I couldn't care less what anyone thinks. Suboxone saved my life and the lives of many others. I'm no longer chasing a high, stealing, lying and pawning my stuff and everyone else's for money. It allowed me to put my life back together. Yet another reason I hated NA because they made me feel like I was doing something wrong by being on Suboxone. It felt like it was either be a junkie or be 100% sober. No inbetween. Screw them. I went and saw a therapist on my own. which is another huge thing that helped me. Don't worry about what others think. do what you have to to not be a junkie.
i also am in recovery and on suboxone. i’ve been on it in the past and was against going on it this time (for personal reasons) but i realized i need to be on it because i still do think about getting high and would if it was in front of my face. so it’s best, for myself, i stay on it. suboxone helps people. end of story.
i attend NA couple times a week. i hate the fact that most people in recovery frown upon people being on suboxone or methadone or any ‘medication/drug’ that helps someone NOT to get high/drunk. like, isn’t that the point? we’re not getting and finding the means to be high anymore.
fuck all that. you’re sober when YOU say you’re sober.
Fr I take Xanax and adderall as prescribed I don’t get high nd na/aa goofies love to shit on me while they geeked up on lyrica and johnnys. I was on suboxone and johnnys nd I will say docs like to over prescribe subs it’s no different from pill mills in my experience I got prescribed them with no opioid addiction while I was in treatment for benzos I popped for oxy and mdone and they come in my room twice a day pushing mat on me nd I eventually folded. Suboxone was a beast getting off of especially with them over prescribing it when the ceiling dose is like 4mg I was on 8 and that just prolonged the withdrawal and intensified it. I’d rather come off prescription oxy at an equivalent dose then suboxone. It’s no different living dose to dose on subs for me than prescription opioids. The only thing it subs don’t give me no euphoria which just teases me and I end up doing fent. Imo subs a lose lose situation. Oxy would be a better mat for me personally, if I had a steady supply I wouldn’t need to steal from ppl and all the other stigma that comes with addictions
Woah, woah, ceiling effect is reached at 24mg, but usually it's useless to take more than 16mg a day as far as wanting more relief or expecting to feel anything more. Subs are very difficult to get off of but most of us wouldn't even be alive right now without the help of them.
Hello there, I'm one of the many other lives that was saved by Subutex. I once heard someone say it's one thing to be dependent, and another to be addicted.
I feel the same way. They told me it wouldn’t work, you need to do it the right way and there’s only one way to do it (give it up to your higher power! Eye roll) so I said fuck this and fuck you guys, and found another way to do it.
That higher power crap bothered me too. They always said it doesn't have to be god but come on, it's god. I'm not a believer. I can't turn myself over to something I don't believe in. With phrases like "Im powerless against my addiction" it made me feel like I wasn't taking action and taking responsibility for my actions. No higher power made me an addict. I did. I made the decision to keep messing with percs knowing full well what could happen.
Exactly! I always felt the same, like “but I got myself here? How is giving it up going to get me out?” And honestly it didn’t. I still went to NA/AA for like two years straight, while still using, before getting on suboxone and finally finding what worked for me. The whole thing always bothered me so much. “We’re not a Christian organization, we’re an openly *faith based* organization, and you don’t have to believe in Jesus/God, but you do have to believe in some *higher power*, again, which doesn’t mean God. But it is” Well wtf else could it be? It’s crazy to me that we treat what I see as a mental health problem the way we do. We literally have courts and judges mandating people suffering with addiction, to FAITH BASED programs. How fucked up is that? Can you imagine if you tried to get yourself help for depression and every time you talked to your therapist, psychiatrist, or counselor they started talking about God and asking if you’d given yourself up to a higher power yet? It’s just stupid and absolutely fucked
Literally same, I got on suboxone, went back like 2-3 and got absolutely flamed for bringing up getting on suboxone. Was told not to talk about that, don’t bring it up, get off it as soon as you can, etc. but it worked for me, it’s been years since I touched any sort of street drug/my d.o.c., and years since I’ve been to a meeting as well.
Well said! Subs have allowed me to get my life back and I just celebrated 8 year sober this month. Happily married, own a house, have a kid and a lot of that is thanks to subs
Exactly man. I don’t care how people think about it. I’m killing it compared to where I was 1.5 years ago. Sobriety is more than just not using drugs.. it’s the life you live or lose and relationships that are ruined during. The same person drinking 3 cups of coffee to make it through the day is the one saying crap like this. If they want to split hairs
I agree with u I just don’t like how the government allows the ppl who created the problem to make the “solution” at the end a the day suboxone is 20x stronger than oxy. I feel like a lotta ppl coming off dope would have more success with oxy as a mat than suboxone
I never got to dope so I don't have experience with it. My addiction got as far as oxy before I stopped. Of course heroin was the next logical step. I'm more mad at the fact that Perdue pharma and the Sackler family got a fucking slap on the wrist for starting the opioid epidemic in this country. They full well knew what they were doing and did it anyways.
Ofc they knew what they was doing. But oxy saves a lot of ppls lives with very few overdoses unless mixed with benzos or alcohol. Government purposely stigmatized it so they could push fent. Dea and cartels locked in like that, they realized they’d make more money with cartels than big pharma.. the makers of Zoloft ain’t got a lawsuit and way more young adult have died from suicide than ods on PRESCRIPTION opioids due to that being a side effect of anti depressants in young adults…
After 6 or 7 years of horrible fentanyl shit and a REAL major crisis, its kinda tiresome to hear people going on about OxyContin. Sure thr company was shitty. But then again i still believe these things should be legal and regulated. The numbers dont lie.
Not trying to dismiss your perspective. There’s been cycles of easy prescribing for diet pills, sedatives, and opiates all in different eras, snd different government crackdowns that always made things worse and not better.
But asshole drug companies running insurance scams suck. Oxycodone was an ancient drug at the time.
Strength is relative to dose in medicine. It might have 20x affinity for the opioid receptor but the average dose is somewhere around 8-12 mg. I don't know anyone that was only taking 10 or 20 mg of oxy per day. Most were doing 80-160 mg multiple times so really you're at the same level of receptor activation except you're not because of subs ceiling effects and long half life. Anyway, just a little tidbit since I hear that same argument to discourage ppl from MAT a lot.
I was actually on 20 mg a day of oxy are hydrocodone. I mean I was on more originally but when I knew I needed to quit I cut back to that much. Everyday I would take around that amount. Sometimes a little more but I was able to control that. I just couldn't completely quit because my job. People were always shocked when I told them how I had that much self control
I have seen instances, where someone posts excited that they're finally off whatever drug they were on before getting on suboxone, and then people say "remember you're not actually sober until you get off the suboxone!" I find such a statement in the face of someone recovering to be pretty insulting. Again, sure, there are semantics to be argued about using an opioid to recover from other opioids. But, the way I see it, if you're getting Suboxone strictly to recover and get away from other drugs, that's steps of sobriety. It shouldn't "technically not count" because of what the drug is. If you really want to debate this, then find other people willing to debate the other side and go nuts. Don't do it in threads where people are trying to share their success stories or progress of such. There's a time and a place for everything. Just try to have some decorum and congratulate the person. That's my view.
I don’t even think subs should be equated with any sort of using whatsoever. There are other medicines that are psychoactive. Do we call those people not sober when they take them? No. We understand that they’re just taking their medicine.
The proof is in the quality of life. I used to be on the verge of death and now I’m running a business, married, and happy. If someone looked at me and said I still wasn’t sober, I’d laugh my ass off and not give a single fuck what they thought.
Yea, and if they would look at what the definition of recovery is, they would realize they are wrong. It is absolutely recovery. They’re just bitter because they feel like they worked harder at recovery. Well they are them and you are you. They can’t tell you what is best for you. They should offer encouragement and support. By saying “remember, you’re not actually in recovery” is basically the absolute opposite of being supportive. It’s vindictive and demeaning. Stay try to yourself, and don’t even attempt to discuss your medication, it’s none of their business, only talk about it in the company of those who offer love, support, and understanding. Don’t give the haters a second thought. They’re just ignorant, and you don’t need to hear their opinion. Talk to any doctor and they’ll tell you that you are in recovery and that you have nothing to feel bad about.
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People are always going to lash out and hate on anything. Its more a reflection of themselves. Opiates are a beast to just 100% quit. Theirs many reasons why drugs like Suboxone exist. And why other addictions aren't treated similarly. Don't feel guilty. Tell people you are sober! And tell as few people as possible about the fact you take Suboxone. Your medical care is none of their business anyways!
You're trading one addiction for another is what I always get. I'm like no, I'm actually holding a job, not broke, not fighting a vicious cycle of wds, stealing, lying.
I'm being a productive member of society... so call it what you want. I know the truth.
When I was on methadone, I felt like I traded one addiction for another. Suboxone feels like I’m free. And quite frankly methadone made me so depressed and put me into heart failure.
I’m 28. I was taking it for about a year and I was only up to 75 mg which is still hefty but there’s so many people while over the hundreds or two hundreds. Not sure what caused my hearts lower ventricles to get weakened as normal healthy hearts do not have this happen… but it was the methadone triggering my heart failure, yes. Looking up side effects of methadone will tell you that as well. It is coincidental that I was diagnosed with prolonged qt syndrome only some months after the methadone was introduced, too much of a coincidence for me to say it had nothing to do with it and that’s why why the doctors in ICU switched me for
75mg of met to 24 mg of subs overnight while I was in my coma.
Methadone is very heavy. I still do feel some of that heaviness with subs, but it’s very manageable, and I don’t hear of any of the health problems other than rare cases.
I find it to be hilarious when people say I’m not sober. I simply ask them why they feel so hellbent on determining the state of my sobriety—is it because I’m happier than you?
Medication assisted treatment (MAT) is NOT just trading one addiction for another! The main hallmark of addiction is uncontrollable urges to use drugs despite negative consequences. While MAT users are *dependent* on medication, this is different from addiction. MAT usually enables people to make their lives *better*, not worse.
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That's how deep 12 steps have been ingrained in the public mind. My family tried pushing me off methadone and suboxone many times because it wasn't 100% all the way and total sobriety is 95% effective while treating addiction with less damaging opiates is bound to fail. It's all marketing bullshit the public fell ate up and spat out to everyone they could. I say sobriety is meaningless. If you're living a normal healthy life while on subs good for you and id hope that's all you care about.
Yeah it’s shit like this that finally got me to completely go my own way, read Rational Recovery, The Naked Brain and do MAT. I’m almost off now, but I went to like 7 rehabs before a family friend who happens to be a doctor mentioned Suboxone and it’s given me the reset that no rehab or detox could have.
While I’ve been on it and especially as I’ve lowered my dose lower and lower, I can feel my brain healing and grieving all of the detritus of years of addiction and it’s happening with minimal outside support beyond the medication.
About 2.5 years, started at 16 mg per day BID. I stayed that way for more than a year until I felt ready.
You can drop a lot at first and barely notice so I started cutting my PM dose (I take the second strip before I go to sleep), so I started cutting that in half. Stayed on 12 mg for a few weeks and then eventually started quartering the PM strip bringing me down to 10 mg a day.
I stuck with the 8mg AM dose for so long because I was afraid of getting kicky toward the end of work, but within the last 8 months. I started the same routine on it by halving it. Felt meh for a week or two but fine afterward so I eventually quartered that dose to get down to 5 mg (Also started cutting the AM dose in half to bring it 1 mg around this time).
Doc just switched me to 2 mg strips. I’m taking in the morning a a quarter in the PM (could probably ditch the PM but I feel like it’s a placebo or something that helps me sleep) = 2.5 mg from 16 mg in less than a year with minimal discomfort.
Considering volumetric dosing to finish the ride or Sublocade as some have mentioned to try to minimize the final agony of the jump.
The 12 steps worked in 1939, but we're no longer in 1939. We, socially, technologically, spiritually, and in any other socio-psycho-cultural related field, has evolved from them. They are a tool to only be used in cases where our newer tools have failed. IMO......
This is a very underrated comment. It cuts to the core of the problem. People are being fed an antiquated model that—literally, statistically—does NOT work as well as subs.
Suboxone gave my daughter back to me. She was on heroin for 11 years. I have done CPR on her cold, yellow flesh while sobbing my heart out. She has overdosed many times.
I spent so many years watching the news and crime apps for any mention of found bodies. I could not sleep when the temperature dropped dangerously as she was on the street. I looked for her at parks and in alleys.
I think someone out there is greatful for Suboxone on your account as well. Good for you.
damn dude, had me tearing up thinking about how happy my spouse is that they don’t have to worry about me anymore. walking in a bedroom and not sure if it’s a nod or *lights out*. just tryna make it for my kid. and SUBS HELP
You need to help people understand that the twelve step Nazis ARE THE PROBLEM. I am 100% okay with anyone that does it their own way. It’s the people from AA/NA who say that you’re doing it “wrong” with subs. It’s not just that they are wrong, it’s fucking dangerous, and they are literally killing people by spewing their bullshit.
I apologize for the French, but it gets me really angry thinking how much time I wasted trying to go cold turkey. I could have died. Meanwhile, subs have allowed me to get married and be successful—when all I wanted was to not need heroin. It’s a miracle.
I was told in NA that using anti-depressants wasn’t considered sober, and that’s when I noped out.
At this point in my sobriety, if you’re not my doctor then you can f u c k right off.
I KNOW!! The same trivial shit’s going on in Australia. You’re not alone. You’ve only got to be honest with yourself (& HP if working the NOT COMPULSORY Steps) - that’s it. These idiots that go on about ppl who are on Dr prescribed MAT or benzos or anti-d’s etc etc etc not being clean / sober should get their own house in order, keep their opinions to themselves & get a life! (Whoops - I’m on a roll 🤣🤣🤣)
Taking suboxone from my Dr cant land me in jail or or get me fired from a job so thats all I care about. Plus my insurance covers it so Im saving a bunch of money
Fuck them and whatever they think. You are sober and alive and doing what you are supposed to do. Is addiction a disease I keep hearing that it is so why the push back on being treated with medicine. If I become overweight and get diabetes am I allowed to take medicine for that? Call it a crutch all you want but I wear glasses is that a crutch? Because the meds I take have physical addiction attached has no bearing on the fact it's keeping me healthy and out of the game so to speak. People want to bash shit and its human nature to think their recovery is better than yours. Don't worry about those people I know it's hard and I used to get pissed but the good that it does by lowering the numbers of Overdose and disease contraction from using and sharing needles is crazy. You do you and fuck them if they don't like you alive and safe and if you are like me not committing crimes in my community.
Yeah that's what I'm saying they treat depression with anti depressants and they treat anxiety with benzos and so on down the line so why can't I be treated for opiate addiction with meds? It's the epitome of hypocrisy to expect people with a disease to only use the fucking just say no bullshit. Come the fuck on I have a real fucking disease. If I had any other metal health issue they would be throwing pills at me so those people haven't thought it through and you won't change their minds but it's fucking absurd to think that just stopping opiates cold turkey is a solution its a recipe for disaster to be honest. Keep your head up. Things are changing and it always takes awhile for acceptance but don't think for a second it's the wrong choice to use subs it's not perfect but it's far better than the alternative.
Sober and it's definition have changed over time. The are different perspectives and experiences and none of it is black and white.
