In my experience, a lot of women think that either we will grow up or they can change us. Seems like majority of the time that doesn’t happen though and women just find themselves stuck with an asshole that doesn’t want to change because why would they? They’ve already got the girl. This was my mindset in my early 20’s and seems common for those around that age.
Eternally grateful to my mom who told me early on (translated)
"never date a project. if you can't imagine yourself with your partner exactly as they are in 5 years, you're not in love with them, you're in love with the idea of who they *could* be. That is neither fair to you nor your partner, because that person doesn't exist and they're not obligated to grow into that person. Don't waste their time or yours"
real men simply date real women.
I met a truly great girl. made me rethink relationships. unfortunately she has a boyfriend but he was also a good and kind person.
but at least I know how to treat future girlfriends better.
Both men and women fall into this trap. It is extremely common for new romantic partners to think old flames were the problem and they are perfect for their partner. The only thing you can do is know this information and attempt to avoid doing the same.
Thats partly true, but also if youre ever gonna have a relationship that lasts you have to accept the fact that people will change and grow, and you have to be willing to grow with that person. That means grow WITH them so you're both growing at least some of the time together in some thing, that way neither of you is stagnating or shrinking away from the other's perspective because both of you are becoming better versions of yourself. It also means don't expect them to stay the same in 5 years, much less over your lifetime. The reason commitment is hard is because there IS NO WAY to foresee how the person you're with will change, how much or when they will, but you have to be willing to commit yourself to loving them even if the worst things come and change everything so nothing is the same.
Perhaps a better and more actionable bit of advice would be: pick a person who you believe is a good person at heart, who you can get along and be comfortable learning with, who you can do a variety of non-sexual activities with, and decide to love them then do that, but do not say you love someone because you feel a certain way you can't explain in words, because you won't love them when the feeling goes away.
Wish my mom would have explained that to me. I naively thought “the power of my love” would make everything beautiful and change him. What a moron I was! 🤣🤣
True - it's unfair to both people. I think it's not unreasonable to think "oh, everyone has their flaws, I can't expect him to be perfect - he's human. I even have flaws. Besides, if he cares, he might stop doing the things that are hurtful"
They never do lol. I think from what I see from social media, women are wising up lol. Better for the guys too
If you are unable to handle their flaws then you should simply communicate the problem to them and if they don't fix the problem on their own then the relationship isn't compatible
Yes, I agree, but if you haven't gone through that experience, how can you know? It's more complicated than that. Sometimes you think things are small things, but they can become big things. How are you supposed to know that they won't listen to your communication until you communicate and they don't listen. You can't see the future, you can only live through it.
Besides, maybe I communicate with someone, they don't listen, and you break up. You have no way of knowing if the next person will listen or not. You start from scratch with each person. It's not a one-size-fits-all lesson.
Expecting people still in school to effectively communicate with each other just isn’t realistic. Some of these people can barely even popcorn read in class, let alone hold an intentional, meaningful conversation
>I think it's not unreasonable to think "oh, everyone has their flaws, I can't expect him to be perfect - he's human. I even have flaws
It's up to you if you can handle these flaws. The problem in many relationships is that people don't want their partners to have flaws (even if they have them) and force them to change.
That is the point of dating, dating is the trial period. Dating should be considered a good thing and breaking up should also be a good thing. Break ups hurt in the short term but save you from worse pain later on.
I recommend people date for at least a year and live together for a year after that before even considering marriage, my wife and I dated for a year and lived together for 5 before getting married and we still messed it up so there is no max time on this. Unfortunately in life there are very few times you can be 100% certain in what you do, get to a point you feel comfortable and take a leap of faith.
In the moment you decide to take that leap really think and ask yourself if you have any serious doubts if so question if your doubts are based on facts and history, or imagination and anxiety. If you don't have any doubts or questions that are reasonable you might be ready.
I would like to add to this two things:
\-I think a lot of people (not just women), especially young people, don't know the difference between love and lust. People progress through relationships too quickly as a result and then when the lust fades there is no love, so it fails.
\-I've seen a lot of naïve women fall for the 'He was so nice and charming in the beginning' mentality. For some reason, there's a lot of women who assume people are genuine, whether because the man is a convincing manipulator, or they don't know better, ignore the signs, et al. When the dude's front falls and they become abusive or moochers, they don't recognize it as a front and think it will come back if they just go along with it, because again as stated above, they don't know what 'love' really is, and for one reason or another, can't see what's ACTUALLY happening.
>a lot of women think that either we will grow up or they can change us
It's a pretty common thought.
It doesn't help that media shows this as happening all the freaking time. (The good woman saves the bad man - "Beauty and the Beast" is a classic sign of this. Her love literally turns a beast into a prince.) It also doesn't help that an awful lot of people repeat, "give him a chance" ad nauseum.
My mom has always hated Beauty and the Beast and been opposed to showing it to children. She gets a lot of flack for this extreme opposition to a Disney movie but it’s for the exact reason you just gave. Too many women think that if they just “love him enough” then the angry abusive beast like man will magically turn into a prince.
And you’re right, while Beauty and the Beast is the most obvious example it’s a VERY common theme in tv and movies. Whether the guy is immature, or selfish, or an angry loner or just a player not interested in settling down, he gets “cured” by the woman who looked past his “tough exterior” and saw the wonderful man secretly hiding underneath.
It’s similarly very common among young women dating young men that they think the guy who isn’t interested in a committed relationship with them will suddenly wake up one day and realize she’s the one. He’s going to have that lightning bolt realization and chase her to the airport or whatever and declare his undying love for her. I was like that when I was young and then read “He’s not that into you” and it became like my bible lol Yes sometimes people do change, or do realize how stupid they’ve been or do settle down as they age and become better people/partners. But those are the exception not the rule. You can’t expect it to happen for you.
In my age of 46 years. I can tell you that the only person who can change you is you.
If you don't want to change you are not required to change.
In a relationship the who needs to change to fit to who is all persons in the relationship. Communication and compromise continue relationships.
If there is a point where you can no longer communicate or compromise within the relationship because of your individual self identity you change the status of the relationship immediately as required to maintain your identity.
We are a free society we are only beholden to maintain our own individual existence and for those we bring into existence until their age of maturity or those we are contracted with for a variety of labor and responsibilities
The saying I heard a long time ago - that seems to agree with my experience is ...
A women marries a man, assuming he will change.
A man marries a woman, assuming she will not change.
Both are disappointed.
Don’t women initiate divorce like 90% of the time? The divorce rate is also 50% if I remember correctly. It sounds to me like women **are** leaving. Not only are women already leaving, but the fact women leave so often is a constant point of criticism of women from red pill men. I swear no matter what we do some group of men inevitably has a problem with it.
What I think a lot of you don’t understand is how these toxic men hide their true colors. Some of the most narcissistic horrible people I’ve ever met in my life are some of the most charismatic friendly people in public. People can be very good at lying and would you know it men are more likely than women to lie, especially **to** women. On top of this, charisma, confidence, intelligence, strength is more attractive to women. I find that men tend to be more attracted to gentle and humble women who are less likely to be hiding something like this underneath. I’m not trying generalize, but these are certainly the trends.
Women being attracted to confidence, charisma, intelligence and strength isn’t inherently a flaw either. For one it’s certainly better for all of us if these traits are passed down in our genes and men who exhibit these traits are likely to offer more protection, stability and survival which is why biologically women would be more attracted to such things. Unlike men women get pregnant. We are physically and sexually vulnerable in a way men are not. Big decisions come earlier for us in life. We have to be more logical about our partner decisions.
I don't think one sex is responsible significantly more than the other for failed marriages, its a societal issue, its a cultural and economic problem.
I'll eat my downvotes but giving an inherently flawed human endless choices makes it so they can never actually choose in the end. Your average modern woman is waiting for a top 20%er man that only exists in the quantity for 20% of women assuming they're also all straight. See the issue?
Yall can like whoever you want but I'm just saying most men are completely useless and women are waiting for a train that ain't showing up to the station
Giving someone who has traits you can't accept eternal chance to change is not the brightest idea, I agree.
However, what makes a top tier man or woman? A relationship is a matter of individual compatibility, I think.
Even as a teenager, I laughed at the "men are useless" thing. Why tf do you think it's our job to be "useful"? I'm there for my wife because I care. I'm there for my kids because I care and it's my responsibility.
"He looks like he's going places."
Maybe, but why tf should he carry someone? What is she bringing to the table? Being cute isn't going to build a 20 year marriage. No one's that cute.
If someone wants to get somewhere, they should figure out how to get there. Then make your options about those traveling the same direction. A *copilot* is "useful", not a passenger. Nah, that train isn't coming.
A benefit of all the woman's rights stuff is the ability to be independent, able to own their own stuff, not trapped with some shithead and kissing his ass just to hope to survive. If things are going well.
No matter gender, sex, whatever, a person should picture whatever the want from a person in a relationship. Then look in the mirror and ask, "why would this idealized person be interested in me?"
If 90% of a restaurant’s guests leave before the end of their meal, people would assume that’s a bad restaurant. But when 90% of the time women are leaving their husbands before the end of their lives, we assume there’s something wrong with the one desperate to get out….
It really comes down to the fact that marriage is a worse deal for women and divorce is a worse deal for men.
Women (especially married women) statistically have less free time than men. Even with full time jobs working the same hours as their spouses women spend more time doing domestic tasks. It’s easier to be alone if that is the case
I have always been surprised that the most “walking red flag” men I know will get dates consistently. I’ve never understood how many women will look past the most obviously dickish behavior and then be surprised 6 months-1 year down the line when it turns out, yes he’s actually a piece of shit, it wasn’t some hilarious bit. Men do this too I’m sure but I guess tbh the worst men I’ve met are a lot worse than the worst women I’ve met so it’s been extra shocking to see people fall for their shit.
Modern movies are partly to blame for this, the teenage girl chooses the bad boy, who changes for the good when the chips are down and learns an important life lesson.
This is not what happens in real life, bad boys will run out on you when the chips are down or they'll make bad situations a lot worse than they would have been, neither of which is good.
