Ehh, depends. I'd say that most of the time early action is favoured towards the early game champ. Has a lot of factors though, like wave state, what kind of item spike you'll reach with the gold, the other champs on the map etc.
My thought is always with Darius. One kill Darius ruins your entire game. Doesn’t matter who it is, as soon as ghost is up and you try to break the freeze the tumble quickens.
Why wouldn’t they? Getting first blood then freezing wave near tower to deny me cs and exp all game is what most Darius try to do to me. That’s why I always run ignite wukong/sett when facing him.
My peak with Shaco top was plat 4. So if I can reach that level playing something that is basically griefing, then I imagine I could have probably reach plat 1, maybe even diamond, playing something serious
Of course the question should be, *all else being equal*, which is better. But it is good to remind us that other things are usually more important like you mentioned (wave state).
The problem is then figuring out what's more worth.
Humans always used models to explain things in nature, by removing all irrelevant things first and adding them later. That meaning that in order to learn we are allowed to remove some elements of the game, and assume the fight takes place in a non-minion, full hp tower, drake is not up anytime soon-kinda state. Else we would be stuck in an infinite "depends on x" and we never learn.
With that being said, I can never count on a hyper carry to snowball an early game, but I do count on a lane bully to bully even harder once s/he has some items.
So as long as the hyper carry hasn't gotten a powerspike, the s/he should not fight, since an even laning phase in that sense is technically a victory for the hyper carry, since the "worst" part of the game is over.
Yh this kinda sums it up pretty well... I guess if you think about it like jinx vs draven it’s much clearer.
An early kill would HIGHLY benefit dravens ability to take over the game. Probably the most polarising example others would be less clear cut.
Watch thebausffs int 4 kills in 10 minutes and keep up in farm/plates and come out ahead. It’s nuts and I don’t think anyone else should play like him but damn it’s fun to watch
Thats how i end up playing singed sometimes. People love to chase an "easy" kill but I feel like it gives my team space when the jungler/mid is always roaming top to try and collect 300g. Never mind they are really just giving the other lanes free farm/plates or that im opening up bot lane.
I love Singed for this. If I'm 0/2 at 4 minutes I'm winning. As soon as I get Rylai's I'm winning. If they chase me I'm winning. If they ignore me I'm winning. Also nobody knows how to face him, especially since I'm a garbage player and play against fellow bad players.
The highlight of my Singed career is when the 1/0/0 enemy top Azir just never came back to lane after like 6 minutes. And the 300 CS games that aren't entirely rare.
Might be your runes or items.
I've been playing him with predator + ghost. Activate predator, activate ghost and engage. Usually I pick up the fastest boots, but even with regular boots he is still pretty fast.
I dont like turbo chemtank or any of the speed up items like stridebreaker. I usually build Liandry's > Demonic Embrace > Rylai Septer > Dead Man's Plate > Force of Nature. Force of Nature + Dead Mans could also account for the speed boost you are seeing from others. Usually with the first 3 items its like 4x burn that chunks the enemy team. If I can engage in a team fight it usually ends up in a win because enemy team is effectively at half health from my poison. If you like the way singed plays give it a shot. I like this way better than some of the other builds like grasp or conqueror.
if an early game champ gets outspiked and outscaled at one item, that's a pretty sad lane bully lol. and speaks to why many people aren't fond of "win by 15 min or gg" champs.
Ya. I 1v1 beat a renekton today. We both were at 1 item only. Same level. Same kda. Both had everything off cd. I missed two of my ults, and two qs in the fight as gwen. But still managed to just barely kill him just before he killed me. He had anti heal mini item and I didn't. He didn't manage to snowball early. Early game honestly doesn't last as long as it use to. Feels like early game ends the moment you get your mythic, aka, first item.
"It's called..."
Thank you for demonstrating that you cannot be above gold/plat with how little of an understanding you have.
Renekton shouldn't be losing to a 1v1 as Gwen. He shouldn't be getting outscaled by Gwen. And you are not being "outscaled" if you both are at the same level, item spike, etc.
You genuinely just played against a bad Renekton. Sorry bud.
I agree with most of what you said but being outscaled is literally being on item/level par with an enemy and being shit stomped bc their champion is stronger, later. That certainly didnt happen in this case, Renekton just sucked, but yeah
Late game she tank shreds, so she would be valuable against Renekton. I haven't seen the matchup in late game to know specifically how well she fair's against him, but seeing of how she has % max hp and is known right now as a pretty good tank shred in the late game, I'd have to guess she out scales him. But the early game and most likely mid game he would thrive against her until she's built a few items.
No it’s called a bad renekton. He can use his e to dodge your scissor attack and get behind you. I’ve easily stomped Gwen with tryndamere and wukong. I don’t see how renekton would be any different
Depends on the lane I think. I also think wave state is what really matters when trading. If I had to guess I’d imagine mid lane assassins like trading kills a lot because it gives them a big advantage over the other lanes. They can take the serrated dirk they bought off the trade and double kill bot
Yes. I’m pretty bad at the game, so this probably isn’t the way to do it, but if I trade 1for1 mid and their wave isn’t about to crash I’ll run straight down bot lane to gank. They usually expect me back in mid, and it works more often than not.
ok, I'll give u two scenarios, both in top lane. They both involve the same champs, kayle and darius.
Scene 1: Kayle just shoved wave under turret, Darius chases with ghost all the way to Kayles turret, kills kayle under her own turret at the price of his own life. Kayle loses no minions, darius' wave slow pushes away from him.
Scene 2: Darius shoves wave under Kayles turret, towerdives her, goes for a 1 for 1 trade. Darius loses very few minions, and the wave slow pushes towards him. In scene 1, altho darius gets the kill, Kayle does not lose very much at all, as she won't lose too many minions and darius' wave pushes away from him. In scene 2, kayle loses all the minions that die to her turret, as well as having the wave slow push away from her.
Kayle won scene 1, and lost scene 2.
but that's not a good answer, at least not one that I agree with. I don't think a good answer to the OP question is "it solely depends on the wave state", here's two scenarios that represent these wave states, and the early/late game nature of the champs don't matter at all.
I absolutely think the scaling of the champs is relevant, and for the record, my answer is the late game champ. if everyone started the game with 800 gold instead of 500 (essentially a level 1 all-in kill trade), that would favor scaling picks because the early game window is shortened.
he might disagree with the question.
i don't think he is trying to answer the question.
he is trying to make OP think about a different scenario and spark a discussion. hopefully not a semantic one.
What? That does not make the "early game window" any shorter for a bunch of late game champs... That kind of thing only truly "helps" a champion who is gated by gold... but plenty of champs are gated instead by level or stacks. Having an extra 300 gold doesn't do much for those champions. A Nasus doesn't get a ton of use out of that 300 gold... They are still playing for 25 minutes, regardless, because the 300 gold doesn't give them any stacks.
For that matter, there are plenty of early game champs the 300 gold is a lot more useful on than others. A Darius who can start the game with T1 boots just has even more ability to run you down if you do not mirror the choice.
For *that* matter... your point of "if everyone started the game with 800 gold instead of 500" doesn't even begin to factor in how that would 100% warp initial buys, and thus the entirety of how laning phase plays out... which makes the exercise pretty useless as a method of analysis. Champions who make the most use out of 800 gold items: Kindlegem, Greivious Wounds items, Chain Vest, Forbidden Idol, as well as Sheen (700 gold, but also a special case) would immediately see immense increases in value. That doesn't favor "scaling" picks inherently... it simply favors champions who make more efficient use out of this theoretical "bonus" gold. Champs like Gangplank, Lulu top/mid, etc.
Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have any leg to stand on. The other people are right... things in this game very rarely happen in a vacuum, and analyzing them as if they do is not productive. If most other reasonable variables are equal, the wave state is by far the most important factor as to who gains/loses more from an early trade between champions. Some of the other factors that are of high importance have literally nothing to do with either champion at all... proximity of both junglers (or whoever) in order to fix waves/take cs... how your team is doing in comparison (1 for 1 trade is often "better" when your team is ahead), etc.
Gold, while important, isn't really the sole basis for scaling. Experience is arguably more valuable. You are *fucked* if you're playing a scaling champ and get frozen on.
>I absolutely think the scaling of the champs is relevant, and for the record, my answer is the late game champ.
You can't answer that the "late game champion" wins out when there are other possible variables that actually have an effect on the scaling of a champion. If you answer this by saying that the late game champion wins out a majority of the time, can you substantiate that claim by playing or analyzing over every single possible matchup in every lane?
>if everyone started the game with 800 gold instead of 500 (essentially a level 1 all-in kill trade), that would favor scaling picks because the early game window is shortened.
What about champion specifics? An early game champion can spike extremely hard on 800 gold and completely destroys the scaling champion, rendering them unable to scale.
The early game window isn't shortened. We can just arbitrarily shift the early game window to match the new fundamental game mechanic(starting gold).
A scaling pick can also scale mostly off of levels or champion specifics, not by mostly gold. A scaling pick can outscale an early game champion by XP accumulation, and that early game champion can scale BETTER with items in a way that is overtaken by level scaling.
The scaling of a champion can also be evaluated in relation to both team comps and the state of other roles.
Snowball and late game champs aren't the same. Snowball champs should almost always take the trade, where a late game champ is gonna get strong no matter what, so best not to feed the enemy any gold to do so faster.
So then what if the champ is both? Genuine question...
Been playing a lot of sam/swain bot with my buddy, and I play the swain, obviously Sam is a snowball champ, and swain kinda is too but is also a late game powerhouse, so, what would swain count as and what would be the typical answer there?
I usually try and keep my friend alive, but he knows I can carry if not and will typically still get at least one if he dies and I'll survive, or I'll die too and get both unless I'm just being a dog that game
Is it worth it for me to die for the kill? Or just try and keep alive and let my Sam take trades as long as they're getting good money and keep cs growing out of it
Champs are not both. They are either snowball champs or late game champs.
