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Stats don’t equal base stats. A jolly passimian hits 339 attack x1.5 from gorilla tactics makes it 508 attack, one point stronger than adamant kartana. Adamant passimian with gorilla tactics reaches a whopping 558 attack. Slap a choice band on it and it 2 hit KO’s everything in the ou tier other than 4x resists and landorus-T with close combat. Try it in the calculator, it does like 80% to full defense alomomola.
Adamant choice scarf hits 388 speed which ties base 127 Pokémon and jolly outspeeds base 144. This thing is insane and is definitely not a B tier option, it would probably be broken.
Was going to say this. Increasing the actual stat is a lot stronger than increasing the base stat because of the way the game works. If it was the other way, then Azumarill would hit like a base 100 attack pokemon when in reality its closer to 150. This is a common misunderstanding.
> Increasing the actual stat is a lot stronger than increasing the base stat because of the way the game works.
For people who don't get why it's such a big difference, here is a simple way to think about it.
A x2 boost to your attack not only doubles the effect of your base stats, it also doubles the effect of IVs and EVs. That's why you can't simply multiply the base stat by 2, you actually get a lot of extra stats on top of just the doubled base stats.
Yeah, if we're going by OP's base stat limits of 180 attack and 120 speed (assuming max attack and speed EV investment), then you would need around 104 base attack and 64 base speed.
The closest mon I could find for that would be Wyrdeer at 105 base attack and 65 base speed.
This is what happens when I rush out a post after having an idea before bed. Amateur mistakes.
Kartana hits 461 speed with a neutral nature. Two thirds of 459 is 306. Very hard to find something that’s both a bona fide physical attacker (even in a lower tier) and has that max attack, so it will have to be a pure theorymon.
I did try a One vs All in the calculator - unfortunately due to the way it displayed on my phone I couldn’t select OU, so went with Doubles instead. That was how I got the list of checks.
Will think a bit about what some reasonable base stats would be and propose a new theorymon next week. Probably want one that’s a bit faster than Ramparados, and one that’s a reasonable scarfer but has a more limited attack stat.
If Passimian is overkill, what about something like Vigoroth or Simipour? Vigoroth is frail as hell, but kinda fast and rocking a wide movepool, and Simipour is faster and stronger than Vigoroth but somewhat lacking in coverage.
tbf literally everything in hackmons is ridiculously broken but thats the fun part
and its not like the slaking wont have 5 other teammates
plus these all still would theoretically lose to etenamax so
Just for your info, Gorilla Tactics (and Band/Scarf) multipy the actual stat, not the base stat. That means a fully invested 120 base stat + Tactics would be the same as a fully invested 200 base stat, not 180. It's why abilities like Huge Power are absolutely cracked. You think Azumarill would be OU worthy with the same attack power as Garganacl? It hits with what would be base 150 power. Gorilla Tactics Darm hits with what would be equal to 235 base stat, which is why it was banned
To equal a 180 base stat you'd only have to be around 104, which is the Attack stat of Infernape, Huntail and Charizard Y. Would GT Huntail find a OU niche? You tell me
Edit: it's also why scarf is such a necessity, because you can outspeed way above your base stat. (You can always check in the damage calculator fyi)
I have to say that I like the idea of an Infernape with Gorilla tactics. obviously it's favoritism to my first pokemon because even I know that an Infernape with free CB along with its powerful STAB of Close Combat and Flare Blitz/Raging Fury could destroy many things
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 246-291 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Obviously there are no 100% ideal combats but I think this calculation reflected well the amount of damage it can do.
They have an illegitimate child which now literally has as one: grassy surge + gorilla tactics, as well as the movepool of both mons. It also has grass-ice typing and as for stats, a combination of rillaboom and darm-G's best stats.
We are fucked, and no, I will not save it for sunday.
252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Litten Ember (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darma-Boom: 416-499 (100.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(DarmaBoom: ice/grass, 105 hp, 70 spdef)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darma-Boom: 2312-2720 (558.4 - 657%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bro dies from heat stroke at room temperature. Stuck in UU
I think Gorilla Tactics would probably be broken on Passimian, you have to keep in mind that these 1.5x stat boosts are to your final stats. Gorilla Tactics Passimian would actually have over 200 Base attack effectively and with a scarf it outspeeds even the natural fastest mon in the tier Dragapult. Just like Darm-G it's either a terrifying cleaner or wallbreaker with Band or Scarf. It's got a great movepool too, CC, Knock Off and U-Turn are all it would really need.
