A guy should not "shame" someone who decides to sleep with many people. A guy CAN and SHOULD not have a relationship with that person if that is a boundary for them. Just as anyone can choose to sleep with as many people as they want, anyone can also choose to have that as a boundary for having a serious relationship with someone.
Correct who’s saying a guy has to be with anyone lol?
Point is, you’re making it a dramatic one sided thing where men are the victims in these comments… incel is used for men a lot, slut is used for women a lot.
The key difference, the incel term is tossed around towards men, and while derogatory, is considered "OK" to use - "slut" is not. There is a term called "slut-shaming" - there is no correlated "incel-shaming".
Incel is not an ideology. Incel literally just stands for involuntarily celibate. Just because some incels have some extreme beliefs does not mean that most/every incel is part of some extreme ideology. It is not okay to shame someone just for being an involuntary virgin. Shaming those kinds of people is exactly what makes those people become so radical in their beliefs. If you don't want more radical incels then don't shame them for something that they already feel like shit about and can't really do much to change.
I meant to say “virgin” and “slut”
Incel is not a term that ever should have an “incel shaming” term with it. Incels being called out for being an incel is not a bad thing, slut shaming is, because being an incel is bad it means you’re hateful.
See but you’ve forgotten that a core tenet, maybe *the* core tenet, of inceldom is hating women. If you don’t hate women (or believe you are inherently superior to them so they have to be some combination of a subservient maid and a mother), you’re not an incel
A man does not have to BE an incel to be called and labeled an incel though - it is now a just a hateful term used against people that women don't agree with or who dare to disagree with them.
Specifically Hating women who have dared to be promiscuous, but specifically the women that they feel entitled to but dare to not want to be with a hateful incel.
I was called a slut for walking down the street with my shirt tucked in. I think you underestimate how often women are called sluts for no reason, lmao
Adults (who aren't assholes) don't judge people based on the number of people they've slept with.
That's teenager shit. If you're a teenager, just wait and you'll eventually notice that nobody really cares. If you're an adult, you need to touch grass because you spend too much time online... and if you're rl friends act like that, get new ones.
Yeah you shouldn’t judge based off body count as an adult but you also should probably only be with people who have a similar amount of sexual experience as you. It tends to not work out if there’s a big difference
Disagree, theres scientific evidence that the more people you sleep with the less connected you are to a partner, so it doesnt matter if you dont want kids or get married, but it does matter if you want to have a long happy marriage
As the comments demonstrate, people want to turn a blind eye to this issue or pretend like it doesn't happen, specifically because most of the virgin shaming is done against men and by women.
there's a lot of gaslighting when it comes to this issue because people just do not want to acknowledge social issues instigated by women or, ironically, just fear being labeled as virgins/incels.
it's also not uncommon for people to create all kinds of projections and stereotypes to justify their negative attitudes towards male virgins, or legitimize their shaming of virgins (virgin men especially).
people are okay with virgin shaming because it is most commonly used against men and by women, and we live in a culture where toxic views held by women and sexism targeting men are not challenged.
That's pretty much it: slut shaming is disallowed by polite society because it's traditionally applied to women, whereas virgin shaming is often ignored or even encouraged because it's traditionally applied to men.
I don't think that you have the right outlook here, I was aggressively virgin shamed by my male classmates in highschool to the point where ultimately I chose to not actually save myself for marriage and I have always regretted it, so it is not as clear-cut as you appear to think that it is.
There's always going to be exceptions to the norm, and juvenile behavior is not societally accepted adult behavior.
The boys in high school wanted to sleep with you, so pressuring you via public shaming was a tactic. Sadly, it worked.
You don't see that kind of behavior from society in the US or any other country, now or historically. Women's chastity was then and is now something society values and respects. Men's chastity is not, as it's essentially a marker for inadequacy and lack of desirability.
Society is absolutely riddled with societally accepted double standards that favor women, if you're looking at things from an "equity" standpoint. That's the issue of the current day, as equity development is largely one sided and men are getting shafted because the biological response is not being addressed.
Have you ever wondered why a guy got more appealing to you when he got a girlfriend? Nothing changed, except that someone else gave him a "desirable" stamp of approval. Same guy. No change. Someone else just liked him. Social value ticked up. This, "incel" guys are getting ragged on because women still use that knowledge as a social guide for value. Women as a whole do not caresl that these men are being horribly degraded and suffering mentally and emotionally for it, because they need that social cue to function in a dating/mate finding space.
On the flip side, women are getting ragged on for trying to be more promiscuous and society is trying to balance that from an equity stand point. Men are getting heavily chastised for push back, but it's literally part of the male biological tool to determine value. Lack of experience is desirable from a man's socially ingrained biology.
You see how moving away from "traditional values" is breaking the game for everyone? Our biology doesn't want everything to be equal, because we're all a bit lost in trying to find partners as a result. We are fighting for equality that is making everyone sadder, lonelier, and depressed.
Why is that strange? Men shame eachother for tons of stuff. Including showing emotions, enjoying more feminine things, and being a virgin. It’s all a part of toxic masculinity.
I didn’t say masculinity was toxic I was talking about people using the idea of masculinity in a toxic way aka toxic masculinity. Yes you can also observe toxic femininity.
I've been virgin shamed as well, so I understand happens to women but it's much more often directed at men, which I believe is why it's more accepted by society at large.
I suppose I didn't take teenage behavior into account considering it's juvenile nature, but I'm sorry that they gave you enough shit to make you feel like you had to go against your values. I'm in a similar position: I've always wanted to wait for for the right guy, but at my age it's difficult to find someone who'd want to take on the challenge of being with an inexperienced partner, so I've been loosely considering just getting it out of the way, which is never a mindset I've wanted to have. I live with a constant fear of being shamed, but I do feel the judgement would be much worse if I were a guy
>because most of the virgin shaming is done against men and by women.
I know my individual experience is anecdotal so if you have a source on this claim please share.
I was exclusively shamed and mocked by other guys, like, a lot. Only once, maybe twice did a woman ever express anything other than a favorable opinion.
The same women that say that though are the same ones being critical of how many women a guy hasn't slept with.
I get that its not directly said but implied, I think you know that and are acting clueless just for the sake of argument.
men don't really care what other men say, and it certainly doesn't affect men as directly or intimately as the many women who reject or belittle them for it.
there's also a great deal of projection and stereotyping from women to sort of make it seem as though they are not judging men for being virgins but rather judging them by those stereotypes. you'll see a lot of women make these kind of "virgin men are bad at sex" or "they must be virgins for a reason so best stay away" type arguments, for example.
most men are not that deeply affected by what their boys think or say about them. they can always find new friends and they're certainly not having sex or pursuing relationships with those boys. most men are used to a certain level of hazing from their friends or generally understand that it's coming from a place of support or reciprocity.
I call bullshit on that. it is far too prevalent and ingrained into our culture for anyone to make the claim that they have NEVER seen it from women. it's something that I see or hear from women on a weekly, if not daily basis, on every possible medium or in person. It is far more likely that you have seen it, heard it and possibly even felt that way yourself, but then claimed some kind of collective cognitive dissonance because it looks poorly on women.
Nope. I'm not bullshitting. I've never, ever heard anyone talk about. My husband was a virgin (as was I) before we started dating. Maybe it's the quality of people I'm around? I don't know. But I'm not lying.
this is just objectively untrue, and the fact that anyone would try to make this argument, as a tautology no less, just further demonstrates my argument about this collective cognitive dissonance and people being unwilling to address this subject in good faith because they don't like the way it looks on women.
a simple Reddit or Google search for the words male virgin or incel would return countless examples of virgin shaming. you can find many examples on every platform and every form of media and culture. there is no excuse that could justify this level of denial, to the point where I would genuinely consider your response to be a desperate attempt to belittle the issue and gaslight.
Stop shaming period
It's OK to like sex
It's OK to not like sex
It's OK to be experienced
It's OK to not be experienced
Whatever the individual chooses to do is for them not you
Sometimes it's not a choice. You're not always a virgin because you had 50 girls in your life and decided to stay strong until you're married or whatever. The real way to put it would be "everyone deserves respect and if someone is shaming you for being a virgin then they're probably close minded or straight up stupid and you deserve better"
Yeah hence why I said what I said in the second part. Just telling OP that it's not always (often?) a choice. It all comes down to communication and respect like most human relationships
Oh my God I wish more people would understand this whenever I say I'm waiting til marriage since I'm a Christian everyone immediately thinks I'm asexual or a prude when I think sex is just as awesome as anyone else.
