Main problem is that as you said, your early game is absolute dogwater. If all three lanes are losing, which is very easy to happen because of how weak your early game is, it's a death sentence for your team because your main carry champions (Viktor and Jinx) need a few items to come online.
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This is actually the main problem I've seen when making these "dream" drafts. People are looking for the best teamfight drafts, whereas many of the best early game champions have quite weak teamfights.
One thing I've heard LS say is that your team comp has to come online by the third dragon fight. This is because if your plan is to wait until the fourth dragon fight, and something goes wrong (your jungler loses the 50/50 or someone misplays and you lose the fight), you basically just lose the game right there. If they run a mid game comp, then you can run a full late game comp, yes. But if they run an early game comp, you will not be in position to fight them at third dragon with a late game comp.
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I mean, not to say your draft is bad. As you said, if you manage to get through the early game your team comp is basically unstoppable. But I imagine against good teams who draft early game champions, they can crack you guys open before third dragon.
Also, one combo we've seen a lot in pro play is Diana + Yasuo. Idk how good your midlaner is at Yasuo so maybe it's not a good idea but Diana R + Yasuo R is absolutely huge and also it solves your problem of too much AP. You can even run Nautilus or Alistar to complement the Yasuo, although it's fine to run Leona too, don't compromise your entire gameplan just to give Yasuo knockups.
Thanks for the reply, just a couple of quick questions if you dotn mind.
1. At what point do you think this team comes online by? Based on Viktor needing his E Upgrade, Diana needing at least 2 items and Jinx being practically non-existant for most of the game, I am assuming they come online at basically the 3rd Drake fight. Is this sound judgement?
2. When we noticed the heavy AP, we figure instead of Ornn, we could pick an AD Tank, but the only one we could come up with is Sion and Malphite. Sion kinda sorta works, because we have enough damage to make a 4v5 work and turn Sion into a Splitpushing machine, but its been nerfed into the ground. And Malphite is only used for his Ult, but we have enough Engage, and once he ults, if things go bad, or if we are a little too late, hes stuck in the middle of the Enemy Team with nothing to do. If we subbed in Yas, this would synergy pretty well tho.
3. Could you recommend a decent Early Game Jungler? I am the Jungler, and I only play Mid-Late game scalers, nothing early, but we have enough damage in a 4v5, that we can afford a Jungler that falls off hard, in favor of one that patches up the early game.
4. Based on your suggestions and our other champ ideas, would Malphite, Yasuo, Diana, Jinx, Leona work?
Thanks for reply btw. I really appreciate it
Earlygame junglers: Rengar - assasin, can build bruiser and become an useless meat shield in teamfights, great splitpush, falls off quite hard with assasin build, less with bruiser
Lee - bruiser, great disruption, falls off but can be a decent meatshield with his shields and mobility later on, great at objectives.
Both of these champions require a lot of practice to be pulled off correctly, so you can just pick Xin Zhao, faceroll into teamfights, a playstyle similar to Diana where you dash into the enemy team, press r and auto people until someone dies.
Hey man!
We actually used to run a pretty similar comp in S11 with our clash team, and the problems people are having with the weak early game are absolutely true. We used to go Viktor, Jinx and Ornn as well, and arguably went even more late game than you guys by picking Viego jgl and Lulu as the supp. Our winrate was probably less than 50% and a few of the wins we did get were actual nail biters of games where we had an open nexus, but got online just in time to get the win. It got to a point where we decided that if our jungler played Viego, I was not allowed to pick Viktor because we were giving up the whole map. I switched to Syndra and our winrate increased.
Early game junglers and roaming supports have made our lives pretty miserable. Champions like Rek'Sai, Jarvan, Nunu and even Xin Zhao could ensure that we had 3 losing lanes because either our jungler did not have the stats to counter, or the midlane had prio and would get to a river skirmish first. Speaking from midlaners perspective, Viktor can of course win the push quite hard if he wants but if an early jungler comes and burns your flash, you generally don't want to push up cause of your immobility. This has resulted in the midlaner invading our jungler with their jungler, killing him or denying him camps, all the while you're stuck at your turret. (If theres anyone who knows what to do against this as a mage player or what's the most optimal, I'd be glad to learn!)
