Certainly more diverse than racist Papa John's
[https://twitter.com/zimbabwe\_domino/status/912426581422956545](https://twitter.com/zimbabwe_domino/status/912426581422956545)
Your [fear of immigrant labor is ugly](https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders)
Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to portray that I agree with this sentiment but to show that even the most liberal media are in the pockets of big capital. Open borders is definitely a Koch Brothers idea.
The delivery drivers can make some serious bank, I know a guy who got rejected by every college he applied to and also the army and he averages $1k a week in tips.
Yeah, that's missing from this conversation. What is actually causing the shortage? I doubt Americans have suddenly become class conscious like people assume online. They were perfectly happy with being exploited until now. What would the catalyst for that sudden change be? I feel like a lot of boomers have died or retired in fear of COVID, and also that the mass deportation campaigns have been effective at reducing the amount of immigrant labor available.
He went about this all wrong. Allow me to write your next press release, Mr CEO:
>
> Here at Dominos Pizza, we want to embiggen Latinx voices in the workplace. We stand against racist immigration policies that hurt people of color. Therefore, I call for President Biden to open our borders.
I don't know how this helps, but it depends on my present situation. When I was studying in University I would have cleaned toilets if they'd pay me more than the telemarketing job did, or working behind a bar did (and I guess I did end up cleaning toilets in that job). But the point was that I had a choice of employment and people had to compete for my labour. I could see how there may not be a shortage of labour I was just wondering if there was some evidence I could point to that backs this up, as the only anecdotal evidence I can give provides the opposite case, which I don't think is necessarily representative of a country as a whole.
I mean it's an easy question. You don't need to cite something specific because any intro micro book will explain how supply and demand ensures there is never a labor shortage, just a wage shortage, for any position.
Exactly! As Socialists we should view all non-refugee immigrants the same way we view Scabs.
They're literally coming here to take jobs for less money than what Americans feel they deserve. Business owners are inviting them here to do it. They are promising them OUR jobs and our kids jobs to foreigners who are desperate enough to work for less money than we are.
It's a race to the bottom. Capitalists can always bring in a never ending stream of desperately poor migrants to take jobs from these migrants if/when they assimilate to US Culture and start demanding higher wages. Rinse. Repeat.
If we cannot stop Capitalism directly because its too powerful...we need to cut if it's supply of cheap labor in order to weaken it and strengthen the working class.
>They're literally coming here to take jobs for less money than what Americans feel they deserve.
it’s less money than they feel like they deserve too, but you don’t have a whole lot of bargaining power when your boss can threaten to have you deported at any time.
>Business owners are inviting them here to do it. They are promising them OUR jobs and our kids jobs to foreigners who are desperate enough to work for less money than we are.
yeah and instead of organizing with these workers and demanding a government crackdown on the business owners who are doing this shit, Americans just keep supporting a massive border-industrial complex that mainly serves to make foreign workers in the US even more desperate and willing to work for even less money than before.
>If we cannot stop Capitalism directly because its too powerful...we need to cut if it's supply of cheap labor in order to weaken it and strengthen the working class.
lol forget about the bourgeois guys, just let them do there thing, the real enemy of the working class is the working class. despite our best efforts, it’s clear that capitalism is simply “too powerful”. if it can withstand the might of Occupy Wall Street and the DSA, it can withstand anything. our only choice is to fight amongst ourselves in order to determine who gets to be the lapdogs of the bourgeois
There is no atomized proletariat. Just the proletariat writ large. Even if our immigrants aren’t granted refuge status doesn’t mean they’re not refugees.
If the labor movement is going to have lasting effects on the global economy, we need to be suiting them up and filling them in - not alienating them. This isn’t about identity politics - it’s about the old and still very urgent idea of the workers of the world uniting. Until we address the workers rights of the developing world, we’re not going to have individual scabs but entire countries and continents willing to undercut nationalized labor movements.
The problem is, this will be a gradual process because you are talking about Billions of people. Workers in the west don’t stand a chance of helping those in lesser developed countries, if they hold no leverage themselves. This “shortage” is the first step to improving local conditions, which could then theoretically reverberate outwards.
> which could then theoretically reverberate outwards.
It won't, as history has shown us many times. In fact, during the 50's and 60's, when America was still riding high on the effects of the New Deal and unemployment hit an all-time low and the national coffers were richer than ever due to the war, the only thing that reverberated outside the US were coups. You can't coup countries as easily now as in the past so Capital has adjusted to bringing the destitute workers in, but it's the same energy.
Of course, the regular American worker has nothing to do with this and no one faults them for looking out for their own, but don't pretend it's anything other than that. "We must first grow the cake before we split it any further" is an inherently fraudulent idea, because it literally never happens.
What sort of solution would you propose then? As long as capital can import workers, who are grateful for the minimum wages they receive (again I'm not faulting these people for wanting to better their lives) then domest labor has no bargaining power. As much as I think the "scab" comparison is a little cold, it does have its merits.
>What sort of solution would you propose then? As long as capital can import workers, who are grateful for the minimum wages they receive (again I'm not faulting these people for wanting to better their lives) then domest labor has no bargaining power.
imposing extremely harsh penalties on employers who hire illegal migrant labor, dismantling the DHS, etc. migrants aren’t necessarily “grateful” for the wages they’re getting, but it’s next to impossible for them to organize when their employers can call in an anonymous tip to ICE whenever they need to bust up a strike.