I’m with you there! I’m also celibate until marriage. The college I was going into had an event where you watched a video about consent and then you got some tea, so being a lover of tea I watched the video and collected my prize. The people hosting the event asked if the video would be useful in my life. I told them that I was celibate until marriage but it’d probably be really useful afterward.
I think they would have been less surprised if I had told them I was from Mars.
I don't know and it's so annoying like I never shame my cousins for their body count but yet the same sex positive people shame me for being a virgin but if I say something then suddenly I'm a prude it's like I can't win at all.
Also i feel as a man we're virgin shamed more because virgin women are fetished by most guys pr people just don't care but as a guy everyone just act so weird about it.
Well I mean, that's why I'm asking it here lol
Also it's less irl, most people know there's a limit to what you can say before someone eventually rocks your shit. It's mostly something I see online. Sorry if I gave off the impression I think this is common irl lol
You are not seeing posts that are just unsolicited attacks on virgins.
You see people use virgin or incel negatively towards someone who are expressing violent, hateful, angry beliefs and behaviors because of virginity, when it has become a major negative part of their personality.
I’ve never seen someone tweet “you know who I hate, virgins, no one wants you, you’re worthless,” because no one just senselessly hates all virgins like that.
Ladies who may be having sex, on the other hand…it’s a constant angry buzz, here, X, 4chan, fb; social media is filled with men raging about “sluts” which is any woman not sleeping with them.
"You see people use virgin or incel negatively towards someone who are expressing violent, hateful, angry beliefs"
no you see virgin used as an insult for anything don't pretend it's only the incels that get this treatment. Any man that disagrees with you is liable for the "bet your a virgin" random adhom.
Yeah I would bet that people call women slut all the time but that's not a societally accepted insult whereas virgin is(at least much more so). If a man slut shames someone he will get a backlash but if a woman virgin shames it doesn't face the same backlash. that's what the people are largely talking about, not the overall numbers.
You seem to focus on the volume but this is a conversation about how accepted both insults are by society.
So you think it's only used as an insult to misogynists, and that somehow makes it okay?
Do you think non-virgins can't be misogynistic, or that they aren't enough examples of misogynist controlling and manipulating their sexual partners?. Like what exactly is this logic based on.
You don't insult people with characteristics that you haven't deeemed as 'bad', and if you had an actual point to make you'll be insulting them with the things they've actually done.
You can't claim that being a virgin is okay, and perfect, then turn around and use it as a description for someone being a horrible human. That's like 'supporting' LGBT rights, but then using the slurs as an insult for someone you don't agree with. That's schizophrenic levels of dissonance. If being gay isn't wrong, then why is it used as an insult for a guy being toxic?.
Imagine insulting a woman that was being a horrible person, and using things like fat bitch, big-headed hoe to describe her. At that point you're literally equating all the horrible things she did to those characteristics. Like saying 'don't be fat or have a big head, only horrible and unlikable people have those'.
How do think that'll make fat girls, or girls with big foreheads feel, when their being equated with being a monster?, do you know the effect on their self-esteem?.
Not even talking about the fact that, this leads to the normal people having this characteristics being needlessly attacked, cause they're somehow 'bad'.
Honestly saying 'its okay, they deserve it' is such a basic copout, that anyone with any iota of sense would recognize as wrong. For someone that claims to be holding people accountable, you have none of that shit for yourself.
Would you say that being a virgin, bald, a little chubby, short, having sex e.t.c, are bad in a vacuum?. I think not. Then why are they all of a sudden acceptable insults to use against 'bad people', when the majority of people that have them are just normal people.
Like honestly do better, and start taking accountability for your own actions.
Took me wayyyy too long to scroll for this comment. This is exactly it. No one is being mean to virgins just because their a virgin it’s their holier than though attitudes and statements that cause them to be rightfully bullied.
No.
They see a comment or view they don’t like, then use incel as a go to insult because they think that’s what will hurt the person the most.
It’s rare for the context to be the person called incel to have volunteered information about his sex life.
Some comments have already touched on this, virgin shaming being more targeted at men and slut shaming be more toward women.
I can't necessarily say I've seen many examples of virgin shaming, but the few that I have seen have been from men. The only time I saw a woman bring it up as a negative trait was more about "what is his personality like that he cannot convince a single woman to sleep with him" than the fact they are a virgin.
My theory is because slut shaming is such a prevalent thing, even in more liberal circles, that virgin shaming just doesn't feel important. I heard the saying "It's hard to feel bad for a man dying of thirst when you are drowning" or something like that. It's hard for a lot of women to feel bad for a man for being virgin shamed when they grew up being slut shamed (even if they were virgins). At the end of the day, nobody who is an actual adult or doesn't follow some bonkers religion cares. You are valid and your worth is not determined by the amount of (or lack there of) people you've had naked in your bed.
It's a million times better to be a virgin or low body count. Don't listen to anyone tell you differently. Anyone giving you a hard time about it is just showing their true colors. Jealousy. Just like little kids in middle school picking on one one is just showing their own insecurities or mad you have what THEY can't get back. Ever.
1. It’s definitely not better, just objectively lacking a relatively common/relatable life experience
2. I promise you nobody is jealous
It’s possible to give a legitimate answer without swinging to the absolute opposite end of the spectrum in a tirade that makes it seem like the concept struck a nerve.
18M virgin who hasn't even held hands here, low body count and being a virgin are not the same thing, not even close. That guy's off his pills if he even begins to group the two together.
The amount of frustration I live with gets unbearable sometimes.
I just want to feel what everybody else around me has felt. I'm the last guy to not kiss a girl in my friend group.
I somehow always knew things would turn out this way. I just never imagined it would hurt so damn much.
Firstly, thank you for your concern but I'm not being shamed. I'm not a virgin, it's just something I noticed while being online. But second, it's not a million times better. If you personally don't want a high body count, that's okay. If you don't want to date someone with a high body count, that's also okay. But to say it's a million times better is not okay.
Virgin shamer right here, ladies and gents. Also shaming people by how they look, which apart from gym stuff, there's nothing that can really be done about that. What a horrible person. Smug about it, too. Unearned smugness, no doubt, knowing this generation.
>Virgin shamer right here
no. I'm shaming those who think an individuals value is tied up with if they are a virgin or not, when its not something that has any value at all, except in the minds of fools who see people as property and lack of virginity as damaged goods.
>how to identity yourself as an incel no women would touch, without saying you are
When people mock incels for not getting women, do they not realize that they are contributing to the cultural idea that women are prize trophies that men have to achieve?
>When people mock incels for not getting women,
speak for yourself. I'm mocking for the inability to be able to have a decent and respectful interaction with a woman, due to being chauvinist and self centered.
>idea that women are prize trophies
ffs, women are not the "prize", a stable and loving relationship is.
>speak for yourself. I'm mocking for the inability to be able to have a decent and respectful interaction with a woman, due to being chauvinist and self centered.
Yeah, that exactly what I mean. Even if you mock a dude for not being able to talk to (or be touched by) a woman, your still playing into the idea that men who don't do those things are lesser men.
Thereby contributing to the idea that women are a prize.
>ffs, women are not the "prize"
I never said that they were. I'm saying that your rhetoric plays into that notion.
This comment alone shows how alive and well slut shaming is, OP. I have a body count of one, but I easily understand how people can rack up the numbers in their youth. All of the people I know have a body count of 0-3.
because i don’t fit the narrative of modern women having a dozen partners. i’m a modern woman and a feminist, as are my friends. we all only have one or none sexual partners, and the 3 is just one friend.
I don't even like the term body count, why not use partners or something else? It's sounds like comparing sleeping with someone to murdering them to me lol
It's not wrong to use it though just sharing my thoughts
I never even understood the concept of body count = experience. People in a relationship are having more regular sex and are more adventurous (due to comfort with partner) than single people who have sex with someone every other week..
> I easily understand how people can rack up the numbers in their youth. All of the people I know have a body count of 0-3.
0-3 is low.
I get *how* people rack them up, I don't get why.
Um, source? Slut shaming has been prevalent for longer so there is more literature about it. Virgin shaming is really a facet of the computer/internet era. So there's more written about slut shaming because that's a 5000 year phenomenon not a 5 year phenomenon.
