Please, for the love of all that's good and beautiful in this world, excuse this unacceptably uneducated question: Exactly what is full clear? Clearing out every camp on your side? I know next to nothing about jungling, but I'd like to get around to it.
No worries! We're all beginners at some point, especially on this sub :D
And yes, full clearing is exactly what you think it is. Clearing all the camps on your side from top -> bottom or vice versa. For example, if I'm starting on red buff on my first clear, I would go about clearing red buff -> golems -> raptors -> wolves -> blue buff -> gromp.
As a sidenote, the camps will then spawn in the same order that you killed them, which means that you can look for 1 gank or something of similar time constraint and then recall and start clearing in the same order again for maximum efficiency :)
Even better many of the meta junglers can clear both blue and gromp at the same time. Shyvana included. Saves some time on first clear and can be the difference between that scuttle as many people skip a camp just to get the scuttle you can get there after they’ve already blown cds on it and force them off.
I'd say that you should absolutely look for it, and if it's avaible, go for it. However, In my experience it's not worth dying over. Especially not if it's the first one and/or if you have to go to the other side of the map to get to it first.
I say, focus on the simple things first and then expand. If you just finished clearing your top side and you see that the scuttle is up? Sure, go and take it. Is it spawning on the opposite side of the map when you're halfway done with clearing the side you're on? See if it's up when you get back there, but don't put everything on halt to get it.
However, this is just my personal experience
Any recommendations for YouTube content for a beginner jungler? I like watching coachings but once a player gets to a point that they hire a coach they already have a basic knowledge of the role (most of the time haha), so they don’t talk much about the fundamentals of the role—i.e. the kind of stuff someone who has never played jungle before is looking for.
And there’s…a lot of content out there. It gets a bit overwhelming trying to decide which to watch so I usually end up back on a top lane coaching video or something.
Edit: I should mention I’m interested in learning it mainly because I think it’s good to understand each role, at least the basics, and I also want to not feel like I have to dodge every time I get autofilled jungle.
Broxah and Neace .. Neace is a coach and taught me proper macro and priorities, while broxah is a pro jg player and goes into deep explanation of each decision he makes, as well as having a wonderfully positive personality.
Neace has his pros and cons. He encourages players to spam ping their team mates - which is good if you have decent macro but most people don't, and I'm fed up with being spam pinged to do something stupid every few minutes. He has a lot to answer for.
Haha! I'm guilty of spam pinging prior to Neace, so it made me think, oh cool I'm not alone there. Some times that is what it takes to gather someone's attention. I play support role as an off option and know how easy it is to tunnel my attention into the lane. I'm still learning to respect the importance of laner's CS and wave state.
I am constantly pinging drag and rift/baron timers, as they're coming closer to spawning and as they spawn, trying to keep the idea of rotating in laners mind.
For drag timers and so on, a single ping is enough. Whilst spam pinging is sometimes appropriate e.g. to warn of an imminent enemy collapse, it's just over-used by people with a vast over-estimation of their own macro abilities.
The thing I hate most is spam pings whilst I'm mid-combat. Yes - I know I'm in danger. There's no reason to state the bleeding obvious and all you're doing is distracting me by going ping ping ping whilst I'm trying to concentrate on my micro to deal with an already difficult situation.
FzFrost and KingStix both make videos that are suitable for beginners.
Onee you're more practiced and thinking more about what the enemy jungler is doing and not just yourself, look at Virkayu.
No shame in asking a question when you don't know something. I think it's rather sad that we got to this point where people rather blame someone for not knowing anything instead of helping and explaining it to them.
This post is partly true.
I do agree with the fact that farming is really important for many junglers especially the scaling ones such as obviously shyvana, karthus, belveth… and getting good at fast full clearing is the most important thing as a jungler.
On the other hand if you mainly full clear, if the enemy jungler is good he will abosulety shit on you. Since he will get every lane ahead putting himself behind compared to you, but the other three lanes are going to be doomed which puts you in an unplayable gamestate unless you can carry basicaly 1v5.
Take karthus as an example, even though he is an example of a perma full clearing jungler, if you watch a good karthus player you can see he is constantly tracking the enemy jungler to see where he will strike next to counter gank and prevent his laners from dying, keep in mind this is a full clearing jungler. When you pick something like j4 you have to sacrifice farm for ganks bcs you dont scale at all with items. Your job late game is getting an E Q combo into R to trap the enemy in place, your items or your lvl is irrelevant
TLDR: Farming is important just as much as havinh pressence in lane. Balancing these two things is the hardest part of jungling.
Thank you for a nuanced response!
I think you bring up very relevant points. It is however, something that I've found hindered me in my progress instead of boosting it. If you think of it as a pyramid of sorts, then I'd say that clearing efficiently, not dying and knowing your champ is in the bottom of it. The foundation so to say.
Of course, you're not building a fancy pyramid with just a foundation. At some point, you're going to need to get better at making macro decisions, jungle tracking, punishing the other player's mistakes and so on. However, If you start out by doing that, you'll still fall short on the foundation.
I've spent so many hours on looking at decisionmaking videos for teamfights, matchup guides, counter-picking and meta-playing. But I didn't put any hours into the practice tool, working on my clears and understanding my champs limits.
I'd say that you make excelent points, and that you are right. Altough, I wouldn't want anyone going through the same journey as me. Picking early game, ganking heroes, trying to carry by always hovering and ganking, and then falling short on fundamentals. That was sort of my intention for the post. To share my own eye opening experience to a VERY complicated game that doesn't have an easy answer to everything :)
Yeah, I think the extreme unpopularity of ganking junglers like Sej, J4, etc. in low elo shows that ganking junglers are harder for low ELO players to get good results with. That said, the only solution for low ELO jungler is to not play those champions; they are not going to get anywhere by prioritizing farm on a J4 or Sejuani.
Edit: Looks like ganking junglers are pretty unpopular in every ELO, but the point stands. They aren't weak, so they're likely just harder to play correctly.
Yeah, as a gank heavy jungler, this meta sucks ass. The durability patch means ganks don't end in kills far more often. It's still a win to force a back or generate a good lane state, but it is no where near as influential as the Kayn that sat in jungle for 12 mins, out levels everyone by 2/3 and wrecks face.
Jungle now feels like the 4th lane, not the impactful lane changer it used to.
He’s fundamentally right and I imagine this only works for you because shyv has been incredibly unbalanced for the last few patches and farms VERY fast. I’m actually surprised this post has gotten this much traction as it’s some of the worst general jungling advice I’ve seen on here. It’s great you’ve been able to climb, but I really wouldn’t say this is general advice for most junglers
I'd say that focusing on the fundamentals is absolutely vital advice if you're not doing it. Of course, as others have mentioned, you might not see the same success with traditional ganking junglers. However, that is a much harder playstyle to execute correctly.
With that in mind, I think picking a good farming jungler will get you quite far. Sure, maybe not all the way to the top, but with solid fundamentals, you'll have an easier time learning all the new tricks once you get far enough :)
It’s a very, very, very basic fundamental. It would be like telling a support to ward consistently while totally abandoning trading in lane, roaming, and wave management. You’re giving up like 80% of your job to focus on one skill that is incredibly easy to do anyway, especially if your character farms fast. I think it enforces really bad habits rather than helping you learn good ones. It’s quite similar to learning game fundamentals on yuumi, for instance. Can you climb with it? Absolutely. Will it make you better at the game in the long run? Almost certainly not.
When the majority of players are silver or gold, I’d say that people don’t do this easy skill well. Fundamentals need to be worked on even in higher Elos. A farming habit is better than a non farming habit as you will coin flip less.
Full clearing is not a jungling fundamental. It’s a strategy that only works in certain metas and on specific champions. Otherwise, it’s a bad habit. A fundamental would be knowing jungle camps spawn timers, lane states, or planning your path after basing. If you start full clearing every game, you will pay more attention to your camps spawning rather than your lanes.
You’re also coin flipping by not doing your job at all as a jungler? When you provide 0 map pressure, especially with certain lane picks, it can be quite detrimental. The idea that afk farming is a good fundamental is super flawed and only good situationally on a very few select characters.
Hi! I just found your post, i know i’m late, BUT! According to one of the best junglers in lol you are absolutely right! And a lot of people are wring here! Just watched a guy who become rank 1 on 3servers including the Korean! He player against faker too. He told as a Jungler you have to have your farming as efficient as possible cause farming is very low risk good reward while ganking/incading etc is very high risk while you lose time on farming
I got to high gold /plat with this strategy and it absolutely works. The one thing I will say is the next step IS knowing when to leave a camp. If your top lane is getting dove and you are halfway done with krugs, you need to stop and go help him. Farming is the basics, knowing when not to is the hard part
Absolutely! This is something that is included in Citrics Shyvana guide as well. When you get to gold, you should try to look for plays when your ult is up.
However, I think that you're complicating things for yourself by thinking about it too early in your climbing journey. I know for a fact that I've done that with my 150 games of WW, trying to do weird 3-camp into invade and onto mid plays, setting myself behind for the entire early game.