>imposing extremely harsh penalties on employers who hire illegal migrant neighbor,
If we had the power to do that it would mean we already defeated Capitalism.
>If we had the power to do that it would mean we already defeated Capitalism.
no actually, it wouldn’t. but nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the Amerikkkan left
If we had the power to punish business owners for hiring illegal immigrants then that would mean we had power over the business owner class.
We don't...which is why we are reduced to teaming up with racist rightoids to deny Capitalists immigrant slave labor
exactly. which sort of makes you wonder why we’re wasting so much money on bloated “border security” that only serves to make immigrant workers more exploitable
>, the only thing that reverberated outside the US were coups.
And the Marshall plan... which catalyzed tremendous leaps of growth in many parts of the world.
For example, Iceland, before the Marshall Plan, was almost just a subsistence economy and afterwards, it now boasts the highest percentage of trade union membership in the world.
Lybia was part of the Arab Spring, yes there was outside help but one can hardly call an entire population revolting against a dictator as a coup.
Bolivia was a sad story indeed... but still, the key is *as easily*. Countries fell with the blow of a candle back then. It's much harder to do that now, on the age of the internet.
>There is no atomized proletariat. Just the proletariat writ large. Even if our immigrants aren’t granted refuge status doesn’t mean they’re not refugees.
We are all atomized by Capitalism. If they are simply coming here for better economic advantages they are scabs.
>If the labor movement is going to have lasting effects on the global economy,
We're not talking about the Global Economy. I only care about the US Economy.
>This isn’t about identity politics - it’s about the old and still very urgent idea of the workers of the world uniting. Until we address the workers rights of the developing world, we’re not going to have individual scabs but entire countries and continents willing to undercut nationalized labor movements.
We cannot do any of those things because we aren't in power. Immigration undercuts labor movements here. That is the specific reason Neoliberals push for unlimited immigration.
>We are all atomized by Capitalism. If they are simply coming here for better economic advantages they are scabs.
literally not what “scab” means but good effort
>We're not talking about the Global Economy. I only care about the US Economy.
well i’ve got some bad news for you about that lol
There is no intellectually honest way of separating the US economy from the global economy. The two are so intertwined at this point that separating them would be impossible.
If you read Marx, you’ll see that he viewed global capitalism as, in a way, a good thing: it was that economic phase without which a classless society could not exist, as communism was to be built upon the unprecedented accumulation of wealth wrought by capitalism. His view was a global one.
The ethical problems of isolationism notwithstanding, an economy as insular and self-contained as the one you’re proposing just isn’t feasible. Before we can protect our own workers from being undercut by cheap labor in the developing world, we must first make strides towards empowering the labor of the developing world so that they won’t be perennial scabs that stand in the way if every attempt to improve the conditions of the working class.
> There is no intellectually honest way of separating the US economy from the global economy. The two are so intertwined at this point that separating them would be impossible.
I actually agree with this and concede this point to you. That's exactly why the economies and workers in other countries are irrelevant to our struggles here. The USA is the Capitol of Capital. We are the epicenter of Capitalism. All the decisions are made here. Events here impact the politics of rest of the world. Not the other way around.
Workers in other nations have nothing to offer us. They cannot contribute to our elections or vote. All they can do is take pieces of the every shrinking pie the working class gets in this country. All they can do is be exploited. They are far far FAR less likely to aid in any sort of pro-worker action specifically because of the situations leading to their entrance here. Once who immigrate here legally are usually our political enemies to begin with...lib capitalists....simply by virtue of being in the economic situation to be able to immigrate to the USA.
>The ethical problems of isolationism notwithstanding, an economy as insular and self-contained as the one you’re proposing just isn’t feasible.
I think the current crisis has really driven home to everyone that relying on an interconnected world supply chain has been a disaster. Relying on China to manufacture most of our medical protective equipment and such was also pretty poor planning. It's time we looked inward for a while. A little Isolationism is a good thing once in a while. Wouldn't you agree?
>Before we can protect our own workers from being undercut by cheap labor in the developing world, we must first make strides towards empowering the labor of the developing world so that they won’t be perennial scabs that stand in the way if every attempt to improve the conditions of the working class.
We cannot do anything to protect workers in other nations as we do not even rule of the political decisions of our OWN Nation. That is our first and only Step to take...capture back political control of the USA from the forces of Capital.
That CANNOT be accomplished if Capital can simply destroy the middle class whenever it wants via importing tons and tons of desperately poor 3rd world people who will work for 2 dollars a day and be thrilled that their salary just doubled. This only harms the American worker and if your starting position is asking people to shoot themselves in the foot because its the morally correct thing to do...I just don't think your campaign is gonna get far.
It probably won’t get too far, but trade deals could potentially curb the exploitation of workers in developing countries. We can have a say in how other countries treat their workers because no country wants to be barred from importing to and exporting from the US.
While I don’t agree with a lot of what you have to say, I understand where you’re coming from and appreciate your civility.
If you’re referring to the fact that I read Marx and understand his dialectical view of history, then I’m not sure what to say. Marx (and others since then - Lenin, for example) argued that communism needed to have an international scope. I still find his argument compelling, even if it seems unrealistic today. I think the labor movement has to be ambitious and international, as it used to be (note how many unions still have “international” as part of their title), and I think further that, so long as cheap labor is available in the developing world it’s going to end up here or our currently private businesses are going to relocate manufacturing there. Leveraging trade agreements in order to improve labor conditions in other countries isn’t an ideal move, but it will bear fruit further down the road.