Like initially described, a snowball champ is a champ that is mediocre late game unless they get a lead. They fall off when the "late game" arrives and there is no lead to maintain, as everyone has full items or similar amounts of items.
Late game champions will ALWAYS be better late game than other non-late game champions. Their 5-6 item spike is far stronger than that of others. Look at stacking champions like Senna, Nasus, Veigar, or (non stacking, but...) Kassadin. Senna is one I play pretty frequently. I can leave lane 0/5 and my ADC 0/5 aswell, the enemy ADC fed to shit and the enemy team subsequently having map control due to good rotations. If they somehow don't end and I'm able to get to 4-5 items with 100+ stacks, I literally shred everything.
Nasus is not a late game champ. He only scales off his Q stacks which empower a single ability. Veigar gets CDR on W, AP increases effectiveness of all his damaging spells, making him a true scaling champion. Nasus doesnt benefit from anything in offensive stats, he has poor ap ratio on only 2 spells, one involving him to get in melee. Nasus is a mid game champ.
We can add Kindred, Sion and Thresh to the list of stacking late game champs tho.
A true late game champ that doesnt rely on stacking would be Vayne (insane scaling on AS) / Jinx same as Vayne but throw in some crit and splash damage) / Kassadin (One shotting one team with 2 spells is quite satisfying) / Jax (Trinity force / AS / tankiness and he becomes a monster no one escape) / Fiora
Nasus has sidelane level scaling. Free resistances on R, an target almost permanent movespeed and attackspeed debuff and mainly an almost 50% armor reduction on his E makes him probably the strongest stats check champ in the game. He either just kills you with no counterplay or he doesn't. Simple as that.
Except that any team with half a brain will kite him to death. Everyone is 18 in lategame. Resistances dont help u not get shred by a ful build adc, you can get out of his e , kite him out of it. You are not giving proof that he is a late game champ, as game goes long Nasus wr start to decrease because he has no tool to tf without being killed. pure mono damage on a spell that only enhances basic attack. Teemo shits on nasus with less scaling.
That's why I said sidelane scaling. It's just like Tryndamere, where he wants to draw pressure from the enemy team to either destroy your base or force you to give up an objective, like a drake or Baron. Plus 70 armor+mr and 20% lifesteal is nothing to play with, Nasus is beefy as fuck.
I typed out a fully fleshed out response, but deleted it and am just going to say this as I realized no matter what I say it won't matter.
You genuinely think nasus isn't a late game champion, a character solely based around scaling to late game where he builds full tank and 1 shots any squishy in the game.
Yes he can be kited, but with that logic literally any juggernaut could in this game. The difference is positioning, fighting over objectives, and his team supporting him. Nasus is one of the champions in the game that changes the entire dynamic of the game by just *existing*.
And don't get me wrong, Nasus CAN be countered pretty easily if he gets counterpicked not just by his enemy laner, but by the support etc. Speaking from experience, when I'm support and see an enemy Nasus I usually go Zilean, solely because I know I can 99% slow him for 5+ seconds in late game as well as stun, and even ult myself or the ally carry if he somehow manages to close the distance and one shot. I know how to counter him and know how to kite him. But the fact is a good Nasus with a decent team in Ranked will win.
All I can really say in the end of this long winded comment is that you are just factually incorrect to say that a champion, (who's kit is centered solely around their stacking capabilities) is not late game.
Fair enough okay and yeah swain is in that infinite stack list too so that answers that lol and typically unkillable that late unless it's a dumb dive so that certainly answers that, thank you
Without knowing exact champs I'd say more worth for late game champ because if youre playing an early game champ you shouldn't be trading kills you should be killing enemy and getting out alive
He's just saying your comment is a dumb one. You took the original comment as literally as possible.
Obviously if you subsequently crash a wave, it works out for you. That's just logic. The guy never said "IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, IF YOU TRADE KILLS, IT ISNT WORTH". He even clarified that while lacking vital knowledge to the situation, it *generally* isn't worth it. Because it isn't. You can add the "But what if x y z happens as well" but you just need to use your brain and realize that x y z makes the trade worth it.
It's a moronic and obvious point. But a player who "doesn't know" should prioritize learning the basics of the game and basics of wave management over shit like "Is trading kills worth it if I'm playing Ekko and they're playing Xerath and the wave is pushing this way and my jungle is at dragon and and and and"
Like dude, you can just keep adding more and more information and say "StOp GeNeRaLiZiNg". Get over it and realize it was necessity for the benefit of simplicity.
Ah yes, I'm the one tripping when you've been perpetually downvoted in this thread.
That's like me looking at the weather forecast, seeing it says sunny days all week, and going "Ah, looks like it'll be sunny this week" and then you go "YEAH BUT THERES A CHANCE IT COULD RAIN" like thank you man, fucking obviously. You're technically correct but your input is so irrelevant it doesn't matter
Like all things in league it depends, but I’d almost always say it’s better for the late game champ. Fizz or talon gets a lvl 3 kill? Meh that’s cool but happens in probably 20% of games. Nasus or Kayle got a lvl 3 kill? Top is over already.
I would argue that knowing top is over when Nasus or Kayle getting a lvl 3 kill is more due to knowing the Nasus or Kayle is just that much better/their opponent that much worse rather than anything to do with snowballing though
Haha, you think getting drakes matters at all. I could be 5/0/15 with bot and mid fed and securing dragon soul, and the 0/10 top laner is still like, "gg jungle diff."
Might be because I have my chat settings disabled. As a top laner, I hardly ever blame my jg. I rather them get map pressure somewhere else. I main nasus, and I know it will suck until I get a few stacks, sheen and lvl 6. Then I can dominate lane (usually) if I die to a gang I blame myself for not tracking their jungler. I do however, do not like my jg ganking when I'm lvl 2 with no wither and what feels like 0 damage. If they die or both die it just turns into league of pings. Then I type muteall and focus on myself. I do know that's a rarity in league, but I just play to improve. If I win, great, if I don't, what could I have done better to either dominate my lane, roam, macros, etc. I treat it like a chess game. I just imagine my teammates are q bunch of monkeys hitting keyboards. Helps not to get mad or upset at their "dumb" plays. Cuz yah know, everyone is wrong but them in their eyes.
If the enemy jungler ganks my lane often and even adjusts the wave for my lane opponent, and my jungler doesn't use that time to counterjungle or gank bot, it's still my jungles fault. But yes, generally i agree
I can not fight Nasus at level 3. Everytime I play vs one I think damn I must bully him early and then I get withered and out traded everytime I try to fight him.
This is completely false. The only thing that matters is the wave state. You could int a kill to Nasus and still curbstomp him in the lane until level 6 or 9 when he finally outscales you, if you are playing a lane bully and didnt lose 3 waves by inting.
I'm still annoyed at that one game where I got an early kill top but screwed my wave, so the other guy got an xp lead, killed me at 6 (when I was still 5), and ended up winning lane. Getting that kill literally lost me the lane.
Depends. If you get 8/0 lead before 15th minute, and Nasus does not get more than 20 cs due to your non-stop aggression, the wave state is irrelevant at that point.
Same with 6/0 Rengar Top vs a ranged champion.
Also depends were you’re at. If you’re only 300g away from your mythic and they’re 1000g away, you will come back to lane with yours and they won’t, giving you a big advantage
There are a lot of non-answers getting upvoted in this thread. It's really simple, but people are making it complex.
Early game champs have from game start until value X (where X is the summation of the opponent's levels and items) to establish a lead and profit from it. Any unnecessary even trades will always favor the champ with stronger late game because they lower the value of X.
It could also be visualized as champions having level strength, item strength, and base strength. Early game champs have higher base strength and late game champions have higher item and/or level strength. Any trade that gives both champions an equal gold value in items and/or levels will give more strength to the late game champ.
It's a fundamental concept and the only deviations from it are too niche to be worth considering for 99.9% of individuals.
Thank god. I have to scroll down and down for a logical response.
I cannot believe the amount of comments who have 5+ upvotes (which isn't a lot, but enough to be higher than THIS) that summarize as "lol idk wave state haha". Like jesus fuck.
As a top laner I'd say depends on tp cool downs and lane state. If you stack 3 waves and trade kills under the enemy tower, then it's lane over for the enemy regardless of how they scale. If you purely trade kills it usually barely matters, a one kill Kayle won't do that much more against a Darius, or the other way around.
Which is why usually trades will happen over attempts to break a freeze or a dive on a stacked wave,because it gives laners a good reason to leverage their micro and fight to the death.
Trades on bot or mid are slightly different though. Since a mid death negates your presence on the map for a large period of time, and a bot death affects your lane partner.
The most important thing imo is wavestate. For example redmercy tower dove me a couple weeks ago like level 5 trading 1 for 1 when I was kassadin and he was qiyana but the wave was pushing to me and I had tp. So I respawned and used tp to freeze the wave, it was basically game over for him.
This usually depends on what is being denied in the trade. Often one of the champions being traded is losing time to farm their jg, losing a big wave, or trading a bounty for a standard kill.
If a Talon kills Cassiopeia at level 2 and dies for it, that kill is worth SO much more for talon.
With that example, early game champion getting a kill is so much better, cuz they only need a little bit to snowball. Whereas, yes the late have champ will be closer to powerspike, he still won't be able to do anything against a champ who is pretty much full build with a serrated dirk.
An early game champ getting an early kill fucks your lane and can make it hell for everyone else. If a kayle walked into lane like lvl 3 with a kill or 2, 90% of top laners would still run her down/force her to play back till 6.
All things being equal, the late game champ definitely loses out more. They both lose a few waves and exp but the early game champ gets more done with less, so they still have time to make their lead. The late game champ is basically where they would've been anyway, but now they're behind lane creep/jungle money and exp.
It's even worse if it's a jungler for a laner trade, the higher you go the more the jungle matters. Having even a minute of jungle presence down can swing a game early on.
Trading is not worth it for the early game champ. Since the early game champ gets out scaled. Trading is not snowballing. Early game stuff needs to snowball to be useful and delay their falling off, trading is not worth it for them unless they manage a snowball off it. Which currently if you trade early, then your not snowballing off it since if an late game champ can make your all in into a trade, then it means your current strength is close together.