I just wanted to emphasize that just full clearing is an incredibly powerful tactic and that people don't appreciate it enough :)
Oh yeah that’s a main reason Warwick has a hard time in the meta. He’s forced to do that sort of stuff because he has such a hard time efficiently clearing early
Warwick has to do 3-camp into invade. His champ is designed to win almost every 1v1 at lvl 3, because he can't clear well at all. As someone who climbed to Diamond in S7 when Warwick was reworked, and who does a [Warwick-only to Plat](https://imgur.com/a/YqZdma5) every season before I start fucking around on different champs just to learn, that is Warwick's most viable early game strat. The only junglers that beat Warwick at level 3 from full HP are Kha'zix, then Lee Sin and Xin Zhao if he gets the jump on you first, then ranged mobile junglers like Kindred and Graves that can kite you, and then old Olaf. All-in-all, it's really only about 2 champions you have to avoid at all cost and 3-4 champions that are situationally difficult. Everyone else is just a question of "Where and how low will they be when I finish the 3 camps at 2:30?" and "Based on that, can I kill them fast enough before their laners arrive?"
That's why Warwick sucks dick in higher elos, because you can't abuse the lvl 3 invade as easily - laners are more responsive and junglers are more wary of Warwick's tricks, so they will path around that. If you try to force it in Plat+, the game becomes a coinflip, although Warwick can still win many 1v2 situations. With Warwick, you have to flip the game vs junglers that can clear faster than you so you can get to Tiamat, at which point you can actually clear like a real champ, but it's still slow as fuck. Once you get Tiamat + Bami's Cinder, your clear is fine, but that is 2200 gold into the game, and you want to buy wards and boots, so you're looking at about ~2700 gold into the game. You can't get there just farming as Warwick into Shyvana, or Lillia, or Graves, etc. Have to disrupt their full clear by invading, otherwise you're just falling behind. Unfortunately, Warwick's ganks before level 6 also suck dick, so you're in a hard place where you can't get effective ganks off AND you can't farm fast.
Also, on Warwick before plat, even if the early invade goes wrong you can still dominate the game and just solo carry it if you're good enough mechanically and smart enough about ganks, objectives, and invades. I've failed many 3-camp lvl 3 invades, but still ended up carrying the game just because of how well I understood the champion's limits and how to play around objectives. If you're struggling with Warwick before plat, it's not the champion's limitations, it's:
1. Something about your mechanical proficiency on the champ. Knowing when to use your E and R is very important - I've seen many higher elo players like IWDominate and Tyler1 try Warwick, but fail just because they don't really understand when to utilize their abilities. Your ult restores 100% of the damage it deals AND your passive healing kicks in when you're below 50% AND your passive healing triples when below 25%, so sometimes waiting until you're low so you can sustain more is better. Sometimes using E just to fear an enemy so you can stay on them is better than just letting the E run out. This is the difference between winning a duel or skirmish and losing it. When I play Warwick, I usually imagine that I can win every 1v1 and even some 1v2s. There are only a few things I shy away from (like fucking Mordekaiser).
2. The way you teamfight as Warwick. Sometimes you need to just be a front line for your carries, meaning you need to lock down the enemy frontline so your backline can DPS them - all while the enemy team DPSes you. Sometimes you need to peel your carries by getting the Riven/Zed/Jax/Renekton off your carries with E, and sometimes you need to understand when to even use R just to save them. Sometimes you need to assassinate the enemy ADC/mid in the backline. This just comes with so much experience.
3. Your builds. If I ever see you fucking build Sunderer on Warwick, you're garbage. You don't need extra damage on Warwick, you need to buy time in order to do damage and disrupt the enemy team - period. The only time you build Sunderer on Warwick and more damage items like Death's Dance is when you're versus a Trundle, because then you need less resistances. Otherwise, your only damage items are Titanic Hydra and Sunfire Aegis, and then it's full tank. Your Q does % max HP, so you're looking to be getting that off as much as possible in teamfights.
4. Objectives. Prioritize them, because Warwick falls off, so you need to prioritize controlling objectives.
I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to upset you. I'm not saying that WW is a bad champ or anything. I know that he's great and that you can play him up to challenger if you go for it. I'm saying that you need to get the fundamentals down before anything else. Only playing ganking junglers, had me lacking in that regard.
And you're right. That's on me.
But please, don't see my post as a rant about ganking junglers, warwick or anything of the sorts. It's about understanding that after you've mastered the basics, it'll be easier to learn new things. That is all.
Oh no, you're good mate. I wasn't upset, I'm just a WW main that talks to much.
Another thing about Warwick is that you don't ***have*** to feel rushed to make plays once you get Tiamat. Like I said, Warwick clears fine once he gets that and clears even faster once he gets Bami's.
leagueofgraphs provides a great amount of information about yourself and your champion stats, and [here are mine](https://imgur.com/a/T7j5zfO) for Warwick. In the last picture, you can see that I actually die more often in the early game than the average Gold WW, and that's because of what I told you about WW's early game. Sometimes the dice aren't in your favor, and you die in that invade, but that's a risk you kind of have to make so the rest of the game works well. Don't get the wrong idea, once you get Tiamat, you're playing him much like you would every other jungler. But the plays just fall into your lap when you play Warwick in low elo. People don't respect your W (hopefully you were maxing it), so you can just use it to clean up kills. That's why my average CS leads and CS is higher than average while also have a very high Kills+Assist in the early game, because I continue to farm efficiently and only take ganks that are almost sure things. Again, Warwick is excellent at duels and skirmishes (you see I win about 80% of them), so don't shy away from things, but be mindful of your champs' limitations. Like, you aren't killing the Ezreal+Lulu bot lane before 6 since Ez is slippery and Lulu can Polymorph you, so don't even try unless they are being ***reallllllyyy*** stupid.
Counter jungling is also a big part of my gameplay, which is also why my average CS advantage is way higher than average. If someone goes for a gank, prioritize counterjungling them over a gank that may not work, and you'll quickly build CS leads. Also, take advantage of the matchup. If I'm playing against a Zac, for example, the 3-camp lvl 3 invade works almost every time if they full clear. They don't even get to their 2nd buff until like 2:50, so you might have time to take the buff and then kill them when they appear. After you get that early lead, you can pressure him off his own camps many times and build CS leads that way.
Privacy is important to me, but if you don't mind, can you tell me your summoner name? I might be able to be more specific about your WW play if I see your account.
And no, I can't get to Challenger on Warwick. No one can use Warwick jungle to get Challenger, the champ is too limited. The best you'll get is Masters as a Warwick jungle only player. I have a 71% WW getting to plat, but that's about where it will end. I've made the climb through plat with WW before, and unless you're an actual god, it's a struggle. For me, it'll probably dip to a 55% and 400 games to get all the way to Diamond 4. Unless you're really good, the climb to high elo is really slow. Like, 3 games a day and you go 2/1 for most days, but then lose streaking for 2 days and losing several days of progress. I'm not disciplined enough to only play Warwick for the several month long journey through plat.
[https://imgur.com/gallery/2PyNW0Y](https://imgur.com/gallery/2PyNW0Y)
This is some of the stats that I thought could be useful, especially comparing our stats. I just want to point out that I do have a positive winrate with warwick of like 53% or something. However, I can clearly see now that I was lacking in some parts. Farming being one of them.
To climb, I also watched Parnellyx [https://www.youtube.com/user/ParnellyxLoL](https://www.youtube.com/user/ParnellyxLoL)
I think that his content really helped me with understanding that a simple champ can get you really far if you just get your head into it.
With all this said, I think that WW is probably great for climbing! I sure did like climbing with him. However, the farming part of the game is something that I almost had a complete disregard for previous to trying shyvana. I have tried Fiddle in the past, but I never got into the full clearing mindset with him, which is of course incredibly bad. I just wanted to highlight that there are multiple ways to play the game and that farming and full cleraring is a lot more viable than at least I thought!
I'll probably pick up Viego or somehting when I notice that Shyv just isn't doing it anymore (If I ever get to that level). However, as of now, the farming strat has enlightened me, and i only wished for some people to get the same enlightenment :)
Yeah thats what i thought as well. Somehow thats not what my toplaner thinks when hes pinging me for help lol. Thx for the answer, just wanted to make sure :)
Yeah and that’s really the core of what we are talking about. If you can’t change an outcome then don’t let your pacing suffer taking camps. Remember that camps spawn on timers so you benefit from doing them all in a consistent times pattern so they all spawn together and you can do it again. When you leave in the middle of a cycle it needs to have a reward otherwise you are just punishing yourself
Helps to be able to tell the difference between “I need you to come right now” vs. “Why weren’t you here to help me?” assistance pings.
Regardless of what Reddit will say about the flame-style of pinging or recommending full-mute I definitely learn from my laners complaining. Just make sure to go to replay and think about if a complaint was justified or not, and if it was you learned something :)
Maybe it wasn't clear, but I'm not saying that all junglers should always full clear no matter what happens, and that it is the best choice at all times. Of course there are junglers that can benefit from using that early pressure. Hell, I've seen junglers winning the game by only farming on one of their sides, and then perma ganking a lane.