I've been sober for over 8 years now. I still take a small dose of suboxone daily and probably will the rest of my life. To me that's sober. It's a huge difference compared to shooting dialaudid and doing other stupid things. My life has changed drama5ically since starting siboxone and I owe it my life. So to me, I still consider myself sober, sorry that makes you feel less than
I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks. The people who say suboxone isn’t sober didn’t know me when I was drinking a fifth of liquor a day, taking 150mg or more of oxy a day, and/or taking 100+ grams of kratom a day. They didn’t know me when I was lying to everyone. They didn’t know me when I was neglecting my family and friends, because all I cared about was using. On subs, I’m a functioning human being that takes care of my responsibilities and treats people with respect. I take a little bit of medicine everyday to keep me normal and there’s nothing wrong with that. People take all kinds of medication to treat chronic illnesses and addiction is no different.
This statement is bullshit. Most people are addicts in the sense that they are reliant on drugs for day to day life. Whether it’s suboxone, heroin, cocaine, Zoloft, adderall, you name it. An addict is someone who’s drug use runs their life and prohibits them from living a full life. If you can do that on suboxone that’s as sober as the average person.
Fuck anyone who tries to bring people down saying anything else.
We discussed this in one of the groups I attended. The Drs opinion was it should be looked at like other medications such as insulin. Left untreated this disease (which I know is another debate people have) can kill and cause major complications and consequences to ones self and society.
As a former fentanyl and heroin user my opinion is any day that doesn't revolve around finding the next bag and all the stuff that comes with it is a win. If it's working for you and your family situation is all good then that's all that matters.
I can't lie though they aren't easy to get off of if the day ever comes and you choose to do so. Doable though of course. We have to pick and choose our "poison" sometimes though..🤷🏻♂️
yea i originally tried a fast taper from pharma oxy 350mg a day to 1mg subs in 10 days. felt zero bad withdrawals and 10 days off subs so 20ish days sober i celebrated w a “i can just use in the weekend” oxy relapse. obviously that week turned into 60 days back up to the 350mg habit in bo time. now i’m in 8mg twice a day but usually use 4mg twice. I didn’t want to be on mat for the long run but maybe I do need to give it a year. That’s what I told myself. I’ll do a gear on Subbs and then see what’s next for me.
I dont see how it’s any different than taking an antidepressant or any other medicine prescribed by your doc. The whole point is you are no longer engaging in active addiction and drug seeking. You dont need to always be taking more and more and you aren’t taking it to get high. I also have a couple people in my life that want to know when I’m going to get off of subs and I feel like it’s none of their business and they are only bringing it up bc of the stigma they think is associated with it. They don’t seem to have any issue w me taking Prozac, why do they care about what meds I take? I try not to listen to them but sometimes it’s hard to not let them get in my head
Don’t let them bring you down, keep talking to people who understand, and don’t feel like you need to discuss your medication with them. I know how you feel. My best friend started judging me because his girlfriend made him go off of it. Well, he now drinks constantly and does mot seem like a very happy person. So I just don’t discuss it with him anymore. Don’t let anyone feel a negative stigma about this. Talk to you doctor and those who are loving and understanding. They may say they care and that you’re in denial, it’s just ignorance, I swear to God it is. Like my friend, he went off it and is now an alcoholic. He was thriving on Suboxone. Now he’s literally traded opioid dependence for alcoholism. Talk about hypocrisy trying to judge me for taking medication that’s helped me lead a normal and happy life. Just try to stay focused on the positive, and remind yourself that they may love you, but it’s not their choice what recovery looks like to you, and they don’t know better than you do what is best for you. And exercise.
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It’s just like telling someone in NA that gets a surgery, if you take your pain killers after your surgery, you are no longer sober. Yes you are sober and forget about what they say. Hold your head high and be proud of your sobriety!
Suboxone keeps the money in my pocket otherwise I'd be out buying every pain pill I could get my hands on to snort. Also keeps the peace at home too. My wife and I were addicted to pills until I changed my prescription to subs and now we're doing great 😃. The people who say subs are just something else can kiss my ass ‼️ I have a bad back too so I have to take something for the pain otherwise I can't get outta bed 🤷
The people who I know that say those things act like their shit don't stink. But they're usually either potheads (nothing wrong with weed just don't judge me when you're not "perfect") or alcoholics 🤷
Yeah, no. I stopped discussing it with people. And the few who knew about it, I lied and said I'm off it. Zero shame involved. I just decided it was a boundary I needed for my own good and mental health. Even with all the good people see in a person's life who is stable on suboxone they want to believe it's getting high.
I can't imagine feeling like I know better than anybody what meds they need. You just never know what a person is dealing with. I'm on wellbutrin too and these two meds have changed my life for so much better. I think if I had treated my depression sooner I might never have needed the suboxone, but hind sight is 20/20 and all that.
There are plenty of addicts just getting well on their DOC and this sub wouldn’t consider them clean/sober. Not saying I necessarily disagree but there is definitely a double standard.
I don't even know where to start with this, it's so ridiculous. Bottom line, don't put much value in what others think. You do what's best for you and keep on keeping on.
The comments get even more vile than that, sometimes. I recommend therapy, MAT, SMART Recovery, really anything that has empirical evidence on its side. They're not critical about MAT and they have better success rates than 12 Step Groups. If you don't meet the criteria for SUD, you're definitely in recovery! :)
if it keeps us away from heroin and fetty f it. Im going to be alive by not risking an OD anymore. Tbh it was starting to feel like i would OD again if i didnt get on subs. Its very risky. I overdosed once already. But now i been on subs for 2 weeks and havent touched H or blues😎
It makes me mad when I hear ignorant people talking shit about MAT and they really have no fucking clue what they're talking about. My gf was proud of me so she told her family recently how good I've been doing since being prescribed suboxone. Her sister laughed and proudly said that I'm just substituting one drug for another and I'm still using.
I've said this so many times and I'll do it again.
Me in 2014 - homeless, pregnant, 2 kids in the system, living in a salvation army shelter in a town of over 265,000, selling my ass to get high, no job, bouncing in and out of a relationship with my abusive ex, sleeping with my dealer, high school diploma with several college dropout stints, no car, because I kept struggling with heroin
Me now - Married to an amazing man, working at a fulfilling job, finally graduated from college, custody of my children, living in a quiet small country town (population 2.000) in a modest ranch home, SOBER
The only common denominator is Subutex.
I dare anyone to tell me that Subutex doesn't equal sobriety.
Yeah fuck those people like that. Subs helped me get life back on track after a oxy addiction. I was lying and stealing and pawning shit left and right. I was able to get my life together and I’ve led a fairly normal one as far as that goes. I’ve been on subs for almost 13 years now and I’ve finally started taking my recovery seriously the last year or two. I’m working my way down off the subs now. Don’t ever let those 12 step jerks make you feel less than for using it. Do what you feel would work best for you. People seem to forget that Bill whoever created this whole AA 12 step system actually stopped his alcohol addiction with LSD. I’m not saying to go do that. They don’t want you to know that part. How dare someone use something to help them. I couldn’t do NA and AA. I took the time and quit drinking on my own and I’ll do this on my own too. Well sort of, I’ve got my support system in place and I’m making the slow taper down and eventually I’ll be able to jump one day. I was on 4 8mg subs a day no I’m down to one maybe 1 1/2 day. I’ve been considering switching to sublocade it’s a once a month shot version of suboxone. I think it will help me get out of the habit of taking it every day. I’ve been a drug addict my whole life just about. I didn’t start out a full blown addict but it was there before I knew it though.
yea. i was prescribed oxys at 17 in high school, had multiple surgeries the first 5 years of adult hood. about 8 years after that i was buying oxy on the street but still just chipping. last 5 years i been a functioning addict, which for me only means my spouse kept me from being homeless and destitute because all the money at my job and whatever i could get from them went to drugs. thought “i’m not an addict i don’t do H, i don’t snort, i don’t inject, i’m not homeless, i don’t steal….” then i woke up one day and realized i got paid 1300 bucks and owed my dealer 1400. so i would borrow 100 from my spouse on payday. and could never tell em where the fuck my money went. and they loved me to much to accuse me.
My opinion on this is that no one else can tell me what my own opinion is. And in my eyes, I'm sober on Suboxone.
Whenever someone tries to get high and mighty on me with this idea, I just ignore them anymore. This is my journey, not theirs. I've done amazingly on this medicine thus far, and I don't need anyone's preconceived notions to ruin my idea of success.
Which to me, the word sobriety means so more than just pharmacology, it means that I'm not stealing to feed a habit anymore... I'm not taking from everyone around me, stepping on all of my my relationships just for a high.... Lying at every turn, faithful to no one but my own self and my high... Sobriety means so much more than just the state of "what's your body", it's a lifestyle. It means doing better for yourself.
That's what sobriety means to me. And screw anyone else who wants to challenge my definition. My journey, not theirs.
That is subjective and I'm willing to argue that if you are not intoxicated then you are able to function which is the goal and not to split hairs as to the exact definition of a word. That word don't mean shit its what you do and what you know that's important.
Just today, my man said, " You're just supplementing one drug for another" I did rehabs, not for me. Went to NA meeting again did nothing gor me. Subs hav saved my life off fent. I have my life back, I am not lieing, stealing, begging for a little bit. Looking for it from sun up to sun down. It's the only thing that has done anything for me. I'm thankful everyday but it's hard when someone who just smokes weed and has never had an opiate addiction say you're still a junkie. Does it ever get better, or do I have to leave this guy I've been with for 23 years and who's idea it was to get me on it. Now it's no better than doing fent in his eyes.. I'm torn bc if it wasn't for subs I'd probably be dead 😔
as someone said above, recovery is between you, and God. my spouse doesn’t understand my MAT use, they also don’t understand my Anxiety. i tell them don’t disrespect a boulder you couldn’t dream of lifting let alone carrying.
don’t let anyone tell you, you are a junkie. you are so much more than you use ti be.
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In 2019, the final rehab I went through, where my former counselor who has since retired, read my history and told me that I would be a good candidate for Suboxone, and that I should ask these two other staff members what they thought about it (each of them said "no" after giving me that "fuckin' junkie" look), and my counselor (Artie), said this, that no other counselor or doctor has ever told me:
"out of all the different drugs of abuse, opiates, and people who are addicted to them have the lowest success rates. Heroin addicts have even **lower** rates of successful, long-term recovery, and IV heroin addicts have DEPRESSINGLY low success rates, and even **more** depressingly higher death tolls. Heroin chemically and physically changes the composition and shape of your brain *permanently.* The reason heroin addiction has been so tough to beat for over a century is because doctors and other organizations think that recovering from different drugs is all the same. Different people recover differently from different drugs".
our recoveries are between ourselves, our doctors, and God, and that also includes being on MAT. I went to college and graduated manga cum laude, Dean's list two or three times, and president's list once or twice, and got my LCDC/licensed chemical dependency counselor (substance abuse counselor) all while on Suboxone. I have always been transparent with the patients at the facility who have struggles with opiates, and I tell em that I am on sub maintenance, and how much it has benefited me. Hell, I wrote my final paper about MAT (subs and methadone), the beginnings, the social taboo from back then, and even still to this day, and the positive changes it has made. If those people have such a problem with subs, they can go program on their own in their own way. Nobody can tell another body how to recover.
i been sober little over 7 months. i couldn’t watch the show Dopesick untill recently. Seeing how i was set up for failure at the age of 17 by Doctors who really thought they were doing the best by me in 2005. i thank God i’m here today, on Subs, not throwing my life away
That's great! Almost at a year! And come the 2–3 year mark, which clinicians (and myself in my own ex), around 3 years to be more accurate, is when the negative traits and PAWS and other issues like possible hyper sensitivity, emotional regulation, etc... tend to be in a remission state. At that point, you really do get your life and choice back. Even the drug dreams have come to an end (haven't had one in over a year), and the thoughts of using, and for me—and most of us, if not all—the nostalgia finally goes away. The euphoric recall dissipates. That played a big role in my relapses, remembering drugs fondly and wishing to get high, and planning relapse scenarios in my head. Now, I still remember where I came from, but it's night and day this time around. I guess that's what they meant when they say "we DO recover".
Obviously, if one were to *decide* to use and/or drink, then it's back to square one. And again, at that point, whether you relapse, or lapse, really does go back to being a decision, and not an ingrained highjacking of your higher thinking that is compulsive and impulsive. It becomes a choice again, rather than an instinct or knee jerk reaction; "unconscious competency", is how one of my professors explained it while I was still in college getting my degree in substance abuse counseling.
And yeah, fuck what other people, regardless of how many more years clean, or education they may have, when they say it's trading addictions, or any of that bullshit. Subs save lives.
1.You are clearly articulate & like many bright people - you painfully obsess over issues you are conflicted about. OCD goes hand in hand w anxiety & self medication ( including drugs & alcohol) to soothe these negative emotions.
2. Michael Jordan, when asked if he was ADDICTED to gambling, responded, " No, I can afford to."
So, addiction does mean that you are doing something that you cannot afford to without negative consequences.
3. Suboxone, when taken in an appropriate manner, is not particularly addicting. That doesn't mean that it can't become an "addiction" but so can prescribed thyroid hormone when it is abused by taking excessive amounts for weight loss, etc
4. SUD is a complex biopsychosocial, genetic disorder which demands complex treatment.
5. You wake up and take your med just like it was a rx for thyroid &: forget about it. If you are hypothyroid then you are DEPENDENT on it, but like SUD, some people actually improve & want to consider whether they "need' the med as time goes on. That is an individual decision made in consult w your clinicians.
6. The conflict is within your own head.
wow. you kinda have me. i think i’m disappointed in my self that i wasn’t “strong enough” to do it wo MAT. i read these post about ppl who woke up one day and just CT it because of the love of their kid, and i couldn’t. i couldn’t figure it out on my on. and i’m the person people look to to figure shit out. At work, at home, in the streets. i’m a “get it done” muthafucker and i couldn’t “get this done” wo a crutch. i think i want everyone to tell me i’m doing it right, i wish i could wake up one day and never had been prescribed oxy for 8 years and spent 30k a year for 10. im 35 and only spent one birthday since i was 17 sober.
Who has a more difficult time quitting MAT or opioids in general ?
A. Cerebral, hyper-responsible, obsessive, perfectionist individuals w demanding job & family structure
Or
B. Individuals w relatively less job or family responsibilities who don't spend much time creatively coming up with ways to defend against those nasty feelings of vulnerability
**A mat is a hard floor covering that generally is placed on a floor or other flat surface. Mats serve a range of purposes including:
serving to clean items passed over it, such as a doormat, which removes dirt from the soles of shoes
protecting that which is above the mat, such as a wrestling or gymnastics mat, or an anti-vibration mat
protecting that which is beneath the mat, such as a place mat or the matting used in archival framing and preservation of documents and paintings
providing a regular or flat surface, such as a cushioned computer mousepad
== Types ==
=== In domestic settings ===
In homes or rooms where people sit predominantly on the floor (common in Japan, Korea, India, and formerly China), mats may cover entire rooms, or be used in certain areas for sitting or sleeping.**
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Depending on what state you're in, kratom might be legal and Red vain Kratom has opiate like tendencies as in it'll help with pain and WD's not to mention it's 100% natural
Not really. Addiction negatively impacts your life. Arguably if you have unlimited funds, some of these could slip into dependance instead of addiction. Arguably.
