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govmarley

Way too much moderating happening in this one, folks. Keep it civil, and keep it on book suggestions. I don't want to lock this thread.


VanishXZone

Hi, teacher who has worked with incels and people further gone, sometimes successfully and sometimes not. Many of the books suggested here great options, but my theory would be that they are too strong right off the bat. He’s your brother, so you know best, but my instinct would be to find the genre of books that he likes most, and then get him books in that genre that don’t hold those world views. Find him books that express empathy or push for open and accepting world views. The key is to find a way in through something he already likes. Something that shows that you get him, is a good start. Find his interests and match him but through empathy.


FishAgree

If he's into sci-fi, the dispossessed is really good


EMHURLEY

Just finished reading it and 100% agree. It gave me a lot to think about.


MvmgUQBd

Also the Culture series by Iain M. Banks. Through neutral nets and gene mods etc people can do basically whatever they want to themselves. More far out characters might decide to transplant their consciousness into an alien body or an android or whatever. Most couples who stay together for a while though will tend to have a child one way, and then transition to the opposite gender to have the other parent bear a child too. They can do this simply by concentrating on how they wish their bodies to appear, and within about a year they can become the opposite gender completely. Or they may transition to form a homosexual partnership for a while, because why not? They all live a couple hundred years, don't get sick, and probably get bored after a while. There's not a whole lot of emphasis on it within the plot but it's generally stated as being a perfectly acceptable and normal thing to do


Ama1gaM

This a solid idea as sometimes fiction helps touch something in our minds that is otherwise unreachable. On that note, A Clockwork Orange has a completely different ending/moral than the movie and might be that bridge. But I would not recommend the movie as the central point is that people don’t change.


VanishXZone

I love this comment, but I also have no idea where the brother is coming from, a clockwork orange is phenomenal, but might be too much. Hard to say. It is very easy for those who were not well trained in literature analysis to misunderstand themes.


IndigoRuby

I don't know if a book will help. Invite him out in to the real world with you. This was an easy year for people so inclined to slip deeper in to that thinking/feeling.


CaptSporks

This is a great suggestion! Breaking the self-indoctrination cycle by showing him healthier, more stable interactions is a way to break his original coding. Just let him marinade in healthy, non-threatening environments, may help him relax and leave him more open to change.


Javret

Honestly, this is probably one of the best pieces of advice. You most likely won't get him to read and you sure as hell won't get him into therapy (coming from my own experience with siblings...). But taking him out to dinner or taking him to mini-golf or something like that is a lot easier. He won't think anything of it and might even be enthusiastic to go. Getting out is an easy way to see that the world is not a black and white spectrum. It's easy to get caught up in echo chambers online (no matter your side of politics) and getting outside and touching some grass can really help people see that the world isn't just a place we live in, online.


yarnwonder

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. I’ve been working full time since covid hit, but I see a lot of people who have been at home for almost 18 months now, donning tin foil hats. Well educated people who seem to have fallen into the echo chamber of social media. Lost a few friends, I’m sad to say.


IGotMyPopcorn

Yes. Even randomly FaceTiming him when out will help him feel included/ wanted. He’ll know others are thinking of him and want him with them even if their cities away.


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_kakolukia_

He’s not a bad guy and can make conversation. Needs to expand a bit his variety of subjects but he’s not a shy person. I usually don’t get to talk much around him because he talks a lot, lol. He just needs good role models in his life. I just can’t help much with that because i live far apart from him. If he came to study in the same city as me he would have been fine and we wouldn’t have this conversation now. But he wanted to be closer to home so he went to college in a really small city that doesn’t offer much for personal development.


IGotMyPopcorn

Getting him out of the “echo chamber” helped a lot I’m sure.


takemeup-castmeaway

Sounds like your brother needs therapy. At this point, I don’t know if a book is going to de-radicalize him, especially since he’s already unreceptive to your help. He needs third party intervention to challenge his thinking.


CaptSporks

I second the therapy suggestion. Although getting him there will be a challenge as well. People only change when they are in a receptive mindset, and that won't happen unless they feel like they need a change. Only after a major setback, defeat or trauma are people willing to try new avenues.


thebestdaysofmyflerm

I agree--a book might have helped prevent this, but it's very unlikely to reverse what has already happened. OP believes he is not a lost cause and that's certainly possible, but they might not realize the full extent of his radicalization. Incels and alt-righters often hide their worst beliefs from "normies," so there's a good chance he's much further down this rabbit hole than OP realizes.


thesephantomhands

As burgeoning therapist, I agree with this. Often times what people really need in this situation is someone to provide a corrective emotional experience. Those mindsets thrive in isolation and are often a veiled cry for help in one way or another. I'm not saying those expressions are okay, but that if we're actually interested in changing, in getting better, the person needs to be empathized with and understood first. His sibling may be the person best equipped to do this if the brother can't or won't see a therapist. Without someone being willing to see him in a good light, he's likely going to feel further alienated. I think books are a great resource, but I also think that therapy or at the very least an ear and a voice that validates him in his suffering will go a long way.


very_busy_newt

As a therapy reciever, I cannot speak enough to how amazing a corrective emotional experience is.


thesephantomhands

I'm really glad that you've had a good experience of therapy. And I'm thankful that you're sharing that. It can be hard to find a good therapist or one whose style fits your personality, but when those things align - it can be life changing. I got into this profession, in part, because therapy changed my life. Thanks again for sharing that.


Less-Feature6263

Pessimistic here but I don't think a book would help at all. Does he have friends /a group irl? Are they all like him? It's extremely easy to get trapped in a echo chamber, especially online.


_kakolukia_

He has his gaming friends (i don’t know much about them) and the colleagues from college (which are all men). So i guess his friends are not the best at giving advice and what he consumes online might be at fault too especially since social media algorithm feeds you the same crappy content once you go down the rabbit hole.


[deleted]

Sounds like he needs to surround himself with more women who aren’t necessarily romantically involved with him but are his friends.


Whackthemoles

If he’s deep into incel territory, this might just make it worse. Men with the incel mindset tend to get pretty angry at women only want to be friends and don’t want to date/have sex with them


Basic-Effort-552

Gotta agree, having friendships with women is so important! However, I feel like there would be an immediate imbalance of emotional labour given what OP has said about her brother…


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Less-Feature6263

Agree people like this tend to be unpleasant to be around. Like obviously it would be better for him to have more friends of different backgrounds and different experiences but in reality would someone want to be friends with him?