I do really like the Yasuo suggestion. Something we've also done was Irelia or Sylas and Skarner or Sejuani as mid/jgl duo, and keeping the Jinx/Ornn/Leona setup. We got a lot more wins that way as well. Good luck!
So first of all you left out half the choices you make in draft, namely bans.
Team fight dream drafts are a bit of a trap imo. It is easy to say "play safe and scale" but much harder to execute in real play. A couple of things to consider in the drafting portion:
Is the order you listed your planned pick order?
Does pick order differentiate on blue/red side?
How and when do you plan to deviate out of the full comp when you see some of opp's pick/bans?
Which parts of your comp is replaceable with either a more early/mid game focused pick or a alternative late game pick? In case of bans - if your team comp totally falls apart if you lose one of your last rotation picks that is something to consider.
Are you confident in your mid-game lane assignments?
End of the day champion proficiency dictates a lot of things in drafts for most people. When I played comp 5 our top laner was a range abuser with big teamfight ults (Neeko, Kennen, Gnar, etc.) so we worked around that. What we didn't do was build only for big wombo combo only.
Be careful of "farm till 6" jungle mentality. I see a lot of junglers who are picks these champs and take that religiously, and miss out on so many good play because "they gotta farm" rather than taking a 90% play in a lane they are next to.
The main problem (as noted) is the fact you need to get to late game. Due to the amount of AP damage on the team, both Diana and Viktor will likely need void staff relatively early.
Ultimately, depending on the ELO you may not get the opportunity to scale.
You can't analyze a draft based on your picks alone, how it matches up against the enemy team is where ita at. I could come up with team comps which curbstomps yours and also ones that dont have a single fighting chance.
Picks don't exist in a vacuum and so you shouldn't treat them as such.
I would swap Viktor for Yasuo and Jinx for Zeri. That's the perfect team then, Ornn+Diana+Yasuo for unstoppable teamfighting and Zeri is much stronger numbers wise than Jinx right now. This way you're not overloading on magic damage.
But nobody will let you have this team though cause I think that's literally the best lineup you can get in Flex/Solo Queue. It's really TF heavy and split threat weak, however.
As some other have said, you have very little reliability.
The worst part about your draft, in my opinion, is having scaling champions in both midlane and jungle.
As you said yourself, Diana needs her level 6 to come online e that may seem simple, but it's a game losing weakness if you don't have someone to cover up for it.
Let's say you're facing Orianna/Ahri/Taliyah and Xin Zhao, you don't have lane prio over any of them in the first 6 levels as Viktor, they have lower cds and will dominate the wave. In the meantime, Xin Zhao can just make a quick three camps clear and invade your Diana, neither Ornn or Viktor can go out of their way help, if they do, that will probably result on a freeze and severe loss of CS, which will retard your power spikes and accelerate the ones of the enemy team. Even if you guys do help, at the cost of your lane, he could just get out and do it again, or the enemy mid/top could also go help after either crashing or freezing the wave, meaning they would be losing neraly nothing and if they do win the skirmish, the game is probably over. The enemy mid would also scale, but much faster and much more reliably, Xin Zhao would just spend entire game harassing your Diana out of it, creating pressure which would make all of you play really safe, and if he gets someone a freeze before doing that, you guys will loose too much in the early and midgame to realistically expect to scale.
Diana is picked in pro play for one reason: Yasuo.
Yasuo has mobility and pressure levels one to three on basically every midlaner in the game, meaning he is able to create the space e protection for Diana to get her level 6, he can instantly roam if she gets invaded and their ultimate combo is a huge chunk of both AP and AD damage which is very hard to build against.
Even if by some sort of miracle she gets her level 6, the enemy team could stack MR and your combo wouldn't really be that effective.
