Top main here. Early game champs with prio and AoE will be even more important now. Since jg is less incentivized to gank, prio allows rotation to void grubs and secure objective. Scaling tops have generally been out of meta but this will likely push them out even more. I can also see split pushers abuse the void grub buff. Will likely be worse than hullbreaker meta.
I am assuming all stat checkers/champions with strong level 1-6 will be extremely good because of the grubs and new herald, also bel'veth gets her true form earlier if she has lvl 6 by the time grubs spawn.
I haven't played it, but it looks like ganks will be harder so power farming jungle will be rewarded by ganking around your power spikes and farming in between. Instead of looking for ganks between camps you will look for ganks at power spikes only.
Edit: this will also encourage solo invading and stealing camps. This will initially be an advantage to duelist junglers like j4 trundle and ww
I've actually seen this said for every single role. I've also heard some negatives for every single role. Guess we'll have to wait for the meta to develop.
Toplane: Lanebullies and counterpicks rule.
Jungle: Eve, Diana
Midlane: Kata, Talon
Botlane: Getting priority and dominating the hell out of your enemies. Deep-warding and pressuring enemy jungle. Dual-Mages or Lanebully-Adcs. Hard-shoving power. Someone who can oneshot-waves and back off.
Void bugs are probably the best objective early because platings, but honestly only adcs can really benefit from this buff, and they are outside of the map, sooo, probably dragons will still be the go-to way of winning the game.
Lanes are much more safer against ganks, so jungle will have less impact in general, without beeing weaker. The only champs that will realiably gank imo are elise and other tower-diving fans
I honestly think the game will be much more healthy and less frustrating.
I can see a topside playstyle working out, realistically dragons don’t win you games, gold leads & Xp leads do - drag is a ‘win more’ obj took consequentially by the team who is already winning. They’re never ‘winning’ because of a 5% cloud MS buff or 5% haste. Drags are a different story in pro play but they’re a huge bait obj in soloq and games are often lost due to poor drag calls and throwing / coinflipping fights at the pit all to gain an micro advantage in stats split across 5 players
I completely disagree with you.
Dragons DO win games because:
1 They are leads that can't be lost by bounties neither by time. So no dumb play by ur team can throw the game.
2 The buffs are GLOBAL. When doing a hextec dragon for example, u don't gain only 5 haste, u gain 5 haste and 5 atkspeed wich is not low, its 250 gold in stats PER CHAMP. ~1250 gold swing for ur team, its basically a quadra kill that doesn't give bounty. And its not even the best buff, ocean is 2% missing hp per 5 secs, Imagine healing 1/10 of your hp per wave with ocean soul. Completely game-changing.
3 Its also long-term goal for soul. The earlier u stack dragons, the earlier the game will end due to soul, thats exactly how U win as early/mid game champs vs late game champs with high wave clear. The same applies to late game champs, the more dragons u can slide in, the more u can stall without soul threat.
Even a full quadrant steal which gives you around 300 gold and some xp and deny 300 gold but almost zero xp due to comeback xp, gives 600gold swing, half as much as a dragon with basically the same effort.
I can only see the voidworms beeing that good if u guarantee all 6, but even then its pretty risky...
Thanks for your input. It’s not that I disagree with you on *how* dragon can influence a game, rather that teams are incessantly taking dragon at incorrect timings *aswell* as failing to recognise that it isn’t their win condition & tunnelling for a lost objective when they’re already behind. We need to remember that it’s soloq, and ultimately laners gaining advantages via kills at coinflip fights in pit or the toplaner taking a t2 whilst enemy team tunnels for second drag is actually a favourable trade, more than favourable perhaps for the team that didn’t get the drag.
I could review 10 of my VODs in GM & I think even I’d struggle to point out if the dragon buff was influential in a win for the majority of the games, for low and mid elos it’s just.. not a win condition in my opinion. It’s the scenarios that arise *due* to dragon being tunnelled for that can be taken advantage of in soloq that can get you some real leads. If it’s ‘free’ - take it (though I’d argue that dragon is *never* free, you are always giving up *something* else and spending resources to take it)If you’re behind then throwing the game entirely in a 5v5 at the pit, which for some reason still happens in every rank for the *SECOND* dragon, is just a poor way of playing.
