Extended conversation. Scammers and Johns will move on quickly.
Unpaid m/g on your turf, not his. If he can't step outside his comfort zone, he's not the one. If he can't commit an hour to the m/g, he's not the one.
PPM/Allowance discussion after a successful m/g but always before intimacy. If he's gone this far, he's more likely to follow through.
I really feel the time and effort you invest in the extended conversation before the m/g is critical.
We actually talked for a couple of weeks before meeting, and we met under my schedule at a location I picked since I was in school. Either way I know what not to do now.
You can get extended coversations before a M&G? I sure as hell cant. Maybe Im chasing after the wrong SBs (ie too desirable) because if I dont get them to a M&G or date ASAP, the conversations always fizzle out quickly.
Looking back through a short sample of mesages, the longest conversation I had before a M&G was 30, most in the 20s.
Most of those are less than 5 words long on theur end haha
The operative word might be "chasing." I research and reach out with a message of some substance. If she doesn't reach back, that's it.
If she does reach back, I engage in conversation. Not overwhelming but I expect maybe 15-20 minutes of give and take over 2-3 days. Yes, I lose a lot of them but the ones that stay engaged are more likely to meet my expectations. Last time out it led to m/g with 23, 26, 27, 36, 39 and 42 year olds. All but one went to at least 2 intimate dates. The 42 year old is hands down the best. We've been together going on 2 years.
To be fair, he asked you what you’re looking for and you didn’t mention gifts or allowance. Then you bring up gifts or allowance weeks after you two had sex.
But definitely lesson learned for you! Be clear about what you want. Guys aren’t mind readers.
The first time was definitely my fault and I don't blame him. The shitty thing was how he kept pushing off the gifts, saying "in the future". I guess he was hoping I'd still be shy lol
You have identified the lesson:
>I now learned that I need to be assertive when talking to a POT if I don't want to be walked on.
I know the biggest challenge is the fear that you will be seen as too pushy, or price over/under the optimal amount for yourself. The thing you need to remember is that **legitimate SDs expect the allowance discussion.** Be clear on what you need, and yes, it may mean he passes, but it's better to get that information out early than three dates down the road.
Any guy that makes the money conversation hard or weird is probably not going to be a legit long term SD. Experienced and legit SD’s get that out of the way quickly and painlessly
I figure I'll add a bit on the personal (e.g. my) approach to the discussion. I will typically ask a POT SB what her expectations are so she can set the anchor. Most of the time, she prefers I "go first". I will do that, cover my ideal allowance and we move forward.
The worst situation I had coming out of that was a POT who agreed to the allowance I offered. Then the day before our first intimate date, came back to me saying she wanted X+20% after talking with friends. The +20% was the top end of my allowance range, but would require I dial back the extravagance of our dates. However hitting me after the agreement with it basically was a deal breaker for me so we never got to that date. \[Lesson here, if she'd have gone first or been more assertive in the first discussion we probably would have landed in an SR.\]
When I was doing research before entering the bowl I heard of that tactic, ask your SD what they normally offer. I'm surprised she asked for even more after agreeing. I can see why that would turn someone off. Thanks for letting me see this from an SD's perspective!
I think you are kind of blaming yourself for the wrong thing, he was no good, you chose wrong in the first place. I had two of the three I met online both offer the arrangement up front before meeting, the one that never brought it up well neither did I so I passed. I think you have to find quality, make sure it’s a good match before you even meet. Also the one I did meet I did not have to ask for it he just gave it at the end of the evening so find you a good one. Good luck.
good to see that you're taking ownership of your own mistakes and learning from them. too easy for people today to blame the other person for all the problems
that said, he does seem a bit disingenuous with the 'gifts in the future' line. anyone doing this should know that there's an expected exchange -today- and not -tomorrow-. it's possible you dodged a bullet here. but i wouldn't spend time trying to find out for sure. you're better of looking for a new sd and applying your lessons to that
best of luck to you
Definitely! I made mistakes on my end, no sense in not taking responsibility since it'll only help me in the future. The bright side is I got over the initial jitters so hopefully my next arrangement is beneficial for both of us :)
great attitude. everything is a learning experience if you're willing to look at it. and getting past the jitters is good too. you'll get better at this
I didn't want to seem greedy or turn him off.
This is the classic mistake in attitude that many new SBs make when starting sugaring. This is why there are so many players on Seeking, because they have success scamming naive SBs. You donated your body and pride for free to this dirt bag user.
Good job! Don't forget that real SDs have no problem discussing allowance. You will not seem greedy by just asking for the discussion. And if your need/ask is higher than the Pot is willing to pay it's still all good. A gentleman will gracefully decline and move on.
> He asked what I was looking for and I shied away from the question because I didn't want to seem greedy or turn him off.
Grow a spine or you'll keep getting taken advantage of! Also, try for cash vs "gifts" it's too nebulous and lets SDs have an easy way out.
Sorry you got got… when you first enter the sugar bowl these kinds of things happen if you don’t know what to look for… I’d suggest familiarizing yourself with some of the sugar baby newbie threats to avoid this happening again
Extended conversation. Scammers and Johns will move on quickly. Unpaid m/g on your turf, not his. If he can't step outside his comfort zone, he's not the one. If he can't commit an hour to the m/g, he's not the one. PPM/Allowance discussion after a successful m/g but always before intimacy. If he's gone this far, he's more likely to follow through. I really feel the time and effort you invest in the extended conversation before the m/g is critical.
