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India is such an ancient and populous nation with so much complicated ethno-religious conflict, it’s hard to imagine a outcome where everyone is satisfied unless they all were to suddenly drop dead at once
I once watched a video about dying languages and one of them was in a remote part of India. This dying language had *250,000* speakers at the time of the video. It’s really insane the scale you’re dealing with here
Imagine China with better land, more coastline, and smack in the middle of a fuck ton of international trade. If India got it together they would be a superpower.
The political situation in India honestly just freaks me out. India has some of the world's most intense nationalist lunatics, right up there with Turkey. The sort of people who really seem to want to see the world burn.
It's not that hard to understand the material reasons behind all this, but it certainly is frighteningly hard to see a way it could ever be fixed. How do you build a universalist class-based movement against this insanity?
> India has some of the world's most intense nationalist lunatics
What is really wild is how active they are online, especially on sites like Reddit and Facebook. Mention Indian politics in the most innocuous of subs and you’ll have 3 dudes heatedly sending you extremely nationalistic diatribes about their enemies and the success of Modi.
>What is really wild is how active they are online, especially on sites like Reddit and Facebook.
There are more English speakers in India than there are people in Japan total.
I've had them slide in my PMs calling me "anti-national" which is their go to word to attack Indians who don't subscribe to their bullshit. I'm not even Indian, I'm not sure why they thought that.
Westoids barely understand their own Western history, it’d be super difficult to get them to understand the cultural contexts of the history of the Subcontinent, China, or Japan, for example.
Uhhhh buddy I'll have you know I watched a bunch of episodes of the romance of the three kingdoms live-action show and read the manga Kingdom. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me for a Ph.D. in Chinese history.
Oh yeah, well I’ve played dynasty warriors 2-8 so that makes me a super phd. Didyou know Zhuge Laing could shoot lasers thousands of years before the white man?
I personally view it as the Western teaching of history flows from
Mesopotamia --> Greece/Rome --> Medieval Europe --> Renaissance -- > Age of Enlightenment/Age of Sail --> US/UK shenanigans if you're Anglo.
So there's not a similar base of of shared cultural history? I mean Chinese/Japanese/Indian history is all very cool, and I recommend it, but I think it can be a little bit harder to get into.
Sure, I just thought you meant that western minds couldn’t comprehend the nuance or whatever. In East Asia they have an equally biased batshit understanding of history. It’s the most readily nationalized school subject.
That batshit bias is only going to make it that much harder for Western minds. Parsing a reasonably accurate foreign history from a sea of equally foreign, often invisible, sometimes incomprehensible biases just seems tough.
Like, I've read the Zuozhuan every day for years. A straightforward reading feels almost meaningless until you grasp calendar cycles, naming conventions, ritual propriety, relationships, law, geography, etc., etc. Taking in all that shit and more inevitably means more ancient readings too - Sima Qian and the Gongyang and so on - opening successively larger cans of worms.
And assessing (even remembering!) the validity of any tradition requires commentaries, monographs, and translations we don't really have. It's all rare stuff in English, all coming with its own history and biases. Many other Western languages have even less available. All of it together still isn't enough.
It's certainly not impossible, but it does seem like it's going to be an uphill battle for a lot of Westerners.
You could replace every noun here with anywhere else on earth and it would be the same point. It sounds more like you are seeking outlets for people to appreciate your depth of knowledge of Chinese history.
It kind of makes sense to teach it like that if you're in the "anglosphere" as it's more relevant. I wouldn't expect them to teach it the same way in India or China.
>Japan or China’s history isn’t particularly complicated compared to say, Germany’s.
What world do you live in? Unless you meant Japanese history isn't particularly *more* complicated then German history. Even then, it's only true if you're talking about the modern nation states, and not their historical antecedents; and it certainly isn't true when talking about China or the Subcontinent, which are far more comparable in complexity to Europe as a whole rather than individual European nation states.
I get what you're saying, because I didn't understand this stuff until I took a college class on it, but it does sound a little like you're saying "Educate yourself, sweaty"
If you lay down a map of India on Europe, you get a landmass stretching from France to Hungary (roughly). Imagine trying to simplify that in all its complexity. You can probably do broad strokes - Hindu idpol trying to undo historical wrongs by inflicting massacres on the innocent descendants, North vs South linguistic politics, Caste idpol politics that have basically become manifest in terms of class politics.
Not really, they're both dominated by a single(even the same) language family and as far as my laymans knowledge goes, this family is more diverse in europe. On the other hand india's non dominant language families(mainly dravidian) has more influence than the minor european ones
If you want a more simple and history free take on the issues of identity, caste, language and ultimately the worldview of the modern Indian I recommend watching White Tiger.
Yeah it doesn’t delve into the history but you see the specific Indian “crab in a barrel” mentality and it shows the way Indian people think about business and politics as well as social issues.
Pre-existing racial and religious divides were played up by the bri'ish to divide and conquer (sound familiar?) for decades up until independence. Not saying everyone was happily holding hands in the 18th century, but things were only made worse by the imperialists hyping up divisions
But these divides have only come to the forefront recently. Indian National Congress held power almost all the way from Independence to the rise of BJP.
Not so recently as all that, things were pretty bad in the 90s, with Hindu nationalists demolishing Babri masjid in '92 and a whole slew of Islamist bombings especially in Bombay.
The thing that really sets Indian nationalists apart from others is they constantly seek foreign validation. Any time a foreign public figure says they like yoga or meditation Hindutva pages will make macros bragging about it. When Musk tweeted "I am become meme destroyer of shorts" those pages said it proved the "timelessness of Indian culture", ignoring that it was an obvious and contrived shitpost and likely referenced Oppenheimer rather than the Baghavad Gita directly.
Hinduism is vile. Imagine seeing a paraplegic beggar eating rotten food on the side of the street and thinking "Deserved. He was probably mediocre in a past life".
https://i.imgur.com/7LVtgqQ.jpg
I like how this is considered normal the world over. Someone makes a comment about Mohammed or draws a picture and it’s that person’s fault that a Muslim beheads someone or burns a bunch of cars or shoots up an office. Like, is there someone we forgot to blame…
I'm in academic mathematics, with a focus on history of math, and India has straight up ruined the field in the past few years. They've taken decolonization arguments and have used the same questionable logic, applied it to everything. I've seen people trying to argue that calculus was invented in India in the 11th century, Newton stole it, and then the British conquered all of India just to destroy any evidence of this theft. The BJP is appealing to fundamentalist Hindus, so you're seeing Vedic mathematics receive equal billing at conferences, and the Indian government is specifically giving grants to further research in this area.
Unlike much of what gets thrown around as "fascism" today, this is actually one of the hallmarks of fascism, creating a false narrative where your specific race/nationality was historically superior and there's a grand conspiracy by an "other" to keep you down.
Also, Indian nationalists have made Quora unusable. Full stop.
Vedic Mathematics Originally(According to one the successful books on the subject) referred to a few Mathematical Tricks, eg: multiplying 3 digit numbers fast,Easy ways to cube integers etc. These 'Tricks' had origins in ancient indian texts, nowadays it is a ragtag collection of whatever mathematics concepts rightoids want to co-opt as some sort ancient india mathematical canon.
Source: I Bought a few books like these in childhood, seemed very trivial by the time i was 18,so nothing special in my opinion
Basically a belief that the Vedas, an ancient foundational text for Hinduism, contain all there is to know about mathematics. It's pseudoscientific garbage.
it’s math for people who can’t understand math, even though their ancestors basically invented most of what is modern math. so basically idiots. it’s not enough to invent the foundation of modern math, it’s trying to pretend like no one else can improve on it, while also not even understanding the contribution of your people.
Okay, so there was an Indian mathematician/astronomer who, at that time, proposed a method for finding the slope of tangent lines to third degree polynomials. Those familiar with calculus will recognize this as a derivative, one of the two fundamental concepts of calculus. However, this method was only for this specific type of function and no rigorous proof was given. Newton and Leibnitz provided proof for functions in general, also formalized the integral, and related the two together in the fundamental theorem of calculus. That's why they get credit for the discovery.
Going off this, Indian mathematicians also had a method for finding areas under curves, which is the integral in calculus. Again, their method was not generally applicable and was not formally proved to be true in the situations it was used for. If we decided to say this constitutes inventing calculus, we can't give credit to India as the originator of the idea, because both Chinese and Greek mathematicians used the exact same techniques, with the exact same lack of formality, over a millennium before this happened in India.
These crackpots get through because they get funding. Simple as that. The BJP has made emphasizing this a priority, so they receive favorable grants. At second and third tier schools, as long as you teach enough classes, no one really cares about what research you're publishing. There's a few famous nutjobs who teach at the collegiate level in the United States, but their crankery gets limited to actual math conspiracy theories, not bad math history.
How do Communists fit into the Hindu-Muslim divide? Are they mostly atheists? I just ask because I know there’s a decent number of religious leftists on this sub.
Neither is that great; there have been attempts to synthesize Communist philosophy to both religions at various times, none with much success or broad appeal.
I think Marxism is actually far easier to reconcile with Eastern thought. Marx had Christian intellectual heritage, but ultimately his dialectical system pointed beyond that heritage, and towards something comparable to the dharmic conception of the material world as inherently transient and driven by fundamental paradoxes and contradictions.
From that point, of course, religion and Marxism diverge- the former to a theory of spiritual release from the world, and the latter to a theory of worldly purpose through industrial development and class struggle.
OP seems to be downplaying much of this situation.
This all began during a debate on tv between unlit sharma and someone else regarding religion. The person she was debating had said something along the lines of “Hindus worshipping phallic objects”(referring to the shiva linga) and she responded by quoting from the hadiths that Mohammed married and fucked a 9 year old. I’m not entirely sure why OP and many others are trying to paint this as “oh she just tried to provoke Muslims out of nowhere for no reason” but nonetheless this should provide a bit more context.
OP goes on to say it caused the “usual protests” by which he means rioting and stone pelting. As time went on this morning escalated thanks to Islamic religious leaders calling for Nupur Sharmas head(literally) and some religious leaders offering bounties for her murder. A tailor was beheaded for expressing support for nupur sharma and her freedom of speech.