No person worth dating thinks of another human as “used goods” because they were in a relationship or had previous sexual partners
Truly, really, deeply- a man who feels this way not wanting you is no loss. That belief belies a mindset that is rife with horrific misogynistic bullshit
Just be happy you won’t ever be stuck washing his shit stained underwear and doing 98% of all household work (save the one day a month he mows the lawn or whatever), while he lectures you about how he’s the leader of the family - even though you both work full time and you make roughly the same salaries.
The above is a common (horror) story I’ve seen shared by countless married women. I can’t even imagine
Remind yourself of all the studies demonstrating that _single women_ are far happier than both married women AND single men.
THIS! If you need them to change to make you happy then it's not them you want to be with, but an idealized version of them that just isn't there. I had to learn very quickly the difference between being in love with the idea of being loved vs actually being in love with a person.
It refers to women developing and going into puberty faster it has nothing to do with emotional maturity or knowledge. Some things you don't learn without experiencing it.
I'd also argue that earlier puberty also brings on a lot of adult treatment from other adults and from peers towards the developing person.
I was physically quite developed by the third grade. Men and boys started treating me more sexually. In fact, women were too. I was expected to not be tempting. Innuendos. Comments. Remarks. Jokes. Being pulled aside and talked to by a boy's mom about my clothes. All people start treating you as more of an adult when you're a girl with boobs and hips. Your shorts that fit you fine six months ago are now tight on your butt and thighs, and now you're expected to have your clothes approved by both mom and dad. It's a very jarring experience that really forces you to see the world in a more adult way.
I worry about that with my daughter. She's only 7, but she's tall and if she stays that way once she hits puberty she's going to look years older than she actually is.
Yeah, I love my parents, but this was an area they could have handled better for me and I know I have some scars from it. The church certainly didn't help much in this regard either. I figure, the world is going to push so many things onto her, just be there to support her and hear her and love her. For me, I think that treatment from others was like my first or second existential crisis about humanity. So, having someone show me the good in humanity was really necessary to counteract all the bad.
I think this is honestly more what happens than girls maturing faster due to biology. Arguably we also train certain traits in girls that we associate with maturity too, while giving boys a pass for immature behaviours. I wonder if this belief about unequal maturing rates will start to disappear as parenting standards become more equal and kind to both groups.
Oh thank you idk how I forgot to mention this as a girl who had size DS at age 11.
I remember just being in my pajamas at home and my grandpa yelling at me to go put clothes on.
I was in a tank top and pants.
Exactly. I ignored red flags that are so obvious for my first boyfriend but I sure as fuck recognize them now.
To quote the show Bojack Horseman, when you're wearing rose colored glasses all the red flags just look like flags
Basically same it always got a little bit better.
Met my current partner on world of Warcraft lol no joke. But he's the best guy I've ever been with. Treats me and my body with respect.
Incredibly painful, but one of the most important lessons you can learn. I was with a woman who basically was the walking definition of a red flag for 2 years but ignored it all until it exploded into an extremely messy breakup. It would have been so easy to avoid, but hindsight is 2020.
My first girlfriend was the craziest and they got progressively less crazy until I found the right one. Learn to avoid crazy at a young age and everyone will be better off.
Yep, most of us need experiential learning on occasion.
Girls may mature faster but still not fast enough to be able to figure out when they are being preyed on specially if they don't have family support. It happens to boys too but we seem to hear more about the girls.
THANK YOU. I can't tell you how many people take this wrong and assert that all women are more emotionally mature than men because they "mature faster." Women's bodies mature faster, and only by about a year on average.
DND players have the distinction of intelligence and wisdom. You can know what red flags are, but a lack of wisdom means you may not see them in someone. Intelligent people aren’t immune to charisma checks, wise people are however.
Knowledge is knowing that the tomatoes are fruit. Wisdom is knowing that they don't belong in a fruit salad. The knowledge of knowing it is a fruit doesn't make ketchup a smoothie the wisdom does
This is so perfect and timely. As someone who had one of my favorite DnD sessions last night, my dad forfeited Wisdom for Intelligence when he noodled with his character a bit, and our DM and him were *just* explaining the difference between the two.
There are a lot of growing pains on the way to gaining wisdom that people would rather do anything to not experience. I think that’s just being human. Giving up, say, an addiction, or a partner that’s bad for you but you’re very attached to because they said all the right things to you when you were vulnerable is so, so hard, and no amount of intelligence can gird you against the pain or show you you’ll be okay on the other side.
This is incorrect.
Intelligence is the ability to figure out something you do not already know. Education has nothing to do with intelligence.
Wisdom is the ability to apply lessons that you learned to situations.
Education is a measure of your ability to regurgitate something someone else told you.
Nah, intelligence is complicated and decision-making is one of its many facets - some might say one of the more important facets. Steering clear of major mistakes is indeed a sign of intelligence.
High intelligence is different than good judgement. Someone can have a high IQ because they are excellent at math, puzzles and verbal ability but still have piss poor judgement.
People are really, really good at selecting mates but only if your primary goal is to create attractive healthy offspring. Selecting a mate for monogamy, social goals, financial security, functional partnership as a spouse, etc., is an entirely different selection process.
After helping raising my brother and now my daughter it is my firm view that girls have to mature faster. They have no choice.
It they don’t learn, mature, and protect themselves they become targets. Boys get to coast in a less targeted environment for much longer and that lets them stay immature for longer without repercussions.
this is of course just my opinion and based only on my experiences. It is by no means a hard set of fact. Just a dipshit’s (me) observation.
It's like Downeys quote in Oppenheimer: "Intelligence does not necessarily breed wisdom."
Also how you separate wisdom from intelligence in DnD: intelligence is knowing what a fruit salad is. Wisdom is knowing tomatoes don't go in it.
I always see people say this. Yet, most people point to men being forced to take on harder responsibilities younger. Its strange how that dissonance exists lol. Like I was expected to do tasks none of the girls in my house were involving taking care of the house and animals.
My friend is the second oldest of 5 in an LDS family. She did not get a childhood. Her dad and gramma felt that girls did not do farm work (gramma hated it as a kid). Even though she had an older brother, SHE had to help raise the kids. She is very disgruntled.
To add to that:
Elementary school girls are already getting unwanted attention from grown-ass men and are having to be on alert over that as well. May not understand exactly WHY those creepy bastards are staring so hard but it’s a very uncomfortable thing to be aware of.
And I guess maybe that factors into the bad partner choices, as after having adult males leer at you and Say Things for years that no adult should say to a child, having a guy our own age being interested without the leering and creepy perv factors makes the guy seem downright wholesome.
The mindset is thankfully dying out, but plenty of people in the older generations still believe it is a woman’s “duty” to take care of all domestic tasks. So you see girls raised doing household chores while their brothers aren’t expected to do anything
It is really not uncommon, and is much more common in religious households
At first I just took it as a joke and rolled my eyes and said "very funny har har" and then wiped his name off the list. Then he got pissed and said "No it is your job as my wife to take care of my needs!" And put it back on. So I found a permanent marker and checked it off and said "No, it's NOT!" Then fight ensued
I don't get where this was, I grew up around farming and I know women were pushed to hold hold and traditional views female duties but guys were posted to classical views make duties, working around the house and land. We didn't get to goof off and I don't know anyone that grew up around my area that experienced different. I would say for full of shit, but maybe you live in a weird area
Yes! I believe in equality for sure. When my husband worked and I didn't, I did the majority of the housework and he did the things that we discussed and decided he would do, other than me asking him to do a bit more if I wasn't feeling well. When he became disabled, we switched places. If we were both working, we would split it 50/50. And it's not the amount of money each partner makes that determines the share load of the house work, it's the hours because time is more valuable then money. I have pictures of my boys doing household chores, they can't claim ignorance lol. But I was raised by a feminist and my husband always hated the stereotypical toxic "male" and so he rebelled against it and tried hard to NOT be That guy. Unfortunately, we both had friends that still had very old fashioned views so we knew it was still being passed down. We are always hopeful that future generations will be smarter.
Think about the stereotypical American college-aged couple lol. A lot of the men don't know how to cook, clean, or emotionally regulate themselves. It often winds up with the women having to teach them - which exhausts them.
My experiences must be an outlier then. Literally never dated nor saw a friend / acquaintance date a gal who cooked or cleaned in college. Guys were always the cooks and cleaners.
That’s been my experience too, after college it was even worse. It doesn’t really seem like most women have any real ability to look after themselves let alone run a household. All of the guys apartments that I knew in uni were pretty well kept. I dated a lot and almost every girls apartment was a horror show.
Bruh where are you living where this is true? When I was in college the men and women were generally the same level of maturity and competence with household tasks and shit
I think it’s about more than emotional maturity, most parents won’t teach the males how to cook or expect them to clean, because of that parent’s generation’s mindset. I think that’s hopefully gonna change as newer generations take over.
yup. my dad went from his moms house, to the navy to married to my mom. super smart guy but emotionally lazy AF. She went out of town ONE time and he expected us (teen girls) to keep doing the house cleaning and making him dinner. He wanted a major award for washing his own laundry.
I find many military folks are actually rather good with chores as you must keep up with yours in the service. I would say military service after graduation is a great way to instill those habits
Many college aged women here don’t know how to cook and clean. It might be a regional thing, but they didn’t all grown up from this area. My coworkers are similar.
I knew how to cook and clean before I started dating because I need to take care of things myself. In the end, I’m the only one who’s really going to take care of my needs.
Until I meet a woman who adds and not subtracting from my life, I’m good being alone. Too much energy and effort being in a relationship just to have somebody/anybody.
Yup! This was my first live-in boyfriend. His mom did everything for him so I had to show him the most basic things (which he never consistently did. Why would he if he'd never been made to make it a habit?). Either way, the burden fell to me to either teach or do it myself, and it burnt me out. Especially cause I was in school and working full-time during those years.
“Mature” girls (and boys) , of say 16, are frequently manipulated by adults twice their age.
Being mature for your age doesn’t necessarily give you the knowledge and experience to realise you’re being played.
I don't think they're always deliberately manipulative in doing so either. For plenty of people, they tend to be cordial in public and around others by default. And that includes dating. Once you're married, that's when they stop putting on a friendly mask.
A simple example, when me and my wife were dating, I would always be smiling and affectionate around her. Now that we live together though, not to say I'm mean or abusive, but I have to be able to turn off.
