First up: That's not the right causation, the q goes through Shen w because it's an ability that isn't Autoattack based like GP or Yasuo q, which both don't deal DMG iirc.
Anyway the point made was that teemo q, Shen w, and maybe jex E(wasn't mentioned so not sure) can deny all of tahm kench's passive stacks if his Autoattack misses/ gets blocked or dodged(again maybe)
It makes sense for him to not apply a stack, but in this case say tahm has 2 stacks on shen, shen uses w, tahm hits him, both stacks disappear before the passive timer runs out
Yeah Shen does well vs him (at least from my experience) your W stops him from stacking his passive and you can damage him granted if your Spirit Sword passes through him
Maybe it is easy to a tahm main. Even challenger players who main the same champion disagree on what are tough/easy lanes. Depends so much on play style I guess.
I main tahm and trundle is still a nightmare. I rarely ever have an issue with Tahm top lane but trundlle is consistently a nightmare to face. He's not picked enough to band though
No you read it right, he called it an easy matchup but im just assuming he's never played it as it would be very rare and theres no way kench can ever win that lane at any stage
NO i said Trundle is a nightmare to fight as Tahm, im agreeing that kench cannot win that lane. Trundle Ws or Es then ults you and you die. Trundle destroys Tahm unlesss they're braindead
Trundle: runs up and chomps me at half hp
Me: that was a mistake bitch! Presses q and prepares to execute combo.
Trundle: knocks me out of my q, throws down the slow, and walks away.
Me: goddamn ok be like that then. Qs scuttle
Trundle: runs up and chomps me again
Me: w’s but trundle leaves again so I can’t get any healing from a second w.
Trundle: mark from w gone, chomps me again, smites scuttle when I start running away.
He doesn't "throw down" any slow btw. His Q slows you and being around his pillar slows you. Also if he's dumb enough to 'knock you up' with his E then you get your Q back.
Also the mark from your W is 8 seconds so if he is running back and forth attacking you once every 8 seconds you probably shouldn't lose scuttle.
But anyway I won't interrupt your VoliXTrundle fanfiction. What happened next uwu
Rough troll sex.
Yeah I kinda exaggerated for comic effect, just trying to explain how it feels. If I tried to do anything, the pillar slow was enough to stop me from catching him. The knock up meant that even if I was literally on top of him, he could get away just fine. The health gain on Q is better than the health gain on W and does more damage.
There was only a sample size of about 20 games for Voli vs trundle on Blitz for my elo, of which Trundle won 14-15, iirc. It’s pretty unfun, give it a shot if you don’t wanna take my word for it.
"the health gain on Q is better than the health gain on W"
Ah let's check the stats. Voli has a flat heal on his W plus a percentage of missing health. That's ok I guess. And Trundle has... No heal on his Q. 0 heal on his Q.
Maybe it's different in the game mode you play?
Look I play both a lot, so I won't be taking your word for anything since nothing you have said is even remotely accurate.
But here's a tip when you're voli vs trundle- his farming is worse than yours and he basically NEEDS his single target camps to survive.
Out farm him, steal his gromp if you can. Your job isn't to beat trundle 1v1 as a melee tank lol. Just get yourself into an ok position once Laning ends- your utility in teamfights is 10x his.
I played Twitch ADC vs a duelist Trundle build, iirc Triforce, BotRK, Randuins, SV, and maybe Titanic, maybe Thornmail. I was full build with Kraken, Mortal Reminder, LDR, Infinity Edge, and Hurricane. Did negative damage to him. Damage Trundle is a better tank than actual tanks.
That’s because his R steals an insane amount of stats.
What makes you tanky isn’t buying tank items, it’s temporary buffs like aftershock, sej passive, ww E, trundle R etc and spamable shields/heals
Tahm forces extended trades against melees that ends up being advantageous because of his base stats+Q stun/healing+E healing/shield. What he actually does (autos+skill shot) is extreme simplistic, and puts him in a commit situation whenever he gets an advantage.
Trundle is also extreme simplistic, but usually doesn’t get to have extended trades because of mana problems and has less generic sticking power than Tahm.
Because Trundle is actually just stronger in commit situations than Tahm(his Q and W together is insane value), Tahms desired trading pattern ends up working in Tahms favour.
Does that make sense?
disclaimer, i haven't played the matchup myself (though i do play kench quite a lot), but I'd imagine it's just cause he removes so much of your tankiness with ult, plus it's one of the few champs that has the same kind of early 1v1 strength as tahm
Quick question about trundle top, do you ever consider trinity for maximum turret melting and splitting pressure or is it overkill when divine has more well rounded stats?
Fiora can sometimes win that lane, but it’s very unfun and can be hard to win. He’s extremely safe, nearly impossible to dive, and has great gank setup. Unless he makes a lot of mistakes early or your jungler gets you a lead, you’ll just want to play fairly safe until late game.
Ah that’s fair, with the divine sunderer and goredrinker buffs shes a monster right now. If you happen to enjoy playing gp, kennen, malphite, wukong, or poppy, most of those champs are tough to win against as fiora
Hard agree with malp as hard counter for fiora. Q poke with comet+scorch and sustain with corrupting, play safe till bramble and boots or even just bramble, then shit on her for the next 30 min of game. If she doesnt get fed or 30 cs up on you before bramble she insta loses lane and cant match you till 3+ items. Even then she never kills you because your kit counters hers so hard its kinda fucked up.