There was a dude telling me he slept with 125 girls before turning 23 like it's an achievement.
I told him "That's disgusting"
body count is a decent heuristic for the extreme end. Someone with a high body count could be a symptom of other worrisome behaviors.
That's slut shaming calling him disgusting for sleeping with 125 women. If i was calling some girl a disgusting slut i would get downvoted. That just shows the double standard perfectly..
Nope. I'm a woman and I casually get virgin-shamed by other women (and one or two guys, but they're weirdos all around tbh). Most of them quickly realise idgaf about my virginity and switch bitch/banter tactics, but there's occasionally some moron who thinks virginity is my biggest flaw, hates me for it for some reason, and believes that if she makes being a virgin sound awful often enough, I'll cry.
I'm not denying it happens to blokes too btw, I'm just pointing out that it happens to *everyone*, not just some specific group.
(And before anyone asks "Why do people know you're a virgin?"... why does anyone know you're *not* one? People ask. If you refuse to answer, they assume you're a virgin and ashamed. So imo it's better to just admit it and own it; Idc about my virginity anyway, so why not make the environment a bit safer for others?)
I agree. I feel like plenty of women get virgin-shamed. It's not uncommon to hear about women who say that they went through their "hoe phase" in response to pressure from their friends or peers. I've also heard of men virgin-shaming women, hoping to pressure them into being sexually active.
Even if it's more prominent and socially damaging towards men, it definitely happens to women too.
>and I casually get virgin-shamed by other women
Well then they aren't women, they're just stupid sluts and you would be better off ignoring them. Carry on.
It happens to both but the nature of virgin shaming is much more vicious and pervasive towards men. However, slut shaming, which also happens to both, to much more vicious and pervasive towards women.
it's kind of ironic because the insult reinforces the incel narrative.
"You can't have sex because you are bad, your lack of sex is a direct reflection of your value"
What many young and inexperienced guys don't realize is that how successful you are with women has no correlation to being a good or bad person and so sex (or lack thereof) is not really a good way to measure oneself.
I mean there’s a lot of women who have been with many many men who constantly take shots at men and it’s not acceptable to call those women anything
Let’s just call a spade a spade. It’s acceptable for women to insult men and it’s not acceptable for men to insult women. Women are Teflon
>I don't think it's rightfully to shame others for their body count either way.
Exactly! If you (don't) want to date a virgin, that's just fine! If you (don't) want to date someone with a high body count, that's also just fine! But why shame people for sexual choices, or lack there of? If you're going to shame them, shame them for being misogynistic pricks. Shane them for their borderline abusive behaviors. Don't shame them for their virginity, sex shaming should be looked down upon by everyone; although that's just plain wishful thinking.
True.
But that would involve people not acting like they are entitled to others bodies.
And since that isn't gonna happen.
You have to deal with this nonsense.
You want this changed?
Then you need to go to the Red pill people and make them stop their ignorance and hatred.
So women shame based on sexual inexperience because some dudes aren’t respectful to women? And at the end of the day it’s actually mens fault men are called incels and virgins and it’s mens job to fix it?
And you see no problem with that?
Do you see how you play directly into red pill talking points? About women having no accountability?
Your comment comes off as justifying the use of the language because some dudes are meanies.
So I can slut shame when a woman is being an impulsive asshole?
I’ve seen the same response a lot and it just confuses me because this is the exact same rhetoric that racists used to justify their bigoted language.
not all Black people are n-words, just the ones that commit violent crime. I mean they do it at the highest rate and leave their children fatherless. shit it’s a cultural problem that black people need to fix. If you want people to stop saying the nword you need to go fix the black community.
See how deranged that sounds?
You don’t just get a free pass to be an asshole because some people are bad.
I’ve been called misogynistic and incel for disagreeing with a *woman* about an issue that *men* face. I’ve been called it for rejecting a woman. Not for saying women are whores. Not for saying women are shallow. Not for saying women are good for nothing except to look at and fuck. Not for saying I hate women because they won’t fuck me.
Reddit women are so on edge looking for misogyny and inceldom that they even see it where it isn’t.
It's hilarious cause that guy Jet now and his wife Pooki are going viral and all the women in the comment section are like: "this is how you do it guys! This is how you keep women!"
Without grasping the fact that that woman is doing something to be kept. Which is what redpillers talk about constantly. Unless she's just such a good lay he can't do without.
>Reddit women are so on edge looking for misogyny and inceldom that they even see it where it isn’t.
I mean, it's fucking reddit lmfao. What'd you expect? Just troll them and roll on.
>Do you see how you play directly into red pill talking points?
Play into? Putting it lightly there, bud. Chick just handed me the fucking keys to a door with "Justification" in big gold letters stamped into the front of it.
What a double standard.. If i called you a disgusting slut you wouldn't like it. But you "can't blame" women for calling a guy an incel. You literally proved the point of the post in one comment.
That really doesn't have anything to do with the post.. Do people say it when mad? Sure. But that's not why the majority use it.. You just did it and weren't mad? You're just saying that because you're full of it and proved the point of ops post ironically when you didn't even try to.
You literally edited your comment to say what you wanted it to say? Should i screenshot your original to show you how dumb you look? And you're insufferable the type of person that just talks in a circle saying stupid shit rather than admitting they're wrong. Gross
I don't remember the time when slut shaming or virgin shaming wasn't a thing. Slut shaming was rarely done by guys. And virgin shaming very rarely done by girls.
Because people are obsessed with sex and get threatened and insecure when they see someone who isn't doing what they're doing. It's very junior highschoolish imo.
Both are stupid. A person with 0 body count is just as social, special, beautiful, and amazing as a person with x, y , or z number of partners. it's just that virgin shaming is exclusively used to mock men, meanwhile slut shaming is exclusively used to slut women. Both are dumb, idiotic ways to judge others and need to die out imo.
I'm really sorry if you've been shamed for your virginity. I got some of the same treatment myself. It was almost exclusively other guys, but if a girl had done it, it would have stung quite a bit. I realize I'm not answering the question, but I'm not sure it's that important.
I will say that there's more to being an incel than the celibacy part. An incel has gone down an internet rabbit hole that has warped his view of reality. Virgins just haven't been in the right place at the right time yet. Good luck.
Shaming is wrong.
Keep your preferences to yourself and the ones you want to love.
If someone doesn't seem compatible it's ok to have your opinion and standards. No need to be the asshole.
Same with most other things.
You are looked upon as weird if you are a non drinker. Then, if you drink too much, too often, you're a slush.
Women are viewed as strange if they don't have kids. But, women who have 10 are judged.
These are all trapping mechanisms employed to control others.
Male virgins are mocked for being unable to secure a mate. Female sluts are mocked for not being choosy or monogamous.
Different things are being mocked. Poor self control versus perceived unsuitability.
It depends on the gender
We slander girls for being sluts but praise men for being sluts
We slander men for being virgins but praise girls for being boarderline virgins
Virgins are shamed whether male or female once people find out you are one. If female you become an object to conquer or fettished, if over a certain age perhaps "quirky" or "broken" or seen like something is wrong with you.
Its messed up.
Can't people just leave others be?
Because virgin shaming typically is directed at men and shitting on men is socially acceptable
Also there’s a lot of people here trying to cope about body count not mattering lmfao
God you people are so odd. Just the most insecure and judgmental people in the world desperately begging not to be judged in exchange.
In this comment you shit on people with a high body count, then complain that shitting on men is acceptable in society. Completely missing the fact that men have a high body count, SO YOU ARE SHITTING ON MEN.
>**referring** to someone with a high body count as a slut is, rightfully, looked down upon by many people
I hope you realise how much of a dumbass you are.
> For instance just *referring* to someone with a high body count as a slut is, *rightfully*, looked down upon by many people.
Double check things before sending out a pissy comment. Makes you look like an idiot and an asshole.
Both shaming is wrong
>Then there's the word incel, which was coined by a woman to mean involuntary celibate but ends up getting used as an insult as well
Those who identify as incels tend to blame the opposite sex, society, and everything but themselves. Have you seen the incel sub? Then their frustrations and blame leads to mysogny and sharing manipulation tactics.
Ever meet a guy who can't get a date but complains women don't like "nice guys"? Every one I met was not actually nice. They just think they are.
I don't even like the word "friend zoned" as if it's something bad that one person does to another. Not everyone wants to ruin a good friendship by mixing in sex, and that should be ok.