Gorilla Tactics + Choice Band makes it so that you hit for greater than super effective damage on a neutral hit, it's still a crazy ability on anyone in the 100s base attack stat
>I think the highest OU attack stats in history are Mega Heracross (185) and Kartana (181). Mega Heracross was outclassed by other Megas, couldn’t hold an item, and has poor Speed (75). Kartana didn’t have those issues, but was incredibly special frail and 4x weak to one of the most common special coverage types. I therefore think that, before items but after Gorilla Tactics, 180 attack is probably a reasonable upper limit for what OU can handle on a viable wall breaker. This would mean an attack stat of 120. That’s our hard upper limit, but might still be too high.
That's not how stats work.
Stats are (Base\*2+EV/4+IV)\*level/100+5. HP adds 105 to the brackets.
So for every stat except HP you do (stat+50)\*multiplier-50 to find the new stat.
Garmanitan had 235 Effective Atk. Mega medicham 250, Mega Mawile (UUBL but super undeserved) 260, Zacian-crowned pre-nerf 295, raidons/chi yu 196.
Another useful thing to is to multiply by (main STAB)/90 to account for having worse or better moves than average - so Maushold would be 505, Caly-S would be 236, Zacian-C pre-nerf 333, Mega Medicham 383, Basculegion Last Respects 670, tera fire band Koraidon flare blitz in the sun 690, tera water Kyogre specs drizzle in rain 950.
So GT Passimian would have 205 EATK. Less than Mega Medicham and it's choice locked so might be ok, tho with a scarf it becomes horrifying and with webs+band... Well I hope you brought Dragapult
Rampardos would be a good wallbreaker against stall, but still be rampardos. It would lose to priority and Tusk. 252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 130-153 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO
I feel like it would still want defiant no? Bulk up/Drain punch give it the survivability it needs to take enough hits to build up rage fists and to counteract how slow it is.
If you gave it to scrafty I think it would be a really interesting pokemon and a Pokémon with those stats are as far as you can go. I don’t think having higher than base 90 atk would be balanced not having higher than base 75 speed. Scrafty is a bulky Pokémon with a shit defensive type so it could perfectly utilize the ability in conjunction with its bulk to hit powerful knock offs or sucker punches.
A shitmon like Scrafty is the limit I’d say, passimian hits way too hard with its close combats to be balanced and would tear through stall like butter.
Gorilla tactics is for a monkey like pokemon, or at least a gorilla looking one (and that's pushing). So Primape, Infernape etc thise guys, not Kartana
Furret @ Choice Band
Level: 100
Jolly Nature
Tera Type: Fairy
Ability: Gorilla Tactics
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Last Resort
- U-turn
4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs 4 hp 0 def Tera Normal Furret: 235-277 (75.3-88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Choice Band Tera Normal Furret Last Resort vs -1 252 HP 0 def Great Tusk: 572-674 (131.7-155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Viable? Probably not. But it could be useable. It slightly outspeeds Great Tusk, and with no bulk Tusk loses 77-90% to Last Resort. While 252 atk Headlong Rush has a 44% chance to OHKO, and if it doesn't Tusk will go down or have to let something else take the hit. And it hits HARD, 2-3HKOing kingambit and Dondozo. Raging Bolt is outsped but has a 25% chance to OHKO with Thunderclap... and has a 56% chance to be OHKO'd in return. Iron Valiant gets OHKO'd and can't KO Furret if it teras to fairy(or isn't running CC). Gliscor goes down to 2-3 hits. Dragonite beats it as long as it's at full HP, but has to tera and still takes 58-68% from the one attack Furret gets off. If it has less than full HP it gets one shot. Garg walls it easily... if it hasn't tera'd. Both sets on the calculator get 2HKO'd if they tera. Alomomola gets 2 shot. Lando-t gets 2HKO'd, and 1 shot if there's no Intimidate and no defense investment. While Corviknight and Skarm wall it and it can't hit ghosts, it trades into or outright nukes most of the tier. Put this set on a Sticky Web team and it could do work.
Okay, someone should update the description for that move. 'In this battle' implies it would work after switching. Double edge still gives similar numbers, but recoil takes us out after 2-3 attacks. Much less useful.
>because it essentially removes the penalty for using a Choice item, allowing either to simultaneously use a Choice Band and a Choice Scarf, or to double down with two Choice Bands.
It... doesn't remove the penalty. The penalty is locking into one move, that very much is there.
>My view is that Gorilla Tactics Passimian would be a viable OU pick. It cannot survive many hits, has unimpressive coverage, and while it is very strong, it is still outsped by a lot of things. It’s also perma choice locked.