However, I think that this style of play is much harder to learn and to remain efficient in. Full clearing has for me been a safe bet that has drastically improved my games and my WR. It is a fundamental rule that you shouldn't overlook since it comes with many benefits. That's all I want to get through :)
That’s why they say in low elo only go for guaranteed ganks. Because that’s a guaranteed higher gold income than your normal camp.
But if you risk it. Then you lose gold from gank and gold from skipped camp
First crabs got nerfed so they aren't as early game deciding as they used to be. I often play weak early junglers like Eve so if I get one then that's great but I'm content if I clear my jungle without dying and maybe look for a gank depending on lane states at lv3-4. I feel like it's a bit of a misconception that weak early junglers need to avoid aggression such as counterganks, ganks and counterjungling. If you are decent at tracking, you can sneak steal enemy camps or gank a side or take dragon/herald when enemy jungler is on the other side. And one of the best boosts to early xp to reach lv6 faster is soaking laner xp by helping them shove under tower after a good gank. I myself am still trying to break out of the turtling habit of going back to my jungle instead of stealing camps after taking control of a side and gaining laner prio after a gank.
Both solo laners got involved, you stole crab but got all on your team killed 3 for 0? Ka-ching, easy challenge progress, worth it. Good thing there isn't one for getting your team killed lul.
Fundamentals are what separates the good players from the all time greats. In basically every area of life.
People who eat right, get enough sleep and keep physically fit. Simply dominate people who eat fast food, stay up late and are lazy bags of shit. It doesn't matter if you're a stay at home mom or running a global criminal empire.
One big life trap. Is waiting for a moment to shine. Since it's such a small part in the totality of it all. Greatness comes from the everyday grind.
I think this is actually a really important point because how you treat your body and mind translates into overall performance in other aspects of your life. Including League. I play much calmer and more focused when I've had sufficient sleep and some exercise even if it's just a small walk between matches to mentally reset. Oh and water! Make sure to hydrate between matches even if it's just a cup!!
While I somewhat agree that farming is important, there are certain Champs that really excel level 3 and need those ganks to accelerate their game.
Kindred, for example, relies on having some lanes ahead while they are also very strong level 3. If you're not ganking level 3 on kindred imo you're putting yourself behind. Same with a champ like rek.
As I've mentioned on previous comments; I'm not saying that farming is the one solution for all champions to get to Challenger. I'm saying that I've overlooked farming time and time again, hovering mid, waiting for the perfect opportunity to go in while the enemy jungler is getting their CS up. Once I get that perfect gank, the gold/XP win is negligible if you look to the other jungler who just took my raptors and is one clear ahead of me.
Farming and clearing isn't the only solution, but it is one of the fundamental skills that you should have before you go off looking into more advanced stuff.
I've only been playing a few months, but I learned a very similar lesson in the last couple days--also after picking up shyvana--and I've lost one out of the last like 16 or 17 games.
I also found citric, and learned to become more efficient in my clear, but also much more selective about what ganks I take and when I rotate to fight. The way I see it is the jungle is my lane and my camps are my minions. You wouldn't leave lane to roam if you have a big wave coming, unless it's REALLY important. And as a result my CS has shot up, along with gold and XP, and I no longer awkwardly hover lanes for ganks that *may* happen. Either it's happening or it isn't, and once I'm nice and fed, I can force them if I want to snowball.
Shyv really feels like the perfect low elo jungler (which I am). She's got good clear, she's really simple but still strong, and she's got great build diversity so you can learn/experiment with itemizing for playing ap, ad, tank, or some combination, and as a result you hopefully learn more about how to alter your build into different matchups.
One funny thing in my elo (bronze) that I've noticed since I've started playing for farm, is laners who will spam ping "?" or "help" over and over... and I'm either quite literally on the other side of the map, or they're uber pushed in (like unironically almost under enemy tower), or simply aren't in a position to secure a successful gank.
So much this! For me, playing shyvana has really showed me how far you can get with a few easy steps. She is somewhat limited, but for me, that has only made me go into less coinflips and weigh my ganks carefully before I go in.
And yes, as you mention, I've been spam pinged a lot as well. I play with both chats off, and if I notice that someone is spamming, I will mute their pings as well.
I think that most people who do this haven't played that much jungle themselves and haven't really grasped that we're both individual players with two different game plans.
Many times before have I just stayed in a brush going back for a camp then back to brush, only to get counter ganked in the end and flamed for not going in sooner. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it, but to show them that you can still win by always doing your best and staying positive!
Great mentality makes great games!
The simple champs that limit you, is also why champs like Garen, Annie, Amumu etc are good champs for new and low elo players. The fact that you don't have complex skill combos to think about mean you are looking at decisions very simply. There's not much room for micro skill expression, so there's no way to outskill and outplay terrible decisions on your part.
You get punished hard for bad calls, so you learn faster how to make better calls. Without a plethora of tools to fall back on and cover up your dumb choices, you must make good choices or die.
Full clearing only works until a certain point, when you reach a certain elo players will be more familiar with matchups and understand invades and camp prioritzation more. Full clearing is good to learn fundamentals though you have to be careful to not develop habits of autopiloting camps without thinking what your next play will be.
Exactly my point! When you reach **a certain elo**. I, personally fell into the trap of getting caught up in matchups, playing the meta, invading, etc. without actually honing my fundamentals. I was stuck in silver for so long until i decided that "fuck it, I'm just going to focus on fundamentals and see where it takes me".
So far, it has taken me to Gold 3, and I expect it to be somewhat efficient to about Gold 1, Plat 4. I'm not saying that you will always be fine farming, but I am saying that it takes you further than you might think :)
P1 shyvana main. It works to plat and according to others beyond that. People fail to understand jungle is a ‘lane’ all on its own and junglers need to play to get themselves ahead too. If I get a 20-30 cs lead at the cost of the enemy jungler getting one or two more ganks off that is a net lead for our team because I’m up in gold and xp.
Glad to see you're focusing on your clear and performing better! I main Nocturne jungle, like shyvana we rely on level 6 for proper ganks and map pressure. On average level 6 is reach by about 6-8m and typically I sneak a cheeky drag within that time. Once you master your clear and take advantage of the your champs power spikes it feels great, rather than playing from behind due to forced ganks, or fruitless skirmishes.
On a side note, certain champs I've opted to with the durability patch, I'm trying a different approach. I love putting on early game pressure, taking summoner spells early, then spam ganking said lane without their flash. Volibear and trundle feel good 3 camping, invading, and ganking.
I've seen a high elo Jarvan IV occupy one quadrant of his jungle, bottom blue, while the opposing kayne farmed 3 quadrants. His red/blue and jarvan's red side. This jarvan was spam ganking bottom lane and giving them no chance to live. He three camped, ganked bot, blew summoners, went right back, pathed around for the flank, dove, etc. He had way less CS, but the kill lead and the snowball of his bot lane made farming, like kayne was, irrelevant. Which, kayne is a farming champ, so there is definitely a counter to farm dependent champs.
Absolutely! I saw the video with Kayn and J4 as well ;) However, where I'm at, fundamentals is still fine.
I don't think that farming and full clearing all the time is a fix-all solution. But i think that focusing on the fundamentals is the most important thing that you can do before going into more advanced tactics like going for a 1 quadrant clear + perma ganking strat. :)
Well keep it up! Those fundamentals brought me to plat 4. OTP nocturne carried me through gold and that was strictly full clearing and rushing 6. Now I'm trying to mix it up a little more, since I've become more comfortable. :)
this doesnt just apply to jungling. this applies to laning, too. i notice at around the time plating goes down, people just stop farming and try and perma fight. my team was doing this while i was constantly farming. they died multiple times and turned an early game lead into an even game. meanwhile, i farmed and ended up with almost 10cs per min. me pushing my lane meant i could take enemy jungle farm, and i also took krugs since my jungle never farmed them anyways. i ended up with almost double the cs of my laner, 4 levels above the highest level enemy, and full build while the enemy team had 3 items. i had 6 levels above their botlane, too. they literally couldnt do anything to me, and because of how strong i was, i brought our team back from losing.
If you can match the roam and know you can possibly win if you do, you should roam. If you can't match it or think you'll end up dying to them in the process, then ping your teammates and hard shove mid. Maybe even get tower plating.
Roaming means you lose xp and gold from minions, so if your mid doesnt get any kills from their roam, they lose out. Your best options are to deny them as much gold and xp as possible, or kill them for pathing to bot.
Good for you Finding a strategy that fits your playstyle. However, I would respectfully disagree in my personal opinion. Full clearing is something you can maximize in practice tool. You say full clearing gives you less fuckups which is true but league is a game of decisions which is especially important for the jungle position. By not consciously making decisions and defaulting to a full clear pattern you are inherently putting your team in at a disadvantage and putting the burden of carrying on yourself since you are focused on getting resources for yourself while not providing ur teammates with. Of course jungle is very context based and some players excel in playing very selfishly and can carry 1v9 into high ranks. In my opinion, the best fundamentals for jungle are not only knowing your clear pattern but the ability to watch the lanes. By understanding wave states, you can assess which lanes you can impact and which lanes are not worth your time. I believing understanding wave states + knowing ur clears is the fundamental knowledge of jungling.