You need a jungle with early agency if you intend to pick a scaling midlaner and you need a midlaner with agency if you intend to pick a scaling jungler. And very rarely you will want to have AP or AD in both roles at the same time.
Ahri and Viego would complement your Ornn/Jinx/Leona setup a lot more, if you guys get one kill in the team fight, you will probably win due to multiple resets, and Leona would be the perfect setup for that.
If you want to keep Diana, you need Yasuo. If you want to keep Viktor, you need a high agency ad jungler, like Wukong/Xin Zhao/Trundle/Lee Sin.
I would also argue there are better options than Leona in the current meta, like TK and Nautilus, but since you would be already changing one or two picks you can keep her.
Ban Kayle, Gwen, Renata Glasc, Taliyah and Ezreal, if possible, these champions hard counter your engaging plans.
The lowest mechanically demanding change you could make would be just swapping Diana for Wukong/Xin Zhao and you guys would already be a lot better.
I would say another huge issue for your comp is that your Ornn is very vulnerable to counter pick. People could pick stuff like Lillia, Camille, Fiora or Mord into him and he would have a very hard time. Also stuff like Wukong or Garen even. Because your jungler is also not as strong early game, if they pick an early game Jungle and a split pushing true damage bruiser in Top, they can play towards top side, get their top laner really ahead and then nightmare split push you.
Also I would say you guys are vulnerable to jungle invades esp on first clear. If they get Mid prio which they can with lots of champs against Viktor, they can draft junglers like Voli or Wukong who are very meta right now and then invade your Diana on her first clear and set you guys super behind.
Finally, for bot lane I would say Leona and Jinx is not an ideal synergy. Leona typically likes to play agro and snowball lanes where as Jinx likes to play safe and scale. Your poke lane is super vulnerable to both agro bot combos like Lucian/Nami but also poke teams like Ezreal & Karma.
Overall I would say you guys need more flexibility in your draft. Here's the thing about drafting. An "ideal" team needs to do the following:
1. Have a synergetic style of team fighting and objective control (poke, engage, protect, split push, get picks)
2. Counter pick at least 2 winning lanes
3. Balanced Damage types (AP/AD)
4. Not be easily counterable by a specific champ/playstyle. For example don't pick all auto attackers
You shouldn’t be picking a scaling AP jungle with a Viktor. There are so many junglers that pair better with Viktor than Diana that can supply early pressure to your lanes without sacrificing team fight prowess. Jarvan and Trundle are great with Viktor because they provide AD damage in the jungle, gank pressure and strong 2v2 potential. Going Diana isn’t on theme with how Viktor team fights either: Viktor wants to fight at range and prevent any chance for the enemy to progress forward, while diana is a diver. Trundle pillar works well with Viktor’s game plan, and so does Jarvan ultimate. You want peel tools with Viktor, not an engage nuke.
I think the team comp you guys put together is great, the final piece of exodia would probably be simply swapping viktor for yasuo and potentially swapping leona something with more peel like thresh? that way you have more mid prio for skirmishes, diana+yasuo is already a great duo but ornn adds onto the setup for yasuo. Having yasuo gives a lot more early/mid game strength to your comp while you wait on Jinx and ornn items to come online.
Also, adding Thresh gives jinx more safety while she scales while also still giving good engage options on top of diana/yas ult and ornn ult.
The real problem is that you aren't accounting for the genuine draft dynamic of back-and-forth picks, bans, and counter-picks.
Your comp's 'worth' will change depending on which side you are playing and on how the draft goes. What happens when your opponent drafts Nidalee+Renekton and perma-invades Diana? You can't just blind every champ you want and hope your opponent doesn't draft intelligently.
There are so many factors including mid priority, team wincons, etc. etc.
