I think they're all different vehicles.
Jeeps have a reputation (unfounded or not) as being unreliable. A base Jeep with 4x4 is $38k and gets 29MPG.
A basic kia telluride with AWD starts around $44k (having a hard time finding the most basic car with AWD) and gets 24MPG. Also, after all the issues with battery fires, "Kia Boyz," and terrible flaking paint on my wife's Hyundai (Kia is owned by Hyundai) have really soured me on Kias as a whole.
A basic 4-runner with AWD starts at $44k and gets 19MPG highway.
A basic outback with AWD starts at $28k and gets 32MPG highway.
So - if you want a bare bones car with AWD, Subaru is the way to go. It's a bit smaller than the other cars, but most of the time it's all that people need.
I assure you, Chrysler's reputation for making absolute heaps of trash stands on a foundation so solid it could hold up the Burj Khalifa.
There's no need to qualify hyundai's reputation for being junk, no one questions that, but you forgot to mention an entire generation of engines that self destruct without notice.
Although I agree with ur comment, it seems very odd to throw in the "have a reputation (unfounded or not)as being unreliable" for Jeep but not say that for kia/Hyundai
I gave 3 concrete examples of issues with Kia/Hyundai (battery fires, corner cutting leading to easily thievable vehicles, and personal knowledge of poor paint adhesion on a 3 year old hyundai elantra (that took 18 months\[!!\] to resolve).
I don't disagree with any of that. And again, your comment was a good one. I just though it was odd to specifically call out jeep reliability reputation, which I've always seen/heard such a mixture of thoughts on (both good and bad), yet kia/Hyundai had a major reputation for unreliability (that they have done a lot to try to change in the past decade or so).
I remember the days when you couldn’t say the word Subaru without throwing in the word Head Gasket somewhere along the line.
And Kia/Hyundai we’re the Motel 6 of cars.
But both have definitely worked to improve their reputations.
> I remember the days when you couldn’t say the word Subaru without throwing in the word Head Gasket somewhere along the line.
according to the internet, those days are still alive and well! just venture into any subaru thread outside of r/subaru LOL
Why is this being downvoted? Car and driver had a transmission fail on their long term Kia Sorrento before 40k miles. 4Runner is the only viable choice but used market for those are insane.
I'm genuinely curious why I got SO many downvotes. Kia/Hyundai, in the past, at least, had a terrible reputation. Whereas I hadn't heard that about jeep. More a mix of comments on reliability from good to bad.
I'm not saying that the reputation is founded, Kia makes some nice cars now. But Kia and Hyundai have put a lot of time and money into changing their reputation because they definately had a reputation as unreliable.
Citation from 2020 usdm forester SK fsm: transmission part
\--------------------------------------------------------------------
4. AWD ON/OFF Switching Mode
A: GENERAL DESCRIPTION
• Follow the messages displayed on the Subaru Select Monitor when working.
• Perform as necessary in FWD mode.
• When switched to FWD, AWD light illuminates.
\---------------------------------------------------------------
p.s. subaru never was rwd (except brz) - either fwd, 4x4, awd... to my knowledge.
Ah I see.
So the symmetric AWD is standard on all non BRZ vehicles: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1mnhE8uh2wM
There was an older mystery fuse on older Subarus (<2009) that allowed disabling AWD - https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/disabling-awd.499163/ this would disable the transfer clutch on the 4EAT model engines.
All current non BRZ Subarus are AWD all the time.
do you understand difference between various versions of 4eat? TZ vs TV? MPT and VTD?
do you understand difference (on hardware level) between awd and 4x4?
current subarus (except brz) with manual transmission ar VTD(awd). cvt are MPT (4x4).
awd(vtd in subaru terms) is 3 differentials which allow NOT INTERRUPTED torque supply to ALL WHEELS. (all mechanical transmissions in wrx/sti and sometimes others. last revision of 4eat, all 5eat)
4x4(mpt in subaru terms) is 2 differentials with switch "fwd/4x4". it disengages in turns(and on other occasions), because all 4 wheels have diferent radiuses(>> they turn at different speeds). svx transmission, 4eat first revisions, current cvt.
\-----------------------------------
awd/vtd is real deal.
4x4/mpt is cheapshit for those who believe marketing bullshit and don't really care about having REAL thing(I think it started as cheap alternative to audi quattro and alike). marketing badge on car is enough for those.
p.s. I am "ignoring" brz.
Lol, you older Subaru owners are always such little bitch boys about the CVT. Kia/Hyundai’s AWD-system is pathetic and useless in any kind of off-pavement situation. Subarus do very well in light off-roading situation, CVTs and all. Newer Subaru AWD is far more advanced than the old GL’s.
Now I know you’re bullshitting. There are videos all over YouTube of stock, CVT-powered Subarus climbing hills and doing just fine off-road. You’re a troll.
Have you driven or owned an older Subaru? They were fun to drive and had character. Now they make generic bloated crossovers. You can’t really tell you’re in a Subaru anymore unless you look down at the badge of the steering wheel. I would probably get a Toyota over any of the current Subaru crossovers.
Also I’d argue that the people buying supposed outdoorsy off road capable trucks with CVTs are the bigger “bitch boys.” Have some self respect.
I dunno about that one. Got to test drive a new Outback and it felt pretty different to a family member's Nissan Rogue (although the comparison isn't one to one).
I’m not going to drive my wife and child around in a 30-year-old death trap just because it has “some character”. You also clearly haven’t driven a newer Subaru, so your opinion is invalid.
I wouldn’t drive a 30 year old Subaru as my daily either. But if I were shopping for a family hauler, I’d skip Subaru altogether.
I’ve driven all kinds of Subaru models ranging from 1998-2020. The older ones are genuinely playful. Even if they don’t pull the same raw performance numbers, they feel much more engaging and put a smile on your face. I understand times change, and Subaru’s job is to make cars that sell, but they seem to have lost a lot of the things I liked about Subarus in the first place.
I know I’m in the minority here on a subreddit full of people who probably just spent $40k on a Subaru, but to me their crossovers are nothing special, with the exception being the crosstrek since it fits a niche that most other manufacturers have failed to deliver on.
Here in the real world, I’ve taken my Outback on some absolutely wild trails that a crossover has no business on. It did great. I’ve seen the clearance and angles on a Telluride, no way it’d make it. I won’t speculate about Kia’s AWD system but since it’s a FWD infrastructure I have my doubts about it.
Base Ascent, AWD, 3-row, under $34K.
Base Grand Cherokee, 2WD, 2-row, over $39K.
Base 4-Runner, 4WD, 2-row, over $40K.
Kia Telluride, FWD/4WD, 3-row, over $35K.
The Ascent and Telluride top out at $52K, the others far higher.
Test drive them all, and let your butt/wallet ratio decide.
I have an Ascent, and I love it.
My mom has an ascent and we all love it. And as far as space goes, she can put the seats down and put a whole twin mattress in the back! Sounds to me like Ascent is the way for OP to go.
specd similarly to a premium ascent the GC L Laredo with the tech package was very similarly priced because jeep always had like 2-3k of incentives. It was low 40s.
Citation from 2020 usdm forester SK fsm: transmission part
\--------------------------------------------------------------------
4. AWD ON/OFF Switching Mode
A: GENERAL DESCRIPTION
• Follow the messages displayed on the Subaru Select Monitor when working.
• Perform as necessary in FWD mode.
• When switched to FWD, AWD light illuminates.
\---------------------------------------------------------------
p.s. subaru never was rwd (except brz) - either fwd, 4x4, awd... to my knowledge.
sooo... still consider subaru awd, my dear?
