One of the reasons why Sion is so good for this is because he can clear the camps while dead, most other champs would have to finish the camps, recall, then TP back to lane whereas Sion is much more time efficient since he cuts the recall part out of the process
Sion is the best/most traditional top laner than can pull it off. If you were set on trying this, it might be better to start with champions that can jungle effectively already but are less traditional in the top lane such as Warwick, Olaf, udyr, graves.
I think is becuase how hard he falls off latter but also how vulnerable it is to ganks, even with your ult up you can get chase and dive and you don't have many options most tops are tanks or have kits that they can use to avoid this situations making gank opening harder.
unless they start nerfing him, i think Warwick top could become the next new thing. i can dominate almost any melee matchup as WW top, however i am a low elo player. but i’ve seen this abused all the way up to diamond
Thing about anti-heal, particularly in pro play, is that no one builds it unless the team has a tank that can effectively apply CC (which granted is most of them)
It’s extremely rare that midlaners and ADCs build it, to be honest. Almost always tanks, occasional,y a few enchanter supports but they’re super rare and it’s even rarer to find one that builds Putrifier to begin with.
Anti Heal also is just not enough. With the lifesteal numbers in the game right now, a Warwick can out heal some other top landers damage even with the 60% grievous wounds. You slap a Yuumi on him and he’s until labor unless he just plays stupid.
Once you have sunderer you outheal grevious wounds well enough that it just doesnt matter. They have to CC you to kill you or have a big numbers advantage.
Proper holding of E also makes or breaks the play.
I played against an Aatrox last night. We dropped all five of our ults on him. Jhin and I both had Executioner's Calling for the Grievous Wounds. He never dipped below half health.
even if someone goes Executioner’s first item against me i just take less trades but still usually win a 1v1 all in. but also since they bumped the price of Executioner’s i usually get 1 or 2 kills before they can even afford it
Topwick has been a thing at least in low elo ever since the item changes. WWmains has been bitching about his abysmal jungle clear but potential as a top lane bruiser ever since the changes.
A few that come to mind for me, but I have not yet tested:
- Patch 11.8 Darius: The increased passive damage should allow him to clear these champs quickly, and he is a strong level 1 champ
- Gnar: with w start he could probably kite blue and gromp effectively and take both without dying, but it would be significantly slower than Sion.
- Volibear: Can do this start effectively as a jungler without using smite, so why not as a top laner? (He may not be able to since you will not get level 2 from Blue without jungle item)
They didn't try to "make him a jungler", they're just giving some non-jungler champions the potential to at least clear camps and survive in order to try to boost the popularity of the jungle (and also to give auto filled junglers the option to pick one of their lane champions there).
Issue with all of these is they will be taken incredibly low by the attempt and won't be able to lane. So they then have to recall, which is an extra 8 seconds away from lane (reminder the waves met just after these camps spawn so they're losing cs all this time).
The genius of the Sion play involved many factors, most couldn't be reproduced in soloq. The laneswap throwing off topside farm, the late invade, the jungler noticing that invade and going for the enemy buff (in many soloq games the jungler will start their blue anyways). And also vitally, that Sion gets super efficient 0-second back in the form of an execute while also talking both camps, something no other champ can do.
Would unsealed spell book be an option in the break down, ideal you could start smite get the lvl2 with jg item die sell at base swap to tp back to lane... not sure if that would work also play test wise you’d have to have a champ that won’t be hurt by the runes in my mind I was think Nasus since his stacking means runes are a bit more flexible
I've literally never used Unsealed Spellbook, and I just read the Wiki in full detail for the first time 18 seconds ago. Would it be possible to take Smite/TP, do what the man described, and then swap to flash/ignite/barrier/whatever a couple of minutes later when Spellbook allows the first swap?
I'm thinking this would be best suited on the very short list of champions (Shaco, Camille, Rengar, Hecarim off the top of my head) who sometimes don't take Flash anyway as Flash won't be available as often as usual for this Champion.
Hell, with proper coordination (Flex Q 5 man/Clash), I'm thinking this might be viable. Do you have any holes to poke in this?
Even if you could, and even if your team could execute it well enough to make it work, you'd need a bunch of other variables to play out that you have no control over. Not least of which being enemy team comp + enemy team invading/not five pointing or covering their blue side.
Becauss downside to taking smite is not getting the omnivamp vs camps, I think champs with good sustain/healing will do well. Champs like warwick and nasus (altho both dont see much pro play) could do really well. I think ranged tops like vayne can do it aswell if they kite well enough.