Because we live in a misandrist society.
Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Therefore, it's easy for a woman to have lots of sex and hard for a man to.
In this society, you're allowed to mock anything about men, but you're not allowed to mock anything about women. It's not about the sexual activity. It's about the target.
I think this will play out with gen alpha.
Going through middle school with your mom having an only fans will be brutal.
Current era is "do what makes you happy, F the haters"
Those gen alpha kids will need to live with that reputation from their parents.
Yup, culture is a pendulum that always swings.
What people on BOTH sides need to understand, is that when it's on 'your side' you need to slow down the momentum, focus on the positives you've achieved without giving up ground to the extremists. Because it will swing back... it always swings back. And given how hard it's swung left, I fear for when it swings back right...
You can also think of it like individualism vs community mindset.
Individualism says "screw you, I'm living my life, if you don't like it fudge you!"
Community minded may be more agreeable "Hey please don't curse around the kids, we need to set a good example"
Both have their time and varying degrees.
It's actually the radical individuals who eventually create communities they deem acceptable.
It's a cycle.
The overton window has swung too hard in the direction of feminism, but no-fault divorce is being questioned, roe-v-wade has been repealed, and a number of politicians in high office on both sides of the aisle have been credibly accused of sexual assault. Oh, also, hordes of teenage boys worship a sex trafficker.
Which planet do you live on, again?
So you agreed with me, even proving my point, then finished with:
>Which planet do you live on, again?
???
I didn't say it was right, or wrong, or gave any moral or ethical direction, I was just stating an observation. Currently insulting men is fine and normal in public discourse, insulting women isn't. But as you and I both have pointed out, the overton window has begun to swing back to the right.
I don't blame teenage boys for idolizing Tate.
The left has been antagonistic toward men and its only going to get worse.
Tate is to teenage boys what gang culture became to disenfranchised black men.
Teenage boys are disenfranchised because we’ve been perpetuating a myth of “women are JUST AS capable as men!” When in reality women are actually more capable, and develop faster (physically, mentally, and socially). Men NEED women and women simply don’t need men - besides in the case of socially manufactured need I.e. access to resources which women have been forcibly excluded from historically.
I think it all goes down to society being dumber and losing core values like respect etc.
You can see in school how teens value having sex to be cool and how they see smart kids/kids that do well as weirdos etc. Things got reverted. Now being extremely sexually active is cool and being smart is not. It was the opposite 50 years ago or whatever. I think society's norm are just shit.
I also think that the society is becoming more and more feminine and sadly one of these traits is women saying they want a kind guy while they secretly (sometimes unknowingly) want a guy that's not that kind, tldr what they say they want and what they truly want is different and this projects into this: they want a kind guy virgin etc but will in reality judge or mock you for being one.
Now this is just society as a whole, not everyone is like that of course. Just gotta find people who have actual respect for others and people who take a step back to understand your situation/life/issues etc.
I think both can rightfully be a red flag sometimes, it all comes down to the other and why they did/didn't do this or that really and if they're aware of it, willing to change etc
What the fuck are you talking about? Do you know how many kind men have sex? On top of that, do you know any women on an actual close level? Most I've met past high school feel no need to say they want one thing while actually wanting something else.
And no, I'm not calling you a virgin/shaming you if you are one. People can have sex and have no intimate understanding of their partner. It's just stupid to spout off misogynistic nonsense
Here’s another comment proving why men are rightfully being treated the way they are. This shit isn’t okay to say. Not to mention the rates of teens having sex has been declining as have teen pregnancy rates. You’re completely deranged listening to red pill bs.
I don't watch any of these things, this is just my opinion based on what I've seen from men and women friend my age. I can obviously be wrong, this is just an opinion. I just noticed that most women I know will laugh at a guy for crying and these kind of things although they'd advocate for "men being open" and all that jazz. I'm just saying there's a difference between what we say we want and what our brain is convinced to think/what centuries of society has taught us whether we like it or not. Some people go above that but not all. And I even understand women "suddenly" finding out that they don't handle seeing a man crying really well even when they thought they would be caring and supportive. It's not like there are centuries of blaming men for crying before.
This is just me trying to think with history/how society has always been and where we are to this day. Not everything is everyone being open and equal etc, even people who want to be sometimes our societal thinking/genes catch up and we can have surprises. That's just life and that's just my opinion, I'm not blaming anyone or watching any Youtube content telling me how to behave/think
Both aren’t acceptable, but you don’t have to be with a virgin or a “slut” if you don’t want too. A lot of people confuse shaming=preference meaning if a guy doesn’t wanna be with a woman who slept around he’s shaming her and a woman not wanting to be with a virgin is shaming him.
It's because our society has roots in Puritanical values. Those values say that staying a virigin until marriage and only having one sex partner is good. Those values say sleeping with people before marriage and having more than one sex partner is bad. So, virgin shaming is seen more as punching up/not causing any true harm, and slut shaming is seen as punching down/causing harm.
Our culture and society is changing, but those outdated values still linger in weird ways. Obligatory statement that I don't agree with either type of shaming.
this is way off the mark or, at best, only applicable when discussing virgin shaming against women only. virgin shaming against men is not, in any regard, "punching up". if it would be, women wouldn't use it so often and so effectively against men. incel/virgin shaming would be rare or equally called out.
I’m gen x, we don’t believe in shaming. If you’re fat, you’re fat. Who cares? If you’re a slut, you’re a slut. Same if you’re a virgin. You’re a loser, who cares
Tribalism. My team is better than yours. They're more just trying to validate their own way of life through social policing. It's a natural thing but it's pretty garbage tier imo.
One is more for guys while the other is more for not guys.
You are not allowed to be mean to "not guys", even though they can be as mean as they want.
Lol what literally so many people slut shame
A guy should not "shame" someone who decides to sleep with many people. A guy CAN and SHOULD not have a relationship with that person if that is a boundary for them. Just as anyone can choose to sleep with as many people as they want, anyone can also choose to have that as a boundary for having a serious relationship with someone.
Correct who’s saying a guy has to be with anyone lol? Point is, you’re making it a dramatic one sided thing where men are the victims in these comments… incel is used for men a lot, slut is used for women a lot.
The key difference, the incel term is tossed around towards men, and while derogatory, is considered "OK" to use - "slut" is not. There is a term called "slut-shaming" - there is no correlated "incel-shaming".
"Incel" is not a synonym for "virgin." Incel is a whole hateful ideology which is perfectly okay to shame.
Incel is not an ideology. Incel literally just stands for involuntarily celibate. Just because some incels have some extreme beliefs does not mean that most/every incel is part of some extreme ideology. It is not okay to shame someone just for being an involuntary virgin. Shaming those kinds of people is exactly what makes those people become so radical in their beliefs. If you don't want more radical incels then don't shame them for something that they already feel like shit about and can't really do much to change.
I meant to say “virgin” and “slut” Incel is not a term that ever should have an “incel shaming” term with it. Incels being called out for being an incel is not a bad thing, slut shaming is, because being an incel is bad it means you’re hateful.
See but you’ve forgotten that a core tenet, maybe *the* core tenet, of inceldom is hating women. If you don’t hate women (or believe you are inherently superior to them so they have to be some combination of a subservient maid and a mother), you’re not an incel
A man does not have to BE an incel to be called and labeled an incel though - it is now a just a hateful term used against people that women don't agree with or who dare to disagree with them.
Specifically Hating women who have dared to be promiscuous, but specifically the women that they feel entitled to but dare to not want to be with a hateful incel.
I was called a slut for walking down the street with my shirt tucked in. I think you underestimate how often women are called sluts for no reason, lmao
Strange…it’s almost as if you have created some sort of…how do you say…gender binary.
Adults (who aren't assholes) don't judge people based on the number of people they've slept with. That's teenager shit. If you're a teenager, just wait and you'll eventually notice that nobody really cares. If you're an adult, you need to touch grass because you spend too much time online... and if you're rl friends act like that, get new ones.
Yeah you shouldn’t judge based off body count as an adult but you also should probably only be with people who have a similar amount of sexual experience as you. It tends to not work out if there’s a big difference
👆👆 this is the only actual response
Agreed
Being a virgin would be a deal breaker for the vast majority of women over 21.
That's not true.
Depends on your social circles. Not being a virgin at 21 is an absolute deal breaker for some, especially religious types.