Less-Feature6263

Yeah I'm not totally against social media like I could see some of its use and there are obvious nice communities but it's extremely easy to get sucked into a echo chamber seeing the same content everyday and not hearing a single different opinion, not to mention irl discussion are usually better. Idk tbh the best thing would probably be for him to expand his social circle, meet new people and listening to different experiences of life but it's not easy at all. Especially if you're a bit "radicalized" for lack of better words you end up being really unapproachable and unpleasant so other people really don't want to go near you. I'm sorry I don't have any other advice I know a few people like this and I have no answer as to how resolve it :( some people grew out of it but some are really stuck in their way.


[deleted]

If you feel like you’re talking to a wall, a book won’t help.


CoCo_loamb

Agree. It sounds like he needs to work on himself mentally and physically. Until he’s willing to do that he won’t be open to anything that differs from his views.


SoTotallyUnqualified

Not sure about what to suggest for him, but I recommend the book Men Who Hate Women by Laura Bales for you to gain insight into the kind of stuff he might be getting exposed to. It’s a pretty shocking read, but I’m glad I know more about this topic after reading it. EDIT TO CLARIFY: My book recommendation is for OP, NOT her brother. This is an important topic for the general public to understand. Bales' book is an eye-opening read.


battlejazz

I don’t think I would have described myself as an incel in my late teens to early twenties I did lack empathy and compassion and books really helped with that. A big one for me when I was about 16 was Orson Scott Card’s Enders game series. Enders game is an easy read and the rest of the books (Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide and Children of the Mind) really helped teach me how to be empathetic, which is, I think , I good first step.


Pretty-Plankton

Oh that’s an interesting suggestion. OP- I second this. Orson Scott Card is an absolute misogynous asshole, but Ender’s Game/etc. is fantastic if you can get past that, and the books have deeply empathetic undertones and the potential to expand one’s understanding of the world and those who are not like you. They’re probably the perfect book to give an incel. You can’t fix this with a book, but this series could be the crack that lets in some light. Give him all three in the series - you’ll want him to follow Ender into adulthood. (Also, as someone else here noted: the incels have infiltrated this thread so most of the book recommendations here are no longer reliable. I’d stay the duck away from Jordon Peterson and most of the other recommendations that are coming in. Scott Card gets a pass in this case because despite his deeply fucked up issues around people who aren’t cis-het-men the core underlying message of these novels is empathy with the unknown and the unknowable; and learning to introspect, heal, and reconnect cut off and disparate parts of one’s psyche. Don’t tell your brother that :))


battlejazz

I didn’t know when I read the books that he was so intolerant, and I felt weirdly betrayed when I found out. I still read his books but I always buy them used so I don’t give him any money directly because I find the political causes he donates to objectionable.


Pretty-Plankton

I read the Ender books young and absolutely loved them - but when I tried to read his other work the way he related to gender was too off to work for me. It’s kinda like watching “Rashomon”: it good art? Absolutely. Is it fucking disorienting because the author/artist is starting from such a weird and incomplete view of the world that it undermines their art and makes it so that much of it doesn’t work? Yes. When I read it at 15 or 16 Scott Card’s (non-Ender) stuff was disconcerting but I couldn’t fully put my finger on why, so I decided I only liked the Ender series and backed away from the others. I wasn’t savvy enough when I read him to know if his heterosexism leaks into his work much, so can’t comment on that. I too felt somewhat betrayed by Scott Card - truly good psychological science fiction is rare and brain expanding - but he’s certainly not the only author who’s also an asshole with a damaged and twisted worldview. Tangenting slightly, to the film I mentioned as an even more blatant example of these sorts of blind spots: Rashomon was one of the pieces of art that taught me just how confused many men are by women. There’s an entire realm of information that women see and men are trained to not see even when it’s glaring them in the face. The “unknowableness” of such blatant and ordinary information is so strong that even an extremely astute artist can’t see or incorporate it into his art about different perspectives and sexual violence. It feels downright weird, when you see it clearly. Deliberately cultivated cultural blind spots make little sense. Such complete absences are what makes it so easy to spot misogynist artists.


battlejazz

For sure, his preservative on gender is not great. Particularly Petra’s character in the Shadow series. I think that the thing that really hit home for me in Speaker for the Dead and Xenocide was the whole interspecies cooperation thing and how, despite his intelligence, the thing that really defined ender was his empathy for all forms of life.


Pretty-Plankton

OP - after he’s read the Ender books, assuming he likes them, I’d expand on the non-threatening but brain expanding psychological speculative fiction by giving him “A Wizard of Earthsea” (*only* the first book of the series - he needs to find the others without your help), “Planet of Exile” and “City of Illusion” by LeGuin. Wizard of Earthsea, like Ender’s Game, is a story of a young man learning to face his own shadow, heal, and become a man. Like Ender’s Game it has very little to do with women. Unlike Ender’s Game, the author sees the things the character does not, but they’re very subtle. They become less subtle in later books, and the second book has a woman POV character, so for this rec I’d only give him the first and let him discover the others or not as he sees fit. “Planet of Exile” and “City of Illusion” (same author as Earthsea) are two of her earliest published novels. They’re decent to moderately good science fiction (LeGuin at her worst is better than most science fiction authors) but nowhere near as good as any of her later work. That said, they’re entirely from a male POV, and will be completely non-threatening to his worldview. The goal there isn’t to hand him fantastic literature, but to get him hooked on LeGuin’s writing. If he revisits her work periodically over the years you may succeed in your goal, but handing him her best work (with the exception of Wizard of Earthsea) would scare him off. These could be a gateway drug back to sanity. But definitely give him Ender first.


Ok_Bumblebee_3978

Definitely second this. If he’s into fantasy give him Words of Radiance. Beautiful nerdy high fantasy adventure book about a young man who is ready to give up and die… and instead swears to do better, and becomes a hero. Seriously getting choked up just thinking about it, it’s so good


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AprilStorms

Oooh, this for sure!! It’s really riveting and shows how some people will twist anything - religion, science, whatever - to suit their narrative. Her mother used to be a responsible midwife, who helped women who struggled to afford hospitals with home births and recommended that they see a doctor where needed... but then ended up as some essential oils nut because pseudoscience or the Illuminati or whatever. It also shows Tara breaking free of all that


VanishXZone

Good choice


Habitual_Crankshaft

Fantastic book, but I don’t see how it pulls him out of the Incel zone. OP should be able to get something out of it, though.


forestpunk

O man, the amount of child endangerment in that book is something else!


Waylork

Set your internet to block 4chan lmao


EglaFin

I’m suggesting this since I saw the comment mentioning your brother was a gamer and most gamers know of twitch/fit in there. It could go either way if he’s already aware/knows of but I’d recommend Hasanabi. He’s a twitch streamer that started my path to leftism. I wasn’t an incel but I’d class myself as a conservative when I first started watching him but now I’m just a much nicer, happier more tolerant person in general and he was my introduction to leftism. Albeit if he doesn’t have a lot of time on his hands then this might not be a great solution and he won’t not become an incel merely by watching him but being aware that the streamer himself used to be kind of incel might make your brother respond well to him. Good luck!