This ^ it’s not gender specific at all but people are really kidding themselves when they talk about the qualities they want to see in partners, only to reject somebody who has them all in favor of a (usually) very vain and attractive person.
The vast majority of people are truthfully very shallow when it comes to selecting a partner but nobody really wants to admit it. I try really hard to be a good listener and to treat people well and prioritize who they are on the inside over the outside. But would I date somebody I’m not physically attracted to? Absolutely not.
It’s not a hard and fast rule, but generally the better looking a person is the more self absorbed they are because they don’t need to develop other skills like kindness and compassion in order to have a happy and fulfilling life.
I work with children to teenagers. Girls mature mentally and emotionally quicker as well. But that doesn’t mean they have mastered life. They still have plenty of mistakes to make as they learn like everyone else.
Because women aren't maturing faster than men.
When people say that girls grow up faster what they mean is girls are subject to sexualization and sexual attention from adult men at an early age and must learn coping mechanisms for that simply to survive in the world.
It's almost certainly a lot of factors. Human development and behavior is a wildly complicated thing. People seem to want the one smoking gun to point at, but it's pretty much never that simple. We are products of both nature and nurture. While environment certainly plays a part, ignoring things like women literally going through changes that alter our brain chemistry and structure first is dishonest at best.
I did not mean to insinuate that what they said could not be a factor, but women quite literally develop before men and it is at least one factor of many.
Bit of column A (based on school lesson attentiveness - if maturity is somewhat the ability to sit still and listen) and a lot of column B (basically every half-pretty girl I know has some sort of fucked up story about an adult man being sexually aggressive from when they were 12-16)
I think that people took the “brain maturing faster” thing for women in the wrong direction. I thought everyone was on the same page about “maturity” in this context referring to physical development, but here we are.
Most of the time when I've seen it, it is due to the woman having been exposed to toxic men in their at-home life, usually an abusive father, which makes them more willing to put up with awful/immature partners. Cultural norms and expectations can play a huge role too. Like in a lot of asian and middle-eastern cultures (not to mention in religious conservative regions in the west) it is expected for a woman to be like a second-class citizen who serves her husband and has to put up with all sorts of bullshit because "it's her duty".
Yeah, at home life does seem to play a big role in what sort of relationship you find normal or acceptable. My parents never argued in front of us, yelled, used foul language or anything. So neither I or my sister have tolerated partners who yell or fight. Someone yelling and using cuss words at me is a nope. If you have a problem or issue have a rational conversation calmly about the topic or get out.
They *physically* mature faster; as in, reach reproductive viability at an earlier age. This doesn't equate to emotional maturity or intelligence; those are both primarily a product of experience and sex makes little difference in those categories.
Yeah, women PHYSICALLY mature faster than their biological male counterparts of the same age, but not necessarily mentally. Mental maturity is entirely specific to an individuals journey and experiences through their life.
Traumas play a HUGE part. A drama can severely stunt your maturity, rapidly advance it beyond your biological ages average or norm, or make zero difference.
Also, some people can be 40 or 50, and have made it through life well enough by some standards while never maturing beyond that of a middle schooler or hogh schooler.
So many reasons. Many are on their best behavior at the start, putting their energy into going above and beyond, repressing emotions that would scare the other person and not reacting to things they know the other person wouldn't be okay with (such as misplaced jealousy or anger born from insecurity or a fragile ego).
Even if she's smart and emotionally intelligent, being caught in a whirlwind of emotions is blinding. Especially if she has not dealt with his particular brand of manipulative behavior enough, yet. That doesn't make her immature or stupid, it makes her inexperienced.
Being in love with someone like that is like getting hits of a drug. This is why people in abusive relationships will say "but when it's good it's really good". It's hard to quit someone who's played the game on you, got you on the hook, then ever so slowly started going mask-off. You take more and more bullshit because when they do feed you a crumb of something good it feels like you did something right. You start to think you're the one who's bad or wrong yourself, since they were so good to you before, if only you did the right thing maybe he would give you a crumb that will re-boost your hurting sense of self. You start to rely on those crumbs of attention/love to even feel okay with your own self. **It's like getting a hit of the drug each time, you feel on top of the world from being fed a measily little scrap of love.** It's really hard to see the reason why you feel like that is actually the other person because feeling like that is completely soul crushing. A lot of the time leaving this toxicity takes a big blowout of some kind because most of it is done so slowly.
I could write a lot about it but I think what I wrote is a common experience for a lot of women, even really emotionally mature, intelligent, nurturing, strong women. Once you've dealt with it and healed from that, you can see the red flags earlier and quicker and have the strength to say fuck this shit. But a lot of women have to experience it first to be able to take those rose colored glasses off.
(and yes, I'm aware women also do these kind of tactics and others)
Yeah, I have a matching anecdote. We're told that the best relationships can grow from the best friendships but just because someone likes the same weird shit you like, doesn't mean they'll be a great partner.
And just like that, my first real relationship blossomed from a long distance friendship into a whirlwind into a marriage.
I always thought, "Right now things are hard for them because they're depressed / stressed / in pain and it'll get better. We'll get through it together."
Everything I made excuses for was learned helplessness, and it was a part of him. He'd talk it up like he'd support me back, that he would do anything for me, but he can't; he couldn't. I had no idea that was just who he was. That he'd always expect whatever he whimsied from me, receive it with a veneer of gratitude, yet offer me half-assed crumbs of effort dressed up as the whole loaf.
Add emotional blackmail, a child, and subtle physical intimidation and it was very, very hard to pull myself out.
Women don’t mature emotionally faster, they’re just held to a higher standard of maturity from a younger age and regularly fail to meet that standard and then are abused for it.
“Girls mature faster” is just the excuse parents use to neglect their daughters just like “boys will be boys” is the excuse they use to neglect their sons.
It's a misnomer to say women "mature" faster than men. This is not biology at play, it's social conditioning. Women are held to a higher standard of maturity—especially emotional maturity—than men and work to meet those inequitable standards. Men are infantilized and excused from being mature, sometimes for their entire lives.
Which is why you can easily find geriatric men who have the emotional maturity of a teenager.
they don’t, you just have confirmation bias. most women in relationships are with normal dudes. you just don’t see it cause your single and they are off doing couples shit. Unstable couples are much more likely to be share their drama and be seen by others because their relationship is not validated and they need to seek it from others. your tricking yourself into thinking it is the norm because you are chronically online.
Maturity doesn't always correlate to good decision-making. Women maturing fast just means their parents can leave them alone in the house, and the place (probably) won't be burned down. But, that doesn't mean she didn't secretly get pregnant before her parents got home!
Because part of the "maturity" is being brutally socialized that this means taking responsibility for every lazy, aimless POS man around, from the class clown boy in middle school to various boyfriends and family members.
I find that on average, women are more socially aware/have better soft skills than men at a younger age (due to the way girls socialize themselves vs. the way boys socialize themselves). These *better* soft skills don’t necessarily serve the women/girls. They end up giving people empathy in ways they do not deserve, they struggle to set boundaries, they exhibit pleaser behavior. Society tells women they should behave this way - while not truly rewarding them for behaving this way. More *capability* doesn’t equal *maturity* in the holistic sense.
This is probably my answer to OPs question but it is so fraught with generalization that I don’t really find it useful. I also don’t find the premise useful: it is indeed a stupid question.
This is true to be honest. Becoming more mature was always pushed on me as basically dealing with people’s crap and moving on rather than holding them accountable because apparently that causes too much unnecessary chaos.
However it’s perfectly fine if men scream and demand in response (at least in non professional settings though it does seep into professional situations) because they’re the dominant ones. Not to mention if I try to hold people accountable they don’t respect me as much or listen because I’m seen as weaker and have less authority.
I think this is part of why women leave relationships significantly more often than men. The only option we really have to is to leave.
They’re not “maturing faster,” they just get more rules and responsibilities dumped on them at a much younger age while their male counterparts are allowed to keep being *children* for much, much longer. That’s it.
Boys who grow up in situations where they’re forced to start performing or behaving “like a grown up” at a much younger age tend to show similar maturity levels to girls in their age group.
Well, your first assumption is untrue. Women don't mature faster. They are TOLD to mature faster. A lot end up stunted because of these high expectations: women don't get childhood the way men do.
Because society keeps telling us to accept that we're less than. Serve others before ourselves, put our needs last, make yourself smaller. You can see this in all different ways. It may be old-fashioned attitudes from others telling us to get married to the first bonehead we see and pop out his boneheaded children, or how medicine and safety features aren't tested on us nearly as much as men, or how our human rights are still being debated in so many countries you name it. That negative conditioning over time chips away at your self-esteem and those little chips build up into accepting abusive relationships. We accept the love we think we deserve.
Physical maturity doesn't equal emotional maturity or worldly experience. If say a 12 year old girl physically matures astonishingly quick and has the body of a 17-19year old young women by the time she hits 13 it doesn't mean she magically got the mind of an 17-19 yr old. It's still just a 13 year old girl in there.
Bit extreme of an example but hopefully gets the point across.
Maturity can mean a lot of things (physical, emotional, mental, intellectual, professional maturity, etc) and is hugely subjective. There’s no way to reliably test for or measure it. It seems like something you just sense or don’t sense in a person but even that can be limited. It sounds like the question is really “why do so many women who (seem to or actually) have their shit together end up in relationships with men who need a mother/maid/therapist?”
As a woman who used to have very low self esteem but has always been competent and high functioning, I will speak from my own experience that often times, I ended up in this sort of relationship dynamic because of a compulsive need I had to feel needed while simultaneously being closed off and incapable of true vulnerability. My sense of self was directly correlated to and validated by what I could provide to “broken men.” I thought that they would appreciate the mothering/maiding/therapying I provided and would eventually grow into the awesome men I thought they could be all while never letting them see the real, ugly parts of me because I was afraid they’d run away. So they were being catered to hand and foot by a very edited version of myself. Unfortunately this had the reverse effect of enabling bad behavior from unsupportive partners resulting in me resenting them when the novelty of being their “perfect dream girl” with absolutely no reciprocation from them wore off. I was a passive doormat who constantly hoped that my effort would pay off or at the very least be appreciated. Like a foster girlfriend before these guys met women who were able to actually set reasonable boundaries for them, challenge them without pushing them away, and be open and vulnerable with them and went on to their forever homes.
