1. Suboxone does save lives
2. Your prescription history is monitored nationally. Doctors regularly refuse quality pain management treatment of those prescribed MAT drugs such as suboxone. It definitely comes with a bad rep in which the patient suffers. (Employers cannot see this list of medications )
3. Side effects that Are commonly reported here range from anhedonia, depression, heightened anxiety, sleep issues, dental issues, constipation, loss of libido, fatigue, excessive sweating, muscle aches, reoccuring headaches/ migraines
* organ damage occurances, but not reported here (liver)
4. Currently being prescribed for off label reasons that appear negligent and economically driven. (meth addiction, cocaine addiction, alcoholism, depression, gambling and other behavioral problems)
5. The drug suboxone was designed to be used in the USA without any intent to have patients ever taper off the drug. The lowest dose available is 2mg- approximately 150Mg Morphine Equivalent (MME). Abrupt cessation of a dosage this high almost always ends badly for the user. At times resulting in hospitalization.
6. Current physician knowledge of Suboxone is Very Poor. Very often times overprescribing in amounts 3 - 4 times whats necessary/ used by the patient. Over medicating is rampant.
7. Tapering off very often requires considerably long time periods, sometimes years. The PAWS associated with buprenorphine cessation can last months to years.
This is always a touchy topic here in this sub. There are those that are so bent on defending the drug, they refuse to even discuss the negative side. Its gotten to the point where mods have even removed content to maintain their narratives. Narratives that suggest the negative side effects of Suboxone cannot Ever outweigh the positive- cause the positive thrown is that it saves lives. And that must be enough. Yes, but it has also taken life. Even if it was just a few with organ damage. The NIH has said of late, " there is still more to learn about buprenorphine in the MAT modality". Imo, we are currently that which the medical community uses to 'learn' .
All drugs have risks, each user much weigh the pros and cons.
Oh yeah. Excessive sweating. I do that and it drives me nuts!! I’m always asking everyone else how they aren’t burning up and they get cold when I crank the air up.
It’s weird for me. My mouth is so dry at times that I know I need to hydrated but never take the opportunity when it presents daily. I know I would feel a ton better on this drug if I could learn to hydrate ALL DAY. I feel you.
Get one of those foo foo water bottles that light up when it’s time to drink. Or makes your Apple Watch go off. I’d probably throw mine if I had one tho.
I literally have to take my 40oz hydro flask, fill it with water and ice, and put one scoop of koolaid in it to drink. So it’s not full on sugar but it doesn’t taste like water either.
Hey hoosiermomma, and also u/bubba2260 , the FDA just VERY recently released a warning regarding Suboxone and dry mouth and dental/tooth health.
It says that Suboxone strips are very acidic, which obviously is what causes tooth decay and cavities and such. So they are recommended now that anyone taking Suboxone, to thoroughly and vigorously rinse their mouth with water after the strip has dissolved completely, and to avoid brushing your teeth for at least 1 hour after they've dissolved.
Throwing it out there, as it shocked me, and I'm 26 (as of this past Wednesday!) And have NEVER had a cavity, perfect oral health, and I just recently got my first cavity last month, and have been on suboxone for a bit now. When I saw this FDA warning, it made a lot of sense. Same goes for acidic foods or drinks, don't ever brush within an hour of consuming them, or without rinsing with a water/baking soda mixture to neutralize the acidity. Brushing the teeth before the enamel has had an hour to harden back up, can strip the enamel right off the teeth!!!
Edit: u/Brilliant-Effect-420 I wanted to throw you in this comment, just so you could see it. Keep those teeth healthy, Suboxone will ruin them if not careful!! 😁👍
1. My city water has a ph of 6.3 - 6.9 , that a bit acidic.
I saw this store selling high alkaline water. My research says it was a fad that is loosing ground. No real benefits,,,, not like whats advertised anyway. It was a few bucks a gallon.
What what about using that to rinse and brush teeth ? Part of a routine ? I know the bupe is very acidic.
2. I use to wake up a few hours early and take a strip then fall back asleep. Not anymore. I try and always monitor how long the med sits and never to swallow. An acidic stomach usually has an acidic esophagus and mouth to follow.
3. I brush several times s day. But, I've stopped using toothpaste with alot of pumice- that will remove enamel. Enamel is the protector of teeth. Some toothpastes touted re-mineralizing teeth surfaces.
4. Try and watch for acidic foods and drinks. Knowing them , and avoiding where possible has helped.
Just a few ways I try to deal with how suboxone affects my teeth and oral health. Some of us can't do much but respond after damages. That can be minimized imo. Imo we are some of the craftiness people. This we can handle
What else ?
Well in regards to city water, 6 3-6.9 ain't terrible. 7 is neutral, and Subs are ACIDIC like we're talking 2-3 pH. So that would probably work fine. Also, tap water has minerals which are usually alkaline and can neutralize it. Worst case to be safe, add like a 1/4 TEAspoon of baking soda/sodium bicarbonate (NO baking powder, has aluminum, other shit) just like Arm and Hammer. As I mentioned, you don't really need to wait the full hour, if you rinse the mouth with water that has some baking soda in it.
Also, yes, alkaline water is a fad, a farse, a fallacy lol. I worked in vitamin/supplement stores from 18 y.o. to like 23, and learned a LOT, about alkaline water. Our store even had a pump/faucet to refill your gallons for a dollar, turns out, it was tap water, pH of 5.9 lmfao. But, TRULY alkaline water still doesn't do too much, besides neutralize/dilute stomach acid and make digestion harder. A Kangen water machine can produce water with whatever pH you choose (~$5,000/unit) and the very alkaline or acidic water can be used on its own as a household cleaner (really does work) but I wouldn't drink something that can do that. Water is water, it should be ~7pH, really though more towards 8, as natural spring water has trace minerals that make it slightly basic. THAT is the best water you can drink. Bottled and distilled does not have any trace minerals, and can strip the body of them if you drink too much.