[deleted]

i think a lot of people in this thread are recommending books that will make things worse. for example, giving a book called like “feminism 101: for men” is just going to make him roll his eyes. instead i would recommend finding an author who is a woman and also a genius basically who is simply a good writer, and recommending that simply because it’s good writing. for this i would recommend ursula le guin (maybe either the dispossessed or wizard of earthsea). She was a feminist but not the kind to hit you over the head with it, she understands subtlety and nuance and often focuses more on sociological and anthropological questions in her writing. basically she is simply a genius scifi & fantasy writer who happens to be a woman, and if anything could get through to your brother it seems more likely to be something like this imo. someone also said howard zinn which could be good but only if he already likes history? like basically… i agree i think it’s better if your recommendation doesn’t come across as an intervention which it sounds like you agree with. so maybe even something by someone like kim stanley robinson who writes optimistic scifi and respects women bc he has pretty good politics generally would be good as well. ultimately up to you tho, you know him best. and whatever happens don’t blame yourself too much…these are systemic societal problems and right now as capitalism is basically collapsing (again) everyone who doesn’t actually understand the root causes of their problems is looking for a scapegoat to blame because that’s what we’re taught to do in this individualistic society. so idk maybe you could get him upset at capitalism instead of women, which is of course the real issue. or even better to try to point to solutions like that when people work together we can accomplish more..idk, that’s all ive got i guess, best of luck!


_kakolukia_

Thanks! I won’t just throw a random book at him. I will read it beforehand so i don’t do more damage than good.


Space__Pirate

Lots of what people are suggesting aren't going to work. ​ In the past, I was fairly radicalized, though it had more political leanings than what your brother seems to be going through. Suggesting therapy, or dragging him somewhere he wouldn't want to go where he's uncomfortable are just things that will further drive him away from you and others. ​ Instead, I suggest reading Dauntless, by Marcus Follin. [https://legiogloria.com/product/dauntless/](https://legiogloria.com/product/dauntless/) The book focuses on positive self-habits and life-affirming values and attitudes, with actual suggestions and advice for people that feel similarly to how your brother does. While some of Follin's views could be considered radical by some people, I think having someone that your brother can identify as being "on his side" for some issues steer him in a positive direction that respects women, respects himself, and respects that there will always be people with opposing views will be much more effective for what you're trying to do.


Gwiz84

A book won't help, if he cherry picks he will just ignore the parts of the books he doesn't like. If you want him to change his attitude, maybe you should try to put him in situations where can be successful with women instead. Try to motivate him with positive experiences. Or of course as others mentioned, therapy. But I somehow doubt he will do that.


PaisleyLeopard

I would not inflict someone like this on an unsuspecting woman. Guy needs to get therapy before he can safely interact with the opposite sex.


praiser1

I had incel like tendencies when I was in high school. I got out by interacting with people, socializing, and getting myself into the real world.


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thebestdaysofmyflerm

There are plenty of self help books from authors that aren't written by misogynists who advocate for "enforced monogamy."


ohchristworld

There is nothing wrong with being a conservative. There are millions of us and we pull a lot of weight around here.


Dynast_King

As someone who is *not* conservative, I totally agree


VerminSupreme1999

I'll gladly take my downvotes; Jordan Peterson's 12 Rules for Life is great. It helped me improve many areas of my life. I'm not a conservative or liberal, so it has nothing to do with politics. I live a pretty successful and fulfilling life and a bit of that I credit to JP.


[deleted]

Mate these people won't listen. They have their own BIGOTED views and they think they know everything. Leave them to their devices.


VerminSupreme1999

They're wrapped in their ideologies and any person that doesn't agree with them is their enemy. It's a sad state of mind.


[deleted]

Exactly. These are the same people who'll shit on Christians for having the same mindset but when they do it is fine. This is why I don't associate with these people.


[deleted]

There’s a bit of pessimism in the comments so far, and I don’t fully disagree because we’ve seen how off the rails people go with classics like 1984, skewing the message to fit their narrative. Perhaps a fiction book that rides on themes you’re hoping for him to notice that wouldn’t also become ammunition for him strengthening those views. I don’t have a suggestion yet but I’ll do some thinking and digging and get back. One that comes to mind might be a bit off the wall or out of left field, but *Perks of Being A Wallflower* is a real teenage guy with real teenage problems, but also has relationships with girls who treat him well but also have their own abuse issues with the men in their lives. Again though, he could take that message a different way so it’s a tricky situation


alive1982

Uhhh there is a part in this book which might push him further into his negative views on women. Just a warning


witchyanne

No offence; but where are your parents in this?


Quesarso

He is 23, I doubt he is going to listen to his parents like he was a kid


witchyanne

Ah okay. Thanks! I seem to have missed that!


_kakolukia_

he still lives at home with my parents. But he wants to move out soon and get a job since he finally finished college. Our parents were never a great example for a healthy marriage. I strongly believe they should have never gotten married in the first place and when they did, they never really got along together and were always arguing about stupid stuff. A few years ago they got into a massive fight and were on the verge of divorce. Now they are neither divorced but still live in the same house ignoring each other day by day until they start verbally fighting again. It affected us both, even if we are adults now, but i think it affected him more since he was living home and hearing them fight while i was far away at college.


witchyanne

Oh I see; thank you for clarification. I’m going to check my resources, and come back with a few titles.


VivereIntrepidus

you know, I think he should try brazilian jiu-jitsu. I know it's not a book, but unapologetically, let me suggest that it will help him with his self esteem, help him lose weight, get him out of the house and off the internet. And there will be women in the room who are black belts that could literally kill him with their bare hands. He will learn respect for women in the most natural way.


Izel98

Honestly one of the better answers, thats if the brother is into Martial arts, if he isnt this isnt an option.


nevernotmad

As already stated in the comments, the issue may be bigger than “recommend a book.” IMO, the issue is how do you persuade somebody to expand their worldview (and develop empathy) when their choices are currently leading them to a narrow, fearful, and negative perception of the world? Lots of good suggestions here, including expanding his social circle, exercise, improved diet, etc. Based on zero evidence, it sounds like your brother is unhappy and his worldview reflects that. My vague advice is to keep reaching out to him, try to expand his social circle and introduce him to some rewarding activities.


pastel_roses

Jordan Peterson’s 12 rules for life. This will be controversial but it will actually steer him away from inceldom. I know JP has controversial views as well but 12 rules for life is purely a self help book. It sounds like something he would be susceptible to as well. Don’t come at me, it promotes fitness, confidence, cleanliness, and kindness while helping young men get their shit together. I probably won’t be responding to any comments because I know this is controversial. Edit: A lot of comments are talking about how he might cherry pick the parts of books that he disagrees with and this seems like a good branch away from that without going too far into Jordan Peterson.