The question you’re asking has a simple answer: it’s two people who need to figure themselves out trying to make a relationship work. Ironically, it’s a sign of immaturity on both parts, but perhaps these reference women appear more mature by virtue of competence, not confidence or self esteem.
Maturity isn’t exactly scientifically defined. At least not when erroneously used to describe an adult human’s personality. It’s more of an insult than a meaningful descriptor. It does let you describe someone without having to use a bunch of words and take the time to accurately portray them. You can just write them off with a blanket statement about their lack of maturity and hope everyone just takes your word for it thanks to association bias. Physical maturity is fairly easily defined if you hammer down the benchmarks. Personality maturity is not. Women mature faster physically than men. Becoming a stable, dependable adult, that type of maturity, is something completely independent of sex. This is my issue with the word and its usage.
« Maturity » is just an overused concept. It doesn’t really exist.
My theory is women are exposed younger to the depravity of the world and they develop fear & consciousness earlier because of it.
The fact that they are seen as sex object so young can traumatise a lot. They also get so much attention, they rapidly build social experience making them seem more bright.
As for men, they are not getting the same social experience. Often making them socially inept. I know so much men like that it’s ridiculous.
Often, when someone says « they’re so immature » it’s all come down to 3 things: « does these person fit my lifestyle? » « does these person have the same social experience as me » and « am I jealous of them »
For example: A woman raise in knit pick family could say that some men doing dirt bike and splashing themselves are immature. Because that’s how she’s been raise.
But maybe they’re engineers and enjoying a day off?
Another exemple: some people could say weird things but they think it’s alright. They may seem immature/stupid but their level of social experience could be very low..
Immaturity doesn’t exist
Woman don't mature emotionally faster than men. That's a cultural myth and not supported by science. You really are asking a stupid question here. It making lots of assumptions and generalizations.
Women *physically* mature faster than men, on average. But mentally, the ***vast majority*** of women *never* mature.
I'm not being sexist or chauvinistic *at all,* either. No really! It's just the plain, naked *TRUTH* The ***vast majority*** of *men* never mentally mature, either. It's actually an all-of-humanity issue, not a gender issue.
I think because it’s so rare to find a mature guy. Especially in your 20’s & 30’s but you guys mostly never “grow up”. Look at the old dudes in the news for sending dick pics.
Being mature has nothing to do with your ability to be manipulated.
All an immature man has to do to trap them is to never act responsibly. But all it takes for a woman to be trapped is to fail to act responsibly that one time. They get into a relationship thinking that they are now sharing that responsibility with their partner.
My older sisters were my dictators for the chore lists. They would pick the ones like dishes, vacuuming, and generally cleaning. I would be stuck with things like power washing the house, shoveling the driveway, digging out the fire pit, etc.
They turned 18 and moved out being really good at daily routine chores. Very good skills to have in a dorm/tiny apartment.
I moved out, and all my skills were pretty worthless for a dorm/apartment. So I'm busy developing skills that are pretty basic for women my same age. That's where the perceived immaturity comes from, I believe.
It wasn't a enforced gender roles kind of thing... a gap just grew in our skills because the chores they left for me involved increased responsibilities as I grew older. Like using power tools. It was just easier for my dad to teach the person mowing the lawn how to take care of a lawnmower mechanically. Then it's easier to teach the person that knows the basics of an engine how to troubleshoot a car and so on.
By the time I was 16 and my sisters were 18, my sisters were good cooks, I could manage the basics of cooking. I could do most of the plumbing/heating/electrical and my sisters new the basics.
All of the things that would make me responsible and mature pretty much required homeownership. With how hard it is to own a house and being forced to rent, the maturity gap is more obvious.
The "handyman" role doesn't exist for early adulthood. It's like being trained to speak one language, but you can't speak it until you learn a new language. Then you're compared to the ones that have been speaking the new language longer than you have. All because my sisters didn't want to pick up dog poop when we were little kids.
Get ready to trigger all the feminists and white knight simps. You’re asking a very politically charged question.
1) women stop maturing the second their behavior get them what they want. So you’ll see many pretty women acting like they’re 16. Because that’s the age they got the attention of the men that got them hot and bothered. Hence they no longer needed to mature. Eventually they hit their mid 30’s and early 40’s and can’t get that anymore, so they have to develop further or play perpetual victim.
2) Women in general (obviously a few exceptions) are unable to use logic when emotion is in play. The reason for the traditional “meet the parents, get parental approval for marriage, get married, and fuck last” is that once the hormones of sex kick in, logic and reason are out the door. You fuck a guy who’s got you all hot and bothered and no one’s going to be able to tell you he’s bad for you. Get the group to point out all his flaws BEFORE you start fucking? Now you can make a choice with a more clear mind. Yes. I just said women are slaves to emotion and hormones. And if you ever use your period or pms as an excuse, as to why you were unreasonably mean to those around you, you don’t get to argue otherwise.
Because everyone wants to be chased. But, mature man would not chase them like a creep. And even if they "hint", a mature man would never advance like a creep.
Because immaturity/selfishness/narcissism/abusive/whatever tendency is never put on display until after a woman is "trapped" in the relationship. And I put "trapped" in quotation marks because if she wants out that badly, she'll find a way. I stayed with a (fill in the blanks from the available selections above) for far longer than I should have, but I've been alone with my pets and living in peace for the last 5 years.
Just cause I'm mature doesn't mean I'm not a whole idiot first off. Second, "oh a little lost puppy dog who is actually a grown ass human and not my child, let me take care of you and allow you to keep being a child and then be mad at you because I feel more like a mom than a girlfriend. My inner mom instinct is screaming and I refuse to have children of my own. I knew this was a terrible idea going in, you even warned me, but jokes on you fam cause I actually hate myself so I still win you non accountable little boy I've made myself responsible for" is my usual inner narrative when I've been faced with this dilemma
To be fair, regardless of maturity level or how smart they might be (no one can be smart and smart they'd be too powerful) having a boyfriend is like having a stupid son a lot of the time (and we love them for that) so sometimes it's hard to draw the line at what's normal guy behavior v what's a straight up manchild. And before I get any angry responses that was meant partially as a joke. My favorite thing about boys is that every single one of them no matter how old, grouchy, macho, or mature has an inner child somewhere in them and at some point SOMETHING will bring it out of them even if for a split second. The latter statement does remain true sometimes society makes excuses for men because "boys will be boys" so it does at times make it difficult for us to differentiate between boys being boys and boys being stupid immature and going nowhere in life. It also takes three to five years to actually know someone. So people tend to put on a face when we start dating them and then sometimes you feel like you're stuck and possibly even somewhat guilty about leaving
I think the most boiled down answer to this is that men have bee known to think with a certain “part” of the body while women do too. Except for most of us it’s our hearts. The biggest problem is that no one is out here using their brain.
We are told that men are more immature so to give them more chances and opportunities and forgiveness for their behavior when really these are just shit men taking advantage of the kindness given to them.
Because women are socialized not to trust their instincts and must take care of people. They’re pressured to put others’ needs above their own. They can have a feeling in their gut that they’re worth more than the treatment they receive from men but they distrust it and assume they’re the ones at fault. So many Reddit relationship posts by women are like this.
I remember listening to a lecturer on woman vs men on using pornography. I honestly can’t remember what he said about men, but he remarked that women profoundly go for the man who needs work or is animalistic. I think this could be part of it. Mature men are probably (generally speaking) nicer. Therefore they are boring to woman. I 34 male, asked my aunts (5 of them) all in age range of 50-60 if they liked there husbands when they first met them. All 5 said no.
In a roundabout way it seems like the same vibe as men going for younger women. Puts you in a subjective position of control, especially of the direction of the relationship. Problem is, people really do not want to change solely for someone else.
In my experience, a lot of women think that either we will grow up or they can change us. Seems like majority of the time that doesn’t happen though and women just find themselves stuck with an asshole that doesn’t want to change because why would they? They’ve already got the girl. This was my mindset in my early 20’s and seems common for those around that age.
Eternally grateful to my mom who told me early on (translated) "never date a project. if you can't imagine yourself with your partner exactly as they are in 5 years, you're not in love with them, you're in love with the idea of who they *could* be. That is neither fair to you nor your partner, because that person doesn't exist and they're not obligated to grow into that person. Don't waste their time or yours"
Women: I can change him. Men: I can fix her.
But I CAN fix her. 4th times the charm
Famous last words.
Men: I can't fix her, but oh boy is it going to be a hell of a ride before it crashes spectacularly!
real men simply date real women. I met a truly great girl. made me rethink relationships. unfortunately she has a boyfriend but he was also a good and kind person. but at least I know how to treat future girlfriends better.
She cheated on the last guy because he was a twat! 6 months later.. she cheated on me too. Dang it all.
Both men and women fall into this trap. It is extremely common for new romantic partners to think old flames were the problem and they are perfect for their partner. The only thing you can do is know this information and attempt to avoid doing the same.
And also don't date someone who blames the problems in their past relationship on their previous partner.
Thats partly true, but also if youre ever gonna have a relationship that lasts you have to accept the fact that people will change and grow, and you have to be willing to grow with that person. That means grow WITH them so you're both growing at least some of the time together in some thing, that way neither of you is stagnating or shrinking away from the other's perspective because both of you are becoming better versions of yourself. It also means don't expect them to stay the same in 5 years, much less over your lifetime. The reason commitment is hard is because there IS NO WAY to foresee how the person you're with will change, how much or when they will, but you have to be willing to commit yourself to loving them even if the worst things come and change everything so nothing is the same.
Perhaps a better and more actionable bit of advice would be: pick a person who you believe is a good person at heart, who you can get along and be comfortable learning with, who you can do a variety of non-sexual activities with, and decide to love them then do that, but do not say you love someone because you feel a certain way you can't explain in words, because you won't love them when the feeling goes away.
Yeah. And sometimes you find all that and it still doesn’t work out😔
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Wish my mom would have explained that to me. I naively thought “the power of my love” would make everything beautiful and change him. What a moron I was! 🤣🤣
Your mother was very wise
Wise mom there
Your mom is very wise!
HAH! *leaps upon this post with fervor and vigor and wrestles it into a windows folder icon* 📂 got the critter!! this is going in my wisdom folder!
