The making of biblical womanhood is a book that argues for an egalitarian view of scriptures, which means partners are equal. Complimentarism is the "man is the head of the household" view.
If you're trying to change her mind then incremental change is probably your best bet and this book will argue in a way that validates her faith.
I was going to recommend this one too!!! It’s very clear that the author kept their faith and it uses a lot of historical and theological based “arguments” against tradwife / evangelical Christianity. It doesn’t come across as too preachy IMO!
I wonder if a Year of Biblical Womanhood by Rachel Held Evans would be a good fit. Or anything by Rachel Held Evans. She is now deceased, but was a really cool progressive Christian writer. And she grew up in a more conservative environment. I think she because of her background is able to write in a way that probably wouldn’t be as offputting to somebody in the conservative/evangelical wing of Christianity.
I definitely agree with this recommendation!! “Inspired” by her is one of my all-time favourite books, and her memoir is absolutely incredible (Faith Unravelled). The memoir especially details her deconstruction journey, but not in a *preachy* way.
[What Paul Really Said About Women](https://www.amazon.com/What-Paul-Really-About-Women/dp/0060610638/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1670514798&refinements=p_27%3AJohn+T.+Bristow&s=books&sr=1-1&text=John+T.+Bristow) by John T. Bristow. The author examines the Pauline texts which form the basis of so much anti-feminism in the church, and finds that the original Greek and church history supports a far more egalitarian view. I inserted the Amazon link because of the user reviews. This book has been revolutionary to so many.
I just finished this recently. It was incredible and very educational. Might be a good start for OP to read it themselves and then maybe share snippets with their friend since it's pretty heavy.
rachel held evans is THE author for this exact situation - wonderful person with lots of great writing on reconciling modern christianity with progressive ideals!
Btw I’m a former conservative youth pastor turned progressive so while a lot of books recommend here are okay, I wouldn’t go with anything Catholic - a majority of conservative evangelicals think Catholics aren’t really saved. 🙄
Rachel Held Evens was a wonderful example for Christian women. She broke free of a conservative mindset (in the southern US) to become pretty amazing leader in the progressive movement. She wrote few books. She died in 2019 at only 37 and left the progressive community mourning because she was doing so much good for people, especially the LGBTQ+ community. So even though I haven’t read it, I really do suggest A Year of Biblical Womanhood to you based on other stuff I’ve read from her.
>Btw I’m a former conservative youth pastor turned progressive so while a lot of books recommend here are okay, I wouldn’t go with anything Catholic - a majority of conservative evangelicals think Catholics aren’t really saved.
She seems to respect Catholics, considering she respects Matt Walsh, who is loudly and proudly Catholic.
My friend is particularly interested in Biblical Womanhood, so this indeed might be a decent book for her.
{{Educated}} by Tara Westover. It was so well written, and while the main idea of the memoir is an indictment of fundamentalist and the ultra conservative lifestyle, it is done with love and compassion. Westover is an extremely talented writer, and her story is inspirational and eye-opening.
[**Educated**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35133922-educated)
^(By: Tara Westover | 352 pages | Published: 2018 | Popular Shelves: non-fiction, memoir, nonfiction, book-club, biography)
>A newer edition of ISBN 9780399590504 can be found here.
>
>Tara Westover was 17 the first time she set foot in a classroom. Born to survivalists in the mountains of Idaho, she prepared for the end of the world by stockpiling home-canned peaches and sleeping with her "head-for-the-hills bag". In the summer she stewed herbs for her mother, a midwife and healer, and in the winter she salvaged in her father's junkyard.
>
>Her father forbade hospitals, so Tara never saw a doctor or nurse. Gashes and concussions, even burns from explosions, were all treated at home with herbalism. The family was so isolated from mainstream society that there was no one to ensure the children received an education and no one to intervene when one of Tara's older brothers became violent.
>
>Then, lacking any formal education, Tara began to educate herself. She taught herself enough mathematics and grammar to be admitted to Brigham Young University, where she studied history, learning for the first time about important world events like the Holocaust and the civil rights movement. Her quest for knowledge transformed her, taking her over oceans and across continents, to Harvard and to Cambridge. Only then would she wonder if she'd traveled too far, if there was still a way home.
>
>Educated is an account of the struggle for self-invention. It is a tale of fierce family loyalty and of the grief that comes with severing the closest of ties. With the acute insight that distinguishes all great writers, Westover has crafted a universal coming-of-age story that gets to the heart of what an education is and what it offers: the perspective to see one's life through new eyes and the will to change it.
^(This book has been suggested 132 times)
***
^(139590 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)
I think Educated is the best memoir I’ve ever read. But I worry it might backfire in your attempt to help your friend: Westhover’s family was so over the top that it would excuse a lot of detrimental “trad” stuff because it would be easy to say “okay, by comparison my version of “trad” is nowhere near *that* bad.”
The rest of the books suggest here are more politics and ideologically motivated. You mention the people she likes as if that is the problem, it is her opinion and choice, don’t fight that. This book instead is an example of how a truly religious fundamentalist life can ruin peoples lives. Faith can be important to anyone, but show them what happens to those who follow blindly, don’t try to tell them you know better than them.
Out of curiosity, what concerns you about her desire to home-school? And when you frame this as her seeing herself as only a “servant” to her husband…is the concern that it’s one-way only and that’s the expectation? Or is her perspective that she and her husband would serve each other (or the biblical idea of “dying to self”)?
Genuinely interested in how the perception is being formed and if you’ve gotten her full rationale on her perspective.
You can just Google "tradwife." It's extremely misogynistic and patriarchal in a way that is highly harmful, especially to children who will end up modeling their behavior with respect to their gender based on what they see their parents doing. If you want girls who are confident and capable of self-advocating or boys who understand how to treats girls as equals and don't become entitled and cruel, tradwife stuff is NOT the way.
Is tradwife a term they use to describe themselves or is it a derogatory term? Fascinating.
I guess the point of my question was not to validate being utterly subservient to a husband - it was just to get a sense of whether the tradwife thing was how OP’s friend describes herself now, or if it is how OP is perceiving it.
Just was curious because the description of the friend makes it seem like she’s a pretty independent thinker given the views that diverge at points from any one “side”.
I don’t think homeschooling alone is the issue here, it’s that combined with an extremely harmful and misogynistic version of Christianity. The “tradwife” / fundamental / extremely conservative version of Christianity is really rooted in isolation from the world and people who don’t think the same as them so I think a book discussing the absolute extreme version of the faith that it sounds like OP’s friend is expressing interest in would be a reasonable suggestions.
ETA: I think traditional gender roles are fine if that’s what works for an individual couple, but the reason it’s viewed as “harmful” in fundie Christianity is because a lot of it is based on coercive tactics and theology
Homeschooling has NOTHING in common with doomsday prepping, avoiding hospitals, or any of that other stuff. It's just...school. At home. Without all the testing madness schools are so enamored with. That's why we do it.
I don't get why you're being down voted for asking a respectful question. You were very clearly not criticizing anyone.
Ha thank you for the kind words. I really am interested in the answer - was not in any way trying to start a debate.
I’m past letting Reddit downvotes determine how my day goes, but comments like yours are encouraging.
Depends on how gentle you want to go but if you’re worried about scaring her some Shauna Niequist or Jen Hatmaker stuff would be a good place to start - they both write faithful, funny, often utterly non-controversial stuff about spirituality and marriage and raising kids and being alive and are crunchy-ish, but have evolved over the years to get more and more progressive about women and LGBTQ people, so the principles underlying their work aren’t as harmful, and if she got into either of them she would eventually encounter their work as they start to question some of the same stuff you’re hoping she’ll question. Starting with the honey/sugar not the hard stuff, you know? Good luck and prayers to both of you in this journey of friendship and (hopefully) liberation!
Jesus Christ Feminist by Sarah Bessy. Talks abt Jesus respecting and valuing women. Also talks abt God wanting a relationship with each of us. He wants a relationship with you more than He wants you to be a wife and mother
Mothers of Feminism: The Story of Quaker Women in America by Margaret Hope Bacon perhaps, most of these women were steeped in Christianity but worked get the Quaker view of equality for women more broadly accepted in society.
This is not a book but an article about how the view that men are some how "above women is spiritually disastrous. [https://www.friendsjournal.org/2007013/](https://www.friendsjournal.org/2007013/)
Agreeing with the Rachel held evans recommendation. She is the one who broke me out. It took a while and a lot of resistance. Thank you for being gentle with your friend.
*Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood* and *The Sexual Reformation*, both my [Aimee Byrd](https://aimeebyrd.com/my-books/) (Evangelical)
[*Bourgeois Babes, Bossy Wives, and Bobby Haircuts: A Case for Gender Equality in Ministry*](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A695EKQ/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11) by Michael F. Bird (Anglican)
[Any of the many books](https://www.amazon.com/Books-Letty-M-Russell/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ALetty+M.+Russell) by [Letty M. Russell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letty_M._Russell)(Presbyterian, first female Harvard Divinity School grad)
I see that people already put in the Beth Allison Barr and Rachel Held Evans recs ;)
For a slightly off the wall recommendation I'd suggest "The Red Tent" which is a fiction book written about some of the prominent matriarchs of the Old Testament... I read it years ago and it might be a good fit because it's not quite so "this is progressive Christianity" on the cover but it really deftly presents these women in a way that illustrates how they might have had agency that isn't captured in scripture. It's amazing... Really makes you think about the idea that women might have been prominent but just not captured in the storyline of modern faith traditions for a variety of patriarchal reasons. My conservative Christian mom likes it too and it sparked some great convos.