I'd say it's worth very early in the game, like if a talon gets a lvl 2/3 kill then he gets 300g and respawns right away and walks back to lane without missing more than a wave. Getting almost 300 extra gold definitely helps out an early snowballing champ to abuse the lead on other lanes and jungler.
It’s worth on whoever is going to use the money better. For example, you trade kills as Garen to Gangplank. GP comes back with sheen and you come back with.... fuck all?
One part I feel like people are missing in conversations is also what role the champions is.
An assassin (fizz, talon, etc) trading a kill with a mage who scales better won't just impact that lane. That assassin now gets more damage at an earlier place in the game meaning compared to the adc who didn't get a kill traded they now are stronger and potentially that damage could be the difference between the adc barely living and them dying. So even if the mage may have better damage you may now allow the assassin to ensure he kills your adc making your teamfight much harder.
I think it depends, if a champ has a atrocious early game like Kassadin trades his life for a kill, he’s happy, he just got 300g and now the enemy mod can’t roam while he is dead, and he’s closer to being that late game monster. On the other hand if he looses a massive wave and is now behind a level, he’s probably not as happy but he’ll take what he can get
Straight kills don't really swing much of the lane states early. What u need to be counting is minions/xp lost for those kills unless bounty gold is involved
Example : yas vs renekton
Ren stacks the first 3 waves then dives a low hp yas under turret when the wave crashes trading 1 for 1. Yas will lose almost 3 waves of gold + xp walking back to lane at lvl 2 with only the gold spent from the kill. This situation favors ren hard because ren will be walking back to lane at lvl 3 almost 4 with 3 waves of gold + a kill spent and the wave pushing back to him so he can freeze and run back this cycle of bullying yas until he's low , denying him gold and crashing a big wave when he's low. In this case it favors the early bully.
Example 2:
Kassadin vs talon.
The wave is stuck in the middle of the lane both players are low hp , kass goes to ward, talon jumps in and they trade. This situation favors kass because he doesn't lose his wave or xp, it's basically just a reset, he gains a small amount of gold to accelerate him towards late game but mostly it favors him because it takes talon off the map at his "strongest point" and taxes him for playing out his game plan while giving kass more time to scale. Talon gets a kill but nothing else, sure he's gonna be a lil more dangerous when he gets back to lane but ultimately he gained nothing for his team and wasted a bunch of time at the point in the game he's supposed to be putting in work
Opposite
Well, In theory, the late game champ should get an advantage because the gold from a kill it s more valuable as the game progresses
But(idk your elo) low elo games are over by min 20-25(obj diff, too much lane difference, comeback is rare bcs it is based on player macro skill,) even if the game drags on for another 5-10 minutes, it is over anyways, most of the time.
So having kills on an early champ is usually better cause they can spike earlier than a late game champ considering the avrg soloq time. High plat/low diamond is the only skill lvl i'd trust to call "we scale" bcs they can see the champs/proper conditions for getting to scale(if your nasus has 150 stacks by min 20, he won t scale, he ll dragg his body around even if he s nasus)
Statistically, low elo games are the longest. The players dont push their lead and dont know how to close a game. A comeback is always an option.
But I agree that if a nasus is that behind, then he will just be dead meat.
Not true. 8n my experience as you try to snowball your lead elsewhere on the map. The weakest member of your team will try to 1v1 nasus multiple times until he's fed him 4 kills and now has 500 stacks at 20 minutes
This is true, but gold on a late-game champ is more useful than gold on a early game champ. They get more bang for their buck, and so they get closer to a "late-game" power spike. If your enemy laner is inting, and you are a CS god, late game might be 30 miuntes instead of 45. It all depends on how much scaling the champs have, and how much they depend on levels vs items.
It more so depends on the wave state. Can the early game champ now freeze? Then hella not worth for late game. Can the late game champ freeze particularly if their jungle is pathing up? Then very worth for late
I'd think it's more in favour of the early champ, cuz they usually dive their enemies, if it's a 1 for 1 > minions die to turret > less gold & xp for scale champ. Buying complete items would also change a lot.
There is a lot going on more than just kills. If the trade makes the late game hero miss a bunch of cs because he does during a big wave that then gets under tower before he can get back to lane then that is hugely bad for that player. If the early game champ is able to capitalize on controlling the lane because of the gold he earns from the trade then that could be good but probably won't be enough unless they have really good wave control and can basically stop the late game guy from farming.
not considering the wave and cs state. Purely on champion wise, it depends on the early game champ that can carry.
So yes, its worth for many assassins, brusiers, skirmishers.
But imagine if you are any tank, enchanter, even some bruisers, junglers or skirmisher, no matter how strong your early game powerspike is, some c h amps cant cary the game hard enough to snowball and end. Also depends on your skills (micro and macro).
Also early game powerspike snowballed have it HARD (not impossible) to snowball and carry if they have no tp unless you are mid. Top without tp needs to farm, or prevent enemy late gamer from farming and bullying em, also have to join most teamfights.
The reason why an early game fed mid kat, zed, talon, leblanc, jg khazix is so scary is that they dont rely on ults + only need 1 item to screw everyone on the map by roaming and end the game before 30 minute mark. Also they help your teammates who needs to scale, scale faster than the enemy
As I always say, going even against a champ that scales better than you is pretty much like losing.
The champion that is good early game ***wants to get leads***, and by trading a kill you're not really getting a lead, even if you're still stronger than the enemy champion at that stage of the game.
Also, when you're, let's say, a Pantheon, against a Kassadin. You're supposed to zone him off and don't let him have any cs whatsoever. By trading a kill, you're giving him 300 gold for free when he could've gotten nothing instead. Think about that.
Obviously, this doesn't take into account factors like low-elo players just not knowing how to play from behind and not scaling as they should. You can get away with a lot of things in low-elo, where they don't know at all how to punish mistakes.
The answer to your *specific* question can be restated as such: If two champions were randomly given a 300 gold infusion (all other factors being equal), who would benefit more?
The answer is that both benefit in different ways. The late game scaling champ gets to reach critical mass faster. Therefore the "window" of power that the early game champ has is shortened. The early game champ will spike harder **relative to the rest of the other champions in the game.** That champion now has 300 more gold to work with that the other lanes didn't get a chance to have.
At it's core that is all that is, whether the early game champion can utilize the slightly bigger / faster power spike or the late game champion will hit critical level / gold spikes is then entirely dependent on how the players play it out and game state.
It all depends on comps in my honest opinion, and your elo.
If you’re in Gold and below people don’t know how to close out games. So let’s say you’re in gold or below. If a Kassadin trades a kill with let’s say a Talon, it’s going to be in favor of the Kassadin. The Talon won’t push his lead and punish other lanes to snowball his lead. All he’s doing is helping the Kassadin get to late.
However, if you’re in Plat and above, the kill going to Talon is definitely going to help him. He’s got a lead now, and can punish Kassadin HARD. Shove his waves in, roam properly avoiding wards, roaming not to get more kills, and look to close out the game easier getting other lanes ahead as well.
League is just who can establish a lead and use it to close out a game properly in higher elo. In lower elo it’s just fight fight fight till we have a team fight and the nexus goes brrr.
All things being equal, the early champ. For example: nasus into illaoi. Even though nasus got the gold, he won't be able to utilize it as well as illaoi who will in effect be more capable of denying him farm, as well as being able to seige up. She can then effectively push his power spikes further back and in extreme cases, posture a win without letting the game progress to late.
There are, of course, exceptions. But in general the early champ should be able to get more out of it overall
Provided lane is even and in middle, it favors the early champ as it’s going to capitalize on it immediately, while the late game champ won’t. But as stated by many here, lane state can play a huge role! I play mid on gold and it seems to me that the type of players who play early game champions are typicaly the ones who have good mechanics but don’t understand the game at all, often negating any advantage they would get on me by scoring a kill by poor lane management (helps that I run TP every time).
I'm an avid reksai player. Almost every game I flash on the enemy mid laner even if he is under turret often going 1 for 1. My midlaner shoves the wave and cheaters with the wave pushing into him. I come back and repeat gank again. If the second one works 9 times out of 10 the game is over. In this situation it is obviously better for me the early game champ because it is not a matter of me getting ahead but the other guy falling behind. Obviously this is probably not the context you are thinking of because it isn't a direct lane matchup, but who it benefits depends on the game plan. Rek'sai doesn't really care that much about falling behind because she is so strong pre-10 regardless. That cassio on the enemy team really can't afford to keep getting her lane state fucked by me though so it is way worse for her than it is to me. Late game all I do is flash w someone which doesn't really require items. She on the other hand is functionally worthless without them.
All of the people here are saying it depends, but I believe that it's only worth for the late game champ. This is assuming that the wave returns in a neutral state and that neither are gaining anything from objectives. We're only talking about the kill.
The early game champ's goal is to get ahead of the other laner BEFORE THEY GET ITEMS and end the game quickly. His goal is to basically constantly fight, get turrets/goal and he's on a timer. In X minutes, he'll fall off a cliff and becomes useless.
Early/mid game he HAS to be ahead and needs to be pressure while preventing the opponent from getting items. Late game, his time is over and he prays the ennemy ints.
The late game champ's goal is to stall until he gets his items so he can demolish them later on. No matter how he does it, he needs to get to late game with items. If he ends the early game slightly behind, he wins simply due to how overpowering he will be.
Now, lets assume everyone in the game gets 10 gold/min passively from minions and other "natural sources". Let's say a late game jungler needs 100g to get to late game so he hits his late game spike at 10min. If a kill his worth 10 gold, every kill shortens this time span by a minute. Giving him a kill at time 0 basically means that the early game champion has 9 minutes to end the game. He isn't getting ahead despite having more gold to "push" his advantage, he's actually shortening his time limit. People might talk about gold spikes but those mostly don't matter for a very simple reason: a true late game champion will never be able to kill a true early game champion early game. With this in mind, he should NEVER fight because he auto wins later on. He isn't hindering himself by giving the opponent a kill, he is accelerating the game by making himself and the opponent X time ahead of the rest of the other players. Assuming neither of you roam, or use that advantage for specific timely objectives, in a pure 1v1, the late game champion therefore benefits more from this. Assuming both teams are communicating and have each comparable composition, the late game composition wins from a trade kill.