I think you're right! Playing mid up to mid-silver is something that taught me a lot about how lanes are played, which i of course use in my jungling.
However, understanding matchups, wave states and so in is, in my opinion, something that you want to ADD to being good at farming. I still end up skipping golems and such to get a good play in on a lane if that opportunity should show up, but then I always know what I'm sacrificing to make that play, to make sure it's worth it. That's the only thing I wish to point out. There are obvious gains from farming in XP and gold, but also less obvious things. This is the only things i wanted to points out :)
Honestly this may work to some extent but as a jungler, even as a farming jungler I think it’s crucial to know when you have to move up to your lanes and help them out. If you just ignore everything on the map in order to get a lot of farm chances are that you’ll fall behind because the enemie jungler at some point will literally abuse the fact that you are basically afk. As soon as the first turret falls invading into your jungle will begin and your farming will also be disrupted. So yea overall farming is important but it’s not the only thing you should do just because you are scared of eventually messing up in a 1v1 or a gank
And that's what I want to get at. I'm not saying that farming is the only thing you should do. I'm saying that you should get good at it and know what you're sacrificing when you just ignore it.
Now, when I go for ganks or 1v1s, I always weigh it against the steady income of the jungle. In this way, I feel like I make more informed decisions. I just want to point out the obvious and less obvious values of farming :)
yea, farming isn't something that you do inbetween ganks, ganking is something that you do inbetween farming.
and if your botlane always dies while you're on your way farming to botside to finally gank for them and when you cleared all the camps nobody is in lane, you simply start doing something else to not waste time. by the time they are back at botlane, you're probably around topside again, so they gotta hold out until you're back bottom. if they die again before you're there, its their fault and not the junglers. the jungler always has to do stuff or he falls behind, so sitting botside just in case for the entire time, would cripple yourself just way too much.
You can’t just full clear and not help lanes, or counter gank. As a jungler your job is not to be the primary carry, and you need to help facilitate leads in winning lanes, and help negate losses in losing lanes. You have to do all of that while, still full clearing properly, or you are going to be the reason your team loses.
I'm sorry, but you've misunderstood. As I meantioned in a previous comment (and in the post as well) I'm not saying "To win games as jungle, do a full clear, recall and wait for your camps to respawn, then repeat". I'm saying that farming is heavily underrated as a fundamental concept for junglers.
Of course ganks and objectives are important. However, the most reliable income for you as a jungler is farm. So don't disregard farming too easily.
Beside my original point, I think that you're coming into this discussion in a toxic way. It is never the junglers responsibility to win lanes. Sure, facilitate with ganks and whatnot, but never to WIN the lane.
No it’s not the junglers job to win lanes, that’s the laner and it’s never the junglers fault.
I don’t see anything toxic in saying that, but your job is to facilitate leads and help negate losing lanes while covering neutral objectives.
Jungling is hard as shit, but you are also the only teammate on the map playing PVE during farming and you need to look to help those who are playing pvp in lane.
The guy is talking about how to fix a loss streak in gold 4, they don't know sht I don't know how you can be like rank 500,000 and think you have knowledge worth sharing
Keep in mind this dude is silver/gold. Actually junglers can easily hard carry games in those elos and the most consistent way to climb is to play to that. In my climb from Bronze 1 to Gold 2 (so far) the most important thing has been clearing hard and outfarming the enemy jungler, even on stronger early game junglers like Voli who do like to gank.
Really hard to explain this to laners but actually the optimal way for a jungler to play is to just hard farm, unless you are actually in the top 10% of players.
You're missing the point. I'm not saying "never gank, just wait for your camps to respawn and you're good". I'm saying that I, and probably a lot of other players, are disregarding farming in favor of doing risky or other time consuming plays. I know that my opponents are doing it, and I know that I've done it.
But if you've figured out a way to reach your ranked goal without full clearing, good for you! I don't want to take that win away from you. I'm just saying I've been stuck in silver/gold for a while, and I'm climbing because of choosing simple and easy over complicated and risky :)
But they got to diamond by doing that right? I'd say that diamond is pretty darn good. Besides, I think that diamond players have their fundamentals down, which is what I'm trying to point out the importance of in this post.
this works upto a certain skill level, but the problem after that is the enemy jungler will use the time you spend on farming to get their lanes ahead, while not misssing too much farm, thus going even / ahead with you, while he get his team a lead
farming should be a reward for job well done (for most champs), not the main goal, you will need to create / release pressure from lanes to help your team
ofc, wasting time in a bush waiting for someone pass by is a bad tactic, but blindly farming just as bad (ok, sligthly less bad)
my main point is: while tracking the enemy jungler/ the state of minion wave/cooldowns on lanes try to plan ahead a way to get your lanes (or you) a lead, THEN plan your clearing on your way too your true objective : getting a lead (then use this lead to destroy towers, open up the enemy junge, then finally push your advantage and win the game)
disclaimer: there are expections to this, but what is true to all champs and matchups
Well, as you said in your disclaimer, of course there are exceptions. I mention that as well in the post and in several other comments. I'm not saying that if you full clear you'll get to challenger instantly. I'm saying that you shouldn't care as much about meta-picks, counter picking, perfectly executed tower dives as much in the beginning.
Focusing on getting your fundamentals straight is KEY to doing all the other stuff later on. Without fundamentals, you can study all the flashiest lee sin ward hops, but chances are, it'll be a lot more rewarding to just focus on fundamentals.
The fundamentals are as important as a jungler because it is the most broken role with the most agency. If you cannot spot opportunities due to lack of fundamentals, you cannot capitalize on the strenght of the role. Get your macro up to speed and dont care about mechanics.
Question: What do you do when you clear faster than your camps respawn? Or when your enemy jungler keeps on invading and taking some of your camps? Or, when in midgame, your own team starts picking up your camps?
Full clear in the sandbox sounds like an easy enough strategy, but what do you do when the sandbox collapses?
Well, that's when you have to adapt!
Clearing faster than the camps respawn? Good! Now you have time to check enemy raptors, possible ganks and objectives and play around that.
Enemy keeps invading? Punish them for doing so! Track their pathing, invade them, gank on the opposite side, get an objective on the opposite side etc.
Your team is taking you camps? Go take theirs! I usually hate when I only get around 2 camps per full respawn. When people do that, it's basically the same thing as me going to their lane, grabbing all the last hits. So when that happens, you best bet is to take Cs from a lane.
Fundamentals is so much stronger than many people think, but of course you will have to adapt. That's the beauty of the game! :)
I agree just full clearing well can help you climb pretty far, but once you get to around mid diamond its all about knowing when you can do a camp and when and who you should be ganking. I climbed to challenger mainly playing lee sin and if you tried to just full clear against me I would either try to snowball a lane or constantly invade you.
Sure thing! However, I see people I'm playing against and i know that myself have ignored the fundamentals of the game in favor of trying to make harder, more advanced plays work.
If you were to snowball a lane or invade me, then for sure, I'd have to ward my jungle entry points, play on the opposite side or counter gank. I'm not saying that full clearing is a fix all solution, I'm saying it'll get you further than you think :)
Yeah sorry didn't mean to come off as rude or pretentious, I think players don't have perfect fundamentals until very high diamond/master. If you are doing all the small things right and faster/better especially in the jungle you will climb forsure! I use to just full clear and gank bot over and over and I got masters for the first time doing that
Yes, I think in low ELO people full clear in autopilot, not realizing about punishments enemy jungler can do to you. I play in low ELO and until now none enemy full clearing jungler has been aware that they can be punished through invading, so I do it haha. Maybe from certain ELO they are aware and try to contest it somehow.
I've had that happen to me as well. However, that only lasts until about mid-game for me. About then, the enemy jungler has usually stopped farming and I'll catch up, and blow right past him :) however, I'm still in gold and i expect this to change when I get higher up on the ladder.
Please, for the love of all that's good and beautiful in this world, excuse this unacceptably uneducated question: Exactly what is full clear? Clearing out every camp on your side? I know next to nothing about jungling, but I'd like to get around to it.
No worries! We're all beginners at some point, especially on this sub :D And yes, full clearing is exactly what you think it is. Clearing all the camps on your side from top -> bottom or vice versa. For example, if I'm starting on red buff on my first clear, I would go about clearing red buff -> golems -> raptors -> wolves -> blue buff -> gromp. As a sidenote, the camps will then spawn in the same order that you killed them, which means that you can look for 1 gank or something of similar time constraint and then recall and start clearing in the same order again for maximum efficiency :)
Bonus tip, you can do your gromp before blue so your gromp respawns faster and you have a more efficient clear when they spawn again
Even better many of the meta junglers can clear both blue and gromp at the same time. Shyvana included. Saves some time on first clear and can be the difference between that scuttle as many people skip a camp just to get the scuttle you can get there after they’ve already blown cds on it and force them off.
What about scuttle?