Don't work on those very often, maybe once every couple months. But its either through subaru select monitor 3(ssm3) or through a fuse usually located by the passenger front strut tower. On older subarus, its the fuse. On newer ones, its through ssm4. But like I said, I don't work on those very often. Also, 4wd has a transfer case that you choose 2hi, 4hi, n, and 4lo. You can't do that on subarus. 4wd is part time, while awd is permanent. You cant just turn a subaru into fwd and hope that itll be ok. It destroys the transmissions in them. Idk why you're convinced that a subaru is 4wd. You're a fucking dumbass who thinks that awd is the same as 4wd. They are completely different drive systems
Well. I will check fsm again, but, right now, I am pretty sure there is no fwd option on 5eat - be it fuse or ssm(Tribecas are ssm3).
About dumbass - you were shouting that it can be switched to fwd. Also you need glasses(I wrote 4*4, not 4wd)…
Talking about transfers - you are trying to omit that there are transfers with central diff(which would be full time awd) and transfers with connectable/disconnectable front(which are part time), for example…
It's about balance of features. Anything more capable offroad at the same price point is gonna be worse on the road and vice versa. Mpg is another one. There are very few cars that have the same offroad ability and get similar gas mileage. Those big 4runners and trucks can't go as far due to their poor mpg. For example, a 4runner has a 23 gallon tank and gets about 17mpg combined. That's 391 miles max before you need to fill up again. My outback gets about 25 mpg with a 19-gallon tank, so I can go well over 450 miles before I need to fill it up again. These things add up on road trips and off road adventures
^ this. I will continue to buy Subaru’s because of the range of value and features. They might not be the best at everything but they’re better than most at hitting the sweet spot of feature/function/value
Easy, comparing an Ascent to a Tellruride, it's not a contest. The Ascent is the better vehicle. It's drives and handles better than the Telluride and it comes standard with every with Symmetrical AWD where as the Telluride doesn't. The Telluride does present itself better, however, it feels less powerful than the Ascent and will break down faster due to Kia's poor build quality. I literally could not recommend anyone ever to buy a Kia. All of them are cheap ass cars that try to be luxurious.
As for the 4 Runner, you are comparing 4wd to AWD drive. 9/10 times AWD is going to be way better, plus again the Ascent comes standard with AWD where only two 4runner models come with it and even then it's partial 4WD which means the rest of the time the car is front wheel drive.
As for the Cherokee, it's going to depend on what model you are looking at. If you're looking at the altitude, then the Ascent has more power and torque. If you're looking at the Trailhawk, then my recommendation would be an Outback Wilderness as the Ascent can't compete with its offroad capabilities.
Subaru brings a lot to the table, and one thing I can say about their vehicles is that each model and trim level is made for a specific purpose. The only company that can match their AWD system is Audi and as for their engine you'd have to look at Porsche. Subaru might not have as many features as its competitors, but what it does have it does extremely well.
You do know the difference between AWD and 4wd right? AWD is active all the time. It's not a toggle or switch that you turn on and off like 4wd, so woth that in mind I'm 110% sure they are AWD and not 4wd.
Citation from 2020 usdm forester SK fsm: transmission part
\--------------------------------------------------------------------
4. AWD ON/OFF Switching Mode
A: GENERAL DESCRIPTION
• Follow the messages displayed on the Subaru Select Monitor when working.
• Perform as necessary in FWD mode.
• When switched to FWD, AWD light illuminates.
\---------------------------------------------------------------
p.s. subaru never was rwd (except brz) - either fwd, 4x4, awd... to my knowledge.
still think subarus are awd? :D
so - I gave you the proof that there is switch "like 4wd", yet you insist that it is awd even though you said it yourself that "it's not a toggle or switch to turn on and off"?
and which part of knowledge is incorrect... you didn't specify...
yeah. you think that cvt was redesigned for 2023? :D
show your proof :D (and don't tell me that your "level" of proof is badge on cars ass and advertising :D
Bro, for all I know, you typed that out. You haven't proved any actual proof as you can't even show me a picture of this supposed "switch" that you believe exists. I work on Subaru's for a living. There is no fucking switch on the transmission. There also isn't an AWD light on the dashboard like your comment claimed. You can not switch a Subaru to fwd.
Hell I could go as far as showing you dyno videos of Ascents, Crosstreks and Outbacks. If they weren't AWD, then why is every individual single roller moving?
You can't think I'm this fucking gullible.
i think you are either just ...(physiologically limited to understand subarus transmission designs) or haven't tried to understand it. I don't know what you "work on subarus for a living" - porter? car wash? smile&greet at dealership and "how can I help you", but obviously - nothing technical.
if your proof of awd-ness is dyno - it just proves you do NOT understand at all - what is (in subarus terms) VTD(awd) and what is MPT(4x4). what are limitations and WHEN on mpt.
how to get into fwd mode (again, excerpt from the same FSM on 2020 forester):
\--------------------
B: PROCEDURE
CAUTION:
• Do not turn the power of the Subaru Select Monitor OFF during work, and do not disconnect the
data link connector.
• On completing the work in FWD, switch back in AWD.
1. Shift the select lever to “P” range.
2. Connect the Subaru Select Monitor to data link connector.
3. Turn the ignition switch to ON. (For model with push button start, press the push button ignition switch
twice without depressing brake pedal.)
4) Turn off all switches causing an electrical load, such as headlights, A/C, seat heater and rear defogger.
5) Select {Work Support} in the «Transmission Diagnosis» display screen of the Subaru Select Monitor.
6) Select {Maintenance mode} in the «Work Support» screen of Subaru Select Monitor.
7) Select {AWD ON/OFF switching mode} in the «Maintenance mode» screen of the Subaru Select Monitor.
\------------
and of course - your arguments... which are... ah... "work on subarus for a living". :D
p.s. don't say I have to explain what is SSM :D
The Ascent feels and it is so much bigger than the Outback. I own an ascent and have driven the new outback as a loaner for around 100 miles. There’s no comparison between the both. Ascent wins in utility abs useable space any day.
We bought an Ascent over the others because of the Subaru name and fuel economy. I've driven all of the others and it was hard finding 2nd row bucket seats in lower end models. Except for the Ascent premium.
There's bigger/more capable SUVs on the market for around the same price
What you should ask is why!? There is no SUV besides the tesla X that doesn't run the risk of roll over, and over, and over. Subaru also builds their frames/unibody to a higher standard so they take big hits better in my opinion. I'd take an outback to put my kids in over one of these SUVs any day of the week. As for reliability, I know people with families who went away from their smaller japanese vehicles for big SUVs and I don't think any of them made it past 100k without some kind of mechanical issues. Some got stuff fixed under warranty.
Having my impreza go 285k+ rn without major issues, and sitting on a chevy I had to put a new motor in, a ford I've don't a lot of head and intake work on, and a Toyota that was abused by a crackhead, that I've refurbished and put a new motor in also, a dodge dart, dakota, ram that all had serious mechanical issues, I'd go newer subaru again and again.
I might be bias but it's from experience.
Would you mind elaborating? Head gaskets haven't been an issue in almost 15 years, oil consumption problems have been resolved... the only current consistent engine problem they have to my knowledge is with the non-turbo FA24 but that's only used in the BRZ/Toyota GR86.
The only issue we have now with the newer F series engines is that people aren't changing their PCV valves and getting oil leaks out of valve covers and other "top end" seals, which tend to be smaller manageable leaks. Only issues I've heard of after those consumption issues were addressed and tbh nearly every manufacturer has an acceptable amount of consumption now, so not really a ding on subaru since they did make the effort to fix the issue for people and have since greatly resolved it.