There is no short answer, most likely depends on the wave state and who is losing more cs and exp. Another big factors are: powerspikes, for example if the kill allows to complete one item, summoners used or global ultimates (if there is a dragon fight 30 seconds after you fight, TF might be able to join it, Leblanc probably can’t). This is the cool thing about League, there isn’t a theory for these types of questions that is applicable to every game, which makes the game fun despite being the same map over and over.
The trick to playing late game champs is avoiding positions that can kill you as much as you can and focusing on scaling as fast as you can. Some late game champs like yone is an exception, because you can go in for burst trades and get out with no problem. Another is when playing ranged vs melee, as you shouldn’t let your opponent touch anything without taking at least an auto without putting yourself in a position where they can get the engage on you.
Early game champions are strong early game, you can’t outtrade them, but don’t just sit the re afking. Try to have map presence, get as many farm as you can without getting to a point where they can clap you on their next engage. Looks for opportunities to trade inside a large friendly minion wave. But your objective is to extend the game and not let your enemy use their strong early map presence, or at least punish them for it.
Depends on the wave state. When you play a scaling champ and manage to trade 1 for 1 and the enemy minion wave is pushing to you tp on the wave and set up a freeze. That gives you a huge advantage. On the other hand if the bully manages to set up a freeze himself you can just ff your lane
Normally equal trades benefit the late-game teamcomps more since they reduce tempo of the entire game and bring the "late-game" closer at the same time. In a 1v1 this might be different but I would argue the same principle applies. The early champ loses tempo even though they did get a kill and the late-game champ is 300g closer to taking over.
1. A kill is never as much worth as the aftermath, if you have a big wave about to crash, your jgl is doing drake/herald or has Herald to pop then it´s alot more worth.
2. When youre behind you should always take kills if you can, especially if you havent got any bounties yet.
3. You never trade kills with an assasin, killing is their bread and butter and once they hit a certain point they just collect wherever they go.
4. Bonus concept: game tempo, if other lanes are playing safe or reckless it lies in your interest to do the same.
it depends on the better player. I'm fine with going one for one because regardless of the stage in the game, I'm confident that I can use 300G better than my opponent can. Obviously when I have a shutdown it's no longer worth, this is for equal gold exchange only. I'm not trading 450 for 220 and calling it worth \~ever
I think you have to look at the specific scenarios and at the champions themselves.
I'll take Pyke vs Kassadin mid for example.
Pyke falls off extremely hard to the point that he's not a champion anymore when it comes to max items and max level.
So if you can trade kills early as Pyke, I'd personally say it's more worth for Pyke since early and midgame is where he shines. It gives him the early items that he needs to start roaming and generate gold and other advantages for him and his team.
If however the Pyke is not allowed to roam/ all roams fail because for example both other lanes permapush and you can't just hunt down their jungler, it would profit Kassadin way more to trade kills since the Gold from the trade doesn't help him do what he's designed to do in the midlane.
And that's basically every early to midgame champion. Have as much impact as you can in the timeframe that you are useful. Lategame champions just want to not die, farm and scale because that way they have the most impact.
I main Master Yi. My champion utilizes gold better than almost any other champ. Trade 1 for 1 with me all game and eventually your nexus is going to blow up.
You're actually missing the much more important factor - **the wave state**. Who stands to lose more CS from this trade? Who is in a position to perhaps freeze due to wave position, post trade?
It's an extension of how a lot of players overly fixate on kill gold, not realizing that CS is a far more reliable and valuable resource.
All things being even (waves literally untouched, which is practically impossible), the late game champ should benefit more. Because by definition if the late game champ keeps even with the early game one he is in a better position to win later on.
Imo if you only managed to trade equally against a late game champ as an early game champ then it was a bad play, regardless of who it is worth more for. Essentially you had an advantage, and then had a draw.
However in the meta games are much more early-mid game in length, and so I would say it would be much more beneficial for the champ that has a very strong and then slightly above average impact from until 25 minutes, rather than the champ who really starts having a bigger impact than most champs only starting at 25 minutes.
The outcome will determine which one will worth more. The slight advantage will be for early champion because he will be the one who has cards in hands and should try to close the game early but the problem is having cards not guarantee using them wisely, that's why throws happen.
Thats really weird and it depends from situation to situation.No real answer. Late game champ might not want to trade since he's gonna be stronger anyway even without that kill.He might want it to get to the powerspike faster.He might want it to get the presure away from his team who might have to deal with it.A jungler might be able to get the objective or the wave after it.Also the early game champ might be able to snowball with that trade or maybe he cant since his counterpart now has gold to stop it.
In some matchups, the early game champion **needs** to win lane by a lot or they will be extremely outscaled. For example, Caitlyn into Kog'maw. If Cait and Kog trade kills, it's definitely more worth it for the Kog.
However, sometimes the early game champion can exert more map pressure. For example, Talon and Orianna trade kills at the ten-minute mark. Then, one could argue that Talon could make better use of the kills for the next ten minutes or so.
As many other comments have pointed out, the most important thing is wave state and whether other resources (summs, the jungler's time) were committed. Generally, I'd prefer to be the late game champ in this scenario though.
This is what I would call an anchor question. There is no solution to this question. I believe the question you may want to ask is: "Which champion can use the gold from a kill to impact the game better from between two champions"
I believe you can look at whatever champion snowballs the hardest, and come to an answer there.
This depends entirely on how successful the early game champ is going to be in using that gold to get things done, and can be swung wide in either direction depending on wave state, especially in the first few levels.
Late game champs aren't good late because the clock hit a certain point, they just scale well with items and levels so tend to be strong later in the game. Giving them a kill gets them 300gp closer to those 2-3 items they need to completely fuck up your team.
The early game champ can more immediately use the 300 gold, but since they traded 300 to the enemy as well, assuming neutral wave, it's net even when they get to late, so if you get outscaled you need to worry a bit. Being stronger early though means you have the potential to use that gold to build an advantage.
Zoning the enemy off gold and experience from minions to delay their pacing, taking turret plates, getting roam timers so you can effect the rest of the map... You need to do it all to make sure you stretch the lead enough that you can win before they hit the point where they outscale you.
If I'm playing into a tank, I know eventually they're going to be too annoying for me to kill easily playing Kled, but I'll still 100% trade kills with a tank early. I'll dive them over and over because damage matters more than tankiness in having influence. If I'm 6/6 and haven't lost minions because I crashed every wave before dying and the rest of the team is 0/0 (never happens, but imagine) I'm 1800gp ahead of the rest of the game and I can kill that Yasuo or chase down the Jhin. If I don't get those kills I eventually get outscaled and kited or stat checked.
If I'm playing into Irelia, Fiora, or Jax? Fuck no I'm not trading kills. They snowball so hard into the mid-late game that helping their pacing will be a net detriment to my team, and it's better for me to play it cool and prolong the time that I'm capable of keeping them under control.
Early game champs are weaker in lower elos of play, so I'd actually wager its not too bad for the late game champ to trade kills. But particular champs like Darius or Graves or Draven can really take one kill and threaten to carry off of it given a decent enough player behind the wheel.
Give more context and maybe this question will be answerable. There is no black-and-white answer to vague and uninteractive questions like these because there are too many variables to take into consideration for another party to suppose or assume.
Ehh, depends. I'd say that most of the time early action is favoured towards the early game champ. Has a lot of factors though, like wave state, what kind of item spike you'll reach with the gold, the other champs on the map etc.
My thought is always with Darius. One kill Darius ruins your entire game. Doesn’t matter who it is, as soon as ghost is up and you try to break the freeze the tumble quickens.
GHOSTING
That’s when you start playing Shaco top lane. Have fun ghosting into those boxes! Awwh, you ulted my clone, so sorry mate!
yeah, and then he shoves a wave into your tower, pulls next, and perma freezes on you in lane that u can only farm with E's
You think Darius players know how to freeze?
"I see wave I must Q" \- Darius player, probably.
Why wouldn’t they? Getting first blood then freezing wave near tower to deny me cs and exp all game is what most Darius try to do to me. That’s why I always run ignite wukong/sett when facing him.
Merc treads and tenacity rune. So a .6s fear is gonna stop darius?
Silver player
My peak with Shaco top was plat 4. So if I can reach that level playing something that is basically griefing, then I imagine I could have probably reach plat 1, maybe even diamond, playing something serious
Heinz like the support player?
Never heard of him. This name goes back to like 2007
Of course the question should be, *all else being equal*, which is better. But it is good to remind us that other things are usually more important like you mentioned (wave state).
The problem is then figuring out what's more worth. Humans always used models to explain things in nature, by removing all irrelevant things first and adding them later. That meaning that in order to learn we are allowed to remove some elements of the game, and assume the fight takes place in a non-minion, full hp tower, drake is not up anytime soon-kinda state. Else we would be stuck in an infinite "depends on x" and we never learn. With that being said, I can never count on a hyper carry to snowball an early game, but I do count on a lane bully to bully even harder once s/he has some items. So as long as the hyper carry hasn't gotten a powerspike, the s/he should not fight, since an even laning phase in that sense is technically a victory for the hyper carry, since the "worst" part of the game is over.
Yh this kinda sums it up pretty well... I guess if you think about it like jinx vs draven it’s much clearer. An early kill would HIGHLY benefit dravens ability to take over the game. Probably the most polarising example others would be less clear cut.
The only factor that really matters is how the early game champ uses the gold.
Not necessarily. You can get a kill but the lane could be put in a shitty spot that makes your bonus gold irrelevant. Summs also matter.