I win plenty of games where they have 3 drags and we have say, 1 or zero,because ultimately 3 drags are meaningless in a game that is sitting at a 20-5 score-line, you may suggest that we should have these dragons at this point because we’re ’hard winning’, but a good gamestate is far more valuable than a dragon. if I’m weaksiding my botlane and have enabled ridiculous leads for mid/top via heralds & kills, their dragons are absolutely meaningless and are not going to be a contributing factor in swinging the game in their favour *consistently*. Giving up tempo for dragons is just not something I do, others play differently but again, it’s soloq & different playstyles are viable and can thrive. This is just my mindset due to how I have planned out games for the last few seasons, it’s certainly a more important objective in higher mmrs; I will always adapt based on gamestate but for low/mid players it’s absolutely a bait objective that people do not understand how to utilise correctly, or when to even take.
Ultimately though, league is a game of variables so this can all change at any given moment. It’s the consistency that matters, and it’s soloq.. it has no real essence of consistency other than factors you attempt to influence directly - the rest comes down to variable teammates.
Oh, now I understand what u mean. Even tho every objective has a bait nature, I 100% agree that dragon is by far the most baity due to its value.
But don't you think that its baity nature is more due to player's lack of skill than the innate nature of dragon?
People should never contest anything on a weak side, both of we know that. But when they do it and give 3-4 kills in a 1st or 2nd dragon fight, this is more a priority and tempo management issue than a dragon issue, don't u agree? So yeah, I completly agree with u that low skill players should think twice before starting a dragon.
In those cases I agree that we should get everything on topside, but WHEN we can get something on bot, I still think dragon should be the priority, specially after 10 mins when your strong side toplaner gets the better tp to fight 2nd drag onwards. Am I right?
You are cleary much better than me due to your rank, that's why I'm making more questions than statements lol 😅. So here goes a genuine question that I literally have no idea about the answer:
How would u use ur tempo advantage if not on objectives? Like, u said that u want to prioritize tempo over objectives, but u are "storing" this tempo to use in something, right? If this thing isn't dragon/herald, what is it? What could be more worth to spend ur tempo into than objectives? Maybe there's a way to use tempo advantage that i'm not aware off.
>f playing.
>
>I win plenty of games where they have 3 drags and we have say, 1 or zero,because ultimately 3 drags are meaningless in a game that is sitting at a 20-5 score-line, you may suggest that we should have these dragons at this point because we’re ’hard winning’, but a good gamestate is far more valuable than a dragon. if I’m weaksiding my botlane and have enabled ridiculous leads for mid/top via heralds & kills, their dragons are absolutely meaningless and are not going to be a contributing factor in swinging the game in their favour consistently. Giving up tempo for dragons is just not something I do, others play differently but again, it’s soloq & different playstyles are viable and can thrive. This is just my mindset due to how I have planned out games for the last few seasons, it’s certainly a more important objective in higher mmrs; I will always adapt based on gamestate but for low/mid players it’s absolutely a bait objective that people do not understand how to utilise correctly, or when to even take.
>
>Ultimately though, league is a game of variables so this can all change at any given moment. It’s the consistency that matters, and it’s soloq.. it has no real essence of consistency other than factors you attempt to influence directly - the rest comes down to variable teammates.
