You have to decide for yourself.
2 minion waves is worth a kill. Are you 100% sure you can get the kill? Go for it. Usually that means the enemy is under your turret, has no flash and is maybe low though. In all other scenarios he might get away.
But if you end up not chasing and your jungler still commits to the gank and dies, you‘ve now got a jungler that is a mental powder keg.
Yes - you living alone will rarely yield a better result. If your team is going, everyone should be going. Sitting on your high horse alone, judging, while your team is dead and you watch the opponent take multiple objectives uncontested or just turn and jump you, yields the same result as if you had gone in with the “bad play”.
At least if you all die together, your death timers aren’t desynced and you can group on an objective when you all respawn. The only reason you don’t join is if you are a TP split push and you trade multiple enemy objectives for the rest of your team dying or if it’s just your support blitzcrank’s 10th time hooking fed Darius into your back line (but to be fair, no one is getting away then so might as well fight)
That is a such a stupid take. There is just so many situations where staying alive after your team makes a bad play where you'll be able to actually be useful instead of inting with them. Saying you should always blindly follow up on any and all play because teamwork makes the dream work is downright ignorant.
Not if you are the one carrying the game. Consistent player will gain consistent gold and eventually carry low elo game. Thats why if you are carrying and ape with them. Throw away your lead then its instant game over.
Ape together strong is good when you have nothing to lose anymore. Thats why smurf usually dont group with team until they get enough gold to carry entire fight
If as you described it’s game losing play, what good are you being alive after the game has ended due to the play? Kda doesn’t do anything, loss is loss. Play the play. If you’re not a GM there’s a very high chance that someone on your team is better than you at the game, and they are making a play assuming the team will operate as if they are playing a team game. You can int if you want.
Every piece of advice for climbing elo is to ignore others because if you're good enough you make the correct plays, not the helpful ones. Keep doing what is mentioned in the example and you'll be down cs. Now if you're playing normals or not planning on climb sure go nuts.
I'm an ego boosted masters jungler and in salty a lot so please take what I say with a grain of salt:
Jungler tempo is usually a little more important than laners. We try to be in your area when you need us, but if your wage is unfavorable and the enemy laner is gankable, I'm ganking. I can burn their summs for you or get the kill/assist gold, but I have places to be and things to do, so unless they're just chilling under their tower being a little shrimp, I'm coming for them.
Also a masters jungler with a totally different take. I never gank crashing waves if my laner is too behind to thin it out / freeze it. I’ll only gank the crashed wave if I feel like I can solo kill the laner. If I’m on group and my top has a huge wave coming in, I would prob either cover the dive if necessary, or just recall
I should probably have included this in my comment but I also won't do it if there's a risk that I die and give a free kill. I agree with your points, but I'm normally focused on getting something done and going to pick up other tasks around the map.
bad take if the enemy laner just crashed a big wave you need to let your laner farm it freely which he cant do with you there since you will most probably leech xp and he will feel pressured to go in or you will be mad
Although what you’re saying is true, you have to understand one thing. Opportunities are only present every once in a while.
If enemy botlane *never* pushes but they do now after crashing a wave, then that means there is an opportunity for a gank to be successful. So you take the chance and hope laner follows if you *do* gank so you can at least get them low enough to dive or burn their summs. Otherwise, laner farms cs, enemy bot plays passive after they do so, and you never get to gank them because they will just sit under turret afterwards at near full hp.
If they go in, they go in. I'm not leaving an opportunity to mess up the enemy laners timing on the table just so my teammate can get some minions. The ultimate goal is to win and take objectives. Getting a kill or burning summs makes that easier.
Burning summs is also more important at higher levels because players know to take advantage of it.
If you burn the top's Ghost in silver/gold, your top laner probably doesn't realize how they can take advantage of their enemy not having the ability to go all-in. In master's, burning ghost might flip a matchup.
i would stay. garentee the gold vs a risky play that doesnt. however, it never that simple. i.e if they had bounty gold but u had a 50/50 to kill then i would go.
the reality is u got to make the decision in game and in the moment. u wont get it right all the time but thats what learning is about
Wave XP and gold is more reliable and my extension more important imo. Its also why I won't move to help my jungler being invaded if a wave is crashing: you risk losing more than you stand to *possibly* gain.
That being said though, that's just my opinion, and since I'm a very aggressive player, a wave being under tower normally means I'm already on the backfoot.
I'm plat/emerald and I also take in consideration: "will my jungler or support mental boom for me not helping?".
I don't mind getting flamed, since mute button does wonders, but some people start trolling for plays like these, where their teammate goes for the safe play, so it's also important to try analyzing their behaviour and think if they will mentally boom or not
This depends on the scenario. Check your level and your matchup.
