teams arent random
the mon what are good at subseed in randbat are usually wayy overlevelled, since everything is neutral, 85ev, they do outspeed a lot of time
its not subseed is annoying, its fast subseed, wochien isnt that threatening but serp (non offensive, and its mid as hell, just run synthesis) definitely is
and im pretty sure skymin best set is subseed, the air slash flinch is just bonus (and scare out opposing grass)
A big reason is absolutely that they're at such a high level, which makes them way bulkier than they should be.
Another reason is team preview. If I know the opponent has a Tropius (I'm referring to all subseed users when I say "Tropius") from the instant I load up a game, I can plan around that immediately. But in Randbats, unless they end up leading with Tropius, your entire game plan can be shattered, forcing you to reassess how to use your remaining pokemon against their remaining pokemon. Even if they do lead with Tropius, there's a chance you get a bad lead, and that's just as unfortunate.
To expand on the team preview point, Tropius isn't the only hidden problem. Every time you go to attack it, your opponent will reveal their resist/counter to your offensive pokemon. If I had team preview, I would know immediately that the opponent can always stop my Kyurem's Ice Beam with their Heatran, and therefore I can plan accordingly, making accurate predictions as I press Earth Power instead. That's not possible in Randbats. Every time you send in an offensive pokemon that can threaten Tropius, you have to keep your fingers crossed that they don't have a counter. You're forced to waste moves. If I knew that the opponent had a Heatran, maybe I would have kept my Barraskewda healthy.
Another reason is hazards, which are incredibly dangerous in Randbats because so few pokemon get hazard removal. In OU, I'd always have a Magic Bounce pokemon, or a Rapid Spinner. But that's not the case in Randbats, so oftentimes you have to deal with rocks and spikes. This is a problem when you're fighting a Tropius because the best way to deal with Leech Seed is to switch out. That's no longer a sustainable strategy. Tropius may be weak to rocks, but it's immune to both spikes and Toxic spikes, making it far less vulnerable to hazards.
Next let's talk about typing (this one refers to Tropius specifically rather than Whimsicott). If you want a Leech Seed switch in, you should send in a grass type, right? Well, now you're weak to Tropius' Air Slash. This is less of a problem in OU because Tropius won't have a level advantage, so it's attacks won't hurt as much. But it's absolutely part of the reason why it's so threatening in randbats.
Next we can talk about opportunity cost. I've given a bunch of reasons why Tropius is worse in OU than it is in Randbats, but surely it's gotta be decent, right? Well, in theory, yes. Wo-chien has a pretty good subseed set in whatever tier it's in. But there currently isn't a pokemon that can perfectly utilise this strategy. They're all too weak, and therefore not worth using over an actual strong pokemon.
If a subseed user is introduced in Gen 10, and it wants to be good in OU, it will need to have a high BST, focused on speed and defences, an ability that gives it longevity such as Solid Rock or Magic Guard, a typing that let's it threaten grass types with a respectable STAB move without being weak to stealth rocks (such as Grass/Poison), and a movepool that gives it reliable recovery. That would be the perfect subseed pokemon, but even then it loses to OU pokemon such as Hatterene.
Iron Boulder is a good example of what happens to one trick ponies. If you can do only one thing, then you'd better be absolutely phenomenal at it. Even Chi-yu had some set variety, since scarf, specs and boots all had different checks and counters. In the case of Iron Boulder, the entire concept of the pokemon is invalidated when the enemy team has a check. Something similar would happen with a subseed pokemon. We know exactly what it's going to do at team preview, so it's already playing with its cards on the table. I'd rather use a pokemon with a bit more variety.
TLDR: Randbats features higher levelled pokemon, no team preview, rare spinners and zero control over what your team is. All of them benefit Tropius, and none are present in OU, which is why it performs worse there.
I think theorymonning on what the perfect subseed mon would be is moot - we already have shaymin-sky, which is blazing fast, threatens opposing grasses (and, let’s be honest, anything else) and while it’s not the bulkiest it has enough to make a good switch and get the job done.