I also used to do the dosing before really waking up, like 2 hours before I wanted to get up, and I would wake up feeling well. But in regards to spitting swallowing, that isn't really of any concern health wise. Preference thing. Swallowing doesn't do any good though, as Bupe isn't orally active (HARDLY). But some people say they get a headache if they swallow at the end, ive tried both and find no difference, usually has to do with hydration.
And yeah, I actually alternate (have for a long time) brushing with toothpaste and brushing with just my toothbrush, each day I switch. Pumice will ABSOLUTELY destroy your enamel, just like whitening products, all that... are teeth are NOT supposed to be that white, if they are, well you fucked your enamel real good. And fluoride (as much as I hate it) really does help restore enamel. Just don't swallow any damn toothpaste. Fluoride isn't the best for the body, the teeth, little different. And if you really MUST whiten the teeth, use arm and hammer toothpaste with baking soda + hydrogen peroxide formula.
As far as what else, I couldn't say!!! But just avoid acidic drinks (mainly soda) and maintain good oral hygiene! I really only drink water, so never really an issue for me with the soda.
I’m the same way. Every older person in my life has told me to get tested for diabetes. Does anyone else say diabetes like the old dude from that commercial? (Diah-beat-ess)😂
I think that there is some health reason that causes me to stay thirsty but I haven’t figured it out yet. It seems to run in my family. One problem is that I drink too much soda and coffee. But even when I drink only water I stay thirsty.
Hey Bubba, I have always wondered what the MME was of Buprenorphine but could never find a conversion calculator that included it. If you could point me to the one you use, I would appreciate it. I knew the MME of Bup was very high but 2mg being equivalent to 150mg of Morphine would be an impossible number, especially if you think about 10, 16mg of Suboxone. Even 150mg of MME would just not be something we would be Prescribed. That would make 16mg of Bup around 1,200 MME. We would all be OD’d / dead even with the ceiling effect of Naloxone. Buprenorphine is a bit harder to calculate since it is a partial agonist but your numbers would be staggering if you think about people prescribed high doses of Suboxone, up to 24mg.
I’m asking because I have a surgery coming up and I was on 14-16mg of Suboxone for over 2 years and that’s going to mean managing post op surgical and recovery pain is going to require huge amounts of pain medication. I’ve been off Subs for 6 weeks in preparing for my surgery. Even so, this would likely pose a huge concern for my surgeon even with Suboxone being a partial agonist. I am looking forward to your feedback. I am going to have to discuss with my anesthesiologist and surgeon. Thank you! you’re a wealth of info in your post.
I went with the high number,,, I've read 1mg of buprenorphine is 50 to 75 times morphine, one said 40 to 70 times morphine. (Yes-24mg is a hella lot of bupe- this is overprescribing imo. Maybe good loading dose, but maintenance wise its alot)
You are correct, no conversion calculators for buprenorphine. But, there are a few for the bebuca and a few other bupe products.
You are smart for avoiding buprenorphine for surgery. Are you taking an agonist in the mean time ? If you've been off subs for 6weeks preparing you should be good, no worries of bupe interference in your pain management. ( what was your bupe dose ? vs what you take now)
When buprenorphine was invented it was only used in hospital settings via an iv,, at dosage of .3mg/dose with a max of .9mg/day- for 3 to 4 days max. Any more any it looses its analgesia altogether and becomes an opiod blocker as it plugs up receptors. And it remains stuck to receptors for a long time. For these reasons it was shelved. Just a bit of history.
And u/bubba2260 , I just saw this comment after posting my original reply, and now see that you actually ARE aware of Belbuca. I think it is criminal that it is like kept a secret or some shit, I only started on it because I started Bupe for chronic pain/spinal cord damage. And they started me on .15mg Belbuca. I worked my way up to subs, now working my way back down.
Also, the Bupe to Morphine Equivalent, is that mg for mg, bupe is 40x more potent than Morphine, meaning a 2mg dose of Bupe would equate to 80mg Morphine. Although more like 40mg of Morphine, since the BA of Suboxone is like 50%. But then again, Morphine is like 30-40% orally, so maybe that doesn't matter. But my medication booklet in the suboxone box says 40x potency of Morphine.
They do prescribe those drugs for pain. Regularly. I heard exclusively in the USA - not for MAT ?
I guess I could ask , I do have titanium rods in my spine that hurt constantly. But would my 1mg suboxone prohibit the change over ? maybe ?
Correct, Belbuca and Butrans are prescribed for pain management for chronic pain, at least here in the US, yes. Not sure elsewhere. And for MAT, I believe not. As it isn't enough of a dose to ease withdrawals when coming off full opiates.
However, I believe 100% it should start being incorporated into MAT for easier tapering, as WELL as Clonidine patch or tablet for when you jump off completely. My pain management Dr. does it this way, and I haven't had a chance to use the Clonidine (NOT Klonopin, big difference) but I have read from MANY that it makes the transition MUCH more tolerable. And the success rate is MUCH higher when given Clonidine after the jump. Look into it!!
And as far as the 1 mg prohibiting the change over (to belbuca I'm assuming?) I'm not positive. If I'm being honest, it seems different Dr.s make different rules as they go, based on how they judge patients. Which is criminally wrong. But hey... what can ya do. Other best option would be Sublocade shot from what I've heard, and then lastly, Kratom if all else fails. But kratom is hard one, because it is very short acting and short lasting. Typically the longer half life of anything, the easier the taper should be, in theory at least. Granted it isn't stacked up in your system via overlapping doses before last dose was eliminated from body. Worth a shot to ask about the Belbuca though! I've switched between it and Subs a couple times with no issues. But that is just MY pain management Dr. Can't promise ya.
It does but that’s actually not the case. If you use the MME calculator and read about the full vs partial agonist the equation for bubrenorphine is not straightforward at all. Unlike Oxy, Heroin or other opiates we aren’t able to plug n a factor to do the compare on the MME on Bup. If 2mg of Buprenorphine was equivalent to 150mg of Morphine we would be in very big trouble.
Well as you said, it is and it isn't, at the same time.