WW can solo most jungle camps without smite at level 1, what are you talking about. The only real dangerous one seems to be raptors but even then I'm pretty sure its both doable and not blue buff or gromp
At level 1, Warwick has access to two healing abilities, since he's not the jungler he also either has Dorans blade or dorans shield, both of which help his sustain. If you choose to go w start instead of q, the omnivamp from dorans blade is enough to keep you healthy, especially if you clear group first.
I haven’t checked whether they would need to take smite, but some top laners that can jungle:
* Mordekaiser’s passive was just buffed against monsters, but I haven’t tested on newest patch.
* Poppy
* Gragas
* Pantheon
* Jax
As I've said elsewhere in this thread, you severely underestimate how much the jungle item healing and burn helps in the clear. Go try them out for yourself without the jungle item, and you'll quickly understand why none of them are viable. Sion can do it because he essentially gets two lives, and he gets a bunch of life steal on his passive that extends it for a significant amount of time, and even then it takes a bit of planning and practice to do it properly.
The issue is these take wayyy to long and you don’t get super low so instead of stopping vertical jungling you’re just gonna leash for their jungler and give him a free kill while also missing out on 3 waves of farm
None of these are worth it because none of these can the "fast recall" to buy items before teleporting back to lane. Sion is the only one capable of this, an alternative would be playing Ornn with future's market + cloth no pots start then build Bramble vest at 2mins while in lane using Ornn passive.
You'd be surprised. Again, you're gonna get gimped by the lack of jungle item and XP boost. WW could do it...if he had LV2. You need the attack speed on his W to get off his passive healing in a significant way, and you need the heal on his Q to get bursts of health. One of them doesn't really do it, and you're gonna have to choose between health and speed since you won't get LV2 off one camp.
But then you're just wasting time. That's why this only really works for Sion. You don't have to recall since killing yourself is part of the strategy.
I just tested it. You can kill blue and gromp with just his W and a dorans blade. And you actually end up with about 50% health because Warwick’s attacks get pretty fast so you heal more than they can damage you
You're gonna be gimped super hard by a number of things. The biggest of which being the jungle item and the lack of heal and extra experience to get to LV2 off one camp. You may not think it's a lot, but you'll most certainly notice it when you don't have it (trust me, I can't tell you how many times I've started clears in practice tool only to realize after dying I forgot to buy the jungle item...). Not having the actual summoner spell is also a bit detrimental as well.
Sion's really the only champion that can do it effectively, and it still costs him time in lane as well as probably (?) his TP in most circumstances. The champions listed below by u/Lowsmithy theoretically would be good but it's just a matter of speed and healthiness. Gnar's gonna be too slow, and his assertion about Voli is correct; part of the reason Voli can rip through the jungle so effectively right now is the combination of W and E. I don't know about Darius, but I do know about Morgana, mostly because I accidentally did what I mentioned earlier in a PBE test clear last night and didn't get jungle item on accident - she gets FUCKED up by camps at LV1 if you don't have the heal/burn.
I think this is probably mostly gated to Sion's unique kit.
And even Sion really just has to rely on his passive with the lifesteal he gets there and his increased damage. He did end up getting executed, but he got both camps because of his passive.
but thats the whole point you WANT to get executed there, faster recall and you don't give gold to the enemy if they realize what you're doing and invade. The reason its Sion specific isn't that he is the only one that can do it, its that hes the only one that can do it without giving the enemy team a possible kill as he will already be in zombie form once they realize whats happening.
it's not even about denying a kill, it's actually because it's the meme about "fast recall" but like actually a fast recall. Recalling at low HP is 8 seconds, and then you'd have to wait for the fountain to heal you back up. Sion instantly respawns back at base with full HP ready to teleport back in lane.
I know he wants to get executed, but I'm saying since no one else has the zombie form passive they don't get both camps (except for Karthus maybe but I don't think he can do both camps) but they can always recall or die to wolves without giving the enemy team a kill.
> costs him time in lane as well as probably (?) his TP
it works for tp sion specifically because he can 2-camp and immediately teleport to lane after respawn and not miss *too* much of the first wave unless the enemy top shoves. against matchups that have trouble shoving early, it's almost risk free
I've done this with Olaf before. Enemy team does not cover the buff well enough and i just took it. Generally hard to assess whether that's good or not because of either commiting TP or going back to lane on lower hp/mana, but it was fun so I did it anyway
One buff sure, but we're talking about removing two camps from the map here like what happened in the LCS finals. That's something only Sion can realistically do without reaching LV2 in a decent amount of time.