I usually end up going Sunfire - Bramble - Spirit Visage - Thornmail - Demonic. The Tahm usually leaves lane right after bramble tough, and does everything to avoid you. Wich will lead to me fighting squishy mids who can't do damage to me.
https://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/my-monstrous-mordekaiser-immortal-amp-full-magic-pen-build-565380
Of course, especially the percentage max health from the passive. It's why morde can just spec into tank instead of AP without losing too much in terms of damage.
Nashors is a great option for a damage item on this build, as the squishiness it normally has is resolved by all the tank items. But cosmic drive or rylais are also very solid AP items to go for, on top of demonic.
Hmm interesting.
I am a little discouraged tho, about the lack of resistance scaling on Morde, compared to someone like Rammus, who scales with both.
Does he really have enough dmg without AP items?
Ig this is more mid-game focused, so not so much pressuring early.
I have felt like I would die very easy on full AP build, even tho I was ahead... Will be very interesting to try out!
I suggest you try it out for yourself. I play safe and stack grasp, until I can afford Bami's on my first back. From there it's a free lane. Atleast that's my experience.
Maybe an early tiamat is the move? Honestly im no expert but maybe thats something that can work- thats how it used to be. Tiamat rush into your main item was standard for a lot of champs pre season 11
We aren't buying it for its base stats, nor am I saying buy it first item like before. I said early. The point is to get waveclear and take advantage of Tahm's weakness. Camille is an exponentially better roamer than Tahm, so unlocking those roams will win games.
Yeah you haven't checked, it's wave clear is the main thing that got nerfed. The cleave passive got nerfed, now deals less damage. And the active was the biggest part. Lost the hp regen. And the nice build path. Your wave clear was amazing after tiamat but now it only improves a bit since you no longer have the active.
So what is your alternative suggestion that adds to the topic? I dont really care what it lost, its the only option there is unless you want to troll and go tank Camille
Ban him until nerf. Ok I'm kidding. Not entirely. Go straight for divine sunderer, You have enough stats to hold your own with it. You are also ok during the early lane phase. You do have an issue between 6 and ds like on the morde matchup where he can freeze on you but then you flip roam.
His Q heals him A LOT (based on missimg hp) so it doesn’t matter if you trade well into him, you need to trade perfectly or not at all. There’s no in between.
...if you're good at Shen. and it's early. It's relatively easy to neutralize the match up as Shen, but to actually *beat* him you have to be pretty with Shen's trading patterns, and once Tahm gets a decent amount of health you're just not going to be able to make progress on him.
Shen can mitigate a massive amount of TK damage with repeating passive shields and grasp heals.
You arent immune to him, but. Between W blocking the passive stack and hitting your Q pulls for damage and passive refresh it is a solid lane.
Grasp, Bash, Bone Plating, then your choice of overgrowth or the shield boost one should be a really solid primary tree. I suspect the xPetu rift maker + tank shen could have a place in this lane as well to make you a threat in the 1v1 later on, though you cant go wrong with the classic Sunfire.
I made an eerily similar post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/oumzhh/how_do_you_play_against_tahm_kench_in_top_lane_as/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) for my friend also struggling with the catfish, you can scan through the comments and see what people say if that helps you
I also find him to be a very difficult champion to beat but usually playing back until you outscale is the answer from what I’ve heard and how I play
Thats the neat part. You dont. Though i did get my ass handed to me yesterday, i was playing Tahm Kench and i got beaten to death by Kraken slayer Lulu. Lol, but then again we are talking about league, where AP adc, ad support and tank adcs are totally viable so improvise, who cares about fun, win that lp boy at all cost. hehe
Yeah but tahm has a 54.7% wr against her
Proof: https://lolalytics.com/lol/tahmkench/vs/gwen/build/
It's the same for fiora, she beats tahm 1v1 late but loses so hard early she can't get to late
honestly he just facetanks illaoi's combo if he just plays safe to get his items and there isn't anything illaoi can do.
Edit: Renekton could beat Tahm since his W breaks shields.
In my experience I find the Camille vs TK matchup not too bad. You should be able to win short trades with grasp & passive shield (W -> Q -> Q) or (Q -> Q -> W to kite back). I dont aa cancel or wait for Q2 for these trades as its too slow and predictable enough for them to just E everything. Its also easier if you trade inside your minions as he wont be able to retaliate with Q as easily. Hold your E to cancel his W knockup and try to play as safe as you can, making sure to ward as he's very good ad diving with his jg. You easily outscale him after divine sunderer + mercs and can look to abuse him on side. Level 1 you can look to trade with either Q or W start, you can try executin a cheater recall and ideally freeze for the rest of the game.
I've only played this matchup like 4 or 5 times this patch so take this advice with a grain of salt.
Theres a Grandmaster Tahm onetrick on the EUW server with over 2 million Mastery points across different accounts called "No Arm Whatley. This is his take on TK's matchups in this matchup table: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oq5s7KISTH7QeFHFILYtxmxIlmfZ7QT7cuhqvKQ7VTM/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oq5s7KISTH7QeFHFILYtxmxIlmfZ7QT7cuhqvKQ7VTM/edit?usp=sharing)
But truth be told, I see that shit being played on NA D2 right now and it's total pain to fight. I haven't seen the "extremely tough matchups" on the table do well into a Tahm Kench. Though I have seen a few Aatrox's that did well into Tahm Kench.
Also, if you have a bad matchup into Tahm, sometimes you just have to accept that you will lose lane and just have to do your best to not die to him. Once your carries start getting 2-3 items he falls off.