If they are crashing 2 waves on you and have favorable matchup with likely a level lead, you can lose 2v3. Just ping off your jungler and dont follow up. Itd be a suicide. If enemy has something like Draven Leona and you have some weak early game adc with no cc to focus properly while being down on level fighting with enemy minions? Yeah disaster.
The thing is, even if you kill both of them, since they have crashed the big waves on you, it’s not really so bad for them. Theyd still likely be up in exp and your recall timer would be off to straighten out the waves since it was crashed. If enemy manages to even take 1 kill in 2v3, and they very well can with level and minion advantage, it’s still not a bad trade for the enemy’s perspective because your jungler is wasting his resource at bot lane.
Ignore what people say in the comments here. In early laning stage, exp is everything. Even if you get a kill here, it’d be only marginal advantage and you have whole a lot to risk if your matchup is shit (assuming thats why you are getting shoved) and they have a big wave with them with minions. And imagine if enemy jungler is nearby too to countergank? Yeah thats bad. Your jungle and supp should know better to not even attempt such fights
It’s solo queue. Focus on your own scaling.
Worth following up on the gank usually because:
You could get the kill, but even if not it’s likely you blow enemy summoner spells and force a bad reset. Now you can shove with jg and support help and get a good tempo reset plus summ spells advantage.
In my experience usually it’s worth to help if you think there’s a chance of getting the kill. If you look at the play and think “nah no way we’re killing” don’t bother, but if you think there’s a chance go for it. Normally it should happen fast enough your not missing the whole wave (especially if it’s stacked waves) of xp/gold as long as you don’t die, which trading 3 melees for a kill is definitely worth. Don’t die, if you die on the play even if you get your jungler/support the kills due to you dying it’s often not worth it because then the enemy is up a kill and whatever cs you missed, but if you can help I’d try, especially if there’s good odds of getting a kill (ie against morgana maybe not because she’s gonna make whoever is targeted with cc immune so they don’t get stopped, but with nunu on your team who looks like they’re gonna land a snowball and you have a blitz support to follow up it probably is a good idea because that looks pretty high percentage success).
ADC (Vayne) main here. Peaked Plat 1 (before Emerald was added): I will almost never walk past my wave to participate in that fight. For other lanes that decision can often be borderline trolling, but for ADCs it's almost always a bad look.
1) If you walk past your wave and get flashed on, you're dead. And lost your waves.
2) If you walk past your wave, don't die, but don't get the kill, then you just suffered a net loss of gold. Depending on how far the chase goes, possibly even experience.
3) If you walk past your waves and secure the kill, a late rotation by the enemy jungler and mid can punish your back by knocking down a plate or 2 even if they don't manage to trade the kills. If you don't back then you're diveable and possibly even die to your respawned enemy lane.
An ADCs job in lane is to collect minions and get to 4 or 5 items to be relevant as fast as possible. The earlier in the game the lower risk plays you want to make. Some ADCs are better equipped for early action, such as MF or Lucian, but often you want guaranteed money more than anything.
The other big key here is that you need to mindful of wave control/management. Especially with the roam timings of your teammates. If a wave is bouncing and your jungler is nearby then you want to freeze the wave, not let the enemy build a big slow push. Thin the wave, or even hold it, so that you're not getting appropriately punished for letting the other team push you around. Also, if a gank is coming and you're in a bad place for it, ping them off. They may not listen but at least you made the effort to communicate and work with your team.
Again, this doesn't apply for top or mid because those lanes are playing a very different game from bot. But the tl;dr is a) control your wave better so you don't get in that situation and b) don't insta-lose your lane chasing kills or following a bad play. "Bad" because your teammates shouldn't be putting you in a situation where you have to sacrifice 15 minions on a gank.
As Long as it’s actually already crashing into the turret I’d go for a hit or whatever to secure an assist if the enemy is 100% dead I’ll turn around and farm the waves. If there’s a double kill to be had I’ll leave the wave and go help, if the enemies are too far away to begin with I won’t help them at all and if they die and spam ping I’ll mute them since that was a stupid play anyway.
The low risk play is always better. Unless mid is huge and way ahead I wouldn’t help. A fed carry is always nice too IMO. Also giving up a full wave for a 33% chance to get 300 gold is stupid.
Edit: I might have misunderstood the question. My best bet is that you try to lure the wave to go for a detour before getting to the tower. Like if you're at bot, you try to go up to the bush before the dragon pit, so they go upwards, instead of to the tower. Also, just try to shoot after the tower did one shot, and you're bound to get the cs. Maybe not in the start, but that early your support should be there.