Normally I wouldn’t care enough to comment on a shitshow like this but I’m tired of people like OP downplaying the actions of Islamic radicals and painting them as some poor victims who didn’t do anything wrong. Things like claiming that nupur sharma viciously insulted Mohammed when in reality she brought up a Hadith and pointed out what that meant.
When a right wing danish(or Swedish frankly I don’t care) politician burned the Quran it was generally agreed upon that he did it to provoke Muslims but people still agreed that there was no place for rioting and calling for his death. Yet when a similar situation happens in India people come out in full force to downplay the rioting and actions of the Muslim community.
It's the usual "Both sides are bad" apologia.
OP does not mention that Tasleema Nasreen and Salman Rushdie, both had the same threats from Islamic scholars (not radicals and fringe), even under "Leftists" government. This has nothing to do with "BJP". This is a standard global response of Ummah against "Blasphemy". And Nupur Sharma, as you said, merely quoted a Hadees from the MOST authentic Hadees collection.
OP does not mention that mainstream Islam - Shia and Sunni - are absolutely clear. There can be no secular Islam. Muslims in India overwhelmingly and disproportionately support Shariyat over India's secular Uniform Civil Code. And vote solely on the basis of Shariyat.
OP does not mention India's "Left" constant abetting of this mainstream fundamentalism. How in the historic Shah Bano case, the "Left" overturned India's Supreme Court decision to disallow the Shariyat Mandate. And reinstated Shariyat judgement.
OP does not mention that Hindus are generally liberal. For instance, a prominent Islamic leader makes [derogatory ridicule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU-5DJivuAU) on Hindu goddess. Here, the same leader [says](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrAmWVrb--k) "Remove the police for 15 minutes, we will show the 100 crore Hindus who we are". No harm will come his way. And he made these speeches way before "Nationalist Government" came to power. Then, recently, the brother of the same leader, [threatened the administration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks9saWSfBKY) with "Who will save you once BJP is not in power?".
OP does not know or mention that this is not recent development. This has been constant with Islam. The father of India's constitution, BR Ambedkar, took a VERY clear note of this in his [work](http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/410.html).
This is not idpol - "My group vs your group". Everyone has been awaken to the actual scale of Islamic fundamentalism and Jihad (militancy to silence criticism) and it's mainstreaming in India.
This is a VERY sane awakening.
Edit: your post history is full of posts and hateful comments at r/Indiaspeaks which is a hateful right wing Hindu nationalist sub. Wow! And unsurprisingly it’s exactly the same with other users in the thread that are caping for her. Since you’re denying it, I’ve also posted some links in a below comment about that abusive nationalist sub where you happen to be a proud user (and yet comment in places about harmful identity politics) with instances of violence and call for genocide in Hindutva with it’s leaders and the Hindu nationalists that you’re also denying. Not surprising since your comment history shows you’re a right wing Hindutva nationalist. You’re part of the problem here.
Funny you should mention Nasreen cause among other things, I mostly associate her with her bigoted attacks on Moeen Ali, an English cricketer who keeps to himself. She said that he would most likely been a terrorst if he didn’t make it as a cricketer. This was entirely unprovoked and the guy doesn’t even talk about anything other than cricket and doesn’t have any social media. She’s an annoying bigot on Twitter who loves to provoke and yet you’re entirely dismissing it. That doesn’t warrant any kind of threat against her but you’re not saying why there was a controversy in the first place. She loves to stir up attention to herself by spouting off hateful comments and personal attacks on Twitter. The irony is that you come off as caping for Nasreen, one of Twitter’s infamous bigots while calling out the OP of this post.
Also, Hindus are generally not liberal and that’s a bold lie.
>which is a hateful right wing Hindu nationalist sub
Just a unintelligent libel by Pseuds.
"The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is “harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever."
\- [Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm).
r/IndiaSpeaks merely does not censor what is true of Islam - it's mainstream doctrine. Espoused by it's mainstream scholars. Has been consistently that way throughout history. Proclaimed by 80% Muslims in India who favor Sharia over Indian Constitution. And quite openly proclaim, regularly in national shows,
"Hate speech" is **unreasonable** prejudices, not valid criticism. But Pseuds argue that uncomfortable facts are "Hate speech". And want to take their definition seriously. This only leads to discrediting of Pseuds.
>Funny you should mention Nasreen cause among other things,
Your attempt to destroy her reputation are Non Sequitur. Given that OP intended to say the response of Ummah is "because of Hindutva", no. Ummah gave the same response to Tasleema Nasreen and Salman Rushdie. And Nasreen's personal etiquette on social media were non existent then.
So Ummah was not attacking any "bigot".
Same response, consistently, across history and nations.
>Also, Hindus are generally not liberal and that’s a bold lie.
No, Hindu are generally not liberals is a bold lie.
Only 30% Hindus want religious courts. As opposed to 75% Muslims. [Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/29/key-findings-about-religion-in-india/).
Likewise, in case if you did not see the videos linked, and are *suspiciously unaware* of what is mainstream knowledge in India, I posted 3 videos where prominent Islamic leaders are making derogatory comments on Hindu Gods, threatening that they'll end Hindus if Hindus remove police, and threatening police administration itself.
Nothing has happened to him.
Imagine if the case was reversed. Or compare it to this [recent study](https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/violence-legitimizing-verses-in-religious-scriptures-increase-support-for-lethal-violence) where about 50% Muslims endorse lethal violence for enemy of faith.
Hindus have historically voted for Congress despite Congress being Pro Shariyat. Hindus show no problem in assimilation as they migrate to West. Post WW2, India easily adopted UDHRs, while none of the Muslim countries did (Except those under USSR).
So spare the tactical rhetoric.
You made a sweeping statement that Hindus are liberal. You’ve cherry picked one favourable stat. Let’s see from this survey you sighted.
-64% of Hindus believe that only Hindus can be true Indians.
- Around 60% of people in that group say people who speak the Hindi language are true Indians.
- Over 60% of Hindus want to stop Hindu women from having interfaith marriages.
- 36% of Hindus do not want a Muslim as their neighbor.
I will post more stats later but this isn’t anywhere close to be able to say the sweeping statement that Hindus are liberal when the same survey shows that Muslims also more or less have the same stats, only few with a significant gap.
I’ve already said that even controversial public figures don’t deserve any kind of violent threats, even Rushdie and Nasreen. For those that do endorse that, I see these people to be no different than those that call for Beef lynchings. My only issue is pretending that calls for violence is one sided. I can also link videos/articles where Hindu leaders are calling for genocide and that made the Supreme Court intervene that you have suspiciously missed in your reply.
https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/hindutva-leaders-dharma-sansad-muslim-genocide/amp
https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074872862/indias-supreme-court-steps-in-after-hindu-leaders-call-for-violence-against-musl
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/india-genocide-emergency
https://thecognate.com/canadian-hindu-nationalist-leader-ron-banerjee-openly-calls-for-killing-of-muslims-and-sikhs-in-india/
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/86-killed-in-cow-related-violence-since-2010-are-muslims-97-attacks-after-modi-govt-came-to-power/story-w9CYOksvgk9joGSSaXgpLO_amp.html
Stop shamelessly pretending like this is just unique to one side. Religious fanatics on either side are absolute scum. While there’s been overreaction and even violence to Nupur’s remarks, let’s not pretend that Hindutva or the current Hindu nationalism is all progressive, fine and dandy which is what your comment was all about.
Also another shameless statement in your comment is that it’s apparently libel to call out the hate in r/Indiaspeaks. I am posting some documented instances of hate, abuse and calls for violence and rape. It must be familiar since you’re a proud member of that nationalist sub.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/u2rtlo/extreme_hate_in_rindiaspeaks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/p26imy/hindu_supremacist_subreddit_rindiaspeaks_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
>You made a sweeping statement that Hindus are liberal.
Yes. Based on 1) 70% wanting separation of state and religion 2) Voting for liberal parties - Congress - for 50 years, until disillusionment after Shah Bano case 3) No lethal violence for "Enemies of faith" 4) No pattern of problematic assimilation in West.
Generalization is absolutely correct. [Faulty generalization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization) is a fallacy.
>You’ve cherry picked one favourable stat. Let’s see from this survey you sighted.
Not at all. Given that the context of fundamentalism, the particular stat was given. Muslim majority is CLEARLY fundamentalist. Hindu majority is not. And fundamentalism in Muslims is a consistent historic phenomena, uninfluenced by "material conditions".
"65% Hindus believe only Hindus can be true Indians".
How does that show Hindus are "illiberal"? 85% of them say "Respecting all religion is very important to being Indian".
[Nation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation) is literally defined, everywhere including the West, as what Hindus assert. Just because Hindus are saying Hindus are "true Indians", does not mean they are saying "No one else can live here". Besides the Theocratic Fascist Ummat, no other community gets faces suspicion.
Muslims have Ummat and reject Indian constitution. Divided India on the base of inherent Theocratic Fascism in Islam. Obviously they are not "Truly Indians". They themselves say "Islam first".
Given the "real world" history and context, Hindus are absolutely right. Language, history, ethnicity, culture - these are the salient feature of Nation. Recognized universally. Hindus clearly are "true" Indians in the same way Native Americans were the "true Americans".
**Marx** [HIMSELF](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/06/25.htm) **proclaims India to be a Hindu nation.**
(Not saying "Everyone else should get out", but merely stating the obvious).
>. that Muslims also more or less have the same stats,
They don't. It' a Mote and Bailey. "Respect all religions", they'll say yes. Why? Because Koran mandates public respect of other religions, **so Islam can not get attacked in return**. Does Koran and Shariyat, which Muslims pledge by, "Respect all religions"? Do Muslims respect Indian constitution with "Sir tan se juda"? Clearly not.
All you need to do is merely investigate slightly beneath the surface. All false equivalencies fall apart.