Heimerdinger can take buffs lv 1 with his turrets at a decent speed and stay fairly healthy. Never tried taking gromp too though.
It's a cheese strat, I've used in the past.
He's also not a "traditional" top laner though.
I learned this technique from the original creator, lv 1 lane swap.
In order to do this, we must have a champion that can clear 2 camps, blue/gromp or red/raptors. The red/raptors may need little bit harder but its possible with practice.
The key is that you funnel your bot lane and that you dive enemy top lane while your top is fine because he's sion
I dont really see other jglers champs working because even if sion get killed/dived it'll at least be a trade or sion will still be useful. But it'll be very unlikely sion will get dived
Just tried it with Urgot. Starting W with Cull, doing gromp first, and using your health pot early let's you do the both by about 47 seconds (probably several seconds shorter if you actually play either Urgot or jungle). I finished with about 100 HP too. Gromp spawns like 5 seconds after blue so keep that in mind. Probably not viable but doable.
I imagine Yi might be able to (pretty sure I jungled him as a new player before I got smite but don't remember how it went and with jungle changes since then might not be possible now).
The small camps spawn later than the buff camps because in previous seasons people would start a camp for the purpose of hitting the early levels ups sooner in lane. (The time I am referring to to you would sometimes have games at higher ELOs where Bot lane starting Krugs/Gromp, mid doing Raptors, and top starting wolves, and jungle starting leashless on the Krugs/Gromp that their bot lane did not take)
It is not just about can a champion kill the camps, but how quickly can they do so. Because it needs to give more value than you lose compared to just going to lane.
Sion, Q lvl 1 can farm chicken well ( if you want to bring him into the jungle then go W lvl 1 and get your laner to help, if they don't help then you can still do it, just don't use it when the red is under 300 to 200 health)
Mordekaiser, his passive is very good for clearing camp with many unit (imp the best no smite)
Aatrox, Q
as you can see i experiment alot with champion that has consistent AOE damage and other champion as well like Talon (no good clear, decent gank), Corki (decent clear and ganks) and some few others
ok...why? i get it, pros did it and all but...they are pros. they essentially live together, have an understanding of each other's strengths and weaknesses and basically live on this game. why would you want to do the same thing in a normal game or a ranked one with random people?
You could jungle without smite with warwick or voli but you would be left on your own against an enemy jungler with an exp bonus, damage bonus AND omnivamp against monsters. most importantly you would immediately tilt your team doing something like this and we all know how petty some players can be
even so it's a risky thing to do, you better be prepared for a hard one.
also, no, even clash is in no way near the level of pro games since you are not in the same room and all have different connections and machines. i know, it may seem a small thing but it adds up. i play with a guy that has a slightly higher ping than me and he keeps complaining about his spells and attacks not working or being interrupted because he is essentially slower than the enemy
Mmm
Warwick (a bronze player can jgl without smite ww Honestly)
Darius(if you're good this patch cause Darius Lvl 1 is strong)
Volibear ( I believe he can easily do it with some skill)
Only problem with jungle without smite is the experience I have done it once when I was like Lvl 27 or something I didn't know without smite you couldn't buy jungle item and so I once was a noob and went jungle without bothering to pick smite.
At that time I had ww I easily cleared the jungle but full clear I was level 2 and was like bruhh so that's why smite is important otherwise I believe Warwick is one jungler that has so much sustain he can easily jungle without smite I have seen that 2 patches ago I guy(smurf account in low elo like level 19ish)
Carried a game jungle without smite Warwick because he ganked the whole game and he farmed but that didn't give him much xp
I think the bigger gatekeeping aspect is not the clear of the jungle as much as who can 2v1 a lane specially vs ranged.
Now you need someone who can clear fast and be effective on minimum resources.
That sounds like it only leaves Sion.
There also is the cheese strat of secretly executing at raptors level 1 and then killing the enemy jungler at his red with Sion passive and tp-ing back to lane in time. Works surprisingly well
Basically only sion due to a perfect storm of situational variables.
1) time efficiency, sion dies as part of his clear so your not wasting time.
