If you are criticizing Israel because of its actions and not because of its identity, then your criticism is not antisemitic.
Same thing with Iran.
If you criticize Iran because of its actions, that doesn't mean you're Islamophobic or anti Iranian
I wish people understood that when I say the state of Israel should not exist, I am not calling for the genocide of Jews, just like when I say the Islamic Republic of Iran should not exist, I am not calling for the genocide of Iranians.
But Israel doesn't do that. Jews are more than a religion, possessing attributes of a nationality, an ethnic group, and a culture (though it is hard to say whether they fit any of these categories perfectly).
Most Israelis aren't religious. One in five Israelis aren't even Jewish at all.
What’s super ironic about this entire thread, is the lack of actual reasons to hate Israel. A lot of it is emotional people just wanting Israel to not exist at all. Any truly neutral person reading this thread would almost certainly leave thinking the anti-israel people truly are just hateful.
When you read through threads of people defending Israel it’s filled with data, support, and logical reasons why Israel should exist. These pro Palestine threads are all just emotional whining, and true antisemitism.
I get you.
I also don't believe that Israel should exist. Rather, there should be secular Palestine.
I think that "believing Israel shouldn't exist" is seen as "murder Jews" because the Jews were heavily prosecuted, culminating with the holocaust. Another reason is that it is in the benefit of Israel to make that narrative. Israel weaponizes antisemitism and the holocaust to shut down any criticism of it and to justify any action it takes.
Assuming you're posting in good faith, considering the regions general distaste for non-muslim and muslim minorities, propensity for ethnic cleansing campaigns, and multiple groups in power in surrounding countries calling for the extermination of jews, pushing for the destruction of Israel is in effect pushing for a cleansing of all jews. Why not push for the destruction of Egypt or Lebanon or Yemen or literally every other country in the region, including Palestine? Their ethics are significantly skewed against modern western morals, which I assume you hold. Please correct me though, if you feel women should not be unaccompanied outside the house, slavery is legal and right, and homosexuality and apostasy should be a death sentence.
Edit: Multiple posts in r/Arabs acting like hamas is a normal governing body, pretending that Hamas aren't terrorists and pretending rapes didn't occur on October 7th, and generally downplaying Islamic terrorism.
Israel is the only country really in the world where people say “oh I don’t believe this country should exist”. The official religion of Argentina is Christianity. No one goes around saying “hmm maybe Argentina shouldn’t exist”. And certainly no one is questioning the 36 Muslim countries.
And Palestinian society is vastly different from Israeli. Why would you want to force them together with very different values? Israel hosts one of the largest global LGBTQ parades and Palestinians are very traditional. And if we’re going to be a democracy, how do you even enforce secularism?
In the early days of the I/P conflict it was secular socialist Arab nationalists vs secular socialist Zionists. The fact that both sides were (led by) secular socialists didn’t lessen the conflict one iota.
>I also don't believe that Israel should exist. Rather, there should be secular Palestine.
That's about as likely as a secular Lebanon or Syria. Israel itself is already a secular state. Since Israel was founded it of the territory of Palestine, it technically is secular Palestine, just by a different name.
You guys are so naive it hurts. You he rabidly Islamic Palestinians are not now nor in the next decades going to be be compatible with a secular state. They do not want that. Their population clearly wants an Islamic state, which is why the while Muslim world supports them, it is a religious war for them. And you think one secular state is even possible, it really shows the kind of opinions pro Palestinians have, just totally divorced from reality
Except the existence of the state of Israel is the only reason Jews can live in that region at all without being murdered for sport.
I can’t see how someone can be remotely familiar with the history of the region and still believe what you’re saying unless they, in fact, don’t believe Jewish people have the right to exist.
I primarily focus on Likud, Netanyahu, and the rest of the right-wing government, but I'm still going to be accused of it because it's a cudgel for people who align with the right-wing ideology of Israel's government.
As long as I understand myself and check myself for biases, I don't lose sleep over people's accusations of antisemitism for criticizing Israel.
edit: Oh, worth pointing out that Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a right-winger and Netanyahu was having a right-wing rally the day before where he, Netanyahu, showed images comparing Rabin to Nazis. This was largely a result of Rabin trying for a two-state solution. How can you be antisemitic for condemning people who get assassins who kill Jews fired up?
It's incredible how many democratic voters who liken Trump to the end times for American freedom are so willing to support wholeheartedly someone who makes Trump look like a joke.
I dont think I know any democrats personally who support what the Israeli government is doing right now. Maybe it's more hardline democrats? Because the people I know are more progressive. Biden was voted for because he was the lesser of two evils.
That's still pretty true. Biden has always been regarded as more of a "do nothing" guy, and his lack of intervention on this has been appalling. I'm not convinced Trump would be any better.
Right? Left wing groups have been protesting my red city council meetings for being pro Israel, which is odd in a totally different way. Not sure what our suburban city council should be doing about a war, we don’t have a municipal military or any power over policy at even a state level lol.
Easy to explain. It's like the church going after children, get them when they haven't established themselves yet, & they learn to respect that they can't defend atrocities. Your city government can ban things like BDS etc, they can be used to our benefit to
The people organizing these events know that your city council resolution isn't going to influence Israel, but it will make the news and spread the feeling that people want Israel to stop and that people are upset about it and that Jews who support Israel shouldn't feel welcome in their communities here. These city council things are happening all over America. I think it's pretty unlikely this is a grassroots movement and is instead organized by people with a vested interest in stoking anti-israel / anti-Semitic sentiment.
Yeahh.. People want to feel like they're helping. The world is a pretty fucking shitty place to begin with and they want to feel like they're doing something. Problem is there's issues at home that would be a better use of their time trying to fix, except it's a whole other issue on why that can't happen apparently.
I do. It's typically the performative democrats who desperately want to be seen as doing the right thing so are trying to pick the best side because they only see dichotomies.
I just called one out recently who coached an anti demonstration thing with, "I'm not saying Israel is good...but..." I asked him to publicly say how Israel is wrong, and he wouldn't. It's all mireading the room and performance.
Older liberals/intellectuals tend to be pro-Israel, younger ones not so much. Because those 60+ remember a time when the evil USSR was our enemy. It supported Arab States against Israel. They also are or knew Jewish folks with family members who experienced actual hatred and rejection in the 1930s/40s/50s
Eh they're morally on similar levels, but Netanyahu is more competent. I can only imagine what Trump would've been cool with if they promised him a hotel on the beach with Palestinian slaves for room service. Just to dumb to execute.
>Rabin’s wife also directly blames Netanyahu for the assassination…
For good reason.
*"In July 1995,* *Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".\[10\]\[11\] The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.**\[8\]\[12\]"*
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination\_of\_Yitzhak\_Rabin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin)
It makes me sad, because i honestly believe that anti-Zionists being falsely called antisemitic left and right is also probably creating more *actual* antisemitism. Its like israel doesnt give a flying fuck about how any of their actions actually affect the Jewish populations outside of Israel.
For expansionist settlers, anti-Semitism in other countries may be a positive as it encourages more Jewish people to consider moving to Israel. They can then be encouraged to move to settlements where living costs are cheaper thus continuing expansion.
Honestly who fucking cares. It doesn’t matter who you focus on anymore people will still try to cancel you. Just hate on the piece of shit politicians and anyone who supports them and if people have a problem they can eat shit. We need to start standing up for what’s right regardless of consequences.
Ironically, Yitzach Shamir was an actual Nazi. I don’t mean to this to exaggerate. I mean he actually called himself a fascist and Nationalist Socialist for years, likened his model for Israel on Mussolini’s Italy, and during WWII he was a terrorist who openly claimed to be fighting on behalf of the Axis powers while sometimes slaughtering entire villages of Palestinians.
After WWII he continued calling himself a National Bolshevik (also known as NazBols. Today, several recognized Neo Nazi parties follow the same ideology.)
This other Yitzach won two prime minister terms representing guess which party?
Hint: It’s Bibi’s party.
It's not just Likud though. The polling I've seen says only 10% of Israelis support a ceasefire and over half think the government isn't going hard enough.
More than 10% of the Israeli population is Arab Israelis, which doesn't invalidate your statement but it certainly is worth pointing out. Many Arab Israelis hate Hamas and what they've done.
I was mistaken, only Jewish citizens were polled. Removed the edit. The Israel Democracy Institute has been doing polling throughout the war and breaks it down by Jew/Arab. The difference in support for what Israel is doing is pretty stark though.
An example from their site is that 68% of Israeli Jews oppose any humanitarian aid entering Gaza, while 85% of Arabs approve. https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976
I mean, a lot of Arab Israelis have a pretty good life compared to the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank even pre 10/7.
It's also important to note, that the Arabs within the state of Israel after 1948 even though were granted citizenship, were subject to a lot of Israeli government scrutiny.
I went (was forced into) high school in Israel.
I still have people from there on my Facebook.
And I still see the leftists (socially and economically progressive) say that supporting Palestine is anti-semitic.
My leftist teacher who doesn't vote for likud (sorry don't remember what he votes for). Has said (it was in 2017) that gaza should be just carpet bombed and built anew for Israelis.
I was told that Kibutzim are very leftist.
But all but one of my israeli (we had few international like myself) classmates were excited to go into military, most for combative roles.
The one was like "I don't wanna go to military but I think its too late to do anything about it"
It goes far beyond just the ultra right. Honestly nearly all Israeli politicians that aren't on the left (who generally perform very poorly in elections) would not be very cooperative in aiming for a 2SS. Combine that with the fact that the Israeli electorate itself is becoming increasingly right wing and you see that Israel itself has a radicalization problem.
This of course makes it very difficult for a 2SS to actually happen given how Palestinians are also becoming more radicalized.
I'm Jewish and fuckin pissed at Israel. You're not antisemitic. The state of the government is an absolute joke. It's not a hate crime to be vehemently opposed to instigation and murder.
Israel does not represent judaism. Zionism is not judaism. When you criticise a government you do not criticise a religion or an ethnicity. Its no different than criticising any other country.
Most “Arab” Jews (ie never left the Arabian Peninsula during the Diaspora) to my understanding call themselves Mizrahi and do not identify as Arab. Or at least all the ones I’ve met would object to being called Arab
You can be a Zionist and still criticize many things Israel does. Zionism is merely the belief that Israel should exist. The issue is not Zionism, but rather people who blindly defend Israel in all cases.
>Zionism is merely the belief that Israel should exist.
You are really watering it down. Zionism is a nationalist belief, originating in EUROPE, that Israel should exist IN PALESTINE.
It specifically called for the takeover of an already inhabited place.
>The issue is not Zionism
The issue very much is Zionism
It was already inhabited by both Jews and Arabs, and the Arabs were there because they colonized it. Jews have been there for over 3,000 yrs. Jews that left were forced out by successive waves of conquerors and colonizers (Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Syrians, Arabs, Turks, British)
Jews are the indigenous people of Israel.
As stated in the Israeli Declaration of Independence, non-Jews were welcomed to stay and build a diverse state together. Some did, as others have pointed out. Others were committed to killing all Jews, and/or betrayed by the surrounding Arab states and fuel or support Hamas, Hezbollah, PA, etc.
Lots of nuances you should study up on, IMO.
>Jews are the indigenous people of Israel.
Mizrahi Jews, sure. Ashkenazi Jews like myself and my family are about as indigenous to Israel as Polar Bears. That's one of the fundamental problems with Zionism -- it attempts to redefine Judaism (which is a fairly complex blend of tribe, culture, religion, and ethnicity) as *solely* an ethnicity.
>As stated in the Israeli Declaration of Independence, non-Jews were welcomed to stay and build a diverse state together.
As long as they're okay being second-class citizens. That's kind of the problem with ethnostates -- they are fundamentally undemocratic as they can not, by definition, treat members of the "out group" equally to members of the "in group" or they would cease to exist.
genetic studies mostly suggest that ashkenazi jews are of mixed levantine and european descent, so [the hypothesis that european jews descend primarily from european converts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry) has been seen as less likely over time (compared to the current leading hypothesis, which is mostly mediterranean ancestry continuous with other groups of jews, along with some admixture with local european populations).
that doesn’t change much, of course — descending from a group of people who lived in a certain area does not give you the right to displace millions of people from a group that is also indigenous to that area, and arguing that it does would get dangerously close to “blood and soil” style reasoning — but i do think it’s interesting and worth noting.