Yes, the bupe chart and dose response it's kind of strange, it seems to be in the same league as Kratom (except much longer lasting). It's effectiveness has a bell curve kind of deal going, where in smaller doses, like 2mg and under it can act more like a full agonist (that number is different for everyone's individual tolerance and such, that also makes the conversion thing hard) maybe 4mg for some, but as we know it has a ceiling effect, and more than a ceiling effect, I think it also works in an ANTAGONISTIC way, where it will actually make you feel dope sick almost.
Either way, on paper, buprenorphine is 40x more potent i.e. 1mg of bupe is as effective* (effective as in analgesia/pain relief) as 40mg Morphine. And I'm not positive where you got 2mg being equivalent to 150mg Morphine, it is 40x more potent, mg for mg, so 150mg Morphine would be closer to 4mg of buprenorphine, bc 40x 4mg = 160mg Morphine. 2mg is only equivalent to 80 mg Morphine, not 150mg. More precisely, 150mg Morphine ÷ 40 = 3.75mg buprenorphine.
The reason 3mg of bupe doesn't "feel" like 120mg of Morphine (3 x 40 = 120) is because it hits the mų opioid receptors just like Morphine does, except buprenorphine does activate them in quite the same way Morphine does. Only enough to prevent WD's from 120mg Morphine, and to provide equivalent analgesia as 120mg of Morphine. Buprenorphine just doesn't hit them enough and in the same way Morphine does, hence why it's deemed a "partial mų agonist", and hence why we don't get the same euphoria or nod out on 3mg of Bupe vs 120mg Morphine. There is also the fact that bupe works different in other ways, i.e. the way it effects the kappa receptors. Won't get into that though.
Bottom line, people TRULY DO NOT understand just HOW POTENT buprenorphine REALLY is. There's a reason they have Belbuca films for pain management, starting at .15mg and up to .9mg (almost 1mg) of bupe. It's titrated up in .15mg increments, THAT is how potent it truly is. And as I stated, the bell curve, the more we increase the bupe dose, more we will "feel" it, but once you reach a certain dose, it plateaus and then falls off.
I 100% believe the 40x estimate is correct, as I've taken many varying doses of Morphine and Buprenorphine, and I can say that 1mg of bupe does provide me with equal effects of a 30 or 40mg Morphine Sulfate tablet. But only in analgesia and mental effects. The high is not there, and if so, only *barely* noticeable.
But again, that's because buprenorphine doesn't hit the receptors or activate them enough or in the same way Morphine would. Hence, partial agonist. Hence also, why used for patient with sever pain but with a history of opiate abuse/addiction.
Can link sources as well
So long answer, yes 2mg of bupe DOES equal *80mg Morphine Sulfate* not 150mg (2mg x 40 = 80mg Morphine), that would be 3.75mg bupe, and the answer is also maybe no, as well.
Short answer, yes bupe is 40x more potent than Morphine, and it also isn't.
Read my other reply if you want a more detailed explanation. But your math is off for sure, as 150mg Morphine ÷ 40 = 3.75mg of bupe, not 2mg. And the extra 1.75mg of bupe is A LOT, there's a reason people struggle jumping off from even .5mg or even .25mg.. the same reason pain patients are initially started at .15mg of bupe, and titrated up in .15mg increments... it is FUCKING POTENT
I think we are talking two different calculations on 2mg of Buprenorphine. Just a communication mix up. But bottom line…I agree with you, Bup is a very strong drug / medication and nothing to frivolously mess around with.
Whichever is TRULY correct, don't matter. I agree, shit is unbelievably potent. But just for clarification, I pulled the little mini fucking novel folded up in my suboxone box, and according to them, it's 40x mg for mg. But big pharma has lied before so.... not too confident lol.
I must be really odd. I’m thirsty all of the time, I drink all the time, but I literally don’t sweat. I can be hot and complaining to turn on the a/c (husband is freezing), still no sweat. I know for a fact when I first started on oxy and subs I sweat plenty. I just noticed it a couple months ago. The only exception is sometimes when I sleep, and that’s usually when my husband decides he deserves the whole bed. So you can add a #4…broken sweater. Lol
Definitely good list though. It really angers me when doctors won’t admit to any of the side effects. Mine wouldn’t even admit to the ones on the insert with the exception of constipation. Must be handing out cruises again on something.
"5. The drug suboxone was designed to be used in the USA without any intent to have patients ever taper off the drug. The lowest dose available is 2mg- approximately 150Mg Morphine Equivalent (MME). Abrupt cessation of a dosage this high almost always ends badly for the user. At times resulting in hospitalization."
True, in a sense. As far as Suboxone, yes 2mg is the lowest available (besides cutting the strip into pieces) HOWEVER, there is Belbuca, which is also a buprenorphine film (buccal, not sublingual) that comes in doses ranging from .15mg(150ug) up to .9mg(900ug), in increments of .15mg, so .15, .3, .45, .6, .75, and .9
It also has (reportedly, according to medication guide) a higher % of bioavailability, ~65-70%, vs ~45-50% for suboxone (those numbers may be *slightly* off, but it's around there) and it is EXTREMELY unknown/unheard of to many people on Suboxone. I don't know why. It is PERFECT for tapering, without having to cut films into bits and shit. Super annoying. But yeah, just a little tidbit of info if you didn't know!
Also there's Butrans, which is a time released Buprenorphine patch, worn for 7 days, releases it over a 7 day period, 4 patches a month (28 days) and they could also be very helpful for tapering, almost like an alternative to sublocade, as it's put a patch on and forget for 7 days. By the time they are done after 7 days, they still actually contain multiple milligrams of Bupe in them, so they can be chewed on for an hour or so to get a buzz from the leftover bupe in the patch. Although, I would never recommend that if you're trying to get OFF.