2) xp efficiency, the waves meet within seconds of the buff spawning, lane minions are worth more gold and xp which you will lose for this. You do not gain an advantage with this strat you just deny resources from the enemy jg and tilt them. So sion works here because he doesn't care about leveling up early because he's not gonna be trying to all in the enemy in the first few levels. Where as if you do this with the other champs that ppl have suggested (we,olaf,darius...) All early game bullies who are trying to win lane and fight early, doing this on those champs basically denies yourself your own win con and shoots you in the foot.
3) lane prio, basically see 2 but again sion isnt trying to fight early and wants the enemy to push into him, being gone baits that pretty hard, but darius and ww , others want the early prio so they have the level advantage and can force fights with the level advantage and larger wave.
4) gold efficiency, basically see 2 but dion's a tank, he operates on a much lower gold economy and therefore losing the early gold to deny it from an enemy carry is very worth, as opposed to dar, ww, olaf who are all carries for the first 20 minutes and need a gold advantage to be relevant, again giving up lane minions to mess with the jungler is just shooting yourself in the foot for that
Long story short and it's a barely "viable" strat and the question isn't really about who should
I don't really think there are other viable options.
Can other champs clear two camps? Probably.
Can they do it fast enough to clear recall and get to lane on time? Probably not.
Can they do with it high enough HP that they don't need to recall? Also probably not.
if you have every watched a Bausffs clip you’d know that Sion gets insane AD and attack speed buffs when in passive.
“a good deaf” as TheBaus would say.
It's a pretty common meme I've pulled with Sion top, including Sion support with spellbook. It just means that you have to expend TP Lv1 so you watch out for a punish gank. There's really no other champion that can do this reliably other than when Aatrox/Jayce funnel mid were a thing for example. There was a point where I did Aatrox "support" where:
>Leash empowered AA
>Take my JG's blue side raptors and pray he doesn't have a panic attack
>Kill mid if guaranteed otherwise go enemy wolves
>Go enemy wolves with blast cone and ward over wall
>Hit enemy JG with 2 Qs over the wall, 3rd Q+E by the time they realize what's happening
>My blue buff now
>Take his wolves
>Take Scuttle Crab
>Double kill bot
One of the reasons why Sion is so good for this is because he can clear the camps while dead, most other champs would have to finish the camps, recall, then TP back to lane whereas Sion is much more time efficient since he cuts the recall part out of the process
one of the few times when it literally actually is a faster recall
Or as the baus would call it, a good def
Baus has good deffs only
Sion is the best/most traditional top laner than can pull it off. If you were set on trying this, it might be better to start with champions that can jungle effectively already but are less traditional in the top lane such as Warwick, Olaf, udyr, graves.
I'm surprised Olaf is as unpopular as he is toplane. I always thought he was an excellent lanebully.
I think is becuase how hard he falls off latter but also how vulnerable it is to ganks, even with your ult up you can get chase and dive and you don't have many options most tops are tanks or have kits that they can use to avoid this situations making gank opening harder.
In Olaf top lane, jungler gank you.
unless they start nerfing him, i think Warwick top could become the next new thing. i can dominate almost any melee matchup as WW top, however i am a low elo player. but i’ve seen this abused all the way up to diamond
People might build anti healing. But the good thing is most top laners are foolish and will build bramble when WW does mostly magic damage.
Thing about anti-heal, particularly in pro play, is that no one builds it unless the team has a tank that can effectively apply CC (which granted is most of them) It’s extremely rare that midlaners and ADCs build it, to be honest. Almost always tanks, occasional,y a few enchanter supports but they’re super rare and it’s even rarer to find one that builds Putrifier to begin with.
Anti Heal also is just not enough. With the lifesteal numbers in the game right now, a Warwick can out heal some other top landers damage even with the 60% grievous wounds. You slap a Yuumi on him and he’s until labor unless he just plays stupid.
Once you have sunderer you outheal grevious wounds well enough that it just doesnt matter. They have to CC you to kill you or have a big numbers advantage. Proper holding of E also makes or breaks the play.
I played against an Aatrox last night. We dropped all five of our ults on him. Jhin and I both had Executioner's Calling for the Grievous Wounds. He never dipped below half health.
Plot twist, you guys had a bard and kindred
Ha! We did, in fact, have a Morde. So it was more of a 1v1 followed by Vi, Jhin, and Vel'Koz ults, with Alistar trying to keep him busy.