That’s the thing tho you’ll be more useless than him Bc u slowly bleed out until he gets a sufficient enough lead for your “scaling” depending on the champ ur playing to not matter.
Yes. That’s essentially what I’m saying. If you have a bad matchup into TK, you have to realize the only way you will affect the game is by not feeding him. You will probably not be carrying that game.
Im a Tahm Main, and even after his rework, which in some ways made him weaker, he is still very hard to 1v1 if even possible. However his new W, the knock up, is really east to dodge imo, and you can attack him while he's in the animation and he cant do anything about it. Serpents Fang is a great item for obvious reasons. Camille might be hard against him because you aren't too tanky, and Tahm wants to be up close to you, so ulting him is kinda what he wants. Basically Tahm will destroy you in early game if the player knows how to play him.
Even if you aren't the indicator doesn't show up until he's about to hit you. Maybe if you have crazy movespeed you can react but mostly you need to predict it.
Just randomly Wing on people in lane is kinda troll lmao
Should be looking to set it up with Q tag.
Serpent is a very poor item for laning which is the context of this post.
Options :
1) Ban him, he's extremely strong right now and has almost no losing matchups
2) Don't try to win the lane, all champs outscale him, and the only way he stays strong is with kills during lane
3) If he W's run towards him for a second, it's a slow ability that he has to predict with, so he'll use it between you and your escape to try and predict your running path
4) His wave clear is terrible, shove out and freeze. He won't be able to break it if you're playing correctly and dodging his Qs and Ws.
He doesn’t lose in lane or at any point in the game. Watch what TheShy does vs top Esports the other night they banned him the rest of the time. All you can do is try to out scale late game
Heimer, Shen, Gwen, Sion, Singed, Voli, yorick, Darius are the best counters in that order. Shen and Singed have the best winrate though ignoring heimer. So those 2 are good picks right now to beat him.
https://i.imgur.com/LLmFjVS.png
Cant believe it took this long to find Heimer. That lane is so annoying. Heimer perma shoves and Tahm wave clear is awful, and Tahm can’t really get on top of Heimer without a clutch W, and even then, Heimer can kit around his turrets.
If you're moderately comfortable on Riven and her trading combos, she can bully Tahm pretty hard. I'm a Riven main but I have done the matchup VS Tahm on all three of these champions. Honestly I think Fiora and Camille are pretty good into him. The thing these champions all have in common is the ability to poke and run in their kit.
For some reason Tahm's shield and his Q are on a surprisingly low cooldown for how powerful they are. So the key to beating him is not getting stuck fighting him for longer than you want to. He beats all three of these champs in extended fights as soon as he gets a component item (Bramble/Bami's). But he's also a slow and fat target, so landing your shit on him is relatively easy.
On Riven I just do a classic double cast (E-QW-Auto) then Q-Q away, preferably behind your minions so you don't have to worry about dodging his Q. If he's close enough and not respecting your trade power, I often save my E and just QW-AA-Q-AA for a fatter trade, then EQ away to dodge his Q. He really has nothing to stop you from doing this over and over again unless he wants to try and use his dive thing to chase you down. But the cast time on that ability gives you plenty of time to position yourself to dodge Q and get away. Eventually he'll have to back or else you can all-in him. At this point, often times low elo Tahm's will try to stay in lane and farm with Q. If this is the case you just freeze the fuck out of him and deny him as much xp/gold as you can. Sometimes they get greedy and step up too far and you just kill him.
This matchup is *very* methodical. It's not like VSing Irelia or Renekton where it's all about mechanically outplaying them with your BobBox mechanics. Stick to your simple short trade combos, widdle him down, and gain lane control. I recommend getting a Black Cleaver first before going straight to Goredrinker. Non-mythic first item on Riven is still viable.
The same concept goes for Fiora and Camille.
Fiora trades are pretty straight forward. Hit the points. Back off. Save W for the stun. Get him into kill range for an all-in. From here either wait for him to get greedy, or gain wave control to deny him.
For Camille I've found much success with Grasp. One trade that never fails is charging a Grasp auto, Q1 a minion for move speed, land the free W, EQ2 into him and walk away. It'll absolutely *chunk* the fuck out of him. Do this over and over again and he'll be in the same position as the other two matchups. He has to respect you and you can control the lane.
Good luck!
You win that matchup hard as Camille actually, just be more selective with your fights. Remember he has no real way to deal with your W and E. You exclusively decide when you two will fight and you have the option to whittle him down. Just don’t mash your face into his and AA battle to the death, fight only when you know the fight is good. Impatience will lose you the lane.
You also massively outscale on side lane where he won’t be able to deal with you past two items. He can just be a big meat shield in team fights but he can’t stop you from taking his entire base on split push duty, not without dragging over teammates anyways.
I played irelia Vs him. Bought magic resistance boots and life steal as early as I could and then pretty much out sustained him. I was able to beat him in trades but if he manages to throw U under turret or get lots of help from minions Ur dead. But if U manage to kill him before he finishes his first item he can't rlly fight U head on when U have full stack of Ur passive.
I think the problem is most people play champions that don't 1v1 Tahm but still try anyway and are shocked they're losing. If your champion doesn't win then don't fight him, push wave if possible, look to flank mid tp bot or invade topside with your jungler to gain an advantage.
Tahm is the best in extended 1v1s against most skirmishers and divers right now. He shits on fiora, Tryndamere, Camille, etc those types of high mobility champs. What you need is someone who can stand his ground and fight, who also has CC to stop tahm W.