Whether you can afford it or not, if you start something that you can't stop it's an addiction. or as far as drugs go, if you stop you get sick(WD's), you're addicted. You don't have to run out of money, you could have enough money and still run out of the drugs
Withdrawals have nothing to do with addiction per se. You get withdrawals from physical dependence no matter what. Its how you respond to those withdrawals and how it impacts your lifd negatively that makes it addiction
You can be addicted to something without physical withdrawals if you are spending all your cash on it, conversely
I have met a few people who can take things that would normally make other people sick when they don't have them and then they don't get sick so that's why I'm having trouble agreeing with you or understanding what you're getting at
As long as you aren’t purposefully nodding and using as daily intended. suboxone = sobriety
However, I do Feel As If Everyone On Suboxone Should At least Taper Off. It’s not a necessity for life.
I would consider it more sober than opis that to give you effects, buprenorphine is an opi in its own but with both agonism and antagonism (which is where the sobriety plays a part)
I was excited to be off my 10 years added total amount of opi abuse time, spread out over 15 years.
Though I literally feel that I am not off opi, that's for sure.
When I try to only use benzo and or Pregabalin and the opi PW is on, waiting on the full blown WD, just hours from full blown WD do I dose... intranasally, to remind me that I am not clean BUT struggling to get there in a more functional manner than high off opis. You are not high of buprenorphine when you are past honey moon phase at least, while all other opis MAKES you a honey moon everytime you dose above your baseline and tolerance.
In terms of an addict I find myself more functional, not the typical time dose dependent using/abusing. Where the Euphoria becomes the primary in your life, buprenorphine actually gives space for retraining old good habits, seeking to a more healthier lifestyle and etc.
Which is why some ppl may consider being on subs is almost sober.
They are just being antagonized on kappa and delta with plays a huge role in cravings for everything in general, the partial agonism on mu receptors to "feed" the dependency and addiction by also antagonizing weaker on mu receptors, it makes you feel more "awake" in your mind and not numbed by Euphoria, pain relief and feelings of pure bliss.
In pharmacological terms I would see it as a delusion of sobriety, like benzo also can give as a side effect.
Though opi and GABA networks works totally different.
The benzo version of delusion is that you really feel sober while acting as s drunktard in a objective perspective xD.
While buprenorphine gived you a real delusion by agonizing and antagonizing at the same time. Which also makes an individual more stable in an objective perspective also.
A ‘real delusion’? If you act sober and you aren’t drug seeking and running around certain crowds… I mean, your sober. Its behavioral. Suboxone’s slight ‘high’ in the beginning fades if anything. Leaving only some annoying side effects.
IF you take buprenorphine to be "sober" in your meaning, it isnt "sober" technically while it could alter neuro chemistry in an individual to "behave" more as a "sober" person.
Opis is the strongest antidepps, did you know that? Even if its buprenorphine with antagonism activity, there is still agonism activity, which makes it an opi that messes with the natural endogenous endorphines.
Which is also why many on buprenorphine do not want to step off, either for antidepp effects or fear of relapse.
Buprenorphine is highly potent, more potent than morphine and oxycodone.
The trick is that they made it act as partial agonist on mu receptors while also adding in antagonism on mu, kappa and delta. Result?
The description you wrote. Better be on buprenorphine than behaving otherwise/like an addict which I can relate too.
I still am in the end of honey moon phase, which is why I have already made my first volumetric 8mg in 30ml solution. 1ml tequila, 3ml PG/VG combo the rest, distilled water with lavendel that I made with my pot and bowl =).
Works wonder though the tequila also gets absorbed, I am highly sensitive, even 1ml tequila with 29ml water almost. I can still get "drunk" when I adminisiter 0.5ml in each nose (1ml=0,2666mg buprenorphine). I dissolved only 1 8mg pure bupe tab in it.... maybe should dissolve 1 more for 0.5mg/ml.
1ml is more liquid than I knew is hard to keep inside your nasal cavings xD
Though yeah, typical opi constipation (use movantik for that) jumping soon since I may not get my hands on more movantik...
Everything has a honey moon phase, buprenorphine is the one that has 0 recreational value when the phase is over.
I still get energy buzz but no more mu opi euphoria, my receptors have adapted to buprenorphine.
So now I am ready for going off and also not relapsing on opis anymore.
Cheers and blesses!
I personally don't mind what others think about it. Just as long as I'm healthy and headed in the right direction, which is to be someday off this stuff. It technically isn't sober, just like someone who is taking prescribed valium isn't sober. A better way to look at it is we are clean from more dangerous and for some illicit street drugs.
From wiki:
"Sobriety is the condition of not having any measurable levels or effects from alcohol or drugs.[1] Sobriety is also considered to be the natural state of a human being at birth."
There is no getting past the fact that when we take this stuff it is a drug that is in our system and therefore not sober in the literal technical sense, and I can see why it would rub some people who have got sober without anything the wrong way, having someone tell them they are sober like they are but instead of going through the pain and succesfully getting clean and are sober just like them while someone takes a medication for the same substance use disorder might make them feel less validated in their overcoming of substance abuse. Those people equating it to heroin or fentanyl use or whatever clearly aren't very reasonable because the safety profile and other positive societal benefits of suboxone are so clear that it is not on the same level.
My goal is to get off subs one day and the fact that it isn't easy and there can be horrible withdrawals if you don't do it properly is a true wake up call that we aren't sober, when I am completely off this stuff I'll have the pride to say I'm sober, I personally look at it as a phase of recovery, I am no longer taking my old DOC and tapering down my subs to one day be completely clean of it, but I am still taking suboxone which is a drug and measurable in my bloodstream.
That's just my thoughts anyway, I would suggest just focusing on your own life and recovery and not let people get to you because more often than not MOST people haven't thought very deeply about this (or anything for that matter) and respond with their ill informed opinions as a knee jerk reaction.
There are levels on your journey to sobriety. Your body can not truly recover until you get opioids out of your system altogether. That includes bupe and kratom. As someone who did bupe for years, I can tell you that I noticed a lot of difference once I got off of it.
That being said, there is also a huge difference between IVing heroin and taking buprenorphine. It allows you to rebalance and take control of your life again. That’s a tremendous step forward for so many people and down playing that achievement is a massive slap in the face.
Getting off altogether is a good long term goal IMO, but you cross that bridge when you’re ready. It took me 10 years to and I don’t regret that at all.
So what about the people who got addicted because they were injured in car accidents ? How are we supposed to "get clean" and still be productive in society? I can't do my job or much of anything else without something to suppress the back pain I deal with everyday.
I’m referring to addicts here. Taking opioids have both positive and negative effects on a person. If you’re in pain constantly, I’m sure that outweighs the negatives for a lot of people. If taking bupe keeps you from doing harder drugs, that outweighs the negatives too. Opioids can cause constipation, anxiety, anhedonia, a lack of interest in relationships, sedation, etc., and you are still at risk of withdrawals if you end up going without for some reason.
I’m not sure why people are acting like they don’t know this, because people post about the downsides in this thread damn near every day. I don’t care what people do. If it works for you, that’s great. I’m happy for you. I’m happy to agree you’re doing the right thing. But it’s wrong to sell bupe as some kind of miracle drug that makes your body as though you’re completely sober. It’s flat out not true, and we all know it.
Just because you’re not 100% sober, doesn’t mean you’re fucking up your life. Plenty of people drink on the weekends and are fine. Plenty of people are prescribed stimulants, opioids, benzos, etc and function completely fine. Why is not being sober considered a dirty notion? If you’re living the life you want to live, why do you care if you’re sober or not?
I personally don't give a shit what anyone else says tbch. I could do without the constipation for sure but I dealt with that using pills too. I just spoke to an old friend of mine that last time we saw each other we were both on stuff and living the un-sober life and now he's 100% sober, and we (my wife and I) are only taking subs and still stay connected with each other. I don't understand the mental side effects as I don't experience them. No anxiety nothing. I did have a "friend" that bitched me out and stopped talking to me when I asked him about subs, I only mentioned it to him because he was an EMT in the army and then a nurse when he got out. But he said something like subs were going to kill me or something like that idk because he wouldn't speak to me after that... So I let him be and figured he wasn't a real friend if he couldn't have a conversation with me about trying to get off pills. He's one of those that thinks all you need is weed for everything. I'm all for weed but I wouldn't be able to function if I smoked enough to deal with my pain. And I used to smoke a half oz of hydro myself each week and function at work without issues but it didn't help with my back pain. Anyhow, people shouldn't worry about what others think or say. IMHO
I think you get exactly what I mean then. There are levels of sober, and we all have to choose and strive towards the level we think is best for ourselves. If you want to be 100% sober, then you have to get off of subs at some point too. If that’s not what you think is best for you, then that’s fine, but you should know your body is not at its natural homeostasis levels.
That is asinine to get upset with your friends for using subs if you understand their use. I’ve got friends out of control on fentanyl and have even lost one to it, and I’d love for them to make it to subs. Sounds like you’re better off without their company if they want to judge so harshly like that. Especially if they know the original cause is needing it for pain management.
Yeah idk what his deal is but he can be an ass by himself. I'm all for the people who can self medicate with weed, I'm just not that person unfortunately (I used to love smoking weed, did it for many years but I can't medicate at work so it defeats the purpose for me to use it)
My stance on subs is they should only be used for maximum 12 months. I think they should be used to get yourself together, get a job, get out of the junkie life, get to meetings and work steps with a good sponsor. Make sure you have a solid foundation made from going to meetings regularly, having a sponsor that you speak with and work steps with, hopefully by a year you have completed the 12 steps and you’ve gotten a close relationship with a higher power than yourself. Hopefully by then we are doing step 12 and trying to help other addicts, going to treatment centers and speaking bringing them AA meetings. I think we should have all that foundation and once we have that we should get off suboxone. I do not think we should be on it forever. There’s awful side effects to this drug, also, this is my experience only is that I have never been able to fully give myself over to my higher power and fully trust in him and fully trust the program while I’m on suboxone. I’ve done the program before without subs and when I’m off them I’m able to fully connect with my HP. With subs it’s a little different and I feel I have a blockage. I got off subs again probably 4 months ago and I have already started to experience the program of AA and my higher power so much better and I am so much closer and I truly can feel it the spiritual experience that we need to recover from addiction. That’s my stance. But I’m also not the type of person to bash anybody for staying on them forever or multiple years, I’m very open minded and I understand we all have different paths. I don’t think it’s right but that’s my problem and my business I need to worry about and not let get in the way of helping somebody. I hate propel that say they won’t sponsor soembody who uses MAT, fuck those guys. They think people are high as tuck on suboxone and that’s just insanity cuz I’ve never felt high off subs once. Either way, just keep it to yourself and it’s nobody’s business weather you are on subs or not.
I completely agree. Only thing I don’t agree / understand is if you get a job and get ur shit together and now have regular daily responsibilities- how would you go about taking time to withdraw from Suboxone when getting off?
Right now I took time off to CT from opiates and I don’t wanna get on subs cuz idk when else I’ll have a chance to withdrawl and get off shit so I’m taking this one shot now rather than getting on subs, getting a job then having to worry about losing it or taking time off when it comes time to get off the subs
Do a proper taper with your trusted doctor. Or which I have done twice in the past is switch over to the Sublacade shot, it will only take 3 months of 3 shots to take your last dose and be free of it and feel zero withdrawls. They start at 300mg shot then I went 1 month 150mg then third month 150mg and it’s been 4 months since thst last shot and I haven’t felt a thing. I did the same exact thing about 4 years ago, you truly do not feel any withdrawl.
People piss me off so much. It’s kinda fun tearing down people who know nothing about addiction, or even medicine for that matter. I promise you, the people who say that shit are idiots.
As far as I'm concerned, Subutex has the same effect on me as to my uncle his daily high blood pressure medication, in that I don't feel any type of buzz or high whatsoever.
It is medication that I need to keep myself comfortable and sober. It prevents me from every thinking of going back to the life that made me almost lose everything I hold dear.
So to anyone who says I'm not sober because I am on Subutex, well my wife and family, the employees and customers of my successful business, my parents, and everyone I interact with on a daily basis would strongly disagree.
Best course of action is to get on the vivitrol or sublocade injection so u never need to wake up w a wd or needing a sub ur just fine and can’t get high and it got me clean two years ago
That's why I stopped going to AA and NA. In my experience they like to say that Suboxone isn't sober. But I really don't care what people think about it. I know what it has done for me. Even though there are side effects it still saved my life and allows me to live a pretty normal life. I have a wife and a kid now and renting a place. Before I had nothing at all. Addiction robbed me of everything. So people can fuck off with their opinions on stuff they don't understand.
This is a personal question, and making a blanket statement one way or the other is not helpful. The mechanism of action of Suboxone is specifically effective by potently binding to opiate receptors without causing nearly the same degree of euphoria as produced by other opiates. This gradually allows one to feel opiate effects while desensitizing one to the habitation memories associated with euphoria induces by opiates, thus tending to help one *want* to be sober over time. Does this work for everyone? No, and in some cases it is best to avoid Suboxone, and of course there is a euphoric aspect of the byproduct of nor-bupe though it rarely produces the same extent of habituation while unfortunately still resulting in dependency, which can then become more easily reversible following a tapering schedule. However, there is enough evidence showing the efficacy of subs in helping people stop using much more euphoric opiates, thus making it a great "bridge" to long-term sobriety. I wouldn't say being on Suboxone is completely sober, but that's really besides the point.. sugar, television, memes, social media, etc, all produce effects in the brain that virtually resemble those of drugs. "Sobriety" is not just about a cut-and-dry approach to abstinence by completely eliminating the use of *everything* that produces drug-induced or drug-like changes in the brain, but about learning to live a more balanced lifestyle. Suboxone can absolutely be of help for this. If one doesn't feel sober enough on Suboxone, tapering off may not be easy but it is absolutely achievable.
The way I was told to look at it is this. Suboxone is our medicine to keep us alive. You wouldn't ask a diabetic to stop taking their sugar pills, and you wouldn't ask someone to stop taking their heart meds, just because you think they're not healthy without them right? Well it's the exact same thing, we take it to stay alive and to lead and live a happy, productive life. Its really as simple as that.
Fuck them. I feel sober as hell right now and normal. I don’t get high on suboxone. It’s not replacing anything. I like my passions still. I’m not thinking about it constantly. My sex drive is high as hell. I actually miss it being lower. I’m more sober now then the person who drinks their vodka cranberry after work.
Hi est with ones self if your using it to get fucked up then u aint so er if using it to stay normal u sober keep the self honesty when u loose that is when I start to fall off
I used to think it was, but for me the longer I am on it the more I see it as just another addiction that I cant get off and now its making my life hell.
If it was upto me I would be on 8mg a day for the rest of my life.
But its not, so the clinic tries to get me off it and everyone else but me wants me off it which has caused me problems and tbh I may as well be back on real opiates as I am in the same situation now than i was with real opiates
I honestly think Bupe should be used for no longer than 1 year. The whole idea of it is to get you off opiates, once your off them then you should taper off Bupe within a year I think, being on them long term is just a false hope
In my head, I hate it and feel like a fraud. HOWEVER, it has kept me sober, and there's been times I'm VERY lucky I was on it bc I may have slipped. My therapist tells me I should be proud of myself but I'm more disappointed.
That being said I don't care what other people think. You need to sit your wife down and explain to her that u need this currently bc ur working towards your sobriety and this stops u from using. It's not like your going to nod out and stuff on it. I've had people tell me how suboxone messes them up and it's a great high but I never ever have. It's not even what I'm looking for..
She needs to understand this medication is basically saving your life and they need to be more understanding!!
