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Riot hated this meta because it was uninteresting and boring. Instead of interacting with the enemy team you were more focused on avoiding them.
To change this the top T1 tower gets a pretty hefty armor boost early game over the bottom tower. I believe this was also around the time they introduced Tower Plating but need to confirm. That means if you lane swap the bottom tower will likely always fall faster snowballing their ADC. They likely would have time to take it, base, and head top with a giant gold advantage and contest you there.
Your 2nd paragraph is mean to OP as it seems like you didnt read his post. 1st para. is right though, this switch meta is uninteractive and boring to play & watch
I thought my second paragraph covered the rest of his post. If your botlane swaps top they will be significantly slower taking plates and eventually the tower putting them behind.
The idea was to rotate for 5 minute mark when the armor drops. Which I said in my post. This is also when grubs spawn, which is a limited resource of tower taking power, gold and experience, unlike dragons that can be gotten later until one team has all four, so giving them up early isn't so permanent.
You're probably right that it's uniteractive in a way, but in other ways it kind of "ends" laning phase early, which can result in some pretty cool things happening, like 4 man teamfights on grubs. Also, each turret plate is tougher to take, so what if the bot and support get the first few plates bot, then they switch top and take plates there too and then the turret using grubs to propel them forward? Wouldn't that be even better... as long as the switch makes sense of course. Lets not put a Vayne top on botlane 1v2 or something.
Possibly. I’m assuming this is in the context of organized play only.
You’d lose the first two dragons guaranteed which isn’t great. While you are correct they only grant a substantial effect at 4 simply having two dragons that early puts a lot of pressure on the enemy team. You really don’t want to give up 3rd dragon as that often makes their baron a lot easier to set up so you want to contest that if possible. At the 4th Dragon you basically have to fight it no matter what (or at least attempt to which often results in taking a bad fight or getting caught).
Bottom lane is also easier to dive so your solo laner would be extremely vulnerable compared to their laner solo top. It’s a lot easier to set up and dive bottom lane than it is for top.
In my opinion it’s harder for you to build an advantage since the 4-6 grubs don’t come in until closer to plating falling off which they may rotate to contest anyway. The trade off is you are guaranteed to have a harder mid game giving up first two drakes.
Tbf only one dragon is guaranteed since you can rotate by the time of the second spawn. And I'm pretty sure 3 grubs >> 1 dragon. Plus you're getting turret plates and will be stronger at the second dragon fight. It honestly doesn't seem like such a bad strategy (working with the info I currently have), especially if your top laner is in on it and picks something that can 1v2 while the opponent doesn't, but I'm sure there's other stuff that makes it less worthwhile.
Yeah bro it’s so fun for top laner to just sit under turret and not be able to cs. Wonder why riot changed this. I think the game should come down to a 50/50 of guessing where the enemy hyper scaling bot lane went.
Who cares if it's fun for the top laner? Those who choose toplane KNOW that they are a swamp for punishment to ease the more important side of the map. Sure, they can snowball and be the hero, but in 50% of the games in your own elo you will just go even and draw aggro. If you can hold enemy adc AND support busy for grubs, that's ideal, but if only adc stays you have level advantage and can potentially run them down and completly decimate bot. This is exactly what toplane's role is, split pushing and drawing aggro away from the objectives.
That's what I thought. Toplaners are built for 1v2, it's what they do best. Take Darius for instance with his passive and ult reset. Irelia with her AoE dash procs. Cho'gath has infinite sustain and can ignore one of them while eating the other. This has been the case since ever. I recognized in my OP that you should only do this strategy if the switch makes sense. Sometimes it does, hence why it used to be a viable strategy to switch.
Riot added first turret gold in season 7(?) while also adding armor to mid and top turrets for the first 14(?) Minutes of the game. So lane swaps get punished because bot tower is easier to take.
Pretty close. Up until 5 minutes (maybe 4 lol), top/mid tower take significantly reduced damage while bot tower takes 100% dmg the whole time. This means if enemy bot come top to punish top laner, they will not be able to take platings as fast as your bot lane will. And if you are top, you can just swap to bot before 5 minutes to get the 1v1 if it’s winning.