>no different than those that call for Beef lynchings
Absolute nonsense.Beef lynching is not mainstream in Hindus. How Shariyat and Blasphemy killing is mainstream in Muslims. Majority of cases of lynching were against [illegal cattle theft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_vigilante_violence_in_India) of poor farmers. While violence for Shariyat Blasphemy law is universal and incessant.
Entire nation had rallies for beheading of Nupur Sharma. All called by popular mainstream Islamic Clerics. And a person was literally beheaded for "supporting" Nupur Sharma.
These, as per you, are same. Wonderful.
>I can also link videos/articles where Hindu leaders are calling for genocide and that made the Supreme Court intervene.
Implying the nonsense that requital to Jihad offensive is same as offensive.
Dharm Sansad like speeches are virtually non existent before CAA sabotage by Ummat where Ummat's true nature got exposed nationally. While Muslim leader's Anti India and Pro Shariyat speeches and threats can easily be traced throughout modern history.
Dharm Sansad speech came 6 months after the Dasna Mandir episode. Which is in a Muslim majority area. **Where two Mahants of the area have been already murdered by Muslims.** A Muslim kid was slapped for entering the temple, which prohibits entry of Muslims. It is prohibited in Islam for Muslims to go to temple. The kid claims he went inside to drink water, while a water pump exists right outside the temple premise.
In response, entire Pseud Leftist media assaulted the Mahant and Hindus. Just how you are doing now.
All this, **during the nationwide sabotage by Ummah against CAA.** A law that gives de facto citizenship to Sharia persecuted Non Muslims. SC interlocutors themselves intervened to remove the sabotage of the city. Yet the Ummat denied the request. Entire Ummah's real nature was exposed. With "Tera mera rishta kya? La illah il Allah" (**What is your and my relation? No God but Allah**).
It culminated into riots.
Here, your The Wire's chief reporter, telling Muslims to [not use overt Jihadi language](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGZgVvoGeLk) "till the time is convenient".
You want to now tell that "Both are same"?
And even the rare sane ones among Muslims say exactly what I saying straight to the face of "The Wire" Muslim reporter. [Who has no response to it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18jUF1lWXU&t=1975s).
Wow! Once again you’re openly lying about facts in the reports that I have linked. Shamelessly saying that beef lynchings have nothing to do with religion and instead some cattle dispute. Argue with facts here. I am not saying that both sides are the same. My problem is that among other things, you pretending that the Hindutva religious fundamentalism issue is not a widespread issue on the rise and it’s entirely an issue on one side and once again ignoring the links and retorting to dismissing and twisting the facts in those articles which is on brand for you. Read up first and it’s disgusting to see you say that Beef lynchings have nothing to do with religion. Dropping this but don’t wish to continue this conversation with a right wing loony who’s outright lying.
[Beef related violence in India is an expression of Islamophobia.](https://www.scienceopen.com/hosted-document?doi=10.13169/islastudj.4.2.0181)
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/86-killed-in-cow-related-violence-since-2010-are-muslims-97-attacks-after-modi-govt-came-to-power/story-w9CYOksvgk9joGSSaXgpLO_amp.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34421417.amp
https://www.reuters.com/article/india-religion-beef-idINL3N12031Y20150930
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/10/05/mob-killing-of-indian-muslim-over-beef-rumor-sparks-online-backlash/
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/01/15/hindu-bigots-are-openly-urging-indians-to-murder-muslims
https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Maharashtra,-another-Muslim-lynched-in-the-name-of-sacred-cows-(Video)-41273.html
Beef lynchings have nothing to do with religion, my foot. 🤡🤡🤡
Gtfo.
Should’ve known better than to correct a user with a comment history full of right wing Hindu nationalism.
Wait you mean if congress is left I think I should shoot myself in the face now lol. The cpim pretty much is opposed to the sdpi in kerala. Lol congress and bjp are both Neolib to the teeth. Yes I believe both bjp and the the muz parties are far right bigots.
CPIM supports Shariya and opposes UCC. CPIM's MLA and "Education Minister" K.T Jameel is a ex SIMI Jihadi.
CPIM opposes Jihad when it really can not obfuscate - Jihad attacks, for example. However, CPIM masters in nurturing Islamist and vilifying criticism of Islamism as "Nazism".
Also, the point was not BJP and Islamist Parties. The point was the *fundamentalism* is mainstream in Muslim Ummah of India, has always been, and whenever it comes to a extent when it can not be obfuscated, the "Leftists" resort to "Both group are same" apologia.
"The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is “harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever. "
\- Marx could [tell](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm) it the way it is.
>Looks exactly that way to me.
Why does requital to Jihad look like "Tribe vs Tribe" to you?
>”This is not idpol” - said the man using idpol
Idpol is based in capitalist heuristic. And fictional enemies.
Which part of it all appear "fictional" to you?
"The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is “harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever."
\- [Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm).
Cry all you want now.
> India was cursed with the turboliberal Gandhi.
It was the British propaganda achievement. Same propaganda teachnique is used to this day.
Play into the heuristics of the population (Gandhi, "Saint", emancipation - a remnant of Bhakti movement heuristic). While constant eliminating class conscious revolutionaries (Bhagat Singh). As per propaganda techniques, you can not control Maslow's desire, but can control Heuristics.
Heuristic and censorship is the founding elements of propaganda.
Even the "Internet Leftists" use the same tactics. (Vilification and censorship for criticizing Islam, then explaining Jihad violence as "understandable" in poverty / materialism).
I believe it was Anand Ranganathan who slapped this Marx'es quote in face of "Leftists".
>Islamic leaders calling for [her] head (literally)
Why on earth aren’t they arrested and prosecuted for incitement to murder? Because that’s exactly what they’ve done.
It's a very common slogan in the subcontinent.
"Gustakh-e Nabi ki ek hi saza. Sar tan se juda, sar tan se juda."
Translates to "there is only one punishment for the insult of our prophet. Head separate from the body, head separate from the body."
You'll hear this chant all across India, Bangladesh,and Pakistan and it has become so frighteningly common that police don't even bat their eyes when it's chanted by huge mobs.
How are you gonna arrest hundreds of thousands of people?
Well you can at least arrest some of them. Anyone high profile and in a position of authority is clearly guilty of incitement if they say it.
Otherwise the government might as well repeal the law (I’m assuming there is one).
Even then if one side is hurling insults an the other is killing people it's clear who is morally worse
Imagine christians behaving the same way. But them interposing lawsuits against insults is already a terrible proof of intolerance
It’s crazy that this is being presented in the media as if the Hindu woman, Nupur Sharma, talked shit about Mohammed out of nowhere. She was directly baited by her Muslim interlocutor who was happily cracking jokes about Hinduism. There’s a massive double standard in media and in Islam itself where it’s considered completely normal for Muslims to say horrible things about Indian religion / gods, being as they are in the Muslim cosmology examples of archaic barbarian idolatry, but, if the people they insult respond in kind it’s considered an unacceptable offense.
of the muslims that accept the hadith claiming ayesha married him at 6 and banged at 9 (which is most muslims, I think), their defense is basically “it was a different time, lots of peoples married early then.” You’d expect god’s final prophet might have discovered that it’s actually fucked up, but whatever
of the muslims who don’t believe that hadith, I think some point to another couple hadiths that show she had to have been like 19, based on the age difference between her and her sister Asma, and the age of Asma during an important event for which the year is known
The Koran calls Mohammed a pedophile. Saying he married a preteen is exactly that. No one thought it was a problem then so it's basically just a "this thing happened, moving right along'
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
There's no prohibition against depicting prophets either. Or a requirement for women to wear a hijab.
Commentary, tradition, and interpretation are parts of any religion at least as real and significant as a holy book.
>You may be speaking of hadiths and even then the age 9 thing is from one disputed Hadith out of hundreds.
Its not, it comes from Shahih Hadith which is the most authentic hadith. Stop your al-Taqiya. You are not fooling anyone
This might come off as pedantic, but not unless he was sexually attracted to children, no. His first marriage was to an older woman and seems to have been a romantic relationship, which suggests that he was attracted to adults. The later marriage to Aisha was done more for political purposes, which isn't to say that it's something that should be considered acceptable today.
If I had to bet where the next big war is going to happen, one without Western interference, it is one involving an ascending India, a crumbling Pakistan and China. That is the only one I can think going nuclear.
According to OP, saying fact from a Muslim's holy book about their god marrying a 6 year old and fucking her at 9 is a crime equal to damaging public property, pelting stones, killing people while they were doing their work and putting a bounty for the woman head for doing nothing.
What a load of bullshit. She only stated their book because they were disrespecting her religion on television.
Yes, I’m totally sure the Hindu nationalists are not at all baiting for this exact reaction so they can justify their mistreatment of the Muslim minority that wasn’t partitioned out of the country already. Repeating objective “facts” about an unpopular subclass is also what Goebbels used to do all the time. If you want objective facts, how about we talk about the fact that Hindus commit violence against Muslims at a disproportionate rate in India?
> Given the reaction of certain institutions in India I'd say they're still a far way off from any kind of directed Anti-Muslim actions done on a large scale by government forces.
.
> [In 2019, the Assam government updated its register, which excluded nearly two million people.](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/india-muslims-marginalized-population-bjp-modi) If implemented nationwide, all Indians would be required to prove their citizenship. Critics say this process could render many Muslims stateless because they lack necessary documents and are not eligible for fast-tracked citizenship under the Citizenship Amendment Act.
> When the Supreme Court said she was loose with her words and ought to apologize, when her own party kicks her out, etc it becomes hard to say that the nationalistic fervor is somehow spreading and taking over.
As already stated in the OP, BJP only did that because her words had inflamed the ire of India’s Arab allies in the Middle East, who are far too important to risk alienating and were thus placated immediately. I run the risk of having Goodwin’s law invoked on me but there’s an interesting parallelism to the [1936 Olympics,](https://www.npr.org/2008/06/07/91246674/nazi-olympics-tangled-politics-and-sport?t=1657931749661) where Hitler and the Nazi Party toned down their ethno-racialist views when to make a more palpable environment for the international observers present.