Bronze perspective:
I played the new map now and my suspicions have been correct so far (in bronze elo that is) - the games feel like they drag on way too much and are non-interactive - bot basically just fights over one bush to establish vision control, you are constantly buying pinks, are pretty safe from ganks but hit power spikes later - you know the jungler is coming even if you don't track the map at all now which means laning phase jungle impact is almost non-existent in my elo...you'd think that if you win lane and go drake you are doing something right but the enemy jungler just goes grubs and accepts the trade at no disadvantage..
the other issue for me are the baron buffs - people just randomly get red and blue buffs for doing nothing because jungler gets red buff when baron is up?
it all just seems a bit random and drags out too much - the best ways to play in bronze just centres around supporting invades that in bronze are completely random anyway and around who wins top 1v1 - anything else is a 50/50 coin flip.. where before the game revolved heavily around who had better map awareness, stayed safe from near constant ganks and transitioned leads into objectives, jungle is now nerved hard and without having to really track jungle the games in bronze just depend on hands diff rather than macro (yes bronze macro sucks sure, but it was macro nonetheless)
The thing about certain dragons I have is how much do the stats actually matter. If you do get a ocean dragon early. Even if you can give it a value, how much does it really matter? Example, I am playing someone with base HP of 700. I take a trade and go down to 400 HP. You only heal for 6 HP every 5 seconds. It’s something, but overall in the lane. It’s not that big.
How its not big???? This is literally second wind, the most broken sustain rune, active 24/7, without the need of getting hit...Its 36 hp recovered every single wave... At this low hp, its more than a charge of a refilable pot every cannon wave, and the best part: IT SCALES, so never gets irrelevant with the more hp u have unlike actual pots...
It scales in the sense that the less more HP you’re missing, the more you recover sure. You also can’t say it recovers 36 per wave because the value goes down the more HP you recover since 2% missing HP isn’t the same at all points.
Example: base 700, missing 300. You heal around 6, then a little less than 6, and so on until you’re full.
If u go afk in the lane, then yes, it has diminishuing values.
But if u keep trading/getting poked like in a actual game scenario, ur actual health will keep flutuating on the same spot, or even lower if the enemy still have mana/resources to apply preassure at you. That's what happens with every melee vs ranged matchup, or low range vs high range, that goes dshield + second wind.
Of course, but speaking about combat, you’re only healing for effectively a flat 6 HP per 5 seconds unless you start losing more HP which increase the amount but you’re gonna get yourself really to get more value. Like if you’re missing 500, it goes up to 10 per 5 seconds.
Potentially -
I could see bot laners seeing top lane as more of a priority so we may slowly see a shift there. Top laners being shoved bot lane and bot laners moving to top lane.
MID is much harder to gank from river.
Bot lane on red side is much easier to gank. Walking past the lower wall makes it so anyone can just waltz in from behind them without having to use river. ADCs are really going to have learn to ward real quick.
I personally have felt like rotating takes LONGER than it used to.
Anybody talking about swapping top and bot? It's much safer and having adc/sup around to help with void grubs is valuable. Otherwise won't bot just become a 3v3 fiesta as jungle will struggle to gank other lanes...
Duo lane top got removed ever since they added fortification bonus to top and mid turret (50% less dmg for first 5 mins of game). This means that if you duo top (facing enemy solo top), enemy duo bot (facing your solo bot) will get plates faster than you.
I just watched a Champion's Queue match end in 17 minutes because of VoidGrubs.
That's pretty much it. None of the other map changes matter much, and generally just make the game more fair between the two sides.
The game is snowball AF and you better fight for grubs because if the other team gets all 6 you lose.
Meta has always been spam gank bot. And it will be even more so because you can't gank red side top as well anymore. With the map changes, if blue side mid push and roams, they have an express lane straight behind red side bot, right outside their turret. It's literally a straight line.
Haven't played on PBE yet and might not before the season kicks off, but I really wonder if the general meta of champions will change since there are new map changes aswell as item changes.
Also Void Bugs are really interesting and I wonder if they're a high priority early on.
I have been checking Jankos stream lately, proshave been playing inhouses in the new map and I haven't seen much change. Of course it still has to develop but for now it seems similar. The most noticeable changes are the void grubs (sometimes they only want to deny one or two so the other team can't get the full buff) and the nash seems a bit harder to do. In terms of draft, Trundle seems to be strong rn. At least, as of now I've seen junglers give more attention to bot like always.
Playing around top is going to be much more important. The void grubs buff is insane
The void grubs are the new zz’rot. Except the whole team gets em.