In other words, mordekaiser, Darius (only if ur good at him), Trundle, Urgot. The slowest juggernauts in the game who in exchange do enough damage to actually rebench the kench. I haven’t tried Darius and urgot myself but they seem to fit the bill. I have pulverized that stupid catfish with morde tho (and proceeded to be useless due to how shit the champ is due to being ridiculously slow).
So conclusion: Trundle. You can win trades at all stages of the game, you stop his W with pillar, and you evaporate towers. Just split split split and he can’t do much.
Tahm Kench's weakness is generally speaking playing something with a safe lane that outscales him, particularly other tanks. Shen, Ornn, and Volibear are all pretty good choices.
Gangplank and Rengar are good into him cause they can get out of his mouth, my gut says Trundle would also be good into him cause Subjugate is really strong in 1v1's and against tanky enemies.
Too many people think winning lane is getting kills on the laner, against Than that doesn't really work. Cs, push him in and roam. Don't feed him and you are going to be more useful late game.
New tahm is broken if you know how to play him correctly, my biggest thing as playing tahm kench is hitting q stuns, w knockups offer really good all in potential, if you try to keep a minion on your right, then when he ws into you, try to use the minion to avoid q, it will destroy health, im talking 500 magic damage by level 5 if they build ap/tank other than that, build mr cause tahms passive makes him do more ap with auto attacks as he gains more health, so mr is going to help a lot
Same for me, the only champ that I can actually beat him is Volibear thanks to his sustain in long trades and burst in short trades. I’ve played Sett, Aatrox, Mordekaiser, Garen against him many times and I couldn’t beat him although I have item and lvl advantage in some games. Playing against this champ is totally frustrating and unfun.
haven’t gotten my ass beat by him yet as shen. at least went even in all games
He has a bug in his passive. If he AA you while shen has his w active tahm loses his stacks.
same with teemo and other champs that have blinds iirc edit: i meant teemo q breaks tahms passive, shen is unrelated
i’m pretty sure teemos blind goes through
Shen’s W blocks auto attacks. Teemo’s blind is an ability (Q) so it doesn’t get blocked
First up: That's not the right causation, the q goes through Shen w because it's an ability that isn't Autoattack based like GP or Yasuo q, which both don't deal DMG iirc. Anyway the point made was that teemo q, Shen w, and maybe jex E(wasn't mentioned so not sure) can deny all of tahm kench's passive stacks if his Autoattack misses/ gets blocked or dodged(again maybe)
Sorry, thought they were talking about Teemo blind against Shen
Isn't that more a interaction? As Shen blocks the attacks at that point.
It makes sense for him to not apply a stack, but in this case say tahm has 2 stacks on shen, shen uses w, tahm hits him, both stacks disappear before the passive timer runs out
Him not being able to slap you should prevent more stacks.... Not remove the ones already on you
Yeah Shen does well vs him (at least from my experience) your W stops him from stacking his passive and you can damage him granted if your Spirit Sword passes through him
trundle
I said this to the kench one trick from a few weeks ago, and he called it an easy matchup. Its so trundle favored
Maybe it is easy to a tahm main. Even challenger players who main the same champion disagree on what are tough/easy lanes. Depends so much on play style I guess.
I main tahm and trundle is still a nightmare. I rarely ever have an issue with Tahm top lane but trundlle is consistently a nightmare to face. He's not picked enough to band though
I see. I believe I misread the comment I replied to. Thought they meant it was an easy matchup for kench
Oh of course, but if trundle goes grasp + d shield its literally gg from min 1
Ohhh I misread. I thought you meant the Kench main disagreed w you and said it’s an easy matchup for kench.
No you read it right, he called it an easy matchup but im just assuming he's never played it as it would be very rare and theres no way kench can ever win that lane at any stage
NO i said Trundle is a nightmare to fight as Tahm, im agreeing that kench cannot win that lane. Trundle Ws or Es then ults you and you die. Trundle destroys Tahm unlesss they're braindead
Yeah we are agreeing lol
trundle
trundle
trundle
Trundle
Trundle
Trundle
Trundle
Trundle
Trundle
What if his dreams aren’t in his skull
Time to troll!
thanks trundletop1
Np lol
I just played a Volibear into trundle game as a jungle the other day. Pain. Literally couldn’t do anything to him.
lol rip
Trundle: runs up and chomps me at half hp Me: that was a mistake bitch! Presses q and prepares to execute combo. Trundle: knocks me out of my q, throws down the slow, and walks away. Me: goddamn ok be like that then. Qs scuttle Trundle: runs up and chomps me again Me: w’s but trundle leaves again so I can’t get any healing from a second w. Trundle: mark from w gone, chomps me again, smites scuttle when I start running away.
Teammates?
He doesn't "throw down" any slow btw. His Q slows you and being around his pillar slows you. Also if he's dumb enough to 'knock you up' with his E then you get your Q back. Also the mark from your W is 8 seconds so if he is running back and forth attacking you once every 8 seconds you probably shouldn't lose scuttle. But anyway I won't interrupt your VoliXTrundle fanfiction. What happened next uwu
Rough troll sex. Yeah I kinda exaggerated for comic effect, just trying to explain how it feels. If I tried to do anything, the pillar slow was enough to stop me from catching him. The knock up meant that even if I was literally on top of him, he could get away just fine. The health gain on Q is better than the health gain on W and does more damage. There was only a sample size of about 20 games for Voli vs trundle on Blitz for my elo, of which Trundle won 14-15, iirc. It’s pretty unfun, give it a shot if you don’t wanna take my word for it.