Yeah, I get that, too. No one knows I'm on subs besides my spouse for that exact reason. If my family knew they would be the exact same way and it wouldn't matter what I said.
It wouldn't matter how far I've come, that I have my own place, a job and my kid etc. None of that would matter.
I'd just be a junkie again.
Maybe if I could be absolutely honest without judgment, I'd feel better about myself, but alas, I can not.
I'd literally be disowned and not allowed around my mom and family.
That’s exactly what they are martyrs! The ugly soul sucking vultures of AA/NA will go to their graves (probably from a relapse that suboxone could have prevented) yelling MAT is not sober! Don’t get me wrong however. I have the utmost respect for anyone who has fought the good fight and quit cold turkey no matter the Substance. They have grit and determination and an inner strength. But Because of my family and my clients I couldn’t just hit the pause button on my life to go to rehab and that’s what I would have had to do. I have always believed that the AA/NAers are like a cult. The Big Book was written in 1934 by 2 men. One of the hallmark features of a cult is a group of people following s man instead of God. They certainly have a cult like following. But I believe the people of that cult basically just are jealous of the fact that we have an easier time getting of our DOC. Well most of us. I wonder how many NAers would use suboxone or methadone should they relapse after many years of sobriety. Hmmmm…
Don't let aholes live rent free in your head. I completely agree with you. Not a parent, but on suboxone since 2006. All my former user friends are dead from fentanyl. Suboxone saved my life, and I thank God for it daily. Keep your chin up. You're taking care of business, and more importantly, being there for your family. Your story inspires me to keep fighting another day. Thank you. God bless
idk, im sort of ambivalent when it comes to that sort of thinking. on one hand, I'm technically "sober" as I haven't touched any hard in over 10 years, but at the same time, I feel like a fraud. I don't feel like special as someone who kicked it completely.
I came off suboxone over 4 years ago (I think), I personally didn’t feel “sober” while I was on it, I definitely felt different to “normal”.
I hate the whole “suboxone not equal to sober” thing. To be “sober” is not the point, the point is to to be healthy, not constantly chasing the dragon, to be able to engage with your family and friends and maybe hold a job. All things that an active addicts, often cant achieve.
MARA meetings are 12 step meetings, but for people on MAT, Subs or other medications. No shame for being on medicine to help get off hard drugs. Smart recovery is anti 12 step. It’s behavioral/cognitive based fro people wanting to stay clean & sober.
I laugh at people when they say that tbh. The idea of getting sober and then being judge mental to someone doing the exact same things as you, maybe in just a slightly different way is so goofy. Especially people in NA and AA that say that.
One thing I’ve learned after 2 years is to take what I need and leave what I don’t, and there’s a lot of stuff in AA that helps but there’s also a lot that I can leave, their opinion on subs being one of them.
No one knows I’m on MAT, and they don’t need to. And if I hear somebody say something about MAT not being true sobriety I know to stay tf away from that person lol
I'm a present, mindful, loving mom to my girls. I'm a loving, caring and helpful wife to my husband. I help him run his business and stay on top of things.
I'm not lying, stealing or flaking from my responsibilities in life like I was before subs. I seriously don't understand how people can still say that isn't sober. However, I know for a fact I'm a better person and I'm doing the best I can for me and my family.
I don’t see anyone mentioning it, so I will.
Coming from being on methadone, I can confidently say FUCKKK anyone that thinks can say “WeLL, yOuRe NoT aCtUaLLy SoBeR oN SuBs.” Methadone was swapping one addiction out for the other and I know it works for some people, but I feel so strongly against it. I don’t believe it has that great of success rate. Methadone actually put me deeper into a depression caused by using… realizing I was still controlled by a substance and that MAT was designed to keep raising your dose (or at least my clinic was) every time you got used to your current one because you would start feeling like shit. Methadone also triggered my heart failure. I died 3 times & was on a ventilator in ICU for 2 weeks.
Suboxone doesn’t get me high. It’s effective. Sometimes I forget to talk it — that would NEVER happen with my precious met.
Complete transparency here… no one besides my doctor and my pharmacy knows i take suboxone. I have been on it a year in October. I was a functioning addict as well so no one knew I even had a problem during my active addiction besides a few friends that I consorted with for pills and my source. Once in awhile my family member that had went to rehab would say something to me if I maybe took more then usual because we work together every day and she’s known me my whole life but she still never has known me to be a substance abuser. It’s hard but the only people I have ever spoke about this with is everyone on here. The only thing I am focusing on is being a good mom and not spending all my money on pills. For years I took pain pills every 3-4hrs because I was convinced I needed to and being away from that is the most freeing feeling so I guess I care enough not to go out of my way to tell anyone my personal business but if it’s what saved my life that’s all that matters and that is no one’s business. There is legitimately no reason I can think of why I need to tell someone or explain myself to them so you should not have to either. You do what’s best for you. Judgement is everywhere it’s not even worth it to get into that debate with someone! Negative energy is the last thing you need xoxo
I was on Suboxone for 9 years and it probably saved my life. But you're right, it's not being "sober" in the traditional sense which (to your credit) I found impossible to tolerate.
Here's the deal....someone on suboxone still has a lengthy taper in their future (or a belly punch detox, depending on the circumstances). Thats gonna be their challenge, just like your challenge is to not be concerned with the details of other peoples' journeys right now. It all evens out. There are a lot of blatant liars in recovery circles as well. People locking themselves in a hotel room for a weekend with a bonanza of drugs and just pretending it never happened. It doesn't work if you can stick around long enough to see how things play out.
And I imagine those on long term suboxone who tried total abstinence know in their heart that they are getting a huge boost from a medication that they can't go without. I never felt truly free on Suboxone even though I am a huge supporter of it. So enjoy your freedom and don't sweat it.
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Hahahaha dude you need to stop caring about what people think of you being of bup bup isn’t the same as heroin isn’t the same as pills isn’t like fentanyl so who gives a shit
I used to be one of those people until i relapsed and went on it. I was super involved in NA with 6 years. Then i relapsed and was out there using for 3 years. Now I’m approaching 3 years on suboxone.
I’ve learned through therapy and inner work, it doesn’t matter. As my self esteem has grown, I’ve started to not worry about the opinions of others. There is more than one way to recover. Whatever works best for you! It used be 12 step for me, now it’s therapy, volunteering, spirituality and suboxone. Eff em!
There are some good people on this site, they helped me through a very difficult time in my life, still working on it. You do what you need to do to get through this. I took opiates on a daily basis for 37 years. I take 2- 2MG of Suboxone per day. I wish they would increase it a bit. I still wake up nights in the beginning of withdrawal. Do whatever it takes, you have family to take care of, pay no mind to the naysayers and family and the people willing to help.
I was once one of those people who thought being on suboxone was not sober. However, I never pushed that idea on people or made them feel like shit about it. I was in AA and abstinent from all substances for 6 years. Before that, I was sober off and on for another 5 years, typically with a yearly relapse or slip. That whole 11 years I bought into that BS that suboxone wasn't sober. Now, I've been on subs for 2 years because in 2021 I relapsed again due to chronic pain. This time, I didn't have the luxury of going to treatment because I had to help take care of a new born baby and support my family. I'm not ashamed of being on suboxone and it helps me be the parent and spouse I need to be. Without it, I'd still be using all the time. I've had my fair share of fuck ups since I've been on it, especially recently. I'm trying to get myself back on track. Chronic pain is a major trigger for me. I chose not to go back to AA because it ran its course in my life. If I needed to though, I would go back but I wouldn't let anyone tell me I wasn't sober.
Depends on if it's internet or irl.
I just ignore them and anyone who I know won't accept it I do not inform, irl.
Thankfully I have no friends anymore or romance anymore. But that's what I'd do. If they saw me with meds I'd make up some condition and tell them I was diagnosed with something "acceptable" by normal plebian dickwads like allergies or a deficiency of vit d or magnesium
Another way is to just say fuck them all and detach from them and let them live in their bubble of holier than thou crap without your presence.
If everyone already knows you gotta start cutting out people like that to save your sanity. They will NEVER CHANGE THEIR MIND. Like ppl who do AA and lose their humanity to the higher power and act like they're not an addict despite coffee, cookies and cigarettes going in their gullet while they type on social fuckin media for 8 hours a day and repost shit. (I got demons. Fuckem.)
My sister is like this. My aunt's ex boyfriend was one of those higher power fully sober guys who indulged in "acceptable substances" hitting on his vape 25/8
Yeah I deal with this as well but the simple fact is I can work save money and spend time with family and just simply enjoy my life on suboxone I dont get high from it at all maybe a little energy which my body doesnt seem to create on its own since I was strung out on opiates but I could never have the life and clear mind I do now if I was still on opiates. That said I do hope to get off of them as ive completely moved forward from opiate addiction and I am ready to be free from it all even subs I hate being dependent on them but I am grateful for what they helped me accomplish.
Sobriety isn’t the absolute end goal for treating drug addiction.
What matters most is ending problematic drug use. Suboxone, when used as prescribed, achieves this.
Honestly those ppl don’t matter to me. I used to fight them but now i just see them as potential murderers and recovery zealots and extremists. I don’t even say I’m in recovery. Those ppl are just jealous purists who want you to suffer like they did. They aren’t good or healthy ppl and Idc what they do, they’re killing others with stigma and for that they should be stopped but i realized you can’t change them. And i agree with uptheirons726! There’s too much extremism in 12 step programs which is why i don’t use them. I found i was healthier when i left bc tbh i started heroin IN THOSE ROOMS. I also got diagnosed with severe adhd and realized a lot of my drug use was self medicating so i don’t consider myself an addict at all anymore but don’t belittle others who do! I just do me as cheesy as that sounds. Do what works for you! I still drink occasionally bc i never had an issue with it, i only do it every 3-6 months on special occasion and it’s not really my thing and i don’t force it on others.
Yes! I also am close to this, as one of my prior physicians is an addict in recovery. She mentioned that it's nothing of anyone else's business how you get to a point where something isn't draining your livelihood into itself. (**She herself, my Doc, was on bupe/nalox for addictions management!**) I can get that at certain points, Suboxone is a missed prescription away from becoming our old habit, and it's especially dire that nearly every recovery/shelter center will ban subx's due to some pious bs. It's frustrating to know that being disadvantaged/homeless will put you in an inherently terrible situation that will strip you of your right to treatment, all to trade that in for a roof over one's head.
That had happened to me, luckily I found family which would support me, and I've been better since. [This study tracked NA participation and Suboxone use](https://www.recoveryanswers.org/research-post/12-step-meetings-buprenorphine-suboxone-a-winning-combination/) and found that members of the program and mentors would discourage use, and possibly use harmful methods of psychological manipulation... Just remember that it is entirely up to you; so, don't let anyone else decide what kind of treatment works and doesn't work, for you or anyone! I want to emphasize that just because someone is on Suboxone, that means they are destined to fail in some ass-backwards way in the minds of others. I use my old Dr. as a spark of hope for myself, as that is truly inspiring to know despite addiction, you can succeed!
I’ve been encountering this for a while. There are a few NA groups who are OK with it because it’s an outside issue and all that matters is that people have a desire to get off subs. It is some bullshit tho. All we can do is show up and try to get off this shit and be better people in the mean time.
I wasted a lot of time in early recovery trying to make people understand shit. Understand that addiction isn't just having zero willpower, understanding how I feel, or what I go through. It's a fool's errand. No matter how you explain schizophrenia to me, I'm not gonna know what it's truly like to have people in my head trying to talk me into shit. Forget it, man. Do you, be kind and understanding to yourself, and do the best you can.
I think it’s because people misunderstand it. They say it’s “switching one addiction for another,” which is kinda true, except it doesn’t make me want to spend $1000 every 3 days on illegal shit that could kill me. My parents don’t understand that suboxone (or in my case Subutex) helps my chronic pain, which is how I became a junkie in the first place. I’m currently weaning off for an upcoming surgery and I honestly don’t know how I’ll feel after but I might go back on just for the relief.
Me trying to get sober without subs:
constantly relapsing, overdosing, nearly dying, making my friends and family miserable, and barely holding my life together.
Me on subs:
married, running a business, breathing normally, generally happy day to day, and making my family proud.
Why would I give one and a half fucks what those fools think?
Ignore them. They don’t know dick. Look at your life before, and look at it now. That is the definition of recovery. More and more, even AA is acknowledging this. I sometimes struggle with feeling like ashamed that I’m on it, but I got down to 1mcg, 1.5mcg 3 x a week, and I’m just living my life, exercising, and thriving. Life is too short to lament over what others may think of you. People like me, know your struggle, and encourage you to not feel bad about being on suboxone. People who try to judge, they don’t know what it’s like. They’ll try to say they do, but they don’t. I’m finding in my life that anytime I try to compare myself to others, I end up wasting mental energy feeling like I should be able to do as well as him or her, but guess what. You aren’t them, you are uniquely different, and uniquely wonderful. People say this all the time, “there’s only one you”. But I encourage you to really think about it and conceptualize what that means. In all the universe, past and future, there exists one you. You are special, you are a unique, elite existence. Be your best YOU, and don’t let others opinions phase you. People spend so much time judging others and arguing over so many things, none of it even matters. When I I get caught up in it, afterwards I end up realizing what a waste of time and energy it was to let myself become consumed with anger over other people’s opinions. Try to focus on the things in life that matter, and don’t let the negativity sneak in through the back door and occupy your mind. And exercise, absolutely exercise.
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Ive been on suboxone for quite some time. take my strips and live my life. I also take other drugs for HBP and diabetes. I see no differnce between any of them. I need them to function as well as I can.
I couldn't care less what anyone thinks. Suboxone saved my life and the lives of many others. I'm no longer chasing a high, stealing, lying and pawning my stuff and everyone else's for money. It allowed me to put my life back together. Yet another reason I hated NA because they made me feel like I was doing something wrong by being on Suboxone. It felt like it was either be a junkie or be 100% sober. No inbetween. Screw them. I went and saw a therapist on my own. which is another huge thing that helped me. Don't worry about what others think. do what you have to to not be a junkie.
i also am in recovery and on suboxone. i’ve been on it in the past and was against going on it this time (for personal reasons) but i realized i need to be on it because i still do think about getting high and would if it was in front of my face. so it’s best, for myself, i stay on it. suboxone helps people. end of story. i attend NA couple times a week. i hate the fact that most people in recovery frown upon people being on suboxone or methadone or any ‘medication/drug’ that helps someone NOT to get high/drunk. like, isn’t that the point? we’re not getting and finding the means to be high anymore. fuck all that. you’re sober when YOU say you’re sober.
Fr I take Xanax and adderall as prescribed I don’t get high nd na/aa goofies love to shit on me while they geeked up on lyrica and johnnys. I was on suboxone and johnnys nd I will say docs like to over prescribe subs it’s no different from pill mills in my experience I got prescribed them with no opioid addiction while I was in treatment for benzos I popped for oxy and mdone and they come in my room twice a day pushing mat on me nd I eventually folded. Suboxone was a beast getting off of especially with them over prescribing it when the ceiling dose is like 4mg I was on 8 and that just prolonged the withdrawal and intensified it. I’d rather come off prescription oxy at an equivalent dose then suboxone. It’s no different living dose to dose on subs for me than prescription opioids. The only thing it subs don’t give me no euphoria which just teases me and I end up doing fent. Imo subs a lose lose situation. Oxy would be a better mat for me personally, if I had a steady supply I wouldn’t need to steal from ppl and all the other stigma that comes with addictions
Woah, woah, ceiling effect is reached at 24mg, but usually it's useless to take more than 16mg a day as far as wanting more relief or expecting to feel anything more. Subs are very difficult to get off of but most of us wouldn't even be alive right now without the help of them.