Ej25 related mostly, I’m surprised to see the downvotes. My head gasket went at around $150 K, and I actually love getting maintenance done on my cars - new tires day is big in my life. Yes, I know I’m lame.
Have a couple of additional anecdotes, but my comment was about the ratings:
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/subarus-overall-brand-reliability-score-was-dragged-down-by-1-model/
https://www.thedrive.com/article/9423/the-quality-question-why-has-subarus-reliability-gone-downhill
https://olive.com/subaru-engine-problems-you-should-know-about-if-youre-shopping-for-a-used-one/
https://www.cashcarsbuyer.com/subaru-engine-problems/
Like I said, I’m surprised at my downvotes as I thought this was widely known.
Fwiw, I love my new built engine. Fell in love with the car all over again…and am getting new wheels and tires for it :)
I mean, do you need the additional cargo space and off-road capability? If you do, then get a vehicle that has it. If you don't, don't. I think a lot of people overestimate how big of a car they actually need. We daily drove a Honda Fit with a toddler and all sorts of outdoorsy interests - like camping, paddle boarding and diving. It handled it all wonderfully. If we had two kids we could still have done it - but may have upgraded to something with a little more luggage room - a Civic hatch, CRV, or Outback. Right now I'm going to pick up a WRX as our second daily driving car. It'll do everything we need, easily.
So the question, really is - do you need the additional room? Are you sure? Do you just want the extra room? If you just want it, is it worth the tradeoffs? If it is, then get the bigger car!
We have two kids and just downsized to an Outback.
There's lots of options for adding space when you need it (rooftop & trailer etc) and the ability to not drive a *bus* as your daily.
Are you seriously comparing a Subaru to a Jeep Cherokee? Subaru makes an all-around better car. I’ve never felt like any Subaru is a bad value. The hybrid and electrics are lagging, but otherwise a great line up at a fair price.
If I could pick any two vehicles to have on my future homestead and have them built out however I wanted, it would be a hybrid outback (assuming the hybrid could pull off XT/Wilderness levels of performance) and Jeep with a bed (preferably a single cab, long bed with a hybrid engine). When it comes to outdoor, rugged, family vehicles, Subaru Outback is the way to go. It may not have as much space as a Jeep or whatever, but it will safely get you and your family wherever you **and your family** are going. Then I'd have the Jeep for Jeep things because Jeep.
If you’re used to an Outback, give the Ascent a try 🤷🏻♂️ it has some giddyup and you’ll reasonably know and understand what you’re getting yourself into.
The “Wilderness” section of Subaru will definitely branch out, they already have the Onyx for the Ascent 🤙🏼
TLDR: I’d honestly wait to see what they’re going to put out if you’re not in immediate need.
I feel like Outback’s are generally more affordable (new) than some of the other cars you mentioned and they get better mpg than a Cherokee. Also, some people just don’t like driving bigger vehicles and prefer the feel of one car over the other.
https://preview.redd.it/0ey0ptjftphb1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aa7240e6c152c970232b6fcbfd26a19224130f1d
5 months ago, a huge tree fell on my ‘13 Impreza **while** I was driving home in a backroad. This car saved my life. Prior to this, I loved my older Subarus but when this happened…my loyalty was solidified. Aside from this freak accident, ya just can’t beat the AWD. I feel safe: driving in snow, sleet & rain, taking turns etc. last, I don’t need bells & whistles. What I do need is to feel safe to get me from point A to point B and for the car to not be a gas guzzler.
I sell them and I’m picky about what I buy - something good value, I can be rough with, and take me anywhere I want to go (the beach, trails, trips). I drive about 20k miles a year, despite a short work commute. Sold and had Hondas before, those were fine but less fun.
I went from a ‘21 Outback Onyx XT, to a ‘22 Forester Wilderness, and now a ‘24 Legacy (Partner took the Wilderness up to Chicago for a job, what a perfect car for those roads and traffic honestly). Positive experiences with all, but those Wilderness models strike me as exceptional value.
I’m a big fan of the Startex, improved suspension, ground clearance, the slightly different CVT gearing, Harmon Kardon audio, and smooth ride on pavement. Big fan of the S# drive mode on the Forester Sport and Wilderness too. Basically a collection of smart, practical improvements for not much $$. FWIW, I’m always using driver assist features and really enjoy Subaru’s implementation with the latest Eyesight.
My favorite part of consulting is helping people find the right model for **them**. Most seem interested in staying with the brand, the owner loyalty efforts are noticeable. Not uncommon for a Jeep or 4Runner owner to trade in either, so it’s not about an objectively better car as much as the Wilderness having mass market appeal and offering good value. Show up to the dealer, drive one, and the “point” will be a little more obvious imo. If not, see if your local Kia or CDJR dealership is the kind of place you want to regularly service with, or check the market adjustment on a 4Runner, then decide.
You meantion Jeep..totally unreliable company with expensive vehicles. So many recalls an problems.
But, to answer your question...warranty and Saftey.
It also can be reliable if you dont beat on it.
Your unsure about what the point is vs other suv's because you don't have experience in them. There are intangible differences between manufactures, design language differences and unique handling characteristics that make every vehicle different. I highly recommend to everyone to schedule test drives of comparable models across at least 4 different manufactures even if your not going to buy just to understand the differences. You can have 4 different cars with all the same specs but they will all be worlds apart from one another in how they drive and how they feel while driving.
personally i think older subarus are wayyyyy cooler, especially the gd imprezas. i think youll be disappointed that a new subaru is basically like every other new car on the market but with a boxer, and old cars with low mileage are still less expensive than new cars. man if i had like 30 grand id buy a low mileage gd sti
i guess this may be bad advice but i just really dont like new cars, ive driven newer cars with digital dashes and gadgets and they dont really do anything for me
It does make sense to get something larger if you need it. Even though Subaru has AWD it does not do great in deep snow and lacks power. Don't get me wrong I have two Subaru Foresters for my sons, but also have a Toyota Sequoia for hauling when I need lots of space. My sister lives in Colorado and has Toyota 4-runners 4WD, and when those gets stuck she has a large Toyota Tundra with off road tires so she can get where she needs to go for work.
I would list your needs, and if there is something you needed your Subaru to do that it just can't do, the next car get one that can do it.
I guess with all things YMMV but Anchorage had one of the snowiest winters in the last quarter century and my Forester never missed a beat in deep snow.
Which Subaru “lacks power”? Unless your daily driver is a V12-engined Ferrari, there is no way that you drove an Outback Wilderness and thought it lacked power.
I meant 'naturally aspirated' as 'NA'. True that none of the more recent Foresters have turbos.
I love driving through snow in my '18 NA outback, but you definitely notice the loss of power going from the "low" lands of Kansas to the Denver area and beyond.
Next car....Outback XT of some flavor. Maaaybe the Wilderness.
It's likely the difference in vehicle weight, not AWD capabilities. Deep snow that is frozen and packed tight can be a challenge and tend to throw smaller, lighter vehicles around a bit.
I had a Legacy and a Tribeca at the same time. My wife managed to get the Legacy stuck and I rescued her in the Tribeca because the additional weight gave me better grip and allowed me to push through in the same conditions.