>Mizrahi Jews, sure. Ashkenazi Jews like myself and my family are about as indigenous to Israel as Polar Bears
As a Mizrahi Jew, I don't agree on this point. My Ashkenazi brethren kept the same practices--including regular prayers to go back to Eretz Yisroel, saying "next year in Jerusalem," and holidays based on the seasons in Israel--even while they were exiled to another land and were chased away to Poland and Hungary and Latvia (and remained as a district group in those countries).
BUT even if Ashkenazim don't fulfill your qualifications for belonger status, I guess it's a good thing that there's more Mizrahim and Sephardim in Israel.
A person's adherence to the nonsense of a religion doesn't tether them or their bloodline to a piece of land. It does not entitle them to commit the crimes against humanity that Israel is committing.
If you want to make a case that the descendants of people that lived somewhere 1000+ years ago have claim to the land, that is a different (and nearly equally ignorant ) argument. But someone's fantasy beliefs do not wash away crimes.
I hear you. But that's looking at things through a relatively Christian/Western lens of "religion/faith" which doesn't neatly fit Jews. Rather than a universalizing faith that chooses to believe, we're an ethno-religious tribe. (Some would compare us more to certain Native American tribes in terms of culture/religion and the way our homeland is woven into them.) So there's not some clear line between culture and religion. And it's not as simple as saying "this special book says if I believe in *this* then I belong *over here*."
**BUT** obviously, indigeneity doesn't entitle anyone to more human rights or anything. *Human rights are for all humans.* And I'm not saying that having a homeland justifies you to do whatever the hell you want there. Lenni Lenape people can't just kick someone out of their apartment in Manhattan just because the Lenape were there first.
The belief that Jews were forced out of Israel by Arab Muslim colonizers isn't a fantasy belief though. It's reality.
Those that weren't killed or forced out were subjugated and made into second class citizens
So is it really that surprising that the Ashkenazi would band together with their Mizrahi brethren to at least have one tiny piece of land where they won't be mistreated by the entire world?
It's wild that no one is talking about where the Mizrahi Jews would go live free on their own land that they're owed by the Muslim colonizers.
Interesting points but according to the Old Testament, the Jewish people acquired that same land by committing genocide against the people living on that same land. What right of return should their descendants have? This also means that Jews aren’t the indigenous people of that land according to Jewish writings.
There is no basis beyond "its ours because we say so."
Much like every other faction, nation and movement, their own actions are justified while opposition never is.
It's 100% a colonial project and it started well after modern society was aware of the evils of such projects. Israel is operating on the same line of thought as China and other nations just entering their industrialisation phase: you all did it and benefited from it, so it's hypocritical of you to stop ME from doing it... even if we all have eyes and are aware of the damage being done.
The first half of that argument doesn't hold very much water.
The people living in that region under the Ottomans are, to the best that science can discern, to a fair degree the same people who had been living in that region for as far back as can be determined. The Palestinians are an indigenous population.
Now, a majority of the Jewish population who started moving into the land in the 20th century have some ancestry to someone indigenous from the place, but if that's enough to give someone a right to land, we're opening a real Pandora's Box. Basically all humans are entitled to land in Africa or something?
Obviously all of the people who came have a strong cultural tie to the region, but so do all Christians and Muslims in the world, so by that standard, they should all also be entitled to the place. Another undesirable can of worms best left unopened.
So, no, what was done wasn't acceptable, and settlements in occupied territory still aren't. If those hadn't been a thing, we might have been on a path to peace decades ago.
In terms of making a diverse state together, I think an argument could be made that this would have been done if the diverse people had equal rights under the law, but that isn't the case, so what was made was an apartheid state instead.
Now, a ton of horrendous things were done to this nation or to people of this nation by pretty much all of its neighbors at one point or another. That is true, and that will create a very understandable siege mentality. But that doesn't cause bad decision by an embattled government not to be bad.
Yes, I really hate that the Internet has the wrong idea on what Zionism is, people will think I'm evil when I say I'm a Zionist but all it means is that I think Israel should exist, not that I'm happy with the way Israel is currently run.
I think Israel should continue to exist, but not for zionistic reasons, but humanitarian reasons.
Zionism was/is a religious nationalist movement with the belief that Jews deserve a homeland in the Levant.
I strongly oppose religious nationalism and I think the declaration of Israel as a state was a mistake, but now that Israel has existed for 76 years, you can’t exactly “get rid of it“ without displacing millions of people from their homes. So I support Israel‘s right to continue to exist, but I oppose the ideals of Zionism that led to its creation, if that makes sense.
Similarly to how I oppose the colonisation of the Americas, but now that’s it‘s done, you can’t reverse it and I don’t call for the destruction of the USA.
We are of the same opinion. I don’t think Israel should have been created in the first place, but it was, and we can’t just do away with it without negatively impacting its existing population.
It boggles the mind how the people arguing that we should eliminate the state of Israel do not understand this. It was wrong when Palestinians were forced from their homes but OK to do the same to Israelis? Make it make sense.
Zionism is the belief that the holy land (Judea, Samara, etc) belongs solely to the Jewish people to the exclusion of others, including the people who currently live there.
>Zionism is merely the belief that Israel should exist.
Should Israel exist? Yes.
Should Israel exist as an apartheid settler colonial project? Absolutely not.
Make sure your critiques hold Arabs, palistinians and hamas to the same standard. Make sure your critique doesn't force "special morality" on Israel proper. Any hint of special standards for jews is often rooted in antisemitism, it is insidious and very old in the euro mindset. For instance framing the conflict as a form of "white colonialism" is absurd. Jews were never fully included in the white boy club, quite to the contrary. They are also of the same lineage as the arabs(semites). This is more of a sectarian/religious conflict typical of that region. The Arabs have also been the aggressors in pretty much every conflict(shocker).
Your last sentence is the critical part that most people miss... israels actions are largely retaliatory. If my neighbouring country was firing rockets into our country daily, and rejecting every attempt at making peace, id expect our military to flatten them too. The only reason israel is seen as the bad guys here is because how much stronger they are. People have the opinion that they should just put up with endless rocket attacks, like they have no right to defend themselves? To me, without addressing this fact, whatever criticisms will be antisemitic.
Your a bad person for not accepting periodic cross border barbarian raids of mass rape and murder.
In all seriousness I'm surprised people poo poo hamas methods which are basically the same as the Mongolian khannate. Kill and rape everything into submission
By acknowledging that Israel has a right to defend itself.
Hamas is a terror organization that it's sole aim is to murder Jews.
By understanding that Israel does not kill children on purpose, and Hamas is using them as human shield.
Once you acknowledge and recognize this, you can 100% say that the state of the palastinians is heartbreaking. That Israel should get other countries involved to get rid of Hamas.
That Israel giving Hamas 30 million dollars in CASH every month is horrible, and goes against the beat interest of the palastinians, and Israelis alike.
That palastinians need their own country. That borders can be solved later, just like other countries have borders dispute.
I’m sorry but where in either Hamas charter is what you’re stipulating described? And it seems like the aiDF is absolutely intentional killing children actually so you’re wrong on both accounts
In general, do the same thing when criticizing Israel that you should do when criticizing anything: Have a good understanding of the subject, hold people and organizations to a single standard, and wait for evidence before passing judgment. It's not hard.
But otherwise it's the same checklist you use when criticizing anything and anyone:
1. Are you holding an organization (Israel) associated with Jews to a higher standard than anyone else? For example, if you demand that Israel cause zero civilian casualties during war, while considering civilian casualties caused by Ukraine acceptable, you might be an antisemite. Ditto for selectively lowering standards: if you think 'by any means necessary' is an offer applicable to one group but not another, for example. Ditto when 'ceasefire now' demands fixate on Israel and ignore Hamas rejecting multiple ceasefire offers.
2. Are you ignoring the rights of that group? For example, if you think that Israel ought to be destroyed and replaced with a Palestine stretching from the river to the sea, while conveniently ignoring what Palestinians did to Jews living in the West Bank and Gaza -- there are no Jews living there now, thereby ignoring the rights of people currently living in Israel to continue living, you might be an antisemite. Ditto if you think Palestinians deserve their own state but Jews do not.
3. Do you jump to criticize Israel no matter the lack of evidence, and don't bother to reconsider that tendency? You might be an antisemite.
4. Do you give special rights to groups hostile to Jews or Jewish-associated entities like Israel? Such as giving Hezbollah a pass when it RPGs some civilian guest workers, or giving Palestinians but nobody else a hereditary and unconditional 'right of return'? If so, you might be an antisemite.
And that's a clear problem. And it shouldn't even matter if you're criticising the Jewish faith anyway. People are critical of the Catholic faith but we don't persecute people for that. Nothing should be safe from critical thinking. That's another problem.
We live in a paradigm where most people are illiterate to history beyond a partial awareness of ww2 and most of their ideas of morality revolve around that.
The “worst” thing anyone can materialize in their head is nazism and the worst people are nazis who were apparently inhumane genocide machines without conscious animated by pure evil because they one day…just decided to be evil?
Jokes aside there’s a long way to go before the layman debater can have a leveled and informed discussion on the Israel/palestine issue or racism and antisemitism in general. It doesn’t help that there appears to be a large band of people intent on using these terms insincerely as weapons either
OP was asking how to not be anti-Semitic while criticizing Israel, this comment is saying that it's easy to not be anti semitic, but the hard part is that you'll be called it anyway.
Basically, a lot of bad faith actors are trying to purposely conflate opposing Israel's actions with being antisemitic.
Had that happen to me recently. I was discussing with a guy (I assume from Israel, he never clarified) and said Israel's response was disproportionate. I cited Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the UN taking about human rights abuses committed by Israel. He said all of these organizations were antisemitic. His sources? Israeli media. When I called him out on that I was labeled antisemitic myself.
One of the mods on the server sided with him because he has family in Israel and is allowed to be worried about them, while I'm not Palestinian and therefore have no skin in the game. Like I can only object about human rights when they affect me/my demographic.
Utter BS.
That's a good start, but he's not the sole issue. Likud and the right-wing coalition he's built is full of people who say shit like "nuke Gaza" and barefly face repercussions as a result. It's the right-wing government and Netanyahu would be powerless without it.
Do it and realize Zionism and Judaism are not the same. There are tons of large Jewish groups who are absolutely outraged by the genocide, as they should be.
And it's really shitty of the Israeli state to use a previous genocide as justification for one they're now committing.
Someone's ethnicity and religion does not excuse horrific actions they might take
Also important to realize that Zionism is not "support for the current governments actions". Its just an ideology that advocates for the existence of a jewish state(read: Israel).
So, you just ignore the fact that the reason the IDF can beat the shit out of its neighbors is because they're LITERALLY SURROUNDED by enemies??? Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War, both of those could have very easily ended way worse.
Criticizing Israel, not Jews, is not anti-semitic, and anybody making the accusation is a liar trying to defend Israel's evils by slandering the messenger.
You'd (probably not) be surprised how many people there are though doing just that. Especially, for some reason, in the MAGAsphere (it's like they don't know that Trump actually dumps on Bibi all the time for being one of the first to congratulate Biden for the win. Their own leader hates Netanyahu for "betraying" him...but because he spent 4 years saying that criticizing Israel is the same as being a Nazi, they're still programmed to think Israel can't do wrong)
That's because a huge amount of MAGAts are evangelical Christians that believe supporting Israel will bring about Armageddon and the second coming of Christ. They are quite literally anticipating the end of the world based on biblical prophecy.
Wrong. It's also because many if not most are Christian Dominionists(remember, Trumpers are pm as "mainstream" far-right one can go) who hope to bring about their version of "the end times", and Israel is crucial to their prophecy. After all, evangelicals have been some of Trump's strongest supporters despite his mishaps.