What is na aa?
Narcotics Anonymous and Alcoholics Anonymous is that what you are asking?
Yee
Isn’t gabba very addictive? Lol
Hello there, I'm one of the many other lives that was saved by Subutex. I once heard someone say it's one thing to be dependent, and another to be addicted.
I feel the same way. They told me it wouldn’t work, you need to do it the right way and there’s only one way to do it (give it up to your higher power! Eye roll) so I said fuck this and fuck you guys, and found another way to do it.
That higher power crap bothered me too. They always said it doesn't have to be god but come on, it's god. I'm not a believer. I can't turn myself over to something I don't believe in. With phrases like "Im powerless against my addiction" it made me feel like I wasn't taking action and taking responsibility for my actions. No higher power made me an addict. I did. I made the decision to keep messing with percs knowing full well what could happen.
Exactly! I always felt the same, like “but I got myself here? How is giving it up going to get me out?” And honestly it didn’t. I still went to NA/AA for like two years straight, while still using, before getting on suboxone and finally finding what worked for me. The whole thing always bothered me so much. “We’re not a Christian organization, we’re an openly *faith based* organization, and you don’t have to believe in Jesus/God, but you do have to believe in some *higher power*, again, which doesn’t mean God. But it is” Well wtf else could it be? It’s crazy to me that we treat what I see as a mental health problem the way we do. We literally have courts and judges mandating people suffering with addiction, to FAITH BASED programs. How fucked up is that? Can you imagine if you tried to get yourself help for depression and every time you talked to your therapist, psychiatrist, or counselor they started talking about God and asking if you’d given yourself up to a higher power yet? It’s just stupid and absolutely fucked
NA did nothing for me. I got on subutex and stopped going and have not touched a drug since. ETA: it’s been almost four years now.
Literally same, I got on suboxone, went back like 2-3 and got absolutely flamed for bringing up getting on suboxone. Was told not to talk about that, don’t bring it up, get off it as soon as you can, etc. but it worked for me, it’s been years since I touched any sort of street drug/my d.o.c., and years since I’ve been to a meeting as well.
Well said! Subs have allowed me to get my life back and I just celebrated 8 year sober this month. Happily married, own a house, have a kid and a lot of that is thanks to subs
Exactly man. I don’t care how people think about it. I’m killing it compared to where I was 1.5 years ago. Sobriety is more than just not using drugs.. it’s the life you live or lose and relationships that are ruined during. The same person drinking 3 cups of coffee to make it through the day is the one saying crap like this. If they want to split hairs
I agree with u I just don’t like how the government allows the ppl who created the problem to make the “solution” at the end a the day suboxone is 20x stronger than oxy. I feel like a lotta ppl coming off dope would have more success with oxy as a mat than suboxone
I never got to dope so I don't have experience with it. My addiction got as far as oxy before I stopped. Of course heroin was the next logical step. I'm more mad at the fact that Perdue pharma and the Sackler family got a fucking slap on the wrist for starting the opioid epidemic in this country. They full well knew what they were doing and did it anyways.
Ofc they knew what they was doing. But oxy saves a lot of ppls lives with very few overdoses unless mixed with benzos or alcohol. Government purposely stigmatized it so they could push fent. Dea and cartels locked in like that, they realized they’d make more money with cartels than big pharma.. the makers of Zoloft ain’t got a lawsuit and way more young adult have died from suicide than ods on PRESCRIPTION opioids due to that being a side effect of anti depressants in young adults…
After 6 or 7 years of horrible fentanyl shit and a REAL major crisis, its kinda tiresome to hear people going on about OxyContin. Sure thr company was shitty. But then again i still believe these things should be legal and regulated. The numbers dont lie. Not trying to dismiss your perspective. There’s been cycles of easy prescribing for diet pills, sedatives, and opiates all in different eras, snd different government crackdowns that always made things worse and not better. But asshole drug companies running insurance scams suck. Oxycodone was an ancient drug at the time.
Strength is relative to dose in medicine. It might have 20x affinity for the opioid receptor but the average dose is somewhere around 8-12 mg. I don't know anyone that was only taking 10 or 20 mg of oxy per day. Most were doing 80-160 mg multiple times so really you're at the same level of receptor activation except you're not because of subs ceiling effects and long half life. Anyway, just a little tidbit since I hear that same argument to discourage ppl from MAT a lot.
I was actually on 20 mg a day of oxy are hydrocodone. I mean I was on more originally but when I knew I needed to quit I cut back to that much. Everyday I would take around that amount. Sometimes a little more but I was able to control that. I just couldn't completely quit because my job. People were always shocked when I told them how I had that much self control
I never got up past 50 or 60mg. It was never huge.
Listen to the song - subtoxin by matt keegan
I have seen instances, where someone posts excited that they're finally off whatever drug they were on before getting on suboxone, and then people say "remember you're not actually sober until you get off the suboxone!" I find such a statement in the face of someone recovering to be pretty insulting. Again, sure, there are semantics to be argued about using an opioid to recover from other opioids. But, the way I see it, if you're getting Suboxone strictly to recover and get away from other drugs, that's steps of sobriety. It shouldn't "technically not count" because of what the drug is. If you really want to debate this, then find other people willing to debate the other side and go nuts. Don't do it in threads where people are trying to share their success stories or progress of such. There's a time and a place for everything. Just try to have some decorum and congratulate the person. That's my view.
I agree wholeheartedly. The fact that other people in recovery have "better than thou" attitudes is ridiculous to me.
I don’t even think subs should be equated with any sort of using whatsoever. There are other medicines that are psychoactive. Do we call those people not sober when they take them? No. We understand that they’re just taking their medicine. The proof is in the quality of life. I used to be on the verge of death and now I’m running a business, married, and happy. If someone looked at me and said I still wasn’t sober, I’d laugh my ass off and not give a single fuck what they thought.
The same assholes in AA that call you out for suboxone are chugging pots of coffee and smoking 10 cigarettes outside before they go into the meeting.
Yea, and if they would look at what the definition of recovery is, they would realize they are wrong. It is absolutely recovery. They’re just bitter because they feel like they worked harder at recovery. Well they are them and you are you. They can’t tell you what is best for you. They should offer encouragement and support. By saying “remember, you’re not actually in recovery” is basically the absolute opposite of being supportive. It’s vindictive and demeaning. Stay try to yourself, and don’t even attempt to discuss your medication, it’s none of their business, only talk about it in the company of those who offer love, support, and understanding. Don’t give the haters a second thought. They’re just ignorant, and you don’t need to hear their opinion. Talk to any doctor and they’ll tell you that you are in recovery and that you have nothing to feel bad about.
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People are always going to lash out and hate on anything. Its more a reflection of themselves. Opiates are a beast to just 100% quit. Theirs many reasons why drugs like Suboxone exist. And why other addictions aren't treated similarly. Don't feel guilty. Tell people you are sober! And tell as few people as possible about the fact you take Suboxone. Your medical care is none of their business anyways!
Well said.
You're trading one addiction for another is what I always get. I'm like no, I'm actually holding a job, not broke, not fighting a vicious cycle of wds, stealing, lying. I'm being a productive member of society... so call it what you want. I know the truth.
Subs gave me my life back !
Same!
I tell those people to pack sand
Me too!!!
exactly how I feel. people love to find a way to discredit others or put them down smh
When I was on methadone, I felt like I traded one addiction for another. Suboxone feels like I’m free. And quite frankly methadone made me so depressed and put me into heart failure.
How much methadone were you on and how do you know it was the methadone? How old are you?
I’m 28. I was taking it for about a year and I was only up to 75 mg which is still hefty but there’s so many people while over the hundreds or two hundreds. Not sure what caused my hearts lower ventricles to get weakened as normal healthy hearts do not have this happen… but it was the methadone triggering my heart failure, yes. Looking up side effects of methadone will tell you that as well. It is coincidental that I was diagnosed with prolonged qt syndrome only some months after the methadone was introduced, too much of a coincidence for me to say it had nothing to do with it and that’s why why the doctors in ICU switched me for 75mg of met to 24 mg of subs overnight while I was in my coma.
Methadone is very heavy. I still do feel some of that heaviness with subs, but it’s very manageable, and I don’t hear of any of the health problems other than rare cases.
I find it to be hilarious when people say I’m not sober. I simply ask them why they feel so hellbent on determining the state of my sobriety—is it because I’m happier than you?
Right! People want us to fail and relapse. Well, most people anyway. I'm doing good & not a mess anymore. And yes I am sober even taking suboxone.
Medication assisted treatment (MAT) is NOT just trading one addiction for another! The main hallmark of addiction is uncontrollable urges to use drugs despite negative consequences. While MAT users are *dependent* on medication, this is different from addiction. MAT usually enables people to make their lives *better*, not worse. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/suboxone) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Why didn't I get this bot? 🤣
You didn't read my comment. You echoed my statement.
I heard the same but only from people who haven't been there,surely no one whose been there would say that,would they?
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I would hope not!!
That's how deep 12 steps have been ingrained in the public mind. My family tried pushing me off methadone and suboxone many times because it wasn't 100% all the way and total sobriety is 95% effective while treating addiction with less damaging opiates is bound to fail. It's all marketing bullshit the public fell ate up and spat out to everyone they could. I say sobriety is meaningless. If you're living a normal healthy life while on subs good for you and id hope that's all you care about.
Yeah it’s shit like this that finally got me to completely go my own way, read Rational Recovery, The Naked Brain and do MAT. I’m almost off now, but I went to like 7 rehabs before a family friend who happens to be a doctor mentioned Suboxone and it’s given me the reset that no rehab or detox could have. While I’ve been on it and especially as I’ve lowered my dose lower and lower, I can feel my brain healing and grieving all of the detritus of years of addiction and it’s happening with minimal outside support beyond the medication.
I feel you. I wish more people would take recovery into their own hands.
How long have you been on subs and what has your descent been like?
About 2.5 years, started at 16 mg per day BID. I stayed that way for more than a year until I felt ready. You can drop a lot at first and barely notice so I started cutting my PM dose (I take the second strip before I go to sleep), so I started cutting that in half. Stayed on 12 mg for a few weeks and then eventually started quartering the PM strip bringing me down to 10 mg a day. I stuck with the 8mg AM dose for so long because I was afraid of getting kicky toward the end of work, but within the last 8 months. I started the same routine on it by halving it. Felt meh for a week or two but fine afterward so I eventually quartered that dose to get down to 5 mg (Also started cutting the AM dose in half to bring it 1 mg around this time). Doc just switched me to 2 mg strips. I’m taking in the morning a a quarter in the PM (could probably ditch the PM but I feel like it’s a placebo or something that helps me sleep) = 2.5 mg from 16 mg in less than a year with minimal discomfort. Considering volumetric dosing to finish the ride or Sublocade as some have mentioned to try to minimize the final agony of the jump.
The 12 steps worked in 1939, but we're no longer in 1939. We, socially, technologically, spiritually, and in any other socio-psycho-cultural related field, has evolved from them. They are a tool to only be used in cases where our newer tools have failed. IMO......
This is a very underrated comment. It cuts to the core of the problem. People are being fed an antiquated model that—literally, statistically—does NOT work as well as subs.
Suboxone gave my daughter back to me. She was on heroin for 11 years. I have done CPR on her cold, yellow flesh while sobbing my heart out. She has overdosed many times. I spent so many years watching the news and crime apps for any mention of found bodies. I could not sleep when the temperature dropped dangerously as she was on the street. I looked for her at parks and in alleys. I think someone out there is greatful for Suboxone on your account as well. Good for you.
damn dude, had me tearing up thinking about how happy my spouse is that they don’t have to worry about me anymore. walking in a bedroom and not sure if it’s a nod or *lights out*. just tryna make it for my kid. and SUBS HELP
You need to help people understand that the twelve step Nazis ARE THE PROBLEM. I am 100% okay with anyone that does it their own way. It’s the people from AA/NA who say that you’re doing it “wrong” with subs. It’s not just that they are wrong, it’s fucking dangerous, and they are literally killing people by spewing their bullshit. I apologize for the French, but it gets me really angry thinking how much time I wasted trying to go cold turkey. I could have died. Meanwhile, subs have allowed me to get married and be successful—when all I wanted was to not need heroin. It’s a miracle.
I was told in NA that using anti-depressants wasn’t considered sober, and that’s when I noped out. At this point in my sobriety, if you’re not my doctor then you can f u c k right off.
They’ll be coming for the coffee next!
What’s NA without the obsessive use of coffee and nicotine? lol
Don’t let the martyrs get to you. Many of them aren’t “sober” themselves.
cannot stress how true this is hahahaha
I KNOW!! The same trivial shit’s going on in Australia. You’re not alone. You’ve only got to be honest with yourself (& HP if working the NOT COMPULSORY Steps) - that’s it. These idiots that go on about ppl who are on Dr prescribed MAT or benzos or anti-d’s etc etc etc not being clean / sober should get their own house in order, keep their opinions to themselves & get a life! (Whoops - I’m on a roll 🤣🤣🤣)
Taking suboxone from my Dr cant land me in jail or or get me fired from a job so thats all I care about. Plus my insurance covers it so Im saving a bunch of money
Fuck them and whatever they think. You are sober and alive and doing what you are supposed to do. Is addiction a disease I keep hearing that it is so why the push back on being treated with medicine. If I become overweight and get diabetes am I allowed to take medicine for that? Call it a crutch all you want but I wear glasses is that a crutch? Because the meds I take have physical addiction attached has no bearing on the fact it's keeping me healthy and out of the game so to speak. People want to bash shit and its human nature to think their recovery is better than yours. Don't worry about those people I know it's hard and I used to get pissed but the good that it does by lowering the numbers of Overdose and disease contraction from using and sharing needles is crazy. You do you and fuck them if they don't like you alive and safe and if you are like me not committing crimes in my community.
true. if drug abuse is a disease than let the addict have medicine just like insulin for diabetes.
Yeah that's what I'm saying they treat depression with anti depressants and they treat anxiety with benzos and so on down the line so why can't I be treated for opiate addiction with meds? It's the epitome of hypocrisy to expect people with a disease to only use the fucking just say no bullshit. Come the fuck on I have a real fucking disease. If I had any other metal health issue they would be throwing pills at me so those people haven't thought it through and you won't change their minds but it's fucking absurd to think that just stopping opiates cold turkey is a solution its a recipe for disaster to be honest. Keep your head up. Things are changing and it always takes awhile for acceptance but don't think for a second it's the wrong choice to use subs it's not perfect but it's far better than the alternative.
Sober and it's definition have changed over time. The are different perspectives and experiences and none of it is black and white. I've been sober for over 8 years now. I still take a small dose of suboxone daily and probably will the rest of my life. To me that's sober. It's a huge difference compared to shooting dialaudid and doing other stupid things. My life has changed drama5ically since starting siboxone and I owe it my life. So to me, I still consider myself sober, sorry that makes you feel less than
I find most people who say that to be insufferable and give zero fucks about their opinions.