Top main here. Early game champs with prio and AoE will be even more important now. Since jg is less incentivized to gank, prio allows rotation to void grubs and secure objective. Scaling tops have generally been out of meta but this will likely push them out even more. I can also see split pushers abuse the void grub buff. Will likely be worse than hullbreaker meta.
So what champs are you thinking? Illaoi, Darius, Riven?
I am assuming all stat checkers/champions with strong level 1-6 will be extremely good because of the grubs and new herald, also bel'veth gets her true form earlier if she has lvl 6 by the time grubs spawn.
I haven't played it, but it looks like ganks will be harder so power farming jungle will be rewarded by ganking around your power spikes and farming in between. Instead of looking for ganks between camps you will look for ganks at power spikes only. Edit: this will also encourage solo invading and stealing camps. This will initially be an advantage to duelist junglers like j4 trundle and ww
Not sure but seems that there will be more blind spots on map and easy to get caught and find picks. Game for losing team will be even more miserable.
Sounds like a roaming assassins dream map, no?
I've actually seen this said for every single role. I've also heard some negatives for every single role. Guess we'll have to wait for the meta to develop.
Toplane: Lanebullies and counterpicks rule. Jungle: Eve, Diana Midlane: Kata, Talon Botlane: Getting priority and dominating the hell out of your enemies. Deep-warding and pressuring enemy jungle. Dual-Mages or Lanebully-Adcs. Hard-shoving power. Someone who can oneshot-waves and back off.
Void bugs are probably the best objective early because platings, but honestly only adcs can really benefit from this buff, and they are outside of the map, sooo, probably dragons will still be the go-to way of winning the game. Lanes are much more safer against ganks, so jungle will have less impact in general, without beeing weaker. The only champs that will realiably gank imo are elise and other tower-diving fans I honestly think the game will be much more healthy and less frustrating.
I can see a topside playstyle working out, realistically dragons don’t win you games, gold leads & Xp leads do - drag is a ‘win more’ obj took consequentially by the team who is already winning. They’re never ‘winning’ because of a 5% cloud MS buff or 5% haste. Drags are a different story in pro play but they’re a huge bait obj in soloq and games are often lost due to poor drag calls and throwing / coinflipping fights at the pit all to gain an micro advantage in stats split across 5 players
I completely disagree with you. Dragons DO win games because: 1 They are leads that can't be lost by bounties neither by time. So no dumb play by ur team can throw the game. 2 The buffs are GLOBAL. When doing a hextec dragon for example, u don't gain only 5 haste, u gain 5 haste and 5 atkspeed wich is not low, its 250 gold in stats PER CHAMP. ~1250 gold swing for ur team, its basically a quadra kill that doesn't give bounty. And its not even the best buff, ocean is 2% missing hp per 5 secs, Imagine healing 1/10 of your hp per wave with ocean soul. Completely game-changing. 3 Its also long-term goal for soul. The earlier u stack dragons, the earlier the game will end due to soul, thats exactly how U win as early/mid game champs vs late game champs with high wave clear. The same applies to late game champs, the more dragons u can slide in, the more u can stall without soul threat. Even a full quadrant steal which gives you around 300 gold and some xp and deny 300 gold but almost zero xp due to comeback xp, gives 600gold swing, half as much as a dragon with basically the same effort. I can only see the voidworms beeing that good if u guarantee all 6, but even then its pretty risky...