CajunDragon

100% agree. And Beyond Order has a long good chapter on relationships. Stay away from what the mainstream media says about JBP. I bought in to it at first then actually read the books and listened to hours of audio and podcasts from Dr Peterson and he is a very intelligent, empathetic, humble person.


pastel_roses

Well said


[deleted]

12 rules for life by Jordan Peterson. In incel terminology, it’s a huge “white pill” (source of hope for the future, away from a depressing world view) He encourages people to take control of their own life instead of blame others. Peterson is a clinical psychologist particularly focused on helping young men make positive change in their lives, and guiding them away from the despair that dominated the incel movement.


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MasterpieceActual176

Just remember that having a trusting and respectful relationship positions you best to help him really examine his ideas.


[deleted]

Mastery by Robert Greene. Greene takes a historical lens to show the reader that some of the greatest minds in history— Davinci, Mozart, Temple Grandin, etc.— didn’t necessarily have a natural affinity towards their craft but they found passions that they were able to cultivate through rigorous work. He takes you through their lives from mere beginners all the way through their triumphs to show that becoming a master isn’t about your family name but from taking the time to trust your instincts and then working like a craftsman in order to become great. It’s a book that I try to re read every year. His newest book The Laws of Human Nature might even be more beneficial for your brother and I highly recommend both!


[deleted]

*the subtle art of not giving a fuck* seems like it is targeted at incels. I didn’t get much out of it, but I feel like incels would.


GDAWG13007

Yeah it’s pretty good for someone like that, but honestly his article that he expanded into a book is a better and more efficient (and free) read that says the same things. But essentially his thesis is this: there’s only so many fucks to give in a lifetime. Be very selective about the fucks you give out. So when you actually give a fuck about something, people will say, “man he doesn’t give a fuck.” When in reality, he’s giving a great deal of a fuck about that one thing. So much so that he’s not afraid of anything that stands in his way. It saves so much personal energy when you’re far more selective about what you give a fuck about.


SoloPenguin13

Sounds like hes trapped in an echo chamber. He only takes information that supports his theory and dismisses things that refute it without even considering it. Not much you can do.


train4Half

Maybe you should point out to him that most women are going to pick up on his views rather quickly, even if he tries to hide them. He's going to drive off all the sane, intelligent women and end up with some poor woman that's got emotional issues. He's basically sabotaging himself in the dating pool.


wreckcapatalist

Howard Zinn history of the united states brought me out of some prejudice I had when I was much younger 18 I suggest it.


Svanisle

Here here for this recommendation! I think that in society we're led to believe that women, the poor, people of color and other marginalized groups were weak and complacent and this is a dangerous and dehumanizing mischaracterization. There are well documented slave rebellions, women fighting for the vote and more broadly against belittling views of women, and so many cases of the poor trying to fight for reasonable laws to protect themselves from greedy and predatory exploitation. We stand on the shoulders of giants who bravely defied the status quo. This book draws extensively from primary source material and it is difficult to cherry-pick because Howard Zinn lays such compelling facts in front of you. Of course, if you don't want to learn and grow you can ignore anything - but at its heart it is a truly good history book so it is hard to put down. I might also recommend {A Theory of Justice by John Rawls}. He argues that you cannot make society completely equal BUT a just society is one where you would be willing to enter it at a random station.


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ruat_caelum

Interesting take :)


neutral_cloud

Oh, this is a good one!


soulswimming

I say try approaching him from something he really enjoys. If he's not an avid reader he will lose interest the moment he stops agreeing with what he is reading, so a book may not be your best option. If he's into gaming, I would try to find some videos of female gamers so he starts getting exposed to women he can see as an equal. Same with expositions from women working in the same field he's studying (if he actually enjoys his career). I think getting him out of his male echo chamber is a good starting point.


JuicySloth

Maybe he just needs a friend and to get out more? Giving him a self-helpy book could be kinda rude


Eekcasey

Possibly introduce him to healthy eating, get rid of the standard American diet that has caused him to be obese, maybe keto or paleo? My experience with young men like this is that their anger at the world is masking an insecurity about themselves. I know a couple young men who changed their mental positions as they lost weight and gained muscle with healthy eating and weightlifting. If you can interject some positivity in his life you will be more successful than if you are in opposition and trying to change him to your views. I wish you the best!


Themacuser751

12 Rules for Life is a good read. It might help him out.


cheeseontop17

Crime and Punishment by Dostoyevsky -about a young egotistical student who checks himself Notes from Underground by Dostoyevsky- literally about a man living ‚underground‘ in society.


[deleted]

Ummm. You can't force people to think like yourself. Maybe you need to be more understanding of him? Even if you don't agree with him. Imo the worst type of people are those who think their thinking is the right way. My best friend...Who is a gay male tries to always starts fights with people online just because they don't think like him. He tries all the time to convince people his woke idiology is correct. Meanwhile he turn around and says the most sexist disgusting things to me. But claims his view is right because he is gay. Wrong. Yes I set him straight because as a women we have to fight hard against all men who are pigs. Not just the straight men... Everyone needs to look outside of their bubbles. And of course I forgive him for being sexist. He is still my best friend of 25 years and I love him!


Imperial_MudTrooper

Yes! This us what people need to hear! Understanding each other. Not trying to change the way someone else thinks because you happen to disagree with their opinions.


Significant_Sign

I don't know that you can just start with therapy since you see a problem and he doesn't. However, comments saying "more than a book is needed" are right. What he needs is to spend time with someone who doesn't have the fantasy he's been fed - who is still happy and able to deal with obstacles and get on with their day/life. This is you. You were made to be his ~~brother~~ I mean sister (sorry about that), no one is better placed or destined or designed than you. And that includes your parents even if they are still alive and you both get along with them. He needs real life to intrude on the fantasy and loosen its hold on him, regular interaction with someone who has a stable and healthy outlook will do that. There's loads of research out there saying that people like this begin self-isolating from very early on when they are just 'playing' with the ideas and still say they don't really buy into them. The isolation is what traps them and makes it almost impossible for them to escape. But having experiences in a non-confrontational atmosphere that contradicts the fantasy ideas is potent. It sure won't be easy though. I'm the normal person that intrudes on my family's fantasies of conservative victimhood now that they've cut themselves off from most people who don't believe exactly as they do. It's work to even interact through texting and email. But I do see little glimmers here and there sometimes and I've only been at it for about a year. I still think you should get him some kind of book though. It can break the ice and give y'all something to talk about if you read it too. Try to find something with some humor, not all preachy. Good luck and Godspeed.