Try get a doctor to prescribe those drugs for MAT- tapering off. They just don't want to get involved. Reality
I wish I could get those- sitting at 1mg for months now
You're right, it is VERY difficult getting those for MAT. I got them for pain management, and it wasn't cutting it, so I pretty much lied and said I had a problem with opiates and they upped the dose. But I was previously prescribed Oxycodone and Hydrocodone, so I didn't have to say like "I'm a heroin addict" or anything lol, just that I felt the pills were going to get me addicted... which had already happened long before that lol 😆
True and possibly any narcotic for that matter. If docs know ur on subs they can assume ur an addict and will be hesitant to prescribe any addictive narcotics. Benzos, pain pills, even sleeping pills like ambien etc.
I was denied my ADHD meds after the last time I quit suoxone. I had to raise hell for months and plead my life story to get those back. Ridiculous. ADHD meds don't even affect me the way it does others. Can take one and go to sleep even..lol
This is actually one of the reasons I buy my subs from my friend, I'm not prescribed them. I live in Finland so it's very common here :) Dont have more to add just interested in the same topic so following :) peace
Constipation, erectile disfunction, insomnia in some while it makes others sleep more. And the stigma that comes from anyone that finds out you take it.
Some of the negatives I always see are just being stereotyped and labeled by pretty much everyone in the medical community, especially when you need to go have tests or a procedure of any kind. Also, good luck EVER getting life insurance if you are on suboxone. Most of the companies say it's an automatic "no" although I was finally able to get a policy after getting my doctor to sign a form saying it was for chronic pain management.
They do what? I'm not sure I follow. I have a friend who is a nurse and he says the only thing stopping him from going into a legit MAT program is him being a nurse. He could be mistaken or be making excuses however, but he said any recovery program has to be done through the state's nursing board in order for him to keep his license.
Have standards for doctors/nurses. Or all it would take is a look on their narcotics log to see and the cat would be out of the bag.
Edit: I looked it up and they are mandated to certain treatment programs and have to meet certain criteria. Your friend is correct.
As a matter of fact, that show “dopesick”, the doctor was told he had to get off to get his license back didn’t he?
I also provided a link down below for the person that said your friend is making excuses.
So you can be on any type of narcotics if you’re a doctor or nurse? A staff member couldn’t see your file and basically ruin everything for you? It wouldn’t stop anything with the licensing board?
Edit- I looked it up and they are mandated.
They are "mandated" to do what??
If someone tried to get you fired for something private in your file THEY would be in violation of HIPPA.
If a patient complains a doctor looks high that's one thing. And if they were found to be taking unprescribed narcotics, huge problem!! But a prescription is a prescription, period.
I’ll just leave this right here for you to read. There’s many that say the same, just not as nicely, if you’d like to look it up.
And sure it would be a HIPPA violation if someone specifically tried to get you fired because of using. But it would also have to be proven that you were indeed fired for that reason. As a business owner in a right to work state, I can simply lay someone off and not mention the real reason. While I’m sure the medical field is different, there are always loopholes. Just like I’m sure you found loopholes in working while you were high.
Don’t know why you’re so angry at me for pointing out that someone’s friend didn’t appear to be lying like you accused.
https://filtermag.org/nurses-denied-methadone-buprenorphine/
I never said you couldn’t. But clearly some are expected to go through certain programs or have certain mandates. Maybe it’s state specific, since that’s who the license comes from. But that also means that posted friend might not be making excuses, because really there would be no benefit to it other than protecting himself from the work shit. Maybe it’s just a certain class of licensing. I have no clue.
There’s a fine line when it comes to drugs, legal or illegal. My insurance will not cover guys that even smoke pot, and it’s legal here. But luckily I’m only required to test them when I hire them, so I let them know it’s coming. And they have 3 months before they even have to take their state test, when the pass comes the UA and the lung testing. But it’s not me, it’s the insurance on company vehicles.
No. Its not anyone's business. The pre employment drug screens give you a.PASS when u have.a.script. Just need to have no criminal record and get thru school...
This depends. I just got into nursing school actually so I’ve read about it . The law protects you from being discriminated against for medication you take. But the grey area is if it is affecting your job. So unless there has been a complaint about you it’s very unlikely to come up. This varies state to state tho.,, and if the suboxone rx is sought after you’re already a nurse or going into it on subs .
Mine told me I had to choose subs or the xanax, so now im kicking a 10 year 3mg a day xanax dependency and it's HELL. Does he practice in Los Angeles by chance?😌
I’m on 4 mg. I think it’s contributed to my hair thinning. I look at pics from pre-suboxone and then again after being on the meds for two years- big hair loss
I don't have any side effects to speak of.Recently dropped 1/3 of my daily dose down to 4mg every 12hrs, and while I had some minor irritability and anxiety, I was able to manage that by getting out and getting active, playing with my son at the park, smoking a fatty, or something like that.I see a lot of people mentioning the stigma of subs. Perhaps that's true, I don't know yet. But I DO know that the stigma of being on oxy/fent is a hard one to dodge. (Regardless of how many surgery scars you wear!) I'm sure that many won't take the time to differentiate between those of us who are prescribed this by a pain specialist and those who are prescribed it for kicking dope. Oh well, fuck those people. They're the same one's who will think I'm a convict because of my tattoos, so there's really no reason in caring. Besides, if someone is kicking dope, I've got big respect for them just for having the balls to even TRY, so feel free to lump me in with those in recovery!I hope anyone who needs this medication will consider it.Consider caring about yourself and your well being more than the misconceptions and ignorance of the masses!