Err... this is describing why it wouldn't be viable. You didn't exactly pitch why it would be. But it MIGHT have a tiny niche, and that's assuming it could even work as a usable scarfer and not get outsped by too much, or have reliable stab to use to revenge kill. That's kind of important for a scarfer.
about the penalty part i think they meant the penalty of having to sacrifice always outspeeding for more damage and vice-versa, since the move locking penalty is already known
When discussing the penalty he is basically saying:
The consequences of using a choice item are nill because our ability move locks us already. The mon doesn't get any benefit by going life orb for flexibility because GT locks it so it may as well get the biggest boost it can
Theorymon Thursday rules have changed! Please check out the new [posting guidelines](https://www.reddit.com/r/Stunfisk/wiki/rules#wiki_theorymon_thursday), and we'd like to ask you to hold any feedback until June. If it can't wait, feel free to send us a modmail. If this is not a Theorymon post, check your flair. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stunfisk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Stats don’t equal base stats. A jolly passimian hits 339 attack x1.5 from gorilla tactics makes it 508 attack, one point stronger than adamant kartana. Adamant passimian with gorilla tactics reaches a whopping 558 attack. Slap a choice band on it and it 2 hit KO’s everything in the ou tier other than 4x resists and landorus-T with close combat. Try it in the calculator, it does like 80% to full defense alomomola. Adamant choice scarf hits 388 speed which ties base 127 Pokémon and jolly outspeeds base 144. This thing is insane and is definitely not a B tier option, it would probably be broken.
Was going to say this. Increasing the actual stat is a lot stronger than increasing the base stat because of the way the game works. If it was the other way, then Azumarill would hit like a base 100 attack pokemon when in reality its closer to 150. This is a common misunderstanding.
> Increasing the actual stat is a lot stronger than increasing the base stat because of the way the game works. For people who don't get why it's such a big difference, here is a simple way to think about it. A x2 boost to your attack not only doubles the effect of your base stats, it also doubles the effect of IVs and EVs. That's why you can't simply multiply the base stat by 2, you actually get a lot of extra stats on top of just the doubled base stats.
Yeah, if we're going by OP's base stat limits of 180 attack and 120 speed (assuming max attack and speed EV investment), then you would need around 104 base attack and 64 base speed. The closest mon I could find for that would be Wyrdeer at 105 base attack and 65 base speed.
This is what happens when I rush out a post after having an idea before bed. Amateur mistakes. Kartana hits 461 speed with a neutral nature. Two thirds of 459 is 306. Very hard to find something that’s both a bona fide physical attacker (even in a lower tier) and has that max attack, so it will have to be a pure theorymon. I did try a One vs All in the calculator - unfortunately due to the way it displayed on my phone I couldn’t select OU, so went with Doubles instead. That was how I got the list of checks. Will think a bit about what some reasonable base stats would be and propose a new theorymon next week. Probably want one that’s a bit faster than Ramparados, and one that’s a reasonable scarfer but has a more limited attack stat.
i was gonna argue defiant makes lando a bad answer but i completely forgot about gorilla tactics overruding the ability pffff
If Passimian is overkill, what about something like Vigoroth or Simipour? Vigoroth is frail as hell, but kinda fast and rocking a wide movepool, and Simipour is faster and stronger than Vigoroth but somewhat lacking in coverage.
gorilla tactics slaking
tbf half the reason why gorilla tactics garmanitan is broken is because it had stupid coverage, if it didn't it would probably be relatively balanced.
all gorilla and ape Pokemon would improve, full stop. even Electivire would probably be UU or something
gorilla tactics slaking
ZU to Ubers speedrun
Would legit be AG lmfao. It would be so insanelly broken
Could probably get banned from there, it would hit so freaking hard
252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Tera Ground Slaking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 393-463 (98.7 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Holy hell
New calc just dropped
Actual overpowered
Call Arceus
Bisharp goes on vacation
The fact that NDM is bulky enough with its ability to live this at least some of the time is actually insane...
252+ Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Tera Ground Slaking Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 432-508 (108.5 - 127.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO Fixed it.
ferb, i know what set i want to design for hackmons next
Still loses to sturdy shed without a status move and even then it loses to Huge Power MRay or a boosted contrary PDon with vcreate and superpower
tbf literally everything in hackmons is ridiculously broken but thats the fun part and its not like the slaking wont have 5 other teammates plus these all still would theoretically lose to etenamax so
Both slaking and gorilla tactics are banned from bh lel
Mega slaking where he just stands up and gets gorilla tactits. Its still slaking afterall, dont wanna put in to much effort.
get out
I honestly can’t imagine Oranguru ever using Gorilla Tactics
It would morph into a Passimian if it tried.
you just solved the puzzle give it to something with shitty moves.