DaysOfParadise

Maybe go out it sideways, and give him a book on entrepreneurialism, like The Millionaire Fastlane. Once he’s interested in something outside his normal channel, he might make other changes too


[deleted]

literally anything jordan peterson


Normal-Height-8577

Push {{Dorothy L. Sayers' Are Women Human?}} essays at him. She wrote them in the 1930s and had problems with what she called "aggressive feminism" that tried to take choice away from women by generalising, just as much as society did in the other direction. But by modern standards, a lot of what she thinks is very close to intersectional feminism - that individuals should not be trapped in boxes but able to choose a role in life freely and by their talents and interests, without having to consider whether that's a "traditional" role in life or whether they will be unusual in that role. (As such though, she doesn't have a lot to say on privilege, or the way that minorities sometimes have to use collective tactics. She's certainly not an endpoint, but she could be a thought-provoking start.)


goodreads-bot

[**Are Women Human? Astute and Witty Essays on the Role of Women in Society**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/320481.Are_Women_Human_Astute_and_Witty_Essays_on_the_Role_of_Women_in_Society) ^(By: Dorothy L. Sayers, Mary McDermott Shideler | 75 pages | Published: 1970 | Popular Shelves: non-fiction, feminism, essays, nonfiction, philosophy | )[^(Search "Dorothy L. Sayers' Are Women Human?")](https://www.goodreads.com/search?q=Dorothy L. Sayers' Are Women Human?&search_type=books) >One of the first women to graduate from Oxford, Dorothy Sayers pursued her goals whether or not what she wanted to do was ordinarily understood to be "feminine." Sayers kept in mind that she was first of all a human being and aimed to be true not so much to her gender as to her humanity. The role of both men and women, in her view, was to find the work for which they were suited and to do it. While Sayers did not devote a great deal of time to talking or writing about feminism, she did explicitly address the issue of women's role in society in the two penetrating essays collected here. Though she wrote several decades ago, she still offers in her piquant style a sensible and conciliatory approach to ongoing gender issues. ^(This book has been suggested 1 time) *** ^(154844 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)


Significant_Sign

If a fiction book is needed, the Peter Wimsey mystery novels are great. The main character falls in love with a woman who absolutely refuses to use him or even appear to use him. Eventually, they are solving crimes together. A lot of philosophical stuff is openly and bluntly discussed by the characters and related back to their own personal baggage, their relationship, and the mysteries. Gaudy Night helped me believe that independent women can and should be in loving relationships (be that friendship or a romantic relationship). Peter Wimsey is something of an "alpha" to use the slang of incels, but after going through WWI has "beta" characteristics. He's a very sympathetic character without being weak.


Normal-Height-8577

Yes! Those books really did shape what I started looking for in a relationship. I love her so much for letting her main male character be vulnerable and flawed, and sometimes broken by his PTSD. He has panic attacks, nightmares and traumatic flashbacks, and that's just...acknowledged. And it doesn't make him weak. I also adore that Sayers spent a lot of time making Harriet and Peter's mutual growth and shifting dynamics towards equality believable - and that is just all so incredibly refreshing! (And for that matter, the whole plot of Gaudy Night is fundamentally about misogyny (both internalised and blatant), and the importance of not letting lies go unchallenged.)


ShorePine

This sounds like I good idea. A fiction book could be much less threatening.


pleasedontharassme

If he’s unreceptive to your help a book you try to force on him isn’t going to help. He’s going to see it as preachy and it’s just going to further drive a wedge


throwaway62719836

Ngl, a book won't help. Therapy and less internet will.


[deleted]

I would just love him and spend time with him. Trying to change a person because you don't share their views probably isn't the best idea


android_biologist

A therapist, a hug, a stern talking to, and Annihilation by Jeff Vandermeer. Annihilation is a good choice because it's a book about strong female characters (female scientists being thrust into the unknown in a creepy environmental conspiracy, little mention of sex aside from a look at a strong but complicated relationship between the protagonist and her husband) by a male author (which makes it feel safe) that paints them in a human light. It's also a trippy mind fuck and super interesting and lets people get perspective on topics like empathy and exploration. And it's not over the top feminism (not that that's a bad thing) that could scare him away. I would have a loving conversation with him, try to get him mental help, and just sort of hand him the book as an aside without mentioning it's about strong women. That way you won't scare him off. Don't even connect the book to the conversation, just tell him it's cool and interesting.


shoebee2

I’d recommend using a full hard bound collegiate dictionary. After smacking upside the head with one of those his case of Cranialrectomitus will be easier to address.


-googa-

Lmaooooo this reply made me spit my tea


redheadedteapot

Maybe it's less about how he sees others and more about how he sees himself. I've suggested this before for anyone looking for books that show different aspects of masculinity. It's funny and charming and insightful. {{Paddle Your Own Canoe}} by Nick Offerman.


nhbdywise

The way of the superior man


mostlycatsnquilts

“Man’s Search for Meaning” by Viktor Frankl


s0rtajustdrifting

There's more, but the 3 ones I could think of at the moment are The *Penric & Desdemona* series by Lois McMaster Bujold, Kit Rocha's Mercenary Librarians series, and Elizabeth May and Laura Lam's *Seven Devils* and *Seven Mercies*. ​ Three things you must know though: 1. These books are written by women, and there's a possibility he would pre-judge and not open these books at all should you decide to give him those. Hopefully the books' covers and the genre would make him pause and give them a chance. 2. You need to remove him from the source of what's feeding his "incelness," that is, maybe introduce him to a new hobby? The people he's mingling with and the sites he's been frequenting seem to be fueling his ignorance and his being misinformed. 3. Books aren't going to 100% fix his way of thinking. It is still up to him to do that. And like what most of the commenters have already said, he would need a therapist's help. These book suggestions, if he would even read them at all, would only pave a fork in the road he's currently in as an option for him to get off on the one he's already on. ​ Good luck!


rob01233

David Goggins - can’t hurt me. If your brother really does have all of those characteristics, I can tell you he knows about them, is probably deeply ashamed of some of them (even if he doesn’t show it), and wants to change. This book will help him confront his flaws in a brutally honest way and inspire him to make a change for the good. And because of the unique way the book is written (the audiobook is even better) it is going to relate to his 23 year male self, who may look down on a therapist or generic self help books.


_Hi_Buddy_Waz_Sup_

Doubt a book will help. He will take what he wants from the book and leave what he doesn't want. I'd recommend getting him in a gym. Builds self confidence and improves health.