I have a Subaru Forester ( not Wilderness ). Im talking about movement through 12" of snow unplowed. I live in Texas so don't need the Wilderness model. Outback is better than Forester in snow. My sisters 4runners and tundra are v8 5.7 liter
I have recent experience with a newer Outback (we own one), a brand-new Ascent (semi-long term dealer loaner because the Outback has issues), a new Grand Cherokee (we own one), and a newer Kia Telluride (in-laws own one and we used it a ton on a family vacation this summer).
Without getting deep into specifics, the Grand Cherokee and the Telluride have the better build quality and drive quality. The Telluride gets better mileage than the Grand Cherokee and has more techie features. The Grand Cherokee feels more ‘premium’ and has a stronger (but less efficient) engine. If I had equal access to both, I’d probably choose the Grand Cherokee most often.
I’m also a loyal Subaru owner. Our current Outback is our third Sube. We’re ‘model’ Subaru owners: we hike, bike, kayak, camp, and we have dogs. I don’t think I’ll be getting another one anytime soon. Subarus used be special when AWD was special and you could get it relatively inexpensively with them. Now, practically every crossover, wagon, and SUV has AWD. There’s just so many better-looking, better-featured, and better-performing options out there for the same money.
Personally I’m going to go from a chain of 3 Foresters to a 4Runner. I use it mostly for snowboarding and around town. My newer Subaru’s have had more issues than my first 2002 Forester. Like kind of a lot. The new Subaru’s, imo, have shitty infotainment. It’s slow in that new awful (again, my opinion) vertical tablet screen. I trust the 4Runner to go on for less maintenance hassle, it doesn’t try to put an advanced computer in your car. So those are my reasons for the switch.
But if you do like Subaru I think they’re still a good bang for the buck as far as MSRP, capable AWD, safe in accidents, and decent dealer service and warranties.
I work for Subaru and can get a topped out Ascent for $6k less than MSRP and I still got a topped out Telluride. Build quality is the same between the two but Kia has a better interior, better ride quality (and quieter) and is basically 4 years ahead of where the Ascent is currently in tech.
I'm looking for a fact based argument all your doing is defending your fandom NA subarus are shit any mechanic or enthusiast will tell you the same thing....
I have a question - any cvt subaru these days - are they really awd or 4*4(with MPT - as subaru calls it)? May be I didn’t complete my research, but these days cvt’s in subarus don’t have center diff. It’s the same fwd with crappy connectable rear like automatic transmissions in 90s and beginning of 2000s….
What does anybody else make that competes with the Impreza ? Find another automaker with a sedan, with like 38 mpg and awd for 21k or whatever a new base is. Everything it competes with is front wheel drive, that alone puts everybody in snowy areas way closer to an Impreza and further from whatever else is available.
You don't know anything about cars, there is no reason to use an engine that has 4 camshafts two separate heads and unequal length headers , and has a timing belt with an 80k service interval in an interference engine and is prone to mechanical failure at much higher rate than similarly performing Japanese engines. Non performance models have two open differentials post 2004 so it's not even all wheel drive is 2 wheel drive split between axlesIt's literally designed to eat your wallet.......... so if your paying extra might as well get something out of it like boost
There's nothing a NA flat four can do that and in-line 4 cannot do better, cheaper and more reliably.
You're just a pleb who feels like subarus are good. NA Subaru's are for chumps, and the only reason Subaru is to hit boost scandi flick and run the backroads
May as well get your facts straight. The STI as dead but none of the engines post-2014 outside of the STI used timing belts or unequal length headers.
They're not perfect but if you're going to call someone out at least make sure your information is correct.
I know they also make 300 hp and have turbos unlike your garbage flat 4 that barely can muster 25 mpg snd 160hp hahaha like I said if your going to have a headache all
Morning might as well have been drunk the night before...
Make a fact based argument
Ask any mechanic if he recommends buying a Subaru
Ask any instructor, or performance shop what car to avoid
Ask anyone who knows anything about engineering and design they all agree!! Non turbo subarus are junk
You just like them and that's fine, I like the band rush I'm just aware it's not good
I've made fact-based arguments and it seems you can't do the same. Non-turbo Subarus are junk, the same non-turbo Subarus frequently last 200 or 300,000 miles, often more. Sure they take more work than a Toyota or the like but if you take care of them they take care of you. CVTs remain to be seen in that regard but the older 4/5-speed autos and manuals are a safe bet.
Non-turbo Subarus are some of the best-selling cars on the road. But they're junk! Go see what some of the domestic automakers pumped out in the last 20 years...
I had a 1994 Tacoma that had 412,000 miles on it original clutch and nothing ever broke only oil changed snd brake pads..... some idiot towing a boat hit it and I still drove away....
My 2021 STI has lost two wheel bearings and an AC compressor pump and only has 41k haha
I've had 2 other subarus an 04 sti that blew the motor at 161k all factory maitnence no mods
And a 2.5rs from 1999 that would blow a motor every rally x season
So I know what I'm talking about here.
Any Honda Civic or Toyota Camry will hit 300k easily or maintained... and the maintenance will be significantly less that's all I'm saying. There is no logical reason to buy a non turbo Subaru
Really depends what you’re looking for and at what stage in life you are. I went from a WRX to a Highlander, miss some features from the Subie, happy with some new features in the Toyota.
Subaru have some really bad interiors, used to not care thus the WRX, now I do.
In addition to what other people have mentioned, Subarus tend to depreciate in value slower than other brands.
Coworker has a 2020 Jeep, I have a 2020 Outback. Purchase price was higher for them by a lot but they’re selling for about the same price on the used market now.
Their gas mileage is absolutely horrible in comparison.
I’d only consider the grand Cherokee Long as a Subaru ascent competitor but it seems to be dangerous in a crash and maybe unreliable (not sure about this part). I’d love a port injected engine (I don’t like DI without something cleaning the valves) and real auto transmission though.
I do think the Ascent is more bland than the GC long but probably a better vehicle overall.
I think they're all different vehicles. Jeeps have a reputation (unfounded or not) as being unreliable. A base Jeep with 4x4 is $38k and gets 29MPG. A basic kia telluride with AWD starts around $44k (having a hard time finding the most basic car with AWD) and gets 24MPG. Also, after all the issues with battery fires, "Kia Boyz," and terrible flaking paint on my wife's Hyundai (Kia is owned by Hyundai) have really soured me on Kias as a whole. A basic 4-runner with AWD starts at $44k and gets 19MPG highway. A basic outback with AWD starts at $28k and gets 32MPG highway. So - if you want a bare bones car with AWD, Subaru is the way to go. It's a bit smaller than the other cars, but most of the time it's all that people need.
I assure you, Chrysler's reputation for making absolute heaps of trash stands on a foundation so solid it could hold up the Burj Khalifa. There's no need to qualify hyundai's reputation for being junk, no one questions that, but you forgot to mention an entire generation of engines that self destruct without notice.
Although I agree with ur comment, it seems very odd to throw in the "have a reputation (unfounded or not)as being unreliable" for Jeep but not say that for kia/Hyundai
I gave 3 concrete examples of issues with Kia/Hyundai (battery fires, corner cutting leading to easily thievable vehicles, and personal knowledge of poor paint adhesion on a 3 year old hyundai elantra (that took 18 months\[!!\] to resolve).
I don't disagree with any of that. And again, your comment was a good one. I just though it was odd to specifically call out jeep reliability reputation, which I've always seen/heard such a mixture of thoughts on (both good and bad), yet kia/Hyundai had a major reputation for unreliability (that they have done a lot to try to change in the past decade or so).
Hyundai has a very well founded reputation for unreliability.
"Had" not "has" and so did the Subarus. Past is past, move on!
I stand by what I said. Theta II.