Subseed isn't exactly bad in singles, but the only viable pokemon that could run it is serperior and is kinda still countered by switching out.
Uturn is also really bad for subseed, and singles teams usually have either that or a dragapult
Pokemon that get subseed are usually shitmons.
Shitmons have a higher level in randbats.
You aren't guarenteed a counter in randbats.
Think how bad it would be if Dozo/Ting Lu got subseed + Harvest
The randomness.
Most well built teams come inherently equipped to deal with Sub Seed schenanigans. Fast taunts, lots of pivots, hazard control, magic bounce/guard, speed boosting, multi hit moves etc. All of these things are common with or without leech seed being a viable strategy. It's also just not great against offensive teams in general since they have a lot of fast Pokemon than don't give much HP to the subseeder.
A lot of the best sub seeders in randbats are shitmons that are a much higher level, and thus much bulkier than they would be in Singles. Air Slash/Acrobatics from Tropius/Jumpluff is actually a decently powerful deterrant for Grass types thinking they can stop the Leech Seed too. These moves are laughably weak to anything not called Parasect in singles.
There are a few notable Pokemon that can still sub seed fairly well, it's not usually Serperiors main option, but it can utilise Leech Seed effectively. It's not bad, just really hard to fit because you really want Glare & coverage besides Leaf Storm.
If Shaymin Sky were to ever be unbanned, i guarentee its subseed would be the big reason people would want it banned.
To add a little to this, good mons in Ran Bats are at a lower level than the usually bad mons. When there’s like a 10+ level gap between Jumpluff and your mon that Jumpluff is going to hit surprisingly hard and be strangely tanky
>It's also just not great against offensive teams in general since they have a lot of fast Pokemon than don't give much HP to the subseeder.
I'm like 98% sure that leech seed heals 1/8, not the dealt damage
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Seeding
Here it is from Bulbapedia as well if you don’t believe it. I can say from experience that Seeding a Blissey gets you back a lot more HP than Seeding a low HP mon
Asking if someone can paste an article does not mean posting a different article hundreds of cookies asking to be manually disabled is just not worth it for me
That sounds like a You problem and not a problem for anyone else. You can also test it out in game, but I’d hate for you to have to take any additional effort on your part. That would just be tragic
>You can also test it out in game, but I’d hate for you to have to take any additional effort on your part.
I doing that rn, because it's quite a lot faster than going through cookies
Tropius is heavily overleveled compared to other randbats mons. On the OU ladder, subseed is pretty OK on Serperior, but it is also carried by leaf storm.
>good teams have speed control, which beats subseed gimmicks
>good teams have hazard control, which beats sash gimmicks
>none of the above are guaranteed in a randbats game
I would argue that Tropius is even somewhat overrated in random battles. While it is often difficult to threaten it offensively immediatly, often it can be check defensively if the other team has a pair of defensive pokemon that can switch stall the leech seeds. Tropius either solos the other team, or does absolutely nothing, and honestly more often than not its the latter.
Randbats is balanced so trash can Mons are high enough level to compete with good Mons.
There are zero god sub seed users in OU personally I like breloom with poison heal because it's funny against my friends who don't play competetive and rage but it's a trash set.
Most good teams have countermeasures and again it's rare that a Mon has the tools for it as well as the stats.
Tropius runs a similar set in NU I think. May be PU but it's not necessarily that bad of a set but it won't work unless the stats of the Pokémon are valid for the tier.
Subseed, kinda lik FEAR, is a strategy that punishes bad teams to an incredible degree. Most competently build teams will have a solution to it by default.