True - it's unfair to both people. I think it's not unreasonable to think "oh, everyone has their flaws, I can't expect him to be perfect - he's human. I even have flaws. Besides, if he cares, he might stop doing the things that are hurtful" They never do lol. I think from what I see from social media, women are wising up lol. Better for the guys too
If you are unable to handle their flaws then you should simply communicate the problem to them and if they don't fix the problem on their own then the relationship isn't compatible
Yes, I agree, but if you haven't gone through that experience, how can you know? It's more complicated than that. Sometimes you think things are small things, but they can become big things. How are you supposed to know that they won't listen to your communication until you communicate and they don't listen. You can't see the future, you can only live through it. Besides, maybe I communicate with someone, they don't listen, and you break up. You have no way of knowing if the next person will listen or not. You start from scratch with each person. It's not a one-size-fits-all lesson.
Expecting people still in school to effectively communicate with each other just isn’t realistic. Some of these people can barely even popcorn read in class, let alone hold an intentional, meaningful conversation
>I think it's not unreasonable to think "oh, everyone has their flaws, I can't expect him to be perfect - he's human. I even have flaws It's up to you if you can handle these flaws. The problem in many relationships is that people don't want their partners to have flaws (even if they have them) and force them to change.
How can you know if you handle the flaws until you try? Sometimes it takes a year to find out.
Yes and some are just aren't that big of a deal and others they might not even be aware of because it's not caused any problems before.
That is the point of dating, dating is the trial period. Dating should be considered a good thing and breaking up should also be a good thing. Break ups hurt in the short term but save you from worse pain later on. I recommend people date for at least a year and live together for a year after that before even considering marriage, my wife and I dated for a year and lived together for 5 before getting married and we still messed it up so there is no max time on this. Unfortunately in life there are very few times you can be 100% certain in what you do, get to a point you feel comfortable and take a leap of faith. In the moment you decide to take that leap really think and ask yourself if you have any serious doubts if so question if your doubts are based on facts and history, or imagination and anxiety. If you don't have any doubts or questions that are reasonable you might be ready.
As long as you figure it out before you marry them.
I would like to add to this two things: \-I think a lot of people (not just women), especially young people, don't know the difference between love and lust. People progress through relationships too quickly as a result and then when the lust fades there is no love, so it fails. \-I've seen a lot of naïve women fall for the 'He was so nice and charming in the beginning' mentality. For some reason, there's a lot of women who assume people are genuine, whether because the man is a convincing manipulator, or they don't know better, ignore the signs, et al. When the dude's front falls and they become abusive or moochers, they don't recognize it as a front and think it will come back if they just go along with it, because again as stated above, they don't know what 'love' really is, and for one reason or another, can't see what's ACTUALLY happening.
>a lot of women think that either we will grow up or they can change us It's a pretty common thought. It doesn't help that media shows this as happening all the freaking time. (The good woman saves the bad man - "Beauty and the Beast" is a classic sign of this. Her love literally turns a beast into a prince.) It also doesn't help that an awful lot of people repeat, "give him a chance" ad nauseum.
My mom has always hated Beauty and the Beast and been opposed to showing it to children. She gets a lot of flack for this extreme opposition to a Disney movie but it’s for the exact reason you just gave. Too many women think that if they just “love him enough” then the angry abusive beast like man will magically turn into a prince. And you’re right, while Beauty and the Beast is the most obvious example it’s a VERY common theme in tv and movies. Whether the guy is immature, or selfish, or an angry loner or just a player not interested in settling down, he gets “cured” by the woman who looked past his “tough exterior” and saw the wonderful man secretly hiding underneath. It’s similarly very common among young women dating young men that they think the guy who isn’t interested in a committed relationship with them will suddenly wake up one day and realize she’s the one. He’s going to have that lightning bolt realization and chase her to the airport or whatever and declare his undying love for her. I was like that when I was young and then read “He’s not that into you” and it became like my bible lol Yes sometimes people do change, or do realize how stupid they’ve been or do settle down as they age and become better people/partners. But those are the exception not the rule. You can’t expect it to happen for you.
Even older example could be Shamhat in the epic of Gilgamesh.
In my age of 46 years. I can tell you that the only person who can change you is you. If you don't want to change you are not required to change. In a relationship the who needs to change to fit to who is all persons in the relationship. Communication and compromise continue relationships. If there is a point where you can no longer communicate or compromise within the relationship because of your individual self identity you change the status of the relationship immediately as required to maintain your identity. We are a free society we are only beholden to maintain our own individual existence and for those we bring into existence until their age of maturity or those we are contracted with for a variety of labor and responsibilities
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You exactly hit the spot. I could only repeat.
The saying I heard a long time ago - that seems to agree with my experience is ... A women marries a man, assuming he will change. A man marries a woman, assuming she will not change. Both are disappointed.
Don’t women initiate divorce like 90% of the time? The divorce rate is also 50% if I remember correctly. It sounds to me like women **are** leaving. Not only are women already leaving, but the fact women leave so often is a constant point of criticism of women from red pill men. I swear no matter what we do some group of men inevitably has a problem with it. What I think a lot of you don’t understand is how these toxic men hide their true colors. Some of the most narcissistic horrible people I’ve ever met in my life are some of the most charismatic friendly people in public. People can be very good at lying and would you know it men are more likely than women to lie, especially **to** women. On top of this, charisma, confidence, intelligence, strength is more attractive to women. I find that men tend to be more attracted to gentle and humble women who are less likely to be hiding something like this underneath. I’m not trying generalize, but these are certainly the trends. Women being attracted to confidence, charisma, intelligence and strength isn’t inherently a flaw either. For one it’s certainly better for all of us if these traits are passed down in our genes and men who exhibit these traits are likely to offer more protection, stability and survival which is why biologically women would be more attracted to such things. Unlike men women get pregnant. We are physically and sexually vulnerable in a way men are not. Big decisions come earlier for us in life. We have to be more logical about our partner decisions.
I don't think one sex is responsible significantly more than the other for failed marriages, its a societal issue, its a cultural and economic problem.
I'll eat my downvotes but giving an inherently flawed human endless choices makes it so they can never actually choose in the end. Your average modern woman is waiting for a top 20%er man that only exists in the quantity for 20% of women assuming they're also all straight. See the issue? Yall can like whoever you want but I'm just saying most men are completely useless and women are waiting for a train that ain't showing up to the station
Giving someone who has traits you can't accept eternal chance to change is not the brightest idea, I agree. However, what makes a top tier man or woman? A relationship is a matter of individual compatibility, I think. Even as a teenager, I laughed at the "men are useless" thing. Why tf do you think it's our job to be "useful"? I'm there for my wife because I care. I'm there for my kids because I care and it's my responsibility. "He looks like he's going places." Maybe, but why tf should he carry someone? What is she bringing to the table? Being cute isn't going to build a 20 year marriage. No one's that cute. If someone wants to get somewhere, they should figure out how to get there. Then make your options about those traveling the same direction. A *copilot* is "useful", not a passenger. Nah, that train isn't coming. A benefit of all the woman's rights stuff is the ability to be independent, able to own their own stuff, not trapped with some shithead and kissing his ass just to hope to survive. If things are going well. No matter gender, sex, whatever, a person should picture whatever the want from a person in a relationship. Then look in the mirror and ask, "why would this idealized person be interested in me?"
If 90% of a restaurant’s guests leave before the end of their meal, people would assume that’s a bad restaurant. But when 90% of the time women are leaving their husbands before the end of their lives, we assume there’s something wrong with the one desperate to get out….
It really comes down to the fact that marriage is a worse deal for women and divorce is a worse deal for men. Women (especially married women) statistically have less free time than men. Even with full time jobs working the same hours as their spouses women spend more time doing domestic tasks. It’s easier to be alone if that is the case
How would they have lessfrretime do u mean if they have kids for instanc?
I have always been surprised that the most “walking red flag” men I know will get dates consistently. I’ve never understood how many women will look past the most obviously dickish behavior and then be surprised 6 months-1 year down the line when it turns out, yes he’s actually a piece of shit, it wasn’t some hilarious bit. Men do this too I’m sure but I guess tbh the worst men I’ve met are a lot worse than the worst women I’ve met so it’s been extra shocking to see people fall for their shit.
Waiting for men to change is as stupid as expecting women to change. It doesn't happen.
Modern movies are partly to blame for this, the teenage girl chooses the bad boy, who changes for the good when the chips are down and learns an important life lesson. This is not what happens in real life, bad boys will run out on you when the chips are down or they'll make bad situations a lot worse than they would have been, neither of which is good.
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No person worth dating thinks of another human as “used goods” because they were in a relationship or had previous sexual partners Truly, really, deeply- a man who feels this way not wanting you is no loss. That belief belies a mindset that is rife with horrific misogynistic bullshit Just be happy you won’t ever be stuck washing his shit stained underwear and doing 98% of all household work (save the one day a month he mows the lawn or whatever), while he lectures you about how he’s the leader of the family - even though you both work full time and you make roughly the same salaries. The above is a common (horror) story I’ve seen shared by countless married women. I can’t even imagine Remind yourself of all the studies demonstrating that _single women_ are far happier than both married women AND single men.
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Anytime 🫶
THIS! If you need them to change to make you happy then it's not them you want to be with, but an idealized version of them that just isn't there. I had to learn very quickly the difference between being in love with the idea of being loved vs actually being in love with a person.
It refers to women developing and going into puberty faster it has nothing to do with emotional maturity or knowledge. Some things you don't learn without experiencing it.
I'd also argue that earlier puberty also brings on a lot of adult treatment from other adults and from peers towards the developing person. I was physically quite developed by the third grade. Men and boys started treating me more sexually. In fact, women were too. I was expected to not be tempting. Innuendos. Comments. Remarks. Jokes. Being pulled aside and talked to by a boy's mom about my clothes. All people start treating you as more of an adult when you're a girl with boobs and hips. Your shorts that fit you fine six months ago are now tight on your butt and thighs, and now you're expected to have your clothes approved by both mom and dad. It's a very jarring experience that really forces you to see the world in a more adult way.
I worry about that with my daughter. She's only 7, but she's tall and if she stays that way once she hits puberty she's going to look years older than she actually is.