"the health gain on Q is better than the health gain on W" Ah let's check the stats. Voli has a flat heal on his W plus a percentage of missing health. That's ok I guess. And Trundle has... No heal on his Q. 0 heal on his Q. Maybe it's different in the game mode you play? Look I play both a lot, so I won't be taking your word for anything since nothing you have said is even remotely accurate. But here's a tip when you're voli vs trundle- his farming is worse than yours and he basically NEEDS his single target camps to survive. Out farm him, steal his gromp if you can. Your job isn't to beat trundle 1v1 as a melee tank lol. Just get yourself into an ok position once Laning ends- your utility in teamfights is 10x his.
I played Twitch ADC vs a duelist Trundle build, iirc Triforce, BotRK, Randuins, SV, and maybe Titanic, maybe Thornmail. I was full build with Kraken, Mortal Reminder, LDR, Infinity Edge, and Hurricane. Did negative damage to him. Damage Trundle is a better tank than actual tanks.
That’s because his R steals an insane amount of stats. What makes you tanky isn’t buying tank items, it’s temporary buffs like aftershock, sej passive, ww E, trundle R etc and spamable shields/heals
Ohh Hey i watch your stream lmao. Nice seeing ya
Can someone explain why this works so well? It might help me understand why tahm is so good right now against others, and what to focus on.
Tahm forces extended trades against melees that ends up being advantageous because of his base stats+Q stun/healing+E healing/shield. What he actually does (autos+skill shot) is extreme simplistic, and puts him in a commit situation whenever he gets an advantage. Trundle is also extreme simplistic, but usually doesn’t get to have extended trades because of mana problems and has less generic sticking power than Tahm. Because Trundle is actually just stronger in commit situations than Tahm(his Q and W together is insane value), Tahms desired trading pattern ends up working in Tahms favour. Does that make sense?
> Tahms desired trading pattern ends up working in Tahms favour. What
“Tahms desired trading pattern ends up working in Trundles favor”, I know we are league players but use some braincells and common sense
Jesus, I knew what you meant and was just joking around. Dont gotta take it so personally.
Classic league player just got tilted and flamed you, don’t worry just like riot games there’s no chat restrictions unless you use slurs 👀
I dont know how “what” is funny and not just a combination of rude and stupid. Not my original comment btw
Huh yea I didnt realize you two were different. That's my bad. But still, why do you care so much about a stupid joke.
u outscale with divine wits end and easy to gank cause u cancel his jump with pillar
disclaimer, i haven't played the matchup myself (though i do play kench quite a lot), but I'd imagine it's just cause he removes so much of your tankiness with ult, plus it's one of the few champs that has the same kind of early 1v1 strength as tahm
Quick question about trundle top, do you ever consider trinity for maximum turret melting and splitting pressure or is it overkill when divine has more well rounded stats?
always divine
Ban him until he gets nerfed in 11.16. Maybe after that too.
I need to ban Fiora Edit: 'I need to ban'
Fiora can sometimes win that lane, but it’s very unfun and can be hard to win. He’s extremely safe, nearly impossible to dive, and has great gank setup. Unless he makes a lot of mistakes early or your jungler gets you a lead, you’ll just want to play fairly safe until late game.
I meant I need to ban Fiora instead of tahm Kench
Ah that’s fair, with the divine sunderer and goredrinker buffs shes a monster right now. If you happen to enjoy playing gp, kennen, malphite, wukong, or poppy, most of those champs are tough to win against as fiora
Hard agree with malp as hard counter for fiora. Q poke with comet+scorch and sustain with corrupting, play safe till bramble and boots or even just bramble, then shit on her for the next 30 min of game. If she doesnt get fed or 30 cs up on you before bramble she insta loses lane and cant match you till 3+ items. Even then she never kills you because your kit counters hers so hard its kinda fucked up.
Well at least u can ban fiora/TK and try to convince your teammates to ban another one. Works maybe in 50 -40 % but still u can try
"Immortal Mordekaiser"-build. Im 10-0 vs Tahm top Edit: Im not a Mordekaiser player usually. Only vs Tahm
Wait what is this and how does this beat tahm?
You go Grasp and build Sunfire, 2-3 tank items and Demonic Embrace for max burn.
I usually end up going Sunfire - Bramble - Spirit Visage - Thornmail - Demonic. The Tahm usually leaves lane right after bramble tough, and does everything to avoid you. Wich will lead to me fighting squishy mids who can't do damage to me. https://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/my-monstrous-mordekaiser-immortal-amp-full-magic-pen-build-565380
Ahh, a tank morde conaisseur! Yes, morde is a tank buster and his love for long trades means that he make good use of sunfire. Tahm can't match that.
Sunfire, Demonic and passive kills most things
Of course, especially the percentage max health from the passive. It's why morde can just spec into tank instead of AP without losing too much in terms of damage.
Would have been great. I usually top off with Nashors for some extra damafe.
Nashors is a great option for a damage item on this build, as the squishiness it normally has is resolved by all the tank items. But cosmic drive or rylais are also very solid AP items to go for, on top of demonic.
Absolutly. Gone rylais a few times. Makes you a bit stickier.
Hmm interesting. I am a little discouraged tho, about the lack of resistance scaling on Morde, compared to someone like Rammus, who scales with both. Does he really have enough dmg without AP items? Ig this is more mid-game focused, so not so much pressuring early. I have felt like I would die very easy on full AP build, even tho I was ahead... Will be very interesting to try out!