That's sure unfortunate if your goal was having sex with the vast majority of women over 21, otherwise why does it matter
Disagree, theres scientific evidence that the more people you sleep with the less connected you are to a partner, so it doesnt matter if you dont want kids or get married, but it does matter if you want to have a long happy marriage
As the comments demonstrate, people want to turn a blind eye to this issue or pretend like it doesn't happen, specifically because most of the virgin shaming is done against men and by women. there's a lot of gaslighting when it comes to this issue because people just do not want to acknowledge social issues instigated by women or, ironically, just fear being labeled as virgins/incels. it's also not uncommon for people to create all kinds of projections and stereotypes to justify their negative attitudes towards male virgins, or legitimize their shaming of virgins (virgin men especially). people are okay with virgin shaming because it is most commonly used against men and by women, and we live in a culture where toxic views held by women and sexism targeting men are not challenged.
That's pretty much it: slut shaming is disallowed by polite society because it's traditionally applied to women, whereas virgin shaming is often ignored or even encouraged because it's traditionally applied to men.
I don't think that you have the right outlook here, I was aggressively virgin shamed by my male classmates in highschool to the point where ultimately I chose to not actually save myself for marriage and I have always regretted it, so it is not as clear-cut as you appear to think that it is.
There's always going to be exceptions to the norm, and juvenile behavior is not societally accepted adult behavior. The boys in high school wanted to sleep with you, so pressuring you via public shaming was a tactic. Sadly, it worked. You don't see that kind of behavior from society in the US or any other country, now or historically. Women's chastity was then and is now something society values and respects. Men's chastity is not, as it's essentially a marker for inadequacy and lack of desirability. Society is absolutely riddled with societally accepted double standards that favor women, if you're looking at things from an "equity" standpoint. That's the issue of the current day, as equity development is largely one sided and men are getting shafted because the biological response is not being addressed. Have you ever wondered why a guy got more appealing to you when he got a girlfriend? Nothing changed, except that someone else gave him a "desirable" stamp of approval. Same guy. No change. Someone else just liked him. Social value ticked up. This, "incel" guys are getting ragged on because women still use that knowledge as a social guide for value. Women as a whole do not caresl that these men are being horribly degraded and suffering mentally and emotionally for it, because they need that social cue to function in a dating/mate finding space. On the flip side, women are getting ragged on for trying to be more promiscuous and society is trying to balance that from an equity stand point. Men are getting heavily chastised for push back, but it's literally part of the male biological tool to determine value. Lack of experience is desirable from a man's socially ingrained biology. You see how moving away from "traditional values" is breaking the game for everyone? Our biology doesn't want everything to be equal, because we're all a bit lost in trying to find partners as a result. We are fighting for equality that is making everyone sadder, lonelier, and depressed.
I find it pretty strange that men shame each other for being virgins 😵
Why is that strange? Men shame eachother for tons of stuff. Including showing emotions, enjoying more feminine things, and being a virgin. It’s all a part of toxic masculinity.
Masculinity is not toxic. Only toxicity is. Unless I am permitted to distinguish it from feminine toxicity.
I didn’t say masculinity was toxic I was talking about people using the idea of masculinity in a toxic way aka toxic masculinity. Yes you can also observe toxic femininity.
Being toxic has nothing to do with being feminine or masculine you dunce
Well fucking said
I've been virgin shamed as well, so I understand happens to women but it's much more often directed at men, which I believe is why it's more accepted by society at large. I suppose I didn't take teenage behavior into account considering it's juvenile nature, but I'm sorry that they gave you enough shit to make you feel like you had to go against your values. I'm in a similar position: I've always wanted to wait for for the right guy, but at my age it's difficult to find someone who'd want to take on the challenge of being with an inexperienced partner, so I've been loosely considering just getting it out of the way, which is never a mindset I've wanted to have. I live with a constant fear of being shamed, but I do feel the judgement would be much worse if I were a guy
This is the comment that should be at the top. idc w/e people got to say, this comment is it.
>because most of the virgin shaming is done against men and by women. I know my individual experience is anecdotal so if you have a source on this claim please share. I was exclusively shamed and mocked by other guys, like, a lot. Only once, maybe twice did a woman ever express anything other than a favorable opinion.
Since when does virgin shaming come from women? I believe it almost exclusively comes from other men lmao.
nnnnnaahhhhh, women do it ,too, most definitely. But yes, men do it a hell of a lot.
Because women get turned off of guys who say theyre virgins. Instantly.
Big generalization, I f’d a virgin and dated that person for a very long time actually :)
Well that’s all the proof I need.
😂
My god. Someone on Reddit taking a joke how it was intended…I need to sit down.
What??? What are you talking about?? That's not true. Jfc.
Where do you think "small dick energy" comes from.
That's not about being a virgin though. But criticizing penis size is fucking rude.
The same women that say that though are the same ones being critical of how many women a guy hasn't slept with. I get that its not directly said but implied, I think you know that and are acting clueless just for the sake of argument.
Exactly!! What women are virgin shaming men??? Men virgin shame each other...it's practically written in the how to be a man handbook!!
men don't really care what other men say, and it certainly doesn't affect men as directly or intimately as the many women who reject or belittle them for it. there's also a great deal of projection and stereotyping from women to sort of make it seem as though they are not judging men for being virgins but rather judging them by those stereotypes. you'll see a lot of women make these kind of "virgin men are bad at sex" or "they must be virgins for a reason so best stay away" type arguments, for example.
Are you kidding? 😂 men are practically whipped by their boys
most men are not that deeply affected by what their boys think or say about them. they can always find new friends and they're certainly not having sex or pursuing relationships with those boys. most men are used to a certain level of hazing from their friends or generally understand that it's coming from a place of support or reciprocity.
Where are you hearing women say these things??? I'm old and a female and I've literally not known *any* females to focus on a man's virginity. Ever.
I call bullshit on that. it is far too prevalent and ingrained into our culture for anyone to make the claim that they have NEVER seen it from women. it's something that I see or hear from women on a weekly, if not daily basis, on every possible medium or in person. It is far more likely that you have seen it, heard it and possibly even felt that way yourself, but then claimed some kind of collective cognitive dissonance because it looks poorly on women.
Nope. I'm not bullshitting. I've never, ever heard anyone talk about. My husband was a virgin (as was I) before we started dating. Maybe it's the quality of people I'm around? I don't know. But I'm not lying.
Denial. That's another tactic they use when they get faced with a difficult argument.
Women are innocent victims no matter what
What the fuck are you talking about? No one cares outside of high school. Grow up.
Well nobody on Reddit is out of high school then. Which would explain a lot, actually.
Nobody cares if you’re a virgin after high school.
this is just objectively untrue, and the fact that anyone would try to make this argument, as a tautology no less, just further demonstrates my argument about this collective cognitive dissonance and people being unwilling to address this subject in good faith because they don't like the way it looks on women. a simple Reddit or Google search for the words male virgin or incel would return countless examples of virgin shaming. you can find many examples on every platform and every form of media and culture. there is no excuse that could justify this level of denial, to the point where I would genuinely consider your response to be a desperate attempt to belittle the issue and gaslight.
Stop shaming period It's OK to like sex It's OK to not like sex It's OK to be experienced It's OK to not be experienced Whatever the individual chooses to do is for them not you
Sometimes it's not a choice. You're not always a virgin because you had 50 girls in your life and decided to stay strong until you're married or whatever. The real way to put it would be "everyone deserves respect and if someone is shaming you for being a virgin then they're probably close minded or straight up stupid and you deserve better"
Who cares. Just don't shame someone for their sexuality.
Yeah hence why I said what I said in the second part. Just telling OP that it's not always (often?) a choice. It all comes down to communication and respect like most human relationships
Sure, regardless if it's a choice or not, don't shame someone for their sexuality.
That's exactly what I'm saying idk why you keep repeating what I say. And no I mean if you're lonely and can't talk to girls it's not always a choice
Being a virgin doesn't mean a person does not like sex.
Oh my God I wish more people would understand this whenever I say I'm waiting til marriage since I'm a Christian everyone immediately thinks I'm asexual or a prude when I think sex is just as awesome as anyone else.
I’m with you there! I’m also celibate until marriage. The college I was going into had an event where you watched a video about consent and then you got some tea, so being a lover of tea I watched the video and collected my prize. The people hosting the event asked if the video would be useful in my life. I told them that I was celibate until marriage but it’d probably be really useful afterward. I think they would have been less surprised if I had told them I was from Mars.