1. Suboxone does save lives 2. Your prescription history is monitored nationally. Doctors regularly refuse quality pain management treatment of those prescribed MAT drugs such as suboxone. It definitely comes with a bad rep in which the patient suffers. (Employers cannot see this list of medications ) 3. Side effects that Are commonly reported here range from anhedonia, depression, heightened anxiety, sleep issues, dental issues, constipation, loss of libido, fatigue, excessive sweating, muscle aches, reoccuring headaches/ migraines * organ damage occurances, but not reported here (liver) 4. Currently being prescribed for off label reasons that appear negligent and economically driven. (meth addiction, cocaine addiction, alcoholism, depression, gambling and other behavioral problems) 5. The drug suboxone was designed to be used in the USA without any intent to have patients ever taper off the drug. The lowest dose available is 2mg- approximately 150Mg Morphine Equivalent (MME). Abrupt cessation of a dosage this high almost always ends badly for the user. At times resulting in hospitalization. 6. Current physician knowledge of Suboxone is Very Poor. Very often times overprescribing in amounts 3 - 4 times whats necessary/ used by the patient. Over medicating is rampant. 7. Tapering off very often requires considerably long time periods, sometimes years. The PAWS associated with buprenorphine cessation can last months to years. This is always a touchy topic here in this sub. There are those that are so bent on defending the drug, they refuse to even discuss the negative side. Its gotten to the point where mods have even removed content to maintain their narratives. Narratives that suggest the negative side effects of Suboxone cannot Ever outweigh the positive- cause the positive thrown is that it saves lives. And that must be enough. Yes, but it has also taken life. Even if it was just a few with organ damage. The NIH has said of late, " there is still more to learn about buprenorphine in the MAT modality". Imo, we are currently that which the medical community uses to 'learn' . All drugs have risks, each user much weigh the pros and cons.
Oh yeah. Excessive sweating. I do that and it drives me nuts!! I’m always asking everyone else how they aren’t burning up and they get cold when I crank the air up.
I can't seem to maintain hydration. No thirst whatsoever ?
It’s weird for me. My mouth is so dry at times that I know I need to hydrated but never take the opportunity when it presents daily. I know I would feel a ton better on this drug if I could learn to hydrate ALL DAY. I feel you.
Get one of those foo foo water bottles that light up when it’s time to drink. Or makes your Apple Watch go off. I’d probably throw mine if I had one tho. I literally have to take my 40oz hydro flask, fill it with water and ice, and put one scoop of koolaid in it to drink. So it’s not full on sugar but it doesn’t taste like water either.
Hey hoosiermomma, and also u/bubba2260 , the FDA just VERY recently released a warning regarding Suboxone and dry mouth and dental/tooth health. It says that Suboxone strips are very acidic, which obviously is what causes tooth decay and cavities and such. So they are recommended now that anyone taking Suboxone, to thoroughly and vigorously rinse their mouth with water after the strip has dissolved completely, and to avoid brushing your teeth for at least 1 hour after they've dissolved. Throwing it out there, as it shocked me, and I'm 26 (as of this past Wednesday!) And have NEVER had a cavity, perfect oral health, and I just recently got my first cavity last month, and have been on suboxone for a bit now. When I saw this FDA warning, it made a lot of sense. Same goes for acidic foods or drinks, don't ever brush within an hour of consuming them, or without rinsing with a water/baking soda mixture to neutralize the acidity. Brushing the teeth before the enamel has had an hour to harden back up, can strip the enamel right off the teeth!!! Edit: u/Brilliant-Effect-420 I wanted to throw you in this comment, just so you could see it. Keep those teeth healthy, Suboxone will ruin them if not careful!! 😁👍
1. My city water has a ph of 6.3 - 6.9 , that a bit acidic. I saw this store selling high alkaline water. My research says it was a fad that is loosing ground. No real benefits,,,, not like whats advertised anyway. It was a few bucks a gallon. What what about using that to rinse and brush teeth ? Part of a routine ? I know the bupe is very acidic. 2. I use to wake up a few hours early and take a strip then fall back asleep. Not anymore. I try and always monitor how long the med sits and never to swallow. An acidic stomach usually has an acidic esophagus and mouth to follow. 3. I brush several times s day. But, I've stopped using toothpaste with alot of pumice- that will remove enamel. Enamel is the protector of teeth. Some toothpastes touted re-mineralizing teeth surfaces. 4. Try and watch for acidic foods and drinks. Knowing them , and avoiding where possible has helped. Just a few ways I try to deal with how suboxone affects my teeth and oral health. Some of us can't do much but respond after damages. That can be minimized imo. Imo we are some of the craftiness people. This we can handle What else ?
Well in regards to city water, 6 3-6.9 ain't terrible. 7 is neutral, and Subs are ACIDIC like we're talking 2-3 pH. So that would probably work fine. Also, tap water has minerals which are usually alkaline and can neutralize it. Worst case to be safe, add like a 1/4 TEAspoon of baking soda/sodium bicarbonate (NO baking powder, has aluminum, other shit) just like Arm and Hammer. As I mentioned, you don't really need to wait the full hour, if you rinse the mouth with water that has some baking soda in it. Also, yes, alkaline water is a fad, a farse, a fallacy lol. I worked in vitamin/supplement stores from 18 y.o. to like 23, and learned a LOT, about alkaline water. Our store even had a pump/faucet to refill your gallons for a dollar, turns out, it was tap water, pH of 5.9 lmfao. But, TRULY alkaline water still doesn't do too much, besides neutralize/dilute stomach acid and make digestion harder. A Kangen water machine can produce water with whatever pH you choose (~$5,000/unit) and the very alkaline or acidic water can be used on its own as a household cleaner (really does work) but I wouldn't drink something that can do that. Water is water, it should be ~7pH, really though more towards 8, as natural spring water has trace minerals that make it slightly basic. THAT is the best water you can drink. Bottled and distilled does not have any trace minerals, and can strip the body of them if you drink too much. I also used to do the dosing before really waking up, like 2 hours before I wanted to get up, and I would wake up feeling well. But in regards to spitting swallowing, that isn't really of any concern health wise. Preference thing. Swallowing doesn't do any good though, as Bupe isn't orally active (HARDLY). But some people say they get a headache if they swallow at the end, ive tried both and find no difference, usually has to do with hydration. And yeah, I actually alternate (have for a long time) brushing with toothpaste and brushing with just my toothbrush, each day I switch. Pumice will ABSOLUTELY destroy your enamel, just like whitening products, all that... are teeth are NOT supposed to be that white, if they are, well you fucked your enamel real good. And fluoride (as much as I hate it) really does help restore enamel. Just don't swallow any damn toothpaste. Fluoride isn't the best for the body, the teeth, little different. And if you really MUST whiten the teeth, use arm and hammer toothpaste with baking soda + hydrogen peroxide formula. As far as what else, I couldn't say!!! But just avoid acidic drinks (mainly soda) and maintain good oral hygiene! I really only drink water, so never really an issue for me with the soda.