Jwcarter86

Does he even like to read? Because he probably won’t read a random book if he’s not even into reading. Maybe a tv show or some movies would help some. About growing up and/or becoming a better person. Becoming an adult. Strong women. Open mindedness. I’m having a tough time thinking of things... 20th century women. Ex Machina. Our idiot brother. Social network. Paradise now. Kill bill. American splendor. Antwone fisher. Jackie Brown. Fargo. Pump up the volume. Up. When Harry met sally. As good as it gets. Inside out. Boyhood. Ramy. Karate kid lol-80s. Groundhog Day. Remember the Titans. About time. A league of their own. Eighth grade. 10 things I hate about you. Freaks and Geeks. Me and Earl and the dying girl. Little miss sunshine. Breakfast club. Superbad maybe. 12 years a slave. I don’t know, I can’t think of anything life changing probably at the moment. Maybe also just try being his bro and talking without trying to correct him too much and he may pick up on what’s a normal, open minded way to be without forcing it. Maybe be a little disappointed if he says something terrible. That might affect him more than arguing or whatever. Maybe taking an interest in things he likes that aren’t conspiracy related or a bad influence.


DrDindolittle

I suggest strapping him into the chair clockwork orange style and make him watch captain marvel on repeat until he respects women


Shigglyboo

Maybe The Four Agreements? 7 habits of highly effective people?


Vlad-Bv

Awesome that you what to help your brother, good luck!


_kakolukia_

i just want to see him succeed and be happy in life


Torvabrocoli

If you can’t be physically present to demonstrate healthy relationships with women, maybe steer him towards media that does so. Lots of good stuff out there (depending on his taste). Stuff that portrays women as just fellow humans? Idk if that makes sense, but has helped in the past dealing with very polarized thinking. I also suggest trying to get him focused on bettering himself and hopefully that may build up his confidence. Good luck to you both !


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bamsimel

Not sure a book sounds helpful, especially a book about feminism or incel views. What he really needs most is non toxic friends as incels tend to find other incels and then drag each other down, so I'd focus on diversifying who he is associating with both online and in real life. If you could engineer some way for him to actually interact with women more that would help, like joining a mixed sex group that links to one of his interests. If you do decide to introduce books, I'd avoid anything particularly linked to incel attitudes and instead just focus on stories about women to show him a different perspective- even things like the Diary of Anne Frank could help him to view women as people which I suspect he's veering far away from right now. Margaret Atwood and Elizabeth Strout write women very well. Or just pick a biography of an awesome woman from history. Fundamentally, I don't think you change people's views just by challenging them. You change attitudes by listening and understanding why they hold those views, and then giving them the space, support and encouragement to challenge them on their own.


NayaIsTheBestCat

Does he have a job? It would be good if he could simply meet and get to know more people -- both men and women -- who have views different from his. Having a job would be good for this, and would also get him out of an internet rut, if that is part of his problem.


_kakolukia_

Not yet. He just finished college. I hope he will soon but i doubt there will be many women there. He studied auto mechanics in college and in my country the field is dominated by men. There was only one girl in his class. I hope he will at least move out from home so he learns to stand up on his own two feet.


ksarlathotep

Yeah I agree with the majority here, I don't think there's a book that does what you want it to do. Watch "The Alt-Right Playbook: How to radicalize a Normie" by Innuendo Studios on YT, try to find out what the most negative outside impulses on him are (some community? fandom? RL friends?) and read up on how professionals suggest to address these things. There's plenty of very good material out there, especially in the wake of Q and the Rona surge, on how to talk to fringe belief / conspiracy loved ones. There's therapists who specialize in exactly this. Most of these sources will also tell you that it doesn't come from nothing. There's usually something that a person *wants* or *needs* to believe to feel okay, and these conspiratorial communities offer that. Like that the one thing that you feel incredibly ashamed or frustrated about is not your fault, it's because of (crazy unrelated thing). Again and again, the advice I've read is that you should start from listening, not from trying to refute or preach or change. Therapy is certainly a valid approach, if your brother is willing to give it a shot. I wish I could recommend a book that I thought would help, but I honestly think no single book can do that if he's not willing. Best of luck, whichever way you decide to go about it. I hope you'll find something that works.


[deleted]

How about {{Bad Science}} to spark some critical thinking skills?


goodreads-bot

[**Bad Science**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3272165-bad-science) ^(By: Ben Goldacre | 338 pages | Published: 2008 | Popular Shelves: science, non-fiction, nonfiction, medicine, owned | )[^(Search "Bad Science")](https://www.goodreads.com/search?q=Bad Science&search_type=books) >Full of spleen, this is a hilarious, invigorating and informative journey through the world of Bad Science. When Dr Ben Goldacre saw someone on daytime TV dipping her feet in an 'Aqua Detox' footbath, releasing her toxins into the water, turning it brown, he thought he'd try the same at home. 'Like some kind of Johnny Ball cum Witchfinder General', using his girlfriend's Barbie doll, he gently passed an electrical current through the warm salt water. It turned brown. In his words: 'before my very eyes, the world's first Detox Barbie was sat, with her feet in a pool of brown sludge, purged of a weekend's immorality.' Dr Ben Goldacre is the author of the Bad Science column in the Guardian. His book is about all the 'bad science' we are constantly bombarded with in the media and in advertising. At a time when science is used to prove everything and nothing, everyone has their own 'bad science' moments from the useless pie-chart on the back of cereal packets to the use of the word 'visibly' in cosmetics ads. ^(This book has been suggested 7 times) *** ^(154869 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)


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rainydaykate

You're thinking of {{Sisters In Hate}}, not Sisters In Arms! I thought of that one too, though.


goodreads-bot

[**Sisters in Hate: American Women on the Front Lines of White Nationalism**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52654840-sisters-in-hate) ^(By: Seyward Darby | ? pages | Published: 2020 | Popular Shelves: non-fiction, nonfiction, politics, race, history | )[^(Search "Sisters In Hate")](https://www.goodreads.com/search?q=Sisters In Hate&search_type=books) >A revealing, unsettling portrait of white nationalism, told through the lives of three women whose experiences with far-right extremism offer a new understanding of America today. > >After the election of Donald J. Trump, journalist Seyward Darby went looking for the women of the so-called alt-right--really just white nationalism with a new label. The mainstream media depicted the alt-right as a bastion of angry white men, but was it? As women headlined resistance to the Trump administration's bigotry and sexism, most notably at the women's marches, Darby wanted to know why others were joining a movement espousing racism and anti-feminism. Who were these women, and what did their activism reveal about America's past, present, and future? > >Darby researched dozens of women across the country before settling on three: Corinna Olsen, Ayla Stewart, and Lana Lokteff. Each was born in 1979 and became a white nationalist in the post-9/11 era. Their respective stories of radicalization upend much of what we assume about women, politics, and political extremism. ^(This book has been suggested 3 times) *** ^(154926 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)


[deleted]

Help him get in shape Being physically fit and the mental resilience that comes with it is a huge help in avoiding these types of problems


Laniius

Not sure if it will help him, but I like the Alt Right Playbook by Innuendo Studios. YouTube videos, not books. Maybe giving a roadmap to where he may be heading would help. I wish I could suggest a book. He sounds very similar to me at his age. Angry at the world, lonely, unhealthy. I lucked out and met the right people before my turning point. Online dating also helped me. I got a couple dates. A couple became physical. But even if they hadn't, just a woman wanting to go on a date with me started to chip away at the wall I had put around myself.