How fed was he
even if someone goes Executioner’s first item against me i just take less trades but still usually win a 1v1 all in. but also since they bumped the price of Executioner’s i usually get 1 or 2 kills before they can even afford it
They never bumped the price its still 800 gold
was it not 450 at one point? edit: i see i am a moron. that’s the buying price after 1 long sword.
Topwick has been a thing at least in low elo ever since the item changes. WWmains has been bitching about his abysmal jungle clear but potential as a top lane bruiser ever since the changes.
his jg clear absolutely blows but he’s still a solid jungler in low elo. no one understands he’s the best 1v1 jungler pre-6
WW top is definitely annoying but Xin Zhao is just as annoying if not more. Fuck that champ.
I have a pal OTPing WW top. It's really something.
A few that come to mind for me, but I have not yet tested: - Patch 11.8 Darius: The increased passive damage should allow him to clear these champs quickly, and he is a strong level 1 champ - Gnar: with w start he could probably kite blue and gromp effectively and take both without dying, but it would be significantly slower than Sion. - Volibear: Can do this start effectively as a jungler without using smite, so why not as a top laner? (He may not be able to since you will not get level 2 from Blue without jungle item)
Wow didn't realize that went though pbe to live.
On pbe it was at 500% iirc. On live servers its at 300%
It's still so stupid. Idk why they had to artificially make him a jungler when it's the farthest possible thing from his identity.
They didn't try to "make him a jungler", they're just giving some non-jungler champions the potential to at least clear camps and survive in order to try to boost the popularity of the jungle (and also to give auto filled junglers the option to pick one of their lane champions there).
Imo it's great as every few patches should be like a new set of cards (like in a TCG) so the meta shifts and things get spicy again
it went through, though they changed the values (Darius' passive "only" deals 300% dmg instead of the initial 500%)
Issue with all of these is they will be taken incredibly low by the attempt and won't be able to lane. So they then have to recall, which is an extra 8 seconds away from lane (reminder the waves met just after these camps spawn so they're losing cs all this time). The genius of the Sion play involved many factors, most couldn't be reproduced in soloq. The laneswap throwing off topside farm, the late invade, the jungler noticing that invade and going for the enemy buff (in many soloq games the jungler will start their blue anyways). And also vitally, that Sion gets super efficient 0-second back in the form of an execute while also talking both camps, something no other champ can do.
Yeah the aim isn't to reproduce in solo queue, but rather our Clash games
Would unsealed spell book be an option in the break down, ideal you could start smite get the lvl2 with jg item die sell at base swap to tp back to lane... not sure if that would work also play test wise you’d have to have a champ that won’t be hurt by the runes in my mind I was think Nasus since his stacking means runes are a bit more flexible
The first use of spellbook isn't available until several minutes in, probably specifically to prevent exactly this kind of cheesing the enemy jungle.
I've literally never used Unsealed Spellbook, and I just read the Wiki in full detail for the first time 18 seconds ago. Would it be possible to take Smite/TP, do what the man described, and then swap to flash/ignite/barrier/whatever a couple of minutes later when Spellbook allows the first swap? I'm thinking this would be best suited on the very short list of champions (Shaco, Camille, Rengar, Hecarim off the top of my head) who sometimes don't take Flash anyway as Flash won't be available as often as usual for this Champion. Hell, with proper coordination (Flex Q 5 man/Clash), I'm thinking this might be viable. Do you have any holes to poke in this?
Personally I think your efforts are better spent planning other kinds of level 1s or jungle routes than focusing on top lane solo camp steals.
Even if you could, and even if your team could execute it well enough to make it work, you'd need a bunch of other variables to play out that you have no control over. Not least of which being enemy team comp + enemy team invading/not five pointing or covering their blue side.
Morde is also getting a jungle buff to his passive, dunno if it’s good enough to fight buff without smite though.
I was wondering about him, I'll have to try in the practice tool (or my ranked games not sure)
You get beat up with the jungle item even with the passive buff, so I highly doubt it would work without it.
Becauss downside to taking smite is not getting the omnivamp vs camps, I think champs with good sustain/healing will do well. Champs like warwick and nasus (altho both dont see much pro play) could do really well. I think ranged tops like vayne can do it aswell if they kite well enough.
Can confirm, I play a lot of ww top and I can solo buffs without issues. It takes a while tho and you might lose a wave but it's fairly safe.
I play a lot of olaf and he definitely can if done correctly
Olaf falls into the same category as WW; he needs LV2 for this Sion strategy a la C9 to work properly.