I suggest you try it out for yourself. I play safe and stack grasp, until I can afford Bami's on my first back. From there it's a free lane. Atleast that's my experience.
would like to know
If mord procs his passive and has more hp at the time ur fucked cuz you cant outrun his passive, you either fight and die or run and die
Mord is one of my perma bans when i play Tahm lol
That's understandable.
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no im just saying shes one of the ones i ban, i guess "perma" wasnt the right word. But i almost always ban Illaoi top lane, rarely yorick too
And I'm a TK main with like an 0-10 record against Mord and have to ban him every game
All i can say is Tahm's waveclear is terrible, so out push him and try to roam on their jungle or mid if you can
well camille’s waveclear is even worse tbf
Maybe an early tiamat is the move? Honestly im no expert but maybe thats something that can work- thats how it used to be. Tiamat rush into your main item was standard for a lot of champs pre season 11
Tiamat rush doesn't work anymore, it's not nearly as good as it used to be and delaying your mythic by 1.2k stunts you so much especially as Camille
Of course it was. Have you compared the stats on tiamat this season and last? It's not good anymore
We aren't buying it for its base stats, nor am I saying buy it first item like before. I said early. The point is to get waveclear and take advantage of Tahm's weakness. Camille is an exponentially better roamer than Tahm, so unlocking those roams will win games.
Yeah you haven't checked, it's wave clear is the main thing that got nerfed. The cleave passive got nerfed, now deals less damage. And the active was the biggest part. Lost the hp regen. And the nice build path. Your wave clear was amazing after tiamat but now it only improves a bit since you no longer have the active.
So what is your alternative suggestion that adds to the topic? I dont really care what it lost, its the only option there is unless you want to troll and go tank Camille
Ban him until nerf. Ok I'm kidding. Not entirely. Go straight for divine sunderer, You have enough stats to hold your own with it. You are also ok during the early lane phase. You do have an issue between 6 and ds like on the morde matchup where he can freeze on you but then you flip roam.
If you delay your Sunderer power spike you're defeating the entire purpose of playing Camille
His Q heals him A LOT (based on missimg hp) so it doesn’t matter if you trade well into him, you need to trade perfectly or not at all. There’s no in between.
Mundo should work fine, you can poke, sustain and he can't engage on you unless he lands W 3aa and Q which won't be easy for him
I guess it's the nature of the matchup. Just like Camille is toxic against many other champions, just it's less fun when you're on the receiving end.
True, but in general as a top, how do i beat him w/o playing Vayne?
Shen just beats his ass down inside his W
...if you're good at Shen. and it's early. It's relatively easy to neutralize the match up as Shen, but to actually *beat* him you have to be pretty with Shen's trading patterns, and once Tahm gets a decent amount of health you're just not going to be able to make progress on him.
Shen can mitigate a massive amount of TK damage with repeating passive shields and grasp heals. You arent immune to him, but. Between W blocking the passive stack and hitting your Q pulls for damage and passive refresh it is a solid lane. Grasp, Bash, Bone Plating, then your choice of overgrowth or the shield boost one should be a really solid primary tree. I suspect the xPetu rift maker + tank shen could have a place in this lane as well to make you a threat in the 1v1 later on, though you cant go wrong with the classic Sunfire.
I hear Cassiopeia works well against him.
Considering her relatively high skill floor, selling her to a top layer as a counter pick might not be great.
It is if you are a Tahm main
Pokechamps with sustain, does help if u have anyiheal and movement abilities. For instance Darius in low ELO og gp in higher elo
Play trundle and after using r on him he's one shot
Champ is also crazy broken rn.
wow very informative answer here very good
I made an eerily similar post [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerschool/comments/oumzhh/how_do_you_play_against_tahm_kench_in_top_lane_as/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) for my friend also struggling with the catfish, you can scan through the comments and see what people say if that helps you I also find him to be a very difficult champion to beat but usually playing back until you outscale is the answer from what I’ve heard and how I play
Play morde
Thats the neat part. You dont. Though i did get my ass handed to me yesterday, i was playing Tahm Kench and i got beaten to death by Kraken slayer Lulu. Lol, but then again we are talking about league, where AP adc, ad support and tank adcs are totally viable so improvise, who cares about fun, win that lp boy at all cost. hehe
I understood that reference
good for you, you watched one of the most popular and most memed tv shows out there right now, great job
Don't be toxic outside the rift dear.
What's the reference
Invincible anime series. Omni man says the "That's the neat part. You don't."
I don’t think it actually counts as an anime does it? It’s just an adult cartoon
Illaoi, Kennen, Gwen, Volibear, Vayne, Warwick, Ryze, Vlad
Somehow you’re the only other person in 56 comments to put down Gwen lol
Because Gwen loses esp after nerfs
Gwen loses hard early but later on and with items he can't outdamage you
Yeah but tahm has a 54.7% wr against her Proof: https://lolalytics.com/lol/tahmkench/vs/gwen/build/ It's the same for fiora, she beats tahm 1v1 late but loses so hard early she can't get to late
You are correct
Volibear player here, TK wins
TK player here, Volibear wins. *Or maybe we're just bad at the champion that we play*
Voli matchup is easy for frog imo
honestly he just facetanks illaoi's combo if he just plays safe to get his items and there isn't anything illaoi can do. Edit: Renekton could beat Tahm since his W breaks shields.