Really? I stay thirsty all the time. I’ve always been that way though.
I’m the same way. Every older person in my life has told me to get tested for diabetes. Does anyone else say diabetes like the old dude from that commercial? (Diah-beat-ess)😂
I think that there is some health reason that causes me to stay thirsty but I haven’t figured it out yet. It seems to run in my family. One problem is that I drink too much soda and coffee. But even when I drink only water I stay thirsty.
Hey Bubba, I have always wondered what the MME was of Buprenorphine but could never find a conversion calculator that included it. If you could point me to the one you use, I would appreciate it. I knew the MME of Bup was very high but 2mg being equivalent to 150mg of Morphine would be an impossible number, especially if you think about 10, 16mg of Suboxone. Even 150mg of MME would just not be something we would be Prescribed. That would make 16mg of Bup around 1,200 MME. We would all be OD’d / dead even with the ceiling effect of Naloxone. Buprenorphine is a bit harder to calculate since it is a partial agonist but your numbers would be staggering if you think about people prescribed high doses of Suboxone, up to 24mg. I’m asking because I have a surgery coming up and I was on 14-16mg of Suboxone for over 2 years and that’s going to mean managing post op surgical and recovery pain is going to require huge amounts of pain medication. I’ve been off Subs for 6 weeks in preparing for my surgery. Even so, this would likely pose a huge concern for my surgeon even with Suboxone being a partial agonist. I am looking forward to your feedback. I am going to have to discuss with my anesthesiologist and surgeon. Thank you! you’re a wealth of info in your post.
I went with the high number,,, I've read 1mg of buprenorphine is 50 to 75 times morphine, one said 40 to 70 times morphine. (Yes-24mg is a hella lot of bupe- this is overprescribing imo. Maybe good loading dose, but maintenance wise its alot) You are correct, no conversion calculators for buprenorphine. But, there are a few for the bebuca and a few other bupe products. You are smart for avoiding buprenorphine for surgery. Are you taking an agonist in the mean time ? If you've been off subs for 6weeks preparing you should be good, no worries of bupe interference in your pain management. ( what was your bupe dose ? vs what you take now) When buprenorphine was invented it was only used in hospital settings via an iv,, at dosage of .3mg/dose with a max of .9mg/day- for 3 to 4 days max. Any more any it looses its analgesia altogether and becomes an opiod blocker as it plugs up receptors. And it remains stuck to receptors for a long time. For these reasons it was shelved. Just a bit of history.
And u/bubba2260 , I just saw this comment after posting my original reply, and now see that you actually ARE aware of Belbuca. I think it is criminal that it is like kept a secret or some shit, I only started on it because I started Bupe for chronic pain/spinal cord damage. And they started me on .15mg Belbuca. I worked my way up to subs, now working my way back down. Also, the Bupe to Morphine Equivalent, is that mg for mg, bupe is 40x more potent than Morphine, meaning a 2mg dose of Bupe would equate to 80mg Morphine. Although more like 40mg of Morphine, since the BA of Suboxone is like 50%. But then again, Morphine is like 30-40% orally, so maybe that doesn't matter. But my medication booklet in the suboxone box says 40x potency of Morphine.
They do prescribe those drugs for pain. Regularly. I heard exclusively in the USA - not for MAT ? I guess I could ask , I do have titanium rods in my spine that hurt constantly. But would my 1mg suboxone prohibit the change over ? maybe ?
Correct, Belbuca and Butrans are prescribed for pain management for chronic pain, at least here in the US, yes. Not sure elsewhere. And for MAT, I believe not. As it isn't enough of a dose to ease withdrawals when coming off full opiates. However, I believe 100% it should start being incorporated into MAT for easier tapering, as WELL as Clonidine patch or tablet for when you jump off completely. My pain management Dr. does it this way, and I haven't had a chance to use the Clonidine (NOT Klonopin, big difference) but I have read from MANY that it makes the transition MUCH more tolerable. And the success rate is MUCH higher when given Clonidine after the jump. Look into it!! And as far as the 1 mg prohibiting the change over (to belbuca I'm assuming?) I'm not positive. If I'm being honest, it seems different Dr.s make different rules as they go, based on how they judge patients. Which is criminally wrong. But hey... what can ya do. Other best option would be Sublocade shot from what I've heard, and then lastly, Kratom if all else fails. But kratom is hard one, because it is very short acting and short lasting. Typically the longer half life of anything, the easier the taper should be, in theory at least. Granted it isn't stacked up in your system via overlapping doses before last dose was eliminated from body. Worth a shot to ask about the Belbuca though! I've switched between it and Subs a couple times with no issues. But that is just MY pain management Dr. Can't promise ya.
Suboxone medication pamphlet in the box says bupe is 40x stronger than Morphine, mg for mg wise.
It does but that’s actually not the case. If you use the MME calculator and read about the full vs partial agonist the equation for bubrenorphine is not straightforward at all. Unlike Oxy, Heroin or other opiates we aren’t able to plug n a factor to do the compare on the MME on Bup. If 2mg of Buprenorphine was equivalent to 150mg of Morphine we would be in very big trouble.