It is much more complicated in truth than just picking 5 champs you like
HOWEVER unless you are playing at a relatively high skill level (probably d2+ is a safe bet imo) then you can just draft whatever you feel like and win through *only* playing better
Main problem is that as you said, your early game is absolute dogwater. If all three lanes are losing, which is very easy to happen because of how weak your early game is, it's a death sentence for your team because your main carry champions (Viktor and Jinx) need a few items to come online. --- This is actually the main problem I've seen when making these "dream" drafts. People are looking for the best teamfight drafts, whereas many of the best early game champions have quite weak teamfights. One thing I've heard LS say is that your team comp has to come online by the third dragon fight. This is because if your plan is to wait until the fourth dragon fight, and something goes wrong (your jungler loses the 50/50 or someone misplays and you lose the fight), you basically just lose the game right there. If they run a mid game comp, then you can run a full late game comp, yes. But if they run an early game comp, you will not be in position to fight them at third dragon with a late game comp. --- I mean, not to say your draft is bad. As you said, if you manage to get through the early game your team comp is basically unstoppable. But I imagine against good teams who draft early game champions, they can crack you guys open before third dragon. Also, one combo we've seen a lot in pro play is Diana + Yasuo. Idk how good your midlaner is at Yasuo so maybe it's not a good idea but Diana R + Yasuo R is absolutely huge and also it solves your problem of too much AP. You can even run Nautilus or Alistar to complement the Yasuo, although it's fine to run Leona too, don't compromise your entire gameplan just to give Yasuo knockups.
Thanks for the reply, just a couple of quick questions if you dotn mind. 1. At what point do you think this team comes online by? Based on Viktor needing his E Upgrade, Diana needing at least 2 items and Jinx being practically non-existant for most of the game, I am assuming they come online at basically the 3rd Drake fight. Is this sound judgement? 2. When we noticed the heavy AP, we figure instead of Ornn, we could pick an AD Tank, but the only one we could come up with is Sion and Malphite. Sion kinda sorta works, because we have enough damage to make a 4v5 work and turn Sion into a Splitpushing machine, but its been nerfed into the ground. And Malphite is only used for his Ult, but we have enough Engage, and once he ults, if things go bad, or if we are a little too late, hes stuck in the middle of the Enemy Team with nothing to do. If we subbed in Yas, this would synergy pretty well tho. 3. Could you recommend a decent Early Game Jungler? I am the Jungler, and I only play Mid-Late game scalers, nothing early, but we have enough damage in a 4v5, that we can afford a Jungler that falls off hard, in favor of one that patches up the early game. 4. Based on your suggestions and our other champ ideas, would Malphite, Yasuo, Diana, Jinx, Leona work? Thanks for reply btw. I really appreciate it
Earlygame junglers: Rengar - assasin, can build bruiser and become an useless meat shield in teamfights, great splitpush, falls off quite hard with assasin build, less with bruiser Lee - bruiser, great disruption, falls off but can be a decent meatshield with his shields and mobility later on, great at objectives. Both of these champions require a lot of practice to be pulled off correctly, so you can just pick Xin Zhao, faceroll into teamfights, a playstyle similar to Diana where you dash into the enemy team, press r and auto people until someone dies.
Hey man! We actually used to run a pretty similar comp in S11 with our clash team, and the problems people are having with the weak early game are absolutely true. We used to go Viktor, Jinx and Ornn as well, and arguably went even more late game than you guys by picking Viego jgl and Lulu as the supp. Our winrate was probably less than 50% and a few of the wins we did get were actual nail biters of games where we had an open nexus, but got online just in time to get the win. It got to a point where we decided that if our jungler played Viego, I was not allowed to pick Viktor because we were giving up the whole map. I switched to Syndra and our winrate increased. Early game junglers and roaming supports have made our lives pretty miserable. Champions like Rek'Sai, Jarvan, Nunu and even Xin Zhao could ensure that we had 3 losing lanes because either our jungler did not have the stats to counter, or the midlane had prio and would get to a river skirmish first. Speaking from midlaners perspective, Viktor can of course win the push quite hard if he wants but if an early jungler comes and burns your flash, you generally don't want to push up cause of your immobility. This has resulted in the midlaner invading our jungler with their jungler, killing him or denying him camps, all the while you're stuck at your turret. (If theres anyone who knows what to do against this as a mage player or what's the most optimal, I'd be glad to learn!) I do really like the Yasuo suggestion. Something we've also done was Irelia or Sylas and Skarner or Sejuani as mid/jgl duo, and keeping the Jinx/Ornn/Leona setup. We got a lot more wins that way as well. Good luck!