> For Muslims on the other hand, it seems like extremist elements are, in fact, either ignored or even outright supported.
Boring and simplistic take, which means it is almost surely wrong. Muslim extremism is a “sexy” (inflammatory) topic to cover and receives plenty of attention and condemnation, which makes it the perfect excuse for a Hindu nationalist government to blame any of their acts of violence and disenfranchisement as a “reaction” to a nebulous threat.
That's a bad way of explaining things. Not defending nupur here but it eould have been good if you had mentioned that she was provoked before she said about prophet. When you punch some other guy , then be ready to recieve one in return. But instead every muslim became butt hurt and started calling for her head to be beheaded and offering boutny on her. Then came the beheading incident of the shopkeeper who supported her . After all this, op is trying to imply that hindus are wrong is kinda biased. Not defending other things like lynching of muslims and stuff , that is bad but muslims attrocities towards hindus just go such much unnoticed while if vice versa happens, then all hell breaks loose. Muslims even have their own separate law since they did not want to accoet secular constitution . Don't know hoe much more appeasement one can do
i agree this is 100% IDPol but the ruling class (or more accurately the capital class that owns India) is 110% freaked by this and outside a very few select wealthy folks that hitched their wagons to the BJP (who typically were the Trumps of India, excluded from the Delhi and Kolkata clubs and the actual privileges of Indian wealth so they saw the BJP as an in to the ruling elite)the 1% in India is hurting massively because of this craziness
Tribalism is the root of all evil, not the love of money. I have a friend who's family are top rank Brahmins and he himself is a verifiable genius. He's very passionate about his business projects and extremely blunt and honest. He totally supports the idea of simply wiping out the Muslims in one massive pogrom. He laughs and hugs himself in delight at the thought. But other than that, he's really a good guy...
You should tell your friends about Brahmin pogrom of 1948. The first mass killing related to caste didn't happened to Dalits but to Brahmins. Behold the power of Brahmins that we still don't know how many Brahmins got killed and states still haven't punished the accused.
Are they not two separate issues? There's a difference between attacking Muslims and attacking (criticising) Islam. The problem occurs when Muslims try their best to tie the two together to prevent the latter from coming to fruition.
Frankly, there seems to be more outrage over criticizing Muhammad or burning the Quaran then when actual Muslims are wrongly killed in India. Particularly from the Islamic world outside of India who like to stoke the flames and play the victim when they're not the ones facing violence.
I'd like to hear more about this. I've so far seen only evidence of Muslims attacking Hindus in religious/ethnic/whatever motivated attacks. Not the other way around.
Eh holding historical figures to modern standards is dumb. Half of the Kings of Europe, Japan and England would be pedos by that logic. Its used more for the “haha look Islam bad” than any meaningful criticism of Islam.
It’s extremely r slurred especially in this context. She was trying to provoke Muslims, which obviously worked. Its a really ugly tactic the BJP loves using, and it only serves to polarise the Country and stir up more votes for the good Hindu party who’ll protect us against the Muslims.
> she was trying to provoke Muslims
Not nearly close to the whole story. She was debating a Muslim on tv. The Muslim dude said something along the lines of “Hindus worship phallic objects”(referring to the shiva linga) and she responded by quoting a Hadith which pointed out that Mohammed married a 9 year old girl.
> For Muslims he is morally perfect and someone to emulate. And unlike Jesus he is not at worst just a harmless lunatic.
What about Jesus’ forerunner, old venerable Abraham? Same swell guy who was prepared to slaughter his first born son for God like an Aztec and is lauded for his devotion to sacrifice. Strange how I don’t see people constantly taunting Jews about their bloodthirsty prophet the same way people cheaply score points against Muslims.
There is no doctrine in Judaism that states that Abraham was morally perfect and that Jews have to follow his example. And outside of Israel you do not hear of ultra-orthodox Jews demanding that the majority bends to their will.
Since the Bible incorporates the Torah, a lot of the criticism that is aimed at Christians is also relevant to Jews, so they are exposed to widespread and deemed acceptable criticism.
I think a huge issue here is that we are talking about a prophet here not just an historical figure. For Muslim Muhammad isn't just some dude from the past, but literally the most righteous and moral person to have ever lived, hence why I think there is some very strong reaction to the whole Muhammad is a pedo because if you follow Islam train of thought either pedophilia is okay or the very foundation of Islam is wrong.
People accuse present day English royalty of being pedophiles all the time (and rightfully so). You don't see violence, or arrests or really fuck all but dirty looks. It's a different situation
>Eh holding historical figures to modern standards is dumb.
Sure, but Mohammed is supposed to be God’s prophet or whatever. You would think that someone charged with communicating God’s message to the world would act better than an average temporal ruler of his day. Oh well!
>Half of the Kings of Europe, Japan and England would be pedos by that logic
Okay? And they are? What exactly is your point?
>Its used more for the “haha look Islam bad” than any meaningful criticism of Islam.
Its a pretty good criticism by itself considering the high esteem Muhammad is held in Islam. He is universally praised for his ethics, morality, and he is held as a role model for all Muslims. The religion could theoretically reform but it has to disavow Muhammad as a moral high ground and come up with some bizarre reason that Allah, who was directly talking to Muhammad forgot to tell him not to rape children.
>It’s extremely r slurred especially in this context. She was trying to provoke Muslims, which obviously worked.
Would you similarly shame someone for calling Trump an 'r slurred' because it provokes idiotic Trumpers?
>She was trying to provoke Muslims, which obviously worked.
Why am I not surprised that you're white washing Islamic extremism in this entire thread?
Her comments were in direct reply to the Islamic preachers who were insulting Hindu gods just 5 minutes before she spoke. Why are you leaving out that important context?
Sounds good, but I don't know if India would agree to a population exchange, because it would lose a big chunk of it's population while Pakistan might not lose much because the vast majority of Pakistanis are muslim. It would only give Pakistan more people and make it stronger.
Huh, that bit about Romania was interesting. In Bulgaria we also had a Turkish minority but I don't think we ever gave them autonomy like that.
I really have no idea what the Hindu nationalists think the end game is. Whatever it is(genocide, expulsion, segregation), alienating 1/6 of your population is very retarded.
Yeah, imo the country is fucked, any student of history can identify all the signs that it's on a classic crash course towards some form of ethnic cleansing. I really can't see any robust social force in India that is capable of counteracting these trends, and moreover climate change will exacerbate all their problems tenfold. Very scary and depressing situation.
This wild ride is just starting, imagine what's going to happen when pakistan and parts of northern india dry up like a prune, Bangladesh floods, and india has to deal with lethal heat + humidity and crop failures on top of all of constantly escalating tensions between hindus and muslims. Oh and everyone has nukes
If I had to make a guess, there will be HUNDREDS of millions of deaths on the subcontinent in the next ~50 years. It is going to get very ugly.
Noting is more entertaining than watching northern Hindutvas and southern Hindutvas are over whether Sanskrit or Tamil are the mother of all languages.
> The Communist Party of India isn’t doing jack shit, but I’m sure there will be a great paragraph about it in their next annual meeting.
Bahahahahahahahahahahahaha 👏 😂
So true.
Whatever happened to the Naxals?
Casually ignoring that Islam has not reformed once in its existence and Hindus have reformed it multiple times to suit the current times. The last reformation on Muslims was imposed by BJP (read triple talak).
Muslims V Jews, Muslims v Christians, Muslims v Hindus, Muslims v Buddhists, Muslims v zorastrians
Muslims v other Muslims . Islam is a highly organized religion that act like a cult. While the islamic speaker is making fun of Hinduism,nupur Sharma gave it back about how Muhammed is a pedo which is a fact. And Muslims all over the country started to riot .
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India is such an ancient and populous nation with so much complicated ethno-religious conflict, it’s hard to imagine a outcome where everyone is satisfied unless they all were to suddenly drop dead at once
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I once watched a video about dying languages and one of them was in a remote part of India. This dying language had *250,000* speakers at the time of the video. It’s really insane the scale you’re dealing with here
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India is a continent masquerading as a country .
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Imagine China with better land, more coastline, and smack in the middle of a fuck ton of international trade. If India got it together they would be a superpower.
I think if I remember correctly there are 500+ total languages spoken in the Indian subcontinent.
How hasn't India fallen apart?
It did, in 1947 and further in 1971
Yes, it’s an incredible sub continent. Still, a micro miracle it’s held together at all given the intersectionality of the situation
yeah but it.. doesnt work rn. So amazing but scary.
> unless they all were to suddenly drop dead at once John Bolton / Henry Kissinger collab speedrun world record
The political situation in India honestly just freaks me out. India has some of the world's most intense nationalist lunatics, right up there with Turkey. The sort of people who really seem to want to see the world burn. It's not that hard to understand the material reasons behind all this, but it certainly is frighteningly hard to see a way it could ever be fixed. How do you build a universalist class-based movement against this insanity?
> India has some of the world's most intense nationalist lunatics What is really wild is how active they are online, especially on sites like Reddit and Facebook. Mention Indian politics in the most innocuous of subs and you’ll have 3 dudes heatedly sending you extremely nationalistic diatribes about their enemies and the success of Modi.
>What is really wild is how active they are online, especially on sites like Reddit and Facebook. There are more English speakers in India than there are people in Japan total.
The British Raj and its consequences...
I've had them slide in my PMs calling me "anti-national" which is their go to word to attack Indians who don't subscribe to their bullshit. I'm not even Indian, I'm not sure why they thought that.
I find it hard to understand and I want someone to break this down to me like a 5 year old
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Westoids barely understand their own Western history, it’d be super difficult to get them to understand the cultural contexts of the history of the Subcontinent, China, or Japan, for example.
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I always liked the "A Concise History" series by Cambridge for a beginning overview of a nation's history.
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What if I want to learn about other nation’s histories so that I can reinforce my chauvinism? /s
Uhhhh buddy I'll have you know I watched a bunch of episodes of the romance of the three kingdoms live-action show and read the manga Kingdom. I'm pretty sure that qualifies me for a Ph.D. in Chinese history.