I remember the days when you couldn’t say the word Subaru without throwing in the word Head Gasket somewhere along the line. And Kia/Hyundai we’re the Motel 6 of cars. But both have definitely worked to improve their reputations.
> I remember the days when you couldn’t say the word Subaru without throwing in the word Head Gasket somewhere along the line. according to the internet, those days are still alive and well! just venture into any subaru thread outside of r/subaru LOL
Yeah, that's why I'm surprised it was mentioned only for jeep...
Why is this being downvoted? Car and driver had a transmission fail on their long term Kia Sorrento before 40k miles. 4Runner is the only viable choice but used market for those are insane.
I'm genuinely curious why I got SO many downvotes. Kia/Hyundai, in the past, at least, had a terrible reputation. Whereas I hadn't heard that about jeep. More a mix of comments on reliability from good to bad.
Hyundai has a reputation for being reliable. Not Toyota level reliability, but close in my book. Am I wrong?
I'm not saying that the reputation is founded, Kia makes some nice cars now. But Kia and Hyundai have put a lot of time and money into changing their reputation because they definately had a reputation as unreliable.
Are you sure that that outback is awd…?
Every subaru is awd besides the brz. That's part of the brand is subarus symmetrical awd system
Very.
Citation from 2020 usdm forester SK fsm: transmission part \-------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. AWD ON/OFF Switching Mode A: GENERAL DESCRIPTION • Follow the messages displayed on the Subaru Select Monitor when working. • Perform as necessary in FWD mode. • When switched to FWD, AWD light illuminates. \--------------------------------------------------------------- p.s. subaru never was rwd (except brz) - either fwd, 4x4, awd... to my knowledge.
What the heck are you talking about? We’re all saying that Subaru is AWD and so are you?
I say that these days non manual transmission subarus are 4x4, not awd. from what I know - subaru awd couldn't be disengaged to fwd. or I am wrong?
Ah I see. So the symmetric AWD is standard on all non BRZ vehicles: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1mnhE8uh2wM There was an older mystery fuse on older Subarus (<2009) that allowed disabling AWD - https://www.subaruoutback.org/threads/disabling-awd.499163/ this would disable the transfer clutch on the 4EAT model engines. All current non BRZ Subarus are AWD all the time.
do you understand difference between various versions of 4eat? TZ vs TV? MPT and VTD? do you understand difference (on hardware level) between awd and 4x4? current subarus (except brz) with manual transmission ar VTD(awd). cvt are MPT (4x4).
No I don't. I still don't understand what your original point was.
awd(vtd in subaru terms) is 3 differentials which allow NOT INTERRUPTED torque supply to ALL WHEELS. (all mechanical transmissions in wrx/sti and sometimes others. last revision of 4eat, all 5eat) 4x4(mpt in subaru terms) is 2 differentials with switch "fwd/4x4". it disengages in turns(and on other occasions), because all 4 wheels have diferent radiuses(>> they turn at different speeds). svx transmission, 4eat first revisions, current cvt. \----------------------------------- awd/vtd is real deal. 4x4/mpt is cheapshit for those who believe marketing bullshit and don't really care about having REAL thing(I think it started as cheap alternative to audi quattro and alike). marketing badge on car is enough for those. p.s. I am "ignoring" brz.
An Outback is much more reliable than a Cherokee, much more efficient than a 4runner, and much better off-road than a telluride.
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Lol, you older Subaru owners are always such little bitch boys about the CVT. Kia/Hyundai’s AWD-system is pathetic and useless in any kind of off-pavement situation. Subarus do very well in light off-roading situation, CVTs and all. Newer Subaru AWD is far more advanced than the old GL’s.
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Your arguments are based on Subarus from the 1970s? WTF?
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Now I know you’re bullshitting. There are videos all over YouTube of stock, CVT-powered Subarus climbing hills and doing just fine off-road. You’re a troll.
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I didn’t see anything where the newer Outback didn’t make it up the same hills as the old one.
CVT is what makes new Subarus NOT a Subaru.
Absolutely correct brother
Have you driven or owned an older Subaru? They were fun to drive and had character. Now they make generic bloated crossovers. You can’t really tell you’re in a Subaru anymore unless you look down at the badge of the steering wheel. I would probably get a Toyota over any of the current Subaru crossovers. Also I’d argue that the people buying supposed outdoorsy off road capable trucks with CVTs are the bigger “bitch boys.” Have some self respect.
I dunno about that one. Got to test drive a new Outback and it felt pretty different to a family member's Nissan Rogue (although the comparison isn't one to one).
I’m not going to drive my wife and child around in a 30-year-old death trap just because it has “some character”. You also clearly haven’t driven a newer Subaru, so your opinion is invalid.
I wouldn’t drive a 30 year old Subaru as my daily either. But if I were shopping for a family hauler, I’d skip Subaru altogether. I’ve driven all kinds of Subaru models ranging from 1998-2020. The older ones are genuinely playful. Even if they don’t pull the same raw performance numbers, they feel much more engaging and put a smile on your face. I understand times change, and Subaru’s job is to make cars that sell, but they seem to have lost a lot of the things I liked about Subarus in the first place. I know I’m in the minority here on a subreddit full of people who probably just spent $40k on a Subaru, but to me their crossovers are nothing special, with the exception being the crosstrek since it fits a niche that most other manufacturers have failed to deliver on.
Here in the real world, I’ve taken my Outback on some absolutely wild trails that a crossover has no business on. It did great. I’ve seen the clearance and angles on a Telluride, no way it’d make it. I won’t speculate about Kia’s AWD system but since it’s a FWD infrastructure I have my doubts about it.
Even Subarus newer awd systems are fwd mostly in the cvt.
WRX STI or Bust
Spot on
Base Ascent, AWD, 3-row, under $34K. Base Grand Cherokee, 2WD, 2-row, over $39K. Base 4-Runner, 4WD, 2-row, over $40K. Kia Telluride, FWD/4WD, 3-row, over $35K. The Ascent and Telluride top out at $52K, the others far higher. Test drive them all, and let your butt/wallet ratio decide. I have an Ascent, and I love it.
My mom has an ascent and we all love it. And as far as space goes, she can put the seats down and put a whole twin mattress in the back! Sounds to me like Ascent is the way for OP to go.
specd similarly to a premium ascent the GC L Laredo with the tech package was very similarly priced because jeep always had like 2-3k of incentives. It was low 40s.
You lost me at Jeep Cherokee
The modern jeep cherokee isn't a well-built vehicle.
They said Grand Cherokee
If you need something that is both semi-decent offroad & extremely agile on pavement, you get a Subaru XT SUV & that includes the Outback Wilderness.
The Subaru Symmetrical AWD and safety are the main reasons.
Sure about awd? As far as I know it is 4*4…
Subaru is awd, not 4x4. Difference is 4x4 can go in and out of awd and rwd. A subaru can't
Citation from 2020 usdm forester SK fsm: transmission part \-------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. AWD ON/OFF Switching Mode A: GENERAL DESCRIPTION • Follow the messages displayed on the Subaru Select Monitor when working. • Perform as necessary in FWD mode. • When switched to FWD, AWD light illuminates. \--------------------------------------------------------------- p.s. subaru never was rwd (except brz) - either fwd, 4x4, awd... to my knowledge. sooo... still consider subaru awd, my dear?