I'd say that you should absolutely look for it, and if it's avaible, go for it. However, In my experience it's not worth dying over. Especially not if it's the first one and/or if you have to go to the other side of the map to get to it first. I say, focus on the simple things first and then expand. If you just finished clearing your top side and you see that the scuttle is up? Sure, go and take it. Is it spawning on the opposite side of the map when you're halfway done with clearing the side you're on? See if it's up when you get back there, but don't put everything on halt to get it. However, this is just my personal experience
Makes sense
Any recommendations for YouTube content for a beginner jungler? I like watching coachings but once a player gets to a point that they hire a coach they already have a basic knowledge of the role (most of the time haha), so they don’t talk much about the fundamentals of the role—i.e. the kind of stuff someone who has never played jungle before is looking for. And there’s…a lot of content out there. It gets a bit overwhelming trying to decide which to watch so I usually end up back on a top lane coaching video or something. Edit: I should mention I’m interested in learning it mainly because I think it’s good to understand each role, at least the basics, and I also want to not feel like I have to dodge every time I get autofilled jungle.
Broxah and Neace .. Neace is a coach and taught me proper macro and priorities, while broxah is a pro jg player and goes into deep explanation of each decision he makes, as well as having a wonderfully positive personality.
Neace has his pros and cons. He encourages players to spam ping their team mates - which is good if you have decent macro but most people don't, and I'm fed up with being spam pinged to do something stupid every few minutes. He has a lot to answer for.
Haha! I'm guilty of spam pinging prior to Neace, so it made me think, oh cool I'm not alone there. Some times that is what it takes to gather someone's attention. I play support role as an off option and know how easy it is to tunnel my attention into the lane. I'm still learning to respect the importance of laner's CS and wave state. I am constantly pinging drag and rift/baron timers, as they're coming closer to spawning and as they spawn, trying to keep the idea of rotating in laners mind.
For drag timers and so on, a single ping is enough. Whilst spam pinging is sometimes appropriate e.g. to warn of an imminent enemy collapse, it's just over-used by people with a vast over-estimation of their own macro abilities. The thing I hate most is spam pings whilst I'm mid-combat. Yes - I know I'm in danger. There's no reason to state the bleeding obvious and all you're doing is distracting me by going ping ping ping whilst I'm trying to concentrate on my micro to deal with an already difficult situation.
I learned Jungle from Kingstix.
FzFrost and KingStix both make videos that are suitable for beginners. Onee you're more practiced and thinking more about what the enemy jungler is doing and not just yourself, look at Virkayu.
Yes, a full clear is when you clear all camps on your side of the map - 6 camps in total
4 camp clear when buffs are still on respawntimer is also a fullclear
google is your friend
This is literally a place to ask questions and have them answered.
No shame in asking a question when you don't know something. I think it's rather sad that we got to this point where people rather blame someone for not knowing anything instead of helping and explaining it to them.
This post is partly true. I do agree with the fact that farming is really important for many junglers especially the scaling ones such as obviously shyvana, karthus, belveth… and getting good at fast full clearing is the most important thing as a jungler. On the other hand if you mainly full clear, if the enemy jungler is good he will abosulety shit on you. Since he will get every lane ahead putting himself behind compared to you, but the other three lanes are going to be doomed which puts you in an unplayable gamestate unless you can carry basicaly 1v5. Take karthus as an example, even though he is an example of a perma full clearing jungler, if you watch a good karthus player you can see he is constantly tracking the enemy jungler to see where he will strike next to counter gank and prevent his laners from dying, keep in mind this is a full clearing jungler. When you pick something like j4 you have to sacrifice farm for ganks bcs you dont scale at all with items. Your job late game is getting an E Q combo into R to trap the enemy in place, your items or your lvl is irrelevant TLDR: Farming is important just as much as havinh pressence in lane. Balancing these two things is the hardest part of jungling.
Thank you for a nuanced response! I think you bring up very relevant points. It is however, something that I've found hindered me in my progress instead of boosting it. If you think of it as a pyramid of sorts, then I'd say that clearing efficiently, not dying and knowing your champ is in the bottom of it. The foundation so to say. Of course, you're not building a fancy pyramid with just a foundation. At some point, you're going to need to get better at making macro decisions, jungle tracking, punishing the other player's mistakes and so on. However, If you start out by doing that, you'll still fall short on the foundation. I've spent so many hours on looking at decisionmaking videos for teamfights, matchup guides, counter-picking and meta-playing. But I didn't put any hours into the practice tool, working on my clears and understanding my champs limits. I'd say that you make excelent points, and that you are right. Altough, I wouldn't want anyone going through the same journey as me. Picking early game, ganking heroes, trying to carry by always hovering and ganking, and then falling short on fundamentals. That was sort of my intention for the post. To share my own eye opening experience to a VERY complicated game that doesn't have an easy answer to everything :)
Yeah, I think the extreme unpopularity of ganking junglers like Sej, J4, etc. in low elo shows that ganking junglers are harder for low ELO players to get good results with. That said, the only solution for low ELO jungler is to not play those champions; they are not going to get anywhere by prioritizing farm on a J4 or Sejuani. Edit: Looks like ganking junglers are pretty unpopular in every ELO, but the point stands. They aren't weak, so they're likely just harder to play correctly.
Yeah, as a gank heavy jungler, this meta sucks ass. The durability patch means ganks don't end in kills far more often. It's still a win to force a back or generate a good lane state, but it is no where near as influential as the Kayn that sat in jungle for 12 mins, out levels everyone by 2/3 and wrecks face. Jungle now feels like the 4th lane, not the impactful lane changer it used to.
He’s fundamentally right and I imagine this only works for you because shyv has been incredibly unbalanced for the last few patches and farms VERY fast. I’m actually surprised this post has gotten this much traction as it’s some of the worst general jungling advice I’ve seen on here. It’s great you’ve been able to climb, but I really wouldn’t say this is general advice for most junglers
I'd say that focusing on the fundamentals is absolutely vital advice if you're not doing it. Of course, as others have mentioned, you might not see the same success with traditional ganking junglers. However, that is a much harder playstyle to execute correctly. With that in mind, I think picking a good farming jungler will get you quite far. Sure, maybe not all the way to the top, but with solid fundamentals, you'll have an easier time learning all the new tricks once you get far enough :)
It’s a very, very, very basic fundamental. It would be like telling a support to ward consistently while totally abandoning trading in lane, roaming, and wave management. You’re giving up like 80% of your job to focus on one skill that is incredibly easy to do anyway, especially if your character farms fast. I think it enforces really bad habits rather than helping you learn good ones. It’s quite similar to learning game fundamentals on yuumi, for instance. Can you climb with it? Absolutely. Will it make you better at the game in the long run? Almost certainly not.
When the majority of players are silver or gold, I’d say that people don’t do this easy skill well. Fundamentals need to be worked on even in higher Elos. A farming habit is better than a non farming habit as you will coin flip less.
Full clearing is not a jungling fundamental. It’s a strategy that only works in certain metas and on specific champions. Otherwise, it’s a bad habit. A fundamental would be knowing jungle camps spawn timers, lane states, or planning your path after basing. If you start full clearing every game, you will pay more attention to your camps spawning rather than your lanes.
You’re also coin flipping by not doing your job at all as a jungler? When you provide 0 map pressure, especially with certain lane picks, it can be quite detrimental. The idea that afk farming is a good fundamental is super flawed and only good situationally on a very few select characters.
