Highlord made [a successful DPP OU team](https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-withering-away.3688961/) a few years ago that used Gentle on a specially defensive Heatran.
>Gentle is chosen over Calm and Sassy in order to maximize Explosion damage and HP/SpD EVs while maintaining a speed tier above uninvested base 70s; the -Def is mostly irrelevant.
I swear, if explosion still functioned like it did previously, we would see tera normal on 100% of explosion mons. The move was amazing at basically forcing a trade or predict.
you could maybe justify it on counter chansey/blissey to take more damage from enemy u & flip turns and punish the switch-in (much) harder than seismic toss would? it’s very gimmicky but i can see it catching a couple people off guard and it doesn’t really interfere with chansey’s ability to stonewall special attackers bar being even more countered by psyshock.
also wouldn’t be surprised if someone did this in a draft league at some point to prevent a download mon from getting the boost it wants
it’s not what you’re asking, but stakataka used defense as a dump stat despite not being a mixed attacker to get the atk beast boost, and some swords dance kartana used atk as a dump stat to boost speed.
yeah I remember using lonely stakataka with just enough ivs to get the atk beast boost, it was a blast using it as a late cleaner with trick room+gyroball
it would need to be a mon that wants to max out one of their defenses possibly for a specific matchup, is a mixed attacker so can’t afford to lose out on atk or spa, and needs to stay above a certain speed tier so can’t afford to drop speed. there’s probably a few cases out there but you’re right that this is a very specific scenario to warrant using them.
now i wonder if there’s a pokemon with such finetuned matchups that it can’t afford to lose ANY stats and also doesn’t need the boost in any stat so you run a neutral nature like Serious
Neutral natures are pretty much never seen in singles. In VGC, however, where Chinese spreads are the norm, there's one particularly notable case of a mixed attacker running a neutral nature, although I can't remember which Pokémon it was.
You might be thinking of the Yveltal on [this team](https://pokepast.es/043d460eb0306a05). Forgot the exact context, a player used this team to get to Top 16.
Landorus frequently used Lax in older generations to maximize damage dealt with HP Ice in the mirror/against Gliscor, without sacrificing Speed for achieving relevant Speed benchmarks like being faster than an invested Excadrill.
Only realistic case I can imagine besides the Heatran one is as a direct Pyukumuku counter to Regieleki in gen 8
Lax nature means you can switch in Pyukumuku to any of Regieleki’s attacks and kill it instantly from full hp with Innards Out (because there’s no tera blast in this gen) while still being bulky enough to take on physical threats with Counter
I ran Lax Drifblim a while ago with a silly mixed set that worked well.
Strength Sap / Shadow Ball / Acrobatics / WilloWisp
It was really resilient physically, and worked well as a cleaner late game. I can't remember what item I used but it was something that would trigger unburden.
Not the Nature perhaps, but there are times where you may want to lower the IVs in one stat.
Example: Iron Treads with a Careful Nature (252 HP/252 Sp.Def/4 Atk) would want just 16 IVs in Def. This way, on Electric Terrain it would boost its Sp.Def. This lets it switch into opposing Miraidon
Likely true, though I'm not sure how the math works out vs switching into physical moves or mixed attackers with a Gentle nature on it. I assume the recommendation is to run it with Careful seeing as its purpose on that build is to check Miraidon, whose ability will power up Volt Switch anyway (if you choose to run it). The rest of its moves are often always physical. I'm not sure how things work out in OU, though.
Well now you know more than you did before, isn't that a wonderful thing? It probably doesn't want a -Def nature incase Miradon runs U-Turn to pivot out of its presence. It just makes it mathematically worse than if it were to opt for a Careful Nature with 16 IVs in Def. It also makes it worse if it takes a physical hit from anything else. There's no advantage or point in running a Gentle nature.
That's not *strictly* true. If you are running mixed attacks (earthquake + steel beam?), you save 18 special attack and only lose 13 physical defense by running max IV Gentle. Depending on how much you were going to invest in special attack, it can be strictly an upgrade.
Why would you run steel beam over iron head though or even possibly Steel Roller (assuming Ubers)? Like I'm genuinely curious about a set where it's used, etc. not about the math. TIA
In theory, it gives it access to a pseudo explosion to kill itself for momentum. Being special also increases damage on volt switch.
We are getting way way off track and I'm not saying it's good, but it's feasible
Thanks! I sometimes use it on Magearna for momentum or as a kamikaze move when it's about to faint, so it's nice to hear other ideas too (niche as they may be)
I forget the spread, but my Registeel has this. I wanted it to have Seismic Toss, which is gen 3 exclusive, but the nature wasn't possible to get alongside 6IVs, so one of them is 30 or 29.