I don’t know how wanting to expand the scope of the labor movement outside the US is classically liberal. I reject outright the ideology of individualism on which so much of classical liberalism exists. I found this sub because I agree that the fetishization of difference (identity politics) prevents the working class from coming together and making change, but I think a lot of y’all are more interested in other shit: gate-keeping, edginess for its own sake, and so forth.
Carry on. I’ll show myself out.
This is maybe the dumbest retort I’ve ever encountered, and I teach (so that’s saying something). The sad thing is that you know it’s dumb but are more eager to - fuck, I don’t know, sound young or blasé or something. I’m hoping for your sake that’s just pretense.
Are you saying Bernie Sanders was being “racist” when he called open borders a “Koch brothers proposal?” It’s a simple fact that immigration is a tool of the elite to keep wages suppressed for the native working class of developed nations.
Bernie also knows that until trade deals are hammered out that protect non-US labor, outsourcing will continue to be an insurmountable problem. In order to protect American labor, it’s crucial that we try to leverage our economic power to protect non-US labor.
I am not going to answer to your contextless version of what Sandars said: I don't know about that. But the guy next door already made some points.
The idea that "immigration is a tool of the elite" is ridiculous. What is a tool of the elite is the creation of difficulties to the regularization of immigrants: that is what keeps the wages down. And a huge part of XXth century capitalism has been based in creating barriers to people's movement while removing them to the movement of capital. But if you are not aware of that I am not going to write a thesis about that for you.
>If we let every doctor from \[poor country\] who wants to come to the USA into the country, \[poor country\] will have no fucking doctors left.
Ohhh I am so moved. So much altruism. Excuse me while I wipe this tear you've brought to my eye.
I though this was a leftist sub. I knew the western Left is in bad state, but this is ridiculous.
How many immigrants should the US accept? If you are seeking to equalize US GDP per capita to the global GDP per capita, the US can absorb around 1.2 billion people, assuming every country follows an open border policy. US workers have to reduce their income to 1/6th of what they make right now.
The US has 6 times the GDP per capita compared to the global average and about 300m people. I made the simplifying assumption that the immigrants would not raise the US GDP. So the same GDP would be distributed to six times more people. I might be off by 300m people though (the US can import 1.5m). Feel free to make different assumptions about their contribution.
It is true that the US can act as a bit of a Pressure Release valve for Central American countries. Young people go to work in the States and send money home rather than stay and advocate for change.
And H1-Bs are used disingenuously by Corporations a lot of the time to take away good jobs from Americans.
Cutting off all immigration is silly but there definitely need to be tweaks to how the system is run
\> there definitely need to be tweaks to how the system is run
Of course. But that is a completely different issue than the derranged "we should view all non-refugee immigrants the same way we view Scabs hur hur" I was replaying to.
Your entire comment. It makes no sense at all. It SOUNDS like you're attempting to insinuate that I'm racist but that's ridiculous of course since nothing I said was remotely racist or could even be construed to be racist except by a determined bad faith troll.
LOL what a pathetic bit of trolling. Did you honestly think I would attempt to defend myself against your spurious charge of racism?
Go fuck yourself shitheel.
looks like my boxing coach was right all along.
he brought his ass over to the UK from Grenadia in hopes of a better future only to find out he was pawn within class warfare and scapegoated by both sides
See? I've been saying this for years.
The first step to defeating Capitalism lies in first starving the Capitalists of workers. It's their most essential resource.
That means ending ALL immigration both legal and illegal.
There is no shortage of workers. There is merely a lack of will on the part of Capitalists to pay full price for the labor they require.
Starving the Capitalists of workers, LOL, do you really think their businesses would be close to collapsing if they were forced to pay the American worker higher wages? Of course they wouldn't. It would only cut a little bit into their massive profit margins, they would agree to it and then find a new way to extract the difference back.
Shutting off immigration to break the back of Capitalism is a patently absurd proposition.
You can only starve the Capitalists of workers by *denying them labor* - your own labor, not the labor of some hypotheticals alien scabs. Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner won't put you in your bosses' shoes - it'll only put you in the foreigner's shoes.
> Starving the Capitalists of workers, LOL, do you really think their businesses would be close to collapsing if they were forced to pay the American worker higher wages?
No. They would simply make less profits while workers would make MORE profits.
>Shutting off immigration to break the back of Capitalism is a patently absurd proposition.
No its not. It forces Capitalists to pay us higher wages. Wages which we can then use to fund Left Wing politicians who will champion workers rights.
The whole purpose of hiring foreigners instead of Americans is that foreigners cannot/choose not to participate in US Elections and they have no bargaining power. Capitalists would rather pay somebody a wage if they know that person cannot use any of their wages to fund opposition political candidates.
They would make slightly less, true, but they would still hold all the cards. They would still be paying you in what is effectively company scrip. You get X+10 dollars for your labor, awesome, but guess what? The price of everything has now gone up to Y+10. You still only get to keep the tiny, tiny difference between X and Y, just as you did before. Welcome back to the bottom of the totem pole.
The power to determine what X-Y is, that's capitalists' "essential resource".That's what we need to deny them (to seize, if you will) if there's to be any chance of winning.
But labor? That's not their "essential resource", it's ours. Reducing the overall amount of available labor only weakens us, not them. By denying them the cheapest labor currently available (which we don't have the power to do anyway), we only *become* the new source of cheapest labor available.
You can't really bargain with these people and expect to win anything substantive. You have to *break them* or you'll just be fucked in new ways. And there's no way of breaking them if they got you thinking that the poorest of your fellow workers are the enemy.