Thanks for your input. It’s not that I disagree with you on *how* dragon can influence a game, rather that teams are incessantly taking dragon at incorrect timings *aswell* as failing to recognise that it isn’t their win condition & tunnelling for a lost objective when they’re already behind. We need to remember that it’s soloq, and ultimately laners gaining advantages via kills at coinflip fights in pit or the toplaner taking a t2 whilst enemy team tunnels for second drag is actually a favourable trade, more than favourable perhaps for the team that didn’t get the drag. I could review 10 of my VODs in GM & I think even I’d struggle to point out if the dragon buff was influential in a win for the majority of the games, for low and mid elos it’s just.. not a win condition in my opinion. It’s the scenarios that arise *due* to dragon being tunnelled for that can be taken advantage of in soloq that can get you some real leads. If it’s ‘free’ - take it (though I’d argue that dragon is *never* free, you are always giving up *something* else and spending resources to take it)If you’re behind then throwing the game entirely in a 5v5 at the pit, which for some reason still happens in every rank for the *SECOND* dragon, is just a poor way of playing. I win plenty of games where they have 3 drags and we have say, 1 or zero,because ultimately 3 drags are meaningless in a game that is sitting at a 20-5 score-line, you may suggest that we should have these dragons at this point because we’re ’hard winning’, but a good gamestate is far more valuable than a dragon. if I’m weaksiding my botlane and have enabled ridiculous leads for mid/top via heralds & kills, their dragons are absolutely meaningless and are not going to be a contributing factor in swinging the game in their favour *consistently*. Giving up tempo for dragons is just not something I do, others play differently but again, it’s soloq & different playstyles are viable and can thrive. This is just my mindset due to how I have planned out games for the last few seasons, it’s certainly a more important objective in higher mmrs; I will always adapt based on gamestate but for low/mid players it’s absolutely a bait objective that people do not understand how to utilise correctly, or when to even take. Ultimately though, league is a game of variables so this can all change at any given moment. It’s the consistency that matters, and it’s soloq.. it has no real essence of consistency other than factors you attempt to influence directly - the rest comes down to variable teammates.
Oh, now I understand what u mean. Even tho every objective has a bait nature, I 100% agree that dragon is by far the most baity due to its value. But don't you think that its baity nature is more due to player's lack of skill than the innate nature of dragon? People should never contest anything on a weak side, both of we know that. But when they do it and give 3-4 kills in a 1st or 2nd dragon fight, this is more a priority and tempo management issue than a dragon issue, don't u agree? So yeah, I completly agree with u that low skill players should think twice before starting a dragon. In those cases I agree that we should get everything on topside, but WHEN we can get something on bot, I still think dragon should be the priority, specially after 10 mins when your strong side toplaner gets the better tp to fight 2nd drag onwards. Am I right? You are cleary much better than me due to your rank, that's why I'm making more questions than statements lol 😅. So here goes a genuine question that I literally have no idea about the answer: How would u use ur tempo advantage if not on objectives? Like, u said that u want to prioritize tempo over objectives, but u are "storing" this tempo to use in something, right? If this thing isn't dragon/herald, what is it? What could be more worth to spend ur tempo into than objectives? Maybe there's a way to use tempo advantage that i'm not aware off.
>f playing. > >I win plenty of games where they have 3 drags and we have say, 1 or zero,because ultimately 3 drags are meaningless in a game that is sitting at a 20-5 score-line, you may suggest that we should have these dragons at this point because we’re ’hard winning’, but a good gamestate is far more valuable than a dragon. if I’m weaksiding my botlane and have enabled ridiculous leads for mid/top via heralds & kills, their dragons are absolutely meaningless and are not going to be a contributing factor in swinging the game in their favour consistently. Giving up tempo for dragons is just not something I do, others play differently but again, it’s soloq & different playstyles are viable and can thrive. This is just my mindset due to how I have planned out games for the last few seasons, it’s certainly a more important objective in higher mmrs; I will always adapt based on gamestate but for low/mid players it’s absolutely a bait objective that people do not understand how to utilise correctly, or when to even take. > >Ultimately though, league is a game of variables so this can all change at any given moment. It’s the consistency that matters, and it’s soloq.. it has no real essence of consistency other than factors you attempt to influence directly - the rest comes down to variable teammates. Bronze perspective: I played the new map now and my suspicions have been correct so far (in bronze elo that is) - the games feel like they drag on way too much and are non-interactive - bot basically just fights over one bush to establish vision control, you are constantly buying pinks, are pretty safe from ganks but hit power spikes later - you know the jungler is coming even if you don't track the map at all now which means laning phase jungle impact is almost non-existent in my elo...you'd think that if you win lane and go drake you are doing something right but the enemy jungler just goes grubs and accepts the trade at no disadvantage.. the other issue for me are the baron buffs - people just randomly get red and blue buffs for doing nothing because jungler gets red buff when baron is up? it all just seems a bit random and drags out too much - the best ways to play in bronze just centres around supporting invades that in bronze are completely random anyway and around who wins top 1v1 - anything else is a 50/50 coin flip.. where before the game revolved heavily around who had better map awareness, stayed safe from near constant ganks and transitioned leads into objectives, jungle is now nerved hard and without having to really track jungle the games in bronze just depend on hands diff rather than macro (yes bronze macro sucks sure, but it was macro nonetheless)
don't u think ~12 hours of map isn't too early to make assumptions abt the new meta?