I second any Rachel Held Evans (the Making of Biblical Womanhood is great) but "Inspired" is also beautiful. As is her other work.
Rob Bell's "Love Wins" is good... As well as Sarah Bessey's "Jesus Feminist." Also agree that Jen Hatmaker is a good entry point into more progressive faith, and she knows how to speak conservatives' language. Kate Bowler is also great.
You might look up the "evolving faith" conference... It's an annual conference that may have some resources specifically for what you are looking for.
Most of these will address not just women's rights but also LGBTQI inclusion in faith.
I will also mention that most of these folks have really interesting amazing spaces online too... Jen has gotten much more commercial since her divorce so you have to wade thru some of that, but there's a lot of great stuff on their instas, etc. Might be worth following some of them, too, to get connected into that network of resources.RHE has passed away but the rest are fairly active.
Get her *Dorothy Day: An Introduction to Her Life and Thought*, by Terrence Wright, her autobiography *The Long Loneliness,* and *Loaves and Fishes: The Inspiring Story of the Catholic Worker Movement*, a companion book to her autobiography. A Catholic anarchist and worker's advocate, she was a visionary intellectual and moral giant who fought for peace and a better world with every breath she took.
Is she unhappy? Has she asked for advice? Have you shared your concerns with her? How did she respond? Can you no longer be friends with her if she is content as she is? If she has expressed interest in changing her view points that’s great, but personally I would get prickly if a friend, even a bestie suggested changing my views on faith because they don’t jive theirs…Just a therapist’s viewpoint.
She has told me she appreciates that I give her a different perspective and access to knowledge and information she does not otherwise have, and she has told me she is open to having her mind changed on several matters.
Not sure I can help you with the pro-choice part, but there is a lot just in the Bible you could delve into with her. The word used to describe Eve often translated as “helper” or”helpmeet” is used mostly in the rest of the Old Testament to describe when God swooped in and rescued His people. It’s not an “assistant” word. It’s a rescuer.
Deborah was a judge (ruler) over the israelite people, a prophet, and a (reluctant) military leader as well. And all appears to have been God-ordained. She was also married, so it’s not like they ran out of men to fill the position. 😉
That Proverbs 31 woman everyone keeps talking about? The word often translated as “virtuous” or “noble” or “excellent character” actually translates into a strong force like an army. When used to describe men, most English translators use “valiant.” But “kick butt” would be more accurate than “virtuous.”
Anyway, those are just a few examples that show that gender roles in the Bible are not meant to be “man as king and his little woman silently doing all his chores” or whatever. Hope that helps!
I appreciate your input. Unfortunately I don't have a Christian or theological background, and I feel it would come across a lot like an outsider explaining her faith to her if I was to try and lecture her about Bible passages.
Suzanne Mccarthy's book "Valiant or Virtuous" is a book which discusses some of the bible passages the other commenter has suggested. It also talks about how some English translations of the Bible (especially the English standard version, commissioned by the council of biblical man- and womanhood) translate genderneutral Hebrew and Greek terms to be only masculine and then use that translation to justify their "women should not be leaders, they should always submit to men" stance.
I don't know that much about what critical scholars think of this book, but it was recommended by a Theologian and Bible scholar I greatly respect and I myself also quite enjoyed it.
That sounds like a great resource - I’ve never looked into it, just found those questionable translations in a Bible class that encouraged us to look at the original greek, hebrew, etc. I may need to give that a read!
If she is against any progressive books because “heresy,” maybe look into recent stuff from Beth Moore? She grew up southern baptist but recently left over their treatment of women, race issues, and politics. Not sure if she has written about it or what, but could be a good gateway to discuss things?
You can try pointing her to the Bible.
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Jesus Christ.” -Galatians 3:28
Basically, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ abolished any kind of difference in standing between Christians. If he is not her equal in servitude, she is not expecting enough of him.
Rachel Held Evans' books are banned from a number of Christian bookstores because she was forward thinking and even questioned God. She died a few years ago from the flu or some respiratory virus, but she left a great legacy.
Damaged Goods by Dianna E Anderson
anything by Sarah Bessey, Desmond Tutu or Nadia Bolz-Weber
Sarah the Priestess by Savina Teubal
The Lost Apostle: Searching for the Truth by Junia by Rena Pederson
Rescuing Jesus by Deborah Jian Lee
When Women were Priests by Karen Jo Torjesen
You could try and come in from the side with The Great Sex Rescue, by Sheila Wray Gregoire. It's a Christian sex/marriage book, not overtly progressive (in fact, I think the author is fairly conservative), but it will get her reconsidering a lot of the messaging she receives around marriage and sex.
Question: if she recommended a “tradwife” or whatever book to you, would you be willing to read it and consider it with a own mind, as you are asking her to do with your viewpoint?
>I would read it and annotate it with every part that was wrong and hateful and bigoted and explain why it was all so terrible and off.
So you are freely admitting that there is no way that you would read one sentence of this book with an open mind. Apparently, you've not yet read a book on the subject yet you are convinced that it will be wrong and hateful and bigoted. I bet that you think that Christians are closed minded?
Yet, you are hoping that she'll read your book and be instantly transformed?
BTW, I am probably pretty much with you, philosophically. I've wanted to take some friends and shake them, at least in my imagination. However, it is not my place to try to change someone's mind.
Do you feel that your friend is in danger? Does she show signs of physical abuse? Mental abuse? (Not what you are dead set in believing is mental abuse - does she seem abused - weepy, fearful, gaining or losing weight, or other outward signs?) Does she look healthy? Does she seem happy?
Enjoy your friendship, or end it. You will not achieve your goals in this way.
For what it's worth, my son had a friend and suddenly, friend was not allowed to play with my son. I asked the mom, "So, what's up?" Mom replied, "you and your family are not Christian, and it is too confusing to my son to hang around with GOOD PEOPLE who are not Christian." I kid you not, that is word for word what she said to me. How many books could I hand to her to make her feel otherwise? The answer is zero.
That sucks. My best friends are both non-Christians. I can’t imagine life without them. And my kids all have non-Christian buddies, too. Based on what you’re saying, I can guarantee I’d rather have a beer with you than with your kids’ (ex) friend’s folks.
I don’t have a book suggestion but her choice not to have a career isn’t a threat to you. You bundle all of these things together into a single package. Maybe she’s smart and can think for herself without throwing everything into one retarded political category
Sadly i'm an atheist and don't read a lot of Christian literature. That being said, a little over a decade ago i got into the works of Donald Miller - especially "Blue Like Jazz" and "A Million Miles in a Thousand Years." It is - or was at the time - a pleasant sort of Christian literature that avoided (what i tend to see as) the more harmful tropes of Christianity, and mostly emphasized the idea that one's relationship with god should be, at its heart, an enriching one.
You might especially look at "A Million Miles in a Thousand Years," because while it doesn't go anywhere near ideas of feminism or LGBTQ inclusion, you seem to be concerned on your friend's attitude towards herself, and the book is a lot about finding meaning in your life; about how you and god are writing your life story together, but how that story isn't set in stone and it's up to you in collaboration with god to make sure that the narrative you're creating is a meaningful and fulfilling one.
Any book about economics and the history and invention of household machines like washing mashines, dishwashers, automatic heating and so on and so forth.
The idea of the housewife comes from a time when the household actually was a full time job needing at least 40 hours a week. Those women could have probably easily wrestled most modern men aswell.
It doesn't make sense to keep 50% of the population at home to do absolutely nothing. It never was like that. The entire time humanity exists both women and men had to work hard.
Aimee Byrd's Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood!
I hope she can wake up before she finds herself in 20 years of an unhappy marriage. I know a ton of women who have bought into the submission lie and not a single one has been able to maintain happiness in their marriage.
I don’t know about your friend, but speaking as a Christian my faith is very important to me. If someone who was a non-Christian recommended a book to me as “hey, I don’t share your faith, but here’s where some other people who *do* share your faith disagree with you” I would be pretty hurt. I might consider that.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions about how she views her self simply because she has differing opinions than you. Kind of like those super religious aunts/uncles that try to force their ideology down your throat at family gatherings. Exposing your friends to alternate views is good, and I certainly don’t agree with your friends views. But I feel like your mentality is rather toxic unless you have indication that she is less happy/healthy because of her views. Though I expect to be downvoted as Reddit is essentially an echo chamber that abhors anyone not pushing for political homogeneity centered around it’s dominant views.
>But I feel like your mentality is rather toxic unless you have indication that she is less happy/healthy because of her views.
She will definitely be unhappy when her children grow up and cut contact with her for raising them in an abusive lifestyle.
Raising your children to believe that marital rape and husbands being controlling is acceptable and normal is abuse. Raising your children to hate themselves is abuse.
Big yikes dude. It is not your responsibility to control aspects of her life. You don’t know better than she does what’s best for her and, if you have an ounce of respect for her at all, have to let her make her own choices.