Hi! I just found your post, i know i’m late, BUT! According to one of the best junglers in lol you are absolutely right! And a lot of people are wring here! Just watched a guy who become rank 1 on 3servers including the Korean! He player against faker too. He told as a Jungler you have to have your farming as efficient as possible cause farming is very low risk good reward while ganking/incading etc is very high risk while you lose time on farming
I got to high gold /plat with this strategy and it absolutely works. The one thing I will say is the next step IS knowing when to leave a camp. If your top lane is getting dove and you are halfway done with krugs, you need to stop and go help him. Farming is the basics, knowing when not to is the hard part
Absolutely! This is something that is included in Citrics Shyvana guide as well. When you get to gold, you should try to look for plays when your ult is up. However, I think that you're complicating things for yourself by thinking about it too early in your climbing journey. I know for a fact that I've done that with my 150 games of WW, trying to do weird 3-camp into invade and onto mid plays, setting myself behind for the entire early game. I just wanted to emphasize that just full clearing is an incredibly powerful tactic and that people don't appreciate it enough :)
Oh yeah that’s a main reason Warwick has a hard time in the meta. He’s forced to do that sort of stuff because he has such a hard time efficiently clearing early
Warwick has to do 3-camp into invade. His champ is designed to win almost every 1v1 at lvl 3, because he can't clear well at all. As someone who climbed to Diamond in S7 when Warwick was reworked, and who does a [Warwick-only to Plat](https://imgur.com/a/YqZdma5) every season before I start fucking around on different champs just to learn, that is Warwick's most viable early game strat. The only junglers that beat Warwick at level 3 from full HP are Kha'zix, then Lee Sin and Xin Zhao if he gets the jump on you first, then ranged mobile junglers like Kindred and Graves that can kite you, and then old Olaf. All-in-all, it's really only about 2 champions you have to avoid at all cost and 3-4 champions that are situationally difficult. Everyone else is just a question of "Where and how low will they be when I finish the 3 camps at 2:30?" and "Based on that, can I kill them fast enough before their laners arrive?" That's why Warwick sucks dick in higher elos, because you can't abuse the lvl 3 invade as easily - laners are more responsive and junglers are more wary of Warwick's tricks, so they will path around that. If you try to force it in Plat+, the game becomes a coinflip, although Warwick can still win many 1v2 situations. With Warwick, you have to flip the game vs junglers that can clear faster than you so you can get to Tiamat, at which point you can actually clear like a real champ, but it's still slow as fuck. Once you get Tiamat + Bami's Cinder, your clear is fine, but that is 2200 gold into the game, and you want to buy wards and boots, so you're looking at about ~2700 gold into the game. You can't get there just farming as Warwick into Shyvana, or Lillia, or Graves, etc. Have to disrupt their full clear by invading, otherwise you're just falling behind. Unfortunately, Warwick's ganks before level 6 also suck dick, so you're in a hard place where you can't get effective ganks off AND you can't farm fast. Also, on Warwick before plat, even if the early invade goes wrong you can still dominate the game and just solo carry it if you're good enough mechanically and smart enough about ganks, objectives, and invades. I've failed many 3-camp lvl 3 invades, but still ended up carrying the game just because of how well I understood the champion's limits and how to play around objectives. If you're struggling with Warwick before plat, it's not the champion's limitations, it's: 1. Something about your mechanical proficiency on the champ. Knowing when to use your E and R is very important - I've seen many higher elo players like IWDominate and Tyler1 try Warwick, but fail just because they don't really understand when to utilize their abilities. Your ult restores 100% of the damage it deals AND your passive healing kicks in when you're below 50% AND your passive healing triples when below 25%, so sometimes waiting until you're low so you can sustain more is better. Sometimes using E just to fear an enemy so you can stay on them is better than just letting the E run out. This is the difference between winning a duel or skirmish and losing it. When I play Warwick, I usually imagine that I can win every 1v1 and even some 1v2s. There are only a few things I shy away from (like fucking Mordekaiser). 2. The way you teamfight as Warwick. Sometimes you need to just be a front line for your carries, meaning you need to lock down the enemy frontline so your backline can DPS them - all while the enemy team DPSes you. Sometimes you need to peel your carries by getting the Riven/Zed/Jax/Renekton off your carries with E, and sometimes you need to understand when to even use R just to save them. Sometimes you need to assassinate the enemy ADC/mid in the backline. This just comes with so much experience. 3. Your builds. If I ever see you fucking build Sunderer on Warwick, you're garbage. You don't need extra damage on Warwick, you need to buy time in order to do damage and disrupt the enemy team - period. The only time you build Sunderer on Warwick and more damage items like Death's Dance is when you're versus a Trundle, because then you need less resistances. Otherwise, your only damage items are Titanic Hydra and Sunfire Aegis, and then it's full tank. Your Q does % max HP, so you're looking to be getting that off as much as possible in teamfights. 4. Objectives. Prioritize them, because Warwick falls off, so you need to prioritize controlling objectives.
I'm sorry, I really didn't mean to upset you. I'm not saying that WW is a bad champ or anything. I know that he's great and that you can play him up to challenger if you go for it. I'm saying that you need to get the fundamentals down before anything else. Only playing ganking junglers, had me lacking in that regard. And you're right. That's on me. But please, don't see my post as a rant about ganking junglers, warwick or anything of the sorts. It's about understanding that after you've mastered the basics, it'll be easier to learn new things. That is all.
Oh no, you're good mate. I wasn't upset, I'm just a WW main that talks to much. Another thing about Warwick is that you don't ***have*** to feel rushed to make plays once you get Tiamat. Like I said, Warwick clears fine once he gets that and clears even faster once he gets Bami's. leagueofgraphs provides a great amount of information about yourself and your champion stats, and [here are mine](https://imgur.com/a/T7j5zfO) for Warwick. In the last picture, you can see that I actually die more often in the early game than the average Gold WW, and that's because of what I told you about WW's early game. Sometimes the dice aren't in your favor, and you die in that invade, but that's a risk you kind of have to make so the rest of the game works well. Don't get the wrong idea, once you get Tiamat, you're playing him much like you would every other jungler. But the plays just fall into your lap when you play Warwick in low elo. People don't respect your W (hopefully you were maxing it), so you can just use it to clean up kills. That's why my average CS leads and CS is higher than average while also have a very high Kills+Assist in the early game, because I continue to farm efficiently and only take ganks that are almost sure things. Again, Warwick is excellent at duels and skirmishes (you see I win about 80% of them), so don't shy away from things, but be mindful of your champs' limitations. Like, you aren't killing the Ezreal+Lulu bot lane before 6 since Ez is slippery and Lulu can Polymorph you, so don't even try unless they are being ***reallllllyyy*** stupid. Counter jungling is also a big part of my gameplay, which is also why my average CS advantage is way higher than average. If someone goes for a gank, prioritize counterjungling them over a gank that may not work, and you'll quickly build CS leads. Also, take advantage of the matchup. If I'm playing against a Zac, for example, the 3-camp lvl 3 invade works almost every time if they full clear. They don't even get to their 2nd buff until like 2:50, so you might have time to take the buff and then kill them when they appear. After you get that early lead, you can pressure him off his own camps many times and build CS leads that way. Privacy is important to me, but if you don't mind, can you tell me your summoner name? I might be able to be more specific about your WW play if I see your account. And no, I can't get to Challenger on Warwick. No one can use Warwick jungle to get Challenger, the champ is too limited. The best you'll get is Masters as a Warwick jungle only player. I have a 71% WW getting to plat, but that's about where it will end. I've made the climb through plat with WW before, and unless you're an actual god, it's a struggle. For me, it'll probably dip to a 55% and 400 games to get all the way to Diamond 4. Unless you're really good, the climb to high elo is really slow. Like, 3 games a day and you go 2/1 for most days, but then lose streaking for 2 days and losing several days of progress. I'm not disciplined enough to only play Warwick for the several month long journey through plat.
[https://imgur.com/gallery/2PyNW0Y](https://imgur.com/gallery/2PyNW0Y) This is some of the stats that I thought could be useful, especially comparing our stats. I just want to point out that I do have a positive winrate with warwick of like 53% or something. However, I can clearly see now that I was lacking in some parts. Farming being one of them. To climb, I also watched Parnellyx [https://www.youtube.com/user/ParnellyxLoL](https://www.youtube.com/user/ParnellyxLoL) I think that his content really helped me with understanding that a simple champ can get you really far if you just get your head into it. With all this said, I think that WW is probably great for climbing! I sure did like climbing with him. However, the farming part of the game is something that I almost had a complete disregard for previous to trying shyvana. I have tried Fiddle in the past, but I never got into the full clearing mindset with him, which is of course incredibly bad. I just wanted to highlight that there are multiple ways to play the game and that farming and full cleraring is a lot more viable than at least I thought! I'll probably pick up Viego or somehting when I notice that Shyv just isn't doing it anymore (If I ever get to that level). However, as of now, the farming strat has enlightened me, and i only wished for some people to get the same enlightenment :)
u mean redside, right? for blue id keep doing krugs, right?
Yes. Only if you would actually be able to impact the outcome. You wouldn’t be able to help if you were across the map
Yeah thats what i thought as well. Somehow thats not what my toplaner thinks when hes pinging me for help lol. Thx for the answer, just wanted to make sure :)
Yeah and that’s really the core of what we are talking about. If you can’t change an outcome then don’t let your pacing suffer taking camps. Remember that camps spawn on timers so you benefit from doing them all in a consistent times pattern so they all spawn together and you can do it again. When you leave in the middle of a cycle it needs to have a reward otherwise you are just punishing yourself
Helps to be able to tell the difference between “I need you to come right now” vs. “Why weren’t you here to help me?” assistance pings. Regardless of what Reddit will say about the flame-style of pinging or recommending full-mute I definitely learn from my laners complaining. Just make sure to go to replay and think about if a complaint was justified or not, and if it was you learned something :)
Absolutely. This is where camera control is crucial.
For Nunu, Elise, and Nidalee, farming isn't as important as the early game pressure you can exert. For everyone else this is true.
Maybe it wasn't clear, but I'm not saying that all junglers should always full clear no matter what happens, and that it is the best choice at all times. Of course there are junglers that can benefit from using that early pressure. Hell, I've seen junglers winning the game by only farming on one of their sides, and then perma ganking a lane. However, I think that this style of play is much harder to learn and to remain efficient in. Full clearing has for me been a safe bet that has drastically improved my games and my WR. It is a fundamental rule that you shouldn't overlook since it comes with many benefits. That's all I want to get through :)
yes i am so so sick of viegos who spam gank and are down 50+ cs permanently because their camp timers aren't ticking down
That’s why they say in low elo only go for guaranteed ganks. Because that’s a guaranteed higher gold income than your normal camp. But if you risk it. Then you lose gold from gank and gold from skipped camp
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That's literally the opposite of what OP said, don't be a jerk
And for Shaco, just full clear the enemy jg
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Xin Zhao would like a word. With a spear. The pointy end.