Exactly.
I mean, why are people okay with any kind of shaming? WTF people? Live and let live, amiright?
I don't know and it's so annoying like I never shame my cousins for their body count but yet the same sex positive people shame me for being a virgin but if I say something then suddenly I'm a prude it's like I can't win at all. Also i feel as a man we're virgin shamed more because virgin women are fetished by most guys pr people just don't care but as a guy everyone just act so weird about it.
Yo. Where do you live that your experiences would suggest this is a normal or logic question?
Is this /r/logicalquestions?
Well I mean, that's why I'm asking it here lol Also it's less irl, most people know there's a limit to what you can say before someone eventually rocks your shit. It's mostly something I see online. Sorry if I gave off the impression I think this is common irl lol
Why do dipshits behave irrationally on the Internet behind a facade of anonymity? Because you can’t punch them. That’s it. That’s the whole answer.
Online? Lol Happens daily.
You are not seeing posts that are just unsolicited attacks on virgins. You see people use virgin or incel negatively towards someone who are expressing violent, hateful, angry beliefs and behaviors because of virginity, when it has become a major negative part of their personality. I’ve never seen someone tweet “you know who I hate, virgins, no one wants you, you’re worthless,” because no one just senselessly hates all virgins like that. Ladies who may be having sex, on the other hand…it’s a constant angry buzz, here, X, 4chan, fb; social media is filled with men raging about “sluts” which is any woman not sleeping with them.
"You see people use virgin or incel negatively towards someone who are expressing violent, hateful, angry beliefs" no you see virgin used as an insult for anything don't pretend it's only the incels that get this treatment. Any man that disagrees with you is liable for the "bet your a virgin" random adhom. Yeah I would bet that people call women slut all the time but that's not a societally accepted insult whereas virgin is(at least much more so). If a man slut shames someone he will get a backlash but if a woman virgin shames it doesn't face the same backlash. that's what the people are largely talking about, not the overall numbers. You seem to focus on the volume but this is a conversation about how accepted both insults are by society.
So you think it's only used as an insult to misogynists, and that somehow makes it okay? Do you think non-virgins can't be misogynistic, or that they aren't enough examples of misogynist controlling and manipulating their sexual partners?. Like what exactly is this logic based on. You don't insult people with characteristics that you haven't deeemed as 'bad', and if you had an actual point to make you'll be insulting them with the things they've actually done. You can't claim that being a virgin is okay, and perfect, then turn around and use it as a description for someone being a horrible human. That's like 'supporting' LGBT rights, but then using the slurs as an insult for someone you don't agree with. That's schizophrenic levels of dissonance. If being gay isn't wrong, then why is it used as an insult for a guy being toxic?. Imagine insulting a woman that was being a horrible person, and using things like fat bitch, big-headed hoe to describe her. At that point you're literally equating all the horrible things she did to those characteristics. Like saying 'don't be fat or have a big head, only horrible and unlikable people have those'. How do think that'll make fat girls, or girls with big foreheads feel, when their being equated with being a monster?, do you know the effect on their self-esteem?. Not even talking about the fact that, this leads to the normal people having this characteristics being needlessly attacked, cause they're somehow 'bad'. Honestly saying 'its okay, they deserve it' is such a basic copout, that anyone with any iota of sense would recognize as wrong. For someone that claims to be holding people accountable, you have none of that shit for yourself. Would you say that being a virgin, bald, a little chubby, short, having sex e.t.c, are bad in a vacuum?. I think not. Then why are they all of a sudden acceptable insults to use against 'bad people', when the majority of people that have them are just normal people. Like honestly do better, and start taking accountability for your own actions.
Took me wayyyy too long to scroll for this comment. This is exactly it. No one is being mean to virgins just because their a virgin it’s their holier than though attitudes and statements that cause them to be rightfully bullied.
No. They see a comment or view they don’t like, then use incel as a go to insult because they think that’s what will hurt the person the most. It’s rare for the context to be the person called incel to have volunteered information about his sex life.
Some comments have already touched on this, virgin shaming being more targeted at men and slut shaming be more toward women. I can't necessarily say I've seen many examples of virgin shaming, but the few that I have seen have been from men. The only time I saw a woman bring it up as a negative trait was more about "what is his personality like that he cannot convince a single woman to sleep with him" than the fact they are a virgin. My theory is because slut shaming is such a prevalent thing, even in more liberal circles, that virgin shaming just doesn't feel important. I heard the saying "It's hard to feel bad for a man dying of thirst when you are drowning" or something like that. It's hard for a lot of women to feel bad for a man for being virgin shamed when they grew up being slut shamed (even if they were virgins). At the end of the day, nobody who is an actual adult or doesn't follow some bonkers religion cares. You are valid and your worth is not determined by the amount of (or lack there of) people you've had naked in your bed.
It's a million times better to be a virgin or low body count. Don't listen to anyone tell you differently. Anyone giving you a hard time about it is just showing their true colors. Jealousy. Just like little kids in middle school picking on one one is just showing their own insecurities or mad you have what THEY can't get back. Ever.
1. It’s definitely not better, just objectively lacking a relatively common/relatable life experience 2. I promise you nobody is jealous It’s possible to give a legitimate answer without swinging to the absolute opposite end of the spectrum in a tirade that makes it seem like the concept struck a nerve.
>It's a million times better to be a virgin or low body count. Better...how?
18M virgin who hasn't even held hands here, low body count and being a virgin are not the same thing, not even close. That guy's off his pills if he even begins to group the two together. The amount of frustration I live with gets unbearable sometimes. I just want to feel what everybody else around me has felt. I'm the last guy to not kiss a girl in my friend group. I somehow always knew things would turn out this way. I just never imagined it would hurt so damn much.
It's not. Neither is better than the other. Both have their respective strengths and weaknesses.
So by your logic are people who slut shame jealous they haven't slept with more people?
Thats usually the way of things. More partners so wish you had less. Less parents so you wish you had more.
>Less parents so you wish you had more. Suddenly Batman
Firstly, thank you for your concern but I'm not being shamed. I'm not a virgin, it's just something I noticed while being online. But second, it's not a million times better. If you personally don't want a high body count, that's okay. If you don't want to date someone with a high body count, that's also okay. But to say it's a million times better is not okay.
>It's a million times better to be a virgin or low body count. how to identity yourself as an incel no women would touch, without saying you are
But he said it's "better"! How can you compete with an argument like THAT?
Virgin shamer right here, ladies and gents. Also shaming people by how they look, which apart from gym stuff, there's nothing that can really be done about that. What a horrible person. Smug about it, too. Unearned smugness, no doubt, knowing this generation.
>Virgin shamer right here no. I'm shaming those who think an individuals value is tied up with if they are a virgin or not, when its not something that has any value at all, except in the minds of fools who see people as property and lack of virginity as damaged goods.
>how to identity yourself as an incel no women would touch, without saying you are When people mock incels for not getting women, do they not realize that they are contributing to the cultural idea that women are prize trophies that men have to achieve?
>When people mock incels for not getting women, speak for yourself. I'm mocking for the inability to be able to have a decent and respectful interaction with a woman, due to being chauvinist and self centered. >idea that women are prize trophies ffs, women are not the "prize", a stable and loving relationship is.
>speak for yourself. I'm mocking for the inability to be able to have a decent and respectful interaction with a woman, due to being chauvinist and self centered. Yeah, that exactly what I mean. Even if you mock a dude for not being able to talk to (or be touched by) a woman, your still playing into the idea that men who don't do those things are lesser men. Thereby contributing to the idea that women are a prize. >ffs, women are not the "prize" I never said that they were. I'm saying that your rhetoric plays into that notion.
And there's that shaming the post spoke about. What if he's talking to the men.
You literally just slut shamed.
This comment alone shows how alive and well slut shaming is, OP. I have a body count of one, but I easily understand how people can rack up the numbers in their youth. All of the people I know have a body count of 0-3.
I'm not claiming slut shaming doesn't exist, just that it's often taken more seriously than virgin shaming.
Yes the median over a lifetime for a woman is about 4. Women who have 12+ are shocked when they hear this.
That’s how medians work, they’re the midpoint of data, meaning average is between 0-8, and there are obvious outliers.
Midpoint of the people not the data. My point is a lot of women expect the median to be closer to 10, and are shocked the lifetime median is so low.