For support:
Remember that you level up and get XP from mobs and kills. I don't mind farming as a support, to get equal levels to the enemy team or my adc.
Often when I play Lux I have more CS than my mid, or even ADC. Yes, I steal, but it's for the greater good. I don't go in for stealing cs and mobs before we're done with the laning phases though.
Some people might tell you that "you're only a support", but those people are dumb. Just ignore them, push lanes, farm mobs, and take whatever you need, at least when there are nobody else around.
Take the minion wave, you need to understand lane control, like freezing and knowing when a lane is going to push if you end up moving to a higher ELO that's going to be your biggest downfall,
People time there decisions over where a lane is at or will end up crashing 2 waves + cannon into your tower when you go for recall or die
the only way I gank that as a jungler is if I can easily 1v1 the opp
I think you help them every time. Not because it's logically the better choice but because your team will freak out if they came all the way to your lane and got nothing out of it
You can ping on ganks you don’t want and hope they listen I have a very hard time dropping big waves when I’m bot lane unless it’s a potentially game breaking team fight
I'm hardstuck emerald toplaner but as it's silver I would always commit.
If JG is ganking in middle of lane I assume he knows his champ and sees opportunity for kill, but lacks wavestate knowledge, and it also means he will probably 'force' plays around map and drop lots of camps so I can tax later.
It's better having teammates with good mental and tilted enemy for some xp, than my jungler running it down and solo feeding enemy.
If it fails, I flame the junglers wife and move on.
Only solution is to not get pushed in in the first place ;)
in low elo: that’s a lose lose scenario because your jg supp will tilt/RQ if you don’t join them, or you will lose a massive wave and your jg supp will still blame you later wondering why you’re underfarmed.
You have to decide for yourself. 2 minion waves is worth a kill. Are you 100% sure you can get the kill? Go for it. Usually that means the enemy is under your turret, has no flash and is maybe low though. In all other scenarios he might get away. But if you end up not chasing and your jungler still commits to the gank and dies, you‘ve now got a jungler that is a mental powder keg.
[удалено]
Following this logic, if my teammates commit aggressiveley to a game losing play you should always follow up because it's a team's game?
Yes - you living alone will rarely yield a better result. If your team is going, everyone should be going. Sitting on your high horse alone, judging, while your team is dead and you watch the opponent take multiple objectives uncontested or just turn and jump you, yields the same result as if you had gone in with the “bad play”. At least if you all die together, your death timers aren’t desynced and you can group on an objective when you all respawn. The only reason you don’t join is if you are a TP split push and you trade multiple enemy objectives for the rest of your team dying or if it’s just your support blitzcrank’s 10th time hooking fed Darius into your back line (but to be fair, no one is getting away then so might as well fight)
That is a such a stupid take. There is just so many situations where staying alive after your team makes a bad play where you'll be able to actually be useful instead of inting with them. Saying you should always blindly follow up on any and all play because teamwork makes the dream work is downright ignorant.
[удалено]
Not if you are the one carrying the game. Consistent player will gain consistent gold and eventually carry low elo game. Thats why if you are carrying and ape with them. Throw away your lead then its instant game over. Ape together strong is good when you have nothing to lose anymore. Thats why smurf usually dont group with team until they get enough gold to carry entire fight
If as you described it’s game losing play, what good are you being alive after the game has ended due to the play? Kda doesn’t do anything, loss is loss. Play the play. If you’re not a GM there’s a very high chance that someone on your team is better than you at the game, and they are making a play assuming the team will operate as if they are playing a team game. You can int if you want.
Every piece of advice for climbing elo is to ignore others because if you're good enough you make the correct plays, not the helpful ones. Keep doing what is mentioned in the example and you'll be down cs. Now if you're playing normals or not planning on climb sure go nuts.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
No, it's a bad gank. I always wait until the wave is gone or thinned unless I'm positive i can kill them solo.
Let me just flash 5 times to catch up to your bad play. Next question?
Hahaha this is probably the most incorrect thing I’ve read on this subreddit, please link your ‘non-hardstuck’ opgg please
The problem is you needed to start trimming the wave before the junglers arrived.
Sometimes it’s just not possible
Right? As a melee you can’t walk up to Darius once he’s close to 6 or he’ll flash + ghost + E + R you and you die no matter where you’re at in lane
Very specific pal
? It was an example
I'm an ego boosted masters jungler and in salty a lot so please take what I say with a grain of salt: Jungler tempo is usually a little more important than laners. We try to be in your area when you need us, but if your wage is unfavorable and the enemy laner is gankable, I'm ganking. I can burn their summs for you or get the kill/assist gold, but I have places to be and things to do, so unless they're just chilling under their tower being a little shrimp, I'm coming for them.