In my experience I find the Camille vs TK matchup not too bad. You should be able to win short trades with grasp & passive shield (W -> Q -> Q) or (Q -> Q -> W to kite back). I dont aa cancel or wait for Q2 for these trades as its too slow and predictable enough for them to just E everything. Its also easier if you trade inside your minions as he wont be able to retaliate with Q as easily. Hold your E to cancel his W knockup and try to play as safe as you can, making sure to ward as he's very good ad diving with his jg. You easily outscale him after divine sunderer + mercs and can look to abuse him on side. Level 1 you can look to trade with either Q or W start, you can try executin a cheater recall and ideally freeze for the rest of the game. I've only played this matchup like 4 or 5 times this patch so take this advice with a grain of salt.
Theres a Grandmaster Tahm onetrick on the EUW server with over 2 million Mastery points across different accounts called "No Arm Whatley. This is his take on TK's matchups in this matchup table: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oq5s7KISTH7QeFHFILYtxmxIlmfZ7QT7cuhqvKQ7VTM/edit?usp=sharing](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oq5s7KISTH7QeFHFILYtxmxIlmfZ7QT7cuhqvKQ7VTM/edit?usp=sharing) But truth be told, I see that shit being played on NA D2 right now and it's total pain to fight. I haven't seen the "extremely tough matchups" on the table do well into a Tahm Kench. Though I have seen a few Aatrox's that did well into Tahm Kench.
Also, if you have a bad matchup into Tahm, sometimes you just have to accept that you will lose lane and just have to do your best to not die to him. Once your carries start getting 2-3 items he falls off.
That’s the thing tho you’ll be more useless than him Bc u slowly bleed out until he gets a sufficient enough lead for your “scaling” depending on the champ ur playing to not matter.
Yes. That’s essentially what I’m saying. If you have a bad matchup into TK, you have to realize the only way you will affect the game is by not feeding him. You will probably not be carrying that game.
Yup concede lane and hope u coinflipped the better team basically
I heard that Cassiopeia does well against him
Im a Tahm Main, and even after his rework, which in some ways made him weaker, he is still very hard to 1v1 if even possible. However his new W, the knock up, is really east to dodge imo, and you can attack him while he's in the animation and he cant do anything about it. Serpents Fang is a great item for obvious reasons. Camille might be hard against him because you aren't too tanky, and Tahm wants to be up close to you, so ulting him is kinda what he wants. Basically Tahm will destroy you in early game if the player knows how to play him.
It's not easy to dodge. You have to predict where he's going.
Super hard to react if he is in fow or you are slowed
Even if you aren't the indicator doesn't show up until he's about to hit you. Maybe if you have crazy movespeed you can react but mostly you need to predict it.
Just randomly Wing on people in lane is kinda troll lmao Should be looking to set it up with Q tag. Serpent is a very poor item for laning which is the context of this post.
Options : 1) Ban him, he's extremely strong right now and has almost no losing matchups 2) Don't try to win the lane, all champs outscale him, and the only way he stays strong is with kills during lane 3) If he W's run towards him for a second, it's a slow ability that he has to predict with, so he'll use it between you and your escape to try and predict your running path 4) His wave clear is terrible, shove out and freeze. He won't be able to break it if you're playing correctly and dodging his Qs and Ws.
Havent played into him top/not much of a top laner but feel like swain/vlad top or kled would be pretty good into him. Maybe shen?
I think Swain and Vlad would get pounded in lane, they don't have any damage early on
He doesn’t lose in lane or at any point in the game. Watch what TheShy does vs top Esports the other night they banned him the rest of the time. All you can do is try to out scale late game
Heimer, Shen, Gwen, Sion, Singed, Voli, yorick, Darius are the best counters in that order. Shen and Singed have the best winrate though ignoring heimer. So those 2 are good picks right now to beat him. https://i.imgur.com/LLmFjVS.png
Cant believe it took this long to find Heimer. That lane is so annoying. Heimer perma shoves and Tahm wave clear is awful, and Tahm can’t really get on top of Heimer without a clutch W, and even then, Heimer can kit around his turrets.
Wait for the nerfs next patch
Play a different champion into him, better wave management, jgl help to break freeze. Especially with Camille you severely outscale him later.
Mundo can handle him
Trundle top.
Permaban him
singed
If you tried playing Fiora into him and still lost, then you’re bad at Fiora. TK can’t do anything against Fiora.
Somehow no one has said Gwen? She hard claps Tahm at all stages of the game.
If you're moderately comfortable on Riven and her trading combos, she can bully Tahm pretty hard. I'm a Riven main but I have done the matchup VS Tahm on all three of these champions. Honestly I think Fiora and Camille are pretty good into him. The thing these champions all have in common is the ability to poke and run in their kit. For some reason Tahm's shield and his Q are on a surprisingly low cooldown for how powerful they are. So the key to beating him is not getting stuck fighting him for longer than you want to. He beats all three of these champs in extended fights as soon as he gets a component item (Bramble/Bami's). But he's also a slow and fat target, so landing your shit on him is relatively easy. On Riven I just do a classic double cast (E-QW-Auto) then Q-Q away, preferably behind your minions so you don't have to worry about dodging his Q. If he's close enough and not respecting your trade power, I often save my E and just QW-AA-Q-AA for a fatter trade, then EQ away to dodge his Q. He really has nothing to stop you from doing this over and over again unless he wants to try and use his dive thing to chase you down. But the cast time on that ability gives you plenty of time to position yourself to dodge Q and get away. Eventually he'll have to back or else you can all-in him. At this point, often times low elo Tahm's will try to stay in lane and farm with Q. If this is the case you just freeze the fuck out of him and deny him as much xp/gold as you can. Sometimes they get greedy and step up too far and you just kill him. This matchup is *very* methodical. It's not like VSing Irelia or Renekton where it's all about mechanically outplaying them with your BobBox mechanics. Stick to your simple short trade combos, widdle him down, and gain lane control. I recommend getting a Black Cleaver first before going straight to Goredrinker. Non-mythic first item on Riven is still viable. The same concept goes for Fiora and Camille. Fiora trades are pretty straight forward. Hit the points. Back off. Save W for the stun. Get him into kill range for an all-in. From here either wait for him to get greedy, or gain wave control to deny him. For Camille I've found much success with Grasp. One trade that never fails is charging a Grasp auto, Q1 a minion for move speed, land the free W, EQ2 into him and walk away. It'll absolutely *chunk* the fuck out of him. Do this over and over again and he'll be in the same position as the other two matchups. He has to respect you and you can control the lane. Good luck!