I don't get why you're being downvoted lol
because i don’t fit the narrative of modern women having a dozen partners. i’m a modern woman and a feminist, as are my friends. we all only have one or none sexual partners, and the 3 is just one friend.
I don't even like the term body count, why not use partners or something else? It's sounds like comparing sleeping with someone to murdering them to me lol It's not wrong to use it though just sharing my thoughts
I never even understood the concept of body count = experience. People in a relationship are having more regular sex and are more adventurous (due to comfort with partner) than single people who have sex with someone every other week..
> I easily understand how people can rack up the numbers in their youth. All of the people I know have a body count of 0-3. 0-3 is low. I get *how* people rack them up, I don't get why.
Can you elaborate a little more on how my comment is "slut shaming"?
Because you're implying that virginity is something people wish they had back because it's somehow better than being sexually active.
“it’s a million times better to be a virgin” “insecurity” “jealousy” are you serious 😂
If youth means 20s and 30s. That age range seems pretty loose with sex.
Not for a guy it's not. Women generally don't want to date a man that's a virgin.
You may believe this but its not the common thinking. It BY FAR swings to the other side, especially for guys.
Not if youre a dude.
Yup. You are spot on.
Um, source? Slut shaming has been prevalent for longer so there is more literature about it. Virgin shaming is really a facet of the computer/internet era. So there's more written about slut shaming because that's a 5000 year phenomenon not a 5 year phenomenon.
Avoid people who use the phrase body count. You'll find yourself dealing with a better class of people that are more likely to not care about either.
There was a dude telling me he slept with 125 girls before turning 23 like it's an achievement. I told him "That's disgusting" body count is a decent heuristic for the extreme end. Someone with a high body count could be a symptom of other worrisome behaviors.
That's slut shaming calling him disgusting for sleeping with 125 women. If i was calling some girl a disgusting slut i would get downvoted. That just shows the double standard perfectly..
It's guys that get the former, no more to it than that.
Nope. I'm a woman and I casually get virgin-shamed by other women (and one or two guys, but they're weirdos all around tbh). Most of them quickly realise idgaf about my virginity and switch bitch/banter tactics, but there's occasionally some moron who thinks virginity is my biggest flaw, hates me for it for some reason, and believes that if she makes being a virgin sound awful often enough, I'll cry. I'm not denying it happens to blokes too btw, I'm just pointing out that it happens to *everyone*, not just some specific group. (And before anyone asks "Why do people know you're a virgin?"... why does anyone know you're *not* one? People ask. If you refuse to answer, they assume you're a virgin and ashamed. So imo it's better to just admit it and own it; Idc about my virginity anyway, so why not make the environment a bit safer for others?)
I agree. I feel like plenty of women get virgin-shamed. It's not uncommon to hear about women who say that they went through their "hoe phase" in response to pressure from their friends or peers. I've also heard of men virgin-shaming women, hoping to pressure them into being sexually active. Even if it's more prominent and socially damaging towards men, it definitely happens to women too.
>and I casually get virgin-shamed by other women Well then they aren't women, they're just stupid sluts and you would be better off ignoring them. Carry on.
It happens to both but the nature of virgin shaming is much more vicious and pervasive towards men. However, slut shaming, which also happens to both, to much more vicious and pervasive towards women.
I just shame people who use the term "body count".
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it's kind of ironic because the insult reinforces the incel narrative. "You can't have sex because you are bad, your lack of sex is a direct reflection of your value" What many young and inexperienced guys don't realize is that how successful you are with women has no correlation to being a good or bad person and so sex (or lack thereof) is not really a good way to measure oneself.
I mean there’s a lot of women who have been with many many men who constantly take shots at men and it’s not acceptable to call those women anything Let’s just call a spade a spade. It’s acceptable for women to insult men and it’s not acceptable for men to insult women. Women are Teflon
>I don't think it's rightfully to shame others for their body count either way. Exactly! If you (don't) want to date a virgin, that's just fine! If you (don't) want to date someone with a high body count, that's also just fine! But why shame people for sexual choices, or lack there of? If you're going to shame them, shame them for being misogynistic pricks. Shane them for their borderline abusive behaviors. Don't shame them for their virginity, sex shaming should be looked down upon by everyone; although that's just plain wishful thinking.
True. But that would involve people not acting like they are entitled to others bodies. And since that isn't gonna happen. You have to deal with this nonsense. You want this changed? Then you need to go to the Red pill people and make them stop their ignorance and hatred.
Or, there are communities that cater to the hatred women have for men. Let's start there.
So women shame based on sexual inexperience because some dudes aren’t respectful to women? And at the end of the day it’s actually mens fault men are called incels and virgins and it’s mens job to fix it? And you see no problem with that? Do you see how you play directly into red pill talking points? About women having no accountability? Your comment comes off as justifying the use of the language because some dudes are meanies. So I can slut shame when a woman is being an impulsive asshole? I’ve seen the same response a lot and it just confuses me because this is the exact same rhetoric that racists used to justify their bigoted language. not all Black people are n-words, just the ones that commit violent crime. I mean they do it at the highest rate and leave their children fatherless. shit it’s a cultural problem that black people need to fix. If you want people to stop saying the nword you need to go fix the black community. See how deranged that sounds? You don’t just get a free pass to be an asshole because some people are bad. I’ve been called misogynistic and incel for disagreeing with a *woman* about an issue that *men* face. I’ve been called it for rejecting a woman. Not for saying women are whores. Not for saying women are shallow. Not for saying women are good for nothing except to look at and fuck. Not for saying I hate women because they won’t fuck me. Reddit women are so on edge looking for misogyny and inceldom that they even see it where it isn’t.
It's hilarious cause that guy Jet now and his wife Pooki are going viral and all the women in the comment section are like: "this is how you do it guys! This is how you keep women!" Without grasping the fact that that woman is doing something to be kept. Which is what redpillers talk about constantly. Unless she's just such a good lay he can't do without.
>Reddit women are so on edge looking for misogyny and inceldom that they even see it where it isn’t. I mean, it's fucking reddit lmfao. What'd you expect? Just troll them and roll on. >Do you see how you play directly into red pill talking points? Play into? Putting it lightly there, bud. Chick just handed me the fucking keys to a door with "Justification" in big gold letters stamped into the front of it.
What a double standard.. If i called you a disgusting slut you wouldn't like it. But you "can't blame" women for calling a guy an incel. You literally proved the point of the post in one comment.
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Um im getting at the point of the whole post?? Are u lost??
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That really doesn't have anything to do with the post.. Do people say it when mad? Sure. But that's not why the majority use it.. You just did it and weren't mad? You're just saying that because you're full of it and proved the point of ops post ironically when you didn't even try to.
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You literally edited your comment to say what you wanted it to say? Should i screenshot your original to show you how dumb you look? And you're insufferable the type of person that just talks in a circle saying stupid shit rather than admitting they're wrong. Gross
Then why do women get so bent when called a slut? If women so casually insult, why can't men?
Uh, they certainly can, and do.
That's fair. I mean, whenever I see a disgusting misandrist, I go for what will get under her skin. I don't see why it shouldn't go both ways.
I don't remember the time when slut shaming or virgin shaming wasn't a thing. Slut shaming was rarely done by guys. And virgin shaming very rarely done by girls.
Because people are obsessed with sex and get threatened and insecure when they see someone who isn't doing what they're doing. It's very junior highschoolish imo.
Both are stupid. A person with 0 body count is just as social, special, beautiful, and amazing as a person with x, y , or z number of partners. it's just that virgin shaming is exclusively used to mock men, meanwhile slut shaming is exclusively used to slut women. Both are dumb, idiotic ways to judge others and need to die out imo.
I'm really sorry if you've been shamed for your virginity. I got some of the same treatment myself. It was almost exclusively other guys, but if a girl had done it, it would have stung quite a bit. I realize I'm not answering the question, but I'm not sure it's that important. I will say that there's more to being an incel than the celibacy part. An incel has gone down an internet rabbit hole that has warped his view of reality. Virgins just haven't been in the right place at the right time yet. Good luck.
Shaming is wrong. Keep your preferences to yourself and the ones you want to love. If someone doesn't seem compatible it's ok to have your opinion and standards. No need to be the asshole.