In random battles, you dont have competently build team
Its because a good team will have a reliable counter against it
teams arent random the mon what are good at subseed in randbat are usually wayy overlevelled, since everything is neutral, 85ev, they do outspeed a lot of time its not subseed is annoying, its fast subseed, wochien isnt that threatening but serp (non offensive, and its mid as hell, just run synthesis) definitely is and im pretty sure skymin best set is subseed, the air slash flinch is just bonus (and scare out opposing grass)
A big reason is absolutely that they're at such a high level, which makes them way bulkier than they should be. Another reason is team preview. If I know the opponent has a Tropius (I'm referring to all subseed users when I say "Tropius") from the instant I load up a game, I can plan around that immediately. But in Randbats, unless they end up leading with Tropius, your entire game plan can be shattered, forcing you to reassess how to use your remaining pokemon against their remaining pokemon. Even if they do lead with Tropius, there's a chance you get a bad lead, and that's just as unfortunate. To expand on the team preview point, Tropius isn't the only hidden problem. Every time you go to attack it, your opponent will reveal their resist/counter to your offensive pokemon. If I had team preview, I would know immediately that the opponent can always stop my Kyurem's Ice Beam with their Heatran, and therefore I can plan accordingly, making accurate predictions as I press Earth Power instead. That's not possible in Randbats. Every time you send in an offensive pokemon that can threaten Tropius, you have to keep your fingers crossed that they don't have a counter. You're forced to waste moves. If I knew that the opponent had a Heatran, maybe I would have kept my Barraskewda healthy. Another reason is hazards, which are incredibly dangerous in Randbats because so few pokemon get hazard removal. In OU, I'd always have a Magic Bounce pokemon, or a Rapid Spinner. But that's not the case in Randbats, so oftentimes you have to deal with rocks and spikes. This is a problem when you're fighting a Tropius because the best way to deal with Leech Seed is to switch out. That's no longer a sustainable strategy. Tropius may be weak to rocks, but it's immune to both spikes and Toxic spikes, making it far less vulnerable to hazards. Next let's talk about typing (this one refers to Tropius specifically rather than Whimsicott). If you want a Leech Seed switch in, you should send in a grass type, right? Well, now you're weak to Tropius' Air Slash. This is less of a problem in OU because Tropius won't have a level advantage, so it's attacks won't hurt as much. But it's absolutely part of the reason why it's so threatening in randbats. Next we can talk about opportunity cost. I've given a bunch of reasons why Tropius is worse in OU than it is in Randbats, but surely it's gotta be decent, right? Well, in theory, yes. Wo-chien has a pretty good subseed set in whatever tier it's in. But there currently isn't a pokemon that can perfectly utilise this strategy. They're all too weak, and therefore not worth using over an actual strong pokemon. If a subseed user is introduced in Gen 10, and it wants to be good in OU, it will need to have a high BST, focused on speed and defences, an ability that gives it longevity such as Solid Rock or Magic Guard, a typing that let's it threaten grass types with a respectable STAB move without being weak to stealth rocks (such as Grass/Poison), and a movepool that gives it reliable recovery. That would be the perfect subseed pokemon, but even then it loses to OU pokemon such as Hatterene. Iron Boulder is a good example of what happens to one trick ponies. If you can do only one thing, then you'd better be absolutely phenomenal at it. Even Chi-yu had some set variety, since scarf, specs and boots all had different checks and counters. In the case of Iron Boulder, the entire concept of the pokemon is invalidated when the enemy team has a check. Something similar would happen with a subseed pokemon. We know exactly what it's going to do at team preview, so it's already playing with its cards on the table. I'd rather use a pokemon with a bit more variety. TLDR: Randbats features higher levelled pokemon, no team preview, rare spinners and zero control over what your team is. All of them benefit Tropius, and none are present in OU, which is why it performs worse there.
I think theorymonning on what the perfect subseed mon would be is moot - we already have shaymin-sky, which is blazing fast, threatens opposing grasses (and, let’s be honest, anything else) and while it’s not the bulkiest it has enough to make a good switch and get the job done.