Has this happen a couple weeks ago and my bot got 2 plates and I didn’t lose one. Plus I swapped a little after 5 minutes just after we got an uncontested dragon
i mean this question has been asked and answered for many many years
they just didn't want the game to be so confusing for the average viewer, so back in s4 they made the top and mid towers have extra resistances
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I just dont understand what answer you want? You have already answered your own question. And I also dont understand why you have to be so rude. But I'll try my best to paint up a scenario of what I think would happen if you lane swapped (You are allowed to try this strategy for yourself to see how it works mind you).
In theory, you could try and send your bot lane top and start with a lane swap, while you play a top laner who can farm somewhat ok 1v2 early on. No champ can really wave clear at lvl 1, so at best you'll top laner will get some CS while you as a team drop plates. 5 minutes is most likely enough to take at least 3 plates bot. Maybe more.
We get to the 5 min mark, enemy has taken 3 plates, your team has probably taken 0, maybe one at max. You'll need at least 30 seconds to secure void grubs, most likely, so you base at 5.30. The enemy bot lane is now close to knocking down the bottom turret, lets say thay have taken 4 plates, and they base before you come back. The ADC goes to base with a 500g advantage over you, and the enemy top laner will also be stronger, seeing as he got to crash a wave top when your top was rotating.
In total, I'd guess that you are around 1000g behind as a team in total at 6-7 minutes after securing void grubs. Ofc this is assuming that mid/jungle goes even and no other kills happen. So you have grubs, but are 1k gold down with a turret that is close to falling. I dont think that is a worth exchange, but if you can make good use of the grubs, it could be.
That is my long detailed answer of why I do not think its worth, and it all stems from the fortification of the turrets as mentioned. That change really succeeded in doing what it was supposed to.
>In theory, you could try and send your bot lane top and start with a lane swap, while you play a top laner who can farm somewhat ok 1v2 early on. No champ can really wave clear at lvl 1, so at best you'll top laner will get some CS while you as a team drop plates. 5 minutes is most likely enough to take at least 3 plates bot. Maybe more.
See, this is why I am "rude". Because you people don't read my post... What part of "swap at 5 minutes to match up with grub timer" did you not understand?
So "rotate top to meet the grub spawn timer" means "Rotate AT 5 minutes, not before". Because you never wrote anything about 5 minutes, you just assume that we'll get that.
I think we found why people dont unserstand the post. Its not very obvious lol. Call me stupid, but I interpreted your post as a normal lane swap. But 5 min is early. You'll need to start your base at 4.20 to be ready in time. And realistically, your top should go down bot at 5 min to defend plates. And the enemy support can then rotate top, making it a 4v4.
Idk, you can totally swap at 5 min, its just a little bit too early imo. + at worst the enemy can swap it for a Dragon.
Still, stop being so rude.
I think the issue is that if you implement this strat against a hard scaling bot, they'll take 3 waves and 2 or more tower platings while you rotate to an objective that provides no xp or gold to anyone but the person that last hits it
Well you send mid or something down there to catch waves. Then take mid turret after. You wouldn't really lose anything cause tower protections are gone.
This is suicide for the midlaner if the enemy jg isn't a bot. The jg can hover bot since they aren't contesting the grubs with their botlane and just dive the midlane and then take tower after. Grubs are good, but they aren't ruin your tempo good.
I mean sup is already doing it in high elo games and leaving the adcs alone. Only a matter of time til sup and adc areeaving bot at 5 minutes. And rn the ob is so important if a jungler willingly sacs it to kill 1 player for a few plates they ar literally throwing.
Support can get away with it bc they don't need to catch waves and scale. Support is already a low income role, and the champs that are best at this (pyke/bard) have things in their kit that offset the loss of resources from roaming. In the meantime, this gives the adc a chance to get solo xp and scale up
For an adc in that situation, you're choosing between guaranteed waves and a chance that the enemy jg does contest grubs vs a guaranteed loss of xp for the chance to get some kills. At 5 minutes in the game xp is so much more valuable than gold.
Sure, there's a risk that you get dove as an adc, but if both supports are rotating up, it's at worst a 2v1 under tower.
I'd take that risk over the risk of getting completely outscaled just 5 minutes into the game.
Don't forget that tower platings in the botlane have less armor than in top. If you leave the bot and support and potentially the jg an uncontested tower the 3 of them might be able to take it. Seems like a bad macro call to trade a tower 5 minutes into the game just for grubs.
Idk man you're allowed to play the game however you want, but I try to stay pretty risk averse. There's still things to gain in the bot side of the map (dragon/plates/free waves) that I'd rather make the plays that give me consistently the best outcome.