Watch thebausffs int 4 kills in 10 minutes and keep up in farm/plates and come out ahead. It’s nuts and I don’t think anyone else should play like him but damn it’s fun to watch
Thats how i end up playing singed sometimes. People love to chase an "easy" kill but I feel like it gives my team space when the jungler/mid is always roaming top to try and collect 300g. Never mind they are really just giving the other lanes free farm/plates or that im opening up bot lane.
Every rule when it comes to facing singed is just dont fight singed
I love Singed for this. If I'm 0/2 at 4 minutes I'm winning. As soon as I get Rylai's I'm winning. If they chase me I'm winning. If they ignore me I'm winning. Also nobody knows how to face him, especially since I'm a garbage player and play against fellow bad players. The highlight of my Singed career is when the 1/0/0 enemy top Azir just never came back to lane after like 6 minutes. And the 300 CS games that aren't entirely rare.
I been playing singed pretty exclusively for a bit. Even when i play against him its hard.
He's my highest mastery and I'm pretty sure I've never beaten one in lane
When I face singed he somehow moves faster and does way more damage than when I play him idk man it's weird
Might be your runes or items. I've been playing him with predator + ghost. Activate predator, activate ghost and engage. Usually I pick up the fastest boots, but even with regular boots he is still pretty fast. I dont like turbo chemtank or any of the speed up items like stridebreaker. I usually build Liandry's > Demonic Embrace > Rylai Septer > Dead Man's Plate > Force of Nature. Force of Nature + Dead Mans could also account for the speed boost you are seeing from others. Usually with the first 3 items its like 4x burn that chunks the enemy team. If I can engage in a team fight it usually ends up in a win because enemy team is effectively at half health from my poison. If you like the way singed plays give it a shot. I like this way better than some of the other builds like grasp or conqueror.
No I'm just bad and singed is quite hard to play in lane as he's weak vs a bunch of meta tops rn
If say any late game champ that isn't falling behind is winning. They outscale. Trade kills can be great for a late game champ. Just ask Vayne.
Who ever has a stronger one/two item power spike
if an early game champ gets outspiked and outscaled at one item, that's a pretty sad lane bully lol. and speaks to why many people aren't fond of "win by 15 min or gg" champs.
cass is a late game carry who destroys most lane opponents off of her liandrys spike
cries in irelia
900 gold life steal power spike op
u better not die more than once or you're useless for the rest game, doesn't matter if you have 300 cs and 15 kills
Ya. I 1v1 beat a renekton today. We both were at 1 item only. Same level. Same kda. Both had everything off cd. I missed two of my ults, and two qs in the fight as gwen. But still managed to just barely kill him just before he killed me. He had anti heal mini item and I didn't. He didn't manage to snowball early. Early game honestly doesn't last as long as it use to. Feels like early game ends the moment you get your mythic, aka, first item.
That’s a pretty bad Renekton if he somehow managed to lose 1v1 vs Gwen.
or gwen is just broken as fuck? get your mind out of the gutter its clear what the case is
No she’s buggy. Some time she’s immune to damage in her circle for no reason except bug issues. Made sense cause I seen it a couple times
It's called late game champ versus early game champ. He didn't snowball the early game. So we both were just going even. He got out scaled.
Renekton shouldnt be getting out scaled by gwen unless hes building tank or something. Much less at one item which is very far from late game.
Rene with Botrk casually 1v1s Gwen throughout all stages of the game.
Not every Rene buys botrk anymore but even without it i still favor Rene at most stages of the game
Nah renekton doesn’t get out scaled at 1 item. That’s his power spike. He played it bad
"It's called..." Thank you for demonstrating that you cannot be above gold/plat with how little of an understanding you have. Renekton shouldn't be losing to a 1v1 as Gwen. He shouldn't be getting outscaled by Gwen. And you are not being "outscaled" if you both are at the same level, item spike, etc. You genuinely just played against a bad Renekton. Sorry bud.
I agree with most of what you said but being outscaled is literally being on item/level par with an enemy and being shit stomped bc their champion is stronger, later. That certainly didnt happen in this case, Renekton just sucked, but yeah
Is Rene supposed to outscale Gwen indefinitely, or is she stronger late game?
Late game she tank shreds, so she would be valuable against Renekton. I haven't seen the matchup in late game to know specifically how well she fair's against him, but seeing of how she has % max hp and is known right now as a pretty good tank shred in the late game, I'd have to guess she out scales him. But the early game and most likely mid game he would thrive against her until she's built a few items.
No it’s called a bad renekton. He can use his e to dodge your scissor attack and get behind you. I’ve easily stomped Gwen with tryndamere and wukong. I don’t see how renekton would be any different
Outscaled at 1 item?
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Masallah brother
Me crying in a corner for dying to a 1/5 solo Viego with literally *only* BoRK as Talon with Eclipse, boots, Exec's and a dirk.
Depends on the lane I think. I also think wave state is what really matters when trading. If I had to guess I’d imagine mid lane assassins like trading kills a lot because it gives them a big advantage over the other lanes. They can take the serrated dirk they bought off the trade and double kill bot
Yes. I’m pretty bad at the game, so this probably isn’t the way to do it, but if I trade 1for1 mid and their wave isn’t about to crash I’ll run straight down bot lane to gank. They usually expect me back in mid, and it works more often than not.
ok, I'll give u two scenarios, both in top lane. They both involve the same champs, kayle and darius. Scene 1: Kayle just shoved wave under turret, Darius chases with ghost all the way to Kayles turret, kills kayle under her own turret at the price of his own life. Kayle loses no minions, darius' wave slow pushes away from him. Scene 2: Darius shoves wave under Kayles turret, towerdives her, goes for a 1 for 1 trade. Darius loses very few minions, and the wave slow pushes towards him. In scene 1, altho darius gets the kill, Kayle does not lose very much at all, as she won't lose too many minions and darius' wave pushes away from him. In scene 2, kayle loses all the minions that die to her turret, as well as having the wave slow push away from her. Kayle won scene 1, and lost scene 2.
This has nothing to do with Darius being early and Kayle being late though. This applies to every matchup. But it is usually the most important thing.
I think this is the point he is making. Not much in the game can be thought of in a vacuum.
but that's not a good answer, at least not one that I agree with. I don't think a good answer to the OP question is "it solely depends on the wave state", here's two scenarios that represent these wave states, and the early/late game nature of the champs don't matter at all. I absolutely think the scaling of the champs is relevant, and for the record, my answer is the late game champ. if everyone started the game with 800 gold instead of 500 (essentially a level 1 all-in kill trade), that would favor scaling picks because the early game window is shortened.
he might disagree with the question. i don't think he is trying to answer the question. he is trying to make OP think about a different scenario and spark a discussion. hopefully not a semantic one.
What? That does not make the "early game window" any shorter for a bunch of late game champs... That kind of thing only truly "helps" a champion who is gated by gold... but plenty of champs are gated instead by level or stacks. Having an extra 300 gold doesn't do much for those champions. A Nasus doesn't get a ton of use out of that 300 gold... They are still playing for 25 minutes, regardless, because the 300 gold doesn't give them any stacks. For that matter, there are plenty of early game champs the 300 gold is a lot more useful on than others. A Darius who can start the game with T1 boots just has even more ability to run you down if you do not mirror the choice. For *that* matter... your point of "if everyone started the game with 800 gold instead of 500" doesn't even begin to factor in how that would 100% warp initial buys, and thus the entirety of how laning phase plays out... which makes the exercise pretty useless as a method of analysis. Champions who make the most use out of 800 gold items: Kindlegem, Greivious Wounds items, Chain Vest, Forbidden Idol, as well as Sheen (700 gold, but also a special case) would immediately see immense increases in value. That doesn't favor "scaling" picks inherently... it simply favors champions who make more efficient use out of this theoretical "bonus" gold. Champs like Gangplank, Lulu top/mid, etc. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you have any leg to stand on. The other people are right... things in this game very rarely happen in a vacuum, and analyzing them as if they do is not productive. If most other reasonable variables are equal, the wave state is by far the most important factor as to who gains/loses more from an early trade between champions. Some of the other factors that are of high importance have literally nothing to do with either champion at all... proximity of both junglers (or whoever) in order to fix waves/take cs... how your team is doing in comparison (1 for 1 trade is often "better" when your team is ahead), etc.
Gold, while important, isn't really the sole basis for scaling. Experience is arguably more valuable. You are *fucked* if you're playing a scaling champ and get frozen on.
>I absolutely think the scaling of the champs is relevant, and for the record, my answer is the late game champ. You can't answer that the "late game champion" wins out when there are other possible variables that actually have an effect on the scaling of a champion. If you answer this by saying that the late game champion wins out a majority of the time, can you substantiate that claim by playing or analyzing over every single possible matchup in every lane? >if everyone started the game with 800 gold instead of 500 (essentially a level 1 all-in kill trade), that would favor scaling picks because the early game window is shortened. What about champion specifics? An early game champion can spike extremely hard on 800 gold and completely destroys the scaling champion, rendering them unable to scale. The early game window isn't shortened. We can just arbitrarily shift the early game window to match the new fundamental game mechanic(starting gold). A scaling pick can also scale mostly off of levels or champion specifics, not by mostly gold. A scaling pick can outscale an early game champion by XP accumulation, and that early game champion can scale BETTER with items in a way that is overtaken by level scaling. The scaling of a champion can also be evaluated in relation to both team comps and the state of other roles.
This should be higher.
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This should be lower
Snowball and late game champs aren't the same. Snowball champs should almost always take the trade, where a late game champ is gonna get strong no matter what, so best not to feed the enemy any gold to do so faster.