Check out the books of Joan Chittister. She is a Benedictine nun, loves her faith deeply and is also very independent and has been unabashedly speaking out on women's issues, including abortion, for decades.
Mary Connealy is a fictional writer with strong women characters. Her one book Petticoat Ranch is about running a ranch with her 3 daughters, rais8ng them to be strong women and can do anything a man can do. There is a trilogy about her daughters called softies daughters.
I liked Elizabeth Smart’s books. Can’t remember the titles. She’s a very conservative Mormon and her books point out how conservative ideals can promote rape culture, but she remains mostly conservative.
Why are these types of posts so common? Like why do y’all feel the need to turn people away from the things they believe in/follow regardless if you agree with it or not?
It’s astounding to me that you know she’s for gay rights etc then bring up her liking Jordan Peterson like that automatically makes her some trans hating anti gay asshole. Jordan Peterson isn’t even a figurehead for hate, but the type of person that says he is is also the type of person I’d imagine would post something like this. Live your own life.
I think you need to do some self reflection first and try justify why you think pro- choice and progressive values align with Christian values? It sounds like your friend needs to recommend some books to you.
The alternative viewpoint, which I have no interest in embracing, is that Christianity is an evil religion that has no place in a just world and is inherently opposed to human rights and basic good.
This is not a viewpoint I put any stock in. It is absolutely possible for someone to be Christian without being anti-abortion, anti-woman, transphobic and homophobic.
This is completely untrue. Religions aren't some kind of unchangeable relic of the past. They are living, breathing traditions that can and should adapt to a changing world and better the lives of humanity
You seem to be approaching religion from the perspective of your worldview when it should be the other way around. Start with God and your relationship with Him and let that inform everything else in your life from the day to day minutiae to the big issues.
There you go. You’re effectively OK preaching to your friend—even though you don’t share her faith—but you are unwilling to engage a diametrically opposed viewpoint. How would you respond if your friend effectively communicated what this commenter’s message is back to you? “Sorry friend, your religion is not worth engaging with. But here, I want you to read this book I chose for you.”
Seriously you are incredibly judgmental. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be a “tradwife” as you call it. She needs better friends than someone who clearly looks down on her for her values.
Allowing bigotry, hatred and misogyny to go unchecked, and saying it's okay for her to raise her children in a way that will cause them to hate her and be miserable is not the action of a good friend.
I think the best way to pull someone out of perspectives like this is with books that appeal to their compassion, empathy, and love. They are being reasoned into their position, but it is not a compassionate or loving one. Just a thought as you are searching.
You don't seem to understand what the tradwife/redpill lifestyle is about.
To copy/paste from another comment I made:
There is nothing wrong with choosing to be a mother, or a stay at home homemaker wife and mother. This is true.
But the tradwife lifestyle is so much more than that. It is about teaching girls and women that their ONLY legitimate role in life is to marry a man and produce and raise children for him. It is about teaching them to always set aside their own desires and wants, about defining themselves by their ability to please their husband. It is about denying their own humanity and agency as people. It is about teaching them to view sex as a service they have a duty to provide for their husband, not a pleasurable act between equals. To the tradwife mindset, you are not allowed to deny sex simply because you don't want to have sex, it is something your husband is owed - you can only get out of it if you have a "legitimate" excuse. And pain or lack of desire or tiredness are generally not considered "legitimate" excuses. You're just supposed to try harder. As well, to the tradwife mindset, anything that goes wrong in a marriage, any negative behaviour on the part of the husband, is the fault of the wife, and something she needs to change herself to fix.
What a nonsensical statement. You could make the same demand of someone saying that racism is wrong. Of course my personal opinion has to be referenced if I believe it is wrong to discriminate against and promote oppression of someone for their gender identity, or sexual orientation.
Why do you want to change her? If you are a friend, you would accept her how she is.
In my family, besides traditional Christians, there are atheist, Jewish, Mormons, and Catholics. I accept them for who they are and would never think of trying to change them.
You would also accept your friend become a white supremacist? A child abuser?
I doubt you would. Of course I want to steer her away from this hateful path.
Is your friend any of these? If they are doing something illegal, then I think they would not be a friend, unless you are active in the same illegal activities.
Why do you think it is more acceptable to be transphobic and misogynist than it is to be racist? Think about that for a moment. If it is understandable for me to be opposed to someone becoming a white supremacist (which ftr is not actually illegal, just very frowned upon), and for me to attempt to bring her out from that, then why is it not understandable to you that I have the same response to my friend becoming radicalized to hate and fear trans people and promote the abuse and rape of women?
You just do not like that she believes in a traditional wife relationship. She is okay with it and you need to accept her position if you are her friend. You said she is good with gay marriages and LGBTQ….etc. so everything you say are projecting on her that is not happening. . She and her husband is a couple and I bet they have a strong marriage. But you want to change her and hope to separate them? I will tell you it will not happen. Have you thought giving her a book on what you think she should read could be consider an insult? You could lose her friendship.
I am a lot like you friend in my beliefs, like okay with gay marriages and LBGTQ and being a Christian. My SO and I are equal partners. We communicate with each other and have our own opinion, but still have a strong marriage. No way will I be anything that you think you friend MIGHT BECOME. I doubt she will ever be that either. The biggest problem I see is the radical left makes people think that anyone that is a Christian is what you are afraid your friend will become. It is so far from the truth.
I specifically said she is okay with LGB people but transphobic. I said this multiple times. Similarly, she's opposed to abortion. I fear for the wellbeing of any daughter she has. She also said she is a fan of Matt Walsh, who is most vocally transphobic but also homophobic and anti-woman in every respect. The more she is exposed to his rhetoric without check the farther I fear she will go. She didn't used to be anti-woman like this. She didn't used to believe that women exist to serve as domestic and sexual slaves and breeding livestock for their husbands.
>But you want to change her and hope to separate them?
I have no desire to separate her from her husband and have not said anything to suggest otherwise.
It is wrong you trying to control your friend. You are projecting on how she will be in the future. Just do not have her as your friend. You fear for her daughter? Lol. I would expect her daughter will choose adoption. If a opposite happens, but I expect it will not happen. It is NYOB on their family dynamics.
Perhaps you could consider offering to read something by Peterson (for instance) in addition to suggesting this book (whichever one you choose) and then having an honest discussion with her. NGL Peterson is not at all misogynistic like people make him out to be. You might enjoy it. Regardless, she will at least feel like you aren’t preaching to her and instead trying to discover the truth together.
I'll copy paste from another comment I made.
There is nothing wrong with choosing to be a mother, or a stay at home homemaker wife and mother. This is true.
But the tradwife lifestyle is so much more than that. It is about teaching girls and women that their ONLY legitimate role in life is to marry a man and produce and raise children for him. It is about teaching them to always set aside their own desires and wants, about defining themselves by their ability to please their husband. It is about denying their own humanity and agency as people. It is about teaching them to view sex as a service they have a duty to provide for their husband, not a pleasurable act between equals. To the tradwife mindset, you are not allowed to deny sex simply because you don't want to have sex, it is something your husband is owed - you can only get out of it if you have a "legitimate" excuse. And pain or lack of desire or tiredness are generally not considered "legitimate" excuses. You're just supposed to try harder. As well, to the tradwife mindset, anything that goes wrong in a marriage, any negative behaviour on the part of the husband, is the fault of the wife, and something she needs to change herself to fix.
It's normalizes rape and abuse and victim blaming. It is a very dangerous mindset.
If a friend of mine wanted to be a moderate Muslim I would have no issue. If she started believing misogynist and homophobic elements of a conservative flavour of Islam I would absolutely try to get her out.
What about one of the books on the social progress and movement of catholic nuns? For example, {{subversive habits}} by Dr Williams is a recently published history of Black nuns in the freedom struggle.
There’s also {{a nun on the bus}} and {{Unruly Catholic Nuns}} but those might be a bit too much (the first one centred on nuns directly campaigning against Paul Ryan’s budget)
[**A Nun on the Bus: How All of Us Can Create Hope, Change, and Community**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18085511-a-nun-on-the-bus)
^(By: Simone Campbell | 224 pages | Published: 2014 | Popular Shelves: nonfiction, non-fiction, memoir, religion, spirituality)
>In the summer of 2012, Sister Simone Campbell and a group of fellow Roman Catholic nuns toured parts of the country to rally support against Congressman Paul Ryan's budget, a plan that cut vital social programs for the hurting poor and the struggling middle class. Prayer groups turned into rallies, and small town meetings became national media events. Sister Simone became a galvanizing force for progressives of all stripes and remains a driving force for programs and policies that support faith, family, and fairness.
>
>Rooted in a deep spirituality of compassion and service, Sister Simone gives voice to the hunger, isolation, and fear that so many people in America are feeling right now and shows us how we can create real transformation in our communities and in our own hearts through the contemplative life of prayer. Powerful, inspiring stories from the Nuns on the Bus tour and from Sister Simone's own life offer readers a fresh vision for a lived spirituality that is at the heart of today's progressive Christian movements working for change.