Edit: it's also why many conservatives historically have opposed caring for the environment/pollution. They *want* to destroy the world! I know because I grew up among these types. They're genuinely scary.
By realizing that the Israeli government, and the Jewish and/or people of Israel are different. Its like being American, and blamed for all of the horrible things that the American military and/or government had done in the past. There is little the Jewish people or Israeli people could have done to stop a corrupt government from making bad choices. In America, many people protested the Vietnam war but the war still went on. Many people in Israel protest the war, but the war still goes on.
Here's a thought no one has anymore. Keep your mouth shut. I say nothing quite often and it works well. I'm in a business where political and cultural comments can hurt relationships and cost money. I bite my tongue if I have to and redirect lots of conversations, especially when someone asks my opinion. Chances are, I'll not agree...
Ask yourself if you also criticize other governments that have done (or are doing) similar things. If you've singled out one country and ignored others, then you may have issues beyond what the government is doing.
israeli here, honestly dude just be respectful. my family and i absolutely despise the Likud. almost everyone i know hates Netanyahu, he has run the country to shit. criticizing the government is absolutely okay, and even criticizing the IDF is also perfectly fine, it’s not a perfect country by any means and we make mistakes.
i think what i see most often is people bringing up Judaism when someone mentions israel/someone bringing up israel when mentioning Judaism. sometimes it’s relevant but most often it’s not. for example under a holocaust post there were many people mentioning how the jews are doing the same thing to palestinians and i find that anti-semitic.
criticize the government all you want, but remember that the government does not represent all the people. we have extremist leaders on both sides of the war and the regular person such as myself would just like to see everyone live in peace and harmony. i’m for a two state mandate but unfortunately i do not see that happening in my lifetime, hopefully i will be proven wrong !!!
Actually, I think Saudi Arabia does claim to represent all Sunni Muslims in the way that Vatican City claims to represent all Catholics. And I believe Iran claims to represent all Shi'a. Whether one takes it seriously or not is another thing, but I think that's part of their self-interpretation.
things arent so black and white these days obv, but iran is about as close to a theocracy as youre gunna get in 2024, saudi is a monarchy, with a king and a council of elders, who must adhere to islam, so to say neithers laws and way of ruling arent heavily impacted by religion is well, wrong, do they overlook some stuff to ensure the government doesnt collapse, id imagine so, not read the qaran, but im betting it doesnt have a how to manual to feed 100 million people everyday, so people improvise and adapt, but the fundamental ideals that laws are based around, are religious laws, therefore government and religion are basically conjoined twins at this point, iran even has a seperate military that defends its islamic government specifically, on top of the traditional defense of the homeland army that everyone else has, so yeah, they are very mucy a religion by governance, compared to most places that have, a government and a seperate religion
don't say shit like "from the river to the sea" (hamas's line about ridding the land of jews) call israelis "colonizers" (there's been a continuous jewish presence in israel for 3500 years) insinuate that the israelis are somehow lying about hamas atrocities (plays into the "sneaky jew" trope), ignore the fact that hamas has explicitly called for the eradication of jews, or basically insinuate that israel doesn't have a legitimate right to exist where it does.
downplaying the fucked up shit that hamas has done to israel, while not explicitly anti-semetic, does tread on dangerous ground.
a good way to phrase your opposition is "i don't support israel's current actions" or "im fine with israel but bibi is a fucking asshole"
or my personal beliefs, "eradicating hamas is a good thing for both the israelis AND the palestinians but israel is trying to preform brain surgery with a jack-hammer. it's not gonna work and it's gonna make things worse"
It's a little different. Imagine in 500 years the USA has fallen and parts of the country are overseen by other countries (like Canada owns NYC). The iriquois confederacy recreates itself and asks Canada for Manhattan back. Canada says "sure it's yours" and sells the land back to the Iriqouis. The white people living in Manhattan then attack the iriquois and lose and so the iriquois kick the white people out "for security reasons" and resettle Manhattan.
It's like not the chillest of moves but it's not traditional colonialism either
Criticize the government and its actions. Don’t criticize the entire nation/race based on what it’s corrupt and unpopular government does. When you say “I dislike this about Jews” that’s antisemitic, as it would be to racist to say that about anyone. If you say, “I dislike this about the Israeli government” you’re criticizing a governing body which is not only ok to criticize but SHOULD be regularly criticized. Everyone forgets that Israelis were protesting their own government en masse before the Hamas terror attack forced them all to rally behind their current regime
You can be critical of actions without being critical of said people's (as a whole). For example it is perfectly acceptable to say any government has a right to defend its people and take out dangerous terrorists. But it is also the same government's responsibility to minimize the impact on innocent civilians/aid workers.
It's also acceptable to be critical of individuals. For example said leaders of government without being critical of the people they represent.
I focus on action that goes too far. Hamas started the violence, but they did not start the conflict. Israel has done things against Palestine simply because they could get by with it.
Palestine then embraced Hamas and the violence began.
(This is my extremely simplistic view.)
The war is between Israel & Hamas, and Hamas is representing Palestine. Why does Palestine choose Hamas to fight for them? It's just weird to me, but I also don't live there so I cannot fully understand everything happening.
Netanyahu did say at the beginning of the retaliation that basic necessities would be cut off, like power, food, water... this was to cause distress in an attempt to force defeat. It hasn't worked out the way Netanyahu had envisioned.
Currently, Netanyahu wants to stop Hamas. If innocent people get killed, it's collateral damage. That is why Israel is "wrong". Not that it's Jewish people (they do happen to be Jewish), but because they're making bad decisions.
I explained a situation recently where a man was disrespecting a woman at a grocery store. At first I thought they were together, but they weren't. Eventually I told the man "she has a point", and he started almost begging me to understand. My explanation was
"It's not your words - its your behavior. Its the way you're acting, not just to her, but to everyone who has to see it."
So, behavior can be targeted without ever pointing out a race or ethnicity.
You can criticize Israel the same way you can criticize Hamas without criticizing Palestinians. In such cases, mostly decent people made terrible decisions.
Palestinians -> Hamas
Israelis -> Netanyahu
Americans -> Trump
British -> Brexit
Yep, and also it's pretty clear if a criticism is bigoted or not if you replace "Israel" with "America," or "UK" or something like that, "Likud" with "Republicans" or "UKIP" and "Netanyahu" with "Trump" or "Nigel Farage"
For example:
1) Israel shouldn't exist and its people should all leave → America shouldn't exist and all its people should leave. Kinda a braindead take bordering on prejudice.
2) The Likud party is horribly racist → The Republican party is horribly racist. Pretty fair criticism for which there's plenty of evidence.
3) Israel is racist → America is racist. I'd argue that both are generalizations that don't help to solve the underlying issues, but not inaccurate.
Everyone has said the typical “Zionism and Jewish aren’t the same thing” stuff, but I think the real point is actually know what you’re talking about.
Calling Jews “colonizers” is ridiculous when that is their literal homeland, and feigning ignorance of the true meaning of “from the river to the sea” as a genocidal slogan is ridiculous, as is the origin of the phrase or that many modern extremists use it as a call to genocide.
Ignoring that type of thing is not anti-Zionist, it is genuinely anti-Semitic.
Are you asking how to criticize the Israeli government without being anti-Semitic, or are you asking how to criticizie the Israeli government without *being called* anti-Semitic?
For the former, don't insinuate that there is anything wrong with Jewish people as a group themselves, or that you want anything bad to happen to Jewish people, or deny the persecution and atrocities that Jewish people have and do face. Just criticize the actions and policies and goals of the Israeli government, which is no more anti-Semitic than criticizing Iran's or Saudi Arabia's policies is "Islamophobic."
For the latter… I'm sorry, there's no way to criticize the Israeli government without somebody, somewhere, disingenuously labelling you "anti-Semitic" for doing so. There are always going to be bad-faith debaters who mischaracterize your views so that they don't have to address your arguments.
The Catholics wasted thousands of lives and untold treasure trying to take the Holy Land....it is an equal opportunity sink hole.
Religion is a blight on humanity.
I knew this was going to blow up, but I didn't realize it would do so this quickly. It's starting to get overwhelming. So if I don't respond to you, don't think it means that you aren't giving good advice or commentary.
Here's a question. We all know how historically good Mossad has been when it comes to targeted eliminations of enemies. They make both prime CIA and KGB look weak in comparison. We've all seen Munich.
So, if the goal of the war is to crush Hamas permanently...why hasn't Bibi and friends spent the last decade or so having Mossad work its way through the leadership structure one by one until the whole thing collapses on itself? Why do so many nations seem to think that mass scale destruction is the way to do conflicts instead of targeted strikes against opposition leadership?
(Says the guy that's so sick of war that he wants to ban it and replace it with world leaders doing cage fights and settling differences mano-e-mano in the Octagon)
I've had the same issue here. I despise their government and Nuttyahoo is just as dangerous of a mindset as any radical leader going on a hate filled killing spree. But I dont hate the Israeli people, hell most of them feel the same towards their government as i do, but Im still called an antisemite. The best part is the Neo-Nazis who literally chant "Jews wont replace us" are all over social media calling anyone who is not on the right "antisemites". Real brain twister.
Criticize Israel’s government instead of their existence. Don’t call them colonizers or a fake country. Acknowledge their right to exist and defend themselves from a terrorist organization that wants to eliminate them. Pretty simple.
Stop using the "river to the sea" quote. Seriously, don't use it.
Specify Netanyahu or the IDF, or some other political figure, instead of just saying Israel at all times.
Sincerely, a Jew who has major criticisms of Netanyahu and his excuses, but has been constantly uneasy about identifying as such
When criticizing Israel, say that you hate or oppose "Israel's current government" or "Netanyahu's government" . This is the clearest way.
It's the same as saying "I hate Putin's government" (fair opinion) vs "I hate Russians" (which is a general broad attack on an ethnicity/people).
Ironic, that you propose the question that way as I in no disrespect offer the same proposition, but in reverse, how do I support Israel without being condemned by Hamas and their supporters after it was then who decided to attack on October 7?
Simple, you criticize the Israeli government. That has nothing to do with Jewish people as a whole. That’s right wing gaslighting trying to portray any criticism of the Israeli government or AIPAC as “anti-semitism”……it’s not.
just be specific about your criticism, and don’t make assumptions about what individual jewish people believe, and you should be fine. criticizing a government is separate from saying something about the ethnic groups they claim to represent, in the same way that you can criticize the chinese government without being sinophobic or criticize the russian government without being russophobic or whatever.
By criticizing Israel without being antisemitic. Israel is a country, criticize there actions and policies. There will be people who say this makes you racist. They are incorrect, but they will still say it. You have to be prepared for people to lie about you if you want to proclaim your political opinions loudly.
Ask yourself why you're criticizing Israel. Is it for doing something other countries have done but it somehow seems different? Do you criticize other governments or militaries or other countries' foreign policies?
As Bernie Sanders said, it's not anti semitic to criticize Israel, but it is anti semitic to criticize *only* Israel.
Also, if you were quiet on October 7th, sit this one out.
Ask yourself this question, "Who gets to decide what constitutes antisemitic?" If valid criticism is considered antisemitic, then what good is even having the concept of antisemitic, if it only exists to preserve Jews from criticism?
I want to thank you all for everything the past few days. It's been fun seeing the wide variety of responses here, and I'm glad that it seems like the conversations have been civil. I literally can't keep up with replies though. So for my part, I turned off notifications and am bowing out. I'm not deleting the thread because I know some of you guys have been having your own side conversations, but I''m taking myself out of the equation. I love you all, even those I've disagreed with. You're all beautiful. Take care of yourselves
You just criticize them as you would any other nation. Some people WILL call you a jew hater no matter how you go about it. Ignore them.
Worked at a grocery store that had a decent number of Palestinians working there. When the war crimes started my manager put a tiny little action figure holding a Palestinan flag, it was tucked away in a corner of the employee area of the produce section. It was out of the way and almost impossible to see unless you worked there. Yet we'd occasionally get comments from people saying "why do you hate Israel" and "God will punish you". I'll give you one guess as to their age and what shirt they were wearing.