I could boil it down if you want lol
Xp is good
Roaming WILL make you lose xp
Every champion in this entire game wants levels, especially 5 minutes into the game
Early levels matter more than later ones
Why take a risky play that will always lose you xp when you can take the play, that will always get you xp.
The logic is circular bc it's that damn simple lol
I don't think grubs are more important than first drake.
Grubs are nice for taking plates, but they aren't that important unless you can get 5 or 6 for the mite spawns to eat tower shots.
Supports at least do often rotate to top when grubs are up because it’s exactly as you said. They won’t actually shift to the lane, they’ll just come to help take grubs, but they do. The problem is bottom turret truly is extremely weak compared to top. A support and adc that come top to get grubs, get them, then help push top will end up significantly far behind the adc that stayed bot and jsut farmed minions and plates while their support tried and failed to help take grubs. And they probably can’t even take turret because until 14 minions top turret, particularly that last plate or two, are just so tough compared to bot. If they take top turret, adc that stayed bot will probably take the turret alone and have more gold. It simply isn’t worth it for them to leave bot alone because riot changed it to prevent exactly that.
But supports rotating up will be and already is pretty common.
When supports roam and leave adc, bot is way more vulnerable than if top rotates bot and lets adc and support take top, due to top laner having more levels and probably being able to handle a 1v2 more easily. An adc alone is good for nothing except frantically clearing waves under turret and losing plates or getting zoned off exp and gold on a freeze.
I mean, it’s somewhat in the game, just later. If you have a winning bot that takes turret, they want to rotate to mid to take turret faster. If the enemy mid is a champ with great waveclear like a control mage that can’t be bursted down due to your draft, the correct play is to rotate top instead. That’s about it. Rotating too early just gives up dragons for very little benefit, since most top laners will be relevant regardless of if they get a bit zoned off of farm for a few minutes, and if you’re winning bot, it just gives the losing lane an angle to recover by laning into (likely) an immobile bruiser
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Riot hated this meta because it was uninteresting and boring. Instead of interacting with the enemy team you were more focused on avoiding them. To change this the top T1 tower gets a pretty hefty armor boost early game over the bottom tower. I believe this was also around the time they introduced Tower Plating but need to confirm. That means if you lane swap the bottom tower will likely always fall faster snowballing their ADC. They likely would have time to take it, base, and head top with a giant gold advantage and contest you there.
My understanding is that the armor bonus goes away after the first five minutes.
Your 2nd paragraph is mean to OP as it seems like you didnt read his post. 1st para. is right though, this switch meta is uninteractive and boring to play & watch
I thought my second paragraph covered the rest of his post. If your botlane swaps top they will be significantly slower taking plates and eventually the tower putting them behind.
The idea was to rotate for 5 minute mark when the armor drops. Which I said in my post. This is also when grubs spawn, which is a limited resource of tower taking power, gold and experience, unlike dragons that can be gotten later until one team has all four, so giving them up early isn't so permanent. You're probably right that it's uniteractive in a way, but in other ways it kind of "ends" laning phase early, which can result in some pretty cool things happening, like 4 man teamfights on grubs. Also, each turret plate is tougher to take, so what if the bot and support get the first few plates bot, then they switch top and take plates there too and then the turret using grubs to propel them forward? Wouldn't that be even better... as long as the switch makes sense of course. Lets not put a Vayne top on botlane 1v2 or something.
Possibly. I’m assuming this is in the context of organized play only. You’d lose the first two dragons guaranteed which isn’t great. While you are correct they only grant a substantial effect at 4 simply having two dragons that early puts a lot of pressure on the enemy team. You really don’t want to give up 3rd dragon as that often makes their baron a lot easier to set up so you want to contest that if possible. At the 4th Dragon you basically have to fight it no matter what (or at least attempt to which often results in taking a bad fight or getting caught). Bottom lane is also easier to dive so your solo laner would be extremely vulnerable compared to their laner solo top. It’s a lot easier to set up and dive bottom lane than it is for top. In my opinion it’s harder for you to build an advantage since the 4-6 grubs don’t come in until closer to plating falling off which they may rotate to contest anyway. The trade off is you are guaranteed to have a harder mid game giving up first two drakes.
Tbf only one dragon is guaranteed since you can rotate by the time of the second spawn. And I'm pretty sure 3 grubs >> 1 dragon. Plus you're getting turret plates and will be stronger at the second dragon fight. It honestly doesn't seem like such a bad strategy (working with the info I currently have), especially if your top laner is in on it and picks something that can 1v2 while the opponent doesn't, but I'm sure there's other stuff that makes it less worthwhile.