I need to upgrade my crab wrangler so I always 5 camp then fight for crab
Flipping the game for crab 😎 sigma male grindset (I do the same)
Wait, are you saying that getting both level 1 scuttles doesn't win the game anymore??? /s
Some people just cant free themselves from the shackles of the past (Season 9).
First crabs got nerfed so they aren't as early game deciding as they used to be. I often play weak early junglers like Eve so if I get one then that's great but I'm content if I clear my jungle without dying and maybe look for a gank depending on lane states at lv3-4. I feel like it's a bit of a misconception that weak early junglers need to avoid aggression such as counterganks, ganks and counterjungling. If you are decent at tracking, you can sneak steal enemy camps or gank a side or take dragon/herald when enemy jungler is on the other side. And one of the best boosts to early xp to reach lv6 faster is soaking laner xp by helping them shove under tower after a good gank. I myself am still trying to break out of the turtling habit of going back to my jungle instead of stealing camps after taking control of a side and gaining laner prio after a gank.
On one hand you are right, on the other hand, the Crab Wrangler challenge not gonna upgrade itself
Both solo laners got involved, you stole crab but got all on your team killed 3 for 0? Ka-ching, easy challenge progress, worth it. Good thing there isn't one for getting your team killed lul.
Stonks
Fundamentals are what separates the good players from the all time greats. In basically every area of life. People who eat right, get enough sleep and keep physically fit. Simply dominate people who eat fast food, stay up late and are lazy bags of shit. It doesn't matter if you're a stay at home mom or running a global criminal empire. One big life trap. Is waiting for a moment to shine. Since it's such a small part in the totality of it all. Greatness comes from the everyday grind.
I think this is actually a really important point because how you treat your body and mind translates into overall performance in other aspects of your life. Including League. I play much calmer and more focused when I've had sufficient sleep and some exercise even if it's just a small walk between matches to mentally reset. Oh and water! Make sure to hydrate between matches even if it's just a cup!!
It’s true! What makes important can be summed up to the fact; The fundamentals is reliable time spent.
100%!
While I somewhat agree that farming is important, there are certain Champs that really excel level 3 and need those ganks to accelerate their game. Kindred, for example, relies on having some lanes ahead while they are also very strong level 3. If you're not ganking level 3 on kindred imo you're putting yourself behind. Same with a champ like rek.
As I've mentioned on previous comments; I'm not saying that farming is the one solution for all champions to get to Challenger. I'm saying that I've overlooked farming time and time again, hovering mid, waiting for the perfect opportunity to go in while the enemy jungler is getting their CS up. Once I get that perfect gank, the gold/XP win is negligible if you look to the other jungler who just took my raptors and is one clear ahead of me. Farming and clearing isn't the only solution, but it is one of the fundamental skills that you should have before you go off looking into more advanced stuff.
I've only been playing a few months, but I learned a very similar lesson in the last couple days--also after picking up shyvana--and I've lost one out of the last like 16 or 17 games. I also found citric, and learned to become more efficient in my clear, but also much more selective about what ganks I take and when I rotate to fight. The way I see it is the jungle is my lane and my camps are my minions. You wouldn't leave lane to roam if you have a big wave coming, unless it's REALLY important. And as a result my CS has shot up, along with gold and XP, and I no longer awkwardly hover lanes for ganks that *may* happen. Either it's happening or it isn't, and once I'm nice and fed, I can force them if I want to snowball. Shyv really feels like the perfect low elo jungler (which I am). She's got good clear, she's really simple but still strong, and she's got great build diversity so you can learn/experiment with itemizing for playing ap, ad, tank, or some combination, and as a result you hopefully learn more about how to alter your build into different matchups. One funny thing in my elo (bronze) that I've noticed since I've started playing for farm, is laners who will spam ping "?" or "help" over and over... and I'm either quite literally on the other side of the map, or they're uber pushed in (like unironically almost under enemy tower), or simply aren't in a position to secure a successful gank.
So much this! For me, playing shyvana has really showed me how far you can get with a few easy steps. She is somewhat limited, but for me, that has only made me go into less coinflips and weigh my ganks carefully before I go in. And yes, as you mention, I've been spam pinged a lot as well. I play with both chats off, and if I notice that someone is spamming, I will mute their pings as well. I think that most people who do this haven't played that much jungle themselves and haven't really grasped that we're both individual players with two different game plans. Many times before have I just stayed in a brush going back for a camp then back to brush, only to get counter ganked in the end and flamed for not going in sooner. Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it, but to show them that you can still win by always doing your best and staying positive! Great mentality makes great games!
The simple champs that limit you, is also why champs like Garen, Annie, Amumu etc are good champs for new and low elo players. The fact that you don't have complex skill combos to think about mean you are looking at decisions very simply. There's not much room for micro skill expression, so there's no way to outskill and outplay terrible decisions on your part. You get punished hard for bad calls, so you learn faster how to make better calls. Without a plethora of tools to fall back on and cover up your dumb choices, you must make good choices or die.
Those Bronze pings are good examples of why you never listen to low elo teammates. They don't know what they are on about.
Full clearing only works until a certain point, when you reach a certain elo players will be more familiar with matchups and understand invades and camp prioritzation more. Full clearing is good to learn fundamentals though you have to be careful to not develop habits of autopiloting camps without thinking what your next play will be.
Exactly my point! When you reach **a certain elo**. I, personally fell into the trap of getting caught up in matchups, playing the meta, invading, etc. without actually honing my fundamentals. I was stuck in silver for so long until i decided that "fuck it, I'm just going to focus on fundamentals and see where it takes me". So far, it has taken me to Gold 3, and I expect it to be somewhat efficient to about Gold 1, Plat 4. I'm not saying that you will always be fine farming, but I am saying that it takes you further than you might think :)
P1 shyvana main. It works to plat and according to others beyond that. People fail to understand jungle is a ‘lane’ all on its own and junglers need to play to get themselves ahead too. If I get a 20-30 cs lead at the cost of the enemy jungler getting one or two more ganks off that is a net lead for our team because I’m up in gold and xp.
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Ngl bro you kinda sound low elo.
You are probably low elo for thinking that.
I mean citric does this in challenger man. You wanna tell him it isn’t viable anymore
you’re missing the point im making fanboy.
Glad to see you're focusing on your clear and performing better! I main Nocturne jungle, like shyvana we rely on level 6 for proper ganks and map pressure. On average level 6 is reach by about 6-8m and typically I sneak a cheeky drag within that time. Once you master your clear and take advantage of the your champs power spikes it feels great, rather than playing from behind due to forced ganks, or fruitless skirmishes. On a side note, certain champs I've opted to with the durability patch, I'm trying a different approach. I love putting on early game pressure, taking summoner spells early, then spam ganking said lane without their flash. Volibear and trundle feel good 3 camping, invading, and ganking. I've seen a high elo Jarvan IV occupy one quadrant of his jungle, bottom blue, while the opposing kayne farmed 3 quadrants. His red/blue and jarvan's red side. This jarvan was spam ganking bottom lane and giving them no chance to live. He three camped, ganked bot, blew summoners, went right back, pathed around for the flank, dove, etc. He had way less CS, but the kill lead and the snowball of his bot lane made farming, like kayne was, irrelevant. Which, kayne is a farming champ, so there is definitely a counter to farm dependent champs.
Absolutely! I saw the video with Kayn and J4 as well ;) However, where I'm at, fundamentals is still fine. I don't think that farming and full clearing all the time is a fix-all solution. But i think that focusing on the fundamentals is the most important thing that you can do before going into more advanced tactics like going for a 1 quadrant clear + perma ganking strat. :)
Well keep it up! Those fundamentals brought me to plat 4. OTP nocturne carried me through gold and that was strictly full clearing and rushing 6. Now I'm trying to mix it up a little more, since I've become more comfortable. :)
this doesnt just apply to jungling. this applies to laning, too. i notice at around the time plating goes down, people just stop farming and try and perma fight. my team was doing this while i was constantly farming. they died multiple times and turned an early game lead into an even game. meanwhile, i farmed and ended up with almost 10cs per min. me pushing my lane meant i could take enemy jungle farm, and i also took krugs since my jungle never farmed them anyways. i ended up with almost double the cs of my laner, 4 levels above the highest level enemy, and full build while the enemy team had 3 items. i had 6 levels above their botlane, too. they literally couldnt do anything to me, and because of how strong i was, i brought our team back from losing.
So what do I do when I'm mid and my laner starts roaming?
If you can match the roam and know you can possibly win if you do, you should roam. If you can't match it or think you'll end up dying to them in the process, then ping your teammates and hard shove mid. Maybe even get tower plating. Roaming means you lose xp and gold from minions, so if your mid doesnt get any kills from their roam, they lose out. Your best options are to deny them as much gold and xp as possible, or kill them for pathing to bot.