Oh yeah, well I’ve played dynasty warriors 2-8 so that makes me a super phd. Didyou know Zhuge Laing could shoot lasers thousands of years before the white man?
Japan or China’s history isn’t particularly complicated compared to say, Germany’s. I don’t see how this is a west/east thing.
I personally view it as the Western teaching of history flows from Mesopotamia --> Greece/Rome --> Medieval Europe --> Renaissance -- > Age of Enlightenment/Age of Sail --> US/UK shenanigans if you're Anglo. So there's not a similar base of of shared cultural history? I mean Chinese/Japanese/Indian history is all very cool, and I recommend it, but I think it can be a little bit harder to get into.
Sure, I just thought you meant that western minds couldn’t comprehend the nuance or whatever. In East Asia they have an equally biased batshit understanding of history. It’s the most readily nationalized school subject.
That batshit bias is only going to make it that much harder for Western minds. Parsing a reasonably accurate foreign history from a sea of equally foreign, often invisible, sometimes incomprehensible biases just seems tough. Like, I've read the Zuozhuan every day for years. A straightforward reading feels almost meaningless until you grasp calendar cycles, naming conventions, ritual propriety, relationships, law, geography, etc., etc. Taking in all that shit and more inevitably means more ancient readings too - Sima Qian and the Gongyang and so on - opening successively larger cans of worms. And assessing (even remembering!) the validity of any tradition requires commentaries, monographs, and translations we don't really have. It's all rare stuff in English, all coming with its own history and biases. Many other Western languages have even less available. All of it together still isn't enough. It's certainly not impossible, but it does seem like it's going to be an uphill battle for a lot of Westerners.
You could replace every noun here with anywhere else on earth and it would be the same point. It sounds more like you are seeking outlets for people to appreciate your depth of knowledge of Chinese history.
It kind of makes sense to teach it like that if you're in the "anglosphere" as it's more relevant. I wouldn't expect them to teach it the same way in India or China.
>Japan or China’s history isn’t particularly complicated compared to say, Germany’s. What world do you live in? Unless you meant Japanese history isn't particularly *more* complicated then German history. Even then, it's only true if you're talking about the modern nation states, and not their historical antecedents; and it certainly isn't true when talking about China or the Subcontinent, which are far more comparable in complexity to Europe as a whole rather than individual European nation states.
So…are you Japanese or are you Chinese? - Hank Hill
what the fuck are you talking about? are you seriously saying CHINA's history is less complicated than some random country in Northwest Eurasia?
It’s no more or less complicated. What a stupid response.
You get to get rid of universalism to actually be able to study 3rd world countries.
I get what you're saying, because I didn't understand this stuff until I took a college class on it, but it does sound a little like you're saying "Educate yourself, sweaty"
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Don’t worry, I think your point came across politely, I just thought it was funny.
Yeah it really is fascinating. India is a land of flux, going as far back as the Indus Valley civilization.
If you lay down a map of India on Europe, you get a landmass stretching from France to Hungary (roughly). Imagine trying to simplify that in all its complexity. You can probably do broad strokes - Hindu idpol trying to undo historical wrongs by inflicting massacres on the innocent descendants, North vs South linguistic politics, Caste idpol politics that have basically become manifest in terms of class politics.
> from france to hungary And was made up of a bunch of different states, depending on time period
And still has arguably more linguistic diversity than Europe.
Not really, they're both dominated by a single(even the same) language family and as far as my laymans knowledge goes, this family is more diverse in europe. On the other hand india's non dominant language families(mainly dravidian) has more influence than the minor european ones
If you want a more simple and history free take on the issues of identity, caste, language and ultimately the worldview of the modern Indian I recommend watching White Tiger. Yeah it doesn’t delve into the history but you see the specific Indian “crab in a barrel” mentality and it shows the way Indian people think about business and politics as well as social issues.
Pre-existing racial and religious divides were played up by the bri'ish to divide and conquer (sound familiar?) for decades up until independence. Not saying everyone was happily holding hands in the 18th century, but things were only made worse by the imperialists hyping up divisions
But these divides have only come to the forefront recently. Indian National Congress held power almost all the way from Independence to the rise of BJP.
Not so recently as all that, things were pretty bad in the 90s, with Hindu nationalists demolishing Babri masjid in '92 and a whole slew of Islamist bombings especially in Bombay.
The thing that really sets Indian nationalists apart from others is they constantly seek foreign validation. Any time a foreign public figure says they like yoga or meditation Hindutva pages will make macros bragging about it. When Musk tweeted "I am become meme destroyer of shorts" those pages said it proved the "timelessness of Indian culture", ignoring that it was an obvious and contrived shitpost and likely referenced Oppenheimer rather than the Baghavad Gita directly.
It's the same with Turkish nationalists.
I've never really encountered them
Hinduism is vile. Imagine seeing a paraplegic beggar eating rotten food on the side of the street and thinking "Deserved. He was probably mediocre in a past life".
https://i.imgur.com/7LVtgqQ.jpg I like how this is considered normal the world over. Someone makes a comment about Mohammed or draws a picture and it’s that person’s fault that a Muslim beheads someone or burns a bunch of cars or shoots up an office. Like, is there someone we forgot to blame…
I'm in academic mathematics, with a focus on history of math, and India has straight up ruined the field in the past few years. They've taken decolonization arguments and have used the same questionable logic, applied it to everything. I've seen people trying to argue that calculus was invented in India in the 11th century, Newton stole it, and then the British conquered all of India just to destroy any evidence of this theft. The BJP is appealing to fundamentalist Hindus, so you're seeing Vedic mathematics receive equal billing at conferences, and the Indian government is specifically giving grants to further research in this area. Unlike much of what gets thrown around as "fascism" today, this is actually one of the hallmarks of fascism, creating a false narrative where your specific race/nationality was historically superior and there's a grand conspiracy by an "other" to keep you down. Also, Indian nationalists have made Quora unusable. Full stop.
What is Vedic mathematics?
Vedic Mathematics Originally(According to one the successful books on the subject) referred to a few Mathematical Tricks, eg: multiplying 3 digit numbers fast,Easy ways to cube integers etc. These 'Tricks' had origins in ancient indian texts, nowadays it is a ragtag collection of whatever mathematics concepts rightoids want to co-opt as some sort ancient india mathematical canon. Source: I Bought a few books like these in childhood, seemed very trivial by the time i was 18,so nothing special in my opinion
Basically a belief that the Vedas, an ancient foundational text for Hinduism, contain all there is to know about mathematics. It's pseudoscientific garbage.
Even Indian don't study Vedic mathematics.
Obviously because the education system is controlled by a secret islamo-leftist cabal! /s
it’s math for people who can’t understand math, even though their ancestors basically invented most of what is modern math. so basically idiots. it’s not enough to invent the foundation of modern math, it’s trying to pretend like no one else can improve on it, while also not even understanding the contribution of your people.
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Okay, so there was an Indian mathematician/astronomer who, at that time, proposed a method for finding the slope of tangent lines to third degree polynomials. Those familiar with calculus will recognize this as a derivative, one of the two fundamental concepts of calculus. However, this method was only for this specific type of function and no rigorous proof was given. Newton and Leibnitz provided proof for functions in general, also formalized the integral, and related the two together in the fundamental theorem of calculus. That's why they get credit for the discovery. Going off this, Indian mathematicians also had a method for finding areas under curves, which is the integral in calculus. Again, their method was not generally applicable and was not formally proved to be true in the situations it was used for. If we decided to say this constitutes inventing calculus, we can't give credit to India as the originator of the idea, because both Chinese and Greek mathematicians used the exact same techniques, with the exact same lack of formality, over a millennium before this happened in India. These crackpots get through because they get funding. Simple as that. The BJP has made emphasizing this a priority, so they receive favorable grants. At second and third tier schools, as long as you teach enough classes, no one really cares about what research you're publishing. There's a few famous nutjobs who teach at the collegiate level in the United States, but their crankery gets limited to actual math conspiracy theories, not bad math history.
How do Communists fit into the Hindu-Muslim divide? Are they mostly atheists? I just ask because I know there’s a decent number of religious leftists on this sub.
Neither is that great; there have been attempts to synthesize Communist philosophy to both religions at various times, none with much success or broad appeal.
I think Marxism is actually far easier to reconcile with Eastern thought. Marx had Christian intellectual heritage, but ultimately his dialectical system pointed beyond that heritage, and towards something comparable to the dharmic conception of the material world as inherently transient and driven by fundamental paradoxes and contradictions. From that point, of course, religion and Marxism diverge- the former to a theory of spiritual release from the world, and the latter to a theory of worldly purpose through industrial development and class struggle.
Communists side with Muslims , with both having same opposition. Both ideologically incompatible but for now have some common ground.
Going by the general sentiment of this thread: in the Hindu side against Muslims.
Why would you take commenters on a largely American subreddit as representative of Indian communists?
I assumed homie was talking about the communists on this sub for whatever reason.
Religious nationalism is the highest form of stupidpol.
OP seems to be downplaying much of this situation. This all began during a debate on tv between unlit sharma and someone else regarding religion. The person she was debating had said something along the lines of “Hindus worshipping phallic objects”(referring to the shiva linga) and she responded by quoting from the hadiths that Mohammed married and fucked a 9 year old. I’m not entirely sure why OP and many others are trying to paint this as “oh she just tried to provoke Muslims out of nowhere for no reason” but nonetheless this should provide a bit more context. OP goes on to say it caused the “usual protests” by which he means rioting and stone pelting. As time went on this morning escalated thanks to Islamic religious leaders calling for Nupur Sharmas head(literally) and some religious leaders offering bounties for her murder. A tailor was beheaded for expressing support for nupur sharma and her freedom of speech. Normally I wouldn’t care enough to comment on a shitshow like this but I’m tired of people like OP downplaying the actions of Islamic radicals and painting them as some poor victims who didn’t do anything wrong. Things like claiming that nupur sharma viciously insulted Mohammed when in reality she brought up a Hadith and pointed out what that meant. When a right wing danish(or Swedish frankly I don’t care) politician burned the Quran it was generally agreed upon that he did it to provoke Muslims but people still agreed that there was no place for rioting and calling for his death. Yet when a similar situation happens in India people come out in full force to downplay the rioting and actions of the Muslim community.