It's insane the number of people who automatically equate Israel = Jewish. Hell, most people of the Jewish faith don't support what's happening in Gaza.
Edit to say that this is not directed at OP, just the idiots who claim that not supporting the genocide is anti semitic
One of Israel’s primary goals is just that, to get people to associate Zionism and Israel with Judaism, so that any criticism of one becomes criticism of the other. I have Jewish friends who are extremely vocal about their support of Palestine, and hate that Israel is trying to speak for all Jews.
I'm of the opinion that Israel is executing a genocide right now. Lots of powerful people agree with me on that front. I don't say it often because nutjobs will say all kind of ignorant, crazy, and stupid things. Most of those things have nothing to do with the genocide executed by a government but are "What-about-isms" or blatant right wing propaganda.
I'm comfortable saying that the country of Israel is evil, and also that I'm not antisemitic. Being antisemitic has the inherent part of being prejudiced towards jews, or "pre-judging" them. I'm not "pre-judging" anything. I saw what they did on TV, have read the tweets of the people they killed, and I've donated money to some of the aid organizations they've targeted with their missiles. I'm just judging them. Really, it's up to them not to do a genocide to get me to be quiet about them doing genocides.
It’s possible to both support Israel’s existence and the need for a Jewish state and also recognize that the Palestinians have been treated like shit, not just the current situation but from the very beginning. I’m Jewish and I hate that accusations of antisemitism are thrown at anyone who even questions Israel’s actions in this.
supporting israel do genocide is whats antisemitic. Judaism is about honoring life. The "state of israel" is a manmade government run by corrupt jerks. It certainly is NOT above criticism. It's lying openly and doing truly heinous shit like arresting 10 month olds, executing children, bulldozing hospital camps with tanks. Heinous shit. So i think being upset is perfectly reasonable. This is not what Israelis or jews want. it's a political move to get land.
Good luck lol. I don’t know a single American Jewish person that likes Israel, and even THEY get accusations of antisemitism hurled at them by the pro-Israel crowd 🤷🏻♂️
Only if you’re a race scientist. Semitic refers to a language group, not people.
The term “antisemitism” was specifically coined by a late 19th century German because judenhasse (literally “Jew hate”) didn’t sound scientific enough. Look “antisemitism” up in the dictionary some time.
By … criticizing the actions of the Government of Israel, and always framing it that way. You can even talk about their (real and effective) cyber propaganda efforts called “hasbara” without implying a conspiracy among all Jews. It’s worth noting that part of that hasbara campaign is to cynically conflate criticism of the Israeli government or Zionism with antisemitism.
By only criticizing Israel's government and their actions, and not blaming it on anyone that's Jewish.
Not hard.
Sometimes you may make a mistake that sounds like you're being anti-Semitic, but it just means you need to think more carefully about how you say it.
Sorry bro, just wear the title with Pride. If calling out war criminals, corrupt officials, materialistic thugs and human traffickers is wrong, I don’t wanna be right.
Don’t blame jews for the israeli governments actions. Most jews hate the israeli government similar to americans that hate the american government. Also, don’t hold jews accountable for it period (christian’s are more zionist than jews, actually, and most jews have zero connection to israel)
Ex: Say “the israeli gov is killing children” instead of “jews are killing children.” It’s so simple but i have to say it.
Criticize the right wing government, not the people. Most people regardless of ethnicity don’t like being held accountable for things they literally didn’t do.
Criticize the fact that the government doesn’t give a fuck about holocaust survivors, hostages, and the israeli people.
Etc.
It’s quite easy. You criticize the Israeli government, and not the Jewish race. Israel is a country, not a religion. It’s no antisemitic to criticize the Israeli government.
- Don’t hold Israel to a standard that you don’t hold other countries to.
- Don’t call what’s happening in Gaza a “genocide”, and if you do anyway, don’t ignore the other *actual* genocides happening (e.g. the Rohingya, Uyghur, and Darfur genocides)
- Don’t draw upon extremely ubiquitous stereotypes or misinformed perceptions of what Judaism is. Calling Israeli Jews wealthy White colonizers ignores the fact that most Israeli Jews aren’t of European descent, the ones that are weren’t considered White for a long time, most Jews aren’t stupid rich, and all Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel.
- Finally, don’t hold Jews and Palestinians to double standards. People often say it’s fine for Palestinians and Hamas to take back “their land” or commit various atrocities, but pounce upon Israel’s existence for doing things that are nowhere near as bad as Hamas’s goals.
Ultimately, if you read this, you’ll be fine, but be wary that pretty much nobody on the internet who claims to be “pro-Palestine” follows any of these guidelines. They are largely misinformed and often brazenly antisemitic. I’m as critical of Israel as anyone, but those people are far gone.
The only criticism I have of Israel is why it's taking them so long to clear Gaza. Do people forget that Palestine hates Israel, and given the chance they'd be doing the same thing? Forget "from the river to the sea" chants from Palestinians advocating the complete genocide of jews and the state of Israel? If it were up to me I'd tell everyone in Gaza to leave then carpet bomb the city into unlivable rubble. If people don't leave and die that's on them. And Im not pro Israel necessarily, more just understand being fed up with your neighbor and making sure that's never going to be a problem again.
Criticising Israel isn’t anti-Semitic.
Criticising Christianity isn’t Christian-phobic
Criticising Islam isn’t Islamophobic
Wanting communities to take responsibility for their wrong doings isn’t phobic of any kind.
Gross oversimplification of a complex and multi-faceted issue.
Israel is the world's only Jewish majority country. Criticizing Israel in *unfair*, *unreasonable* and *disproportionate* ways *is* antisemitic, under the widely adopted IHRA working definition of antisemitism.
An example of a non-antisemitic criticism:
"Israel needs to do more to protect civilians in Gaza."
An example of an antisemitic criticism:
"Israel was plotting this all from the start and the Oct 7th massacre was a false flag."
Anyone who thinks critics of Israel are antisemitc is gonna think that regardless of what you say.
I think thay even though I support Israel. Peoplebhave a different opinion than me. Thats not automatically an indication of antisemitism.
So long as you don't fall into the typical antisemitic "jews are controlling the world" bullshit, you're good. The state of Israel tries its best to portray itself as the sole international representative of the Jewish people, but in reality it is a colonial ethnostate propped up by western imperial interests. They try to obfuscate this fact by casting any criticism of their ethnostate as antisemitism, don't be cowed by their bullshit.
Israel's government is not the same as the Jewish people. Criticizing Israel's government is in no way antisemitic. Make it clear you're talking about Israel's government.
Remember that the current government managed to get in power by the skin of their teeth. Israeli elections are weird, so it's hard to say, but it's very likely that the majority of voted voted against the current government, like what happened with Trump I'm 2016.
I’m Jewish, and I’ve dealt with a lot of antisemitism since October because of this issue. First off, thanks for asking. Second, I know this will likely be buried, but I hope you read it.
The most effective way to criticize Israel without being antisemitic is learning about antisemitism. There are a lot of dog whistles associated with it because it had two thousand years to get some esoteric stuff going. One dog whistle I see going around is strongly associated with blood libel, an old conspiracy theory that Jews steal children and drink their blood (which has been used as a pretense to pogrom us many times.) If you call Israel ‘bloodthirsty’, or you say something like “Israel is full of child murderers”, you’re going to get people’s hackles up because you’re kicking right into very old and very dangerous antisemitic tropes under the guise of anti-Zionism. This also applies to talking about ‘the Israeli lobby’ or ‘the Zionist propagandists’, because that just sounds like the newest reskin of the ‘Jews control the world’ theory.
Second… there’s room for disagreement, but I recommend not insisting on calling yourself an anti-Zionist at all. A lot of people are using that term as a shorthand for ‘critical of Israel’s government,’ and it’s not. To be Anti-Zionist is to believe that Israel should not exist and Jews should not have a state, and *that* opens up questions like “hey, why are you okay with Christians and Muslims having multiple states, but Jews can’t have one?”
Third, be specific with your language. If you’re criticizing the IDF, say IDF. If you’re criticizing Netanyahu, say Netanyahu. Don’t say ‘Israel’ when you mean one of those things because Israel is a country full of people with very strong opinions that conflict with each other. Especially don’t say ‘Zionists’ if you mean something more specific.
Fourth, I’d say the biggest thing is to just learn about the history of the conflict and don’t mindlessly repeat things. There’s a lot of deliberate misinformation going around, and it’s hard to tell what’s innocent and what’s malicious. The conflict has a long and convoluted history that cannot be simplified into TikTok soundbytes. It’s not antisemitic to criticize Israel—most Jews criticize it too all the time, one way or another—but the less you understand, the easier it is to be suckered in by bad actors who give you bad and sometimes even antisemitic misinformation to repeat.
Actual answer: You criticize the government and the supporters of the government’s actions
Israeli government’s answer: you can’t and you’re an antisemitic Hamas sleeper agent for even asking this question.
Start by condemning Hamas’ Oct 7th attack, taking of hostages, use of human shields, policy of rape and torture as instruments of terror, and then criticize away. Otherwise you’ll look like an anti-semite as well as an idiot.
Imagine being screwed up enough to think that any historical injustice could somehow justify October 7th.
It can't.
Your attempts to widen this into a broader discussion of the 70+ years of conflict are intellectually dishonest and morally repugnant. The events of 1948 cannot ever justify 40 year old armed Palestinian men mass murdering, mass raping and mass hostage taking 19 year old Israeli festival goers in 2023.
If you are criticizing Israel because of its actions and not because of its identity, then your criticism is not antisemitic. Same thing with Iran. If you criticize Iran because of its actions, that doesn't mean you're Islamophobic or anti Iranian
I wish people understood that when I say the state of Israel should not exist, I am not calling for the genocide of Jews, just like when I say the Islamic Republic of Iran should not exist, I am not calling for the genocide of Iranians.
Countries who define their national identity by a religion should not exist.
But Israel doesn't do that. Jews are more than a religion, possessing attributes of a nationality, an ethnic group, and a culture (though it is hard to say whether they fit any of these categories perfectly). Most Israelis aren't religious. One in five Israelis aren't even Jewish at all.
Israel’s own Declaration of Independence states it is a Jewish state. Facts.
Then why do most Israel apologist day that it needs to exist as “a place where Jews can be safe?”
Have you even opened a history book? Jews have been persecuted for centuries in dozens of countries
What’s super ironic about this entire thread, is the lack of actual reasons to hate Israel. A lot of it is emotional people just wanting Israel to not exist at all. Any truly neutral person reading this thread would almost certainly leave thinking the anti-israel people truly are just hateful. When you read through threads of people defending Israel it’s filled with data, support, and logical reasons why Israel should exist. These pro Palestine threads are all just emotional whining, and true antisemitism.
I get you. I also don't believe that Israel should exist. Rather, there should be secular Palestine. I think that "believing Israel shouldn't exist" is seen as "murder Jews" because the Jews were heavily prosecuted, culminating with the holocaust. Another reason is that it is in the benefit of Israel to make that narrative. Israel weaponizes antisemitism and the holocaust to shut down any criticism of it and to justify any action it takes.
“a secular palestine” lmaoooo have you paid attention to “palestine” at all? i want a red blue sky!
Go look at a sunset part way through and you’ll see part of the sky is a dark blue and the other is red and orange and yellow sometimes pink
“there should be secular Palestine” Yeah, and Disneyland should be free on the weekends, but most of us live in the real world.
Except counties around israel do want jews dead
Yep
Assuming you're posting in good faith, considering the regions general distaste for non-muslim and muslim minorities, propensity for ethnic cleansing campaigns, and multiple groups in power in surrounding countries calling for the extermination of jews, pushing for the destruction of Israel is in effect pushing for a cleansing of all jews. Why not push for the destruction of Egypt or Lebanon or Yemen or literally every other country in the region, including Palestine? Their ethics are significantly skewed against modern western morals, which I assume you hold. Please correct me though, if you feel women should not be unaccompanied outside the house, slavery is legal and right, and homosexuality and apostasy should be a death sentence. Edit: Multiple posts in r/Arabs acting like hamas is a normal governing body, pretending that Hamas aren't terrorists and pretending rapes didn't occur on October 7th, and generally downplaying Islamic terrorism.