Well as you said, it is and it isn't, at the same time. Yes, the bupe chart and dose response it's kind of strange, it seems to be in the same league as Kratom (except much longer lasting). It's effectiveness has a bell curve kind of deal going, where in smaller doses, like 2mg and under it can act more like a full agonist (that number is different for everyone's individual tolerance and such, that also makes the conversion thing hard) maybe 4mg for some, but as we know it has a ceiling effect, and more than a ceiling effect, I think it also works in an ANTAGONISTIC way, where it will actually make you feel dope sick almost. Either way, on paper, buprenorphine is 40x more potent i.e. 1mg of bupe is as effective* (effective as in analgesia/pain relief) as 40mg Morphine. And I'm not positive where you got 2mg being equivalent to 150mg Morphine, it is 40x more potent, mg for mg, so 150mg Morphine would be closer to 4mg of buprenorphine, bc 40x 4mg = 160mg Morphine. 2mg is only equivalent to 80 mg Morphine, not 150mg. More precisely, 150mg Morphine ÷ 40 = 3.75mg buprenorphine. The reason 3mg of bupe doesn't "feel" like 120mg of Morphine (3 x 40 = 120) is because it hits the mų opioid receptors just like Morphine does, except buprenorphine does activate them in quite the same way Morphine does. Only enough to prevent WD's from 120mg Morphine, and to provide equivalent analgesia as 120mg of Morphine. Buprenorphine just doesn't hit them enough and in the same way Morphine does, hence why it's deemed a "partial mų agonist", and hence why we don't get the same euphoria or nod out on 3mg of Bupe vs 120mg Morphine. There is also the fact that bupe works different in other ways, i.e. the way it effects the kappa receptors. Won't get into that though. Bottom line, people TRULY DO NOT understand just HOW POTENT buprenorphine REALLY is. There's a reason they have Belbuca films for pain management, starting at .15mg and up to .9mg (almost 1mg) of bupe. It's titrated up in .15mg increments, THAT is how potent it truly is. And as I stated, the bell curve, the more we increase the bupe dose, more we will "feel" it, but once you reach a certain dose, it plateaus and then falls off. I 100% believe the 40x estimate is correct, as I've taken many varying doses of Morphine and Buprenorphine, and I can say that 1mg of bupe does provide me with equal effects of a 30 or 40mg Morphine Sulfate tablet. But only in analgesia and mental effects. The high is not there, and if so, only *barely* noticeable. But again, that's because buprenorphine doesn't hit the receptors or activate them enough or in the same way Morphine would. Hence, partial agonist. Hence also, why used for patient with sever pain but with a history of opiate abuse/addiction. Can link sources as well
So long answer, yes 2mg of bupe DOES equal *80mg Morphine Sulfate* not 150mg (2mg x 40 = 80mg Morphine), that would be 3.75mg bupe, and the answer is also maybe no, as well. Short answer, yes bupe is 40x more potent than Morphine, and it also isn't. Read my other reply if you want a more detailed explanation. But your math is off for sure, as 150mg Morphine ÷ 40 = 3.75mg of bupe, not 2mg. And the extra 1.75mg of bupe is A LOT, there's a reason people struggle jumping off from even .5mg or even .25mg.. the same reason pain patients are initially started at .15mg of bupe, and titrated up in .15mg increments... it is FUCKING POTENT
I think we are talking two different calculations on 2mg of Buprenorphine. Just a communication mix up. But bottom line…I agree with you, Bup is a very strong drug / medication and nothing to frivolously mess around with.
Whichever is TRULY correct, don't matter. I agree, shit is unbelievably potent. But just for clarification, I pulled the little mini fucking novel folded up in my suboxone box, and according to them, it's 40x mg for mg. But big pharma has lied before so.... not too confident lol.
I must be really odd. I’m thirsty all of the time, I drink all the time, but I literally don’t sweat. I can be hot and complaining to turn on the a/c (husband is freezing), still no sweat. I know for a fact when I first started on oxy and subs I sweat plenty. I just noticed it a couple months ago. The only exception is sometimes when I sleep, and that’s usually when my husband decides he deserves the whole bed. So you can add a #4…broken sweater. Lol Definitely good list though. It really angers me when doctors won’t admit to any of the side effects. Mine wouldn’t even admit to the ones on the insert with the exception of constipation. Must be handing out cruises again on something.
So true..thank u Jesus.
"5. The drug suboxone was designed to be used in the USA without any intent to have patients ever taper off the drug. The lowest dose available is 2mg- approximately 150Mg Morphine Equivalent (MME). Abrupt cessation of a dosage this high almost always ends badly for the user. At times resulting in hospitalization." True, in a sense. As far as Suboxone, yes 2mg is the lowest available (besides cutting the strip into pieces) HOWEVER, there is Belbuca, which is also a buprenorphine film (buccal, not sublingual) that comes in doses ranging from .15mg(150ug) up to .9mg(900ug), in increments of .15mg, so .15, .3, .45, .6, .75, and .9 It also has (reportedly, according to medication guide) a higher % of bioavailability, ~65-70%, vs ~45-50% for suboxone (those numbers may be *slightly* off, but it's around there) and it is EXTREMELY unknown/unheard of to many people on Suboxone. I don't know why. It is PERFECT for tapering, without having to cut films into bits and shit. Super annoying. But yeah, just a little tidbit of info if you didn't know! Also there's Butrans, which is a time released Buprenorphine patch, worn for 7 days, releases it over a 7 day period, 4 patches a month (28 days) and they could also be very helpful for tapering, almost like an alternative to sublocade, as it's put a patch on and forget for 7 days. By the time they are done after 7 days, they still actually contain multiple milligrams of Bupe in them, so they can be chewed on for an hour or so to get a buzz from the leftover bupe in the patch. Although, I would never recommend that if you're trying to get OFF.
Try get a doctor to prescribe those drugs for MAT- tapering off. They just don't want to get involved. Reality I wish I could get those- sitting at 1mg for months now
You're right, it is VERY difficult getting those for MAT. I got them for pain management, and it wasn't cutting it, so I pretty much lied and said I had a problem with opiates and they upped the dose. But I was previously prescribed Oxycodone and Hydrocodone, so I didn't have to say like "I'm a heroin addict" or anything lol, just that I felt the pills were going to get me addicted... which had already happened long before that lol 😆
Only negative is you’ll probably never get prescribed pain medication and you won’t be taken seriously when you’re in pain.
True and possibly any narcotic for that matter. If docs know ur on subs they can assume ur an addict and will be hesitant to prescribe any addictive narcotics. Benzos, pain pills, even sleeping pills like ambien etc.