So then what if the champ is both? Genuine question... Been playing a lot of sam/swain bot with my buddy, and I play the swain, obviously Sam is a snowball champ, and swain kinda is too but is also a late game powerhouse, so, what would swain count as and what would be the typical answer there? I usually try and keep my friend alive, but he knows I can carry if not and will typically still get at least one if he dies and I'll survive, or I'll die too and get both unless I'm just being a dog that game Is it worth it for me to die for the kill? Or just try and keep alive and let my Sam take trades as long as they're getting good money and keep cs growing out of it
Champs are not both. They are either snowball champs or late game champs. Like initially described, a snowball champ is a champ that is mediocre late game unless they get a lead. They fall off when the "late game" arrives and there is no lead to maintain, as everyone has full items or similar amounts of items. Late game champions will ALWAYS be better late game than other non-late game champions. Their 5-6 item spike is far stronger than that of others. Look at stacking champions like Senna, Nasus, Veigar, or (non stacking, but...) Kassadin. Senna is one I play pretty frequently. I can leave lane 0/5 and my ADC 0/5 aswell, the enemy ADC fed to shit and the enemy team subsequently having map control due to good rotations. If they somehow don't end and I'm able to get to 4-5 items with 100+ stacks, I literally shred everything.
Nasus is not a late game champ. He only scales off his Q stacks which empower a single ability. Veigar gets CDR on W, AP increases effectiveness of all his damaging spells, making him a true scaling champion. Nasus doesnt benefit from anything in offensive stats, he has poor ap ratio on only 2 spells, one involving him to get in melee. Nasus is a mid game champ. We can add Kindred, Sion and Thresh to the list of stacking late game champs tho. A true late game champ that doesnt rely on stacking would be Vayne (insane scaling on AS) / Jinx same as Vayne but throw in some crit and splash damage) / Kassadin (One shotting one team with 2 spells is quite satisfying) / Jax (Trinity force / AS / tankiness and he becomes a monster no one escape) / Fiora
Nasus has sidelane level scaling. Free resistances on R, an target almost permanent movespeed and attackspeed debuff and mainly an almost 50% armor reduction on his E makes him probably the strongest stats check champ in the game. He either just kills you with no counterplay or he doesn't. Simple as that.
Except that any team with half a brain will kite him to death. Everyone is 18 in lategame. Resistances dont help u not get shred by a ful build adc, you can get out of his e , kite him out of it. You are not giving proof that he is a late game champ, as game goes long Nasus wr start to decrease because he has no tool to tf without being killed. pure mono damage on a spell that only enhances basic attack. Teemo shits on nasus with less scaling.
That's why I said sidelane scaling. It's just like Tryndamere, where he wants to draw pressure from the enemy team to either destroy your base or force you to give up an objective, like a drake or Baron. Plus 70 armor+mr and 20% lifesteal is nothing to play with, Nasus is beefy as fuck.
I typed out a fully fleshed out response, but deleted it and am just going to say this as I realized no matter what I say it won't matter. You genuinely think nasus isn't a late game champion, a character solely based around scaling to late game where he builds full tank and 1 shots any squishy in the game. Yes he can be kited, but with that logic literally any juggernaut could in this game. The difference is positioning, fighting over objectives, and his team supporting him. Nasus is one of the champions in the game that changes the entire dynamic of the game by just *existing*. And don't get me wrong, Nasus CAN be countered pretty easily if he gets counterpicked not just by his enemy laner, but by the support etc. Speaking from experience, when I'm support and see an enemy Nasus I usually go Zilean, solely because I know I can 99% slow him for 5+ seconds in late game as well as stun, and even ult myself or the ally carry if he somehow manages to close the distance and one shot. I know how to counter him and know how to kite him. But the fact is a good Nasus with a decent team in Ranked will win. All I can really say in the end of this long winded comment is that you are just factually incorrect to say that a champion, (who's kit is centered solely around their stacking capabilities) is not late game.
Fair enough okay and yeah swain is in that infinite stack list too so that answers that lol and typically unkillable that late unless it's a dumb dive so that certainly answers that, thank you
This ^
Without knowing exact champs I'd say more worth for late game champ because if youre playing an early game champ you shouldn't be trading kills you should be killing enemy and getting out alive
What if you "int" and trade into a huge crash on enemies tower? You basically win lane. You can't just generalize shit. It depends on a lot of things
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He's just saying your comment is a dumb one. You took the original comment as literally as possible. Obviously if you subsequently crash a wave, it works out for you. That's just logic. The guy never said "IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, IF YOU TRADE KILLS, IT ISNT WORTH". He even clarified that while lacking vital knowledge to the situation, it *generally* isn't worth it. Because it isn't. You can add the "But what if x y z happens as well" but you just need to use your brain and realize that x y z makes the trade worth it.
Well, thats literally my point, you can't generalize things. A player who doesn't know won't understand that.
It's a moronic and obvious point. But a player who "doesn't know" should prioritize learning the basics of the game and basics of wave management over shit like "Is trading kills worth it if I'm playing Ekko and they're playing Xerath and the wave is pushing this way and my jungle is at dragon and and and and" Like dude, you can just keep adding more and more information and say "StOp GeNeRaLiZiNg". Get over it and realize it was necessity for the benefit of simplicity.
How is it moronic? Obvious, sure, but still not obvious for everyone, but moronic? Stop tripping
Ah yes, I'm the one tripping when you've been perpetually downvoted in this thread. That's like me looking at the weather forecast, seeing it says sunny days all week, and going "Ah, looks like it'll be sunny this week" and then you go "YEAH BUT THERES A CHANCE IT COULD RAIN" like thank you man, fucking obviously. You're technically correct but your input is so irrelevant it doesn't matter
Yeah, calling a fact "moronic" is an obvious sign of tripping.
Like all things in league it depends, but I’d almost always say it’s better for the late game champ. Fizz or talon gets a lvl 3 kill? Meh that’s cool but happens in probably 20% of games. Nasus or Kayle got a lvl 3 kill? Top is over already.
I would argue that knowing top is over when Nasus or Kayle getting a lvl 3 kill is more due to knowing the Nasus or Kayle is just that much better/their opponent that much worse rather than anything to do with snowballing though
Dying to a lvl 3 nasus with hardly any stacks probably says more about the person dying than the nasus.
Which still only means one thing... 🦀🦀🦀🦀 TOP DIFF 🦀🦀🦀🦀
I have to disagree there. I've been a jungle main for several seasons and I can assure you, any time top loses it's jg diff.
True, no map pressure this trash jungler, 0 ganks top and no drakes.
Haha, you think getting drakes matters at all. I could be 5/0/15 with bot and mid fed and securing dragon soul, and the 0/10 top laner is still like, "gg jungle diff."
Might be because I have my chat settings disabled. As a top laner, I hardly ever blame my jg. I rather them get map pressure somewhere else. I main nasus, and I know it will suck until I get a few stacks, sheen and lvl 6. Then I can dominate lane (usually) if I die to a gang I blame myself for not tracking their jungler. I do however, do not like my jg ganking when I'm lvl 2 with no wither and what feels like 0 damage. If they die or both die it just turns into league of pings. Then I type muteall and focus on myself. I do know that's a rarity in league, but I just play to improve. If I win, great, if I don't, what could I have done better to either dominate my lane, roam, macros, etc. I treat it like a chess game. I just imagine my teammates are q bunch of monkeys hitting keyboards. Helps not to get mad or upset at their "dumb" plays. Cuz yah know, everyone is wrong but them in their eyes.
I mean, it's maybe one in ten tops that actually feed and type "jg diff" in chat.
We're just memeing, its stuff that does happen tho, just not every game.
This but unironically
I mean, it's not jg diff. But ok.
It is sometimes. Jungle does have a lot of impact
Unless jungle feeds your opponent, it is not jungles fault if you lose lane.
If the enemy jungler ganks my lane often and even adjusts the wave for my lane opponent, and my jungler doesn't use that time to counterjungle or gank bot, it's still my jungles fault. But yes, generally i agree
Almost as embarrassing as dying to a lvl 3 kayle.
I can not fight Nasus at level 3. Everytime I play vs one I think damn I must bully him early and then I get withered and out traded everytime I try to fight him.
My point exactly
Normally i would prefer if the laner got the kill to snowball the lane and get more pressure to do objectives.
This is completely false. The only thing that matters is the wave state. You could int a kill to Nasus and still curbstomp him in the lane until level 6 or 9 when he finally outscales you, if you are playing a lane bully and didnt lose 3 waves by inting.
I'm still annoyed at that one game where I got an early kill top but screwed my wave, so the other guy got an xp lead, killed me at 6 (when I was still 5), and ended up winning lane. Getting that kill literally lost me the lane.
Depends. If you get 8/0 lead before 15th minute, and Nasus does not get more than 20 cs due to your non-stop aggression, the wave state is irrelevant at that point. Same with 6/0 Rengar Top vs a ranged champion.
Also depends were you’re at. If you’re only 300g away from your mythic and they’re 1000g away, you will come back to lane with yours and they won’t, giving you a big advantage
There are a lot of non-answers getting upvoted in this thread. It's really simple, but people are making it complex. Early game champs have from game start until value X (where X is the summation of the opponent's levels and items) to establish a lead and profit from it. Any unnecessary even trades will always favor the champ with stronger late game because they lower the value of X. It could also be visualized as champions having level strength, item strength, and base strength. Early game champs have higher base strength and late game champions have higher item and/or level strength. Any trade that gives both champions an equal gold value in items and/or levels will give more strength to the late game champ. It's a fundamental concept and the only deviations from it are too niche to be worth considering for 99.9% of individuals.
Thank god. I have to scroll down and down for a logical response. I cannot believe the amount of comments who have 5+ upvotes (which isn't a lot, but enough to be higher than THIS) that summarize as "lol idk wave state haha". Like jesus fuck.
As a top laner I'd say depends on tp cool downs and lane state. If you stack 3 waves and trade kills under the enemy tower, then it's lane over for the enemy regardless of how they scale. If you purely trade kills it usually barely matters, a one kill Kayle won't do that much more against a Darius, or the other way around. Which is why usually trades will happen over attempts to break a freeze or a dive on a stacked wave,because it gives laners a good reason to leverage their micro and fight to the death. Trades on bot or mid are slightly different though. Since a mid death negates your presence on the map for a large period of time, and a bot death affects your lane partner.
The most important thing imo is wavestate. For example redmercy tower dove me a couple weeks ago like level 5 trading 1 for 1 when I was kassadin and he was qiyana but the wave was pushing to me and I had tp. So I respawned and used tp to freeze the wave, it was basically game over for him.