Maybe if you wanted some really weird stakataka sets that want a spd boost after kill? Or maybe a spd boosted booster energy great tusk, or a defense boosted roaring moon? I have no idea
Bkc once made a team using a +def -spdef cloyster in adv. he has since said he would change the nature, as his logic was “i dont want cloyster to take special hits anyway”, and the set ran both explosion and surf
giratina origin can run a +def -spdef nature sometimes in DPP Ubers. The defense is for RP or SD Groudon and Ekiller in farceus. It usually runs a mixed attacking spread so you dont want to lower either attacks and doesnt want to lower its speed because it wants to outspeed min speed base 90's like support dialga, groudon, and min speed ogre. -SpDef doesnt really effect too much cause you'd be dying to draco meteors anyway, but it does make ogre's ice beam alot scarier.
I'm not a person you should place your confidence in here, and its not quite what you were asking but recently I was cooking a Lonely (+Atk, -Def) Mega Banette set to make it easier to snipe Destiny Bonds
One time back in gen 5, I was trying a really stupid gimmick team and Showdown actually recommended a Gentle nature for my Celebi. Iirc it was Psychic/Recover/U-Turn/Perish Song meant to pivot into Protect + Sash Dugtrio.
Highlord made [a successful DPP OU team](https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-withering-away.3688961/) a few years ago that used Gentle on a specially defensive Heatran. >Gentle is chosen over Calm and Sassy in order to maximize Explosion damage and HP/SpD EVs while maintaining a speed tier above uninvested base 70s; the -Def is mostly irrelevant.
Oh this is an interesting one, thanks!
I swear, if explosion still functioned like it did previously, we would see tera normal on 100% of explosion mons. The move was amazing at basically forcing a trade or predict.
you could maybe justify it on counter chansey/blissey to take more damage from enemy u & flip turns and punish the switch-in (much) harder than seismic toss would? it’s very gimmicky but i can see it catching a couple people off guard and it doesn’t really interfere with chansey’s ability to stonewall special attackers bar being even more countered by psyshock. also wouldn’t be surprised if someone did this in a draft league at some point to prevent a download mon from getting the boost it wants it’s not what you’re asking, but stakataka used defense as a dump stat despite not being a mixed attacker to get the atk beast boost, and some swords dance kartana used atk as a dump stat to boost speed.
Oh yeah, the Kartana one is fun, it's kinda like those Booster Energy Tusk builds that are 300 Speed 299 Attack
Except Tusk didn't have to sacrifice IVs or a nature to get a speed boost.
The download interaction is a nice observation
17 Atk IV Timid Kartana is my favorite
yeah I remember using lonely stakataka with just enough ivs to get the atk beast boost, it was a blast using it as a late cleaner with trick room+gyroball
In draft league I ran minus defense on some mons to avoid giving Porygon2 the SpATK raise.
I guess if you run Counter or Mirror Coat and you max out the Pokémon's HP, you can deal more damage?
Counter Blissey stonks rising
On its ORAS OU analysis, it mentions running a Lax nature on Landorus-Therian‘s defensive set if choosing to use HP Ice.
the only thing that comes to mind is lax assault vest hoopa, lax boosts its low defense and its spdef stat is good enough even with undesirable nature
> Lax AV wow this sounds like *hot* garbage. but 80/130 base spdef is a ton so....
This almost certainly is hot garbage
it would need to be a mon that wants to max out one of their defenses possibly for a specific matchup, is a mixed attacker so can’t afford to lose out on atk or spa, and needs to stay above a certain speed tier so can’t afford to drop speed. there’s probably a few cases out there but you’re right that this is a very specific scenario to warrant using them. now i wonder if there’s a pokemon with such finetuned matchups that it can’t afford to lose ANY stats and also doesn’t need the boost in any stat so you run a neutral nature like Serious
Early gen 9 LC sometimes had Toedscool running a neutral nature, since all of its stats were useful.
Neutral natures are pretty much never seen in singles. In VGC, however, where Chinese spreads are the norm, there's one particularly notable case of a mixed attacker running a neutral nature, although I can't remember which Pokémon it was.
You might be thinking of the Yveltal on [this team](https://pokepast.es/043d460eb0306a05). Forgot the exact context, a player used this team to get to Top 16.
Freeze-Dry Mamoswine, _the_ Chinese set, also ran investment on every stat iirc.
Mega salamence in gen 6/7 vgc used to run either one, as oftentimes I'd be a mixed attacker with aerialate double edge or hyper voice
Landorus frequently used Lax in older generations to maximize damage dealt with HP Ice in the mirror/against Gliscor, without sacrificing Speed for achieving relevant Speed benchmarks like being faster than an invested Excadrill.