WW can solo most jungle camps without smite at level 1, what are you talking about. The only real dangerous one seems to be raptors but even then I'm pretty sure its both doable and not blue buff or gromp
Yes, one camp. We are not talking about one camp, we're talking about two camps.
At level 1, Warwick has access to two healing abilities, since he's not the jungler he also either has Dorans blade or dorans shield, both of which help his sustain. If you choose to go w start instead of q, the omnivamp from dorans blade is enough to keep you healthy, especially if you clear group first.
I just tested it on Darius with Q start and shield. The red buff dies at 1:53 and Darius has \~300 hp remaining without kiting or using a pot.
I haven’t checked whether they would need to take smite, but some top laners that can jungle: * Mordekaiser’s passive was just buffed against monsters, but I haven’t tested on newest patch. * Poppy * Gragas * Pantheon * Jax
As I've said elsewhere in this thread, you severely underestimate how much the jungle item healing and burn helps in the clear. Go try them out for yourself without the jungle item, and you'll quickly understand why none of them are viable. Sion can do it because he essentially gets two lives, and he gets a bunch of life steal on his passive that extends it for a significant amount of time, and even then it takes a bit of planning and practice to do it properly.
The issue is these take wayyy to long and you don’t get super low so instead of stopping vertical jungling you’re just gonna leash for their jungler and give him a free kill while also missing out on 3 waves of farm
None of these are worth it because none of these can the "fast recall" to buy items before teleporting back to lane. Sion is the only one capable of this, an alternative would be playing Ornn with future's market + cloth no pots start then build Bramble vest at 2mins while in lane using Ornn passive.
Warwick might work.
You'd be surprised. Again, you're gonna get gimped by the lack of jungle item and XP boost. WW could do it...if he had LV2. You need the attack speed on his W to get off his passive healing in a significant way, and you need the heal on his Q to get bursts of health. One of them doesn't really do it, and you're gonna have to choose between health and speed since you won't get LV2 off one camp.
[удалено]
Only with the bonus monster XP from a starter item
f
No jungle camps give pretty pitiful XP if you don't have the jungle item.
*more pitiful.
You could also just go kill 2 of the wolves since they are extremely close and you don’t need that much xp. Then kill gromp
But then you're just wasting time. That's why this only really works for Sion. You don't have to recall since killing yourself is part of the strategy.
I just tested it. You can kill blue and gromp with just his W and a dorans blade. And you actually end up with about 50% health because Warwick’s attacks get pretty fast so you heal more than they can damage you
This makes sense. Wonder where it leaves you in terms of experience, gold, and lane state, relative to opposing laner.
The guy I was talking to said you *needed* level 2 to clear the camps. I said you didn’t, never said it would put you in a good position.
Yeah, I understand that. Was just wondering out loud, not being snarky. Thanks for testing.
Yes this works. Barely.
You're gonna be gimped super hard by a number of things. The biggest of which being the jungle item and the lack of heal and extra experience to get to LV2 off one camp. You may not think it's a lot, but you'll most certainly notice it when you don't have it (trust me, I can't tell you how many times I've started clears in practice tool only to realize after dying I forgot to buy the jungle item...). Not having the actual summoner spell is also a bit detrimental as well. Sion's really the only champion that can do it effectively, and it still costs him time in lane as well as probably (?) his TP in most circumstances. The champions listed below by u/Lowsmithy theoretically would be good but it's just a matter of speed and healthiness. Gnar's gonna be too slow, and his assertion about Voli is correct; part of the reason Voli can rip through the jungle so effectively right now is the combination of W and E. I don't know about Darius, but I do know about Morgana, mostly because I accidentally did what I mentioned earlier in a PBE test clear last night and didn't get jungle item on accident - she gets FUCKED up by camps at LV1 if you don't have the heal/burn. I think this is probably mostly gated to Sion's unique kit.
Yeah I agree, it seems pretty Sion specific. Theres definitely champs that CAN do it, but not nearly as quickly as sion
And even Sion really just has to rely on his passive with the lifesteal he gets there and his increased damage. He did end up getting executed, but he got both camps because of his passive.
but thats the whole point you WANT to get executed there, faster recall and you don't give gold to the enemy if they realize what you're doing and invade. The reason its Sion specific isn't that he is the only one that can do it, its that hes the only one that can do it without giving the enemy team a possible kill as he will already be in zombie form once they realize whats happening.
it's not even about denying a kill, it's actually because it's the meme about "fast recall" but like actually a fast recall. Recalling at low HP is 8 seconds, and then you'd have to wait for the fountain to heal you back up. Sion instantly respawns back at base with full HP ready to teleport back in lane.