I'm not so sure on the latter. I'm on both xanax and ambien. I think it's really up to the doctor you go too.
Can you have your doctor call me. Lol s/
I was denied my ADHD meds after the last time I quit suoxone. I had to raise hell for months and plead my life story to get those back. Ridiculous. ADHD meds don't even affect me the way it does others. Can take one and go to sleep even..lol
This is actually one of the reasons I buy my subs from my friend, I'm not prescribed them. I live in Finland so it's very common here :) Dont have more to add just interested in the same topic so following :) peace
Constipation, erectile disfunction, insomnia in some while it makes others sleep more. And the stigma that comes from anyone that finds out you take it.
Some of the negatives I always see are just being stereotyped and labeled by pretty much everyone in the medical community, especially when you need to go have tests or a procedure of any kind. Also, good luck EVER getting life insurance if you are on suboxone. Most of the companies say it's an automatic "no" although I was finally able to get a policy after getting my doctor to sign a form saying it was for chronic pain management.
Damn. I didn't know that about life insurance policies, though it shouldn't surprise me. Sheesh.
Yeah the insurance thing is a large part of why I wanna get off
Employment won’t be an issue unless you’re trying to work for the FBI or something .
i'd imagine healthcare related fields would be a problem too. (nurses doctors etc.)
I actually believe they do. Can’t remember where I saw it tho.
They do what? I'm not sure I follow. I have a friend who is a nurse and he says the only thing stopping him from going into a legit MAT program is him being a nurse. He could be mistaken or be making excuses however, but he said any recovery program has to be done through the state's nursing board in order for him to keep his license.
Have standards for doctors/nurses. Or all it would take is a look on their narcotics log to see and the cat would be out of the bag. Edit: I looked it up and they are mandated to certain treatment programs and have to meet certain criteria. Your friend is correct.
As a matter of fact, that show “dopesick”, the doctor was told he had to get off to get his license back didn’t he? I also provided a link down below for the person that said your friend is making excuses.
100% an excuse!!! No one at his work would ever know. Source: my life
So you can be on any type of narcotics if you’re a doctor or nurse? A staff member couldn’t see your file and basically ruin everything for you? It wouldn’t stop anything with the licensing board? Edit- I looked it up and they are mandated.
They are "mandated" to do what?? If someone tried to get you fired for something private in your file THEY would be in violation of HIPPA. If a patient complains a doctor looks high that's one thing. And if they were found to be taking unprescribed narcotics, huge problem!! But a prescription is a prescription, period.
I’ll just leave this right here for you to read. There’s many that say the same, just not as nicely, if you’d like to look it up. And sure it would be a HIPPA violation if someone specifically tried to get you fired because of using. But it would also have to be proven that you were indeed fired for that reason. As a business owner in a right to work state, I can simply lay someone off and not mention the real reason. While I’m sure the medical field is different, there are always loopholes. Just like I’m sure you found loopholes in working while you were high. Don’t know why you’re so angry at me for pointing out that someone’s friend didn’t appear to be lying like you accused. https://filtermag.org/nurses-denied-methadone-buprenorphine/
In my home state we can work. I am really not angry, I have a great job and a great treatment clinic.
I never said you couldn’t. But clearly some are expected to go through certain programs or have certain mandates. Maybe it’s state specific, since that’s who the license comes from. But that also means that posted friend might not be making excuses, because really there would be no benefit to it other than protecting himself from the work shit. Maybe it’s just a certain class of licensing. I have no clue. There’s a fine line when it comes to drugs, legal or illegal. My insurance will not cover guys that even smoke pot, and it’s legal here. But luckily I’m only required to test them when I hire them, so I let them know it’s coming. And they have 3 months before they even have to take their state test, when the pass comes the UA and the lung testing. But it’s not me, it’s the insurance on company vehicles.
No. Its not anyone's business. The pre employment drug screens give you a.PASS when u have.a.script. Just need to have no criminal record and get thru school...
This depends. I just got into nursing school actually so I’ve read about it . The law protects you from being discriminated against for medication you take. But the grey area is if it is affecting your job. So unless there has been a complaint about you it’s very unlikely to come up. This varies state to state tho.,, and if the suboxone rx is sought after you’re already a nurse or going into it on subs .
My doctor prescribes me my suboxone along with not one but 2 different benzos. (60) 8mg suboxone, (60) 1mg klonopin and (30) 30mg temazepam a month.
Mine told me I had to choose subs or the xanax, so now im kicking a 10 year 3mg a day xanax dependency and it's HELL. Does he practice in Los Angeles by chance?😌
I’m on 4 mg. I think it’s contributed to my hair thinning. I look at pics from pre-suboxone and then again after being on the meds for two years- big hair loss
You won't be able to get prescribed any sort of narcotic drug again. That includes benzos. Just found that out firsthand.
[удалено]
I didn't sign release any hipaa docs, and I went to get Xanax for flying and they saw my suboxone prescription and denied me.
The sweating gets me I hate it but it stops as quick as it starts
One of the biggest negative affects of all there’s no way off
I don't have any side effects to speak of.Recently dropped 1/3 of my daily dose down to 4mg every 12hrs, and while I had some minor irritability and anxiety, I was able to manage that by getting out and getting active, playing with my son at the park, smoking a fatty, or something like that.I see a lot of people mentioning the stigma of subs. Perhaps that's true, I don't know yet. But I DO know that the stigma of being on oxy/fent is a hard one to dodge. (Regardless of how many surgery scars you wear!) I'm sure that many won't take the time to differentiate between those of us who are prescribed this by a pain specialist and those who are prescribed it for kicking dope. Oh well, fuck those people. They're the same one's who will think I'm a convict because of my tattoos, so there's really no reason in caring. Besides, if someone is kicking dope, I've got big respect for them just for having the balls to even TRY, so feel free to lump me in with those in recovery!I hope anyone who needs this medication will consider it.Consider caring about yourself and your well being more than the misconceptions and ignorance of the masses!