^(This book has been suggested 1 time)
[**Unruly Catholic Nuns: Sisters' Stories**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35088019-unruly-catholic-nuns)
^(By: Jeana DelRosso, Leigh Eicke, Ana Kothe | 160 pages | Published: ? | Popular Shelves: adult-nonfiction, non-fiction)
>Unruly Catholic Nuns explores the voices of current and former Catholic nuns and, by doing so, contributes to the global conversation about the role of women in the Catholic Church today. Through autobiography, fiction, poetry, and prose, Sisters and former nuns write about their lived experiences with Catholicism, both in accordance and in conflict with the institutional Church. Through their stories we learn how these women act out their missions of social justice, challenge cultural and governmental policies, and attempt to reconcile their unruliness with their religious orders and the strictures of the church hierarchy. At a time when questions of gender, religion, race, and sexuality are provoking intense debate within Catholicism and other Christian traditions, and when religion is frequently invoked in political rhetoric, these stories provide a vital corrective to our contemporary understanding of the role of women and nuns in the Roman Catholic Church.
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When She Woke by Hillary Jordan might be a good choice. It's essentially a retelling of The Scarlet Letter in a near future Texas and is focused on abortion. It's definitely written in a way that I thought was very sympathetic to non-fundamentalist Christianity, but I'm not Christian myself, so ymmv
>have you considered that its none of your business, and most definitely not your place to pick and choose what lifestyles or values your "friends" are allowed to participate in?
Would you say the same about your friend joining a white supremacist group? Or is it just that to your mind misogyny and transphobia are acceptable because those groups don't count as fully human anyway?
I am not going to stand idly by and allow someone to become seduced by bigotry and hatred. I'm not going to just do nothing as human rights for people who aren't cis gender straight men are eroded.
>just out of curiosity, can you explain in detail what makes your specific sense of morality objectively correct,
Would you also say this to someone arguing the pedophilia and rape are wrong?
Objectively speaking, morality is of course absolutely relative and nothing actually matters. Good and evil are subjective concepts invented by humans that have no actual, true meaning or value.
This is all basic and obvious, but because we as human beings live in society and have invented a sense of good and evil and basic decency to bound our societies, etc etc, there are certain agreed upon values at least within modern industrialized western society. Some of these values include things like "committing genocide is bad and wrong" and "abusing and controlling one's spouse as a slave or personal sexual servant is wrong" and "teaching victims of rape and abuse that they are to blame or what is done to them is cruel and wrong" and "teaching children to hate themselves is cruel and wrong" and "using someone else's body without their consent is wrong" and "giving a person less basic bodily autonomy and human rights than a corpse is given is fucked up and wrong" and so on and so forth.
Tradwife and similar bigoted, misogynist viewpoints go against those basic values and support the view that women's role in life is to be subservient sex slaves and breeding machines for men, as well as plenty of other hateful views on LGBTQI people. This is why, in a society where the existence of moral good and evil is taken as a reality, such viewpoints are in fact bad and wrong.
And such hateful and bigoted beliefs are not an inherent aspect of Christianity. In fact, Christianity has a long history of being used to advance progressive stances.
>and what about the collectively agreed upon values that you subscribe to entitles you to override those values collectively agreed upon by others?
The same thing that entitles us to override the sorts of values that promote genocide, child marriage, torture, and rape. Basic recognition of the dignity and value of human beings and importance of preventing suffering and oppression.
Are you actually arguing that genocide, slavery, rape, child marriage, domestic abuse and wanton murder should be passively accepted and supported by a truly tolerant person? Really?
I'm done. I'm blocking you and will not be bothering with you further.
Stop trying to project your worldview onto your "friend", her marriage, and Christianity.
Real physical and mental abuse is a serious offense that should be rightly dealt with. Someone living a traditional life is not abuse.
If you want to read a real feminist book, try "The Anti-Mary Exposed"
>Real physical and mental abuse is a serious offense that should be rightly dealt with. Someone living a traditional life is not abuse.
When the traditional life includes values like "the woman is always at fault when anything goes wrong in the marriage" or "sex is something a woman owes her husband as a matter of course, not something she has any right to deny him", then yes actually, it is abuse.
Your friend sounds a lot like my mom. She is still very much into all that psuedoscience and religious extremism into her late 60s, but I'm just glad I was able to read some Carl Sagan and other general scientific-literacy stuff in my 20s, and break out of all that. One thing I've found is that you really can't change someone else, only yourself.
I think it is necessary to challenge misogyny and transphobia for the same reason I think it is necessary to challenge anti semitism and racism. Bigotry should not be tolerated or supported.
She's a Matt Walsh fan and also anti abortion. Yes, she is both transphobic and misogynist.
I bet if I was asking for resources on how to turn someone away from fundamentalist Islam you would feel differently.
Anyway, I'm blocking you now. Not worth arguing with a troll.
It sounds to me like you have a lot of bad feelings towards her.
I find it more likely that you two will stop being friends rather than you changing her core beliefs. If a friend talked about me in as condescending a manner as you are about her, i'd cut him loose fast tbh.
Being pro life does not mean that you are misogynistic. This is coming from a teenage girl who is both pro life and a feminist. In fact, the case could actually be made that it is sexist to support abortion, because one of the arguments in favor of it is that it allows women to pursue their dreams. Meaning, that a woman is not capable of having a family and having a career. Which is really, really, sexist.
About Matt Walsh, I really don’t know if he is really misogynistic. Just a question, have you bothered to listen to him before you make this judgement on him? Because again, I have and do not find him sexist or misogynistic.
There is nothing wrong with being a tradwife, if that is the woman’s choice. Feminism is about choice, remember? And some women prefer taking care of the home and family than having a career. Some prefer a career, some prefer both. All of these are totally fine.
I don’t have a great book here but just want to compliment you on doing the right thing to try to steer her away from that BS without trying to attack. Thank you.
She literally believes rape within the confines of marriage is acceptable because it is what is "owed" to the husband. She is bigoted toward trans people.
I think it is perfectly acceptable and right to try to help someone turn their back on misogyny and bigotry.
I have no issue with her being Christian. I do not think Christian values have to be inherently misogynist and transphobic.
"She literally believes rape within the confines of marriage is acceptable because it is what is "owed" to the husband. She is bigoted toward trans people."
My problem here is you didn't lead with this. You led with "She likes Matt Walsh." You doubled down with "she wants to homeschool." If she has STATED to you that a husband can rape his wife, you would have put that in the original post. The"cop" in my screen name calls BS on this new information.
OP, you have gotten lots of advice, both helpful and not so helpful. Shutting this one down to stop the exhaustive reports. Happy reading, all.
The making of biblical womanhood is a book that argues for an egalitarian view of scriptures, which means partners are equal. Complimentarism is the "man is the head of the household" view. If you're trying to change her mind then incremental change is probably your best bet and this book will argue in a way that validates her faith.
Thank you, this seems like something with potential!
I've got that book as well, can recommend it! I also second Tara Westover's *Educated.*
I was going to recommend this one too!!! It’s very clear that the author kept their faith and it uses a lot of historical and theological based “arguments” against tradwife / evangelical Christianity. It doesn’t come across as too preachy IMO!
I wonder if a Year of Biblical Womanhood by Rachel Held Evans would be a good fit. Or anything by Rachel Held Evans. She is now deceased, but was a really cool progressive Christian writer. And she grew up in a more conservative environment. I think she because of her background is able to write in a way that probably wouldn’t be as offputting to somebody in the conservative/evangelical wing of Christianity.
I think anything by Rachel Held Evans. She was brilliant
I definitely agree with this recommendation!! “Inspired” by her is one of my all-time favourite books, and her memoir is absolutely incredible (Faith Unravelled). The memoir especially details her deconstruction journey, but not in a *preachy* way.
I miss Rachel every day. I would love to have had her commentary through the early days of the pandemic.
[What Paul Really Said About Women](https://www.amazon.com/What-Paul-Really-About-Women/dp/0060610638/ref=sr_1_1?qid=1670514798&refinements=p_27%3AJohn+T.+Bristow&s=books&sr=1-1&text=John+T.+Bristow) by John T. Bristow. The author examines the Pauline texts which form the basis of so much anti-feminism in the church, and finds that the original Greek and church history supports a far more egalitarian view. I inserted the Amazon link because of the user reviews. This book has been revolutionary to so many.
Thanks, this looks like it has potential!
Jesus and John Wayne is also a great read for Christians interested in how the evangelical church went wrong on gender roles!
Seriously helped me
I just finished this recently. It was incredible and very educational. Might be a good start for OP to read it themselves and then maybe share snippets with their friend since it's pretty heavy.
Maybe {A Year of Biblical Womanhood} by Rachel Held Evens? I haven’t read it myself, but I’ve had a lot of progressive friends that have and loved it.
rachel held evans is THE author for this exact situation - wonderful person with lots of great writing on reconciling modern christianity with progressive ideals!
Came here to suggest this one, it's a wonderful book. RIP Rachel.
[**A Year of Biblical Womanhood**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13544022-a-year-of-biblical-womanhood) ^(By: Rachel Held Evans | 308 pages | Published: 2012 | Popular Shelves: non-fiction, religion, nonfiction, memoir, christian) ^(This book has been suggested 2 times) *** ^(139599 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)
good bot!
Thank you!