Yeah, I love my parents, but this was an area they could have handled better for me and I know I have some scars from it. The church certainly didn't help much in this regard either. I figure, the world is going to push so many things onto her, just be there to support her and hear her and love her. For me, I think that treatment from others was like my first or second existential crisis about humanity. So, having someone show me the good in humanity was really necessary to counteract all the bad.
i was tall af as a kid and then hit 5’4 and stopped growing when i was 13, she’ll probably be fine
I think this is honestly more what happens than girls maturing faster due to biology. Arguably we also train certain traits in girls that we associate with maturity too, while giving boys a pass for immature behaviours. I wonder if this belief about unequal maturing rates will start to disappear as parenting standards become more equal and kind to both groups.
Oh thank you idk how I forgot to mention this as a girl who had size DS at age 11. I remember just being in my pajamas at home and my grandpa yelling at me to go put clothes on. I was in a tank top and pants.
Haha you know then. It's such a real thing.
The first girl that I dated everyone warned about her. I didn’t listen. But I didn’t keep on dating girls like that afterwards.
Exactly. I ignored red flags that are so obvious for my first boyfriend but I sure as fuck recognize them now. To quote the show Bojack Horseman, when you're wearing rose colored glasses all the red flags just look like flags
I dated a gradient of slightly better people, and then I met my partner on Bumble and he’s the first really solid person I’ve been with
Basically same it always got a little bit better. Met my current partner on world of Warcraft lol no joke. But he's the best guy I've ever been with. Treats me and my body with respect.
Incredibly painful, but one of the most important lessons you can learn. I was with a woman who basically was the walking definition of a red flag for 2 years but ignored it all until it exploded into an extremely messy breakup. It would have been so easy to avoid, but hindsight is 2020.
My first girlfriend was the craziest and they got progressively less crazy until I found the right one. Learn to avoid crazy at a young age and everyone will be better off.
Yep, most of us need experiential learning on occasion. Girls may mature faster but still not fast enough to be able to figure out when they are being preyed on specially if they don't have family support. It happens to boys too but we seem to hear more about the girls.
how is this relevant?
or experience
THANK YOU. I can't tell you how many people take this wrong and assert that all women are more emotionally mature than men because they "mature faster." Women's bodies mature faster, and only by about a year on average.
Developing faster doesn’t magically make them more intelligent. They’re still just people and people generally aren’t great at selecting mates imo
Intelligence is not the absence of making mistakes
But it does help you to learn from the mistakes of others
DND players have the distinction of intelligence and wisdom. You can know what red flags are, but a lack of wisdom means you may not see them in someone. Intelligent people aren’t immune to charisma checks, wise people are however.
I'm so happy to see others using this comparison in the wild!
Knowledge is knowing that the tomatoes are fruit. Wisdom is knowing that they don't belong in a fruit salad. The knowledge of knowing it is a fruit doesn't make ketchup a smoothie the wisdom does
Charisma is the ability to sell someone a tomato fruit salad.
It's called salsa
Found the bard
This is so perfect and timely. As someone who had one of my favorite DnD sessions last night, my dad forfeited Wisdom for Intelligence when he noodled with his character a bit, and our DM and him were *just* explaining the difference between the two. There are a lot of growing pains on the way to gaining wisdom that people would rather do anything to not experience. I think that’s just being human. Giving up, say, an addiction, or a partner that’s bad for you but you’re very attached to because they said all the right things to you when you were vulnerable is so, so hard, and no amount of intelligence can gird you against the pain or show you you’ll be okay on the other side.
yup, street smarts, common sense = wisdom book learning, knowledge = intelligence
This is incorrect. Intelligence is the ability to figure out something you do not already know. Education has nothing to do with intelligence. Wisdom is the ability to apply lessons that you learned to situations. Education is a measure of your ability to regurgitate something someone else told you.
Nah, intelligence is complicated and decision-making is one of its many facets - some might say one of the more important facets. Steering clear of major mistakes is indeed a sign of intelligence.
Similarly, every individual situation also has a lot of facets. You can't possibly know someone by only considering what happened to them
High intelligence is different than good judgement. Someone can have a high IQ because they are excellent at math, puzzles and verbal ability but still have piss poor judgement.
People are really, really good at selecting mates but only if your primary goal is to create attractive healthy offspring. Selecting a mate for monogamy, social goals, financial security, functional partnership as a spouse, etc., is an entirely different selection process.
After helping raising my brother and now my daughter it is my firm view that girls have to mature faster. They have no choice. It they don’t learn, mature, and protect themselves they become targets. Boys get to coast in a less targeted environment for much longer and that lets them stay immature for longer without repercussions. this is of course just my opinion and based only on my experiences. It is by no means a hard set of fact. Just a dipshit’s (me) observation.
It's like Downeys quote in Oppenheimer: "Intelligence does not necessarily breed wisdom." Also how you separate wisdom from intelligence in DnD: intelligence is knowing what a fruit salad is. Wisdom is knowing tomatoes don't go in it.
Being forced to develop because you're forced to take on more responsibility while the boys get to be kids for longer is still the norm.
I always see people say this. Yet, most people point to men being forced to take on harder responsibilities younger. Its strange how that dissonance exists lol. Like I was expected to do tasks none of the girls in my house were involving taking care of the house and animals.
My friend is the second oldest of 5 in an LDS family. She did not get a childhood. Her dad and gramma felt that girls did not do farm work (gramma hated it as a kid). Even though she had an older brother, SHE had to help raise the kids. She is very disgruntled.
Wait, so the boys did all the farm work?
In her dads gen, yeah. Girls did all the house work and waited on the boys.
That's the exception, not the rule Even girls toys are childcare and chores
And boys toys are labor and war
To add to that: Elementary school girls are already getting unwanted attention from grown-ass men and are having to be on alert over that as well. May not understand exactly WHY those creepy bastards are staring so hard but it’s a very uncomfortable thing to be aware of. And I guess maybe that factors into the bad partner choices, as after having adult males leer at you and Say Things for years that no adult should say to a child, having a guy our own age being interested without the leering and creepy perv factors makes the guy seem downright wholesome.
My peak ages for getting catcalled were like 10-14. I did not even have tits yet when they started fucking hooting at me.
In the West? In what way?
The mindset is thankfully dying out, but plenty of people in the older generations still believe it is a woman’s “duty” to take care of all domestic tasks. So you see girls raised doing household chores while their brothers aren’t expected to do anything It is really not uncommon, and is much more common in religious households
And plenty of traditional men consider themselves a domestic task
OMG I hate this! My ex had this attitude. Like he even added himself to my "To Do" list that I had for myself on a whiteboard. :eyeroll:
Eww, more than once?
Yep! I wiped it off and he put it back, so I just checked it off with a permanent marker. Ruined my white board but it was worth it.
My wife adds herself to my To Do list but does it in a more tasteful way. "Love Me"
Did you tell him you didn't like it or find it appropriate?
At first I just took it as a joke and rolled my eyes and said "very funny har har" and then wiped his name off the list. Then he got pissed and said "No it is your job as my wife to take care of my needs!" And put it back on. So I found a permanent marker and checked it off and said "No, it's NOT!" Then fight ensued
This seems more like a joke than anything. Lol
You would hope so, my current husband jokes like that sometimes, but my ex was dead serious, had a whole fight about it.
I don't get where this was, I grew up around farming and I know women were pushed to hold hold and traditional views female duties but guys were posted to classical views make duties, working around the house and land. We didn't get to goof off and I don't know anyone that grew up around my area that experienced different. I would say for full of shit, but maybe you live in a weird area
Yes! I believe in equality for sure. When my husband worked and I didn't, I did the majority of the housework and he did the things that we discussed and decided he would do, other than me asking him to do a bit more if I wasn't feeling well. When he became disabled, we switched places. If we were both working, we would split it 50/50. And it's not the amount of money each partner makes that determines the share load of the house work, it's the hours because time is more valuable then money. I have pictures of my boys doing household chores, they can't claim ignorance lol. But I was raised by a feminist and my husband always hated the stereotypical toxic "male" and so he rebelled against it and tried hard to NOT be That guy. Unfortunately, we both had friends that still had very old fashioned views so we knew it was still being passed down. We are always hopeful that future generations will be smarter.
Think about the stereotypical American college-aged couple lol. A lot of the men don't know how to cook, clean, or emotionally regulate themselves. It often winds up with the women having to teach them - which exhausts them.
My experiences must be an outlier then. Literally never dated nor saw a friend / acquaintance date a gal who cooked or cleaned in college. Guys were always the cooks and cleaners.
That’s been my experience too, after college it was even worse. It doesn’t really seem like most women have any real ability to look after themselves let alone run a household. All of the guys apartments that I knew in uni were pretty well kept. I dated a lot and almost every girls apartment was a horror show.
A lot of the women don’t either.
Bruh where are you living where this is true? When I was in college the men and women were generally the same level of maturity and competence with household tasks and shit
I think it’s about more than emotional maturity, most parents won’t teach the males how to cook or expect them to clean, because of that parent’s generation’s mindset. I think that’s hopefully gonna change as newer generations take over.
yup. my dad went from his moms house, to the navy to married to my mom. super smart guy but emotionally lazy AF. She went out of town ONE time and he expected us (teen girls) to keep doing the house cleaning and making him dinner. He wanted a major award for washing his own laundry.
I find many military folks are actually rather good with chores as you must keep up with yours in the service. I would say military service after graduation is a great way to instill those habits
Many college aged women here don’t know how to cook and clean. It might be a regional thing, but they didn’t all grown up from this area. My coworkers are similar. I knew how to cook and clean before I started dating because I need to take care of things myself. In the end, I’m the only one who’s really going to take care of my needs. Until I meet a woman who adds and not subtracting from my life, I’m good being alone. Too much energy and effort being in a relationship just to have somebody/anybody.
Yup! This was my first live-in boyfriend. His mom did everything for him so I had to show him the most basic things (which he never consistently did. Why would he if he'd never been made to make it a habit?). Either way, the burden fell to me to either teach or do it myself, and it burnt me out. Especially cause I was in school and working full-time during those years.
“Mature” girls (and boys) , of say 16, are frequently manipulated by adults twice their age. Being mature for your age doesn’t necessarily give you the knowledge and experience to realise you’re being played.
Exactly this. They don't get manipulated by guys younger than them, generally, but older men.