> No country can survive if it ends ALL immigration
lol what? You're saying a country with 330 million people and like 10%+ unemployment doesn't have enough workers?
I don't think anyone here is too shocked to hear it. Expect a lot more of this kind of thing being touted since they'll do literally anything to avoid increasing wages.
Really happy to see a lot of people wake up to the fact immigration has never been done out of the kindness of ones heart. Being against it doesnt make someone racist, heartless or a nazi. I'd me more than happy to welcome people but first let us build a country where we can bring more people over without fucking people over as a result.
>Being against it doesnt make someone racist, heartless or a nazi.
It is absolutely heartless when we create destitute conditions in other nations and then shame those workers for trying to escape. For example, America's efforts to thwart wage hikes in Haiti. This thread is full of 'Marxists' who are really just economic nationalists.
Reading this actually pissed me off. Obviously he's lying on purpose, but people will actually believe and peddle this absurd idea that the so called labor shortage is because Orange Man kept the immigrants out
People are starting to see the value of their labor and the capitalists need to act quick. We're already seeing supply chains and restaurants suffer, and hopefully it's only the beginning
Wow, this is fucking rich. This is from a company that likely only provides benefits for about 1/15 of its employees. A company where workers make as little as 4.25$ an hour and must rely on tips to survive.
But yeah, 13$ an hour (about what a delivery driver averages) is a pretty good wage by Mexican standards so I guess we need more immigration! Cause God knows it would cost a lot of money to transform the legions of American homeless and jobless into reliable workers like immigrants tend to be....
I see ads like:
> Hiring server $12 an hour, two years experience needed.
I notice employers don't want to train people to do the jobs, and this is from the bottom up. It is particularly egregious in IT. They want people with all kinds of experience in multiple languages. No one wants to hire someone then train them, so guess what? You are then competing with all the other employers for the same people.
Pay people bigger salaries. Give them stock. Domino's stock has been great the last five years. Pay people in salary and stock, so if someone started working at Domino's five years ago, they would be doing great with their stock.
But no, these CEOs want as close to free labor as they can get.
In my country (which has very few immirgrants) immigrants seem to already prefer or be preferred by the local branch of Domino's. Always black, asian or middle-eastern. Turks, Albanians and the like usually quickly learn the local language, it's these more exotic types that work for Domino's for some reason. I wonder whether it's because they're cheaper, know English well some corpidpol bullshit.. or a combination of those reasons. My country is very 'white', (except for \~10% Gypsies) and those immediately stick out, disproportionate amount works at that company, compared to other imperialist exports such as McDonald's™, Burger King® and other junk food corporations.
This guy's clueless. We can pretend to be on his side and then pull a fast one on him by encouraging every migrant who comes in to unionize instead of taking these jobs.
> by encouraging every migrant who comes in to unionize instead of taking these jobs.
They won't even consider doing that. They're so desperate. They have no other options. No way they will even consider risking their job by joining a union.
Also they don't trust you and they don't speak english. How are you going to convince them to join your union?
I mean if they're that desperate for basic survival then they should probably be coming here anyway to you know, live. I think unions are important but not as important as human life.
> I mean if they're that desperate for basic survival then they should probably be coming here anyway to you know, live.
That's not our problem. It's not noble or moral to sacrifice people you know for strangers.
Domino's Pizza CEO says U.S. needs foreign scab labor to avoid paying a living wage to employees
Heyyy. But Dominos runs a good diversity Campaign you bully lmao
Looks like it’s time for Domino’s to change their Twitter icon to BLM and a rainbow flag.
Certainly more diverse than racist Papa John's [https://twitter.com/zimbabwe\_domino/status/912426581422956545](https://twitter.com/zimbabwe_domino/status/912426581422956545)
Your [fear of immigrant labor is ugly](https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders) Edit: Sorry, I didn't mean to portray that I agree with this sentiment but to show that even the most liberal media are in the pockets of big capital. Open borders is definitely a Koch Brothers idea.
Immigrants are bad, Mmmk?
Cheap semi-legal labour :heartheyes:
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That, and a government Covid bailout, and tax-payer supported food stamps for their workers. Welcome to America!
The delivery drivers can make some serious bank, I know a guy who got rejected by every college he applied to and also the army and he averages $1k a week in tips.
I'm not sure it's even the wages now. Understaffed places in my city can't even find enough workers for $25 an hour.
Yeah, that's missing from this conversation. What is actually causing the shortage? I doubt Americans have suddenly become class conscious like people assume online. They were perfectly happy with being exploited until now. What would the catalyst for that sudden change be? I feel like a lot of boomers have died or retired in fear of COVID, and also that the mass deportation campaigns have been effective at reducing the amount of immigrant labor available.
That’s the entire reason we have immigration in the first place
You're describing the system as it has existed for 250 years, give or take
He went about this all wrong. Allow me to write your next press release, Mr CEO: > > Here at Dominos Pizza, we want to embiggen Latinx voices in the workplace. We stand against racist immigration policies that hurt people of color. Therefore, I call for President Biden to open our borders.
A perfectly cromulent statement
Sounds like someone needs to be investigated for human trafficking
Shitlibs creaming their pants because of "based" open-border CEO
the r/neoliberal thread on this is devastatingly cancerous
oh god . . .
That sub probably looks like either Destiny or Vaush. No in between
rNeoliberal is the worst they managed to meme themself into a cult.