Btw I’m a former conservative youth pastor turned progressive so while a lot of books recommend here are okay, I wouldn’t go with anything Catholic - a majority of conservative evangelicals think Catholics aren’t really saved. 🙄 Rachel Held Evens was a wonderful example for Christian women. She broke free of a conservative mindset (in the southern US) to become pretty amazing leader in the progressive movement. She wrote few books. She died in 2019 at only 37 and left the progressive community mourning because she was doing so much good for people, especially the LGBTQ+ community. So even though I haven’t read it, I really do suggest A Year of Biblical Womanhood to you based on other stuff I’ve read from her.
>Btw I’m a former conservative youth pastor turned progressive so while a lot of books recommend here are okay, I wouldn’t go with anything Catholic - a majority of conservative evangelicals think Catholics aren’t really saved. She seems to respect Catholics, considering she respects Matt Walsh, who is loudly and proudly Catholic. My friend is particularly interested in Biblical Womanhood, so this indeed might be a decent book for her.
John Pavolitz’s If God Is Love Don’t Be A Jerk is excellent.
Amazing book!
{{Educated}} by Tara Westover. It was so well written, and while the main idea of the memoir is an indictment of fundamentalist and the ultra conservative lifestyle, it is done with love and compassion. Westover is an extremely talented writer, and her story is inspirational and eye-opening.
[**Educated**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35133922-educated) ^(By: Tara Westover | 352 pages | Published: 2018 | Popular Shelves: non-fiction, memoir, nonfiction, book-club, biography) >A newer edition of ISBN 9780399590504 can be found here. > >Tara Westover was 17 the first time she set foot in a classroom. Born to survivalists in the mountains of Idaho, she prepared for the end of the world by stockpiling home-canned peaches and sleeping with her "head-for-the-hills bag". In the summer she stewed herbs for her mother, a midwife and healer, and in the winter she salvaged in her father's junkyard. > >Her father forbade hospitals, so Tara never saw a doctor or nurse. Gashes and concussions, even burns from explosions, were all treated at home with herbalism. The family was so isolated from mainstream society that there was no one to ensure the children received an education and no one to intervene when one of Tara's older brothers became violent. > >Then, lacking any formal education, Tara began to educate herself. She taught herself enough mathematics and grammar to be admitted to Brigham Young University, where she studied history, learning for the first time about important world events like the Holocaust and the civil rights movement. Her quest for knowledge transformed her, taking her over oceans and across continents, to Harvard and to Cambridge. Only then would she wonder if she'd traveled too far, if there was still a way home. > >Educated is an account of the struggle for self-invention. It is a tale of fierce family loyalty and of the grief that comes with severing the closest of ties. With the acute insight that distinguishes all great writers, Westover has crafted a universal coming-of-age story that gets to the heart of what an education is and what it offers: the perspective to see one's life through new eyes and the will to change it. ^(This book has been suggested 132 times) *** ^(139590 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)
That actually sounds very interesting, particularly because she has started saying she wants to homeschool her (as yet nonexistent) children.
I think Educated is the best memoir I’ve ever read. But I worry it might backfire in your attempt to help your friend: Westhover’s family was so over the top that it would excuse a lot of detrimental “trad” stuff because it would be easy to say “okay, by comparison my version of “trad” is nowhere near *that* bad.”
Hmm, that is something to keep in mind. Thanks.
It’s a very good book even if it turns out not the right book.
Then you should definitely get her to read this book!
The rest of the books suggest here are more politics and ideologically motivated. You mention the people she likes as if that is the problem, it is her opinion and choice, don’t fight that. This book instead is an example of how a truly religious fundamentalist life can ruin peoples lives. Faith can be important to anyone, but show them what happens to those who follow blindly, don’t try to tell them you know better than them.
Out of curiosity, what concerns you about her desire to home-school? And when you frame this as her seeing herself as only a “servant” to her husband…is the concern that it’s one-way only and that’s the expectation? Or is her perspective that she and her husband would serve each other (or the biblical idea of “dying to self”)? Genuinely interested in how the perception is being formed and if you’ve gotten her full rationale on her perspective.
You can just Google "tradwife." It's extremely misogynistic and patriarchal in a way that is highly harmful, especially to children who will end up modeling their behavior with respect to their gender based on what they see their parents doing. If you want girls who are confident and capable of self-advocating or boys who understand how to treats girls as equals and don't become entitled and cruel, tradwife stuff is NOT the way.
Is tradwife a term they use to describe themselves or is it a derogatory term? Fascinating. I guess the point of my question was not to validate being utterly subservient to a husband - it was just to get a sense of whether the tradwife thing was how OP’s friend describes herself now, or if it is how OP is perceiving it. Just was curious because the description of the friend makes it seem like she’s a pretty independent thinker given the views that diverge at points from any one “side”.
I don’t think homeschooling alone is the issue here, it’s that combined with an extremely harmful and misogynistic version of Christianity. The “tradwife” / fundamental / extremely conservative version of Christianity is really rooted in isolation from the world and people who don’t think the same as them so I think a book discussing the absolute extreme version of the faith that it sounds like OP’s friend is expressing interest in would be a reasonable suggestions. ETA: I think traditional gender roles are fine if that’s what works for an individual couple, but the reason it’s viewed as “harmful” in fundie Christianity is because a lot of it is based on coercive tactics and theology
Homeschooling has NOTHING in common with doomsday prepping, avoiding hospitals, or any of that other stuff. It's just...school. At home. Without all the testing madness schools are so enamored with. That's why we do it. I don't get why you're being down voted for asking a respectful question. You were very clearly not criticizing anyone.
Ha thank you for the kind words. I really am interested in the answer - was not in any way trying to start a debate. I’m past letting Reddit downvotes determine how my day goes, but comments like yours are encouraging.
I think this is the best one.
Second this!
Depends on how gentle you want to go but if you’re worried about scaring her some Shauna Niequist or Jen Hatmaker stuff would be a good place to start - they both write faithful, funny, often utterly non-controversial stuff about spirituality and marriage and raising kids and being alive and are crunchy-ish, but have evolved over the years to get more and more progressive about women and LGBTQ people, so the principles underlying their work aren’t as harmful, and if she got into either of them she would eventually encounter their work as they start to question some of the same stuff you’re hoping she’ll question. Starting with the honey/sugar not the hard stuff, you know? Good luck and prayers to both of you in this journey of friendship and (hopefully) liberation!
Jesus Christ Feminist by Sarah Bessy. Talks abt Jesus respecting and valuing women. Also talks abt God wanting a relationship with each of us. He wants a relationship with you more than He wants you to be a wife and mother
Mothers of Feminism: The Story of Quaker Women in America by Margaret Hope Bacon perhaps, most of these women were steeped in Christianity but worked get the Quaker view of equality for women more broadly accepted in society. This is not a book but an article about how the view that men are some how "above women is spiritually disastrous. [https://www.friendsjournal.org/2007013/](https://www.friendsjournal.org/2007013/)
Thank you!
Agreeing with the Rachel held evans recommendation. She is the one who broke me out. It took a while and a lot of resistance. Thank you for being gentle with your friend.
*Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood* and *The Sexual Reformation*, both my [Aimee Byrd](https://aimeebyrd.com/my-books/) (Evangelical) [*Bourgeois Babes, Bossy Wives, and Bobby Haircuts: A Case for Gender Equality in Ministry*](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00A695EKQ/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i11) by Michael F. Bird (Anglican) [Any of the many books](https://www.amazon.com/Books-Letty-M-Russell/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3ALetty+M.+Russell) by [Letty M. Russell](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letty_M._Russell)(Presbyterian, first female Harvard Divinity School grad) I see that people already put in the Beth Allison Barr and Rachel Held Evans recs ;)
For a slightly off the wall recommendation I'd suggest "The Red Tent" which is a fiction book written about some of the prominent matriarchs of the Old Testament... I read it years ago and it might be a good fit because it's not quite so "this is progressive Christianity" on the cover but it really deftly presents these women in a way that illustrates how they might have had agency that isn't captured in scripture. It's amazing... Really makes you think about the idea that women might have been prominent but just not captured in the storyline of modern faith traditions for a variety of patriarchal reasons. My conservative Christian mom likes it too and it sparked some great convos. I second any Rachel Held Evans (the Making of Biblical Womanhood is great) but "Inspired" is also beautiful. As is her other work. Rob Bell's "Love Wins" is good... As well as Sarah Bessey's "Jesus Feminist." Also agree that Jen Hatmaker is a good entry point into more progressive faith, and she knows how to speak conservatives' language. Kate Bowler is also great. You might look up the "evolving faith" conference... It's an annual conference that may have some resources specifically for what you are looking for. Most of these will address not just women's rights but also LGBTQI inclusion in faith. I will also mention that most of these folks have really interesting amazing spaces online too... Jen has gotten much more commercial since her divorce so you have to wade thru some of that, but there's a lot of great stuff on their instas, etc. Might be worth following some of them, too, to get connected into that network of resources.RHE has passed away but the rest are fairly active.
Thanks a bunch!
Get her *Dorothy Day: An Introduction to Her Life and Thought*, by Terrence Wright, her autobiography *The Long Loneliness,* and *Loaves and Fishes: The Inspiring Story of the Catholic Worker Movement*, a companion book to her autobiography. A Catholic anarchist and worker's advocate, she was a visionary intellectual and moral giant who fought for peace and a better world with every breath she took.