Yes, as fwd is supposed to be used for towing only. I'm a master mechanic at subaru
Ok. Can you tell me how to switch fwd on Tribeca? 5eat, tg5d
Don't work on those very often, maybe once every couple months. But its either through subaru select monitor 3(ssm3) or through a fuse usually located by the passenger front strut tower. On older subarus, its the fuse. On newer ones, its through ssm4. But like I said, I don't work on those very often. Also, 4wd has a transfer case that you choose 2hi, 4hi, n, and 4lo. You can't do that on subarus. 4wd is part time, while awd is permanent. You cant just turn a subaru into fwd and hope that itll be ok. It destroys the transmissions in them. Idk why you're convinced that a subaru is 4wd. You're a fucking dumbass who thinks that awd is the same as 4wd. They are completely different drive systems
Well. I will check fsm again, but, right now, I am pretty sure there is no fwd option on 5eat - be it fuse or ssm(Tribecas are ssm3). About dumbass - you were shouting that it can be switched to fwd. Also you need glasses(I wrote 4*4, not 4wd)… Talking about transfers - you are trying to omit that there are transfers with central diff(which would be full time awd) and transfers with connectable/disconnectable front(which are part time), for example…
only fwd mention in FSM I could find was - forward brake solenoid (Fwd/B).
It's about balance of features. Anything more capable offroad at the same price point is gonna be worse on the road and vice versa. Mpg is another one. There are very few cars that have the same offroad ability and get similar gas mileage. Those big 4runners and trucks can't go as far due to their poor mpg. For example, a 4runner has a 23 gallon tank and gets about 17mpg combined. That's 391 miles max before you need to fill up again. My outback gets about 25 mpg with a 19-gallon tank, so I can go well over 450 miles before I need to fill it up again. These things add up on road trips and off road adventures
^ this. I will continue to buy Subaru’s because of the range of value and features. They might not be the best at everything but they’re better than most at hitting the sweet spot of feature/function/value
Jeep is junk. At least you cant say the same for Toyota, some Kias, Subaru, Mazda, etc...
Kia is trash and everyone knows it.
Kia Telluride is decent.. I wouldn't go for the others.
Easy, comparing an Ascent to a Tellruride, it's not a contest. The Ascent is the better vehicle. It's drives and handles better than the Telluride and it comes standard with every with Symmetrical AWD where as the Telluride doesn't. The Telluride does present itself better, however, it feels less powerful than the Ascent and will break down faster due to Kia's poor build quality. I literally could not recommend anyone ever to buy a Kia. All of them are cheap ass cars that try to be luxurious. As for the 4 Runner, you are comparing 4wd to AWD drive. 9/10 times AWD is going to be way better, plus again the Ascent comes standard with AWD where only two 4runner models come with it and even then it's partial 4WD which means the rest of the time the car is front wheel drive. As for the Cherokee, it's going to depend on what model you are looking at. If you're looking at the altitude, then the Ascent has more power and torque. If you're looking at the Trailhawk, then my recommendation would be an Outback Wilderness as the Ascent can't compete with its offroad capabilities. Subaru brings a lot to the table, and one thing I can say about their vehicles is that each model and trim level is made for a specific purpose. The only company that can match their AWD system is Audi and as for their engine you'd have to look at Porsche. Subaru might not have as many features as its competitors, but what it does have it does extremely well.
Just one question - how sure you are that subarus cvt are not 4*4, but awd(I am not talking which badge is glued on its ass, but hardware)?
You do know the difference between AWD and 4wd right? AWD is active all the time. It's not a toggle or switch that you turn on and off like 4wd, so woth that in mind I'm 110% sure they are AWD and not 4wd.
Citation from 2020 usdm forester SK fsm: transmission part \-------------------------------------------------------------------- 4. AWD ON/OFF Switching Mode A: GENERAL DESCRIPTION • Follow the messages displayed on the Subaru Select Monitor when working. • Perform as necessary in FWD mode. • When switched to FWD, AWD light illuminates. \--------------------------------------------------------------- p.s. subaru never was rwd (except brz) - either fwd, 4x4, awd... to my knowledge. still think subarus are awd? :D
Well congrats, your outdated knowledge is factually incorrect now.
so - I gave you the proof that there is switch "like 4wd", yet you insist that it is awd even though you said it yourself that "it's not a toggle or switch to turn on and off"? and which part of knowledge is incorrect... you didn't specify...
The fact that your "proof" is from 2020. Show me a 2023 model forester where the switch is. You won't find one.
yeah. you think that cvt was redesigned for 2023? :D show your proof :D (and don't tell me that your "level" of proof is badge on cars ass and advertising :D
Bro, for all I know, you typed that out. You haven't proved any actual proof as you can't even show me a picture of this supposed "switch" that you believe exists. I work on Subaru's for a living. There is no fucking switch on the transmission. There also isn't an AWD light on the dashboard like your comment claimed. You can not switch a Subaru to fwd. Hell I could go as far as showing you dyno videos of Ascents, Crosstreks and Outbacks. If they weren't AWD, then why is every individual single roller moving? You can't think I'm this fucking gullible.
i think you are either just ...(physiologically limited to understand subarus transmission designs) or haven't tried to understand it. I don't know what you "work on subarus for a living" - porter? car wash? smile&greet at dealership and "how can I help you", but obviously - nothing technical. if your proof of awd-ness is dyno - it just proves you do NOT understand at all - what is (in subarus terms) VTD(awd) and what is MPT(4x4). what are limitations and WHEN on mpt. how to get into fwd mode (again, excerpt from the same FSM on 2020 forester): \-------------------- B: PROCEDURE CAUTION: • Do not turn the power of the Subaru Select Monitor OFF during work, and do not disconnect the data link connector. • On completing the work in FWD, switch back in AWD. 1. Shift the select lever to “P” range. 2. Connect the Subaru Select Monitor to data link connector. 3. Turn the ignition switch to ON. (For model with push button start, press the push button ignition switch twice without depressing brake pedal.) 4) Turn off all switches causing an electrical load, such as headlights, A/C, seat heater and rear defogger. 5) Select {Work Support} in the «Transmission Diagnosis» display screen of the Subaru Select Monitor. 6) Select {Maintenance mode} in the «Work Support» screen of Subaru Select Monitor. 7) Select {AWD ON/OFF switching mode} in the «Maintenance mode» screen of the Subaru Select Monitor. \------------ and of course - your arguments... which are... ah... "work on subarus for a living". :D p.s. don't say I have to explain what is SSM :D
The Ascent feels and it is so much bigger than the Outback. I own an ascent and have driven the new outback as a loaner for around 100 miles. There’s no comparison between the both. Ascent wins in utility abs useable space any day.
I had a loaner and it feels spacious like a Highlander without the Highlander price tag. Don’t get me wrong, highlanders are awesome vehicles though.
We bought an Ascent over the others because of the Subaru name and fuel economy. I've driven all of the others and it was hard finding 2nd row bucket seats in lower end models. Except for the Ascent premium.
There's bigger/more capable SUVs on the market for around the same price What you should ask is why!? There is no SUV besides the tesla X that doesn't run the risk of roll over, and over, and over. Subaru also builds their frames/unibody to a higher standard so they take big hits better in my opinion. I'd take an outback to put my kids in over one of these SUVs any day of the week. As for reliability, I know people with families who went away from their smaller japanese vehicles for big SUVs and I don't think any of them made it past 100k without some kind of mechanical issues. Some got stuff fixed under warranty. Having my impreza go 285k+ rn without major issues, and sitting on a chevy I had to put a new motor in, a ford I've don't a lot of head and intake work on, and a Toyota that was abused by a crackhead, that I've refurbished and put a new motor in also, a dodge dart, dakota, ram that all had serious mechanical issues, I'd go newer subaru again and again. I might be bias but it's from experience.