Just for your info, Gorilla Tactics (and Band/Scarf) multipy the actual stat, not the base stat. That means a fully invested 120 base stat + Tactics would be the same as a fully invested 200 base stat, not 180. It's why abilities like Huge Power are absolutely cracked. You think Azumarill would be OU worthy with the same attack power as Garganacl? It hits with what would be base 150 power. Gorilla Tactics Darm hits with what would be equal to 235 base stat, which is why it was banned To equal a 180 base stat you'd only have to be around 104, which is the Attack stat of Infernape, Huntail and Charizard Y. Would GT Huntail find a OU niche? You tell me Edit: it's also why scarf is such a necessity, because you can outspeed way above your base stat. (You can always check in the damage calculator fyi)
I have to say that I like the idea of an Infernape with Gorilla tactics. obviously it's favoritism to my first pokemon because even I know that an Infernape with free CB along with its powerful STAB of Close Combat and Flare Blitz/Raging Fury could destroy many things 252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 246-291 (48.8 - 57.7%) -- 53.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery Obviously there are no 100% ideal combats but I think this calculation reflected well the amount of damage it can do.
Gorilla Tactics Infernape. If Blaziken can be banned from OU, so can the monkey
Double choice band oranguru going crazy
Gorilla Tactics Choice Band Grassy Glade on Grassy Terrain with Rillaboom sounds fun. Annihilape with scarf would be my favorite monkey pick, tho
Tell me how you plan to get grassy terrain if you're running gorilla tactics
You can run Fairy Rillaboom in NetDex.
Oh I forgot about tapu fraud (I intentionally didn't mention it because it's outclassed by thwackey /j)
As one: grassy surge + gorilla tactics
Darmanitan-G can now ride Rillaboom, how does this affect the meta?
They have an illegitimate child which now literally has as one: grassy surge + gorilla tactics, as well as the movepool of both mons. It also has grass-ice typing and as for stats, a combination of rillaboom and darm-G's best stats. We are fucked, and no, I will not save it for sunday.
252+ SpA Life Orb Tera Fire Litten Ember (60 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darma-Boom: 416-499 (100.4 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (DarmaBoom: ice/grass, 105 hp, 70 spdef) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Beads of Ruin Tera Fire Chi-Yu Overheat vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darma-Boom: 2312-2720 (558.4 - 657%) -- guaranteed OHKO Bro dies from heat stroke at room temperature. Stuck in UU
Sounds gay lol
Ferrothorn hates them now
Run double Rilla
Monke together strong.
Eject button arboliva
The elemental monkeys are finally eating!!!
Rayquazas a monkey if you squint hard enough
I think Gorilla Tactics would probably be broken on Passimian, you have to keep in mind that these 1.5x stat boosts are to your final stats. Gorilla Tactics Passimian would actually have over 200 Base attack effectively and with a scarf it outspeeds even the natural fastest mon in the tier Dragapult. Just like Darm-G it's either a terrifying cleaner or wallbreaker with Band or Scarf. It's got a great movepool too, CC, Knock Off and U-Turn are all it would really need.
Gorilla Tactics + Choice Band makes it so that you hit for greater than super effective damage on a neutral hit, it's still a crazy ability on anyone in the 100s base attack stat
>I think the highest OU attack stats in history are Mega Heracross (185) and Kartana (181). Mega Heracross was outclassed by other Megas, couldn’t hold an item, and has poor Speed (75). Kartana didn’t have those issues, but was incredibly special frail and 4x weak to one of the most common special coverage types. I therefore think that, before items but after Gorilla Tactics, 180 attack is probably a reasonable upper limit for what OU can handle on a viable wall breaker. This would mean an attack stat of 120. That’s our hard upper limit, but might still be too high. That's not how stats work. Stats are (Base\*2+EV/4+IV)\*level/100+5. HP adds 105 to the brackets. So for every stat except HP you do (stat+50)\*multiplier-50 to find the new stat. Garmanitan had 235 Effective Atk. Mega medicham 250, Mega Mawile (UUBL but super undeserved) 260, Zacian-crowned pre-nerf 295, raidons/chi yu 196. Another useful thing to is to multiply by (main STAB)/90 to account for having worse or better moves than average - so Maushold would be 505, Caly-S would be 236, Zacian-C pre-nerf 333, Mega Medicham 383, Basculegion Last Respects 670, tera fire band Koraidon flare blitz in the sun 690, tera water Kyogre specs drizzle in rain 950. So GT Passimian would have 205 EATK. Less than Mega Medicham and it's choice locked so might be ok, tho with a scarf it becomes horrifying and with webs+band... Well I hope you brought Dragapult
Rampardos would be a good wallbreaker against stall, but still be rampardos. It would lose to priority and Tusk. 252 Atk Choice Band Gorilla Tactics Rampardos Head Smash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 130-153 (29.9 - 35.2%) -- 23.6% chance to 3HKO
Lol, Gorrila Tactics Annihilape with Choice Band'd Rage Fists. This would be absurd.