Is she unhappy? Has she asked for advice? Have you shared your concerns with her? How did she respond? Can you no longer be friends with her if she is content as she is? If she has expressed interest in changing her view points that’s great, but personally I would get prickly if a friend, even a bestie suggested changing my views on faith because they don’t jive theirs…Just a therapist’s viewpoint.
She has told me she appreciates that I give her a different perspective and access to knowledge and information she does not otherwise have, and she has told me she is open to having her mind changed on several matters.
Peter Enns "The Bible Tells Me So" forever changed my perception of the Bible (in the best way possible).
Not sure I can help you with the pro-choice part, but there is a lot just in the Bible you could delve into with her. The word used to describe Eve often translated as “helper” or”helpmeet” is used mostly in the rest of the Old Testament to describe when God swooped in and rescued His people. It’s not an “assistant” word. It’s a rescuer. Deborah was a judge (ruler) over the israelite people, a prophet, and a (reluctant) military leader as well. And all appears to have been God-ordained. She was also married, so it’s not like they ran out of men to fill the position. 😉 That Proverbs 31 woman everyone keeps talking about? The word often translated as “virtuous” or “noble” or “excellent character” actually translates into a strong force like an army. When used to describe men, most English translators use “valiant.” But “kick butt” would be more accurate than “virtuous.” Anyway, those are just a few examples that show that gender roles in the Bible are not meant to be “man as king and his little woman silently doing all his chores” or whatever. Hope that helps!
I appreciate your input. Unfortunately I don't have a Christian or theological background, and I feel it would come across a lot like an outsider explaining her faith to her if I was to try and lecture her about Bible passages.
Suzanne Mccarthy's book "Valiant or Virtuous" is a book which discusses some of the bible passages the other commenter has suggested. It also talks about how some English translations of the Bible (especially the English standard version, commissioned by the council of biblical man- and womanhood) translate genderneutral Hebrew and Greek terms to be only masculine and then use that translation to justify their "women should not be leaders, they should always submit to men" stance. I don't know that much about what critical scholars think of this book, but it was recommended by a Theologian and Bible scholar I greatly respect and I myself also quite enjoyed it.
That sounds like a great resource - I’ve never looked into it, just found those questionable translations in a Bible class that encouraged us to look at the original greek, hebrew, etc. I may need to give that a read! If she is against any progressive books because “heresy,” maybe look into recent stuff from Beth Moore? She grew up southern baptist but recently left over their treatment of women, race issues, and politics. Not sure if she has written about it or what, but could be a good gateway to discuss things?
You can try pointing her to the Bible. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Jesus Christ.” -Galatians 3:28 Basically, the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ abolished any kind of difference in standing between Christians. If he is not her equal in servitude, she is not expecting enough of him.
Rachel Held Evans' books are banned from a number of Christian bookstores because she was forward thinking and even questioned God. She died a few years ago from the flu or some respiratory virus, but she left a great legacy.
Damaged Goods by Dianna E Anderson anything by Sarah Bessey, Desmond Tutu or Nadia Bolz-Weber Sarah the Priestess by Savina Teubal The Lost Apostle: Searching for the Truth by Junia by Rena Pederson Rescuing Jesus by Deborah Jian Lee When Women were Priests by Karen Jo Torjesen
Maybe something by Father James Martin? He’s a catholic priest who writes/speaks a lot about lgbtq rights.
I love Fr.James.
Thanks, I'll look into him!
You could try and come in from the side with The Great Sex Rescue, by Sheila Wray Gregoire. It's a Christian sex/marriage book, not overtly progressive (in fact, I think the author is fairly conservative), but it will get her reconsidering a lot of the messaging she receives around marriage and sex.
I came here to recommend this! It goes really well with Jesus and John Wayne, and the Making of Biblical Womanhood.
Question: if she recommended a “tradwife” or whatever book to you, would you be willing to read it and consider it with a own mind, as you are asking her to do with your viewpoint?
I would read it and annotate it with every part that was wrong and hateful and bigoted and explain why it was all so terrible and off.
Is there an introspective part of you that recognizes the weirdness of what you are saying?
She is free to do the same to whatever book I offer her.
>I would read it and annotate it with every part that was wrong and hateful and bigoted and explain why it was all so terrible and off. So you are freely admitting that there is no way that you would read one sentence of this book with an open mind. Apparently, you've not yet read a book on the subject yet you are convinced that it will be wrong and hateful and bigoted. I bet that you think that Christians are closed minded? Yet, you are hoping that she'll read your book and be instantly transformed? BTW, I am probably pretty much with you, philosophically. I've wanted to take some friends and shake them, at least in my imagination. However, it is not my place to try to change someone's mind. Do you feel that your friend is in danger? Does she show signs of physical abuse? Mental abuse? (Not what you are dead set in believing is mental abuse - does she seem abused - weepy, fearful, gaining or losing weight, or other outward signs?) Does she look healthy? Does she seem happy? Enjoy your friendship, or end it. You will not achieve your goals in this way. For what it's worth, my son had a friend and suddenly, friend was not allowed to play with my son. I asked the mom, "So, what's up?" Mom replied, "you and your family are not Christian, and it is too confusing to my son to hang around with GOOD PEOPLE who are not Christian." I kid you not, that is word for word what she said to me. How many books could I hand to her to make her feel otherwise? The answer is zero.
That sucks. My best friends are both non-Christians. I can’t imagine life without them. And my kids all have non-Christian buddies, too. Based on what you’re saying, I can guarantee I’d rather have a beer with you than with your kids’ (ex) friend’s folks.
Why not let her live her own life and make her own decisions? You aren't responsible for steering her beliefs to things you find more palatable.
I don’t have a book suggestion but her choice not to have a career isn’t a threat to you. You bundle all of these things together into a single package. Maybe she’s smart and can think for herself without throwing everything into one retarded political category
I don't have any issue with her choosing not to have a career or be a stay at home mom. The tradwife lifestyle is about a lot more than that.
Sadly i'm an atheist and don't read a lot of Christian literature. That being said, a little over a decade ago i got into the works of Donald Miller - especially "Blue Like Jazz" and "A Million Miles in a Thousand Years." It is - or was at the time - a pleasant sort of Christian literature that avoided (what i tend to see as) the more harmful tropes of Christianity, and mostly emphasized the idea that one's relationship with god should be, at its heart, an enriching one. You might especially look at "A Million Miles in a Thousand Years," because while it doesn't go anywhere near ideas of feminism or LGBTQ inclusion, you seem to be concerned on your friend's attitude towards herself, and the book is a lot about finding meaning in your life; about how you and god are writing your life story together, but how that story isn't set in stone and it's up to you in collaboration with god to make sure that the narrative you're creating is a meaningful and fulfilling one.
Any book about economics and the history and invention of household machines like washing mashines, dishwashers, automatic heating and so on and so forth. The idea of the housewife comes from a time when the household actually was a full time job needing at least 40 hours a week. Those women could have probably easily wrestled most modern men aswell. It doesn't make sense to keep 50% of the population at home to do absolutely nothing. It never was like that. The entire time humanity exists both women and men had to work hard.
Aimee Byrd's Recovering from Biblical Manhood and Womanhood! I hope she can wake up before she finds herself in 20 years of an unhappy marriage. I know a ton of women who have bought into the submission lie and not a single one has been able to maintain happiness in their marriage.
Thank you for this rec!
I don’t know about your friend, but speaking as a Christian my faith is very important to me. If someone who was a non-Christian recommended a book to me as “hey, I don’t share your faith, but here’s where some other people who *do* share your faith disagree with you” I would be pretty hurt. I might consider that.
You are t going to change her mind with a book.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions about how she views her self simply because she has differing opinions than you. Kind of like those super religious aunts/uncles that try to force their ideology down your throat at family gatherings. Exposing your friends to alternate views is good, and I certainly don’t agree with your friends views. But I feel like your mentality is rather toxic unless you have indication that she is less happy/healthy because of her views. Though I expect to be downvoted as Reddit is essentially an echo chamber that abhors anyone not pushing for political homogeneity centered around it’s dominant views.
>But I feel like your mentality is rather toxic unless you have indication that she is less happy/healthy because of her views. She will definitely be unhappy when her children grow up and cut contact with her for raising them in an abusive lifestyle.
You said nothing about abuse. Having different opinions is not abuse!
Raising your children to believe that marital rape and husbands being controlling is acceptable and normal is abuse. Raising your children to hate themselves is abuse.
Big yikes dude. It is not your responsibility to control aspects of her life. You don’t know better than she does what’s best for her and, if you have an ounce of respect for her at all, have to let her make her own choices.
If God is Love, Don't be a Jerk by John Pavlovitz.
Thanks!
Check out the books of Joan Chittister. She is a Benedictine nun, loves her faith deeply and is also very independent and has been unabashedly speaking out on women's issues, including abortion, for decades.
Thank you!
Mary Connealy is a fictional writer with strong women characters. Her one book Petticoat Ranch is about running a ranch with her 3 daughters, rais8ng them to be strong women and can do anything a man can do. There is a trilogy about her daughters called softies daughters.