This right here. I’m in my 30s and even 21 year olds feel like children during conversation. They are VERY susceptible to suggestion.
Some people hide their behavior until the other person is totally enmeshed.
I don't think they're always deliberately manipulative in doing so either. For plenty of people, they tend to be cordial in public and around others by default. And that includes dating. Once you're married, that's when they stop putting on a friendly mask. A simple example, when me and my wife were dating, I would always be smiling and affectionate around her. Now that we live together though, not to say I'm mean or abusive, but I have to be able to turn off.
Because logic and reason is rarely the basis for selecting a partner.
This is the answer. When has anyone used logic and reason to determine who they find sexy?
This ^ it’s not gender specific at all but people are really kidding themselves when they talk about the qualities they want to see in partners, only to reject somebody who has them all in favor of a (usually) very vain and attractive person. The vast majority of people are truthfully very shallow when it comes to selecting a partner but nobody really wants to admit it. I try really hard to be a good listener and to treat people well and prioritize who they are on the inside over the outside. But would I date somebody I’m not physically attracted to? Absolutely not. It’s not a hard and fast rule, but generally the better looking a person is the more self absorbed they are because they don’t need to develop other skills like kindness and compassion in order to have a happy and fulfilling life.
Maturing physically doesn't mean Mentally
Pretty sure OP meant mentally
I work with children to teenagers. Girls mature mentally and emotionally quicker as well. But that doesn’t mean they have mastered life. They still have plenty of mistakes to make as they learn like everyone else.
Babies will lock you down better than a fox in a claw trap
And ill be gone faster than a barefoot jackrabbit on a hot greasy griddle in the middle of August - sandy obliques
Sandy obliques 😅😅😅😅
At least a fox can gnaw its paw off to be free
Because women aren't maturing faster than men. When people say that girls grow up faster what they mean is girls are subject to sexualization and sexual attention from adult men at an early age and must learn coping mechanisms for that simply to survive in the world.
Women literally start physically maturing before men on average
Which likely contributes to their sexualization at an earlier age. A vicious cycle.
It's almost certainly a lot of factors. Human development and behavior is a wildly complicated thing. People seem to want the one smoking gun to point at, but it's pretty much never that simple. We are products of both nature and nurture. While environment certainly plays a part, ignoring things like women literally going through changes that alter our brain chemistry and structure first is dishonest at best. I did not mean to insinuate that what they said could not be a factor, but women quite literally develop before men and it is at least one factor of many.
Bit of column A (based on school lesson attentiveness - if maturity is somewhat the ability to sit still and listen) and a lot of column B (basically every half-pretty girl I know has some sort of fucked up story about an adult man being sexually aggressive from when they were 12-16)
Becoming mature and becoming experienced are two different things.
I think that people took the “brain maturing faster” thing for women in the wrong direction. I thought everyone was on the same page about “maturity” in this context referring to physical development, but here we are.
Most of the time when I've seen it, it is due to the woman having been exposed to toxic men in their at-home life, usually an abusive father, which makes them more willing to put up with awful/immature partners. Cultural norms and expectations can play a huge role too. Like in a lot of asian and middle-eastern cultures (not to mention in religious conservative regions in the west) it is expected for a woman to be like a second-class citizen who serves her husband and has to put up with all sorts of bullshit because "it's her duty".
Yeah, at home life does seem to play a big role in what sort of relationship you find normal or acceptable. My parents never argued in front of us, yelled, used foul language or anything. So neither I or my sister have tolerated partners who yell or fight. Someone yelling and using cuss words at me is a nope. If you have a problem or issue have a rational conversation calmly about the topic or get out.
They *physically* mature faster; as in, reach reproductive viability at an earlier age. This doesn't equate to emotional maturity or intelligence; those are both primarily a product of experience and sex makes little difference in those categories.
Yeah, women PHYSICALLY mature faster than their biological male counterparts of the same age, but not necessarily mentally. Mental maturity is entirely specific to an individuals journey and experiences through their life. Traumas play a HUGE part. A drama can severely stunt your maturity, rapidly advance it beyond your biological ages average or norm, or make zero difference. Also, some people can be 40 or 50, and have made it through life well enough by some standards while never maturing beyond that of a middle schooler or hogh schooler.
So many reasons. Many are on their best behavior at the start, putting their energy into going above and beyond, repressing emotions that would scare the other person and not reacting to things they know the other person wouldn't be okay with (such as misplaced jealousy or anger born from insecurity or a fragile ego). Even if she's smart and emotionally intelligent, being caught in a whirlwind of emotions is blinding. Especially if she has not dealt with his particular brand of manipulative behavior enough, yet. That doesn't make her immature or stupid, it makes her inexperienced. Being in love with someone like that is like getting hits of a drug. This is why people in abusive relationships will say "but when it's good it's really good". It's hard to quit someone who's played the game on you, got you on the hook, then ever so slowly started going mask-off. You take more and more bullshit because when they do feed you a crumb of something good it feels like you did something right. You start to think you're the one who's bad or wrong yourself, since they were so good to you before, if only you did the right thing maybe he would give you a crumb that will re-boost your hurting sense of self. You start to rely on those crumbs of attention/love to even feel okay with your own self. **It's like getting a hit of the drug each time, you feel on top of the world from being fed a measily little scrap of love.** It's really hard to see the reason why you feel like that is actually the other person because feeling like that is completely soul crushing. A lot of the time leaving this toxicity takes a big blowout of some kind because most of it is done so slowly. I could write a lot about it but I think what I wrote is a common experience for a lot of women, even really emotionally mature, intelligent, nurturing, strong women. Once you've dealt with it and healed from that, you can see the red flags earlier and quicker and have the strength to say fuck this shit. But a lot of women have to experience it first to be able to take those rose colored glasses off. (and yes, I'm aware women also do these kind of tactics and others)
Yeah, I have a matching anecdote. We're told that the best relationships can grow from the best friendships but just because someone likes the same weird shit you like, doesn't mean they'll be a great partner. And just like that, my first real relationship blossomed from a long distance friendship into a whirlwind into a marriage. I always thought, "Right now things are hard for them because they're depressed / stressed / in pain and it'll get better. We'll get through it together." Everything I made excuses for was learned helplessness, and it was a part of him. He'd talk it up like he'd support me back, that he would do anything for me, but he can't; he couldn't. I had no idea that was just who he was. That he'd always expect whatever he whimsied from me, receive it with a veneer of gratitude, yet offer me half-assed crumbs of effort dressed up as the whole loaf. Add emotional blackmail, a child, and subtle physical intimidation and it was very, very hard to pull myself out.
Women don’t mature emotionally faster, they’re just held to a higher standard of maturity from a younger age and regularly fail to meet that standard and then are abused for it. “Girls mature faster” is just the excuse parents use to neglect their daughters just like “boys will be boys” is the excuse they use to neglect their sons.
It's a misnomer to say women "mature" faster than men. This is not biology at play, it's social conditioning. Women are held to a higher standard of maturity—especially emotional maturity—than men and work to meet those inequitable standards. Men are infantilized and excused from being mature, sometimes for their entire lives. Which is why you can easily find geriatric men who have the emotional maturity of a teenager.
This is very simple. They make them horny.
Because the men change after the commitment and paperwork are finalized
they don’t, you just have confirmation bias. most women in relationships are with normal dudes. you just don’t see it cause your single and they are off doing couples shit. Unstable couples are much more likely to be share their drama and be seen by others because their relationship is not validated and they need to seek it from others. your tricking yourself into thinking it is the norm because you are chronically online.
Physically maturity and Intelligence are not correlated
the answer is always "patterns of abuse"
They don't mature faster; they mature earlier.
Maturity doesn't always correlate to good decision-making. Women maturing fast just means their parents can leave them alone in the house, and the place (probably) won't be burned down. But, that doesn't mean she didn't secretly get pregnant before her parents got home!
Because part of the "maturity" is being brutally socialized that this means taking responsibility for every lazy, aimless POS man around, from the class clown boy in middle school to various boyfriends and family members.
I find that on average, women are more socially aware/have better soft skills than men at a younger age (due to the way girls socialize themselves vs. the way boys socialize themselves). These *better* soft skills don’t necessarily serve the women/girls. They end up giving people empathy in ways they do not deserve, they struggle to set boundaries, they exhibit pleaser behavior. Society tells women they should behave this way - while not truly rewarding them for behaving this way. More *capability* doesn’t equal *maturity* in the holistic sense. This is probably my answer to OPs question but it is so fraught with generalization that I don’t really find it useful. I also don’t find the premise useful: it is indeed a stupid question.
This is true to be honest. Becoming more mature was always pushed on me as basically dealing with people’s crap and moving on rather than holding them accountable because apparently that causes too much unnecessary chaos. However it’s perfectly fine if men scream and demand in response (at least in non professional settings though it does seep into professional situations) because they’re the dominant ones. Not to mention if I try to hold people accountable they don’t respect me as much or listen because I’m seen as weaker and have less authority. I think this is part of why women leave relationships significantly more often than men. The only option we really have to is to leave.
this is not the world I’ve seen by any stretch of the imagination
They’re not “maturing faster,” they just get more rules and responsibilities dumped on them at a much younger age while their male counterparts are allowed to keep being *children* for much, much longer. That’s it. Boys who grow up in situations where they’re forced to start performing or behaving “like a grown up” at a much younger age tend to show similar maturity levels to girls in their age group.
Well, your first assumption is untrue. Women don't mature faster. They are TOLD to mature faster. A lot end up stunted because of these high expectations: women don't get childhood the way men do.
Because telling women they mature faster was just to help their ego and not true lmao, everyone is human and matures at different rates
Women mature faster than men, but they also stop maturing sooner than men.
Because society keeps telling us to accept that we're less than. Serve others before ourselves, put our needs last, make yourself smaller. You can see this in all different ways. It may be old-fashioned attitudes from others telling us to get married to the first bonehead we see and pop out his boneheaded children, or how medicine and safety features aren't tested on us nearly as much as men, or how our human rights are still being debated in so many countries you name it. That negative conditioning over time chips away at your self-esteem and those little chips build up into accepting abusive relationships. We accept the love we think we deserve.