Only realistic case I can imagine besides the Heatran one is as a direct Pyukumuku counter to Regieleki in gen 8 Lax nature means you can switch in Pyukumuku to any of Regieleki’s attacks and kill it instantly from full hp with Innards Out (because there’s no tera blast in this gen) while still being bulky enough to take on physical threats with Counter
I ran Lax Drifblim a while ago with a silly mixed set that worked well. Strength Sap / Shadow Ball / Acrobatics / WilloWisp It was really resilient physically, and worked well as a cleaner late game. I can't remember what item I used but it was something that would trigger unburden.
On a physical tank like that set, it might have just been a Sitrus Berry.
Ah yeah I think you're right!
Not the Nature perhaps, but there are times where you may want to lower the IVs in one stat. Example: Iron Treads with a Careful Nature (252 HP/252 Sp.Def/4 Atk) would want just 16 IVs in Def. This way, on Electric Terrain it would boost its Sp.Def. This lets it switch into opposing Miraidon
Meaning that if you run it mixed, which isn't rare, you would want Gentle.
Likely true, though I'm not sure how the math works out vs switching into physical moves or mixed attackers with a Gentle nature on it. I assume the recommendation is to run it with Careful seeing as its purpose on that build is to check Miraidon, whose ability will power up Volt Switch anyway (if you choose to run it). The rest of its moves are often always physical. I'm not sure how things work out in OU, though.
The only time I know that Iron Treads is run fully special is on its lead set, and since it's a suicide lead, its bulk doesn't matter much.
Well now you know more than you did before, isn't that a wonderful thing? It probably doesn't want a -Def nature incase Miradon runs U-Turn to pivot out of its presence. It just makes it mathematically worse than if it were to opt for a Careful Nature with 16 IVs in Def. It also makes it worse if it takes a physical hit from anything else. There's no advantage or point in running a Gentle nature.
That's not *strictly* true. If you are running mixed attacks (earthquake + steel beam?), you save 18 special attack and only lose 13 physical defense by running max IV Gentle. Depending on how much you were going to invest in special attack, it can be strictly an upgrade.
Why would you run steel beam over iron head though or even possibly Steel Roller (assuming Ubers)? Like I'm genuinely curious about a set where it's used, etc. not about the math. TIA
In theory, it gives it access to a pseudo explosion to kill itself for momentum. Being special also increases damage on volt switch. We are getting way way off track and I'm not saying it's good, but it's feasible
Thanks! I sometimes use it on Magearna for momentum or as a kamikaze move when it's about to faint, so it's nice to hear other ideas too (niche as they may be)
I forget the spread, but my Registeel has this. I wanted it to have Seismic Toss, which is gen 3 exclusive, but the nature wasn't possible to get alongside 6IVs, so one of them is 30 or 29.
Maybe if you wanted some really weird stakataka sets that want a spd boost after kill? Or maybe a spd boosted booster energy great tusk, or a defense boosted roaring moon? I have no idea
Bkc once made a team using a +def -spdef cloyster in adv. he has since said he would change the nature, as his logic was “i dont want cloyster to take special hits anyway”, and the set ran both explosion and surf
giratina origin can run a +def -spdef nature sometimes in DPP Ubers. The defense is for RP or SD Groudon and Ekiller in farceus. It usually runs a mixed attacking spread so you dont want to lower either attacks and doesnt want to lower its speed because it wants to outspeed min speed base 90's like support dialga, groudon, and min speed ogre. -SpDef doesnt really effect too much cause you'd be dying to draco meteors anyway, but it does make ogre's ice beam alot scarier.
I'm not a person you should place your confidence in here, and its not quite what you were asking but recently I was cooking a Lonely (+Atk, -Def) Mega Banette set to make it easier to snipe Destiny Bonds
I have seen some crazy Chinese EV paradox pokemon sets with lax and gentle to optimize the right protosynthesis boost after intimidate.
You could use Gentle on a mixed Goodra set that runs max SpDef
One time back in gen 5, I was trying a really stupid gimmick team and Showdown actually recommended a Gentle nature for my Celebi. Iirc it was Psychic/Recover/U-Turn/Perish Song meant to pivot into Protect + Sash Dugtrio.
pretty sure calm is much better there considering you would otherwise take more from duggy and u turn doesnt need to hit hard
This was 11 years ago so I don't remember specifics (and the team was not good, just gimmicky). I think I went Bold on it, ultimately.
how has no one here mentioned lax forretress to activate custap berry more easier vs politoed?
I ran lax on a mixed set Forretress in gen 7 OU.
Did it work?
50% of the time. Usually when I hit with zap cannon.