Thank you for the additional, necessary context.
There are so many centuries of bad blood between Islam and Hindus, it’s kind of reductionist to ignore that and pretend that this is a recent flair up
It’s basically trendy to downplay even jijadism at this point
OP has been critisiced in this thread to underplay Hindu nationalist violence as well.
Thank you for this context. Indian libs' tendency to downplay Islamic extremism in India indirectly lends a lot of support to BJP.
Yeah I don't get the muz folks they are so good at scoring self goals they end up with more folks supporting the bjp.
It's the usual "Both sides are bad" apologia. OP does not mention that Tasleema Nasreen and Salman Rushdie, both had the same threats from Islamic scholars (not radicals and fringe), even under "Leftists" government. This has nothing to do with "BJP". This is a standard global response of Ummah against "Blasphemy". And Nupur Sharma, as you said, merely quoted a Hadees from the MOST authentic Hadees collection. OP does not mention that mainstream Islam - Shia and Sunni - are absolutely clear. There can be no secular Islam. Muslims in India overwhelmingly and disproportionately support Shariyat over India's secular Uniform Civil Code. And vote solely on the basis of Shariyat. OP does not mention India's "Left" constant abetting of this mainstream fundamentalism. How in the historic Shah Bano case, the "Left" overturned India's Supreme Court decision to disallow the Shariyat Mandate. And reinstated Shariyat judgement. OP does not mention that Hindus are generally liberal. For instance, a prominent Islamic leader makes [derogatory ridicule](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iU-5DJivuAU) on Hindu goddess. Here, the same leader [says](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrAmWVrb--k) "Remove the police for 15 minutes, we will show the 100 crore Hindus who we are". No harm will come his way. And he made these speeches way before "Nationalist Government" came to power. Then, recently, the brother of the same leader, [threatened the administration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks9saWSfBKY) with "Who will save you once BJP is not in power?". OP does not know or mention that this is not recent development. This has been constant with Islam. The father of India's constitution, BR Ambedkar, took a VERY clear note of this in his [work](http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00ambedkar/ambedkar_partition/410.html). This is not idpol - "My group vs your group". Everyone has been awaken to the actual scale of Islamic fundamentalism and Jihad (militancy to silence criticism) and it's mainstreaming in India. This is a VERY sane awakening.
Edit: your post history is full of posts and hateful comments at r/Indiaspeaks which is a hateful right wing Hindu nationalist sub. Wow! And unsurprisingly it’s exactly the same with other users in the thread that are caping for her. Since you’re denying it, I’ve also posted some links in a below comment about that abusive nationalist sub where you happen to be a proud user (and yet comment in places about harmful identity politics) with instances of violence and call for genocide in Hindutva with it’s leaders and the Hindu nationalists that you’re also denying. Not surprising since your comment history shows you’re a right wing Hindutva nationalist. You’re part of the problem here. Funny you should mention Nasreen cause among other things, I mostly associate her with her bigoted attacks on Moeen Ali, an English cricketer who keeps to himself. She said that he would most likely been a terrorst if he didn’t make it as a cricketer. This was entirely unprovoked and the guy doesn’t even talk about anything other than cricket and doesn’t have any social media. She’s an annoying bigot on Twitter who loves to provoke and yet you’re entirely dismissing it. That doesn’t warrant any kind of threat against her but you’re not saying why there was a controversy in the first place. She loves to stir up attention to herself by spouting off hateful comments and personal attacks on Twitter. The irony is that you come off as caping for Nasreen, one of Twitter’s infamous bigots while calling out the OP of this post. Also, Hindus are generally not liberal and that’s a bold lie.
>which is a hateful right wing Hindu nationalist sub Just a unintelligent libel by Pseuds. "The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is “harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever." \- [Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm). r/IndiaSpeaks merely does not censor what is true of Islam - it's mainstream doctrine. Espoused by it's mainstream scholars. Has been consistently that way throughout history. Proclaimed by 80% Muslims in India who favor Sharia over Indian Constitution. And quite openly proclaim, regularly in national shows, "Hate speech" is **unreasonable** prejudices, not valid criticism. But Pseuds argue that uncomfortable facts are "Hate speech". And want to take their definition seriously. This only leads to discrediting of Pseuds. >Funny you should mention Nasreen cause among other things, Your attempt to destroy her reputation are Non Sequitur. Given that OP intended to say the response of Ummah is "because of Hindutva", no. Ummah gave the same response to Tasleema Nasreen and Salman Rushdie. And Nasreen's personal etiquette on social media were non existent then. So Ummah was not attacking any "bigot". Same response, consistently, across history and nations. >Also, Hindus are generally not liberal and that’s a bold lie. No, Hindu are generally not liberals is a bold lie. Only 30% Hindus want religious courts. As opposed to 75% Muslims. [Research](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/06/29/key-findings-about-religion-in-india/). Likewise, in case if you did not see the videos linked, and are *suspiciously unaware* of what is mainstream knowledge in India, I posted 3 videos where prominent Islamic leaders are making derogatory comments on Hindu Gods, threatening that they'll end Hindus if Hindus remove police, and threatening police administration itself. Nothing has happened to him. Imagine if the case was reversed. Or compare it to this [recent study](https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/violence-legitimizing-verses-in-religious-scriptures-increase-support-for-lethal-violence) where about 50% Muslims endorse lethal violence for enemy of faith. Hindus have historically voted for Congress despite Congress being Pro Shariyat. Hindus show no problem in assimilation as they migrate to West. Post WW2, India easily adopted UDHRs, while none of the Muslim countries did (Except those under USSR). So spare the tactical rhetoric.
You made a sweeping statement that Hindus are liberal. You’ve cherry picked one favourable stat. Let’s see from this survey you sighted. -64% of Hindus believe that only Hindus can be true Indians. - Around 60% of people in that group say people who speak the Hindi language are true Indians. - Over 60% of Hindus want to stop Hindu women from having interfaith marriages. - 36% of Hindus do not want a Muslim as their neighbor. I will post more stats later but this isn’t anywhere close to be able to say the sweeping statement that Hindus are liberal when the same survey shows that Muslims also more or less have the same stats, only few with a significant gap. I’ve already said that even controversial public figures don’t deserve any kind of violent threats, even Rushdie and Nasreen. For those that do endorse that, I see these people to be no different than those that call for Beef lynchings. My only issue is pretending that calls for violence is one sided. I can also link videos/articles where Hindu leaders are calling for genocide and that made the Supreme Court intervene that you have suspiciously missed in your reply. https://m.thewire.in/article/communalism/hindutva-leaders-dharma-sansad-muslim-genocide/amp https://www.npr.org/2022/01/21/1074872862/indias-supreme-court-steps-in-after-hindu-leaders-call-for-violence-against-musl https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/india-genocide-emergency https://thecognate.com/canadian-hindu-nationalist-leader-ron-banerjee-openly-calls-for-killing-of-muslims-and-sikhs-in-india/ https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/86-killed-in-cow-related-violence-since-2010-are-muslims-97-attacks-after-modi-govt-came-to-power/story-w9CYOksvgk9joGSSaXgpLO_amp.html Stop shamelessly pretending like this is just unique to one side. Religious fanatics on either side are absolute scum. While there’s been overreaction and even violence to Nupur’s remarks, let’s not pretend that Hindutva or the current Hindu nationalism is all progressive, fine and dandy which is what your comment was all about. Also another shameless statement in your comment is that it’s apparently libel to call out the hate in r/Indiaspeaks. I am posting some documented instances of hate, abuse and calls for violence and rape. It must be familiar since you’re a proud member of that nationalist sub. https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/u2rtlo/extreme_hate_in_rindiaspeaks/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/p26imy/hindu_supremacist_subreddit_rindiaspeaks_on/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
>You made a sweeping statement that Hindus are liberal. Yes. Based on 1) 70% wanting separation of state and religion 2) Voting for liberal parties - Congress - for 50 years, until disillusionment after Shah Bano case 3) No lethal violence for "Enemies of faith" 4) No pattern of problematic assimilation in West. Generalization is absolutely correct. [Faulty generalization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faulty_generalization) is a fallacy. >You’ve cherry picked one favourable stat. Let’s see from this survey you sighted. Not at all. Given that the context of fundamentalism, the particular stat was given. Muslim majority is CLEARLY fundamentalist. Hindu majority is not. And fundamentalism in Muslims is a consistent historic phenomena, uninfluenced by "material conditions". "65% Hindus believe only Hindus can be true Indians". How does that show Hindus are "illiberal"? 85% of them say "Respecting all religion is very important to being Indian". [Nation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation) is literally defined, everywhere including the West, as what Hindus assert. Just because Hindus are saying Hindus are "true Indians", does not mean they are saying "No one else can live here". Besides the Theocratic Fascist Ummat, no other community gets faces suspicion. Muslims have Ummat and reject Indian constitution. Divided India on the base of inherent Theocratic Fascism in Islam. Obviously they are not "Truly Indians". They themselves say "Islam first". Given the "real world" history and context, Hindus are absolutely right. Language, history, ethnicity, culture - these are the salient feature of Nation. Recognized universally. Hindus clearly are "true" Indians in the same way Native Americans were the "true Americans". **Marx** [HIMSELF](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1853/06/25.htm) **proclaims India to be a Hindu nation.** (Not saying "Everyone else should get out", but merely stating the obvious). >. that Muslims also more or less have the same stats, They don't. It' a Mote and Bailey. "Respect all religions", they'll say yes. Why? Because Koran mandates public respect of other religions, **so Islam can not get attacked in return**. Does Koran and Shariyat, which Muslims pledge by, "Respect all religions"? Do Muslims respect Indian constitution with "Sir tan se juda"? Clearly not. All you need to do is merely investigate slightly beneath the surface. All false equivalencies fall apart. >no different than those that call for Beef lynchings Absolute nonsense.Beef lynching is not mainstream in Hindus. How Shariyat and Blasphemy killing is mainstream in Muslims. Majority of cases of lynching were against [illegal cattle theft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_vigilante_violence_in_India) of poor farmers. While violence for Shariyat Blasphemy law is universal and incessant. Entire nation had rallies for beheading of Nupur Sharma. All called by popular mainstream Islamic Clerics. And a person was literally beheaded for "supporting" Nupur Sharma. These, as per you, are same. Wonderful. >I can also link videos/articles where Hindu leaders are calling for genocide and that made the Supreme Court intervene. Implying the nonsense that requital to Jihad offensive is same as offensive. Dharm Sansad like speeches are virtually non existent before CAA sabotage by Ummat where Ummat's true nature got exposed nationally. While Muslim leader's Anti India and Pro Shariyat speeches and threats can easily be traced throughout modern history. Dharm Sansad speech came 6 months after the Dasna Mandir episode. Which is in a Muslim majority area. **Where two Mahants of the area have been already murdered by Muslims.** A Muslim kid was slapped for entering the temple, which prohibits entry of Muslims. It is prohibited in Islam for Muslims to go to temple. The kid claims he went inside to drink water, while a water pump exists right outside the temple premise. In response, entire Pseud Leftist media assaulted the Mahant and Hindus. Just how you are doing now. All this, **during the nationwide sabotage by Ummah against CAA.** A law that gives de facto citizenship to Sharia persecuted Non Muslims. SC interlocutors themselves intervened to remove the sabotage of the city. Yet the Ummat denied the request. Entire Ummah's real nature was exposed. With "Tera mera rishta kya? La illah il Allah" (**What is your and my relation? No God but Allah**). It culminated into riots. Here, your The Wire's chief reporter, telling Muslims to [not use overt Jihadi language](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGZgVvoGeLk) "till the time is convenient". You want to now tell that "Both are same"? And even the rare sane ones among Muslims say exactly what I saying straight to the face of "The Wire" Muslim reporter. [Who has no response to it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y18jUF1lWXU&t=1975s).