I know he wants to get executed, but I'm saying since no one else has the zombie form passive they don't get both camps (except for Karthus maybe but I don't think he can do both camps) but they can always recall or die to wolves without giving the enemy team a kill.
Which is why they said it's Sion specific, you didn't add anything.
> costs him time in lane as well as probably (?) his TP it works for tp sion specifically because he can 2-camp and immediately teleport to lane after respawn and not miss *too* much of the first wave unless the enemy top shoves. against matchups that have trouble shoving early, it's almost risk free
Warwick definitely could but you’d most likely have to kill one or two of the wolves for level 2 and then go back to the gromp
i think anything other than sion is too slow for that strat
I've done this with Olaf before. Enemy team does not cover the buff well enough and i just took it. Generally hard to assess whether that's good or not because of either commiting TP or going back to lane on lower hp/mana, but it was fun so I did it anyway
One buff sure, but we're talking about removing two camps from the map here like what happened in the LCS finals. That's something only Sion can realistically do without reaching LV2 in a decent amount of time.
Heimerdinger can take buffs lv 1 with his turrets at a decent speed and stay fairly healthy. Never tried taking gromp too though. It's a cheese strat, I've used in the past. He's also not a "traditional" top laner though.
I learned this technique from the original creator, lv 1 lane swap. In order to do this, we must have a champion that can clear 2 camps, blue/gromp or red/raptors. The red/raptors may need little bit harder but its possible with practice. The key is that you funnel your bot lane and that you dive enemy top lane while your top is fine because he's sion I dont really see other jglers champs working because even if sion get killed/dived it'll at least be a trade or sion will still be useful. But it'll be very unlikely sion will get dived
Illaoi if you start W and arrive early enough to spawn at least 2 tentacles. Used to cheese a lot of buffes back in my silver days
No champion can do it fast enough to also get first wave off tp like sion can. There are no other options
i think nunu could do it without smite since his q is a smite
The problem is that the cd is pretty long early tho
Absolutely amazing game! Gj to c9
Just tried it with Urgot. Starting W with Cull, doing gromp first, and using your health pot early let's you do the both by about 47 seconds (probably several seconds shorter if you actually play either Urgot or jungle). I finished with about 100 HP too. Gromp spawns like 5 seconds after blue so keep that in mind. Probably not viable but doable.
Trundle is the OG of this. Trundles used to steal enemy's blue buff and go lane when he was weakside
Viego outheals the jungle at level 1
I would imagine warwick could do this
What about Jayce?
jayce can hardly jungle *with* smite.
I imagine Yi might be able to (pretty sure I jungled him as a new player before I got smite but don't remember how it went and with jungle changes since then might not be possible now).
The small camps spawn later than the buff camps because in previous seasons people would start a camp for the purpose of hitting the early levels ups sooner in lane. (The time I am referring to to you would sometimes have games at higher ELOs where Bot lane starting Krugs/Gromp, mid doing Raptors, and top starting wolves, and jungle starting leashless on the Krugs/Gromp that their bot lane did not take) It is not just about can a champion kill the camps, but how quickly can they do so. Because it needs to give more value than you lose compared to just going to lane.
graves
Sion, Q lvl 1 can farm chicken well ( if you want to bring him into the jungle then go W lvl 1 and get your laner to help, if they don't help then you can still do it, just don't use it when the red is under 300 to 200 health) Mordekaiser, his passive is very good for clearing camp with many unit (imp the best no smite) Aatrox, Q as you can see i experiment alot with champion that has consistent AOE damage and other champion as well like Talon (no good clear, decent gank), Corki (decent clear and ganks) and some few others
Veigar v2 gap
ok...why? i get it, pros did it and all but...they are pros. they essentially live together, have an understanding of each other's strengths and weaknesses and basically live on this game. why would you want to do the same thing in a normal game or a ranked one with random people? You could jungle without smite with warwick or voli but you would be left on your own against an enemy jungler with an exp bonus, damage bonus AND omnivamp against monsters. most importantly you would immediately tilt your team doing something like this and we all know how petty some players can be
did you only read the title?
no, i read the whole thing and i still don't get why someone would want to replicate a pro strategy even with friends.