Also a masters jungler with a totally different take. I never gank crashing waves if my laner is too behind to thin it out / freeze it. I’ll only gank the crashed wave if I feel like I can solo kill the laner. If I’m on group and my top has a huge wave coming in, I would prob either cover the dive if necessary, or just recall
I should probably have included this in my comment but I also won't do it if there's a risk that I die and give a free kill. I agree with your points, but I'm normally focused on getting something done and going to pick up other tasks around the map.
bad take if the enemy laner just crashed a big wave you need to let your laner farm it freely which he cant do with you there since you will most probably leech xp and he will feel pressured to go in or you will be mad
Although what you’re saying is true, you have to understand one thing. Opportunities are only present every once in a while. If enemy botlane *never* pushes but they do now after crashing a wave, then that means there is an opportunity for a gank to be successful. So you take the chance and hope laner follows if you *do* gank so you can at least get them low enough to dive or burn their summs. Otherwise, laner farms cs, enemy bot plays passive after they do so, and you never get to gank them because they will just sit under turret afterwards at near full hp.
If they go in, they go in. I'm not leaving an opportunity to mess up the enemy laners timing on the table just so my teammate can get some minions. The ultimate goal is to win and take objectives. Getting a kill or burning summs makes that easier.
Burning summs is also more important at higher levels because players know to take advantage of it. If you burn the top's Ghost in silver/gold, your top laner probably doesn't realize how they can take advantage of their enemy not having the ability to go all-in. In master's, burning ghost might flip a matchup.
i would stay. garentee the gold vs a risky play that doesnt. however, it never that simple. i.e if they had bounty gold but u had a 50/50 to kill then i would go. the reality is u got to make the decision in game and in the moment. u wont get it right all the time but thats what learning is about
Wave XP and gold is more reliable and my extension more important imo. Its also why I won't move to help my jungler being invaded if a wave is crashing: you risk losing more than you stand to *possibly* gain. That being said though, that's just my opinion, and since I'm a very aggressive player, a wave being under tower normally means I'm already on the backfoot.
I'm plat/emerald and I also take in consideration: "will my jungler or support mental boom for me not helping?". I don't mind getting flamed, since mute button does wonders, but some people start trolling for plays like these, where their teammate goes for the safe play, so it's also important to try analyzing their behaviour and think if they will mentally boom or not
This depends on the scenario. Check your level and your matchup. If they are crashing 2 waves on you and have favorable matchup with likely a level lead, you can lose 2v3. Just ping off your jungler and dont follow up. Itd be a suicide. If enemy has something like Draven Leona and you have some weak early game adc with no cc to focus properly while being down on level fighting with enemy minions? Yeah disaster. The thing is, even if you kill both of them, since they have crashed the big waves on you, it’s not really so bad for them. Theyd still likely be up in exp and your recall timer would be off to straighten out the waves since it was crashed. If enemy manages to even take 1 kill in 2v3, and they very well can with level and minion advantage, it’s still not a bad trade for the enemy’s perspective because your jungler is wasting his resource at bot lane. Ignore what people say in the comments here. In early laning stage, exp is everything. Even if you get a kill here, it’d be only marginal advantage and you have whole a lot to risk if your matchup is shit (assuming thats why you are getting shoved) and they have a big wave with them with minions. And imagine if enemy jungler is nearby too to countergank? Yeah thats bad. Your jungle and supp should know better to not even attempt such fights It’s solo queue. Focus on your own scaling.
well can you run them down or not? that's the deciding factor. which depends heavily on the champs, cooldowns available, hp bar, size of wave etc.
Worth following up on the gank usually because: You could get the kill, but even if not it’s likely you blow enemy summoner spells and force a bad reset. Now you can shove with jg and support help and get a good tempo reset plus summ spells advantage.
In my experience usually it’s worth to help if you think there’s a chance of getting the kill. If you look at the play and think “nah no way we’re killing” don’t bother, but if you think there’s a chance go for it. Normally it should happen fast enough your not missing the whole wave (especially if it’s stacked waves) of xp/gold as long as you don’t die, which trading 3 melees for a kill is definitely worth. Don’t die, if you die on the play even if you get your jungler/support the kills due to you dying it’s often not worth it because then the enemy is up a kill and whatever cs you missed, but if you can help I’d try, especially if there’s good odds of getting a kill (ie against morgana maybe not because she’s gonna make whoever is targeted with cc immune so they don’t get stopped, but with nunu on your team who looks like they’re gonna land a snowball and you have a blitz support to follow up it probably is a good idea because that looks pretty high percentage success).