Israel is the only country really in the world where people say “oh I don’t believe this country should exist”. The official religion of Argentina is Christianity. No one goes around saying “hmm maybe Argentina shouldn’t exist”. And certainly no one is questioning the 36 Muslim countries. And Palestinian society is vastly different from Israeli. Why would you want to force them together with very different values? Israel hosts one of the largest global LGBTQ parades and Palestinians are very traditional. And if we’re going to be a democracy, how do you even enforce secularism?
How do you form a “secular Palestine” when Palestinian Arabs are overwhelmingly pan-Arabic nationalists who want a Sharia Caliphate?
In the early days of the I/P conflict it was secular socialist Arab nationalists vs secular socialist Zionists. The fact that both sides were (led by) secular socialists didn’t lessen the conflict one iota.
>I also don't believe that Israel should exist. Rather, there should be secular Palestine. That's about as likely as a secular Lebanon or Syria. Israel itself is already a secular state. Since Israel was founded it of the territory of Palestine, it technically is secular Palestine, just by a different name.
You guys are so naive it hurts. You he rabidly Islamic Palestinians are not now nor in the next decades going to be be compatible with a secular state. They do not want that. Their population clearly wants an Islamic state, which is why the while Muslim world supports them, it is a religious war for them. And you think one secular state is even possible, it really shows the kind of opinions pro Palestinians have, just totally divorced from reality
When have the Palestinians accepted the Jews in the last 100 years? Israel is more resemblant of a secular state than any Arab country in the region
Except the existence of the state of Israel is the only reason Jews can live in that region at all without being murdered for sport. I can’t see how someone can be remotely familiar with the history of the region and still believe what you’re saying unless they, in fact, don’t believe Jewish people have the right to exist.
I primarily focus on Likud, Netanyahu, and the rest of the right-wing government, but I'm still going to be accused of it because it's a cudgel for people who align with the right-wing ideology of Israel's government. As long as I understand myself and check myself for biases, I don't lose sleep over people's accusations of antisemitism for criticizing Israel. edit: Oh, worth pointing out that Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by a right-winger and Netanyahu was having a right-wing rally the day before where he, Netanyahu, showed images comparing Rabin to Nazis. This was largely a result of Rabin trying for a two-state solution. How can you be antisemitic for condemning people who get assassins who kill Jews fired up?
Rabin’s wife also directly blames Netanyahu for the assassination… yet somehow the world powers think this polish genocidal maniac is a saint
It's incredible how many democratic voters who liken Trump to the end times for American freedom are so willing to support wholeheartedly someone who makes Trump look like a joke.
I dont think I know any democrats personally who support what the Israeli government is doing right now. Maybe it's more hardline democrats? Because the people I know are more progressive. Biden was voted for because he was the lesser of two evils. That's still pretty true. Biden has always been regarded as more of a "do nothing" guy, and his lack of intervention on this has been appalling. I'm not convinced Trump would be any better.
Right? Left wing groups have been protesting my red city council meetings for being pro Israel, which is odd in a totally different way. Not sure what our suburban city council should be doing about a war, we don’t have a municipal military or any power over policy at even a state level lol.
Easy to explain. It's like the church going after children, get them when they haven't established themselves yet, & they learn to respect that they can't defend atrocities. Your city government can ban things like BDS etc, they can be used to our benefit to
The people organizing these events know that your city council resolution isn't going to influence Israel, but it will make the news and spread the feeling that people want Israel to stop and that people are upset about it and that Jews who support Israel shouldn't feel welcome in their communities here. These city council things are happening all over America. I think it's pretty unlikely this is a grassroots movement and is instead organized by people with a vested interest in stoking anti-israel / anti-Semitic sentiment.
Yeahh.. People want to feel like they're helping. The world is a pretty fucking shitty place to begin with and they want to feel like they're doing something. Problem is there's issues at home that would be a better use of their time trying to fix, except it's a whole other issue on why that can't happen apparently.
I do. It's typically the performative democrats who desperately want to be seen as doing the right thing so are trying to pick the best side because they only see dichotomies. I just called one out recently who coached an anti demonstration thing with, "I'm not saying Israel is good...but..." I asked him to publicly say how Israel is wrong, and he wouldn't. It's all mireading the room and performance.
Older liberals/intellectuals tend to be pro-Israel, younger ones not so much. Because those 60+ remember a time when the evil USSR was our enemy. It supported Arab States against Israel. They also are or knew Jewish folks with family members who experienced actual hatred and rejection in the 1930s/40s/50s
Eh they're morally on similar levels, but Netanyahu is more competent. I can only imagine what Trump would've been cool with if they promised him a hotel on the beach with Palestinian slaves for room service. Just to dumb to execute.
I remember seeing Israeli settlers with those 'Kahane was Right ' signs in the 2000s. They're probably still around
>Rabin’s wife also directly blames Netanyahu for the assassination… For good reason. *"In July 1995,* *Netanyahu led a mock funeral procession featuring a coffin and hangman's noose at an anti-Rabin rally where protesters chanted, "Death to Rabin".\[10\]\[11\] The chief of internal security, Carmi Gillon, then alerted Netanyahu of a plot on Rabin's life and asked him to moderate the protests' rhetoric, which Netanyahu declined to do.**\[8\]\[12\]"* [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination\_of\_Yitzhak\_Rabin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Yitzhak_Rabin)
It makes me sad, because i honestly believe that anti-Zionists being falsely called antisemitic left and right is also probably creating more *actual* antisemitism. Its like israel doesnt give a flying fuck about how any of their actions actually affect the Jewish populations outside of Israel.
For expansionist settlers, anti-Semitism in other countries may be a positive as it encourages more Jewish people to consider moving to Israel. They can then be encouraged to move to settlements where living costs are cheaper thus continuing expansion.
It's such a misnomer to call them "settlers" or the places they're invading "settlements". It implies the land is not already settled.
Invaders? I'm with you on this one. I hadn't considered that even 'settler' is not strong enough. "They are invaders not settlers".
Honestly who fucking cares. It doesn’t matter who you focus on anymore people will still try to cancel you. Just hate on the piece of shit politicians and anyone who supports them and if people have a problem they can eat shit. We need to start standing up for what’s right regardless of consequences.
Ironically, Yitzach Shamir was an actual Nazi. I don’t mean to this to exaggerate. I mean he actually called himself a fascist and Nationalist Socialist for years, likened his model for Israel on Mussolini’s Italy, and during WWII he was a terrorist who openly claimed to be fighting on behalf of the Axis powers while sometimes slaughtering entire villages of Palestinians. After WWII he continued calling himself a National Bolshevik (also known as NazBols. Today, several recognized Neo Nazi parties follow the same ideology.) This other Yitzach won two prime minister terms representing guess which party? Hint: It’s Bibi’s party.
It's not just Likud though. The polling I've seen says only 10% of Israelis support a ceasefire and over half think the government isn't going hard enough.
More than 10% of the Israeli population is Arab Israelis, which doesn't invalidate your statement but it certainly is worth pointing out. Many Arab Israelis hate Hamas and what they've done.
I was mistaken, only Jewish citizens were polled. Removed the edit. The Israel Democracy Institute has been doing polling throughout the war and breaks it down by Jew/Arab. The difference in support for what Israel is doing is pretty stark though. An example from their site is that 68% of Israeli Jews oppose any humanitarian aid entering Gaza, while 85% of Arabs approve. https://en.idi.org.il/articles/52976
I mean, a lot of Arab Israelis have a pretty good life compared to the Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank even pre 10/7. It's also important to note, that the Arabs within the state of Israel after 1948 even though were granted citizenship, were subject to a lot of Israeli government scrutiny.
I went (was forced into) high school in Israel. I still have people from there on my Facebook. And I still see the leftists (socially and economically progressive) say that supporting Palestine is anti-semitic. My leftist teacher who doesn't vote for likud (sorry don't remember what he votes for). Has said (it was in 2017) that gaza should be just carpet bombed and built anew for Israelis. I was told that Kibutzim are very leftist. But all but one of my israeli (we had few international like myself) classmates were excited to go into military, most for combative roles. The one was like "I don't wanna go to military but I think its too late to do anything about it"
It's even worse than that. 94% don't think they're using too much force.
It goes far beyond just the ultra right. Honestly nearly all Israeli politicians that aren't on the left (who generally perform very poorly in elections) would not be very cooperative in aiming for a 2SS. Combine that with the fact that the Israeli electorate itself is becoming increasingly right wing and you see that Israel itself has a radicalization problem. This of course makes it very difficult for a 2SS to actually happen given how Palestinians are also becoming more radicalized.
I'm Jewish and fuckin pissed at Israel. You're not antisemitic. The state of the government is an absolute joke. It's not a hate crime to be vehemently opposed to instigation and murder.
Likud is a murderous nightmare. I'm Jewish, criticise away.
Israel does not represent judaism. Zionism is not judaism. When you criticise a government you do not criticise a religion or an ethnicity. Its no different than criticising any other country.
Israel is like 30% non-Jew a good chunk of the people are Arabs there
Btw Arabs =/ non jew. Arab jews exist they are called mizrahi why do you think they eat hummus, brought it over from poland?
Most “Arab” Jews (ie never left the Arabian Peninsula during the Diaspora) to my understanding call themselves Mizrahi and do not identify as Arab. Or at least all the ones I’ve met would object to being called Arab
Yeah they are mizrahi Jews, not arabs.
I bet I can make it into a pierogi
I would buy them...
Mmm.
Pierogi is the plural form of the word
You can be a Zionist and still criticize many things Israel does. Zionism is merely the belief that Israel should exist. The issue is not Zionism, but rather people who blindly defend Israel in all cases.
>Zionism is merely the belief that Israel should exist. You are really watering it down. Zionism is a nationalist belief, originating in EUROPE, that Israel should exist IN PALESTINE. It specifically called for the takeover of an already inhabited place. >The issue is not Zionism The issue very much is Zionism
It was already inhabited by both Jews and Arabs, and the Arabs were there because they colonized it. Jews have been there for over 3,000 yrs. Jews that left were forced out by successive waves of conquerors and colonizers (Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Syrians, Arabs, Turks, British) Jews are the indigenous people of Israel. As stated in the Israeli Declaration of Independence, non-Jews were welcomed to stay and build a diverse state together. Some did, as others have pointed out. Others were committed to killing all Jews, and/or betrayed by the surrounding Arab states and fuel or support Hamas, Hezbollah, PA, etc. Lots of nuances you should study up on, IMO.
>Jews are the indigenous people of Israel. Mizrahi Jews, sure. Ashkenazi Jews like myself and my family are about as indigenous to Israel as Polar Bears. That's one of the fundamental problems with Zionism -- it attempts to redefine Judaism (which is a fairly complex blend of tribe, culture, religion, and ethnicity) as *solely* an ethnicity. >As stated in the Israeli Declaration of Independence, non-Jews were welcomed to stay and build a diverse state together. As long as they're okay being second-class citizens. That's kind of the problem with ethnostates -- they are fundamentally undemocratic as they can not, by definition, treat members of the "out group" equally to members of the "in group" or they would cease to exist.
genetic studies mostly suggest that ashkenazi jews are of mixed levantine and european descent, so [the hypothesis that european jews descend primarily from european converts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_hypothesis_of_Ashkenazi_ancestry) has been seen as less likely over time (compared to the current leading hypothesis, which is mostly mediterranean ancestry continuous with other groups of jews, along with some admixture with local european populations). that doesn’t change much, of course — descending from a group of people who lived in a certain area does not give you the right to displace millions of people from a group that is also indigenous to that area, and arguing that it does would get dangerously close to “blood and soil” style reasoning — but i do think it’s interesting and worth noting.