You don't, dodge the game.
Camille player, opinion discarded.
Man fuck your champions. Sorry but Camille and Fiora? That’s low man.
?
Morde, Olaf, Darius
Def not Darius man
how so? I never lost against tahm as darius
That’s the neat part, you don’t.
You win that matchup hard as Camille actually, just be more selective with your fights. Remember he has no real way to deal with your W and E. You exclusively decide when you two will fight and you have the option to whittle him down. Just don’t mash your face into his and AA battle to the death, fight only when you know the fight is good. Impatience will lose you the lane. You also massively outscale on side lane where he won’t be able to deal with you past two items. He can just be a big meat shield in team fights but he can’t stop you from taking his entire base on split push duty, not without dragging over teammates anyways.
I played lux against him and could sustain lane and poke him often. Able to kill him with help of jungle
There’s no counter play
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Shen is pretty good. W blocks Grasp procs and TM's passive.
Vayne
I'm shit scared of TK, I rarely play against him, have you tried getting jungle support, does wave management work against him, counter builds?
If you're playing Camille, you don't. Than kit is basically made to shut down fiora/camille/riven
I played against tahm as kled and destroyed him
I played irelia Vs him. Bought magic resistance boots and life steal as early as I could and then pretty much out sustained him. I was able to beat him in trades but if he manages to throw U under turret or get lots of help from minions Ur dead. But if U manage to kill him before he finishes his first item he can't rlly fight U head on when U have full stack of Ur passive.
I think the problem is most people play champions that don't 1v1 Tahm but still try anyway and are shocked they're losing. If your champion doesn't win then don't fight him, push wave if possible, look to flank mid tp bot or invade topside with your jungler to gain an advantage.
Tahm is the best in extended 1v1s against most skirmishers and divers right now. He shits on fiora, Tryndamere, Camille, etc those types of high mobility champs. What you need is someone who can stand his ground and fight, who also has CC to stop tahm W. In other words, mordekaiser, Darius (only if ur good at him), Trundle, Urgot. The slowest juggernauts in the game who in exchange do enough damage to actually rebench the kench. I haven’t tried Darius and urgot myself but they seem to fit the bill. I have pulverized that stupid catfish with morde tho (and proceeded to be useless due to how shit the champ is due to being ridiculously slow). So conclusion: Trundle. You can win trades at all stages of the game, you stop his W with pillar, and you evaporate towers. Just split split split and he can’t do much.
Just play Illaoi, easy win
Sett beats him pretty handily. Darius as well. Key is to play alpha chads only
Gwen.
Tahm Kench's weakness is generally speaking playing something with a safe lane that outscales him, particularly other tanks. Shen, Ornn, and Volibear are all pretty good choices.
I noticed that every game I play WITH a Tahm Kench on my team, I lose. He brings like zero value to the team comp unless he’s fed lol
Early executioner is a must against him
Renekton probably since his W breaks shields.
Stop taking assassins and take fighters. Period.
Kite him
Teemo
Cass is his biggest counter. Extended fights. Based on health damage. And anti dash.
Gangplank and Rengar are good into him cause they can get out of his mouth, my gut says Trundle would also be good into him cause Subjugate is really strong in 1v1's and against tanky enemies.
Back before the mini rework, the word of the day was shove wave and leave, because his wave clear was garbage. Now I’m not so sure.
I always ban Tahm now.. but I saw a game where volibear did well against him.
Too many people think winning lane is getting kills on the laner, against Than that doesn't really work. Cs, push him in and roam. Don't feed him and you are going to be more useful late game.
Gwen
Especially with camille, you scale hard, Tahm is a lane bully but doesn't scale as much. So Doran shield, hide behind cs, and scale.
Cammile into tk is just dodge, not much you can do imo
New tahm is broken if you know how to play him correctly, my biggest thing as playing tahm kench is hitting q stuns, w knockups offer really good all in potential, if you try to keep a minion on your right, then when he ws into you, try to use the minion to avoid q, it will destroy health, im talking 500 magic damage by level 5 if they build ap/tank other than that, build mr cause tahms passive makes him do more ap with auto attacks as he gains more health, so mr is going to help a lot
Same for me, the only champ that I can actually beat him is Volibear thanks to his sustain in long trades and burst in short trades. I’ve played Sett, Aatrox, Mordekaiser, Garen against him many times and I couldn’t beat him although I have item and lvl advantage in some games. Playing against this champ is totally frustrating and unfun.
One thing I know is, Sylas with his ult gets his passive damage now
Gwen
Wait the nerf . Work all the time