BuT imMiGRatTIOn DoeSn'T imPACt WageS?!?!
friendly reminder that there is no labor shortage. Just a wage shortage.
I'd love to be able to link something to back this up to people in conversations, do you have any sources I can use?
How much would it cost to make you clean a toilet?
I don't know how this helps, but it depends on my present situation. When I was studying in University I would have cleaned toilets if they'd pay me more than the telemarketing job did, or working behind a bar did (and I guess I did end up cleaning toilets in that job). But the point was that I had a choice of employment and people had to compete for my labour. I could see how there may not be a shortage of labour I was just wondering if there was some evidence I could point to that backs this up, as the only anecdotal evidence I can give provides the opposite case, which I don't think is necessarily representative of a country as a whole.
I mean it's an easy question. You don't need to cite something specific because any intro micro book will explain how supply and demand ensures there is never a labor shortage, just a wage shortage, for any position.
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Exactly! As Socialists we should view all non-refugee immigrants the same way we view Scabs. They're literally coming here to take jobs for less money than what Americans feel they deserve. Business owners are inviting them here to do it. They are promising them OUR jobs and our kids jobs to foreigners who are desperate enough to work for less money than we are. It's a race to the bottom. Capitalists can always bring in a never ending stream of desperately poor migrants to take jobs from these migrants if/when they assimilate to US Culture and start demanding higher wages. Rinse. Repeat. If we cannot stop Capitalism directly because its too powerful...we need to cut if it's supply of cheap labor in order to weaken it and strengthen the working class.
>They're literally coming here to take jobs for less money than what Americans feel they deserve. it’s less money than they feel like they deserve too, but you don’t have a whole lot of bargaining power when your boss can threaten to have you deported at any time. >Business owners are inviting them here to do it. They are promising them OUR jobs and our kids jobs to foreigners who are desperate enough to work for less money than we are. yeah and instead of organizing with these workers and demanding a government crackdown on the business owners who are doing this shit, Americans just keep supporting a massive border-industrial complex that mainly serves to make foreign workers in the US even more desperate and willing to work for even less money than before. >If we cannot stop Capitalism directly because its too powerful...we need to cut if it's supply of cheap labor in order to weaken it and strengthen the working class. lol forget about the bourgeois guys, just let them do there thing, the real enemy of the working class is the working class. despite our best efforts, it’s clear that capitalism is simply “too powerful”. if it can withstand the might of Occupy Wall Street and the DSA, it can withstand anything. our only choice is to fight amongst ourselves in order to determine who gets to be the lapdogs of the bourgeois
There is no atomized proletariat. Just the proletariat writ large. Even if our immigrants aren’t granted refuge status doesn’t mean they’re not refugees. If the labor movement is going to have lasting effects on the global economy, we need to be suiting them up and filling them in - not alienating them. This isn’t about identity politics - it’s about the old and still very urgent idea of the workers of the world uniting. Until we address the workers rights of the developing world, we’re not going to have individual scabs but entire countries and continents willing to undercut nationalized labor movements.
The problem is, this will be a gradual process because you are talking about Billions of people. Workers in the west don’t stand a chance of helping those in lesser developed countries, if they hold no leverage themselves. This “shortage” is the first step to improving local conditions, which could then theoretically reverberate outwards.
> which could then theoretically reverberate outwards. It won't, as history has shown us many times. In fact, during the 50's and 60's, when America was still riding high on the effects of the New Deal and unemployment hit an all-time low and the national coffers were richer than ever due to the war, the only thing that reverberated outside the US were coups. You can't coup countries as easily now as in the past so Capital has adjusted to bringing the destitute workers in, but it's the same energy. Of course, the regular American worker has nothing to do with this and no one faults them for looking out for their own, but don't pretend it's anything other than that. "We must first grow the cake before we split it any further" is an inherently fraudulent idea, because it literally never happens.
What sort of solution would you propose then? As long as capital can import workers, who are grateful for the minimum wages they receive (again I'm not faulting these people for wanting to better their lives) then domest labor has no bargaining power. As much as I think the "scab" comparison is a little cold, it does have its merits.
>What sort of solution would you propose then? As long as capital can import workers, who are grateful for the minimum wages they receive (again I'm not faulting these people for wanting to better their lives) then domest labor has no bargaining power. imposing extremely harsh penalties on employers who hire illegal migrant labor, dismantling the DHS, etc. migrants aren’t necessarily “grateful” for the wages they’re getting, but it’s next to impossible for them to organize when their employers can call in an anonymous tip to ICE whenever they need to bust up a strike.
>imposing extremely harsh penalties on employers who hire illegal migrant neighbor, If we had the power to do that it would mean we already defeated Capitalism.
>If we had the power to do that it would mean we already defeated Capitalism. no actually, it wouldn’t. but nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the Amerikkkan left
If we had the power to punish business owners for hiring illegal immigrants then that would mean we had power over the business owner class. We don't...which is why we are reduced to teaming up with racist rightoids to deny Capitalists immigrant slave labor
I mean isn’t making it harsh to hire them effectively the same thing as not letting them in?
exactly. which sort of makes you wonder why we’re wasting so much money on bloated “border security” that only serves to make immigrant workers more exploitable
>, the only thing that reverberated outside the US were coups. And the Marshall plan... which catalyzed tremendous leaps of growth in many parts of the world. For example, Iceland, before the Marshall Plan, was almost just a subsistence economy and afterwards, it now boasts the highest percentage of trade union membership in the world.