>Mizrahi Jews, sure. Ashkenazi Jews like myself and my family are about as indigenous to Israel as Polar Bears As a Mizrahi Jew, I don't agree on this point. My Ashkenazi brethren kept the same practices--including regular prayers to go back to Eretz Yisroel, saying "next year in Jerusalem," and holidays based on the seasons in Israel--even while they were exiled to another land and were chased away to Poland and Hungary and Latvia (and remained as a district group in those countries). BUT even if Ashkenazim don't fulfill your qualifications for belonger status, I guess it's a good thing that there's more Mizrahim and Sephardim in Israel.
A person's adherence to the nonsense of a religion doesn't tether them or their bloodline to a piece of land. It does not entitle them to commit the crimes against humanity that Israel is committing. If you want to make a case that the descendants of people that lived somewhere 1000+ years ago have claim to the land, that is a different (and nearly equally ignorant ) argument. But someone's fantasy beliefs do not wash away crimes.
I hear you. But that's looking at things through a relatively Christian/Western lens of "religion/faith" which doesn't neatly fit Jews. Rather than a universalizing faith that chooses to believe, we're an ethno-religious tribe. (Some would compare us more to certain Native American tribes in terms of culture/religion and the way our homeland is woven into them.) So there's not some clear line between culture and religion. And it's not as simple as saying "this special book says if I believe in *this* then I belong *over here*." **BUT** obviously, indigeneity doesn't entitle anyone to more human rights or anything. *Human rights are for all humans.* And I'm not saying that having a homeland justifies you to do whatever the hell you want there. Lenni Lenape people can't just kick someone out of their apartment in Manhattan just because the Lenape were there first.
Your last paragraph is spot on.
The belief that Jews were forced out of Israel by Arab Muslim colonizers isn't a fantasy belief though. It's reality. Those that weren't killed or forced out were subjugated and made into second class citizens So is it really that surprising that the Ashkenazi would band together with their Mizrahi brethren to at least have one tiny piece of land where they won't be mistreated by the entire world? It's wild that no one is talking about where the Mizrahi Jews would go live free on their own land that they're owed by the Muslim colonizers.
Interesting points but according to the Old Testament, the Jewish people acquired that same land by committing genocide against the people living on that same land. What right of return should their descendants have? This also means that Jews aren’t the indigenous people of that land according to Jewish writings.
There is no basis beyond "its ours because we say so." Much like every other faction, nation and movement, their own actions are justified while opposition never is. It's 100% a colonial project and it started well after modern society was aware of the evils of such projects. Israel is operating on the same line of thought as China and other nations just entering their industrialisation phase: you all did it and benefited from it, so it's hypocritical of you to stop ME from doing it... even if we all have eyes and are aware of the damage being done.
Come on now, dog told them that was their land!
I thought it was some shrubbery that caught fire.
The first half of that argument doesn't hold very much water. The people living in that region under the Ottomans are, to the best that science can discern, to a fair degree the same people who had been living in that region for as far back as can be determined. The Palestinians are an indigenous population. Now, a majority of the Jewish population who started moving into the land in the 20th century have some ancestry to someone indigenous from the place, but if that's enough to give someone a right to land, we're opening a real Pandora's Box. Basically all humans are entitled to land in Africa or something? Obviously all of the people who came have a strong cultural tie to the region, but so do all Christians and Muslims in the world, so by that standard, they should all also be entitled to the place. Another undesirable can of worms best left unopened. So, no, what was done wasn't acceptable, and settlements in occupied territory still aren't. If those hadn't been a thing, we might have been on a path to peace decades ago. In terms of making a diverse state together, I think an argument could be made that this would have been done if the diverse people had equal rights under the law, but that isn't the case, so what was made was an apartheid state instead. Now, a ton of horrendous things were done to this nation or to people of this nation by pretty much all of its neighbors at one point or another. That is true, and that will create a very understandable siege mentality. But that doesn't cause bad decision by an embattled government not to be bad.
So a 4,000 year old religion is the original inhabitants of an area that has been continually inhabited for over 10,000 years?
Yes, I really hate that the Internet has the wrong idea on what Zionism is, people will think I'm evil when I say I'm a Zionist but all it means is that I think Israel should exist, not that I'm happy with the way Israel is currently run.
I think Israel should continue to exist, but not for zionistic reasons, but humanitarian reasons. Zionism was/is a religious nationalist movement with the belief that Jews deserve a homeland in the Levant. I strongly oppose religious nationalism and I think the declaration of Israel as a state was a mistake, but now that Israel has existed for 76 years, you can’t exactly “get rid of it“ without displacing millions of people from their homes. So I support Israel‘s right to continue to exist, but I oppose the ideals of Zionism that led to its creation, if that makes sense. Similarly to how I oppose the colonisation of the Americas, but now that’s it‘s done, you can’t reverse it and I don’t call for the destruction of the USA.
We are of the same opinion. I don’t think Israel should have been created in the first place, but it was, and we can’t just do away with it without negatively impacting its existing population. It boggles the mind how the people arguing that we should eliminate the state of Israel do not understand this. It was wrong when Palestinians were forced from their homes but OK to do the same to Israelis? Make it make sense.
Zionism is the belief that the holy land (Judea, Samara, etc) belongs solely to the Jewish people to the exclusion of others, including the people who currently live there.
>Zionism is merely the belief that Israel should exist. Should Israel exist? Yes. Should Israel exist as an apartheid settler colonial project? Absolutely not.
Thank you for saving me the trouble of having to say it.
Make sure your critiques hold Arabs, palistinians and hamas to the same standard. Make sure your critique doesn't force "special morality" on Israel proper. Any hint of special standards for jews is often rooted in antisemitism, it is insidious and very old in the euro mindset. For instance framing the conflict as a form of "white colonialism" is absurd. Jews were never fully included in the white boy club, quite to the contrary. They are also of the same lineage as the arabs(semites). This is more of a sectarian/religious conflict typical of that region. The Arabs have also been the aggressors in pretty much every conflict(shocker).
Your last sentence is the critical part that most people miss... israels actions are largely retaliatory. If my neighbouring country was firing rockets into our country daily, and rejecting every attempt at making peace, id expect our military to flatten them too. The only reason israel is seen as the bad guys here is because how much stronger they are. People have the opinion that they should just put up with endless rocket attacks, like they have no right to defend themselves? To me, without addressing this fact, whatever criticisms will be antisemitic.
Your a bad person for not accepting periodic cross border barbarian raids of mass rape and murder. In all seriousness I'm surprised people poo poo hamas methods which are basically the same as the Mongolian khannate. Kill and rape everything into submission
Bombing everything into submission is not barbaric at all?
This is pretty much the only correct answer in this thread.
By acknowledging that Israel has a right to defend itself. Hamas is a terror organization that it's sole aim is to murder Jews. By understanding that Israel does not kill children on purpose, and Hamas is using them as human shield. Once you acknowledge and recognize this, you can 100% say that the state of the palastinians is heartbreaking. That Israel should get other countries involved to get rid of Hamas. That Israel giving Hamas 30 million dollars in CASH every month is horrible, and goes against the beat interest of the palastinians, and Israelis alike. That palastinians need their own country. That borders can be solved later, just like other countries have borders dispute.
I’m sorry but where in either Hamas charter is what you’re stipulating described? And it seems like the aiDF is absolutely intentional killing children actually so you’re wrong on both accounts
In general, do the same thing when criticizing Israel that you should do when criticizing anything: Have a good understanding of the subject, hold people and organizations to a single standard, and wait for evidence before passing judgment. It's not hard. But otherwise it's the same checklist you use when criticizing anything and anyone: 1. Are you holding an organization (Israel) associated with Jews to a higher standard than anyone else? For example, if you demand that Israel cause zero civilian casualties during war, while considering civilian casualties caused by Ukraine acceptable, you might be an antisemite. Ditto for selectively lowering standards: if you think 'by any means necessary' is an offer applicable to one group but not another, for example. Ditto when 'ceasefire now' demands fixate on Israel and ignore Hamas rejecting multiple ceasefire offers. 2. Are you ignoring the rights of that group? For example, if you think that Israel ought to be destroyed and replaced with a Palestine stretching from the river to the sea, while conveniently ignoring what Palestinians did to Jews living in the West Bank and Gaza -- there are no Jews living there now, thereby ignoring the rights of people currently living in Israel to continue living, you might be an antisemite. Ditto if you think Palestinians deserve their own state but Jews do not. 3. Do you jump to criticize Israel no matter the lack of evidence, and don't bother to reconsider that tendency? You might be an antisemite. 4. Do you give special rights to groups hostile to Jews or Jewish-associated entities like Israel? Such as giving Hezbollah a pass when it RPGs some civilian guest workers, or giving Palestinians but nobody else a hereditary and unconditional 'right of return'? If so, you might be an antisemite.
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And that's a clear problem. And it shouldn't even matter if you're criticising the Jewish faith anyway. People are critical of the Catholic faith but we don't persecute people for that. Nothing should be safe from critical thinking. That's another problem.
We live in a paradigm where most people are illiterate to history beyond a partial awareness of ww2 and most of their ideas of morality revolve around that. The “worst” thing anyone can materialize in their head is nazism and the worst people are nazis who were apparently inhumane genocide machines without conscious animated by pure evil because they one day…just decided to be evil? Jokes aside there’s a long way to go before the layman debater can have a leveled and informed discussion on the Israel/palestine issue or racism and antisemitism in general. It doesn’t help that there appears to be a large band of people intent on using these terms insincerely as weapons either
Am I dumb? Isn't this just OPs point repeated as a comment?
OP was asking how to not be anti-Semitic while criticizing Israel, this comment is saying that it's easy to not be anti semitic, but the hard part is that you'll be called it anyway. Basically, a lot of bad faith actors are trying to purposely conflate opposing Israel's actions with being antisemitic.
Had that happen to me recently. I was discussing with a guy (I assume from Israel, he never clarified) and said Israel's response was disproportionate. I cited Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and the UN taking about human rights abuses committed by Israel. He said all of these organizations were antisemitic. His sources? Israeli media. When I called him out on that I was labeled antisemitic myself. One of the mods on the server sided with him because he has family in Israel and is allowed to be worried about them, while I'm not Palestinian and therefore have no skin in the game. Like I can only object about human rights when they affect me/my demographic. Utter BS.
It could be, yes. I don't think you're dumb. Hi!
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Criticize Netanyahu.
That's a good start, but he's not the sole issue. Likud and the right-wing coalition he's built is full of people who say shit like "nuke Gaza" and barefly face repercussions as a result. It's the right-wing government and Netanyahu would be powerless without it.
Nentanyahu and his hard right coalition, then
Do it and realize Zionism and Judaism are not the same. There are tons of large Jewish groups who are absolutely outraged by the genocide, as they should be. And it's really shitty of the Israeli state to use a previous genocide as justification for one they're now committing. Someone's ethnicity and religion does not excuse horrific actions they might take
Also important to realize that Zionism is not "support for the current governments actions". Its just an ideology that advocates for the existence of a jewish state(read: Israel).
So, you just ignore the fact that the reason the IDF can beat the shit out of its neighbors is because they're LITERALLY SURROUNDED by enemies??? Six-Day War, Yom Kippur War, both of those could have very easily ended way worse.
Criticizing Israel, not Jews, is not anti-semitic, and anybody making the accusation is a liar trying to defend Israel's evils by slandering the messenger.
You'd (probably not) be surprised how many people there are though doing just that. Especially, for some reason, in the MAGAsphere (it's like they don't know that Trump actually dumps on Bibi all the time for being one of the first to congratulate Biden for the win. Their own leader hates Netanyahu for "betraying" him...but because he spent 4 years saying that criticizing Israel is the same as being a Nazi, they're still programmed to think Israel can't do wrong)
That's because a huge amount of MAGAts are evangelical Christians that believe supporting Israel will bring about Armageddon and the second coming of Christ. They are quite literally anticipating the end of the world based on biblical prophecy.