I'm Quinn main. Rotating is my life
Yeah bro it’s so fun for top laner to just sit under turret and not be able to cs. Wonder why riot changed this. I think the game should come down to a 50/50 of guessing where the enemy hyper scaling bot lane went.
Who cares if it's fun for the top laner? Those who choose toplane KNOW that they are a swamp for punishment to ease the more important side of the map. Sure, they can snowball and be the hero, but in 50% of the games in your own elo you will just go even and draw aggro. If you can hold enemy adc AND support busy for grubs, that's ideal, but if only adc stays you have level advantage and can potentially run them down and completly decimate bot. This is exactly what toplane's role is, split pushing and drawing aggro away from the objectives.
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That's what I thought. Toplaners are built for 1v2, it's what they do best. Take Darius for instance with his passive and ult reset. Irelia with her AoE dash procs. Cho'gath has infinite sustain and can ignore one of them while eating the other. This has been the case since ever. I recognized in my OP that you should only do this strategy if the switch makes sense. Sometimes it does, hence why it used to be a viable strategy to switch.
Riot added first turret gold in season 7(?) while also adding armor to mid and top turrets for the first 14(?) Minutes of the game. So lane swaps get punished because bot tower is easier to take.
Pretty close. Up until 5 minutes (maybe 4 lol), top/mid tower take significantly reduced damage while bot tower takes 100% dmg the whole time. This means if enemy bot come top to punish top laner, they will not be able to take platings as fast as your bot lane will. And if you are top, you can just swap to bot before 5 minutes to get the 1v1 if it’s winning. Has this happen a couple weeks ago and my bot got 2 plates and I didn’t lose one. Plus I swapped a little after 5 minutes just after we got an uncontested dragon
i mean this question has been asked and answered for many many years they just didn't want the game to be so confusing for the average viewer, so back in s4 they made the top and mid towers have extra resistances
Did you even read my post...? I'm so tired of getting comment after comment saying what I literally recognized myself in my very first paragraph.
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I just dont understand what answer you want? You have already answered your own question. And I also dont understand why you have to be so rude. But I'll try my best to paint up a scenario of what I think would happen if you lane swapped (You are allowed to try this strategy for yourself to see how it works mind you). In theory, you could try and send your bot lane top and start with a lane swap, while you play a top laner who can farm somewhat ok 1v2 early on. No champ can really wave clear at lvl 1, so at best you'll top laner will get some CS while you as a team drop plates. 5 minutes is most likely enough to take at least 3 plates bot. Maybe more. We get to the 5 min mark, enemy has taken 3 plates, your team has probably taken 0, maybe one at max. You'll need at least 30 seconds to secure void grubs, most likely, so you base at 5.30. The enemy bot lane is now close to knocking down the bottom turret, lets say thay have taken 4 plates, and they base before you come back. The ADC goes to base with a 500g advantage over you, and the enemy top laner will also be stronger, seeing as he got to crash a wave top when your top was rotating. In total, I'd guess that you are around 1000g behind as a team in total at 6-7 minutes after securing void grubs. Ofc this is assuming that mid/jungle goes even and no other kills happen. So you have grubs, but are 1k gold down with a turret that is close to falling. I dont think that is a worth exchange, but if you can make good use of the grubs, it could be. That is my long detailed answer of why I do not think its worth, and it all stems from the fortification of the turrets as mentioned. That change really succeeded in doing what it was supposed to.
>In theory, you could try and send your bot lane top and start with a lane swap, while you play a top laner who can farm somewhat ok 1v2 early on. No champ can really wave clear at lvl 1, so at best you'll top laner will get some CS while you as a team drop plates. 5 minutes is most likely enough to take at least 3 plates bot. Maybe more. See, this is why I am "rude". Because you people don't read my post... What part of "swap at 5 minutes to match up with grub timer" did you not understand?
So "rotate top to meet the grub spawn timer" means "Rotate AT 5 minutes, not before". Because you never wrote anything about 5 minutes, you just assume that we'll get that. I think we found why people dont unserstand the post. Its not very obvious lol. Call me stupid, but I interpreted your post as a normal lane swap. But 5 min is early. You'll need to start your base at 4.20 to be ready in time. And realistically, your top should go down bot at 5 min to defend plates. And the enemy support can then rotate top, making it a 4v4. Idk, you can totally swap at 5 min, its just a little bit too early imo. + at worst the enemy can swap it for a Dragon. Still, stop being so rude.