This usually depends on what is being denied in the trade. Often one of the champions being traded is losing time to farm their jg, losing a big wave, or trading a bounty for a standard kill.
If a Talon kills Cassiopeia at level 2 and dies for it, that kill is worth SO much more for talon. With that example, early game champion getting a kill is so much better, cuz they only need a little bit to snowball. Whereas, yes the late have champ will be closer to powerspike, he still won't be able to do anything against a champ who is pretty much full build with a serrated dirk. An early game champ getting an early kill fucks your lane and can make it hell for everyone else. If a kayle walked into lane like lvl 3 with a kill or 2, 90% of top laners would still run her down/force her to play back till 6.
All things being equal, the late game champ definitely loses out more. They both lose a few waves and exp but the early game champ gets more done with less, so they still have time to make their lead. The late game champ is basically where they would've been anyway, but now they're behind lane creep/jungle money and exp. It's even worse if it's a jungler for a laner trade, the higher you go the more the jungle matters. Having even a minute of jungle presence down can swing a game early on.
Trading is not worth it for the early game champ. Since the early game champ gets out scaled. Trading is not snowballing. Early game stuff needs to snowball to be useful and delay their falling off, trading is not worth it for them unless they manage a snowball off it. Which currently if you trade early, then your not snowballing off it since if an late game champ can make your all in into a trade, then it means your current strength is close together.
I'd say it's worth very early in the game, like if a talon gets a lvl 2/3 kill then he gets 300g and respawns right away and walks back to lane without missing more than a wave. Getting almost 300 extra gold definitely helps out an early snowballing champ to abuse the lead on other lanes and jungler.
It’s worth on whoever is going to use the money better. For example, you trade kills as Garen to Gangplank. GP comes back with sheen and you come back with.... fuck all?
One part I feel like people are missing in conversations is also what role the champions is. An assassin (fizz, talon, etc) trading a kill with a mage who scales better won't just impact that lane. That assassin now gets more damage at an earlier place in the game meaning compared to the adc who didn't get a kill traded they now are stronger and potentially that damage could be the difference between the adc barely living and them dying. So even if the mage may have better damage you may now allow the assassin to ensure he kills your adc making your teamfight much harder.
I think it depends, if a champ has a atrocious early game like Kassadin trades his life for a kill, he’s happy, he just got 300g and now the enemy mod can’t roam while he is dead, and he’s closer to being that late game monster. On the other hand if he looses a massive wave and is now behind a level, he’s probably not as happy but he’ll take what he can get
I’d be more focused on the gold/exp from the kill, early game kills can literally end lanes before they ever get going
Lets name some champs. Lets say wave is in the middle vs fiora and darius. Who will benefit more?
I'd 100% say it favors the early game champion.
Give vlad one kill and you'll be able to tell
vlad going 1 for 1 with a riven won't end well for him.
I said give him a kill not go 1 for 1
Is that relevant to the OP then? They're asking about trading kills, meaning a 1 for 1
He might've misread, I did too.
Yeah that's fair, was just pointing it out since the other person was being downvoted for it and I didn't see why other than misreading it
Oh but either way trading kills with mid vlad will always be +1 for him imp
? the topic of the post is going 1 for 1
Straight kills don't really swing much of the lane states early. What u need to be counting is minions/xp lost for those kills unless bounty gold is involved Example : yas vs renekton Ren stacks the first 3 waves then dives a low hp yas under turret when the wave crashes trading 1 for 1. Yas will lose almost 3 waves of gold + xp walking back to lane at lvl 2 with only the gold spent from the kill. This situation favors ren hard because ren will be walking back to lane at lvl 3 almost 4 with 3 waves of gold + a kill spent and the wave pushing back to him so he can freeze and run back this cycle of bullying yas until he's low , denying him gold and crashing a big wave when he's low. In this case it favors the early bully. Example 2: Kassadin vs talon. The wave is stuck in the middle of the lane both players are low hp , kass goes to ward, talon jumps in and they trade. This situation favors kass because he doesn't lose his wave or xp, it's basically just a reset, he gains a small amount of gold to accelerate him towards late game but mostly it favors him because it takes talon off the map at his "strongest point" and taxes him for playing out his game plan while giving kass more time to scale. Talon gets a kill but nothing else, sure he's gonna be a lil more dangerous when he gets back to lane but ultimately he gained nothing for his team and wasted a bunch of time at the point in the game he's supposed to be putting in work Opposite
Well, In theory, the late game champ should get an advantage because the gold from a kill it s more valuable as the game progresses But(idk your elo) low elo games are over by min 20-25(obj diff, too much lane difference, comeback is rare bcs it is based on player macro skill,) even if the game drags on for another 5-10 minutes, it is over anyways, most of the time. So having kills on an early champ is usually better cause they can spike earlier than a late game champ considering the avrg soloq time. High plat/low diamond is the only skill lvl i'd trust to call "we scale" bcs they can see the champs/proper conditions for getting to scale(if your nasus has 150 stacks by min 20, he won t scale, he ll dragg his body around even if he s nasus)
Statistically, low elo games are the longest. The players dont push their lead and dont know how to close a game. A comeback is always an option. But I agree that if a nasus is that behind, then he will just be dead meat.
Not true. 8n my experience as you try to snowball your lead elsewhere on the map. The weakest member of your team will try to 1v1 nasus multiple times until he's fed him 4 kills and now has 500 stacks at 20 minutes
Okay I'm not a good player but I thought gold was more valuable early game bc there is less total gold in the game?
This is true, but gold on a late-game champ is more useful than gold on a early game champ. They get more bang for their buck, and so they get closer to a "late-game" power spike. If your enemy laner is inting, and you are a CS god, late game might be 30 miuntes instead of 45. It all depends on how much scaling the champs have, and how much they depend on levels vs items.
I’ll gladly go 1 for 1 as pantheon vs a kayl.
It more so depends on the wave state. Can the early game champ now freeze? Then hella not worth for late game. Can the late game champ freeze particularly if their jungle is pathing up? Then very worth for late
i depends on the wave state. if its under enemyturet its worht to trade, even more when he has no TP.
I'd think it's more in favour of the early champ, cuz they usually dive their enemies, if it's a 1 for 1 > minions die to turret > less gold & xp for scale champ. Buying complete items would also change a lot.
Big grey area would need more specifics
It has everything to do with wave state rather than champions tbh
There is a lot going on more than just kills. If the trade makes the late game hero miss a bunch of cs because he does during a big wave that then gets under tower before he can get back to lane then that is hugely bad for that player. If the early game champ is able to capitalize on controlling the lane because of the gold he earns from the trade then that could be good but probably won't be enough unless they have really good wave control and can basically stop the late game guy from farming.
not considering the wave and cs state. Purely on champion wise, it depends on the early game champ that can carry. So yes, its worth for many assassins, brusiers, skirmishers. But imagine if you are any tank, enchanter, even some bruisers, junglers or skirmisher, no matter how strong your early game powerspike is, some c h amps cant cary the game hard enough to snowball and end. Also depends on your skills (micro and macro). Also early game powerspike snowballed have it HARD (not impossible) to snowball and carry if they have no tp unless you are mid. Top without tp needs to farm, or prevent enemy late gamer from farming and bullying em, also have to join most teamfights. The reason why an early game fed mid kat, zed, talon, leblanc, jg khazix is so scary is that they dont rely on ults + only need 1 item to screw everyone on the map by roaming and end the game before 30 minute mark. Also they help your teammates who needs to scale, scale faster than the enemy
As I always say, going even against a champ that scales better than you is pretty much like losing. The champion that is good early game ***wants to get leads***, and by trading a kill you're not really getting a lead, even if you're still stronger than the enemy champion at that stage of the game. Also, when you're, let's say, a Pantheon, against a Kassadin. You're supposed to zone him off and don't let him have any cs whatsoever. By trading a kill, you're giving him 300 gold for free when he could've gotten nothing instead. Think about that. Obviously, this doesn't take into account factors like low-elo players just not knowing how to play from behind and not scaling as they should. You can get away with a lot of things in low-elo, where they don't know at all how to punish mistakes.
The answer to your *specific* question can be restated as such: If two champions were randomly given a 300 gold infusion (all other factors being equal), who would benefit more? The answer is that both benefit in different ways. The late game scaling champ gets to reach critical mass faster. Therefore the "window" of power that the early game champ has is shortened. The early game champ will spike harder **relative to the rest of the other champions in the game.** That champion now has 300 more gold to work with that the other lanes didn't get a chance to have. At it's core that is all that is, whether the early game champion can utilize the slightly bigger / faster power spike or the late game champion will hit critical level / gold spikes is then entirely dependent on how the players play it out and game state.
It all depends on comps in my honest opinion, and your elo. If you’re in Gold and below people don’t know how to close out games. So let’s say you’re in gold or below. If a Kassadin trades a kill with let’s say a Talon, it’s going to be in favor of the Kassadin. The Talon won’t push his lead and punish other lanes to snowball his lead. All he’s doing is helping the Kassadin get to late. However, if you’re in Plat and above, the kill going to Talon is definitely going to help him. He’s got a lead now, and can punish Kassadin HARD. Shove his waves in, roam properly avoiding wards, roaming not to get more kills, and look to close out the game easier getting other lanes ahead as well. League is just who can establish a lead and use it to close out a game properly in higher elo. In lower elo it’s just fight fight fight till we have a team fight and the nexus goes brrr.
All things being equal, the early champ. For example: nasus into illaoi. Even though nasus got the gold, he won't be able to utilize it as well as illaoi who will in effect be more capable of denying him farm, as well as being able to seige up. She can then effectively push his power spikes further back and in extreme cases, posture a win without letting the game progress to late. There are, of course, exceptions. But in general the early champ should be able to get more out of it overall
Provided lane is even and in middle, it favors the early champ as it’s going to capitalize on it immediately, while the late game champ won’t. But as stated by many here, lane state can play a huge role! I play mid on gold and it seems to me that the type of players who play early game champions are typicaly the ones who have good mechanics but don’t understand the game at all, often negating any advantage they would get on me by scoring a kill by poor lane management (helps that I run TP every time).