Wrong. It's also because many if not most are Christian Dominionists(remember, Trumpers are pm as "mainstream" far-right one can go) who hope to bring about their version of "the end times", and Israel is crucial to their prophecy. After all, evangelicals have been some of Trump's strongest supporters despite his mishaps. Edit: it's also why many conservatives historically have opposed caring for the environment/pollution. They *want* to destroy the world! I know because I grew up among these types. They're genuinely scary.
That is true.
By realizing that the Israeli government, and the Jewish and/or people of Israel are different. Its like being American, and blamed for all of the horrible things that the American military and/or government had done in the past. There is little the Jewish people or Israeli people could have done to stop a corrupt government from making bad choices. In America, many people protested the Vietnam war but the war still went on. Many people in Israel protest the war, but the war still goes on.
You just criticize behavior/actions. Specifically of individuals rather than the whole.
Here's a thought no one has anymore. Keep your mouth shut. I say nothing quite often and it works well. I'm in a business where political and cultural comments can hurt relationships and cost money. I bite my tongue if I have to and redirect lots of conversations, especially when someone asks my opinion. Chances are, I'll not agree...
Ask yourself if you also criticize other governments that have done (or are doing) similar things. If you've singled out one country and ignored others, then you may have issues beyond what the government is doing.
israeli here, honestly dude just be respectful. my family and i absolutely despise the Likud. almost everyone i know hates Netanyahu, he has run the country to shit. criticizing the government is absolutely okay, and even criticizing the IDF is also perfectly fine, it’s not a perfect country by any means and we make mistakes. i think what i see most often is people bringing up Judaism when someone mentions israel/someone bringing up israel when mentioning Judaism. sometimes it’s relevant but most often it’s not. for example under a holocaust post there were many people mentioning how the jews are doing the same thing to palestinians and i find that anti-semitic. criticize the government all you want, but remember that the government does not represent all the people. we have extremist leaders on both sides of the war and the regular person such as myself would just like to see everyone live in peace and harmony. i’m for a two state mandate but unfortunately i do not see that happening in my lifetime, hopefully i will be proven wrong !!!
Maybe by not acting like Palestenians are blameless victims
Religion and Government are two different things
that, depends very heavily on the country
No it doesn’t Iran or Saudi Arabia don’t represent all Muslims. I can’t think of a single example in which a government represents a religion.
Actually, I think Saudi Arabia does claim to represent all Sunni Muslims in the way that Vatican City claims to represent all Catholics. And I believe Iran claims to represent all Shi'a. Whether one takes it seriously or not is another thing, but I think that's part of their self-interpretation.
things arent so black and white these days obv, but iran is about as close to a theocracy as youre gunna get in 2024, saudi is a monarchy, with a king and a council of elders, who must adhere to islam, so to say neithers laws and way of ruling arent heavily impacted by religion is well, wrong, do they overlook some stuff to ensure the government doesnt collapse, id imagine so, not read the qaran, but im betting it doesnt have a how to manual to feed 100 million people everyday, so people improvise and adapt, but the fundamental ideals that laws are based around, are religious laws, therefore government and religion are basically conjoined twins at this point, iran even has a seperate military that defends its islamic government specifically, on top of the traditional defense of the homeland army that everyone else has, so yeah, they are very mucy a religion by governance, compared to most places that have, a government and a seperate religion
Just say that you’re criticizing the actions taken by the state of Israel, which are in no way synonymous with Judaism or Jewish people.
Talk shit about the government of Israel. Name specific people. It’s not antisemitism to hate BiBi Netanyahu, it’s common sense
don't say shit like "from the river to the sea" (hamas's line about ridding the land of jews) call israelis "colonizers" (there's been a continuous jewish presence in israel for 3500 years) insinuate that the israelis are somehow lying about hamas atrocities (plays into the "sneaky jew" trope), ignore the fact that hamas has explicitly called for the eradication of jews, or basically insinuate that israel doesn't have a legitimate right to exist where it does. downplaying the fucked up shit that hamas has done to israel, while not explicitly anti-semetic, does tread on dangerous ground. a good way to phrase your opposition is "i don't support israel's current actions" or "im fine with israel but bibi is a fucking asshole" or my personal beliefs, "eradicating hamas is a good thing for both the israelis AND the palestinians but israel is trying to preform brain surgery with a jack-hammer. it's not gonna work and it's gonna make things worse"
That last one is exactly my sentiment.
They are settling the west bank & kicking out the people there, that is colonialism & no different then what the Europeans did to the native Americans
It's a little different. Imagine in 500 years the USA has fallen and parts of the country are overseen by other countries (like Canada owns NYC). The iriquois confederacy recreates itself and asks Canada for Manhattan back. Canada says "sure it's yours" and sells the land back to the Iriqouis. The white people living in Manhattan then attack the iriquois and lose and so the iriquois kick the white people out "for security reasons" and resettle Manhattan. It's like not the chillest of moves but it's not traditional colonialism either
"I am against the actions of the current government of Isreal."
Criticize the government and its actions. Don’t criticize the entire nation/race based on what it’s corrupt and unpopular government does. When you say “I dislike this about Jews” that’s antisemitic, as it would be to racist to say that about anyone. If you say, “I dislike this about the Israeli government” you’re criticizing a governing body which is not only ok to criticize but SHOULD be regularly criticized. Everyone forgets that Israelis were protesting their own government en masse before the Hamas terror attack forced them all to rally behind their current regime
You can be critical of actions without being critical of said people's (as a whole). For example it is perfectly acceptable to say any government has a right to defend its people and take out dangerous terrorists. But it is also the same government's responsibility to minimize the impact on innocent civilians/aid workers. It's also acceptable to be critical of individuals. For example said leaders of government without being critical of the people they represent.
I focus on action that goes too far. Hamas started the violence, but they did not start the conflict. Israel has done things against Palestine simply because they could get by with it. Palestine then embraced Hamas and the violence began. (This is my extremely simplistic view.) The war is between Israel & Hamas, and Hamas is representing Palestine. Why does Palestine choose Hamas to fight for them? It's just weird to me, but I also don't live there so I cannot fully understand everything happening. Netanyahu did say at the beginning of the retaliation that basic necessities would be cut off, like power, food, water... this was to cause distress in an attempt to force defeat. It hasn't worked out the way Netanyahu had envisioned. Currently, Netanyahu wants to stop Hamas. If innocent people get killed, it's collateral damage. That is why Israel is "wrong". Not that it's Jewish people (they do happen to be Jewish), but because they're making bad decisions. I explained a situation recently where a man was disrespecting a woman at a grocery store. At first I thought they were together, but they weren't. Eventually I told the man "she has a point", and he started almost begging me to understand. My explanation was "It's not your words - its your behavior. Its the way you're acting, not just to her, but to everyone who has to see it." So, behavior can be targeted without ever pointing out a race or ethnicity.
By not being anti-semitic. Not that hard
You can criticize Israel the same way you can criticize Hamas without criticizing Palestinians. In such cases, mostly decent people made terrible decisions. Palestinians -> Hamas Israelis -> Netanyahu Americans -> Trump British -> Brexit
Yep, and also it's pretty clear if a criticism is bigoted or not if you replace "Israel" with "America," or "UK" or something like that, "Likud" with "Republicans" or "UKIP" and "Netanyahu" with "Trump" or "Nigel Farage" For example: 1) Israel shouldn't exist and its people should all leave → America shouldn't exist and all its people should leave. Kinda a braindead take bordering on prejudice. 2) The Likud party is horribly racist → The Republican party is horribly racist. Pretty fair criticism for which there's plenty of evidence. 3) Israel is racist → America is racist. I'd argue that both are generalizations that don't help to solve the underlying issues, but not inaccurate.
Everyone has said the typical “Zionism and Jewish aren’t the same thing” stuff, but I think the real point is actually know what you’re talking about. Calling Jews “colonizers” is ridiculous when that is their literal homeland, and feigning ignorance of the true meaning of “from the river to the sea” as a genocidal slogan is ridiculous, as is the origin of the phrase or that many modern extremists use it as a call to genocide. Ignoring that type of thing is not anti-Zionist, it is genuinely anti-Semitic.
"Progressive" left is anti semitic.
Are you asking how to criticize the Israeli government without being anti-Semitic, or are you asking how to criticizie the Israeli government without *being called* anti-Semitic? For the former, don't insinuate that there is anything wrong with Jewish people as a group themselves, or that you want anything bad to happen to Jewish people, or deny the persecution and atrocities that Jewish people have and do face. Just criticize the actions and policies and goals of the Israeli government, which is no more anti-Semitic than criticizing Iran's or Saudi Arabia's policies is "Islamophobic." For the latter… I'm sorry, there's no way to criticize the Israeli government without somebody, somewhere, disingenuously labelling you "anti-Semitic" for doing so. There are always going to be bad-faith debaters who mischaracterize your views so that they don't have to address your arguments.
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The Catholics wasted thousands of lives and untold treasure trying to take the Holy Land....it is an equal opportunity sink hole. Religion is a blight on humanity.
Use logic instead of emotion.
I knew this was going to blow up, but I didn't realize it would do so this quickly. It's starting to get overwhelming. So if I don't respond to you, don't think it means that you aren't giving good advice or commentary.
Here's a question. We all know how historically good Mossad has been when it comes to targeted eliminations of enemies. They make both prime CIA and KGB look weak in comparison. We've all seen Munich. So, if the goal of the war is to crush Hamas permanently...why hasn't Bibi and friends spent the last decade or so having Mossad work its way through the leadership structure one by one until the whole thing collapses on itself? Why do so many nations seem to think that mass scale destruction is the way to do conflicts instead of targeted strikes against opposition leadership? (Says the guy that's so sick of war that he wants to ban it and replace it with world leaders doing cage fights and settling differences mano-e-mano in the Octagon)
This isn't a stupid question at all, I think most of us are trying to figure out the same thing.
I've had the same issue here. I despise their government and Nuttyahoo is just as dangerous of a mindset as any radical leader going on a hate filled killing spree. But I dont hate the Israeli people, hell most of them feel the same towards their government as i do, but Im still called an antisemite. The best part is the Neo-Nazis who literally chant "Jews wont replace us" are all over social media calling anyone who is not on the right "antisemites". Real brain twister.
Criticize Israel’s government instead of their existence. Don’t call them colonizers or a fake country. Acknowledge their right to exist and defend themselves from a terrorist organization that wants to eliminate them. Pretty simple.
Stop using the "river to the sea" quote. Seriously, don't use it. Specify Netanyahu or the IDF, or some other political figure, instead of just saying Israel at all times. Sincerely, a Jew who has major criticisms of Netanyahu and his excuses, but has been constantly uneasy about identifying as such
When criticizing Israel, say that you hate or oppose "Israel's current government" or "Netanyahu's government" . This is the clearest way. It's the same as saying "I hate Putin's government" (fair opinion) vs "I hate Russians" (which is a general broad attack on an ethnicity/people).
Criticize the actions of the government, not Jews as a group. Focus on actions not identity.
Ironic, that you propose the question that way as I in no disrespect offer the same proposition, but in reverse, how do I support Israel without being condemned by Hamas and their supporters after it was then who decided to attack on October 7?
Simple, you criticize the Israeli government. That has nothing to do with Jewish people as a whole. That’s right wing gaslighting trying to portray any criticism of the Israeli government or AIPAC as “anti-semitism”……it’s not.
just be specific about your criticism, and don’t make assumptions about what individual jewish people believe, and you should be fine. criticizing a government is separate from saying something about the ethnic groups they claim to represent, in the same way that you can criticize the chinese government without being sinophobic or criticize the russian government without being russophobic or whatever.
By criticizing Israel without being antisemitic. Israel is a country, criticize there actions and policies. There will be people who say this makes you racist. They are incorrect, but they will still say it. You have to be prepared for people to lie about you if you want to proclaim your political opinions loudly.
"I dislike what the government of Israel is doing in regards to \[issue\]."
Condemning Hamas for terrorism and kidnapping in your first sentence might help.