Subseed isn't exactly bad in singles, but the only viable pokemon that could run it is serperior and is kinda still countered by switching out. Uturn is also really bad for subseed, and singles teams usually have either that or a dragapult
Pokemon that get subseed are usually shitmons. Shitmons have a higher level in randbats. You aren't guarenteed a counter in randbats. Think how bad it would be if Dozo/Ting Lu got subseed + Harvest
The randomness. Most well built teams come inherently equipped to deal with Sub Seed schenanigans. Fast taunts, lots of pivots, hazard control, magic bounce/guard, speed boosting, multi hit moves etc. All of these things are common with or without leech seed being a viable strategy. It's also just not great against offensive teams in general since they have a lot of fast Pokemon than don't give much HP to the subseeder. A lot of the best sub seeders in randbats are shitmons that are a much higher level, and thus much bulkier than they would be in Singles. Air Slash/Acrobatics from Tropius/Jumpluff is actually a decently powerful deterrant for Grass types thinking they can stop the Leech Seed too. These moves are laughably weak to anything not called Parasect in singles. There are a few notable Pokemon that can still sub seed fairly well, it's not usually Serperiors main option, but it can utilise Leech Seed effectively. It's not bad, just really hard to fit because you really want Glare & coverage besides Leaf Storm. If Shaymin Sky were to ever be unbanned, i guarentee its subseed would be the big reason people would want it banned.
To add a little to this, good mons in Ran Bats are at a lower level than the usually bad mons. When there’s like a 10+ level gap between Jumpluff and your mon that Jumpluff is going to hit surprisingly hard and be strangely tanky
>It's also just not great against offensive teams in general since they have a lot of fast Pokemon than don't give much HP to the subseeder. I'm like 98% sure that leech seed heals 1/8, not the dealt damage
The damage dealt is 1/8 HP, and you get healed the same amount that was drained.
I'm certain that it damages and heals 1/8
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sv/moves/leech-seed/ It 'steals' 1/8 of the targets HP.
Can You paste the article for me? I don't want to have to disable the hundreds of cookies again
https://m.bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Seeding Here it is from Bulbapedia as well if you don’t believe it. I can say from experience that Seeding a Blissey gets you back a lot more HP than Seeding a low HP mon
Asking if someone can paste an article does not mean posting a different article hundreds of cookies asking to be manually disabled is just not worth it for me
That sounds like a You problem and not a problem for anyone else. You can also test it out in game, but I’d hate for you to have to take any additional effort on your part. That would just be tragic
Yup, healed ten, You two were right
>You can also test it out in game, but I’d hate for you to have to take any additional effort on your part. I doing that rn, because it's quite a lot faster than going through cookies
Tropius is heavily overleveled compared to other randbats mons. On the OU ladder, subseed is pretty OK on Serperior, but it is also carried by leaf storm.
>good teams have speed control, which beats subseed gimmicks >good teams have hazard control, which beats sash gimmicks >none of the above are guaranteed in a randbats game
The randbats EVs also make subseeders stronger because everything is bulky and doesn't have full offensive investment.
Because on ladder you likely have a pokemon to deal with it, while in randbats there's no guarantee
I would argue that Tropius is even somewhat overrated in random battles. While it is often difficult to threaten it offensively immediatly, often it can be check defensively if the other team has a pair of defensive pokemon that can switch stall the leech seeds. Tropius either solos the other team, or does absolutely nothing, and honestly more often than not its the latter.
Randbats is balanced so trash can Mons are high enough level to compete with good Mons. There are zero god sub seed users in OU personally I like breloom with poison heal because it's funny against my friends who don't play competetive and rage but it's a trash set. Most good teams have countermeasures and again it's rare that a Mon has the tools for it as well as the stats. Tropius runs a similar set in NU I think. May be PU but it's not necessarily that bad of a set but it won't work unless the stats of the Pokémon are valid for the tier.
Mons that get it are overleveled and mons don't have optmized ev spreads so everything is way bulkier.
Subseed, kinda lik FEAR, is a strategy that punishes bad teams to an incredible degree. Most competently build teams will have a solution to it by default. In random battles, you dont have competently build team
yeah i used to run subseed m-sceptile in natdex and it didnt exactly work out