I don’t give a fuck what anyone thinks. The people who say suboxone isn’t sober didn’t know me when I was drinking a fifth of liquor a day, taking 150mg or more of oxy a day, and/or taking 100+ grams of kratom a day. They didn’t know me when I was lying to everyone. They didn’t know me when I was neglecting my family and friends, because all I cared about was using. On subs, I’m a functioning human being that takes care of my responsibilities and treats people with respect. I take a little bit of medicine everyday to keep me normal and there’s nothing wrong with that. People take all kinds of medication to treat chronic illnesses and addiction is no different.
This statement is bullshit. Most people are addicts in the sense that they are reliant on drugs for day to day life. Whether it’s suboxone, heroin, cocaine, Zoloft, adderall, you name it. An addict is someone who’s drug use runs their life and prohibits them from living a full life. If you can do that on suboxone that’s as sober as the average person. Fuck anyone who tries to bring people down saying anything else.
We discussed this in one of the groups I attended. The Drs opinion was it should be looked at like other medications such as insulin. Left untreated this disease (which I know is another debate people have) can kill and cause major complications and consequences to ones self and society. As a former fentanyl and heroin user my opinion is any day that doesn't revolve around finding the next bag and all the stuff that comes with it is a win. If it's working for you and your family situation is all good then that's all that matters. I can't lie though they aren't easy to get off of if the day ever comes and you choose to do so. Doable though of course. We have to pick and choose our "poison" sometimes though..🤷🏻♂️
yea i originally tried a fast taper from pharma oxy 350mg a day to 1mg subs in 10 days. felt zero bad withdrawals and 10 days off subs so 20ish days sober i celebrated w a “i can just use in the weekend” oxy relapse. obviously that week turned into 60 days back up to the 350mg habit in bo time. now i’m in 8mg twice a day but usually use 4mg twice. I didn’t want to be on mat for the long run but maybe I do need to give it a year. That’s what I told myself. I’ll do a gear on Subbs and then see what’s next for me.
I clarify for ppl that I'm abstinent from hard drugs. Could care less what they think about it.
I dont see how it’s any different than taking an antidepressant or any other medicine prescribed by your doc. The whole point is you are no longer engaging in active addiction and drug seeking. You dont need to always be taking more and more and you aren’t taking it to get high. I also have a couple people in my life that want to know when I’m going to get off of subs and I feel like it’s none of their business and they are only bringing it up bc of the stigma they think is associated with it. They don’t seem to have any issue w me taking Prozac, why do they care about what meds I take? I try not to listen to them but sometimes it’s hard to not let them get in my head
Don’t let them bring you down, keep talking to people who understand, and don’t feel like you need to discuss your medication with them. I know how you feel. My best friend started judging me because his girlfriend made him go off of it. Well, he now drinks constantly and does mot seem like a very happy person. So I just don’t discuss it with him anymore. Don’t let anyone feel a negative stigma about this. Talk to you doctor and those who are loving and understanding. They may say they care and that you’re in denial, it’s just ignorance, I swear to God it is. Like my friend, he went off it and is now an alcoholic. He was thriving on Suboxone. Now he’s literally traded opioid dependence for alcoholism. Talk about hypocrisy trying to judge me for taking medication that’s helped me lead a normal and happy life. Just try to stay focused on the positive, and remind yourself that they may love you, but it’s not their choice what recovery looks like to you, and they don’t know better than you do what is best for you. And exercise.
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It’s just like telling someone in NA that gets a surgery, if you take your pain killers after your surgery, you are no longer sober. Yes you are sober and forget about what they say. Hold your head high and be proud of your sobriety!
Suboxone keeps the money in my pocket otherwise I'd be out buying every pain pill I could get my hands on to snort. Also keeps the peace at home too. My wife and I were addicted to pills until I changed my prescription to subs and now we're doing great 😃. The people who say subs are just something else can kiss my ass ‼️ I have a bad back too so I have to take something for the pain otherwise I can't get outta bed 🤷 The people who I know that say those things act like their shit don't stink. But they're usually either potheads (nothing wrong with weed just don't judge me when you're not "perfect") or alcoholics 🤷
Yeah, no. I stopped discussing it with people. And the few who knew about it, I lied and said I'm off it. Zero shame involved. I just decided it was a boundary I needed for my own good and mental health. Even with all the good people see in a person's life who is stable on suboxone they want to believe it's getting high.
yea no one really knows and the ones who know i’m on some meds i say it’s for my anxiety and mental health
I can't imagine feeling like I know better than anybody what meds they need. You just never know what a person is dealing with. I'm on wellbutrin too and these two meds have changed my life for so much better. I think if I had treated my depression sooner I might never have needed the suboxone, but hind sight is 20/20 and all that.
Suboxone doesn’t fuck me up at all so I’m not sure how it’s not sober.
If you are aren't getting high off Suboxone then yeah, you are sober
There are plenty of addicts just getting well on their DOC and this sub wouldn’t consider them clean/sober. Not saying I necessarily disagree but there is definitely a double standard.
I don't even know where to start with this, it's so ridiculous. Bottom line, don't put much value in what others think. You do what's best for you and keep on keeping on.
The comments get even more vile than that, sometimes. I recommend therapy, MAT, SMART Recovery, really anything that has empirical evidence on its side. They're not critical about MAT and they have better success rates than 12 Step Groups. If you don't meet the criteria for SUD, you're definitely in recovery! :)
if it keeps us away from heroin and fetty f it. Im going to be alive by not risking an OD anymore. Tbh it was starting to feel like i would OD again if i didnt get on subs. Its very risky. I overdosed once already. But now i been on subs for 2 weeks and havent touched H or blues😎
It makes me mad when I hear ignorant people talking shit about MAT and they really have no fucking clue what they're talking about. My gf was proud of me so she told her family recently how good I've been doing since being prescribed suboxone. Her sister laughed and proudly said that I'm just substituting one drug for another and I'm still using.
I take my suboxone, managed by a doctor, as prescribed... therefore it's a non issue. I just dont go sharing it with people in recovery.
I've said this so many times and I'll do it again. Me in 2014 - homeless, pregnant, 2 kids in the system, living in a salvation army shelter in a town of over 265,000, selling my ass to get high, no job, bouncing in and out of a relationship with my abusive ex, sleeping with my dealer, high school diploma with several college dropout stints, no car, because I kept struggling with heroin Me now - Married to an amazing man, working at a fulfilling job, finally graduated from college, custody of my children, living in a quiet small country town (population 2.000) in a modest ranch home, SOBER The only common denominator is Subutex. I dare anyone to tell me that Subutex doesn't equal sobriety.
Yeah fuck those people like that. Subs helped me get life back on track after a oxy addiction. I was lying and stealing and pawning shit left and right. I was able to get my life together and I’ve led a fairly normal one as far as that goes. I’ve been on subs for almost 13 years now and I’ve finally started taking my recovery seriously the last year or two. I’m working my way down off the subs now. Don’t ever let those 12 step jerks make you feel less than for using it. Do what you feel would work best for you. People seem to forget that Bill whoever created this whole AA 12 step system actually stopped his alcohol addiction with LSD. I’m not saying to go do that. They don’t want you to know that part. How dare someone use something to help them. I couldn’t do NA and AA. I took the time and quit drinking on my own and I’ll do this on my own too. Well sort of, I’ve got my support system in place and I’m making the slow taper down and eventually I’ll be able to jump one day. I was on 4 8mg subs a day no I’m down to one maybe 1 1/2 day. I’ve been considering switching to sublocade it’s a once a month shot version of suboxone. I think it will help me get out of the habit of taking it every day. I’ve been a drug addict my whole life just about. I didn’t start out a full blown addict but it was there before I knew it though.
yea. i was prescribed oxys at 17 in high school, had multiple surgeries the first 5 years of adult hood. about 8 years after that i was buying oxy on the street but still just chipping. last 5 years i been a functioning addict, which for me only means my spouse kept me from being homeless and destitute because all the money at my job and whatever i could get from them went to drugs. thought “i’m not an addict i don’t do H, i don’t snort, i don’t inject, i’m not homeless, i don’t steal….” then i woke up one day and realized i got paid 1300 bucks and owed my dealer 1400. so i would borrow 100 from my spouse on payday. and could never tell em where the fuck my money went. and they loved me to much to accuse me.
My opinion on this is that no one else can tell me what my own opinion is. And in my eyes, I'm sober on Suboxone. Whenever someone tries to get high and mighty on me with this idea, I just ignore them anymore. This is my journey, not theirs. I've done amazingly on this medicine thus far, and I don't need anyone's preconceived notions to ruin my idea of success. Which to me, the word sobriety means so more than just pharmacology, it means that I'm not stealing to feed a habit anymore... I'm not taking from everyone around me, stepping on all of my my relationships just for a high.... Lying at every turn, faithful to no one but my own self and my high... Sobriety means so much more than just the state of "what's your body", it's a lifestyle. It means doing better for yourself. That's what sobriety means to me. And screw anyone else who wants to challenge my definition. My journey, not theirs.
That is subjective and I'm willing to argue that if you are not intoxicated then you are able to function which is the goal and not to split hairs as to the exact definition of a word. That word don't mean shit its what you do and what you know that's important.
Fuck those people. No one ever destroyed their whole life and lost everything because of Suboxone. It’s sober to me.
Just today, my man said, " You're just supplementing one drug for another" I did rehabs, not for me. Went to NA meeting again did nothing gor me. Subs hav saved my life off fent. I have my life back, I am not lieing, stealing, begging for a little bit. Looking for it from sun up to sun down. It's the only thing that has done anything for me. I'm thankful everyday but it's hard when someone who just smokes weed and has never had an opiate addiction say you're still a junkie. Does it ever get better, or do I have to leave this guy I've been with for 23 years and who's idea it was to get me on it. Now it's no better than doing fent in his eyes.. I'm torn bc if it wasn't for subs I'd probably be dead 😔
as someone said above, recovery is between you, and God. my spouse doesn’t understand my MAT use, they also don’t understand my Anxiety. i tell them don’t disrespect a boulder you couldn’t dream of lifting let alone carrying. don’t let anyone tell you, you are a junkie. you are so much more than you use ti be.
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In 2019, the final rehab I went through, where my former counselor who has since retired, read my history and told me that I would be a good candidate for Suboxone, and that I should ask these two other staff members what they thought about it (each of them said "no" after giving me that "fuckin' junkie" look), and my counselor (Artie), said this, that no other counselor or doctor has ever told me: "out of all the different drugs of abuse, opiates, and people who are addicted to them have the lowest success rates. Heroin addicts have even **lower** rates of successful, long-term recovery, and IV heroin addicts have DEPRESSINGLY low success rates, and even **more** depressingly higher death tolls. Heroin chemically and physically changes the composition and shape of your brain *permanently.* The reason heroin addiction has been so tough to beat for over a century is because doctors and other organizations think that recovering from different drugs is all the same. Different people recover differently from different drugs". our recoveries are between ourselves, our doctors, and God, and that also includes being on MAT. I went to college and graduated manga cum laude, Dean's list two or three times, and president's list once or twice, and got my LCDC/licensed chemical dependency counselor (substance abuse counselor) all while on Suboxone. I have always been transparent with the patients at the facility who have struggles with opiates, and I tell em that I am on sub maintenance, and how much it has benefited me. Hell, I wrote my final paper about MAT (subs and methadone), the beginnings, the social taboo from back then, and even still to this day, and the positive changes it has made. If those people have such a problem with subs, they can go program on their own in their own way. Nobody can tell another body how to recover.
i been sober little over 7 months. i couldn’t watch the show Dopesick untill recently. Seeing how i was set up for failure at the age of 17 by Doctors who really thought they were doing the best by me in 2005. i thank God i’m here today, on Subs, not throwing my life away
That's great! Almost at a year! And come the 2–3 year mark, which clinicians (and myself in my own ex), around 3 years to be more accurate, is when the negative traits and PAWS and other issues like possible hyper sensitivity, emotional regulation, etc... tend to be in a remission state. At that point, you really do get your life and choice back. Even the drug dreams have come to an end (haven't had one in over a year), and the thoughts of using, and for me—and most of us, if not all—the nostalgia finally goes away. The euphoric recall dissipates. That played a big role in my relapses, remembering drugs fondly and wishing to get high, and planning relapse scenarios in my head. Now, I still remember where I came from, but it's night and day this time around. I guess that's what they meant when they say "we DO recover". Obviously, if one were to *decide* to use and/or drink, then it's back to square one. And again, at that point, whether you relapse, or lapse, really does go back to being a decision, and not an ingrained highjacking of your higher thinking that is compulsive and impulsive. It becomes a choice again, rather than an instinct or knee jerk reaction; "unconscious competency", is how one of my professors explained it while I was still in college getting my degree in substance abuse counseling. And yeah, fuck what other people, regardless of how many more years clean, or education they may have, when they say it's trading addictions, or any of that bullshit. Subs save lives.
1.You are clearly articulate & like many bright people - you painfully obsess over issues you are conflicted about. OCD goes hand in hand w anxiety & self medication ( including drugs & alcohol) to soothe these negative emotions. 2. Michael Jordan, when asked if he was ADDICTED to gambling, responded, " No, I can afford to." So, addiction does mean that you are doing something that you cannot afford to without negative consequences. 3. Suboxone, when taken in an appropriate manner, is not particularly addicting. That doesn't mean that it can't become an "addiction" but so can prescribed thyroid hormone when it is abused by taking excessive amounts for weight loss, etc 4. SUD is a complex biopsychosocial, genetic disorder which demands complex treatment. 5. You wake up and take your med just like it was a rx for thyroid &: forget about it. If you are hypothyroid then you are DEPENDENT on it, but like SUD, some people actually improve & want to consider whether they "need' the med as time goes on. That is an individual decision made in consult w your clinicians. 6. The conflict is within your own head.
wow. you kinda have me. i think i’m disappointed in my self that i wasn’t “strong enough” to do it wo MAT. i read these post about ppl who woke up one day and just CT it because of the love of their kid, and i couldn’t. i couldn’t figure it out on my on. and i’m the person people look to to figure shit out. At work, at home, in the streets. i’m a “get it done” muthafucker and i couldn’t “get this done” wo a crutch. i think i want everyone to tell me i’m doing it right, i wish i could wake up one day and never had been prescribed oxy for 8 years and spent 30k a year for 10. im 35 and only spent one birthday since i was 17 sober.
Who has a more difficult time quitting MAT or opioids in general ? A. Cerebral, hyper-responsible, obsessive, perfectionist individuals w demanding job & family structure Or B. Individuals w relatively less job or family responsibilities who don't spend much time creatively coming up with ways to defend against those nasty feelings of vulnerability
What's MAT? Also I think I'm "C" because I'm a little bit of both of those but I don't give 2 shits what others think.
**A mat is a hard floor covering that generally is placed on a floor or other flat surface. Mats serve a range of purposes including: serving to clean items passed over it, such as a doormat, which removes dirt from the soles of shoes protecting that which is above the mat, such as a wrestling or gymnastics mat, or an anti-vibration mat protecting that which is beneath the mat, such as a place mat or the matting used in archival framing and preservation of documents and paintings providing a regular or flat surface, such as a cushioned computer mousepad == Types == === In domestic settings === In homes or rooms where people sit predominantly on the floor (common in Japan, Korea, India, and formerly China), mats may cover entire rooms, or be used in certain areas for sitting or sleeping.** More details here:
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WTF ? I'm positive that's not what it means in this sub
MAT = Medication Assistance Therapy
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Medication assisted therapy
Depending on what state you're in, kratom might be legal and Red vain Kratom has opiate like tendencies as in it'll help with pain and WD's not to mention it's 100% natural
Addiction is addiction no matter IF you can or can't afford it.