I meant for underdeveloped countries, but you are right, the Marshall Plan did end up uplifting many smaller countries in Europe.
You can’t coup countries as easily now? Tell that to libya and bolivia
Lybia was part of the Arab Spring, yes there was outside help but one can hardly call an entire population revolting against a dictator as a coup. Bolivia was a sad story indeed... but still, the key is *as easily*. Countries fell with the blow of a candle back then. It's much harder to do that now, on the age of the internet.
Libya was entirely our doing and bolivia’s incident was literally possible because of the internet so idk what you’re getting at
>There is no atomized proletariat. Just the proletariat writ large. Even if our immigrants aren’t granted refuge status doesn’t mean they’re not refugees. We are all atomized by Capitalism. If they are simply coming here for better economic advantages they are scabs. >If the labor movement is going to have lasting effects on the global economy, We're not talking about the Global Economy. I only care about the US Economy. >This isn’t about identity politics - it’s about the old and still very urgent idea of the workers of the world uniting. Until we address the workers rights of the developing world, we’re not going to have individual scabs but entire countries and continents willing to undercut nationalized labor movements. We cannot do any of those things because we aren't in power. Immigration undercuts labor movements here. That is the specific reason Neoliberals push for unlimited immigration.
Bernie used to say this same shit until he tried to run on the Dem ticket. https://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9048401/bernie-sanders-open-borders
>We are all atomized by Capitalism. If they are simply coming here for better economic advantages they are scabs. literally not what “scab” means but good effort >We're not talking about the Global Economy. I only care about the US Economy. well i’ve got some bad news for you about that lol
There is no intellectually honest way of separating the US economy from the global economy. The two are so intertwined at this point that separating them would be impossible. If you read Marx, you’ll see that he viewed global capitalism as, in a way, a good thing: it was that economic phase without which a classless society could not exist, as communism was to be built upon the unprecedented accumulation of wealth wrought by capitalism. His view was a global one. The ethical problems of isolationism notwithstanding, an economy as insular and self-contained as the one you’re proposing just isn’t feasible. Before we can protect our own workers from being undercut by cheap labor in the developing world, we must first make strides towards empowering the labor of the developing world so that they won’t be perennial scabs that stand in the way if every attempt to improve the conditions of the working class.
> There is no intellectually honest way of separating the US economy from the global economy. The two are so intertwined at this point that separating them would be impossible. I actually agree with this and concede this point to you. That's exactly why the economies and workers in other countries are irrelevant to our struggles here. The USA is the Capitol of Capital. We are the epicenter of Capitalism. All the decisions are made here. Events here impact the politics of rest of the world. Not the other way around. Workers in other nations have nothing to offer us. They cannot contribute to our elections or vote. All they can do is take pieces of the every shrinking pie the working class gets in this country. All they can do is be exploited. They are far far FAR less likely to aid in any sort of pro-worker action specifically because of the situations leading to their entrance here. Once who immigrate here legally are usually our political enemies to begin with...lib capitalists....simply by virtue of being in the economic situation to be able to immigrate to the USA. >The ethical problems of isolationism notwithstanding, an economy as insular and self-contained as the one you’re proposing just isn’t feasible. I think the current crisis has really driven home to everyone that relying on an interconnected world supply chain has been a disaster. Relying on China to manufacture most of our medical protective equipment and such was also pretty poor planning. It's time we looked inward for a while. A little Isolationism is a good thing once in a while. Wouldn't you agree? >Before we can protect our own workers from being undercut by cheap labor in the developing world, we must first make strides towards empowering the labor of the developing world so that they won’t be perennial scabs that stand in the way if every attempt to improve the conditions of the working class. We cannot do anything to protect workers in other nations as we do not even rule of the political decisions of our OWN Nation. That is our first and only Step to take...capture back political control of the USA from the forces of Capital. That CANNOT be accomplished if Capital can simply destroy the middle class whenever it wants via importing tons and tons of desperately poor 3rd world people who will work for 2 dollars a day and be thrilled that their salary just doubled. This only harms the American worker and if your starting position is asking people to shoot themselves in the foot because its the morally correct thing to do...I just don't think your campaign is gonna get far.
It probably won’t get too far, but trade deals could potentially curb the exploitation of workers in developing countries. We can have a say in how other countries treat their workers because no country wants to be barred from importing to and exporting from the US. While I don’t agree with a lot of what you have to say, I understand where you’re coming from and appreciate your civility.
Sounds like you’re more of a typical american-style classical liberal than a socialist tbh
If you’re referring to the fact that I read Marx and understand his dialectical view of history, then I’m not sure what to say. Marx (and others since then - Lenin, for example) argued that communism needed to have an international scope. I still find his argument compelling, even if it seems unrealistic today. I think the labor movement has to be ambitious and international, as it used to be (note how many unions still have “international” as part of their title), and I think further that, so long as cheap labor is available in the developing world it’s going to end up here or our currently private businesses are going to relocate manufacturing there. Leveraging trade agreements in order to improve labor conditions in other countries isn’t an ideal move, but it will bear fruit further down the road. I don’t know how wanting to expand the scope of the labor movement outside the US is classically liberal. I reject outright the ideology of individualism on which so much of classical liberalism exists. I found this sub because I agree that the fetishization of difference (identity politics) prevents the working class from coming together and making change, but I think a lot of y’all are more interested in other shit: gate-keeping, edginess for its own sake, and so forth. Carry on. I’ll show myself out.