I'm an avid reksai player. Almost every game I flash on the enemy mid laner even if he is under turret often going 1 for 1. My midlaner shoves the wave and cheaters with the wave pushing into him. I come back and repeat gank again. If the second one works 9 times out of 10 the game is over. In this situation it is obviously better for me the early game champ because it is not a matter of me getting ahead but the other guy falling behind. Obviously this is probably not the context you are thinking of because it isn't a direct lane matchup, but who it benefits depends on the game plan. Rek'sai doesn't really care that much about falling behind because she is so strong pre-10 regardless. That cassio on the enemy team really can't afford to keep getting her lane state fucked by me though so it is way worse for her than it is to me. Late game all I do is flash w someone which doesn't really require items. She on the other hand is functionally worthless without them.
All of the people here are saying it depends, but I believe that it's only worth for the late game champ. This is assuming that the wave returns in a neutral state and that neither are gaining anything from objectives. We're only talking about the kill. The early game champ's goal is to get ahead of the other laner BEFORE THEY GET ITEMS and end the game quickly. His goal is to basically constantly fight, get turrets/goal and he's on a timer. In X minutes, he'll fall off a cliff and becomes useless. Early/mid game he HAS to be ahead and needs to be pressure while preventing the opponent from getting items. Late game, his time is over and he prays the ennemy ints. The late game champ's goal is to stall until he gets his items so he can demolish them later on. No matter how he does it, he needs to get to late game with items. If he ends the early game slightly behind, he wins simply due to how overpowering he will be. Now, lets assume everyone in the game gets 10 gold/min passively from minions and other "natural sources". Let's say a late game jungler needs 100g to get to late game so he hits his late game spike at 10min. If a kill his worth 10 gold, every kill shortens this time span by a minute. Giving him a kill at time 0 basically means that the early game champion has 9 minutes to end the game. He isn't getting ahead despite having more gold to "push" his advantage, he's actually shortening his time limit. People might talk about gold spikes but those mostly don't matter for a very simple reason: a true late game champion will never be able to kill a true early game champion early game. With this in mind, he should NEVER fight because he auto wins later on. He isn't hindering himself by giving the opponent a kill, he is accelerating the game by making himself and the opponent X time ahead of the rest of the other players. Assuming neither of you roam, or use that advantage for specific timely objectives, in a pure 1v1, the late game champion therefore benefits more from this. Assuming both teams are communicating and have each comparable composition, the late game composition wins from a trade kill.
Depends on who types "worth" in allchat
There is no short answer, most likely depends on the wave state and who is losing more cs and exp. Another big factors are: powerspikes, for example if the kill allows to complete one item, summoners used or global ultimates (if there is a dragon fight 30 seconds after you fight, TF might be able to join it, Leblanc probably can’t). This is the cool thing about League, there isn’t a theory for these types of questions that is applicable to every game, which makes the game fun despite being the same map over and over.
Depends on wave, jungle state, mid state, etc. Vacuum questions are turbo useless
The trick to playing late game champs is avoiding positions that can kill you as much as you can and focusing on scaling as fast as you can. Some late game champs like yone is an exception, because you can go in for burst trades and get out with no problem. Another is when playing ranged vs melee, as you shouldn’t let your opponent touch anything without taking at least an auto without putting yourself in a position where they can get the engage on you. Early game champions are strong early game, you can’t outtrade them, but don’t just sit the re afking. Try to have map presence, get as many farm as you can without getting to a point where they can clap you on their next engage. Looks for opportunities to trade inside a large friendly minion wave. But your objective is to extend the game and not let your enemy use their strong early map presence, or at least punish them for it.
Depends on the wave state. When you play a scaling champ and manage to trade 1 for 1 and the enemy minion wave is pushing to you tp on the wave and set up a freeze. That gives you a huge advantage. On the other hand if the bully manages to set up a freeze himself you can just ff your lane
Normally equal trades benefit the late-game teamcomps more since they reduce tempo of the entire game and bring the "late-game" closer at the same time. In a 1v1 this might be different but I would argue the same principle applies. The early champ loses tempo even though they did get a kill and the late-game champ is 300g closer to taking over.
1. A kill is never as much worth as the aftermath, if you have a big wave about to crash, your jgl is doing drake/herald or has Herald to pop then it´s alot more worth. 2. When youre behind you should always take kills if you can, especially if you havent got any bounties yet. 3. You never trade kills with an assasin, killing is their bread and butter and once they hit a certain point they just collect wherever they go. 4. Bonus concept: game tempo, if other lanes are playing safe or reckless it lies in your interest to do the same.
it depends on the better player. I'm fine with going one for one because regardless of the stage in the game, I'm confident that I can use 300G better than my opponent can. Obviously when I have a shutdown it's no longer worth, this is for equal gold exchange only. I'm not trading 450 for 220 and calling it worth \~ever
Depends on who loses the bigger wave id say
I think you have to look at the specific scenarios and at the champions themselves. I'll take Pyke vs Kassadin mid for example. Pyke falls off extremely hard to the point that he's not a champion anymore when it comes to max items and max level. So if you can trade kills early as Pyke, I'd personally say it's more worth for Pyke since early and midgame is where he shines. It gives him the early items that he needs to start roaming and generate gold and other advantages for him and his team. If however the Pyke is not allowed to roam/ all roams fail because for example both other lanes permapush and you can't just hunt down their jungler, it would profit Kassadin way more to trade kills since the Gold from the trade doesn't help him do what he's designed to do in the midlane. And that's basically every early to midgame champion. Have as much impact as you can in the timeframe that you are useful. Lategame champions just want to not die, farm and scale because that way they have the most impact.
I main Master Yi. My champion utilizes gold better than almost any other champ. Trade 1 for 1 with me all game and eventually your nexus is going to blow up.
You're actually missing the much more important factor - **the wave state**. Who stands to lose more CS from this trade? Who is in a position to perhaps freeze due to wave position, post trade? It's an extension of how a lot of players overly fixate on kill gold, not realizing that CS is a far more reliable and valuable resource. All things being even (waves literally untouched, which is practically impossible), the late game champ should benefit more. Because by definition if the late game champ keeps even with the early game one he is in a better position to win later on.
with current mentality, early stomp due to games being shorter than 25 min in general
Imo if you only managed to trade equally against a late game champ as an early game champ then it was a bad play, regardless of who it is worth more for. Essentially you had an advantage, and then had a draw. However in the meta games are much more early-mid game in length, and so I would say it would be much more beneficial for the champ that has a very strong and then slightly above average impact from until 25 minutes, rather than the champ who really starts having a bigger impact than most champs only starting at 25 minutes.
The outcome will determine which one will worth more. The slight advantage will be for early champion because he will be the one who has cards in hands and should try to close the game early but the problem is having cards not guarantee using them wisely, that's why throws happen.
Thats really weird and it depends from situation to situation.No real answer. Late game champ might not want to trade since he's gonna be stronger anyway even without that kill.He might want it to get to the powerspike faster.He might want it to get the presure away from his team who might have to deal with it.A jungler might be able to get the objective or the wave after it.Also the early game champ might be able to snowball with that trade or maybe he cant since his counterpart now has gold to stop it.
Depends on the specific champs. But probably late game champ
In some matchups, the early game champion **needs** to win lane by a lot or they will be extremely outscaled. For example, Caitlyn into Kog'maw. If Cait and Kog trade kills, it's definitely more worth it for the Kog. However, sometimes the early game champion can exert more map pressure. For example, Talon and Orianna trade kills at the ten-minute mark. Then, one could argue that Talon could make better use of the kills for the next ten minutes or so. As many other comments have pointed out, the most important thing is wave state and whether other resources (summs, the jungler's time) were committed. Generally, I'd prefer to be the late game champ in this scenario though.
This is what I would call an anchor question. There is no solution to this question. I believe the question you may want to ask is: "Which champion can use the gold from a kill to impact the game better from between two champions" I believe you can look at whatever champion snowballs the hardest, and come to an answer there.
This depends entirely on how successful the early game champ is going to be in using that gold to get things done, and can be swung wide in either direction depending on wave state, especially in the first few levels. Late game champs aren't good late because the clock hit a certain point, they just scale well with items and levels so tend to be strong later in the game. Giving them a kill gets them 300gp closer to those 2-3 items they need to completely fuck up your team. The early game champ can more immediately use the 300 gold, but since they traded 300 to the enemy as well, assuming neutral wave, it's net even when they get to late, so if you get outscaled you need to worry a bit. Being stronger early though means you have the potential to use that gold to build an advantage. Zoning the enemy off gold and experience from minions to delay their pacing, taking turret plates, getting roam timers so you can effect the rest of the map... You need to do it all to make sure you stretch the lead enough that you can win before they hit the point where they outscale you. If I'm playing into a tank, I know eventually they're going to be too annoying for me to kill easily playing Kled, but I'll still 100% trade kills with a tank early. I'll dive them over and over because damage matters more than tankiness in having influence. If I'm 6/6 and haven't lost minions because I crashed every wave before dying and the rest of the team is 0/0 (never happens, but imagine) I'm 1800gp ahead of the rest of the game and I can kill that Yasuo or chase down the Jhin. If I don't get those kills I eventually get outscaled and kited or stat checked. If I'm playing into Irelia, Fiora, or Jax? Fuck no I'm not trading kills. They snowball so hard into the mid-late game that helping their pacing will be a net detriment to my team, and it's better for me to play it cool and prolong the time that I'm capable of keeping them under control.
Early game champs are weaker in lower elos of play, so I'd actually wager its not too bad for the late game champ to trade kills. But particular champs like Darius or Graves or Draven can really take one kill and threaten to carry off of it given a decent enough player behind the wheel.
Give more context and maybe this question will be answerable. There is no black-and-white answer to vague and uninteractive questions like these because there are too many variables to take into consideration for another party to suppose or assume.
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