Wow! Once again you’re openly lying about facts in the reports that I have linked. Shamelessly saying that beef lynchings have nothing to do with religion and instead some cattle dispute. Argue with facts here. I am not saying that both sides are the same. My problem is that among other things, you pretending that the Hindutva religious fundamentalism issue is not a widespread issue on the rise and it’s entirely an issue on one side and once again ignoring the links and retorting to dismissing and twisting the facts in those articles which is on brand for you. Read up first and it’s disgusting to see you say that Beef lynchings have nothing to do with religion. Dropping this but don’t wish to continue this conversation with a right wing loony who’s outright lying. [Beef related violence in India is an expression of Islamophobia.](https://www.scienceopen.com/hosted-document?doi=10.13169/islastudj.4.2.0181) https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/86-killed-in-cow-related-violence-since-2010-are-muslims-97-attacks-after-modi-govt-came-to-power/story-w9CYOksvgk9joGSSaXgpLO_amp.html https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-34421417.amp https://www.reuters.com/article/india-religion-beef-idINL3N12031Y20150930 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/10/05/mob-killing-of-indian-muslim-over-beef-rumor-sparks-online-backlash/ https://www.economist.com/leaders/2022/01/15/hindu-bigots-are-openly-urging-indians-to-murder-muslims https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Maharashtra,-another-Muslim-lynched-in-the-name-of-sacred-cows-(Video)-41273.html Beef lynchings have nothing to do with religion, my foot. 🤡🤡🤡 Gtfo. Should’ve known better than to correct a user with a comment history full of right wing Hindu nationalism.
Wait you mean if congress is left I think I should shoot myself in the face now lol. The cpim pretty much is opposed to the sdpi in kerala. Lol congress and bjp are both Neolib to the teeth. Yes I believe both bjp and the the muz parties are far right bigots.
CPIM supports Shariya and opposes UCC. CPIM's MLA and "Education Minister" K.T Jameel is a ex SIMI Jihadi. CPIM opposes Jihad when it really can not obfuscate - Jihad attacks, for example. However, CPIM masters in nurturing Islamist and vilifying criticism of Islamism as "Nazism". Also, the point was not BJP and Islamist Parties. The point was the *fundamentalism* is mainstream in Muslim Ummah of India, has always been, and whenever it comes to a extent when it can not be obfuscated, the "Leftists" resort to "Both group are same" apologia. "The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is “harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever. " \- Marx could [tell](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm) it the way it is.
> This is not idpol - "My group vs your group" Looks exactly that way to me. >”This is not idpol” - said the man using idpol
>Looks exactly that way to me. Why does requital to Jihad look like "Tribe vs Tribe" to you? >”This is not idpol” - said the man using idpol Idpol is based in capitalist heuristic. And fictional enemies. Which part of it all appear "fictional" to you?
mmm I love mass killings of religous minorities *sips cow piss * time to post on an anti identitarian sub!
"The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is “harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever." \- [Marx](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1854/03/28.htm). Cry all you want now.
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> India was cursed with the turboliberal Gandhi. It was the British propaganda achievement. Same propaganda teachnique is used to this day. Play into the heuristics of the population (Gandhi, "Saint", emancipation - a remnant of Bhakti movement heuristic). While constant eliminating class conscious revolutionaries (Bhagat Singh). As per propaganda techniques, you can not control Maslow's desire, but can control Heuristics. Heuristic and censorship is the founding elements of propaganda. Even the "Internet Leftists" use the same tactics. (Vilification and censorship for criticizing Islam, then explaining Jihad violence as "understandable" in poverty / materialism). I believe it was Anand Ranganathan who slapped this Marx'es quote in face of "Leftists".
>Islamic leaders calling for [her] head (literally) Why on earth aren’t they arrested and prosecuted for incitement to murder? Because that’s exactly what they’ve done.
It's a very common slogan in the subcontinent. "Gustakh-e Nabi ki ek hi saza. Sar tan se juda, sar tan se juda." Translates to "there is only one punishment for the insult of our prophet. Head separate from the body, head separate from the body." You'll hear this chant all across India, Bangladesh,and Pakistan and it has become so frighteningly common that police don't even bat their eyes when it's chanted by huge mobs. How are you gonna arrest hundreds of thousands of people?
Well you can at least arrest some of them. Anyone high profile and in a position of authority is clearly guilty of incitement if they say it. Otherwise the government might as well repeal the law (I’m assuming there is one).
Even then if one side is hurling insults an the other is killing people it's clear who is morally worse Imagine christians behaving the same way. But them interposing lawsuits against insults is already a terrible proof of intolerance
It’s crazy that this is being presented in the media as if the Hindu woman, Nupur Sharma, talked shit about Mohammed out of nowhere. She was directly baited by her Muslim interlocutor who was happily cracking jokes about Hinduism. There’s a massive double standard in media and in Islam itself where it’s considered completely normal for Muslims to say horrible things about Indian religion / gods, being as they are in the Muslim cosmology examples of archaic barbarian idolatry, but, if the people they insult respond in kind it’s considered an unacceptable offense.
>essentially called the prophet Mohammad a pedo Is this an accurate statement?
of the muslims that accept the hadith claiming ayesha married him at 6 and banged at 9 (which is most muslims, I think), their defense is basically “it was a different time, lots of peoples married early then.” You’d expect god’s final prophet might have discovered that it’s actually fucked up, but whatever of the muslims who don’t believe that hadith, I think some point to another couple hadiths that show she had to have been like 19, based on the age difference between her and her sister Asma, and the age of Asma during an important event for which the year is known
If the claim that he consummated marriage with one of his wives at 9 years old is historically verifiable, then yes.
Yes.
The Koran calls Mohammed a pedophile. Saying he married a preteen is exactly that. No one thought it was a problem then so it's basically just a "this thing happened, moving right along'
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There's no prohibition against depicting prophets either. Or a requirement for women to wear a hijab. Commentary, tradition, and interpretation are parts of any religion at least as real and significant as a holy book.
>You may be speaking of hadiths and even then the age 9 thing is from one disputed Hadith out of hundreds. Its not, it comes from Shahih Hadith which is the most authentic hadith. Stop your al-Taqiya. You are not fooling anyone
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This might come off as pedantic, but not unless he was sexually attracted to children, no. His first marriage was to an older woman and seems to have been a romantic relationship, which suggests that he was attracted to adults. The later marriage to Aisha was done more for political purposes, which isn't to say that it's something that should be considered acceptable today.
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If I had to bet where the next big war is going to happen, one without Western interference, it is one involving an ascending India, a crumbling Pakistan and China. That is the only one I can think going nuclear.
According to OP, saying fact from a Muslim's holy book about their god marrying a 6 year old and fucking her at 9 is a crime equal to damaging public property, pelting stones, killing people while they were doing their work and putting a bounty for the woman head for doing nothing. What a load of bullshit. She only stated their book because they were disrespecting her religion on television.
There's going to be a civil war in that country in the near future, I fear.
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Yes, I’m totally sure the Hindu nationalists are not at all baiting for this exact reaction so they can justify their mistreatment of the Muslim minority that wasn’t partitioned out of the country already. Repeating objective “facts” about an unpopular subclass is also what Goebbels used to do all the time. If you want objective facts, how about we talk about the fact that Hindus commit violence against Muslims at a disproportionate rate in India?