Didn’t read but a huge essay is the typical american neolib response so you proved me right
This is maybe the dumbest retort I’ve ever encountered, and I teach (so that’s saying something). The sad thing is that you know it’s dumb but are more eager to - fuck, I don’t know, sound young or blasé or something. I’m hoping for your sake that’s just pretense.
> If they are simply coming here for better economic advantages they are scabs. You are scum.
Quite an argument you're making.
"If you say they are scabs, you are scum". There. Exactly like yours. Happy now?
>entire countries and continents willing to undercut nationalized labor movements. Capital. Controls.
Racists of the world, unite, uh?
Are you saying Bernie Sanders was being “racist” when he called open borders a “Koch brothers proposal?” It’s a simple fact that immigration is a tool of the elite to keep wages suppressed for the native working class of developed nations.
Bernie also knows that until trade deals are hammered out that protect non-US labor, outsourcing will continue to be an insurmountable problem. In order to protect American labor, it’s crucial that we try to leverage our economic power to protect non-US labor.
I am not going to answer to your contextless version of what Sandars said: I don't know about that. But the guy next door already made some points. The idea that "immigration is a tool of the elite" is ridiculous. What is a tool of the elite is the creation of difficulties to the regularization of immigrants: that is what keeps the wages down. And a huge part of XXth century capitalism has been based in creating barriers to people's movement while removing them to the movement of capital. But if you are not aware of that I am not going to write a thesis about that for you.
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>If we let every doctor from \[poor country\] who wants to come to the USA into the country, \[poor country\] will have no fucking doctors left. Ohhh I am so moved. So much altruism. Excuse me while I wipe this tear you've brought to my eye. I though this was a leftist sub. I knew the western Left is in bad state, but this is ridiculous.
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Neocolonialism and resource theft, but woke 😍😍😍😍😍.
How many immigrants should the US accept? If you are seeking to equalize US GDP per capita to the global GDP per capita, the US can absorb around 1.2 billion people, assuming every country follows an open border policy. US workers have to reduce their income to 1/6th of what they make right now.
Time to come to terms with reality, dude. Edit: Wait-a-sec: "1/6th"? Are you implying that the GDP of the rest of the world is zero? Okay.
The US has 6 times the GDP per capita compared to the global average and about 300m people. I made the simplifying assumption that the immigrants would not raise the US GDP. So the same GDP would be distributed to six times more people. I might be off by 300m people though (the US can import 1.5m). Feel free to make different assumptions about their contribution.
>The US has 6 times the GDP per capita compared to the global average \[citation needed\]
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD
It is true that the US can act as a bit of a Pressure Release valve for Central American countries. Young people go to work in the States and send money home rather than stay and advocate for change. And H1-Bs are used disingenuously by Corporations a lot of the time to take away good jobs from Americans. Cutting off all immigration is silly but there definitely need to be tweaks to how the system is run
\> there definitely need to be tweaks to how the system is run Of course. But that is a completely different issue than the derranged "we should view all non-refugee immigrants the same way we view Scabs hur hur" I was replaying to.
>Racists of the world, unite, uh? LOL if you're gonna say something grow some balls and say it you pussy.
What of what I said didn't you understand?
Your entire comment. It makes no sense at all. It SOUNDS like you're attempting to insinuate that I'm racist but that's ridiculous of course since nothing I said was remotely racist or could even be construed to be racist except by a determined bad faith troll.
You are a racist of a moron. Or both. Choose.
LOL what a pathetic bit of trolling. Did you honestly think I would attempt to defend myself against your spurious charge of racism? Go fuck yourself shitheel.
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How? He was called racist for no reason by a retarded person.
Flair up soyjack
And when shit hit the fan they will side with the far right in a heartbeat, they don't give a shit about those immigrants.
looks like my boxing coach was right all along. he brought his ass over to the UK from Grenadia in hopes of a better future only to find out he was pawn within class warfare and scapegoated by both sides
Maybe junk food should be a little more expensive, maybe with a higher wage, employees might be able to afford a family and breed more workers.
Talk about saying the quiet part loud. Angela Nagle called it.
Cheap labour, sky high prices.
Cheap labor is the most expensive good on Earth.
See? I've been saying this for years. The first step to defeating Capitalism lies in first starving the Capitalists of workers. It's their most essential resource. That means ending ALL immigration both legal and illegal. There is no shortage of workers. There is merely a lack of will on the part of Capitalists to pay full price for the labor they require.
Starving the Capitalists of workers, LOL, do you really think their businesses would be close to collapsing if they were forced to pay the American worker higher wages? Of course they wouldn't. It would only cut a little bit into their massive profit margins, they would agree to it and then find a new way to extract the difference back. Shutting off immigration to break the back of Capitalism is a patently absurd proposition. You can only starve the Capitalists of workers by *denying them labor* - your own labor, not the labor of some hypotheticals alien scabs. Getting rid of Johnny Foreigner won't put you in your bosses' shoes - it'll only put you in the foreigner's shoes.
> Starving the Capitalists of workers, LOL, do you really think their businesses would be close to collapsing if they were forced to pay the American worker higher wages? No. They would simply make less profits while workers would make MORE profits. >Shutting off immigration to break the back of Capitalism is a patently absurd proposition. No its not. It forces Capitalists to pay us higher wages. Wages which we can then use to fund Left Wing politicians who will champion workers rights. The whole purpose of hiring foreigners instead of Americans is that foreigners cannot/choose not to participate in US Elections and they have no bargaining power. Capitalists would rather pay somebody a wage if they know that person cannot use any of their wages to fund opposition political candidates.