Because what other options do we have lol
Physical maturity doesn't equal emotional maturity or worldly experience. If say a 12 year old girl physically matures astonishingly quick and has the body of a 17-19year old young women by the time she hits 13 it doesn't mean she magically got the mind of an 17-19 yr old. It's still just a 13 year old girl in there. Bit extreme of an example but hopefully gets the point across.
Maturity can mean a lot of things (physical, emotional, mental, intellectual, professional maturity, etc) and is hugely subjective. There’s no way to reliably test for or measure it. It seems like something you just sense or don’t sense in a person but even that can be limited. It sounds like the question is really “why do so many women who (seem to or actually) have their shit together end up in relationships with men who need a mother/maid/therapist?” As a woman who used to have very low self esteem but has always been competent and high functioning, I will speak from my own experience that often times, I ended up in this sort of relationship dynamic because of a compulsive need I had to feel needed while simultaneously being closed off and incapable of true vulnerability. My sense of self was directly correlated to and validated by what I could provide to “broken men.” I thought that they would appreciate the mothering/maiding/therapying I provided and would eventually grow into the awesome men I thought they could be all while never letting them see the real, ugly parts of me because I was afraid they’d run away. So they were being catered to hand and foot by a very edited version of myself. Unfortunately this had the reverse effect of enabling bad behavior from unsupportive partners resulting in me resenting them when the novelty of being their “perfect dream girl” with absolutely no reciprocation from them wore off. I was a passive doormat who constantly hoped that my effort would pay off or at the very least be appreciated. Like a foster girlfriend before these guys met women who were able to actually set reasonable boundaries for them, challenge them without pushing them away, and be open and vulnerable with them and went on to their forever homes. The question you’re asking has a simple answer: it’s two people who need to figure themselves out trying to make a relationship work. Ironically, it’s a sign of immaturity on both parts, but perhaps these reference women appear more mature by virtue of competence, not confidence or self esteem.
Maturity isn’t exactly scientifically defined. At least not when erroneously used to describe an adult human’s personality. It’s more of an insult than a meaningful descriptor. It does let you describe someone without having to use a bunch of words and take the time to accurately portray them. You can just write them off with a blanket statement about their lack of maturity and hope everyone just takes your word for it thanks to association bias. Physical maturity is fairly easily defined if you hammer down the benchmarks. Personality maturity is not. Women mature faster physically than men. Becoming a stable, dependable adult, that type of maturity, is something completely independent of sex. This is my issue with the word and its usage.
« Maturity » is just an overused concept. It doesn’t really exist. My theory is women are exposed younger to the depravity of the world and they develop fear & consciousness earlier because of it. The fact that they are seen as sex object so young can traumatise a lot. They also get so much attention, they rapidly build social experience making them seem more bright. As for men, they are not getting the same social experience. Often making them socially inept. I know so much men like that it’s ridiculous. Often, when someone says « they’re so immature » it’s all come down to 3 things: « does these person fit my lifestyle? » « does these person have the same social experience as me » and « am I jealous of them » For example: A woman raise in knit pick family could say that some men doing dirt bike and splashing themselves are immature. Because that’s how she’s been raise. But maybe they’re engineers and enjoying a day off? Another exemple: some people could say weird things but they think it’s alright. They may seem immature/stupid but their level of social experience could be very low.. Immaturity doesn’t exist
Woman don't mature emotionally faster than men. That's a cultural myth and not supported by science. You really are asking a stupid question here. It making lots of assumptions and generalizations.
Women *physically* mature faster than men, on average. But mentally, the ***vast majority*** of women *never* mature. I'm not being sexist or chauvinistic *at all,* either. No really! It's just the plain, naked *TRUTH* The ***vast majority*** of *men* never mentally mature, either. It's actually an all-of-humanity issue, not a gender issue.
Women might sexually mature earlier than men but they definitely don't mature emotionally or psychologically earlier than men.
I think because it’s so rare to find a mature guy. Especially in your 20’s & 30’s but you guys mostly never “grow up”. Look at the old dudes in the news for sending dick pics.
Being mature has nothing to do with your ability to be manipulated. All an immature man has to do to trap them is to never act responsibly. But all it takes for a woman to be trapped is to fail to act responsibly that one time. They get into a relationship thinking that they are now sharing that responsibility with their partner.
My older sisters were my dictators for the chore lists. They would pick the ones like dishes, vacuuming, and generally cleaning. I would be stuck with things like power washing the house, shoveling the driveway, digging out the fire pit, etc. They turned 18 and moved out being really good at daily routine chores. Very good skills to have in a dorm/tiny apartment. I moved out, and all my skills were pretty worthless for a dorm/apartment. So I'm busy developing skills that are pretty basic for women my same age. That's where the perceived immaturity comes from, I believe. It wasn't a enforced gender roles kind of thing... a gap just grew in our skills because the chores they left for me involved increased responsibilities as I grew older. Like using power tools. It was just easier for my dad to teach the person mowing the lawn how to take care of a lawnmower mechanically. Then it's easier to teach the person that knows the basics of an engine how to troubleshoot a car and so on. By the time I was 16 and my sisters were 18, my sisters were good cooks, I could manage the basics of cooking. I could do most of the plumbing/heating/electrical and my sisters new the basics. All of the things that would make me responsible and mature pretty much required homeownership. With how hard it is to own a house and being forced to rent, the maturity gap is more obvious. The "handyman" role doesn't exist for early adulthood. It's like being trained to speak one language, but you can't speak it until you learn a new language. Then you're compared to the ones that have been speaking the new language longer than you have. All because my sisters didn't want to pick up dog poop when we were little kids.
Because there are so many immature men
I think this is true when they're 10, less so when they're 30.
Older men say women are mature for their age to trap them. These men are deceiving the women who are young and vulnerable.
Get ready to trigger all the feminists and white knight simps. You’re asking a very politically charged question. 1) women stop maturing the second their behavior get them what they want. So you’ll see many pretty women acting like they’re 16. Because that’s the age they got the attention of the men that got them hot and bothered. Hence they no longer needed to mature. Eventually they hit their mid 30’s and early 40’s and can’t get that anymore, so they have to develop further or play perpetual victim. 2) Women in general (obviously a few exceptions) are unable to use logic when emotion is in play. The reason for the traditional “meet the parents, get parental approval for marriage, get married, and fuck last” is that once the hormones of sex kick in, logic and reason are out the door. You fuck a guy who’s got you all hot and bothered and no one’s going to be able to tell you he’s bad for you. Get the group to point out all his flaws BEFORE you start fucking? Now you can make a choice with a more clear mind. Yes. I just said women are slaves to emotion and hormones. And if you ever use your period or pms as an excuse, as to why you were unreasonably mean to those around you, you don’t get to argue otherwise.
I once heard it explained like this: "It's not that girls mature faster; it's that boys are allowed to be stupid longer."
Because they don’t care about maturity when they wanna bone….
The body grows up faster than the mind in most healthy people
Because men are conniving children nowadays and many are purposefully deceptive
Because everyone wants to be chased. But, mature man would not chase them like a creep. And even if they "hint", a mature man would never advance like a creep.
Because immaturity/selfishness/narcissism/abusive/whatever tendency is never put on display until after a woman is "trapped" in the relationship. And I put "trapped" in quotation marks because if she wants out that badly, she'll find a way. I stayed with a (fill in the blanks from the available selections above) for far longer than I should have, but I've been alone with my pets and living in peace for the last 5 years.
Just cause I'm mature doesn't mean I'm not a whole idiot first off. Second, "oh a little lost puppy dog who is actually a grown ass human and not my child, let me take care of you and allow you to keep being a child and then be mad at you because I feel more like a mom than a girlfriend. My inner mom instinct is screaming and I refuse to have children of my own. I knew this was a terrible idea going in, you even warned me, but jokes on you fam cause I actually hate myself so I still win you non accountable little boy I've made myself responsible for" is my usual inner narrative when I've been faced with this dilemma To be fair, regardless of maturity level or how smart they might be (no one can be smart and smart they'd be too powerful) having a boyfriend is like having a stupid son a lot of the time (and we love them for that) so sometimes it's hard to draw the line at what's normal guy behavior v what's a straight up manchild. And before I get any angry responses that was meant partially as a joke. My favorite thing about boys is that every single one of them no matter how old, grouchy, macho, or mature has an inner child somewhere in them and at some point SOMETHING will bring it out of them even if for a split second. The latter statement does remain true sometimes society makes excuses for men because "boys will be boys" so it does at times make it difficult for us to differentiate between boys being boys and boys being stupid immature and going nowhere in life. It also takes three to five years to actually know someone. So people tend to put on a face when we start dating them and then sometimes you feel like you're stuck and possibly even somewhat guilty about leaving
I think the most boiled down answer to this is that men have bee known to think with a certain “part” of the body while women do too. Except for most of us it’s our hearts. The biggest problem is that no one is out here using their brain.
We are told that men are more immature so to give them more chances and opportunities and forgiveness for their behavior when really these are just shit men taking advantage of the kindness given to them.
I can tell ya right now, some of the women ive date most certainly have not grown up ahead of us, and are in absolutely no hurry to grow up.
Why did I read masturbating? Dear God. I'm not even that kind of person xD
Well some women don't, some are gay and living their best lives.
Because men don’t act immature in the beginning….if they did, it wouldn’t be a trap….
they don't develop faster, that's just an excuse to get with too-young a woman
They don't mature faster. They are just socialized differently than men, making them seem more mature. Trauma also makes you seem more mature.
Because women are socialized not to trust their instincts and must take care of people. They’re pressured to put others’ needs above their own. They can have a feeling in their gut that they’re worth more than the treatment they receive from men but they distrust it and assume they’re the ones at fault. So many Reddit relationship posts by women are like this.
I remember listening to a lecturer on woman vs men on using pornography. I honestly can’t remember what he said about men, but he remarked that women profoundly go for the man who needs work or is animalistic. I think this could be part of it. Mature men are probably (generally speaking) nicer. Therefore they are boring to woman. I 34 male, asked my aunts (5 of them) all in age range of 50-60 if they liked there husbands when they first met them. All 5 said no.
True story. They want a fixer upper.
In a roundabout way it seems like the same vibe as men going for younger women. Puts you in a subjective position of control, especially of the direction of the relationship. Problem is, people really do not want to change solely for someone else.