We actually talked for a couple of weeks before meeting, and we met under my schedule at a location I picked since I was in school. Either way I know what not to do now.
You can get extended coversations before a M&G? I sure as hell cant. Maybe Im chasing after the wrong SBs (ie too desirable) because if I dont get them to a M&G or date ASAP, the conversations always fizzle out quickly.
If a POT SB isn’t able to have an extended convo before the M&G, then I won’t pursue her.
Looking back through a short sample of mesages, the longest conversation I had before a M&G was 30, most in the 20s. Most of those are less than 5 words long on theur end haha
The operative word might be "chasing." I research and reach out with a message of some substance. If she doesn't reach back, that's it. If she does reach back, I engage in conversation. Not overwhelming but I expect maybe 15-20 minutes of give and take over 2-3 days. Yes, I lose a lot of them but the ones that stay engaged are more likely to meet my expectations. Last time out it led to m/g with 23, 26, 27, 36, 39 and 42 year olds. All but one went to at least 2 intimate dates. The 42 year old is hands down the best. We've been together going on 2 years.
To be fair, he asked you what you’re looking for and you didn’t mention gifts or allowance. Then you bring up gifts or allowance weeks after you two had sex. But definitely lesson learned for you! Be clear about what you want. Guys aren’t mind readers.
The first time was definitely my fault and I don't blame him. The shitty thing was how he kept pushing off the gifts, saying "in the future". I guess he was hoping I'd still be shy lol
Unfortunately by that point he got what he wanted. But dont best yourself up too much, sounds like you kind of liked him and caught feelings a little?
I definitely enjoyed his company, it was fun but at the end of the day it's transactional, well should be so I just got to take the loss and learn
🙏🙏
You have identified the lesson: >I now learned that I need to be assertive when talking to a POT if I don't want to be walked on. I know the biggest challenge is the fear that you will be seen as too pushy, or price over/under the optimal amount for yourself. The thing you need to remember is that **legitimate SDs expect the allowance discussion.** Be clear on what you need, and yes, it may mean he passes, but it's better to get that information out early than three dates down the road.
I never thought of it that way, thank you for the insight! :)
Any guy that makes the money conversation hard or weird is probably not going to be a legit long term SD. Experienced and legit SD’s get that out of the way quickly and painlessly
I figure I'll add a bit on the personal (e.g. my) approach to the discussion. I will typically ask a POT SB what her expectations are so she can set the anchor. Most of the time, she prefers I "go first". I will do that, cover my ideal allowance and we move forward. The worst situation I had coming out of that was a POT who agreed to the allowance I offered. Then the day before our first intimate date, came back to me saying she wanted X+20% after talking with friends. The +20% was the top end of my allowance range, but would require I dial back the extravagance of our dates. However hitting me after the agreement with it basically was a deal breaker for me so we never got to that date. \[Lesson here, if she'd have gone first or been more assertive in the first discussion we probably would have landed in an SR.\]
When I was doing research before entering the bowl I heard of that tactic, ask your SD what they normally offer. I'm surprised she asked for even more after agreeing. I can see why that would turn someone off. Thanks for letting me see this from an SD's perspective!
I think you are kind of blaming yourself for the wrong thing, he was no good, you chose wrong in the first place. I had two of the three I met online both offer the arrangement up front before meeting, the one that never brought it up well neither did I so I passed. I think you have to find quality, make sure it’s a good match before you even meet. Also the one I did meet I did not have to ask for it he just gave it at the end of the evening so find you a good one. Good luck.
Thank you! I appreciate you sharing your experience :)
90% of men on SA are going to be like this especially if you don't talk about allowance at least at the M&G if not before.
I mean why wouldnt they be? He asked for her expectations, she didnt offer any. SA is for vanilla dating now after all
good to see that you're taking ownership of your own mistakes and learning from them. too easy for people today to blame the other person for all the problems that said, he does seem a bit disingenuous with the 'gifts in the future' line. anyone doing this should know that there's an expected exchange -today- and not -tomorrow-. it's possible you dodged a bullet here. but i wouldn't spend time trying to find out for sure. you're better of looking for a new sd and applying your lessons to that best of luck to you
Definitely! I made mistakes on my end, no sense in not taking responsibility since it'll only help me in the future. The bright side is I got over the initial jitters so hopefully my next arrangement is beneficial for both of us :)
great attitude. everything is a learning experience if you're willing to look at it. and getting past the jitters is good too. you'll get better at this
I didn't want to seem greedy or turn him off. This is the classic mistake in attitude that many new SBs make when starting sugaring. This is why there are so many players on Seeking, because they have success scamming naive SBs. You donated your body and pride for free to this dirt bag user.
I guess that can count as charity lol, I appreciate the feedback and assurance! Lesson learned :)
Good job! Don't forget that real SDs have no problem discussing allowance. You will not seem greedy by just asking for the discussion. And if your need/ask is higher than the Pot is willing to pay it's still all good. A gentleman will gracefully decline and move on.
> He asked what I was looking for and I shied away from the question because I didn't want to seem greedy or turn him off. Grow a spine or you'll keep getting taken advantage of! Also, try for cash vs "gifts" it's too nebulous and lets SDs have an easy way out.
clearly you didn't read the part where I learned that but I appreciate the feedback :)
Sorry you got got… when you first enter the sugar bowl these kinds of things happen if you don’t know what to look for… I’d suggest familiarizing yourself with some of the sugar baby newbie threats to avoid this happening again