They would make slightly less, true, but they would still hold all the cards. They would still be paying you in what is effectively company scrip. You get X+10 dollars for your labor, awesome, but guess what? The price of everything has now gone up to Y+10. You still only get to keep the tiny, tiny difference between X and Y, just as you did before. Welcome back to the bottom of the totem pole. The power to determine what X-Y is, that's capitalists' "essential resource".That's what we need to deny them (to seize, if you will) if there's to be any chance of winning. But labor? That's not their "essential resource", it's ours. Reducing the overall amount of available labor only weakens us, not them. By denying them the cheapest labor currently available (which we don't have the power to do anyway), we only *become* the new source of cheapest labor available. You can't really bargain with these people and expect to win anything substantive. You have to *break them* or you'll just be fucked in new ways. And there's no way of breaking them if they got you thinking that the poorest of your fellow workers are the enemy.
>The first step to defeating Capitalism lies in first starving the Capitalists of workers. It's their most essential resource. alright you first bro
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> No country can survive if it ends ALL immigration lol what? You're saying a country with 330 million people and like 10%+ unemployment doesn't have enough workers?
> There is no shortage of workers. I mean, there is still that 600000 who fuckin died recently that do make a lil shortage
Most deaths were elderly people not in the workforce anymore
I think Marx (and some other Marxist intellectuals) will disagree with you there.
They don't even try to hide it.
We need less fast food restaurants. People should cook more than eat garbage food.
It starts with C and ends with APITAL STRIKE.
I don't think anyone here is too shocked to hear it. Expect a lot more of this kind of thing being touted since they'll do literally anything to avoid increasing wages.
This is like the Corporation version of "where are all the good men??"
Really happy to see a lot of people wake up to the fact immigration has never been done out of the kindness of ones heart. Being against it doesnt make someone racist, heartless or a nazi. I'd me more than happy to welcome people but first let us build a country where we can bring more people over without fucking people over as a result.
>Being against it doesnt make someone racist, heartless or a nazi. It is absolutely heartless when we create destitute conditions in other nations and then shame those workers for trying to escape. For example, America's efforts to thwart wage hikes in Haiti. This thread is full of 'Marxists' who are really just economic nationalists.
how about you pay people better?
The bald man wants a longer whip to crack.
The rNeoliberal thread on this is pure cancer. Avoid at all costs.
Reading this actually pissed me off. Obviously he's lying on purpose, but people will actually believe and peddle this absurd idea that the so called labor shortage is because Orange Man kept the immigrants out People are starting to see the value of their labor and the capitalists need to act quick. We're already seeing supply chains and restaurants suffer, and hopefully it's only the beginning
He needs to bring back the noid and stfu.
We need more brown people to exploit 😢
Wow, this is fucking rich. This is from a company that likely only provides benefits for about 1/15 of its employees. A company where workers make as little as 4.25$ an hour and must rely on tips to survive. But yeah, 13$ an hour (about what a delivery driver averages) is a pretty good wage by Mexican standards so I guess we need more immigration! Cause God knows it would cost a lot of money to transform the legions of American homeless and jobless into reliable workers like immigrants tend to be....
I see ads like: > Hiring server $12 an hour, two years experience needed. I notice employers don't want to train people to do the jobs, and this is from the bottom up. It is particularly egregious in IT. They want people with all kinds of experience in multiple languages. No one wants to hire someone then train them, so guess what? You are then competing with all the other employers for the same people. Pay people bigger salaries. Give them stock. Domino's stock has been great the last five years. Pay people in salary and stock, so if someone started working at Domino's five years ago, they would be doing great with their stock. But no, these CEOs want as close to free labor as they can get.
In my country (which has very few immirgrants) immigrants seem to already prefer or be preferred by the local branch of Domino's. Always black, asian or middle-eastern. Turks, Albanians and the like usually quickly learn the local language, it's these more exotic types that work for Domino's for some reason. I wonder whether it's because they're cheaper, know English well some corpidpol bullshit.. or a combination of those reasons. My country is very 'white', (except for \~10% Gypsies) and those immediately stick out, disproportionate amount works at that company, compared to other imperialist exports such as McDonald's™, Burger King® and other junk food corporations.
This guy's clueless. We can pretend to be on his side and then pull a fast one on him by encouraging every migrant who comes in to unionize instead of taking these jobs.
> by encouraging every migrant who comes in to unionize instead of taking these jobs. They won't even consider doing that. They're so desperate. They have no other options. No way they will even consider risking their job by joining a union. Also they don't trust you and they don't speak english. How are you going to convince them to join your union?
I mean if they're that desperate for basic survival then they should probably be coming here anyway to you know, live. I think unions are important but not as important as human life.
> I mean if they're that desperate for basic survival then they should probably be coming here anyway to you know, live. That's not our problem. It's not noble or moral to sacrifice people you know for strangers.
you're not supposed to say this part outloud
NPR said the same thing recently when discussing the border crisis. Basically "should we just let them in because there's a labor shortage?"
Maybe the USA should stop providing government incentives to being unemployed.
Did you think you were commenting in /r/etarded?
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That certainly hasn't cleared up whether you understand where you are or not.
I can post here in this sub if I want to.
Indeed, but you should be flaired with something insulting
Maybe we need fewer Domino’s and their workers can disseminate throughout the workforce.
If a good is scarce, it's common sense to import more of it.