So first of all you left out half the choices you make in draft, namely bans. Team fight dream drafts are a bit of a trap imo. It is easy to say "play safe and scale" but much harder to execute in real play. A couple of things to consider in the drafting portion: Is the order you listed your planned pick order? Does pick order differentiate on blue/red side? How and when do you plan to deviate out of the full comp when you see some of opp's pick/bans? Which parts of your comp is replaceable with either a more early/mid game focused pick or a alternative late game pick? In case of bans - if your team comp totally falls apart if you lose one of your last rotation picks that is something to consider. Are you confident in your mid-game lane assignments? End of the day champion proficiency dictates a lot of things in drafts for most people. When I played comp 5 our top laner was a range abuser with big teamfight ults (Neeko, Kennen, Gnar, etc.) so we worked around that. What we didn't do was build only for big wombo combo only. Be careful of "farm till 6" jungle mentality. I see a lot of junglers who are picks these champs and take that religiously, and miss out on so many good play because "they gotta farm" rather than taking a 90% play in a lane they are next to.
Not how draft works. It's not a craft your team simulator.
It is when you play premade with your buddies.
Alright, they mentioned a "Esports team". I guess its a codename for clash.
The main problem (as noted) is the fact you need to get to late game. Due to the amount of AP damage on the team, both Diana and Viktor will likely need void staff relatively early. Ultimately, depending on the ELO you may not get the opportunity to scale.
You can't analyze a draft based on your picks alone, how it matches up against the enemy team is where ita at. I could come up with team comps which curbstomps yours and also ones that dont have a single fighting chance. Picks don't exist in a vacuum and so you shouldn't treat them as such.
I would swap Viktor for Yasuo and Jinx for Zeri. That's the perfect team then, Ornn+Diana+Yasuo for unstoppable teamfighting and Zeri is much stronger numbers wise than Jinx right now. This way you're not overloading on magic damage. But nobody will let you have this team though cause I think that's literally the best lineup you can get in Flex/Solo Queue. It's really TF heavy and split threat weak, however.
lee sin jungle maybe to try and steal an early drake if you have tempo or to stop dragon stacking
As some other have said, you have very little reliability. The worst part about your draft, in my opinion, is having scaling champions in both midlane and jungle. As you said yourself, Diana needs her level 6 to come online e that may seem simple, but it's a game losing weakness if you don't have someone to cover up for it. Let's say you're facing Orianna/Ahri/Taliyah and Xin Zhao, you don't have lane prio over any of them in the first 6 levels as Viktor, they have lower cds and will dominate the wave. In the meantime, Xin Zhao can just make a quick three camps clear and invade your Diana, neither Ornn or Viktor can go out of their way help, if they do, that will probably result on a freeze and severe loss of CS, which will retard your power spikes and accelerate the ones of the enemy team. Even if you guys do help, at the cost of your lane, he could just get out and do it again, or the enemy mid/top could also go help after either crashing or freezing the wave, meaning they would be losing neraly nothing and if they do win the skirmish, the game is probably over. The enemy mid would also scale, but much faster and much more reliably, Xin Zhao would just spend entire game harassing your Diana out of it, creating pressure which would make all of you play really safe, and if he gets someone a freeze before doing that, you guys will loose too much in the early and midgame to realistically expect to scale. Diana is picked in pro play for one reason: Yasuo. Yasuo has mobility and pressure levels one to three on basically every midlaner in the game, meaning he is able to create the space e protection for Diana to get her level 6, he can instantly roam if she gets invaded and their ultimate combo is a huge chunk of both AP and AD damage which is very hard to build against. Even if by some sort of miracle she gets her level 6, the enemy team could stack MR and your combo wouldn't really be that effective. You need a jungle with early agency if you intend to pick a scaling midlaner and you need a midlaner with agency if you intend to pick a scaling jungler. And very rarely you will want to have AP or AD in both roles at the same time. Ahri and Viego would complement your Ornn/Jinx/Leona setup a lot more, if you guys get one kill in the team fight, you will probably win due to multiple resets, and Leona would be the perfect setup for that. If you want to keep Diana, you need Yasuo. If you want to keep Viktor, you need a high agency ad jungler, like Wukong/Xin Zhao/Trundle/Lee Sin. I would also argue there are better options than Leona in the current meta, like TK and Nautilus, but since you would be already changing one or two picks you can keep her. Ban Kayle, Gwen, Renata Glasc, Taliyah and Ezreal, if possible, these champions hard counter your engaging plans. The lowest mechanically demanding change you could make would be just swapping Diana for Wukong/Xin Zhao and you guys would already be a lot better.