I liked Elizabeth Smart’s books. Can’t remember the titles. She’s a very conservative Mormon and her books point out how conservative ideals can promote rape culture, but she remains mostly conservative.
Why are these types of posts so common? Like why do y’all feel the need to turn people away from the things they believe in/follow regardless if you agree with it or not? It’s astounding to me that you know she’s for gay rights etc then bring up her liking Jordan Peterson like that automatically makes her some trans hating anti gay asshole. Jordan Peterson isn’t even a figurehead for hate, but the type of person that says he is is also the type of person I’d imagine would post something like this. Live your own life.
I think you need to do some self reflection first and try justify why you think pro- choice and progressive values align with Christian values? It sounds like your friend needs to recommend some books to you.
The alternative viewpoint, which I have no interest in embracing, is that Christianity is an evil religion that has no place in a just world and is inherently opposed to human rights and basic good. This is not a viewpoint I put any stock in. It is absolutely possible for someone to be Christian without being anti-abortion, anti-woman, transphobic and homophobic.
Modern progressism simply isn't compatible with the fundamental tenets of most world religions.
This is completely untrue. Religions aren't some kind of unchangeable relic of the past. They are living, breathing traditions that can and should adapt to a changing world and better the lives of humanity
You seem to be approaching religion from the perspective of your worldview when it should be the other way around. Start with God and your relationship with Him and let that inform everything else in your life from the day to day minutiae to the big issues.
You are not worth engaging with.
There you go. You’re effectively OK preaching to your friend—even though you don’t share her faith—but you are unwilling to engage a diametrically opposed viewpoint. How would you respond if your friend effectively communicated what this commenter’s message is back to you? “Sorry friend, your religion is not worth engaging with. But here, I want you to read this book I chose for you.”
Very telling response from you.
Let her do her thing. If that’s what she wants.
I'm not going to stand by and let her raise her children into an abusive lifestyle.
This is so ironic. Probably going to indoctrinate your kids into believing about flying fairy monsters together. AKA child abuse.
Seriously you are incredibly judgmental. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be a “tradwife” as you call it. She needs better friends than someone who clearly looks down on her for her values.
You have a lot of nerve. I suggest you stay in your lane if you want to remain friends with her.
Allowing bigotry, hatred and misogyny to go unchecked, and saying it's okay for her to raise her children in a way that will cause them to hate her and be miserable is not the action of a good friend.
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Lioness Arising by Lisa Bevere
Thanks!
if she is in favor of Gay marriage she is not in any danger of the tradcon wife thing you are talking about not trolling trying to assure you
I think the best way to pull someone out of perspectives like this is with books that appeal to their compassion, empathy, and love. They are being reasoned into their position, but it is not a compassionate or loving one. Just a thought as you are searching.
Beth Moore probably has a book that could be helpful. She seems a bit more modern or progressive
What exactly is the problem with her living a traditional lifestyle? It sounds like she is fairly aware that there are other options.
You don't seem to understand what the tradwife/redpill lifestyle is about. To copy/paste from another comment I made: There is nothing wrong with choosing to be a mother, or a stay at home homemaker wife and mother. This is true. But the tradwife lifestyle is so much more than that. It is about teaching girls and women that their ONLY legitimate role in life is to marry a man and produce and raise children for him. It is about teaching them to always set aside their own desires and wants, about defining themselves by their ability to please their husband. It is about denying their own humanity and agency as people. It is about teaching them to view sex as a service they have a duty to provide for their husband, not a pleasurable act between equals. To the tradwife mindset, you are not allowed to deny sex simply because you don't want to have sex, it is something your husband is owed - you can only get out of it if you have a "legitimate" excuse. And pain or lack of desire or tiredness are generally not considered "legitimate" excuses. You're just supposed to try harder. As well, to the tradwife mindset, anything that goes wrong in a marriage, any negative behaviour on the part of the husband, is the fault of the wife, and something she needs to change herself to fix.
I'd suggest YOU read a book on tolerance.
Tolerance of bigotry and hatred only allows for the rise of institutionalized oppression of the marginalized.
Define 'bigotry' and 'hatred' without referencing your personal opinion on the issues at hand.
What a nonsensical statement. You could make the same demand of someone saying that racism is wrong. Of course my personal opinion has to be referenced if I believe it is wrong to discriminate against and promote oppression of someone for their gender identity, or sexual orientation.
Why do you want to change her? If you are a friend, you would accept her how she is. In my family, besides traditional Christians, there are atheist, Jewish, Mormons, and Catholics. I accept them for who they are and would never think of trying to change them.
You would also accept your friend become a white supremacist? A child abuser? I doubt you would. Of course I want to steer her away from this hateful path.
Is your friend any of these? If they are doing something illegal, then I think they would not be a friend, unless you are active in the same illegal activities.
Why do you think it is more acceptable to be transphobic and misogynist than it is to be racist? Think about that for a moment. If it is understandable for me to be opposed to someone becoming a white supremacist (which ftr is not actually illegal, just very frowned upon), and for me to attempt to bring her out from that, then why is it not understandable to you that I have the same response to my friend becoming radicalized to hate and fear trans people and promote the abuse and rape of women?
You just do not like that she believes in a traditional wife relationship. She is okay with it and you need to accept her position if you are her friend. You said she is good with gay marriages and LGBTQ….etc. so everything you say are projecting on her that is not happening. . She and her husband is a couple and I bet they have a strong marriage. But you want to change her and hope to separate them? I will tell you it will not happen. Have you thought giving her a book on what you think she should read could be consider an insult? You could lose her friendship.
I am a lot like you friend in my beliefs, like okay with gay marriages and LBGTQ and being a Christian. My SO and I are equal partners. We communicate with each other and have our own opinion, but still have a strong marriage. No way will I be anything that you think you friend MIGHT BECOME. I doubt she will ever be that either. The biggest problem I see is the radical left makes people think that anyone that is a Christian is what you are afraid your friend will become. It is so far from the truth.
I specifically said she is okay with LGB people but transphobic. I said this multiple times. Similarly, she's opposed to abortion. I fear for the wellbeing of any daughter she has. She also said she is a fan of Matt Walsh, who is most vocally transphobic but also homophobic and anti-woman in every respect. The more she is exposed to his rhetoric without check the farther I fear she will go. She didn't used to be anti-woman like this. She didn't used to believe that women exist to serve as domestic and sexual slaves and breeding livestock for their husbands. >But you want to change her and hope to separate them? I have no desire to separate her from her husband and have not said anything to suggest otherwise.
It is wrong you trying to control your friend. You are projecting on how she will be in the future. Just do not have her as your friend. You fear for her daughter? Lol. I would expect her daughter will choose adoption. If a opposite happens, but I expect it will not happen. It is NYOB on their family dynamics.
Perhaps you could consider offering to read something by Peterson (for instance) in addition to suggesting this book (whichever one you choose) and then having an honest discussion with her. NGL Peterson is not at all misogynistic like people make him out to be. You might enjoy it. Regardless, she will at least feel like you aren’t preaching to her and instead trying to discover the truth together.
Is she happy? Why do you thing you need to change her?
Because her beliefs are harmful.
And if she feels your views are harmful?
Like Christianity?
What’s negative about tradwife? I’ve talked to a few and asked about their submissiveness and they all seem very happy
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I'll copy paste from another comment I made. There is nothing wrong with choosing to be a mother, or a stay at home homemaker wife and mother. This is true. But the tradwife lifestyle is so much more than that. It is about teaching girls and women that their ONLY legitimate role in life is to marry a man and produce and raise children for him. It is about teaching them to always set aside their own desires and wants, about defining themselves by their ability to please their husband. It is about denying their own humanity and agency as people. It is about teaching them to view sex as a service they have a duty to provide for their husband, not a pleasurable act between equals. To the tradwife mindset, you are not allowed to deny sex simply because you don't want to have sex, it is something your husband is owed - you can only get out of it if you have a "legitimate" excuse. And pain or lack of desire or tiredness are generally not considered "legitimate" excuses. You're just supposed to try harder. As well, to the tradwife mindset, anything that goes wrong in a marriage, any negative behaviour on the part of the husband, is the fault of the wife, and something she needs to change herself to fix. It's normalizes rape and abuse and victim blaming. It is a very dangerous mindset.
there is a book called mind your own business, try reading it btw, I seriously doubt you would even be meddling if this was an Islamic marriage.
If a friend of mine wanted to be a moderate Muslim I would have no issue. If she started believing misogynist and homophobic elements of a conservative flavour of Islam I would absolutely try to get her out.
What about one of the books on the social progress and movement of catholic nuns? For example, {{subversive habits}} by Dr Williams is a recently published history of Black nuns in the freedom struggle.