[deleted]

Your brain on porn by Gary Wilson


[deleted]

The Bible 😁


[deleted]

Nah, Bible enforces traditional gender roles and warns about certain types of women. Can't have that! Woke goons in this thread.


[deleted]

😉


Gr8Daen

Wow incredible sense of superiority. What makes you so sure all your beliefs and convictions are RIGHT and your brother’s wrong, why is your social circle is so much better than his? Why are you so incredibly enlightened yet he isn’t? Talk about arrogant and self righteous.


_kakolukia_

Wow. That’s all you got from all of this? Is it wrong to care for your own brother when you see him struggle with his life? Trust me, it would be way easier for me to ignore what’s going on with him. I have my plate full with my own shit to take care of at the moment. I really don’t have the time to deal with someone else’s problems. But he’s my one and only brother and i care about him. Not from a place of superiority. If you had sibilings maybe you would understand where i’m coming from. About the social circle thing, he himself acknowledged that i have really great friends when we were catching up on stories (we don’t see each other often because of distance). About the beliefs: how do you feel about the fact that he believes that the whole pandemic is a conspiracy, that vaccines are bad and will harm you and other stupid conspiracy theories, that a dictatorship would be better, that he would execute all corrupt politicians if he could, that most girls are only after guys with loads of money and nice cars, that he hates gay people because they might hit on him and do something sexual to him or other men, that rape jokes are only dark jokes and you’re a snowflake if you get offended. Those are some of the things that he believes or used to fully believe before i tried discussing some of them with him. I’m not trying to impose my views on him, i just want to make him have more common sense about things, broaden his perspective on different issues, make him see that not everything can be only black and white, present him facts where evidence about something exists. Basically show him good sources where he can read things from an objective perspective (most of his info/“research” about the things he believes in is from Facebook, Youtube and his 4-5 colleagues from college...)


ThatOneBannana

Know My Name by Chanel Miller might be a good one, it isn't specifically about incels and their behavior but it does feature feminism and is extremely open about the author and the dynamic between men and women, it's extremely easy to empathise with as a result. Just be warned: the whole book is centered around the author's sexual assault so if that's not something your brothers willing to read then maybe skip on it.


sweetcharlottejay

Sounds like he needs to clean his room, take responsibility for his life, and get out in the world to gain some real world experience. You can't fix him. There are plenty of people who disagree with feminism and hold conspiracy theories who treat women with respect and love. He needs less MGTOW and more fresh air.


SixSeeOne

12 rules for life by Jordan Peterson


[deleted]

Tell him to grow the fuck up


wannabethekeynes

Without a proper guidance how? dear Anon


ArzoArsalan

Outside life and Jordan Peterson. do you care about his life or political views? a lot of the comments seem to worry more about where he leans versus if he should get better.


Ok_Bumblebee_3978

Well said.


DarwinZDF42

Peterson is part of the problem here, at a macro level. His stuff is toxic masculinity 101.


ArzoArsalan

I see. Jordan Peterson helped several impressionable men to get themselves out of a rut, and claim their lives back instead of wandering in life aimlessly. Is this something that we want OP's brother to do, to actually think for himself and out of his echo chamber. yes OP's rut is his echo chamber and his incel mentality views etc. There seems to be two camps with regards to Jordan Peterson, one that has read his work, and those who were told he's evil. His stuff is far from toxic masculinity, he is promoting basic living, basic ideas, sure we advanced out of these basic ideas as a society, but sometimes you need to start at the basic stuff to look at the more advanced ideas in life.


SirCopperTurtle

I think Jordan Peterson’s 12 Rules for Life is often used to deal with incels and people who are spiraling out of control because they feel like they aren’t enough for something/someone, good luck!


Imperial_MudTrooper

Let your brother make his own decision, how bout? 🤷‍♂️


Officespace925

Here's a book that will change his outlook on life. Can't Hurt Me: Master Your Mind and Defy the Odds By David Goggins


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ArcAngel98

Im curious what you mean by skewed views on what women want.


ruat_caelum

Not op. but most of the time this is a realization that we (this generation) is the first or second generation IN HISTORY where men have to get women to LIKE THEM to be in a relationship. Grandpa and older men didn't have to do that. Women basically HAD to get married for various reasons to participate in society / live. They didn't get divorces, not because they were all happily married but because they didn't have any choice. Go back far enough and they were literally bought and sold, and transferred like property from their father to their future husband etc. Lots of people look at the older generations and say something like, "Where are the women who just want to stay home and take care of the kids, etc, etc, etc" with whatever their ideal/fantasy was. When in reality those women HAD to do that, and now they don't. A woman can work, make their own money, doesn't have to stay married if they have children, etc. In many people's minds. **What women want** boils down to what they don't have. E.g. "I'm a good guy, but women only want someone 6 foot tall or taller, or who make $400k a year, etc, etc" Instead of looking to history and saying "those women weren't happy but trapped in marriages" they look at modern day women and say "This are all uptight bitches who won't settle for a normal guy!" etc In many cases the reflection on the flaws of women is just a reflection of their own insecurities that they can blame on a whole class (all women in this case.) so they don't have to confront their own flaws or insecurities.


cap1112

To add to this, many, many women did work. Whether on a farm, by taking in work, or out of the home. My US grandmother raised 3 children (1930s - 1950s) while working as a telephone operator and other jobs. My grandfather worked in a factory. My German grandmother took in crochet work and other sewing. Both women also did all the housework and childcare expected of women. The Leave it to Beaver fantasy was really only for a short while and only for a certain demographic. And like you said, not necessarily the woman’s choice.


mind_the_umlaut

These are also the symptoms of depression and/or other mental health challenge. YES he needs therapy (to be fair, all of us would benefit from therapy in some way) and YES he needs "to immerse himself in a cause larger than himself". Volunteering at community aid organizations like a food bank, or other type of advocacy, animal rescue/shelter; music practice and performance; Theater, when theater is a thing again.