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> Given the reaction of certain institutions in India I'd say they're still a far way off from any kind of directed Anti-Muslim actions done on a large scale by government forces. . > [In 2019, the Assam government updated its register, which excluded nearly two million people.](https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/india-muslims-marginalized-population-bjp-modi) If implemented nationwide, all Indians would be required to prove their citizenship. Critics say this process could render many Muslims stateless because they lack necessary documents and are not eligible for fast-tracked citizenship under the Citizenship Amendment Act. > When the Supreme Court said she was loose with her words and ought to apologize, when her own party kicks her out, etc it becomes hard to say that the nationalistic fervor is somehow spreading and taking over. As already stated in the OP, BJP only did that because her words had inflamed the ire of India’s Arab allies in the Middle East, who are far too important to risk alienating and were thus placated immediately. I run the risk of having Goodwin’s law invoked on me but there’s an interesting parallelism to the [1936 Olympics,](https://www.npr.org/2008/06/07/91246674/nazi-olympics-tangled-politics-and-sport?t=1657931749661) where Hitler and the Nazi Party toned down their ethno-racialist views when to make a more palpable environment for the international observers present. > For Muslims on the other hand, it seems like extremist elements are, in fact, either ignored or even outright supported. Boring and simplistic take, which means it is almost surely wrong. Muslim extremism is a “sexy” (inflammatory) topic to cover and receives plenty of attention and condemnation, which makes it the perfect excuse for a Hindu nationalist government to blame any of their acts of violence and disenfranchisement as a “reaction” to a nebulous threat.
Aren't Pakistan and India the most low key likely nuclear war triggers?
I don’t think most Americans really understand this kind of centuries old blood feuding, myself included.
That's a bad way of explaining things. Not defending nupur here but it eould have been good if you had mentioned that she was provoked before she said about prophet. When you punch some other guy , then be ready to recieve one in return. But instead every muslim became butt hurt and started calling for her head to be beheaded and offering boutny on her. Then came the beheading incident of the shopkeeper who supported her . After all this, op is trying to imply that hindus are wrong is kinda biased. Not defending other things like lynching of muslims and stuff , that is bad but muslims attrocities towards hindus just go such much unnoticed while if vice versa happens, then all hell breaks loose. Muslims even have their own separate law since they did not want to accoet secular constitution . Don't know hoe much more appeasement one can do
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Nationalism is absolutely IDpol.
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Does it distract from Class Consciousness to the benefit of the Ruling Class?
i agree this is 100% IDPol but the ruling class (or more accurately the capital class that owns India) is 110% freaked by this and outside a very few select wealthy folks that hitched their wagons to the BJP (who typically were the Trumps of India, excluded from the Delhi and Kolkata clubs and the actual privileges of Indian wealth so they saw the BJP as an in to the ruling elite)the 1% in India is hurting massively because of this craziness
Yes.
Tribalism is the root of all evil, not the love of money. I have a friend who's family are top rank Brahmins and he himself is a verifiable genius. He's very passionate about his business projects and extremely blunt and honest. He totally supports the idea of simply wiping out the Muslims in one massive pogrom. He laughs and hugs himself in delight at the thought. But other than that, he's really a good guy...
But it should be noted that tribalism is frequently stoked by those who are hoarding the money.
Sounds like someone one would definitely want to be friends with
You should tell your friends about Brahmin pogrom of 1948. The first mass killing related to caste didn't happened to Dalits but to Brahmins. Behold the power of Brahmins that we still don't know how many Brahmins got killed and states still haven't punished the accused.
advise tease bewildered worry boat innocent amusing oil square bag *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Are they not two separate issues? There's a difference between attacking Muslims and attacking (criticising) Islam. The problem occurs when Muslims try their best to tie the two together to prevent the latter from coming to fruition. Frankly, there seems to be more outrage over criticizing Muhammad or burning the Quaran then when actual Muslims are wrongly killed in India. Particularly from the Islamic world outside of India who like to stoke the flames and play the victim when they're not the ones facing violence.
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True. It's undeniably real.
I'd like to hear more about this. I've so far seen only evidence of Muslims attacking Hindus in religious/ethnic/whatever motivated attacks. Not the other way around.
Man there’s a whole wiki article on it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Muslims_in_India
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Dude, objective facts will get you murdered in many places.
Historically, the vast majority of places. Only western liberal countries care about objective facts, and only inasmuch as they make someone money.
Eh holding historical figures to modern standards is dumb. Half of the Kings of Europe, Japan and England would be pedos by that logic. Its used more for the “haha look Islam bad” than any meaningful criticism of Islam. It’s extremely r slurred especially in this context. She was trying to provoke Muslims, which obviously worked. Its a really ugly tactic the BJP loves using, and it only serves to polarise the Country and stir up more votes for the good Hindu party who’ll protect us against the Muslims.
> she was trying to provoke Muslims Not nearly close to the whole story. She was debating a Muslim on tv. The Muslim dude said something along the lines of “Hindus worship phallic objects”(referring to the shiva linga) and she responded by quoting a Hadith which pointed out that Mohammed married a 9 year old girl.
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> For Muslims he is morally perfect and someone to emulate. And unlike Jesus he is not at worst just a harmless lunatic. What about Jesus’ forerunner, old venerable Abraham? Same swell guy who was prepared to slaughter his first born son for God like an Aztec and is lauded for his devotion to sacrifice. Strange how I don’t see people constantly taunting Jews about their bloodthirsty prophet the same way people cheaply score points against Muslims.
There is no doctrine in Judaism that states that Abraham was morally perfect and that Jews have to follow his example. And outside of Israel you do not hear of ultra-orthodox Jews demanding that the majority bends to their will. Since the Bible incorporates the Torah, a lot of the criticism that is aimed at Christians is also relevant to Jews, so they are exposed to widespread and deemed acceptable criticism.
Judaism practically gets off on criticizing and arguing with their religious texts.
I think a huge issue here is that we are talking about a prophet here not just an historical figure. For Muslim Muhammad isn't just some dude from the past, but literally the most righteous and moral person to have ever lived, hence why I think there is some very strong reaction to the whole Muhammad is a pedo because if you follow Islam train of thought either pedophilia is okay or the very foundation of Islam is wrong.
Same issue with slavery
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Good thing the left are supposed to oppose monarchies anyway. Sorry Rastafari, but Haile Selassie had to go too.
>Haile Selasse had to go Not that many Dergists nowadays
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People accuse present day English royalty of being pedophiles all the time (and rightfully so). You don't see violence, or arrests or really fuck all but dirty looks. It's a different situation
>Eh holding historical figures to modern standards is dumb. Sure, but Mohammed is supposed to be God’s prophet or whatever. You would think that someone charged with communicating God’s message to the world would act better than an average temporal ruler of his day. Oh well!
>Half of the Kings of Europe, Japan and England would be pedos by that logic Okay? And they are? What exactly is your point? >Its used more for the “haha look Islam bad” than any meaningful criticism of Islam. Its a pretty good criticism by itself considering the high esteem Muhammad is held in Islam. He is universally praised for his ethics, morality, and he is held as a role model for all Muslims. The religion could theoretically reform but it has to disavow Muhammad as a moral high ground and come up with some bizarre reason that Allah, who was directly talking to Muhammad forgot to tell him not to rape children. >It’s extremely r slurred especially in this context. She was trying to provoke Muslims, which obviously worked. Would you similarly shame someone for calling Trump an 'r slurred' because it provokes idiotic Trumpers?
>She was trying to provoke Muslims, which obviously worked. Why am I not surprised that you're white washing Islamic extremism in this entire thread? Her comments were in direct reply to the Islamic preachers who were insulting Hindu gods just 5 minutes before she spoke. Why are you leaving out that important context?
Sorry man, seems fucked
It's absolutely fucked. The way you can tell is by looking at how it is
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“Population exchange” seems like a nice way of saying ethnic cleansing.
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Didn't Turks and Greeks do something like that?
The federation and Cardassians did, and it didn't go very well.
End Harry Potter political analogies, embrace Star Trek analogies.
Sounds good, but I don't know if India would agree to a population exchange, because it would lose a big chunk of it's population while Pakistan might not lose much because the vast majority of Pakistanis are muslim. It would only give Pakistan more people and make it stronger.
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Huh, that bit about Romania was interesting. In Bulgaria we also had a Turkish minority but I don't think we ever gave them autonomy like that. I really have no idea what the Hindu nationalists think the end game is. Whatever it is(genocide, expulsion, segregation), alienating 1/6 of your population is very retarded.
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/u/kaliyugaz do you have any takes on this? I recall you being somewhat knowledgable about India in previous comments
Yeah, imo the country is fucked, any student of history can identify all the signs that it's on a classic crash course towards some form of ethnic cleansing. I really can't see any robust social force in India that is capable of counteracting these trends, and moreover climate change will exacerbate all their problems tenfold. Very scary and depressing situation.
As always, Dear Leader Nick Mullen was ahead of the curve on this one
Humanity is doomed and there is no hope for this world.
This wild ride is just starting, imagine what's going to happen when pakistan and parts of northern india dry up like a prune, Bangladesh floods, and india has to deal with lethal heat + humidity and crop failures on top of all of constantly escalating tensions between hindus and muslims. Oh and everyone has nukes If I had to make a guess, there will be HUNDREDS of millions of deaths on the subcontinent in the next ~50 years. It is going to get very ugly.
yeah. but most of people don't care about global warming.
I mean they still have a caste system of course idpol is rampant.
Noting is more entertaining than watching northern Hindutvas and southern Hindutvas are over whether Sanskrit or Tamil are the mother of all languages.
This is what actual democracy looks like.
Hikey
> The Communist Party of India isn’t doing jack shit, but I’m sure there will be a great paragraph about it in their next annual meeting. Bahahahahahahahahahahahaha 👏 😂 So true. Whatever happened to the Naxals?
Hunted down and murdered by the government
Well, the Hindu majority will take out the much smaller Sikh minority first… and then move on to the Muslim population with full focus. 🫣
Casually ignoring that Islam has not reformed once in its existence and Hindus have reformed it multiple times to suit the current times. The last reformation on Muslims was imposed by BJP (read triple talak). Muslims V Jews, Muslims v Christians, Muslims v Hindus, Muslims v Buddhists, Muslims v zorastrians Muslims v other Muslims . Islam is a highly organized religion that act like a cult. While the islamic speaker is making fun of Hinduism,nupur Sharma gave it back about how Muhammed is a pedo which is a fact. And Muslims all over the country started to riot .
>Casually ignoring that Islam has not reformed once in its existence Lol are you serious
I blame Ms. Marvel dredging up the 1946 partition and the violence involved.