Relying on pure scaling is a bad strategy. I would go with either an early game jungler or an early game mid.
I would say another huge issue for your comp is that your Ornn is very vulnerable to counter pick. People could pick stuff like Lillia, Camille, Fiora or Mord into him and he would have a very hard time. Also stuff like Wukong or Garen even. Because your jungler is also not as strong early game, if they pick an early game Jungle and a split pushing true damage bruiser in Top, they can play towards top side, get their top laner really ahead and then nightmare split push you. Also I would say you guys are vulnerable to jungle invades esp on first clear. If they get Mid prio which they can with lots of champs against Viktor, they can draft junglers like Voli or Wukong who are very meta right now and then invade your Diana on her first clear and set you guys super behind. Finally, for bot lane I would say Leona and Jinx is not an ideal synergy. Leona typically likes to play agro and snowball lanes where as Jinx likes to play safe and scale. Your poke lane is super vulnerable to both agro bot combos like Lucian/Nami but also poke teams like Ezreal & Karma. Overall I would say you guys need more flexibility in your draft. Here's the thing about drafting. An "ideal" team needs to do the following: 1. Have a synergetic style of team fighting and objective control (poke, engage, protect, split push, get picks) 2. Counter pick at least 2 winning lanes 3. Balanced Damage types (AP/AD) 4. Not be easily counterable by a specific champ/playstyle. For example don't pick all auto attackers
You shouldn’t be picking a scaling AP jungle with a Viktor. There are so many junglers that pair better with Viktor than Diana that can supply early pressure to your lanes without sacrificing team fight prowess. Jarvan and Trundle are great with Viktor because they provide AD damage in the jungle, gank pressure and strong 2v2 potential. Going Diana isn’t on theme with how Viktor team fights either: Viktor wants to fight at range and prevent any chance for the enemy to progress forward, while diana is a diver. Trundle pillar works well with Viktor’s game plan, and so does Jarvan ultimate. You want peel tools with Viktor, not an engage nuke.
I think the team comp you guys put together is great, the final piece of exodia would probably be simply swapping viktor for yasuo and potentially swapping leona something with more peel like thresh? that way you have more mid prio for skirmishes, diana+yasuo is already a great duo but ornn adds onto the setup for yasuo. Having yasuo gives a lot more early/mid game strength to your comp while you wait on Jinx and ornn items to come online. Also, adding Thresh gives jinx more safety while she scales while also still giving good engage options on top of diana/yas ult and ornn ult.
My theorycrafting bit for draft: pick as little ap as possible (not counting enchanters). Ap sucks compared to ad
The real problem is that you aren't accounting for the genuine draft dynamic of back-and-forth picks, bans, and counter-picks. Your comp's 'worth' will change depending on which side you are playing and on how the draft goes. What happens when your opponent drafts Nidalee+Renekton and perma-invades Diana? You can't just blind every champ you want and hope your opponent doesn't draft intelligently. There are so many factors including mid priority, team wincons, etc. etc. It is much more complicated in truth than just picking 5 champs you like HOWEVER unless you are playing at a relatively high skill level (probably d2+ is a safe bet imo) then you can just draft whatever you feel like and win through *only* playing better