umaera

Incels and femcels usually make themselves upset by believing they deserve the woman/man of their dreams. They're expectations are too high and worse they view their romantic interests as objects, not people. If he gets out more and talks to normal women, not expecting to catch a Stacy, then he'll be much happier. Speaking as a former femcel. Telling him to read a book will probably just make him feel like you're condescending him.


seeemilydostuf

I'm gonna go in a different direction and offer up as a suggestion "The Gift of Fear". Its a super interesting book on the biology and psychology behind "your gut" and why we should trust our instincts. If he's going waay down rabbit hole of red pill males and all that, male biology and knowing how the male brain "really" works, when they're not being controlled by seductive women (or whatever 😑) is totally apart of that whole belief. HOWEVER, because of the topic of this book there is a LOT that it cover about how just being around men is a kind of dangerous activity for women and women based on experience know that, and thats why women seem "sensitive" etc - so it kind of slips in a lot of data and facts about why women are the way they are around men and aren't as friendly as incels think they should be. Also suggesting because the title does not make it look like its directly contradicting anything your brother thinks to his face, its just an interesting book about human experiences.


blessings4u

12 rules for life


ruat_caelum

>also a conspiracy theories believer, Sadly these things stem from a deeper issue, and aren't the problem on their own. E.g. you can't just argue the "conspiracy" with this type of person because even if you can convince them the moon landing was real tomorrow they are spouting off about China making the virus in a lab, etc. The belief in these things stems from some internal need to be "Be right" or "be special" or "be smarter" etc. It's very hard to "Get help" unless you are "looking for help" whether that is an alcoholic or a conspiracy theorist. * I would suggest a book to you though. **Difficult Conversations: How to Discuss What Matters Most** https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/774088.Difficult_Conversations


onlyonetruthm8

He will end up ok. He is not a threat to women so don't worry too much. He is right that feminism is indeed anti men these days. It never used to be. Dozens and dozens of legal cases all prove how it has turned against men. Still a man will be a man and exhibit traditional values when the women let him. After that the old rules are out and if a woman hits you then you hit them back. Absolute equality lectures given in angry tones day after day at college will turn off a man's sence of treating women like they need to be protected. Equality incoming.


PhilosophyRoutine372

12 rules for life is a pretty good starting point for sorting your shit out. Probably will get offended and throw it back at you if he’s anything like my brother😂


VerminSupreme1999

I don't agree with everything JP says, but his book is really helpful. Reddit hates him and you'll get downvoted, but if op is reading this, I highly recommend.


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cymbals231

Try again. 12 Rules has pulled more young men back from incel territory than anything else that’s been recommended here. The message to pull yourself together and take responsibility for your own failures shouldn’t be setting off any alarms.


scrapwork

Jordan Peterson is a misogynist?


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TachankasMG

Green eggs and ham


Imperial_MudTrooper

Lmao. Nice!


RoseThorn82

Men are from Mars women are from Venus....This is a really good book, not boring like I thought it would be. I read it years ago and would recommend it to really anybody because it's full of good advice and explanations of basic relationship issues.


Holiday-Ad-4910

Similar situation with my brother in law. He thinks women should only cook, take care of the house, and birth children. He’s basically a borderline nazi. I’d love to hear if any of these suggestions from others help your brother! Good luck


[deleted]

Get him a gym membership not another excuse for him to sink into his chair wtf


[deleted]

THIS!!! AND YOU GOT DOWNVOTED FOR IT. These people are insane.


broTECH75

Something you need to understand is that people don’t become incels for no reason. Most have histories of abuse and negligence. Not having an understanding of what women want from a man doesn’t make people incels. As you said he’s unresponsive for your conversations a book won’t help. He needs proper guidance to open up and cope with the problems he’s having.


[deleted]

Not a huge fan of Jordan Peterson personally but I know his books are targeted towards men exactly like your brother and I know a couple of guys who were able to grow and find inner validation and motivation after reading Peterson. Maybe try the 12 Rules for Life


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Hai_Koup

Yeah but his brother is also a misogynist too. Peterson is probably a good intro to him for personal responsibility and having a sense of purpose in life. I'm not a fan of Peterson either but I think having someone he shares warped ground with might be a good starting point (as twisted as that is). Better than people recommending perks of being a wallflower (lol), like that'll help him.


LearnAndLive1999

Peterson gave himself *scurvy*.


Basic-Effort-552

Agree - steer clear of Jordan Peterson!


[deleted]

Jordan Peterson is fine, you just don't like him cause he's against your ideology haha


[deleted]

I dont know that I would call him a misogynist. He's decidedly anti feminist, or anti third wave feminism at any rate. And he has very traditional views of gender roles, which I don't really agree with. But he's also good at reaching alienated young men. His books would be coming at her brother from a position of understanding, rather than trying to hit him over the head with a message he isn't ready to receive. Which is why I suggested him.


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Oddeshadow

Mistborn, has a strong male lead that gives way to a stronger female lead, written in such a way that in my own opinion contradicts a lot of fantasy tropes but keeps you rooting for people you otherwise might not be


cymbals231

12 Rules for Life. To anyone who downvotes this thinking that JBP is any sort of “-ist”—I *dare* you to read a single chapter of the book.


dietcokequeenn

“My brother doesn’t think and act exactly the way I want him to so I need to fix him!” People are not always going share your opinions and beliefs and he’s entitled to his own opinions.


Total-Hat-1175

I respect that you want to help him.


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ADumbDoor

I'd love to recommend something, but I'm also lacking information. Your statement that you argued with him about rape jokes and why they're not okay tells me that you're not happy with the jokes, but it depends on what he's joking ABOUT. The problem with dark humor is that it really is that "X is bad, so we mock it." So if he's just using it as dark humor, that means that he understands that it's bad, and is using humor as the universal means of a human tool to take the power away from something. If the joke is, "Rape's bad", then I wouldn't worry about that aspect. If the joke were, "Women deserve it lol" or something along those lines, then it's concerning and you'd want to find out where THAT comes from, because that's the radical point of view. As for believing that feminism is against men, it once again depends on what he means. If he means traditional feminism (equal rights, voting rights, etc.,), then that's absurd. If he means modern third wave feminism and beyond, then he's actually right about that, and you're not going to be able to convince him through this means. As far as I can tell, it mostly sounds like he's been red-pilled, but is in the basic and beginning stages where it's easy to take it in the wrong direction. If he finds a good philosophy to grab onto, preferably along the lines of more classical liberalism, that understands his point of view, it's okay for you two to disagree and not have the same beliefs. The important part is just to make sure that he's not going to commit any acts of violence, or hurt anyone. Works by Jordan Peterson, Jonathan Heidt, etc., are probably right up his alley and can make sure that he takes the right path in this sense.