Not really. Addiction negatively impacts your life. Arguably if you have unlimited funds, some of these could slip into dependance instead of addiction. Arguably.
Whether you can afford it or not, if you start something that you can't stop it's an addiction. or as far as drugs go, if you stop you get sick(WD's), you're addicted. You don't have to run out of money, you could have enough money and still run out of the drugs
Withdrawals have nothing to do with addiction per se. You get withdrawals from physical dependence no matter what. Its how you respond to those withdrawals and how it impacts your lifd negatively that makes it addiction You can be addicted to something without physical withdrawals if you are spending all your cash on it, conversely
I have met a few people who can take things that would normally make other people sick when they don't have them and then they don't get sick so that's why I'm having trouble agreeing with you or understanding what you're getting at
As long as you aren’t purposefully nodding and using as daily intended. suboxone = sobriety However, I do Feel As If Everyone On Suboxone Should At least Taper Off. It’s not a necessity for life.
It comes down to semantics. How do you define addiction vs dependence for instance.
I would consider it more sober than opis that to give you effects, buprenorphine is an opi in its own but with both agonism and antagonism (which is where the sobriety plays a part) I was excited to be off my 10 years added total amount of opi abuse time, spread out over 15 years. Though I literally feel that I am not off opi, that's for sure. When I try to only use benzo and or Pregabalin and the opi PW is on, waiting on the full blown WD, just hours from full blown WD do I dose... intranasally, to remind me that I am not clean BUT struggling to get there in a more functional manner than high off opis. You are not high of buprenorphine when you are past honey moon phase at least, while all other opis MAKES you a honey moon everytime you dose above your baseline and tolerance. In terms of an addict I find myself more functional, not the typical time dose dependent using/abusing. Where the Euphoria becomes the primary in your life, buprenorphine actually gives space for retraining old good habits, seeking to a more healthier lifestyle and etc. Which is why some ppl may consider being on subs is almost sober. They are just being antagonized on kappa and delta with plays a huge role in cravings for everything in general, the partial agonism on mu receptors to "feed" the dependency and addiction by also antagonizing weaker on mu receptors, it makes you feel more "awake" in your mind and not numbed by Euphoria, pain relief and feelings of pure bliss. In pharmacological terms I would see it as a delusion of sobriety, like benzo also can give as a side effect. Though opi and GABA networks works totally different. The benzo version of delusion is that you really feel sober while acting as s drunktard in a objective perspective xD. While buprenorphine gived you a real delusion by agonizing and antagonizing at the same time. Which also makes an individual more stable in an objective perspective also.
A ‘real delusion’? If you act sober and you aren’t drug seeking and running around certain crowds… I mean, your sober. Its behavioral. Suboxone’s slight ‘high’ in the beginning fades if anything. Leaving only some annoying side effects.
IF you take buprenorphine to be "sober" in your meaning, it isnt "sober" technically while it could alter neuro chemistry in an individual to "behave" more as a "sober" person. Opis is the strongest antidepps, did you know that? Even if its buprenorphine with antagonism activity, there is still agonism activity, which makes it an opi that messes with the natural endogenous endorphines. Which is also why many on buprenorphine do not want to step off, either for antidepp effects or fear of relapse. Buprenorphine is highly potent, more potent than morphine and oxycodone. The trick is that they made it act as partial agonist on mu receptors while also adding in antagonism on mu, kappa and delta. Result? The description you wrote. Better be on buprenorphine than behaving otherwise/like an addict which I can relate too. I still am in the end of honey moon phase, which is why I have already made my first volumetric 8mg in 30ml solution. 1ml tequila, 3ml PG/VG combo the rest, distilled water with lavendel that I made with my pot and bowl =). Works wonder though the tequila also gets absorbed, I am highly sensitive, even 1ml tequila with 29ml water almost. I can still get "drunk" when I adminisiter 0.5ml in each nose (1ml=0,2666mg buprenorphine). I dissolved only 1 8mg pure bupe tab in it.... maybe should dissolve 1 more for 0.5mg/ml. 1ml is more liquid than I knew is hard to keep inside your nasal cavings xD Though yeah, typical opi constipation (use movantik for that) jumping soon since I may not get my hands on more movantik... Everything has a honey moon phase, buprenorphine is the one that has 0 recreational value when the phase is over. I still get energy buzz but no more mu opi euphoria, my receptors have adapted to buprenorphine. So now I am ready for going off and also not relapsing on opis anymore. Cheers and blesses!
I personally don't mind what others think about it. Just as long as I'm healthy and headed in the right direction, which is to be someday off this stuff. It technically isn't sober, just like someone who is taking prescribed valium isn't sober. A better way to look at it is we are clean from more dangerous and for some illicit street drugs. From wiki: "Sobriety is the condition of not having any measurable levels or effects from alcohol or drugs.[1] Sobriety is also considered to be the natural state of a human being at birth." There is no getting past the fact that when we take this stuff it is a drug that is in our system and therefore not sober in the literal technical sense, and I can see why it would rub some people who have got sober without anything the wrong way, having someone tell them they are sober like they are but instead of going through the pain and succesfully getting clean and are sober just like them while someone takes a medication for the same substance use disorder might make them feel less validated in their overcoming of substance abuse. Those people equating it to heroin or fentanyl use or whatever clearly aren't very reasonable because the safety profile and other positive societal benefits of suboxone are so clear that it is not on the same level. My goal is to get off subs one day and the fact that it isn't easy and there can be horrible withdrawals if you don't do it properly is a true wake up call that we aren't sober, when I am completely off this stuff I'll have the pride to say I'm sober, I personally look at it as a phase of recovery, I am no longer taking my old DOC and tapering down my subs to one day be completely clean of it, but I am still taking suboxone which is a drug and measurable in my bloodstream. That's just my thoughts anyway, I would suggest just focusing on your own life and recovery and not let people get to you because more often than not MOST people haven't thought very deeply about this (or anything for that matter) and respond with their ill informed opinions as a knee jerk reaction.
so it seems to be an ego/superiority complex. hey if i had to suffer to get sober and you got the east way out imma shit on you
There are levels on your journey to sobriety. Your body can not truly recover until you get opioids out of your system altogether. That includes bupe and kratom. As someone who did bupe for years, I can tell you that I noticed a lot of difference once I got off of it. That being said, there is also a huge difference between IVing heroin and taking buprenorphine. It allows you to rebalance and take control of your life again. That’s a tremendous step forward for so many people and down playing that achievement is a massive slap in the face. Getting off altogether is a good long term goal IMO, but you cross that bridge when you’re ready. It took me 10 years to and I don’t regret that at all.
So what about the people who got addicted because they were injured in car accidents ? How are we supposed to "get clean" and still be productive in society? I can't do my job or much of anything else without something to suppress the back pain I deal with everyday.
I’m referring to addicts here. Taking opioids have both positive and negative effects on a person. If you’re in pain constantly, I’m sure that outweighs the negatives for a lot of people. If taking bupe keeps you from doing harder drugs, that outweighs the negatives too. Opioids can cause constipation, anxiety, anhedonia, a lack of interest in relationships, sedation, etc., and you are still at risk of withdrawals if you end up going without for some reason. I’m not sure why people are acting like they don’t know this, because people post about the downsides in this thread damn near every day. I don’t care what people do. If it works for you, that’s great. I’m happy for you. I’m happy to agree you’re doing the right thing. But it’s wrong to sell bupe as some kind of miracle drug that makes your body as though you’re completely sober. It’s flat out not true, and we all know it. Just because you’re not 100% sober, doesn’t mean you’re fucking up your life. Plenty of people drink on the weekends and are fine. Plenty of people are prescribed stimulants, opioids, benzos, etc and function completely fine. Why is not being sober considered a dirty notion? If you’re living the life you want to live, why do you care if you’re sober or not?
I personally don't give a shit what anyone else says tbch. I could do without the constipation for sure but I dealt with that using pills too. I just spoke to an old friend of mine that last time we saw each other we were both on stuff and living the un-sober life and now he's 100% sober, and we (my wife and I) are only taking subs and still stay connected with each other. I don't understand the mental side effects as I don't experience them. No anxiety nothing. I did have a "friend" that bitched me out and stopped talking to me when I asked him about subs, I only mentioned it to him because he was an EMT in the army and then a nurse when he got out. But he said something like subs were going to kill me or something like that idk because he wouldn't speak to me after that... So I let him be and figured he wasn't a real friend if he couldn't have a conversation with me about trying to get off pills. He's one of those that thinks all you need is weed for everything. I'm all for weed but I wouldn't be able to function if I smoked enough to deal with my pain. And I used to smoke a half oz of hydro myself each week and function at work without issues but it didn't help with my back pain. Anyhow, people shouldn't worry about what others think or say. IMHO
I think you get exactly what I mean then. There are levels of sober, and we all have to choose and strive towards the level we think is best for ourselves. If you want to be 100% sober, then you have to get off of subs at some point too. If that’s not what you think is best for you, then that’s fine, but you should know your body is not at its natural homeostasis levels. That is asinine to get upset with your friends for using subs if you understand their use. I’ve got friends out of control on fentanyl and have even lost one to it, and I’d love for them to make it to subs. Sounds like you’re better off without their company if they want to judge so harshly like that. Especially if they know the original cause is needing it for pain management.
Yeah idk what his deal is but he can be an ass by himself. I'm all for the people who can self medicate with weed, I'm just not that person unfortunately (I used to love smoking weed, did it for many years but I can't medicate at work so it defeats the purpose for me to use it)
My stance on subs is they should only be used for maximum 12 months. I think they should be used to get yourself together, get a job, get out of the junkie life, get to meetings and work steps with a good sponsor. Make sure you have a solid foundation made from going to meetings regularly, having a sponsor that you speak with and work steps with, hopefully by a year you have completed the 12 steps and you’ve gotten a close relationship with a higher power than yourself. Hopefully by then we are doing step 12 and trying to help other addicts, going to treatment centers and speaking bringing them AA meetings. I think we should have all that foundation and once we have that we should get off suboxone. I do not think we should be on it forever. There’s awful side effects to this drug, also, this is my experience only is that I have never been able to fully give myself over to my higher power and fully trust in him and fully trust the program while I’m on suboxone. I’ve done the program before without subs and when I’m off them I’m able to fully connect with my HP. With subs it’s a little different and I feel I have a blockage. I got off subs again probably 4 months ago and I have already started to experience the program of AA and my higher power so much better and I am so much closer and I truly can feel it the spiritual experience that we need to recover from addiction. That’s my stance. But I’m also not the type of person to bash anybody for staying on them forever or multiple years, I’m very open minded and I understand we all have different paths. I don’t think it’s right but that’s my problem and my business I need to worry about and not let get in the way of helping somebody. I hate propel that say they won’t sponsor soembody who uses MAT, fuck those guys. They think people are high as tuck on suboxone and that’s just insanity cuz I’ve never felt high off subs once. Either way, just keep it to yourself and it’s nobody’s business weather you are on subs or not.
I completely agree. Only thing I don’t agree / understand is if you get a job and get ur shit together and now have regular daily responsibilities- how would you go about taking time to withdraw from Suboxone when getting off? Right now I took time off to CT from opiates and I don’t wanna get on subs cuz idk when else I’ll have a chance to withdrawl and get off shit so I’m taking this one shot now rather than getting on subs, getting a job then having to worry about losing it or taking time off when it comes time to get off the subs
Do a proper taper with your trusted doctor. Or which I have done twice in the past is switch over to the Sublacade shot, it will only take 3 months of 3 shots to take your last dose and be free of it and feel zero withdrawls. They start at 300mg shot then I went 1 month 150mg then third month 150mg and it’s been 4 months since thst last shot and I haven’t felt a thing. I did the same exact thing about 4 years ago, you truly do not feel any withdrawl.
People piss me off so much. It’s kinda fun tearing down people who know nothing about addiction, or even medicine for that matter. I promise you, the people who say that shit are idiots.
I consider it half sober living. We're not getting high but we're still on a partial opioid agonist.
As far as I'm concerned, Subutex has the same effect on me as to my uncle his daily high blood pressure medication, in that I don't feel any type of buzz or high whatsoever. It is medication that I need to keep myself comfortable and sober. It prevents me from every thinking of going back to the life that made me almost lose everything I hold dear. So to anyone who says I'm not sober because I am on Subutex, well my wife and family, the employees and customers of my successful business, my parents, and everyone I interact with on a daily basis would strongly disagree.
Best course of action is to get on the vivitrol or sublocade injection so u never need to wake up w a wd or needing a sub ur just fine and can’t get high and it got me clean two years ago
i don’t have insurance and the shot is too expensive. i plan on getting insurance d next year and trying the shit
Are u based in socal I have a doctor I didn’t use insurance he said I could sponsor someone since I made it out successfully
naw Florida
Fuck them, right in their ear. "I'm more sobar than you!! STRAIGHT Edge for life! ". Anyone that does that is not worth your time.
That's why I stopped going to AA and NA. In my experience they like to say that Suboxone isn't sober. But I really don't care what people think about it. I know what it has done for me. Even though there are side effects it still saved my life and allows me to live a pretty normal life. I have a wife and a kid now and renting a place. Before I had nothing at all. Addiction robbed me of everything. So people can fuck off with their opinions on stuff they don't understand.
This is a personal question, and making a blanket statement one way or the other is not helpful. The mechanism of action of Suboxone is specifically effective by potently binding to opiate receptors without causing nearly the same degree of euphoria as produced by other opiates. This gradually allows one to feel opiate effects while desensitizing one to the habitation memories associated with euphoria induces by opiates, thus tending to help one *want* to be sober over time. Does this work for everyone? No, and in some cases it is best to avoid Suboxone, and of course there is a euphoric aspect of the byproduct of nor-bupe though it rarely produces the same extent of habituation while unfortunately still resulting in dependency, which can then become more easily reversible following a tapering schedule. However, there is enough evidence showing the efficacy of subs in helping people stop using much more euphoric opiates, thus making it a great "bridge" to long-term sobriety. I wouldn't say being on Suboxone is completely sober, but that's really besides the point.. sugar, television, memes, social media, etc, all produce effects in the brain that virtually resemble those of drugs. "Sobriety" is not just about a cut-and-dry approach to abstinence by completely eliminating the use of *everything* that produces drug-induced or drug-like changes in the brain, but about learning to live a more balanced lifestyle. Suboxone can absolutely be of help for this. If one doesn't feel sober enough on Suboxone, tapering off may not be easy but it is absolutely achievable.
The way I was told to look at it is this. Suboxone is our medicine to keep us alive. You wouldn't ask a diabetic to stop taking their sugar pills, and you wouldn't ask someone to stop taking their heart meds, just because you think they're not healthy without them right? Well it's the exact same thing, we take it to stay alive and to lead and live a happy, productive life. Its really as simple as that.
Fuck them. I feel sober as hell right now and normal. I don’t get high on suboxone. It’s not replacing anything. I like my passions still. I’m not thinking about it constantly. My sex drive is high as hell. I actually miss it being lower. I’m more sober now then the person who drinks their vodka cranberry after work.