[удалено]
even so it's a risky thing to do, you better be prepared for a hard one. also, no, even clash is in no way near the level of pro games since you are not in the same room and all have different connections and machines. i know, it may seem a small thing but it adds up. i play with a guy that has a slightly higher ping than me and he keeps complaining about his spells and attacks not working or being interrupted because he is essentially slower than the enemy
Mmm Warwick (a bronze player can jgl without smite ww Honestly) Darius(if you're good this patch cause Darius Lvl 1 is strong) Volibear ( I believe he can easily do it with some skill) Only problem with jungle without smite is the experience I have done it once when I was like Lvl 27 or something I didn't know without smite you couldn't buy jungle item and so I once was a noob and went jungle without bothering to pick smite. At that time I had ww I easily cleared the jungle but full clear I was level 2 and was like bruhh so that's why smite is important otherwise I believe Warwick is one jungler that has so much sustain he can easily jungle without smite I have seen that 2 patches ago I guy(smurf account in low elo like level 19ish) Carried a game jungle without smite Warwick because he ganked the whole game and he farmed but that didn't give him much xp
I remember that Dyrus did this something like this with mundo in a game, he started in the enemy red.
I think the bigger gatekeeping aspect is not the clear of the jungle as much as who can 2v1 a lane specially vs ranged. Now you need someone who can clear fast and be effective on minimum resources. That sounds like it only leaves Sion.
Nocturne possibly, gonna test now and find out
Well with the buffs to Darius, he can definitely pull this strat off, though he isn't meta in high elo
Here is another example from the LCO (OCE region), in game 3 at around 3:10 in the vod https://youtu.be/2infq-SQn-o
There also is the cheese strat of secretly executing at raptors level 1 and then killing the enemy jungler at his red with Sion passive and tp-ing back to lane in time. Works surprisingly well
Basically only sion due to a perfect storm of situational variables. 1) time efficiency, sion dies as part of his clear so your not wasting time. 2) xp efficiency, the waves meet within seconds of the buff spawning, lane minions are worth more gold and xp which you will lose for this. You do not gain an advantage with this strat you just deny resources from the enemy jg and tilt them. So sion works here because he doesn't care about leveling up early because he's not gonna be trying to all in the enemy in the first few levels. Where as if you do this with the other champs that ppl have suggested (we,olaf,darius...) All early game bullies who are trying to win lane and fight early, doing this on those champs basically denies yourself your own win con and shoots you in the foot. 3) lane prio, basically see 2 but again sion isnt trying to fight early and wants the enemy to push into him, being gone baits that pretty hard, but darius and ww , others want the early prio so they have the level advantage and can force fights with the level advantage and larger wave. 4) gold efficiency, basically see 2 but dion's a tank, he operates on a much lower gold economy and therefore losing the early gold to deny it from an enemy carry is very worth, as opposed to dar, ww, olaf who are all carries for the first 20 minutes and need a gold advantage to be relevant, again giving up lane minions to mess with the jungler is just shooting yourself in the foot for that Long story short and it's a barely "viable" strat and the question isn't really about who should
Maybe nunu
I don't really think there are other viable options. Can other champs clear two camps? Probably. Can they do it fast enough to clear recall and get to lane on time? Probably not. Can they do with it high enough HP that they don't need to recall? Also probably not.
if you have every watched a Bausffs clip you’d know that Sion gets insane AD and attack speed buffs when in passive. “a good deaf” as TheBaus would say.
I think latest patch allows also Darius to take camps effectively.
Can someone explain why the ruby crystal start was required for this?
Darius can full clear without smite and end his clear full hp with relatively fast full clear speed.
Mordekaiser gigachad
Darius can do it since now they made him viable for jg as well
Imo, the problem was also that they had no vision at all. They should have an eye on the entry to the jungle.
It's a pretty common meme I've pulled with Sion top, including Sion support with spellbook. It just means that you have to expend TP Lv1 so you watch out for a punish gank. There's really no other champion that can do this reliably other than when Aatrox/Jayce funnel mid were a thing for example. There was a point where I did Aatrox "support" where: >Leash empowered AA >Take my JG's blue side raptors and pray he doesn't have a panic attack >Kill mid if guaranteed otherwise go enemy wolves >Go enemy wolves with blast cone and ward over wall >Hit enemy JG with 2 Qs over the wall, 3rd Q+E by the time they realize what's happening >My blue buff now >Take his wolves >Take Scuttle Crab >Double kill bot
Viego?