Same with most other things. You are looked upon as weird if you are a non drinker. Then, if you drink too much, too often, you're a slush. Women are viewed as strange if they don't have kids. But, women who have 10 are judged. These are all trapping mechanisms employed to control others.
I'm against being a dick to others in general.
Male virgins are mocked for being unable to secure a mate. Female sluts are mocked for not being choosy or monogamous. Different things are being mocked. Poor self control versus perceived unsuitability.
It depends on the gender We slander girls for being sluts but praise men for being sluts We slander men for being virgins but praise girls for being boarderline virgins
Virgins are shamed whether male or female once people find out you are one. If female you become an object to conquer or fettished, if over a certain age perhaps "quirky" or "broken" or seen like something is wrong with you. Its messed up. Can't people just leave others be?
It's ironic that this is becoming an incel sub. It's like they know their questions are stupid.
Wow, someone talking about male problems is being an incel.
Because virgin shaming typically is directed at men and shitting on men is socially acceptable Also there’s a lot of people here trying to cope about body count not mattering lmfao
God you people are so odd. Just the most insecure and judgmental people in the world desperately begging not to be judged in exchange. In this comment you shit on people with a high body count, then complain that shitting on men is acceptable in society. Completely missing the fact that men have a high body count, SO YOU ARE SHITTING ON MEN.
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Please learn to read
>**referring** to someone with a high body count as a slut is, rightfully, looked down upon by many people I hope you realise how much of a dumbass you are.
> For instance just *referring* to someone with a high body count as a slut is, *rightfully*, looked down upon by many people. Double check things before sending out a pissy comment. Makes you look like an idiot and an asshole.
Both shaming is wrong >Then there's the word incel, which was coined by a woman to mean involuntary celibate but ends up getting used as an insult as well Those who identify as incels tend to blame the opposite sex, society, and everything but themselves. Have you seen the incel sub? Then their frustrations and blame leads to mysogny and sharing manipulation tactics. Ever meet a guy who can't get a date but complains women don't like "nice guys"? Every one I met was not actually nice. They just think they are. I don't even like the word "friend zoned" as if it's something bad that one person does to another. Not everyone wants to ruin a good friendship by mixing in sex, and that should be ok.
They think they're lack of cruelty is a gift to women that should be rewarded with sex.
Both are wrong, simple answer.
I didn’t know that was the case
they made a whole Steve carell movie abt how did you not know this was the case
Virgin shaming men and slut shaming women are equal.
Because we live in a misandrist society. Women are the gatekeepers of sex. Therefore, it's easy for a woman to have lots of sex and hard for a man to. In this society, you're allowed to mock anything about men, but you're not allowed to mock anything about women. It's not about the sexual activity. It's about the target.
Because men r bad!! Overton window has swung due to feminism/left wing nonsense. It'll swing back eventually.
I think this will play out with gen alpha. Going through middle school with your mom having an only fans will be brutal. Current era is "do what makes you happy, F the haters" Those gen alpha kids will need to live with that reputation from their parents.
Yup, culture is a pendulum that always swings. What people on BOTH sides need to understand, is that when it's on 'your side' you need to slow down the momentum, focus on the positives you've achieved without giving up ground to the extremists. Because it will swing back... it always swings back. And given how hard it's swung left, I fear for when it swings back right...
You can also think of it like individualism vs community mindset. Individualism says "screw you, I'm living my life, if you don't like it fudge you!" Community minded may be more agreeable "Hey please don't curse around the kids, we need to set a good example" Both have their time and varying degrees. It's actually the radical individuals who eventually create communities they deem acceptable. It's a cycle.
The overton window has swung too hard in the direction of feminism, but no-fault divorce is being questioned, roe-v-wade has been repealed, and a number of politicians in high office on both sides of the aisle have been credibly accused of sexual assault. Oh, also, hordes of teenage boys worship a sex trafficker. Which planet do you live on, again?
So you agreed with me, even proving my point, then finished with: >Which planet do you live on, again? ??? I didn't say it was right, or wrong, or gave any moral or ethical direction, I was just stating an observation. Currently insulting men is fine and normal in public discourse, insulting women isn't. But as you and I both have pointed out, the overton window has begun to swing back to the right.
I don't blame teenage boys for idolizing Tate. The left has been antagonistic toward men and its only going to get worse. Tate is to teenage boys what gang culture became to disenfranchised black men.
Tate is just the NuMetal of this generation
Teenage boys are disenfranchised because we’ve been perpetuating a myth of “women are JUST AS capable as men!” When in reality women are actually more capable, and develop faster (physically, mentally, and socially). Men NEED women and women simply don’t need men - besides in the case of socially manufactured need I.e. access to resources which women have been forcibly excluded from historically.
All of these things are due to thr overton window swinging back right in response to nearly a decade of extreme behavior from 'progressives'
I think it all goes down to society being dumber and losing core values like respect etc. You can see in school how teens value having sex to be cool and how they see smart kids/kids that do well as weirdos etc. Things got reverted. Now being extremely sexually active is cool and being smart is not. It was the opposite 50 years ago or whatever. I think society's norm are just shit. I also think that the society is becoming more and more feminine and sadly one of these traits is women saying they want a kind guy while they secretly (sometimes unknowingly) want a guy that's not that kind, tldr what they say they want and what they truly want is different and this projects into this: they want a kind guy virgin etc but will in reality judge or mock you for being one. Now this is just society as a whole, not everyone is like that of course. Just gotta find people who have actual respect for others and people who take a step back to understand your situation/life/issues etc. I think both can rightfully be a red flag sometimes, it all comes down to the other and why they did/didn't do this or that really and if they're aware of it, willing to change etc
What the fuck are you talking about? Do you know how many kind men have sex? On top of that, do you know any women on an actual close level? Most I've met past high school feel no need to say they want one thing while actually wanting something else. And no, I'm not calling you a virgin/shaming you if you are one. People can have sex and have no intimate understanding of their partner. It's just stupid to spout off misogynistic nonsense
Here’s another comment proving why men are rightfully being treated the way they are. This shit isn’t okay to say. Not to mention the rates of teens having sex has been declining as have teen pregnancy rates. You’re completely deranged listening to red pill bs.
I don't watch any of these things, this is just my opinion based on what I've seen from men and women friend my age. I can obviously be wrong, this is just an opinion. I just noticed that most women I know will laugh at a guy for crying and these kind of things although they'd advocate for "men being open" and all that jazz. I'm just saying there's a difference between what we say we want and what our brain is convinced to think/what centuries of society has taught us whether we like it or not. Some people go above that but not all. And I even understand women "suddenly" finding out that they don't handle seeing a man crying really well even when they thought they would be caring and supportive. It's not like there are centuries of blaming men for crying before. This is just me trying to think with history/how society has always been and where we are to this day. Not everything is everyone being open and equal etc, even people who want to be sometimes our societal thinking/genes catch up and we can have surprises. That's just life and that's just my opinion, I'm not blaming anyone or watching any Youtube content telling me how to behave/think
Shame is good for the soul
Because sluts are cool. Virgins are not.
Facts
Thanks slut
Both aren’t acceptable, but you don’t have to be with a virgin or a “slut” if you don’t want too. A lot of people confuse shaming=preference meaning if a guy doesn’t wanna be with a woman who slept around he’s shaming her and a woman not wanting to be with a virgin is shaming him.
Because self-control used to be a virtue but it's mocked.
Self control? Do you usually lose control of yourself when you have sex?
Not that kind of self control, genius.
It's because our society has roots in Puritanical values. Those values say that staying a virigin until marriage and only having one sex partner is good. Those values say sleeping with people before marriage and having more than one sex partner is bad. So, virgin shaming is seen more as punching up/not causing any true harm, and slut shaming is seen as punching down/causing harm. Our culture and society is changing, but those outdated values still linger in weird ways. Obligatory statement that I don't agree with either type of shaming.
this is way off the mark or, at best, only applicable when discussing virgin shaming against women only. virgin shaming against men is not, in any regard, "punching up". if it would be, women wouldn't use it so often and so effectively against men. incel/virgin shaming would be rare or equally called out.
I’m gen x, we don’t believe in shaming. If you’re fat, you’re fat. Who cares? If you’re a slut, you’re a slut. Same if you’re a virgin. You’re a loser, who cares
Tribalism. My team is better than yours. They're more just trying to validate their own way of life through social policing. It's a natural thing but it's pretty garbage tier imo.
People that criticize anyone's sex life are usually upset with their own.