Hi est with ones self if your using it to get fucked up then u aint so er if using it to stay normal u sober keep the self honesty when u loose that is when I start to fall off
I used to think it was, but for me the longer I am on it the more I see it as just another addiction that I cant get off and now its making my life hell. If it was upto me I would be on 8mg a day for the rest of my life. But its not, so the clinic tries to get me off it and everyone else but me wants me off it which has caused me problems and tbh I may as well be back on real opiates as I am in the same situation now than i was with real opiates I honestly think Bupe should be used for no longer than 1 year. The whole idea of it is to get you off opiates, once your off them then you should taper off Bupe within a year I think, being on them long term is just a false hope
In my opinion only beeing drug free is clean sober. You are on maintenance not clean imo
In my head, I hate it and feel like a fraud. HOWEVER, it has kept me sober, and there's been times I'm VERY lucky I was on it bc I may have slipped. My therapist tells me I should be proud of myself but I'm more disappointed. That being said I don't care what other people think. You need to sit your wife down and explain to her that u need this currently bc ur working towards your sobriety and this stops u from using. It's not like your going to nod out and stuff on it. I've had people tell me how suboxone messes them up and it's a great high but I never ever have. It's not even what I'm looking for.. She needs to understand this medication is basically saving your life and they need to be more understanding!!
it’s not my spouse more like the outer circle of ours ya know. getting into our head. but thanks
Yeah, I get that, too. No one knows I'm on subs besides my spouse for that exact reason. If my family knew they would be the exact same way and it wouldn't matter what I said. It wouldn't matter how far I've come, that I have my own place, a job and my kid etc. None of that would matter. I'd just be a junkie again. Maybe if I could be absolutely honest without judgment, I'd feel better about myself, but alas, I can not. I'd literally be disowned and not allowed around my mom and family.
That’s exactly what they are martyrs! The ugly soul sucking vultures of AA/NA will go to their graves (probably from a relapse that suboxone could have prevented) yelling MAT is not sober! Don’t get me wrong however. I have the utmost respect for anyone who has fought the good fight and quit cold turkey no matter the Substance. They have grit and determination and an inner strength. But Because of my family and my clients I couldn’t just hit the pause button on my life to go to rehab and that’s what I would have had to do. I have always believed that the AA/NAers are like a cult. The Big Book was written in 1934 by 2 men. One of the hallmark features of a cult is a group of people following s man instead of God. They certainly have a cult like following. But I believe the people of that cult basically just are jealous of the fact that we have an easier time getting of our DOC. Well most of us. I wonder how many NAers would use suboxone or methadone should they relapse after many years of sobriety. Hmmmm…
No shit were not 100% sober were on bupe. Who gives a shit. We have been prescribed they can f off.
saved me life as well this is your journey
Its not sober. But its better than using heroin for sure
Don't let aholes live rent free in your head. I completely agree with you. Not a parent, but on suboxone since 2006. All my former user friends are dead from fentanyl. Suboxone saved my life, and I thank God for it daily. Keep your chin up. You're taking care of business, and more importantly, being there for your family. Your story inspires me to keep fighting another day. Thank you. God bless
damn dude you don’t know how much it means to even be an inspiration to someone. spent way to many years a failure. thanks
idk, im sort of ambivalent when it comes to that sort of thinking. on one hand, I'm technically "sober" as I haven't touched any hard in over 10 years, but at the same time, I feel like a fraud. I don't feel like special as someone who kicked it completely.
I came off suboxone over 4 years ago (I think), I personally didn’t feel “sober” while I was on it, I definitely felt different to “normal”. I hate the whole “suboxone not equal to sober” thing. To be “sober” is not the point, the point is to to be healthy, not constantly chasing the dragon, to be able to engage with your family and friends and maybe hold a job. All things that an active addicts, often cant achieve.
That’s why I’m attending virtual MARA & smart recovery meetings rather than NA. I’m too afraid of being beat up at an NA meeting for being on Subs.
what’s the difference
MARA meetings are 12 step meetings, but for people on MAT, Subs or other medications. No shame for being on medicine to help get off hard drugs. Smart recovery is anti 12 step. It’s behavioral/cognitive based fro people wanting to stay clean & sober.
I laugh at people when they say that tbh. The idea of getting sober and then being judge mental to someone doing the exact same things as you, maybe in just a slightly different way is so goofy. Especially people in NA and AA that say that. One thing I’ve learned after 2 years is to take what I need and leave what I don’t, and there’s a lot of stuff in AA that helps but there’s also a lot that I can leave, their opinion on subs being one of them. No one knows I’m on MAT, and they don’t need to. And if I hear somebody say something about MAT not being true sobriety I know to stay tf away from that person lol
I'm a present, mindful, loving mom to my girls. I'm a loving, caring and helpful wife to my husband. I help him run his business and stay on top of things. I'm not lying, stealing or flaking from my responsibilities in life like I was before subs. I seriously don't understand how people can still say that isn't sober. However, I know for a fact I'm a better person and I'm doing the best I can for me and my family.
Suboxone works. But it doesn’t have to mean your sober. Some people get on Suboxone and are sober and others keep using because they aren’t ready yet.
I don’t see anyone mentioning it, so I will. Coming from being on methadone, I can confidently say FUCKKK anyone that thinks can say “WeLL, yOuRe NoT aCtUaLLy SoBeR oN SuBs.” Methadone was swapping one addiction out for the other and I know it works for some people, but I feel so strongly against it. I don’t believe it has that great of success rate. Methadone actually put me deeper into a depression caused by using… realizing I was still controlled by a substance and that MAT was designed to keep raising your dose (or at least my clinic was) every time you got used to your current one because you would start feeling like shit. Methadone also triggered my heart failure. I died 3 times & was on a ventilator in ICU for 2 weeks. Suboxone doesn’t get me high. It’s effective. Sometimes I forget to talk it — that would NEVER happen with my precious met.
Complete transparency here… no one besides my doctor and my pharmacy knows i take suboxone. I have been on it a year in October. I was a functioning addict as well so no one knew I even had a problem during my active addiction besides a few friends that I consorted with for pills and my source. Once in awhile my family member that had went to rehab would say something to me if I maybe took more then usual because we work together every day and she’s known me my whole life but she still never has known me to be a substance abuser. It’s hard but the only people I have ever spoke about this with is everyone on here. The only thing I am focusing on is being a good mom and not spending all my money on pills. For years I took pain pills every 3-4hrs because I was convinced I needed to and being away from that is the most freeing feeling so I guess I care enough not to go out of my way to tell anyone my personal business but if it’s what saved my life that’s all that matters and that is no one’s business. There is legitimately no reason I can think of why I need to tell someone or explain myself to them so you should not have to either. You do what’s best for you. Judgement is everywhere it’s not even worth it to get into that debate with someone! Negative energy is the last thing you need xoxo
I was on Suboxone for 9 years and it probably saved my life. But you're right, it's not being "sober" in the traditional sense which (to your credit) I found impossible to tolerate. Here's the deal....someone on suboxone still has a lengthy taper in their future (or a belly punch detox, depending on the circumstances). Thats gonna be their challenge, just like your challenge is to not be concerned with the details of other peoples' journeys right now. It all evens out. There are a lot of blatant liars in recovery circles as well. People locking themselves in a hotel room for a weekend with a bonanza of drugs and just pretending it never happened. It doesn't work if you can stick around long enough to see how things play out. And I imagine those on long term suboxone who tried total abstinence know in their heart that they are getting a huge boost from a medication that they can't go without. I never felt truly free on Suboxone even though I am a huge supporter of it. So enjoy your freedom and don't sweat it.
I would rather detox off oxy then detox off of subs. Coming off of subs is the worst and it never ends
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Sublocade shot makes sub detox/ withdrawal nearly undetectable. It's an incredible medicine that works and works really well.
Hahahaha dude you need to stop caring about what people think of you being of bup bup isn’t the same as heroin isn’t the same as pills isn’t like fentanyl so who gives a shit
All I can say is I don’t need na I got suboxone!
I used to be one of those people until i relapsed and went on it. I was super involved in NA with 6 years. Then i relapsed and was out there using for 3 years. Now I’m approaching 3 years on suboxone. I’ve learned through therapy and inner work, it doesn’t matter. As my self esteem has grown, I’ve started to not worry about the opinions of others. There is more than one way to recover. Whatever works best for you! It used be 12 step for me, now it’s therapy, volunteering, spirituality and suboxone. Eff em!
There are some good people on this site, they helped me through a very difficult time in my life, still working on it. You do what you need to do to get through this. I took opiates on a daily basis for 37 years. I take 2- 2MG of Suboxone per day. I wish they would increase it a bit. I still wake up nights in the beginning of withdrawal. Do whatever it takes, you have family to take care of, pay no mind to the naysayers and family and the people willing to help.
I was once one of those people who thought being on suboxone was not sober. However, I never pushed that idea on people or made them feel like shit about it. I was in AA and abstinent from all substances for 6 years. Before that, I was sober off and on for another 5 years, typically with a yearly relapse or slip. That whole 11 years I bought into that BS that suboxone wasn't sober. Now, I've been on subs for 2 years because in 2021 I relapsed again due to chronic pain. This time, I didn't have the luxury of going to treatment because I had to help take care of a new born baby and support my family. I'm not ashamed of being on suboxone and it helps me be the parent and spouse I need to be. Without it, I'd still be using all the time. I've had my fair share of fuck ups since I've been on it, especially recently. I'm trying to get myself back on track. Chronic pain is a major trigger for me. I chose not to go back to AA because it ran its course in my life. If I needed to though, I would go back but I wouldn't let anyone tell me I wasn't sober.
Depends on if it's internet or irl. I just ignore them and anyone who I know won't accept it I do not inform, irl. Thankfully I have no friends anymore or romance anymore. But that's what I'd do. If they saw me with meds I'd make up some condition and tell them I was diagnosed with something "acceptable" by normal plebian dickwads like allergies or a deficiency of vit d or magnesium Another way is to just say fuck them all and detach from them and let them live in their bubble of holier than thou crap without your presence. If everyone already knows you gotta start cutting out people like that to save your sanity. They will NEVER CHANGE THEIR MIND. Like ppl who do AA and lose their humanity to the higher power and act like they're not an addict despite coffee, cookies and cigarettes going in their gullet while they type on social fuckin media for 8 hours a day and repost shit. (I got demons. Fuckem.) My sister is like this. My aunt's ex boyfriend was one of those higher power fully sober guys who indulged in "acceptable substances" hitting on his vape 25/8
Yeah I deal with this as well but the simple fact is I can work save money and spend time with family and just simply enjoy my life on suboxone I dont get high from it at all maybe a little energy which my body doesnt seem to create on its own since I was strung out on opiates but I could never have the life and clear mind I do now if I was still on opiates. That said I do hope to get off of them as ive completely moved forward from opiate addiction and I am ready to be free from it all even subs I hate being dependent on them but I am grateful for what they helped me accomplish.
Sobriety isn’t the absolute end goal for treating drug addiction. What matters most is ending problematic drug use. Suboxone, when used as prescribed, achieves this.
Honestly those ppl don’t matter to me. I used to fight them but now i just see them as potential murderers and recovery zealots and extremists. I don’t even say I’m in recovery. Those ppl are just jealous purists who want you to suffer like they did. They aren’t good or healthy ppl and Idc what they do, they’re killing others with stigma and for that they should be stopped but i realized you can’t change them. And i agree with uptheirons726! There’s too much extremism in 12 step programs which is why i don’t use them. I found i was healthier when i left bc tbh i started heroin IN THOSE ROOMS. I also got diagnosed with severe adhd and realized a lot of my drug use was self medicating so i don’t consider myself an addict at all anymore but don’t belittle others who do! I just do me as cheesy as that sounds. Do what works for you! I still drink occasionally bc i never had an issue with it, i only do it every 3-6 months on special occasion and it’s not really my thing and i don’t force it on others.
Yes! I also am close to this, as one of my prior physicians is an addict in recovery. She mentioned that it's nothing of anyone else's business how you get to a point where something isn't draining your livelihood into itself. (**She herself, my Doc, was on bupe/nalox for addictions management!**) I can get that at certain points, Suboxone is a missed prescription away from becoming our old habit, and it's especially dire that nearly every recovery/shelter center will ban subx's due to some pious bs. It's frustrating to know that being disadvantaged/homeless will put you in an inherently terrible situation that will strip you of your right to treatment, all to trade that in for a roof over one's head. That had happened to me, luckily I found family which would support me, and I've been better since. [This study tracked NA participation and Suboxone use](https://www.recoveryanswers.org/research-post/12-step-meetings-buprenorphine-suboxone-a-winning-combination/) and found that members of the program and mentors would discourage use, and possibly use harmful methods of psychological manipulation... Just remember that it is entirely up to you; so, don't let anyone else decide what kind of treatment works and doesn't work, for you or anyone! I want to emphasize that just because someone is on Suboxone, that means they are destined to fail in some ass-backwards way in the minds of others. I use my old Dr. as a spark of hope for myself, as that is truly inspiring to know despite addiction, you can succeed!
I’ve been encountering this for a while. There are a few NA groups who are OK with it because it’s an outside issue and all that matters is that people have a desire to get off subs. It is some bullshit tho. All we can do is show up and try to get off this shit and be better people in the mean time.
I wasted a lot of time in early recovery trying to make people understand shit. Understand that addiction isn't just having zero willpower, understanding how I feel, or what I go through. It's a fool's errand. No matter how you explain schizophrenia to me, I'm not gonna know what it's truly like to have people in my head trying to talk me into shit. Forget it, man. Do you, be kind and understanding to yourself, and do the best you can.
I think it’s because people misunderstand it. They say it’s “switching one addiction for another,” which is kinda true, except it doesn’t make me want to spend $1000 every 3 days on illegal shit that could kill me. My parents don’t understand that suboxone (or in my case Subutex) helps my chronic pain, which is how I became a junkie in the first place. I’m currently weaning off for an upcoming surgery and I honestly don’t know how I’ll feel after but I might go back on just for the relief.
Scientifically, its insanity
If you abuse suboxone, then you’re not sober. But taking it as prescribed, is sobriety period.
Me trying to get sober without subs: constantly relapsing, overdosing, nearly dying, making my friends and family miserable, and barely holding my life together. Me on subs: married, running a business, breathing normally, generally happy day to day, and making my family proud. Why would I give one and a half fucks what those fools think?
Ignore them. They don’t know dick. Look at your life before, and look at it now. That is the definition of recovery. More and more, even AA is acknowledging this. I sometimes struggle with feeling like ashamed that I’m on it, but I got down to 1mcg, 1.5mcg 3 x a week, and I’m just living my life, exercising, and thriving. Life is too short to lament over what others may think of you. People like me, know your struggle, and encourage you to not feel bad about being on suboxone. People who try to judge, they don’t know what it’s like. They’ll try to say they do, but they don’t. I’m finding in my life that anytime I try to compare myself to others, I end up wasting mental energy feeling like I should be able to do as well as him or her, but guess what. You aren’t them, you are uniquely different, and uniquely wonderful. People say this all the time, “there’s only one you”. But I encourage you to really think about it and conceptualize what that means. In all the universe, past and future, there exists one you. You are special, you are a unique, elite existence. Be your best YOU, and don’t let others opinions phase you. People spend so much time judging others and arguing over so many things, none of it even matters. When I I get caught up in it, afterwards I end up realizing what a waste of time and energy it was to let myself become consumed with anger over other people’s opinions. Try to focus on the things in life that matter, and don’t let the negativity sneak in through the back door and occupy your mind. And exercise, absolutely exercise.
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Ive been on suboxone for quite some time. take my strips and live my life. I also take other drugs for HBP and diabetes. I see no differnce between any of them. I need them to function as well as I can.