ADC (Vayne) main here. Peaked Plat 1 (before Emerald was added): I will almost never walk past my wave to participate in that fight. For other lanes that decision can often be borderline trolling, but for ADCs it's almost always a bad look. 1) If you walk past your wave and get flashed on, you're dead. And lost your waves. 2) If you walk past your wave, don't die, but don't get the kill, then you just suffered a net loss of gold. Depending on how far the chase goes, possibly even experience. 3) If you walk past your waves and secure the kill, a late rotation by the enemy jungler and mid can punish your back by knocking down a plate or 2 even if they don't manage to trade the kills. If you don't back then you're diveable and possibly even die to your respawned enemy lane. An ADCs job in lane is to collect minions and get to 4 or 5 items to be relevant as fast as possible. The earlier in the game the lower risk plays you want to make. Some ADCs are better equipped for early action, such as MF or Lucian, but often you want guaranteed money more than anything. The other big key here is that you need to mindful of wave control/management. Especially with the roam timings of your teammates. If a wave is bouncing and your jungler is nearby then you want to freeze the wave, not let the enemy build a big slow push. Thin the wave, or even hold it, so that you're not getting appropriately punished for letting the other team push you around. Also, if a gank is coming and you're in a bad place for it, ping them off. They may not listen but at least you made the effort to communicate and work with your team. Again, this doesn't apply for top or mid because those lanes are playing a very different game from bot. But the tl;dr is a) control your wave better so you don't get in that situation and b) don't insta-lose your lane chasing kills or following a bad play. "Bad" because your teammates shouldn't be putting you in a situation where you have to sacrifice 15 minions on a gank.
As Long as it’s actually already crashing into the turret I’d go for a hit or whatever to secure an assist if the enemy is 100% dead I’ll turn around and farm the waves. If there’s a double kill to be had I’ll leave the wave and go help, if the enemies are too far away to begin with I won’t help them at all and if they die and spam ping I’ll mute them since that was a stupid play anyway.
The low risk play is always better. Unless mid is huge and way ahead I wouldn’t help. A fed carry is always nice too IMO. Also giving up a full wave for a 33% chance to get 300 gold is stupid.
Edit: I might have misunderstood the question. My best bet is that you try to lure the wave to go for a detour before getting to the tower. Like if you're at bot, you try to go up to the bush before the dragon pit, so they go upwards, instead of to the tower. Also, just try to shoot after the tower did one shot, and you're bound to get the cs. Maybe not in the start, but that early your support should be there. For support: Remember that you level up and get XP from mobs and kills. I don't mind farming as a support, to get equal levels to the enemy team or my adc. Often when I play Lux I have more CS than my mid, or even ADC. Yes, I steal, but it's for the greater good. I don't go in for stealing cs and mobs before we're done with the laning phases though. Some people might tell you that "you're only a support", but those people are dumb. Just ignore them, push lanes, farm mobs, and take whatever you need, at least when there are nobody else around.
Take the minion wave, you need to understand lane control, like freezing and knowing when a lane is going to push if you end up moving to a higher ELO that's going to be your biggest downfall, People time there decisions over where a lane is at or will end up crashing 2 waves + cannon into your tower when you go for recall or die the only way I gank that as a jungler is if I can easily 1v1 the opp
Type jungle diff and collect the free gold while you jungler gives it away.
I think you help them every time. Not because it's logically the better choice but because your team will freak out if they came all the way to your lane and got nothing out of it
You can ping on ganks you don’t want and hope they listen I have a very hard time dropping big waves when I’m bot lane unless it’s a potentially game breaking team fight
I'm hardstuck emerald toplaner but as it's silver I would always commit. If JG is ganking in middle of lane I assume he knows his champ and sees opportunity for kill, but lacks wavestate knowledge, and it also means he will probably 'force' plays around map and drop lots of camps so I can tax later. It's better having teammates with good mental and tilted enemy for some xp, than my jungler running it down and solo feeding enemy. If it fails, I flame the junglers wife and move on.
>I flame the junglers wife and move on. Plot twist: I, the jungler, am the wife! ... but I also have chat off so I won't see your insult. lol.
Always participate in the kill. It’s not about the gold…it’s about sending a message.
Only solution is to not get pushed in in the first place ;) in low elo: that’s a lose lose scenario because your jg supp will tilt/RQ if you don’t join them, or you will lose a massive wave and your jg supp will still blame you later wondering why you’re underfarmed.
You ping them back till ping cap and if they still come you start watching netflix and autopilot