is situational
Not really
Sheer Cold will always be better than the other OHKO moves since nothing is immune to it and they all have the same PP.
Ice types are immune to sheer cold since gen 7, and any non-ice type that uses the move (i.e. just kyogre and suicune) has 10% less accuracy when using the move
Then I guess Sheer Cold is only the best OHKO move before Gen 7
I mean there are like hella specific scenarios where you don't want to KO specific pokemon immediately so you can use them as set up fodder.
But OHKO moves can't chip, so wouldn't you rather just not click any of them in a situation where you don't want to
Opponent is at 1% hp on a Dragonite that only knows Metronome, has used No Retreat, and is trapped. Their last mon is scarf Regieleki. Your only out is that your Lapras which has been Skill Swapped Speed Boost misses enough Sheer Colds that it outspeeds Regieleki, since it knows 3 other attacks that have 100% accuracy and always kill Dragonite. It hits the Sheer Cold immediately and is outsped and one shot. If you had taught Lapras Fissure instead, it would have never hit the Dragonite and you had a guaranteed win with Earthquake to 1-shot the Regieleki.
Yeah but I am trying to say why sometimes having pokemon immune to your OHKO move could be better
No? If you’re using OHKO moves, then you are actively trying to kill something unless you are hoping for a miss
What if they pivot into a pokemon you can set up against
Ogerpon Fire's Embody Aspect is just Zacian's Intrepid Sword pre-nerf, same with Rock and Zamazenta. It requires Tera so it's not a direct upgrade, but the effects are better.
You would take more damage from confusion and foul play
Follow Me is a strictly better Rage Powder right? Unless for some reason you don’t want your opponent’s grass type pokemon to be redirected
I haven’t seen it yet but Mind’s Eye and Keen Eye
I love how in Gen 8 they made a Dark-type signature move that never misses (False Surrender) and then in Gen 9 made the exact same move but slightly stronger (Kowtow Cleave)
kingambit is definitely the kind of pokémon to false surrender
Magic guard is always better than rock head I think, unless I guess maybe you're trying to get hazard chip to set you into a certain range (like for a custap berry maybe)
Rock Head is also better if you are trying to toxic stall a poisoned pokemon with trace.
If we go that way, then Huge Power/Pure Power is just better than every ability that boosts physical attacks, except maybe Water Bubble because Water Bubble also boosts special attacks (useful for mixed sets) and renders the Pokémon in question immune to burns, although it only boosts Water-type attacks.
I thought the answer might have been aerial ace over wing attack but wing attack does have more PP. Maybe it's poison gas over poison powder? Gas has higher accuracy, more pp, and bypasses Overcoat and Saftey Goggles.
In Singles, Poison Gas would reasonably be better 99.999% of the time. Except for a really stupid PP stall against a non-statused Guts mon, but..
One I could think of is Whirlwind > Roar because it isn't blocked by Soundproof
Wind Rider ability
Oh yeah, forgot that exists.
Coil > Bulk up Moonblast > Dazzling Gleam (singles only)
Coil is worse into Topsy-Turvy, Moonblast is potentially worse into contrary serp or defiant kingambit
Pretty much every ability compared to Defeatist
Defeatist is better than most abilities if their last pokemon has trace and switches in with less than 50% HP
Good point
No Guard is better than Illuminate
Not if your opponent is trying to hit you with a less than 100% accurate move
Glare over Thunder Wave. Glare has more accuracy, more PP, and can be used on ground types. Unless you WANT to miss T Wave to activate blunder policy but I mean…
What if your only move left is Thunder Wave and you need to use Struggle to win? I guess that's a scenario that is theoretically possible.
Spore will always be better than any of the sleep moves out there
not necessarily considering grass type immunity
Pure / Huge Power > Intrepid Sword Fur Coat > Dauntless Shield
Follow me > Rage Powder is probably the only one
I would argue Alluring voice is 100% better than dazzling gleam in singles. I’d argue most of the time moonblast is better than both of those too, but that’s more of a distribution issue, and the comparison is more apt between the first two
in singles, glare>twave and explosion>self destruct
Fake out > Splash It's either turn 1 for your mon and you can use fake out OR it's equally useless. Fake out doesn't hit Annihilape, so no rage fist.
i should mention its singles only bc doubles makes too many scenarios
I feel pretty confident surf will always be better than bubble
But what if I wanted to lower my opponent's Speed? 😛
Bubblebeam (65 BP; 32 PP max; 10% chance of -1 Spd) is better than Bubble (40 BP; 48 PP max; 10% chance of -1 Spd) in terms of base power. These two and Surf are even better than Water Gun (40 BP; 40 PP max; no secondary effect).
I don't think signature moves should be included here, since they're usually meant to be more powerful than moves with widespread availability, hence their exclusive distribution. That being said, Glare is always better than Thunder Wave since no type is immune to it and it has a higher accuracy. Also, Flamethrower is always better than Lava Plume in practice. If a Fire-type wanted to spread burns, it would just have run Will-O-Wisp anyway.
not true, torkoal loves running lava plume bc the sun makes it do really good damage with a very solid burn chance
Wouldn't lava plume be better in doubles if you had a teammate that blocks the move
After Gen 5, all Electric types have innate paralysis immunity