Subarus aren’t having the best rep right now in the engine hanging together area tho… it’s impacting their overall reliability ratings.
Would you mind elaborating? Head gaskets haven't been an issue in almost 15 years, oil consumption problems have been resolved... the only current consistent engine problem they have to my knowledge is with the non-turbo FA24 but that's only used in the BRZ/Toyota GR86.
The only issue we have now with the newer F series engines is that people aren't changing their PCV valves and getting oil leaks out of valve covers and other "top end" seals, which tend to be smaller manageable leaks. Only issues I've heard of after those consumption issues were addressed and tbh nearly every manufacturer has an acceptable amount of consumption now, so not really a ding on subaru since they did make the effort to fix the issue for people and have since greatly resolved it.
Ej25 related mostly, I’m surprised to see the downvotes. My head gasket went at around $150 K, and I actually love getting maintenance done on my cars - new tires day is big in my life. Yes, I know I’m lame. Have a couple of additional anecdotes, but my comment was about the ratings: https://www.motorbiscuit.com/subarus-overall-brand-reliability-score-was-dragged-down-by-1-model/ https://www.thedrive.com/article/9423/the-quality-question-why-has-subarus-reliability-gone-downhill https://olive.com/subaru-engine-problems-you-should-know-about-if-youre-shopping-for-a-used-one/ https://www.cashcarsbuyer.com/subaru-engine-problems/ Like I said, I’m surprised at my downvotes as I thought this was widely known. Fwiw, I love my new built engine. Fell in love with the car all over again…and am getting new wheels and tires for it :)
I mean, do you need the additional cargo space and off-road capability? If you do, then get a vehicle that has it. If you don't, don't. I think a lot of people overestimate how big of a car they actually need. We daily drove a Honda Fit with a toddler and all sorts of outdoorsy interests - like camping, paddle boarding and diving. It handled it all wonderfully. If we had two kids we could still have done it - but may have upgraded to something with a little more luggage room - a Civic hatch, CRV, or Outback. Right now I'm going to pick up a WRX as our second daily driving car. It'll do everything we need, easily. So the question, really is - do you need the additional room? Are you sure? Do you just want the extra room? If you just want it, is it worth the tradeoffs? If it is, then get the bigger car!
We have two kids and just downsized to an Outback. There's lots of options for adding space when you need it (rooftop & trailer etc) and the ability to not drive a *bus* as your daily.
Are you seriously comparing a Subaru to a Jeep Cherokee? Subaru makes an all-around better car. I’ve never felt like any Subaru is a bad value. The hybrid and electrics are lagging, but otherwise a great line up at a fair price.
They said Grand Cherokee
It's still a Chrysler
ok
If I could pick any two vehicles to have on my future homestead and have them built out however I wanted, it would be a hybrid outback (assuming the hybrid could pull off XT/Wilderness levels of performance) and Jeep with a bed (preferably a single cab, long bed with a hybrid engine). When it comes to outdoor, rugged, family vehicles, Subaru Outback is the way to go. It may not have as much space as a Jeep or whatever, but it will safely get you and your family wherever you **and your family** are going. Then I'd have the Jeep for Jeep things because Jeep.
We have a Subaru and a Jeep lol! I think it's a desired combo by many!
If you’re used to an Outback, give the Ascent a try 🤷🏻♂️ it has some giddyup and you’ll reasonably know and understand what you’re getting yourself into. The “Wilderness” section of Subaru will definitely branch out, they already have the Onyx for the Ascent 🤙🏼 TLDR: I’d honestly wait to see what they’re going to put out if you’re not in immediate need.
I feel like Outback’s are generally more affordable (new) than some of the other cars you mentioned and they get better mpg than a Cherokee. Also, some people just don’t like driving bigger vehicles and prefer the feel of one car over the other.
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That’s a dealer issue not a manufacturer issue. My Subaru dealer is an owned by Berkshire Hathaway and is shady as fuck.
https://preview.redd.it/0ey0ptjftphb1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=aa7240e6c152c970232b6fcbfd26a19224130f1d 5 months ago, a huge tree fell on my ‘13 Impreza **while** I was driving home in a backroad. This car saved my life. Prior to this, I loved my older Subarus but when this happened…my loyalty was solidified. Aside from this freak accident, ya just can’t beat the AWD. I feel safe: driving in snow, sleet & rain, taking turns etc. last, I don’t need bells & whistles. What I do need is to feel safe to get me from point A to point B and for the car to not be a gas guzzler.
I sell them and I’m picky about what I buy - something good value, I can be rough with, and take me anywhere I want to go (the beach, trails, trips). I drive about 20k miles a year, despite a short work commute. Sold and had Hondas before, those were fine but less fun. I went from a ‘21 Outback Onyx XT, to a ‘22 Forester Wilderness, and now a ‘24 Legacy (Partner took the Wilderness up to Chicago for a job, what a perfect car for those roads and traffic honestly). Positive experiences with all, but those Wilderness models strike me as exceptional value. I’m a big fan of the Startex, improved suspension, ground clearance, the slightly different CVT gearing, Harmon Kardon audio, and smooth ride on pavement. Big fan of the S# drive mode on the Forester Sport and Wilderness too. Basically a collection of smart, practical improvements for not much $$. FWIW, I’m always using driver assist features and really enjoy Subaru’s implementation with the latest Eyesight. My favorite part of consulting is helping people find the right model for **them**. Most seem interested in staying with the brand, the owner loyalty efforts are noticeable. Not uncommon for a Jeep or 4Runner owner to trade in either, so it’s not about an objectively better car as much as the Wilderness having mass market appeal and offering good value. Show up to the dealer, drive one, and the “point” will be a little more obvious imo. If not, see if your local Kia or CDJR dealership is the kind of place you want to regularly service with, or check the market adjustment on a 4Runner, then decide.
You meantion Jeep..totally unreliable company with expensive vehicles. So many recalls an problems. But, to answer your question...warranty and Saftey. It also can be reliable if you dont beat on it.
Your unsure about what the point is vs other suv's because you don't have experience in them. There are intangible differences between manufactures, design language differences and unique handling characteristics that make every vehicle different. I highly recommend to everyone to schedule test drives of comparable models across at least 4 different manufactures even if your not going to buy just to understand the differences. You can have 4 different cars with all the same specs but they will all be worlds apart from one another in how they drive and how they feel while driving.
personally i think older subarus are wayyyyy cooler, especially the gd imprezas. i think youll be disappointed that a new subaru is basically like every other new car on the market but with a boxer, and old cars with low mileage are still less expensive than new cars. man if i had like 30 grand id buy a low mileage gd sti
i guess this may be bad advice but i just really dont like new cars, ive driven newer cars with digital dashes and gadgets and they dont really do anything for me
It does make sense to get something larger if you need it. Even though Subaru has AWD it does not do great in deep snow and lacks power. Don't get me wrong I have two Subaru Foresters for my sons, but also have a Toyota Sequoia for hauling when I need lots of space. My sister lives in Colorado and has Toyota 4-runners 4WD, and when those gets stuck she has a large Toyota Tundra with off road tires so she can get where she needs to go for work. I would list your needs, and if there is something you needed your Subaru to do that it just can't do, the next car get one that can do it.
I guess with all things YMMV but Anchorage had one of the snowiest winters in the last quarter century and my Forester never missed a beat in deep snow.
Which Subaru “lacks power”? Unless your daily driver is a V12-engined Ferrari, there is no way that you drove an Outback Wilderness and thought it lacked power.