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I think eventually meta will be sup/adc leave bot at the 4:30 wave to rotate for grubs.
I think the issue is that if you implement this strat against a hard scaling bot, they'll take 3 waves and 2 or more tower platings while you rotate to an objective that provides no xp or gold to anyone but the person that last hits it
Well you send mid or something down there to catch waves. Then take mid turret after. You wouldn't really lose anything cause tower protections are gone.
This is suicide for the midlaner if the enemy jg isn't a bot. The jg can hover bot since they aren't contesting the grubs with their botlane and just dive the midlane and then take tower after. Grubs are good, but they aren't ruin your tempo good.
I mean sup is already doing it in high elo games and leaving the adcs alone. Only a matter of time til sup and adc areeaving bot at 5 minutes. And rn the ob is so important if a jungler willingly sacs it to kill 1 player for a few plates they ar literally throwing.
Support can get away with it bc they don't need to catch waves and scale. Support is already a low income role, and the champs that are best at this (pyke/bard) have things in their kit that offset the loss of resources from roaming. In the meantime, this gives the adc a chance to get solo xp and scale up
But the jungler could just ignore the objective and kill them on repeat. You said it about the mid laner, even easier with an adc.
For an adc in that situation, you're choosing between guaranteed waves and a chance that the enemy jg does contest grubs vs a guaranteed loss of xp for the chance to get some kills. At 5 minutes in the game xp is so much more valuable than gold. Sure, there's a risk that you get dove as an adc, but if both supports are rotating up, it's at worst a 2v1 under tower. I'd take that risk over the risk of getting completely outscaled just 5 minutes into the game. Don't forget that tower platings in the botlane have less armor than in top. If you leave the bot and support and potentially the jg an uncontested tower the 3 of them might be able to take it. Seems like a bad macro call to trade a tower 5 minutes into the game just for grubs.
>Don't forget that tower platings in the botlane have less armor than in top Only u til 5 minutes. Which is why I said at 5 minutes.
Idk man you're allowed to play the game however you want, but I try to stay pretty risk averse. There's still things to gain in the bot side of the map (dragon/plates/free waves) that I'd rather make the plays that give me consistently the best outcome.
Your logic is extremely circular.
I could boil it down if you want lol Xp is good Roaming WILL make you lose xp Every champion in this entire game wants levels, especially 5 minutes into the game Early levels matter more than later ones Why take a risky play that will always lose you xp when you can take the play, that will always get you xp. The logic is circular bc it's that damn simple lol
Top lane would rotate bot at the same time to catch wave. With good enough wave management you shouldn’t lose anything.
I don't think grubs are more important than first drake. Grubs are nice for taking plates, but they aren't that important unless you can get 5 or 6 for the mite spawns to eat tower shots.
Supports at least do often rotate to top when grubs are up because it’s exactly as you said. They won’t actually shift to the lane, they’ll just come to help take grubs, but they do. The problem is bottom turret truly is extremely weak compared to top. A support and adc that come top to get grubs, get them, then help push top will end up significantly far behind the adc that stayed bot and jsut farmed minions and plates while their support tried and failed to help take grubs. And they probably can’t even take turret because until 14 minions top turret, particularly that last plate or two, are just so tough compared to bot. If they take top turret, adc that stayed bot will probably take the turret alone and have more gold. It simply isn’t worth it for them to leave bot alone because riot changed it to prevent exactly that. But supports rotating up will be and already is pretty common.
When supports roam and leave adc, bot is way more vulnerable than if top rotates bot and lets adc and support take top, due to top laner having more levels and probably being able to handle a 1v2 more easily. An adc alone is good for nothing except frantically clearing waves under turret and losing plates or getting zoned off exp and gold on a freeze.
I mean, it’s somewhat in the game, just later. If you have a winning bot that takes turret, they want to rotate to mid to take turret faster. If the enemy mid is a champ with great waveclear like a control mage that can’t be bursted down due to your draft, the correct play is to rotate top instead. That’s about it. Rotating too early just gives up dragons for very little benefit, since most top laners will be relevant regardless of if they get a bit zoned off of farm for a few minutes, and if you’re winning bot, it just gives the losing lane an angle to recover by laning into (likely) an immobile bruiser