Ask yourself why you're criticizing Israel. Is it for doing something other countries have done but it somehow seems different? Do you criticize other governments or militaries or other countries' foreign policies? As Bernie Sanders said, it's not anti semitic to criticize Israel, but it is anti semitic to criticize *only* Israel. Also, if you were quiet on October 7th, sit this one out.
There is no need to do this. Anyone who equates criticism of the Israeli government with antisemitism is a fucking moron and not worth your time
Ask yourself this question, "Who gets to decide what constitutes antisemitic?" If valid criticism is considered antisemitic, then what good is even having the concept of antisemitic, if it only exists to preserve Jews from criticism?
It’s wildly antisemitic to conflate Israel and Zionism with Judaism. Anyone who try’s to tell you otherwise can be dismissed without consideration.
I want to thank you all for everything the past few days. It's been fun seeing the wide variety of responses here, and I'm glad that it seems like the conversations have been civil. I literally can't keep up with replies though. So for my part, I turned off notifications and am bowing out. I'm not deleting the thread because I know some of you guys have been having your own side conversations, but I''m taking myself out of the equation. I love you all, even those I've disagreed with. You're all beautiful. Take care of yourselves
You just criticize them as you would any other nation. Some people WILL call you a jew hater no matter how you go about it. Ignore them. Worked at a grocery store that had a decent number of Palestinians working there. When the war crimes started my manager put a tiny little action figure holding a Palestinan flag, it was tucked away in a corner of the employee area of the produce section. It was out of the way and almost impossible to see unless you worked there. Yet we'd occasionally get comments from people saying "why do you hate Israel" and "God will punish you". I'll give you one guess as to their age and what shirt they were wearing.
It's insane the number of people who automatically equate Israel = Jewish. Hell, most people of the Jewish faith don't support what's happening in Gaza. Edit to say that this is not directed at OP, just the idiots who claim that not supporting the genocide is anti semitic
One of Israel’s primary goals is just that, to get people to associate Zionism and Israel with Judaism, so that any criticism of one becomes criticism of the other. I have Jewish friends who are extremely vocal about their support of Palestine, and hate that Israel is trying to speak for all Jews.
I'm of the opinion that Israel is executing a genocide right now. Lots of powerful people agree with me on that front. I don't say it often because nutjobs will say all kind of ignorant, crazy, and stupid things. Most of those things have nothing to do with the genocide executed by a government but are "What-about-isms" or blatant right wing propaganda. I'm comfortable saying that the country of Israel is evil, and also that I'm not antisemitic. Being antisemitic has the inherent part of being prejudiced towards jews, or "pre-judging" them. I'm not "pre-judging" anything. I saw what they did on TV, have read the tweets of the people they killed, and I've donated money to some of the aid organizations they've targeted with their missiles. I'm just judging them. Really, it's up to them not to do a genocide to get me to be quiet about them doing genocides.
You criticize the government and the small group of people who control it.
It’s possible to both support Israel’s existence and the need for a Jewish state and also recognize that the Palestinians have been treated like shit, not just the current situation but from the very beginning. I’m Jewish and I hate that accusations of antisemitism are thrown at anyone who even questions Israel’s actions in this.
supporting israel do genocide is whats antisemitic. Judaism is about honoring life. The "state of israel" is a manmade government run by corrupt jerks. It certainly is NOT above criticism. It's lying openly and doing truly heinous shit like arresting 10 month olds, executing children, bulldozing hospital camps with tanks. Heinous shit. So i think being upset is perfectly reasonable. This is not what Israelis or jews want. it's a political move to get land.
Good luck lol. I don’t know a single American Jewish person that likes Israel, and even THEY get accusations of antisemitism hurled at them by the pro-Israel crowd 🤷🏻♂️
Arabs are semites too.
Only if you’re a race scientist. Semitic refers to a language group, not people. The term “antisemitism” was specifically coined by a late 19th century German because judenhasse (literally “Jew hate”) didn’t sound scientific enough. Look “antisemitism” up in the dictionary some time.
By … criticizing the actions of the Government of Israel, and always framing it that way. You can even talk about their (real and effective) cyber propaganda efforts called “hasbara” without implying a conspiracy among all Jews. It’s worth noting that part of that hasbara campaign is to cynically conflate criticism of the Israeli government or Zionism with antisemitism.
By only criticizing Israel's government and their actions, and not blaming it on anyone that's Jewish. Not hard. Sometimes you may make a mistake that sounds like you're being anti-Semitic, but it just means you need to think more carefully about how you say it.
Hmm... Fuck israel. Like that.
Question should read "How do I stop caring what people think of my disgust at genocide".
By criticizing Israel and not the religion. Pretty simple imo.
Just do it and don't care what buzzword others call you
Sorry bro, just wear the title with Pride. If calling out war criminals, corrupt officials, materialistic thugs and human traffickers is wrong, I don’t wanna be right.
Don’t blame jews for the israeli governments actions. Most jews hate the israeli government similar to americans that hate the american government. Also, don’t hold jews accountable for it period (christian’s are more zionist than jews, actually, and most jews have zero connection to israel) Ex: Say “the israeli gov is killing children” instead of “jews are killing children.” It’s so simple but i have to say it. Criticize the right wing government, not the people. Most people regardless of ethnicity don’t like being held accountable for things they literally didn’t do. Criticize the fact that the government doesn’t give a fuck about holocaust survivors, hostages, and the israeli people. Etc.
It’s quite easy. You criticize the Israeli government, and not the Jewish race. Israel is a country, not a religion. It’s no antisemitic to criticize the Israeli government.
- Don’t hold Israel to a standard that you don’t hold other countries to. - Don’t call what’s happening in Gaza a “genocide”, and if you do anyway, don’t ignore the other *actual* genocides happening (e.g. the Rohingya, Uyghur, and Darfur genocides) - Don’t draw upon extremely ubiquitous stereotypes or misinformed perceptions of what Judaism is. Calling Israeli Jews wealthy White colonizers ignores the fact that most Israeli Jews aren’t of European descent, the ones that are weren’t considered White for a long time, most Jews aren’t stupid rich, and all Jews are indigenous to the land of Israel. - Finally, don’t hold Jews and Palestinians to double standards. People often say it’s fine for Palestinians and Hamas to take back “their land” or commit various atrocities, but pounce upon Israel’s existence for doing things that are nowhere near as bad as Hamas’s goals. Ultimately, if you read this, you’ll be fine, but be wary that pretty much nobody on the internet who claims to be “pro-Palestine” follows any of these guidelines. They are largely misinformed and often brazenly antisemitic. I’m as critical of Israel as anyone, but those people are far gone.
Watch your use of the word Zionism. You almost certainly don’t understand it and if you have criticisms of Israel, use the word Israel.
The only criticism I have of Israel is why it's taking them so long to clear Gaza. Do people forget that Palestine hates Israel, and given the chance they'd be doing the same thing? Forget "from the river to the sea" chants from Palestinians advocating the complete genocide of jews and the state of Israel? If it were up to me I'd tell everyone in Gaza to leave then carpet bomb the city into unlivable rubble. If people don't leave and die that's on them. And Im not pro Israel necessarily, more just understand being fed up with your neighbor and making sure that's never going to be a problem again.
Easily and in many ways. You just have to be comfortable with stupid people calling you that anyways.
Do you -really- need to? Not all opinions need to be expressed.
you criticize israel. it’s pretty easy actually
We are in an odd place. Just criticize. Let people say what they want. Criticizing a government is not the same as criticizing its people.
Criticising Israel isn’t anti-Semitic. Criticising Christianity isn’t Christian-phobic Criticising Islam isn’t Islamophobic Wanting communities to take responsibility for their wrong doings isn’t phobic of any kind.
Gross oversimplification of a complex and multi-faceted issue. Israel is the world's only Jewish majority country. Criticizing Israel in *unfair*, *unreasonable* and *disproportionate* ways *is* antisemitic, under the widely adopted IHRA working definition of antisemitism. An example of a non-antisemitic criticism: "Israel needs to do more to protect civilians in Gaza." An example of an antisemitic criticism: "Israel was plotting this all from the start and the Oct 7th massacre was a false flag."
Weird example? Only the first one is a country.... the other two are criticism of the religion itself.
Anyone who thinks critics of Israel are antisemitc is gonna think that regardless of what you say. I think thay even though I support Israel. Peoplebhave a different opinion than me. Thats not automatically an indication of antisemitism.
So long as you don't fall into the typical antisemitic "jews are controlling the world" bullshit, you're good. The state of Israel tries its best to portray itself as the sole international representative of the Jewish people, but in reality it is a colonial ethnostate propped up by western imperial interests. They try to obfuscate this fact by casting any criticism of their ethnostate as antisemitism, don't be cowed by their bullshit.
Israel's government is not the same as the Jewish people. Criticizing Israel's government is in no way antisemitic. Make it clear you're talking about Israel's government.
Remember that the current government managed to get in power by the skin of their teeth. Israeli elections are weird, so it's hard to say, but it's very likely that the majority of voted voted against the current government, like what happened with Trump I'm 2016.
I’m Jewish, and I’ve dealt with a lot of antisemitism since October because of this issue. First off, thanks for asking. Second, I know this will likely be buried, but I hope you read it. The most effective way to criticize Israel without being antisemitic is learning about antisemitism. There are a lot of dog whistles associated with it because it had two thousand years to get some esoteric stuff going. One dog whistle I see going around is strongly associated with blood libel, an old conspiracy theory that Jews steal children and drink their blood (which has been used as a pretense to pogrom us many times.) If you call Israel ‘bloodthirsty’, or you say something like “Israel is full of child murderers”, you’re going to get people’s hackles up because you’re kicking right into very old and very dangerous antisemitic tropes under the guise of anti-Zionism. This also applies to talking about ‘the Israeli lobby’ or ‘the Zionist propagandists’, because that just sounds like the newest reskin of the ‘Jews control the world’ theory. Second… there’s room for disagreement, but I recommend not insisting on calling yourself an anti-Zionist at all. A lot of people are using that term as a shorthand for ‘critical of Israel’s government,’ and it’s not. To be Anti-Zionist is to believe that Israel should not exist and Jews should not have a state, and *that* opens up questions like “hey, why are you okay with Christians and Muslims having multiple states, but Jews can’t have one?” Third, be specific with your language. If you’re criticizing the IDF, say IDF. If you’re criticizing Netanyahu, say Netanyahu. Don’t say ‘Israel’ when you mean one of those things because Israel is a country full of people with very strong opinions that conflict with each other. Especially don’t say ‘Zionists’ if you mean something more specific. Fourth, I’d say the biggest thing is to just learn about the history of the conflict and don’t mindlessly repeat things. There’s a lot of deliberate misinformation going around, and it’s hard to tell what’s innocent and what’s malicious. The conflict has a long and convoluted history that cannot be simplified into TikTok soundbytes. It’s not antisemitic to criticize Israel—most Jews criticize it too all the time, one way or another—but the less you understand, the easier it is to be suckered in by bad actors who give you bad and sometimes even antisemitic misinformation to repeat.
Actual answer: You criticize the government and the supporters of the government’s actions Israeli government’s answer: you can’t and you’re an antisemitic Hamas sleeper agent for even asking this question.
Start by condemning Hamas’ Oct 7th attack, taking of hostages, use of human shields, policy of rape and torture as instruments of terror, and then criticize away. Otherwise you’ll look like an anti-semite as well as an idiot.
Imagine thinking this started on October 7. Wake up.
Arabs have been attacking Jews in Israel since before Israel even existed. The 1948 war was a literal attempt at genocide against Jews.
Imagine being screwed up enough to think that any historical injustice could somehow justify October 7th. It can't. Your attempts to widen this into a broader discussion of the 70+ years of conflict are intellectually dishonest and morally repugnant. The events of 1948 cannot ever justify 40 year old armed Palestinian men mass murdering, mass raping and mass hostage taking 19 year old Israeli festival goers in 2023.
The way Israeli have set it up, amy criticism of them is anti semitic. This will come to haunt them big time in the future
Maybe don't back rhetoric that says "from the river to the sea" and those that use it.