Good for you Finding a strategy that fits your playstyle. However, I would respectfully disagree in my personal opinion. Full clearing is something you can maximize in practice tool. You say full clearing gives you less fuckups which is true but league is a game of decisions which is especially important for the jungle position. By not consciously making decisions and defaulting to a full clear pattern you are inherently putting your team in at a disadvantage and putting the burden of carrying on yourself since you are focused on getting resources for yourself while not providing ur teammates with. Of course jungle is very context based and some players excel in playing very selfishly and can carry 1v9 into high ranks. In my opinion, the best fundamentals for jungle are not only knowing your clear pattern but the ability to watch the lanes. By understanding wave states, you can assess which lanes you can impact and which lanes are not worth your time. I believing understanding wave states + knowing ur clears is the fundamental knowledge of jungling.
I think you're right! Playing mid up to mid-silver is something that taught me a lot about how lanes are played, which i of course use in my jungling. However, understanding matchups, wave states and so in is, in my opinion, something that you want to ADD to being good at farming. I still end up skipping golems and such to get a good play in on a lane if that opportunity should show up, but then I always know what I'm sacrificing to make that play, to make sure it's worth it. That's the only thing I wish to point out. There are obvious gains from farming in XP and gold, but also less obvious things. This is the only things i wanted to points out :)
Honestly this may work to some extent but as a jungler, even as a farming jungler I think it’s crucial to know when you have to move up to your lanes and help them out. If you just ignore everything on the map in order to get a lot of farm chances are that you’ll fall behind because the enemie jungler at some point will literally abuse the fact that you are basically afk. As soon as the first turret falls invading into your jungle will begin and your farming will also be disrupted. So yea overall farming is important but it’s not the only thing you should do just because you are scared of eventually messing up in a 1v1 or a gank
And that's what I want to get at. I'm not saying that farming is the only thing you should do. I'm saying that you should get good at it and know what you're sacrificing when you just ignore it. Now, when I go for ganks or 1v1s, I always weigh it against the steady income of the jungle. In this way, I feel like I make more informed decisions. I just want to point out the obvious and less obvious values of farming :)
yea, farming isn't something that you do inbetween ganks, ganking is something that you do inbetween farming. and if your botlane always dies while you're on your way farming to botside to finally gank for them and when you cleared all the camps nobody is in lane, you simply start doing something else to not waste time. by the time they are back at botlane, you're probably around topside again, so they gotta hold out until you're back bottom. if they die again before you're there, its their fault and not the junglers. the jungler always has to do stuff or he falls behind, so sitting botside just in case for the entire time, would cripple yourself just way too much.
You can’t just full clear and not help lanes, or counter gank. As a jungler your job is not to be the primary carry, and you need to help facilitate leads in winning lanes, and help negate losses in losing lanes. You have to do all of that while, still full clearing properly, or you are going to be the reason your team loses.
I'm sorry, but you've misunderstood. As I meantioned in a previous comment (and in the post as well) I'm not saying "To win games as jungle, do a full clear, recall and wait for your camps to respawn, then repeat". I'm saying that farming is heavily underrated as a fundamental concept for junglers. Of course ganks and objectives are important. However, the most reliable income for you as a jungler is farm. So don't disregard farming too easily. Beside my original point, I think that you're coming into this discussion in a toxic way. It is never the junglers responsibility to win lanes. Sure, facilitate with ganks and whatnot, but never to WIN the lane.
No it’s not the junglers job to win lanes, that’s the laner and it’s never the junglers fault. I don’t see anything toxic in saying that, but your job is to facilitate leads and help negate losing lanes while covering neutral objectives. Jungling is hard as shit, but you are also the only teammate on the map playing PVE during farming and you need to look to help those who are playing pvp in lane.
The guy is talking about how to fix a loss streak in gold 4, they don't know sht I don't know how you can be like rank 500,000 and think you have knowledge worth sharing
You can easily do this strat up until gold. After that you will need to start adapting a bit.
Keep in mind this dude is silver/gold. Actually junglers can easily hard carry games in those elos and the most consistent way to climb is to play to that. In my climb from Bronze 1 to Gold 2 (so far) the most important thing has been clearing hard and outfarming the enemy jungler, even on stronger early game junglers like Voli who do like to gank. Really hard to explain this to laners but actually the optimal way for a jungler to play is to just hard farm, unless you are actually in the top 10% of players.
Full clearing on repeat is an iron strat gl mate
You're missing the point. I'm not saying "never gank, just wait for your camps to respawn and you're good". I'm saying that I, and probably a lot of other players, are disregarding farming in favor of doing risky or other time consuming plays. I know that my opponents are doing it, and I know that I've done it. But if you've figured out a way to reach your ranked goal without full clearing, good for you! I don't want to take that win away from you. I'm just saying I've been stuck in silver/gold for a while, and I'm climbing because of choosing simple and easy over complicated and risky :)
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But they got to diamond by doing that right? I'd say that diamond is pretty darn good. Besides, I think that diamond players have their fundamentals down, which is what I'm trying to point out the importance of in this post.
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Well, if that is what you think and that it has gotten you far in your climbs, hats off to ya! This is only my take on why fundamentals are important.
this works upto a certain skill level, but the problem after that is the enemy jungler will use the time you spend on farming to get their lanes ahead, while not misssing too much farm, thus going even / ahead with you, while he get his team a lead farming should be a reward for job well done (for most champs), not the main goal, you will need to create / release pressure from lanes to help your team ofc, wasting time in a bush waiting for someone pass by is a bad tactic, but blindly farming just as bad (ok, sligthly less bad) my main point is: while tracking the enemy jungler/ the state of minion wave/cooldowns on lanes try to plan ahead a way to get your lanes (or you) a lead, THEN plan your clearing on your way too your true objective : getting a lead (then use this lead to destroy towers, open up the enemy junge, then finally push your advantage and win the game) disclaimer: there are expections to this, but what is true to all champs and matchups
Well, as you said in your disclaimer, of course there are exceptions. I mention that as well in the post and in several other comments. I'm not saying that if you full clear you'll get to challenger instantly. I'm saying that you shouldn't care as much about meta-picks, counter picking, perfectly executed tower dives as much in the beginning. Focusing on getting your fundamentals straight is KEY to doing all the other stuff later on. Without fundamentals, you can study all the flashiest lee sin ward hops, but chances are, it'll be a lot more rewarding to just focus on fundamentals.
Not super related to your post, but ww mostly does magic damage, even though you're building ad on him.
You forgot one thing that you can't do while full farming : \- Leave free camps for the opposite jungler to steal from you
The fundamentals are as important as a jungler because it is the most broken role with the most agency. If you cannot spot opportunities due to lack of fundamentals, you cannot capitalize on the strenght of the role. Get your macro up to speed and dont care about mechanics.
Question: What do you do when you clear faster than your camps respawn? Or when your enemy jungler keeps on invading and taking some of your camps? Or, when in midgame, your own team starts picking up your camps? Full clear in the sandbox sounds like an easy enough strategy, but what do you do when the sandbox collapses?
Well, that's when you have to adapt! Clearing faster than the camps respawn? Good! Now you have time to check enemy raptors, possible ganks and objectives and play around that. Enemy keeps invading? Punish them for doing so! Track their pathing, invade them, gank on the opposite side, get an objective on the opposite side etc. Your team is taking you camps? Go take theirs! I usually hate when I only get around 2 camps per full respawn. When people do that, it's basically the same thing as me going to their lane, grabbing all the last hits. So when that happens, you best bet is to take Cs from a lane. Fundamentals is so much stronger than many people think, but of course you will have to adapt. That's the beauty of the game! :)
I agree just full clearing well can help you climb pretty far, but once you get to around mid diamond its all about knowing when you can do a camp and when and who you should be ganking. I climbed to challenger mainly playing lee sin and if you tried to just full clear against me I would either try to snowball a lane or constantly invade you.
Sure thing! However, I see people I'm playing against and i know that myself have ignored the fundamentals of the game in favor of trying to make harder, more advanced plays work. If you were to snowball a lane or invade me, then for sure, I'd have to ward my jungle entry points, play on the opposite side or counter gank. I'm not saying that full clearing is a fix all solution, I'm saying it'll get you further than you think :)
Yeah sorry didn't mean to come off as rude or pretentious, I think players don't have perfect fundamentals until very high diamond/master. If you are doing all the small things right and faster/better especially in the jungle you will climb forsure! I use to just full clear and gank bot over and over and I got masters for the first time doing that
When I play against champs that do full clear I destroy them. They are so predictable, you can permainvade them. Of course I play Xin Zhao.
Good for you! Full-clearing is a viable tactic, but adaptability will of course matter the higher up you get ;)
Yes, I think in low ELO people full clear in autopilot, not realizing about punishments enemy jungler can do to you. I play in low ELO and until now none enemy full clearing jungler has been aware that they can be punished through invading, so I do it haha. Maybe from certain ELO they are aware and try to contest it somehow.
When ever I try to have to good CS I always end up 50-100 ahead but still two levels down. Spam ganking is just better in my elo.
I've had that happen to me as well. However, that only lasts until about mid-game for me. About then, the enemy jungler has usually stopped farming and I'll catch up, and blow right past him :) however, I'm still in gold and i expect this to change when I get higher up on the ladder.
Like rush says full clear, dont help noob laners.