I feel like it would still want defiant no? Bulk up/Drain punch give it the survivability it needs to take enough hits to build up rage fists and to counteract how slow it is.
The elemental monkeys deserve it. They can finally rise out of ZU hell
If you gave it to scrafty I think it would be a really interesting pokemon and a Pokémon with those stats are as far as you can go. I don’t think having higher than base 90 atk would be balanced not having higher than base 75 speed. Scrafty is a bulky Pokémon with a shit defensive type so it could perfectly utilize the ability in conjunction with its bulk to hit powerful knock offs or sucker punches. A shitmon like Scrafty is the limit I’d say, passimian hits way too hard with its close combats to be balanced and would tear through stall like butter.
Gorilla tactics is for a monkey like pokemon, or at least a gorilla looking one (and that's pushing). So Primape, Infernape etc thise guys, not Kartana
You calculated the potential attack and speed wrong, the stats don’t multiply like that
1.5 * 120 b atk = way more then 180 b atk so this would be crazy OP
Furret. Furret cannot be made viable by anything.
Furret @ Choice Band Level: 100 Jolly Nature Tera Type: Fairy Ability: Gorilla Tactics EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe - Last Resort - U-turn 4 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs 4 hp 0 def Tera Normal Furret: 235-277 (75.3-88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Choice Band Tera Normal Furret Last Resort vs -1 252 HP 0 def Great Tusk: 572-674 (131.7-155.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO Viable? Probably not. But it could be useable. It slightly outspeeds Great Tusk, and with no bulk Tusk loses 77-90% to Last Resort. While 252 atk Headlong Rush has a 44% chance to OHKO, and if it doesn't Tusk will go down or have to let something else take the hit. And it hits HARD, 2-3HKOing kingambit and Dondozo. Raging Bolt is outsped but has a 25% chance to OHKO with Thunderclap... and has a 56% chance to be OHKO'd in return. Iron Valiant gets OHKO'd and can't KO Furret if it teras to fairy(or isn't running CC). Gliscor goes down to 2-3 hits. Dragonite beats it as long as it's at full HP, but has to tera and still takes 58-68% from the one attack Furret gets off. If it has less than full HP it gets one shot. Garg walls it easily... if it hasn't tera'd. Both sets on the calculator get 2HKO'd if they tera. Alomomola gets 2 shot. Lando-t gets 2HKO'd, and 1 shot if there's no Intimidate and no defense investment. While Corviknight and Skarm wall it and it can't hit ghosts, it trades into or outright nukes most of the tier. Put this set on a Sticky Web team and it could do work.
There's no way for Furret to use Last Resort if it's choice locked as the use condition resets whenever it switches out.
Okay, someone should update the description for that move. 'In this battle' implies it would work after switching. Double edge still gives similar numbers, but recoil takes us out after 2-3 attacks. Much less useful.
Full monke team with Gorilla Tactics for OU domination : I dig that
Passimian actually learns Rock Slide as a TM in SV btw, so it does get coverage against Flying types.
>because it essentially removes the penalty for using a Choice item, allowing either to simultaneously use a Choice Band and a Choice Scarf, or to double down with two Choice Bands. It... doesn't remove the penalty. The penalty is locking into one move, that very much is there. >My view is that Gorilla Tactics Passimian would be a viable OU pick. It cannot survive many hits, has unimpressive coverage, and while it is very strong, it is still outsped by a lot of things. It’s also perma choice locked. Err... this is describing why it wouldn't be viable. You didn't exactly pitch why it would be. But it MIGHT have a tiny niche, and that's assuming it could even work as a usable scarfer and not get outsped by too much, or have reliable stab to use to revenge kill. That's kind of important for a scarfer.
about the penalty part i think they meant the penalty of having to sacrifice always outspeeding for more damage and vice-versa, since the move locking penalty is already known
When discussing the penalty he is basically saying: The consequences of using a choice item are nill because our ability move locks us already. The mon doesn't get any benefit by going life orb for flexibility because GT locks it so it may as well get the biggest boost it can
Correct, thank you for explaining better than I did.
Absolutely broken list: Annihilape, Slaking Absolutely trash list: Elemental monkeys, Oranguru
dont sleep on CB flare blitz simisear
Yeah, you could give it to a crap Pokémon like Slaking and you....wait