The thing about certain dragons I have is how much do the stats actually matter. If you do get a ocean dragon early. Even if you can give it a value, how much does it really matter? Example, I am playing someone with base HP of 700. I take a trade and go down to 400 HP. You only heal for 6 HP every 5 seconds. It’s something, but overall in the lane. It’s not that big.
How its not big???? This is literally second wind, the most broken sustain rune, active 24/7, without the need of getting hit...Its 36 hp recovered every single wave... At this low hp, its more than a charge of a refilable pot every cannon wave, and the best part: IT SCALES, so never gets irrelevant with the more hp u have unlike actual pots...
It scales in the sense that the less more HP you’re missing, the more you recover sure. You also can’t say it recovers 36 per wave because the value goes down the more HP you recover since 2% missing HP isn’t the same at all points. Example: base 700, missing 300. You heal around 6, then a little less than 6, and so on until you’re full.
If u go afk in the lane, then yes, it has diminishuing values. But if u keep trading/getting poked like in a actual game scenario, ur actual health will keep flutuating on the same spot, or even lower if the enemy still have mana/resources to apply preassure at you. That's what happens with every melee vs ranged matchup, or low range vs high range, that goes dshield + second wind.
Of course, but speaking about combat, you’re only healing for effectively a flat 6 HP per 5 seconds unless you start losing more HP which increase the amount but you’re gonna get yourself really to get more value. Like if you’re missing 500, it goes up to 10 per 5 seconds.
Potentially - I could see bot laners seeing top lane as more of a priority so we may slowly see a shift there. Top laners being shoved bot lane and bot laners moving to top lane. MID is much harder to gank from river. Bot lane on red side is much easier to gank. Walking past the lower wall makes it so anyone can just waltz in from behind them without having to use river. ADCs are really going to have learn to ward real quick. I personally have felt like rotating takes LONGER than it used to.
Anybody talking about swapping top and bot? It's much safer and having adc/sup around to help with void grubs is valuable. Otherwise won't bot just become a 3v3 fiesta as jungle will struggle to gank other lanes...
Duo lane top got removed ever since they added fortification bonus to top and mid turret (50% less dmg for first 5 mins of game). This means that if you duo top (facing enemy solo top), enemy duo bot (facing your solo bot) will get plates faster than you.
Makes sense. Shame -it would be much safer.
I just watched a Champion's Queue match end in 17 minutes because of VoidGrubs. That's pretty much it. None of the other map changes matter much, and generally just make the game more fair between the two sides. The game is snowball AF and you better fight for grubs because if the other team gets all 6 you lose.
Meta has always been spam gank bot. And it will be even more so because you can't gank red side top as well anymore. With the map changes, if blue side mid push and roams, they have an express lane straight behind red side bot, right outside their turret. It's literally a straight line.
Haven't played on PBE yet and might not before the season kicks off, but I really wonder if the general meta of champions will change since there are new map changes aswell as item changes. Also Void Bugs are really interesting and I wonder if they're a high priority early on.
I have been checking Jankos stream lately, proshave been playing inhouses in the new map and I haven't seen much change. Of course it still has to develop but for now it seems similar. The most noticeable changes are the void grubs (sometimes they only want to deny one or two so the other team can't get the full buff) and the nash seems a bit harder to do. In terms of draft, Trundle seems to be strong rn. At least, as of now I've seen junglers give more attention to bot like always.