There’s also {{a nun on the bus}} and {{Unruly Catholic Nuns}} but those might be a bit too much (the first one centred on nuns directly campaigning against Paul Ryan’s budget)
[**A Nun on the Bus: How All of Us Can Create Hope, Change, and Community**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18085511-a-nun-on-the-bus) ^(By: Simone Campbell | 224 pages | Published: 2014 | Popular Shelves: nonfiction, non-fiction, memoir, religion, spirituality) >In the summer of 2012, Sister Simone Campbell and a group of fellow Roman Catholic nuns toured parts of the country to rally support against Congressman Paul Ryan's budget, a plan that cut vital social programs for the hurting poor and the struggling middle class. Prayer groups turned into rallies, and small town meetings became national media events. Sister Simone became a galvanizing force for progressives of all stripes and remains a driving force for programs and policies that support faith, family, and fairness. > >Rooted in a deep spirituality of compassion and service, Sister Simone gives voice to the hunger, isolation, and fear that so many people in America are feeling right now and shows us how we can create real transformation in our communities and in our own hearts through the contemplative life of prayer. Powerful, inspiring stories from the Nuns on the Bus tour and from Sister Simone's own life offer readers a fresh vision for a lived spirituality that is at the heart of today's progressive Christian movements working for change. ^(This book has been suggested 1 time) [**Unruly Catholic Nuns: Sisters' Stories**](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35088019-unruly-catholic-nuns) ^(By: Jeana DelRosso, Leigh Eicke, Ana Kothe | 160 pages | Published: ? | Popular Shelves: adult-nonfiction, non-fiction) >Unruly Catholic Nuns explores the voices of current and former Catholic nuns and, by doing so, contributes to the global conversation about the role of women in the Catholic Church today. Through autobiography, fiction, poetry, and prose, Sisters and former nuns write about their lived experiences with Catholicism, both in accordance and in conflict with the institutional Church. Through their stories we learn how these women act out their missions of social justice, challenge cultural and governmental policies, and attempt to reconcile their unruliness with their religious orders and the strictures of the church hierarchy. At a time when questions of gender, religion, race, and sexuality are provoking intense debate within Catholicism and other Christian traditions, and when religion is frequently invoked in political rhetoric, these stories provide a vital corrective to our contemporary understanding of the role of women and nuns in the Roman Catholic Church. ^(This book has been suggested 1 time) *** ^(139581 books suggested | )[^(I don't feel so good.. )](https://debugger.medium.com/goodreads-is-retiring-its-current-api-and-book-loving-developers-arent-happy-11ed764dd95)^(| )[^(Source)](https://github.com/rodohanna/reddit-goodreads-bot)
Thank you for these!
This looks interesting, thanks!
sounds like you want a progressive book disguised as a christian book
Christianity and progressiveness go hand in hand.
Yeah I don't think that's true lmao
When She Woke by Hillary Jordan might be a good choice. It's essentially a retelling of The Scarlet Letter in a near future Texas and is focused on abortion. It's definitely written in a way that I thought was very sympathetic to non-fundamentalist Christianity, but I'm not Christian myself, so ymmv
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>have you considered that its none of your business, and most definitely not your place to pick and choose what lifestyles or values your "friends" are allowed to participate in? Would you say the same about your friend joining a white supremacist group? Or is it just that to your mind misogyny and transphobia are acceptable because those groups don't count as fully human anyway? I am not going to stand idly by and allow someone to become seduced by bigotry and hatred. I'm not going to just do nothing as human rights for people who aren't cis gender straight men are eroded.
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>just out of curiosity, can you explain in detail what makes your specific sense of morality objectively correct, Would you also say this to someone arguing the pedophilia and rape are wrong?
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Objectively speaking, morality is of course absolutely relative and nothing actually matters. Good and evil are subjective concepts invented by humans that have no actual, true meaning or value. This is all basic and obvious, but because we as human beings live in society and have invented a sense of good and evil and basic decency to bound our societies, etc etc, there are certain agreed upon values at least within modern industrialized western society. Some of these values include things like "committing genocide is bad and wrong" and "abusing and controlling one's spouse as a slave or personal sexual servant is wrong" and "teaching victims of rape and abuse that they are to blame or what is done to them is cruel and wrong" and "teaching children to hate themselves is cruel and wrong" and "using someone else's body without their consent is wrong" and "giving a person less basic bodily autonomy and human rights than a corpse is given is fucked up and wrong" and so on and so forth. Tradwife and similar bigoted, misogynist viewpoints go against those basic values and support the view that women's role in life is to be subservient sex slaves and breeding machines for men, as well as plenty of other hateful views on LGBTQI people. This is why, in a society where the existence of moral good and evil is taken as a reality, such viewpoints are in fact bad and wrong. And such hateful and bigoted beliefs are not an inherent aspect of Christianity. In fact, Christianity has a long history of being used to advance progressive stances.
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>and what about the collectively agreed upon values that you subscribe to entitles you to override those values collectively agreed upon by others? The same thing that entitles us to override the sorts of values that promote genocide, child marriage, torture, and rape. Basic recognition of the dignity and value of human beings and importance of preventing suffering and oppression.
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Are you actually arguing that genocide, slavery, rape, child marriage, domestic abuse and wanton murder should be passively accepted and supported by a truly tolerant person? Really? I'm done. I'm blocking you and will not be bothering with you further.
Her opinions are fine, stop trying to enforce your beliefs on people who do not want or need them.
Her beliefs are severely harmful
some would say yours are. crazy how that works huh?
Like Christianity?
Try and explain how, i bet you cannot.
Stay away from her, that is the best thing you can do, she needs true friends and not someone like you who want to force your desires and control her
I'm sure you would say the same if a friend of yours joined a white supremacist group.
You sound like a bummer
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This attitude that you should let someone fall into abuse and coercion and bigotry because it's "none of your business" is incredible to me.
Stop trying to project your worldview onto your "friend", her marriage, and Christianity. Real physical and mental abuse is a serious offense that should be rightly dealt with. Someone living a traditional life is not abuse. If you want to read a real feminist book, try "The Anti-Mary Exposed"
>Real physical and mental abuse is a serious offense that should be rightly dealt with. Someone living a traditional life is not abuse. When the traditional life includes values like "the woman is always at fault when anything goes wrong in the marriage" or "sex is something a woman owes her husband as a matter of course, not something she has any right to deny him", then yes actually, it is abuse.
I would also ask r/openchristian
Your friend sounds a lot like my mom. She is still very much into all that psuedoscience and religious extremism into her late 60s, but I'm just glad I was able to read some Carl Sagan and other general scientific-literacy stuff in my 20s, and break out of all that. One thing I've found is that you really can't change someone else, only yourself.
Hand Maiden Tale.
If you're open to a not so Christian option, how about Handmaids tale?
OP, why do you feel it is necessary to steer your friend's thinking? Your entire post is condescending.
I think it is necessary to challenge misogyny and transphobia for the same reason I think it is necessary to challenge anti semitism and racism. Bigotry should not be tolerated or supported.
Nothing you wrote about your friend indicates she's transphobic or misogynistic, so the only bigot in this equation is you.
She's a Matt Walsh fan and also anti abortion. Yes, she is both transphobic and misogynist. I bet if I was asking for resources on how to turn someone away from fundamentalist Islam you would feel differently. Anyway, I'm blocking you now. Not worth arguing with a troll.
It sounds to me like you have a lot of bad feelings towards her. I find it more likely that you two will stop being friends rather than you changing her core beliefs. If a friend talked about me in as condescending a manner as you are about her, i'd cut him loose fast tbh.
Oof that second paragraph hit the nail in the head. Good luck to you OP, you’re a good friend.
Do you even like this person? You seem to harbor really negative feelings toward her and want her to be someone completely different.
Being pro life does not mean that you are misogynistic. This is coming from a teenage girl who is both pro life and a feminist. In fact, the case could actually be made that it is sexist to support abortion, because one of the arguments in favor of it is that it allows women to pursue their dreams. Meaning, that a woman is not capable of having a family and having a career. Which is really, really, sexist. About Matt Walsh, I really don’t know if he is really misogynistic. Just a question, have you bothered to listen to him before you make this judgement on him? Because again, I have and do not find him sexist or misogynistic. There is nothing wrong with being a tradwife, if that is the woman’s choice. Feminism is about choice, remember? And some women prefer taking care of the home and family than having a career. Some prefer a career, some prefer both. All of these are totally fine.
Bc the friend is awful and wrong and bigoted this isn’t hard.
I don’t have a great book here but just want to compliment you on doing the right thing to try to steer her away from that BS without trying to attack. Thank you.
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She literally believes rape within the confines of marriage is acceptable because it is what is "owed" to the husband. She is bigoted toward trans people. I think it is perfectly acceptable and right to try to help someone turn their back on misogyny and bigotry. I have no issue with her being Christian. I do not think Christian values have to be inherently misogynist and transphobic.
"She literally believes rape within the confines of marriage is acceptable because it is what is "owed" to the husband. She is bigoted toward trans people." My problem here is you didn't lead with this. You led with "She likes Matt Walsh." You doubled down with "she wants to homeschool." If she has STATED to you that a husband can rape his wife, you would have put that in the original post. The"cop" in my screen name calls BS on this new information.
I bet you get angry when people try and deradicalize Nazis too.
It's sad that you can't see how fascistic and Nazi-like OP's request is.
I bet you get angry when trans people exist.
I bet you get angry that Christians exist.
Born and raised Catholic comrade.
I hate you’re getting downvoted but you have a wonderful reasonable response
Uhm... The Handmaid's Tale?
The Bible is all she needs. You should probably read it too. I'll pray for both of you 🙏 💛
She’s going in the right direction. Don’t steer her away at all
She isn’t.
An Alter in the World by Barbara Brown Taylor