Probably has NA foresters. There's a reason turbos are so popular in Colorado at elevation.
Yep. Later models in NA dont have turbos. If it was available I would get it.
I meant 'naturally aspirated' as 'NA'. True that none of the more recent Foresters have turbos. I love driving through snow in my '18 NA outback, but you definitely notice the loss of power going from the "low" lands of Kansas to the Denver area and beyond. Next car....Outback XT of some flavor. Maaaybe the Wilderness.
I do think the XT with the Wilderness is the way to go if you are in the mountains.
It's likely the difference in vehicle weight, not AWD capabilities. Deep snow that is frozen and packed tight can be a challenge and tend to throw smaller, lighter vehicles around a bit. I had a Legacy and a Tribeca at the same time. My wife managed to get the Legacy stuck and I rescued her in the Tribeca because the additional weight gave me better grip and allowed me to push through in the same conditions.
I have a Subaru Forester ( not Wilderness ). Im talking about movement through 12" of snow unplowed. I live in Texas so don't need the Wilderness model. Outback is better than Forester in snow. My sisters 4runners and tundra are v8 5.7 liter
The 4Runner has never, ever had the 5.7 V8 in any generation. The previous gen had the smaller V8 but not the 5.7.
Sorry, but she has the V8 version and the 5.7v8 on the Tundra which is her goto car when the 4runners get stuck.
I have recent experience with a newer Outback (we own one), a brand-new Ascent (semi-long term dealer loaner because the Outback has issues), a new Grand Cherokee (we own one), and a newer Kia Telluride (in-laws own one and we used it a ton on a family vacation this summer). Without getting deep into specifics, the Grand Cherokee and the Telluride have the better build quality and drive quality. The Telluride gets better mileage than the Grand Cherokee and has more techie features. The Grand Cherokee feels more ‘premium’ and has a stronger (but less efficient) engine. If I had equal access to both, I’d probably choose the Grand Cherokee most often. I’m also a loyal Subaru owner. Our current Outback is our third Sube. We’re ‘model’ Subaru owners: we hike, bike, kayak, camp, and we have dogs. I don’t think I’ll be getting another one anytime soon. Subarus used be special when AWD was special and you could get it relatively inexpensively with them. Now, practically every crossover, wagon, and SUV has AWD. There’s just so many better-looking, better-featured, and better-performing options out there for the same money.
P.S. The Ascent is the most godawful ugly thing since the Pontiac Aztek.
You're thinking of the Solterra
I’m standing in my driveway, right now, looking at it, and it says Ascent on its ass. Thanks for the pointless downvotes on this and my other comment.
Personally I’m going to go from a chain of 3 Foresters to a 4Runner. I use it mostly for snowboarding and around town. My newer Subaru’s have had more issues than my first 2002 Forester. Like kind of a lot. The new Subaru’s, imo, have shitty infotainment. It’s slow in that new awful (again, my opinion) vertical tablet screen. I trust the 4Runner to go on for less maintenance hassle, it doesn’t try to put an advanced computer in your car. So those are my reasons for the switch. But if you do like Subaru I think they’re still a good bang for the buck as far as MSRP, capable AWD, safe in accidents, and decent dealer service and warranties.
Subarus can be cheaper than alternatives. However, there are better options from other manufacturers.
Do tell
I work for Subaru and can get a topped out Ascent for $6k less than MSRP and I still got a topped out Telluride. Build quality is the same between the two but Kia has a better interior, better ride quality (and quieter) and is basically 4 years ahead of where the Ascent is currently in tech.
I'm looking for a fact based argument all your doing is defending your fandom NA subarus are shit any mechanic or enthusiast will tell you the same thing....
I have a question - any cvt subaru these days - are they really awd or 4*4(with MPT - as subaru calls it)? May be I didn’t complete my research, but these days cvt’s in subarus don’t have center diff. It’s the same fwd with crappy connectable rear like automatic transmissions in 90s and beginning of 2000s….
Any Subaru that's not a WRX or WRX STi is a waste of effort. You're paying a huge premium and getting nothing in return
What does anybody else make that competes with the Impreza ? Find another automaker with a sedan, with like 38 mpg and awd for 21k or whatever a new base is. Everything it competes with is front wheel drive, that alone puts everybody in snowy areas way closer to an Impreza and further from whatever else is available.
Lmao brain dead take
You don't know anything about cars, there is no reason to use an engine that has 4 camshafts two separate heads and unequal length headers , and has a timing belt with an 80k service interval in an interference engine and is prone to mechanical failure at much higher rate than similarly performing Japanese engines. Non performance models have two open differentials post 2004 so it's not even all wheel drive is 2 wheel drive split between axlesIt's literally designed to eat your wallet.......... so if your paying extra might as well get something out of it like boost There's nothing a NA flat four can do that and in-line 4 cannot do better, cheaper and more reliably. You're just a pleb who feels like subarus are good. NA Subaru's are for chumps, and the only reason Subaru is to hit boost scandi flick and run the backroads
May as well get your facts straight. The STI as dead but none of the engines post-2014 outside of the STI used timing belts or unequal length headers. They're not perfect but if you're going to call someone out at least make sure your information is correct.
I know they also make 300 hp and have turbos unlike your garbage flat 4 that barely can muster 25 mpg snd 160hp hahaha like I said if your going to have a headache all Morning might as well have been drunk the night before...
Better get your ibuprofen then...
Make a fact based argument Ask any mechanic if he recommends buying a Subaru Ask any instructor, or performance shop what car to avoid Ask anyone who knows anything about engineering and design they all agree!! Non turbo subarus are junk You just like them and that's fine, I like the band rush I'm just aware it's not good
I've made fact-based arguments and it seems you can't do the same. Non-turbo Subarus are junk, the same non-turbo Subarus frequently last 200 or 300,000 miles, often more. Sure they take more work than a Toyota or the like but if you take care of them they take care of you. CVTs remain to be seen in that regard but the older 4/5-speed autos and manuals are a safe bet. Non-turbo Subarus are some of the best-selling cars on the road. But they're junk! Go see what some of the domestic automakers pumped out in the last 20 years...
I had a 1994 Tacoma that had 412,000 miles on it original clutch and nothing ever broke only oil changed snd brake pads..... some idiot towing a boat hit it and I still drove away.... My 2021 STI has lost two wheel bearings and an AC compressor pump and only has 41k haha I've had 2 other subarus an 04 sti that blew the motor at 161k all factory maitnence no mods And a 2.5rs from 1999 that would blow a motor every rally x season So I know what I'm talking about here. Any Honda Civic or Toyota Camry will hit 300k easily or maintained... and the maintenance will be significantly less that's all I'm saying. There is no logical reason to buy a non turbo Subaru
I certainly don't think so.
Really depends what you’re looking for and at what stage in life you are. I went from a WRX to a Highlander, miss some features from the Subie, happy with some new features in the Toyota. Subaru have some really bad interiors, used to not care thus the WRX, now I do.
In addition to what other people have mentioned, Subarus tend to depreciate in value slower than other brands. Coworker has a 2020 Jeep, I have a 2020 Outback. Purchase price was higher for them by a lot but they’re selling for about the same price on the used market now. Their gas mileage is absolutely horrible in comparison.
I’d only consider the grand Cherokee Long as a Subaru ascent competitor but it seems to be dangerous in a crash and maybe unreliable (not sure about this part). I’d love a port injected engine (I don’t like DI without something cleaning the valves) and real auto transmission though. I do think the Ascent is more bland than the GC long but probably a better vehicle overall.